God Cannot be Seen Jesus was (1)
May 1st, 2007 by AlexH
1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Jesus himself stated:
John 5:37
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Note:
In the Old Testament those who are described as having ‘seen’ God had in fact seen the ‘Angel of Yahweh’. God himself declared:’Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live’ (Exodus 33:20).
- It was in this form that God appeared to Manoah (Judges 13.19-23)
- Also Moses and the elders of Israel who ‘saw’ God (Exodus 24.9-11 & Exodus 33.18-23)
- It was the angel of Yahweh that wrestled with Jacob (Genesis 32.24-30) and shared a meal with Abraham (Genesis 18.1-8)
Notice also that Jesus added to the fact that God was invisible, stating that he is also inaudible:
John 5:37
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
So how can they have heard his voice giving the 10 commandments?
Exodus 20:1-2
1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
Deacon Stephen explains:
Acts 7:38
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Once more, it was the angel of Yahweh. So if Jesus was both seen and heard. How can he be God? The man Christ Jesus is the means by which the God who cannot be seen chooses to reveal himself, to man by man.
This was both the plan of God and Israel’s request when the glory of God appeared on Mount Sinai.
Exodus 20:18-19
And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
In response, God promised them:
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
So Moses was a type of the prophet who was to come. He was a symbol of what Christ would be. Moses was absolutely human, yet both walked in the power of God and brought Israel the word and law of God:
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Moses and Jesus have much in common, for example:
- In both cases their birth was opposed by the ruler of the day, resulting in a massacre of infants.
- Both were lawgivers and saviours of their people.
- Both were rejected by the Israel the first time they came to deliver them
- Christ will come back the second time in the power of God and his judgement, just as Moses did on his return to Egypt.
- Both fasted for 40 days and nights (Moses did this twice)
Not only that, but both performed a great number of miracles and wonders, many of which were similar:
- Moses turned water into blood,
- Jesus turned water into wine
- Moses miraculously fed Israel with Mannah in the wilderness,
- Jesus miraculously fed the 5,000 in the wilderness
- Moses parted the waters of the Red Sea
- Jesus commanded the storm to be still and walked on the waters of the sea of Galilee
When Moses went up Mount Sinai the second time in order to receive some replacement stone tablets for the ones he broke, he asked God:
“I beseech thee, shew me thy glory” (Exodus 33:18). After the glory of God had passed before Moses, the Bible tells us that his face also shone.
Exodus 34:29-30
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses’ hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. 30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
This glory upon Moses did not mean that he was the source of the glory. What the Israelites saw, indeed what frightened them so much that Moses had to wear a veil over his face, was the reflection of God’s glory. The face of Moses became a mirror for the glory of God and shone in the same way as the moon does when it reflects the light of the sun. So Jesus, the prophet like Moses, also ascended a mountain and shone with the glory of God:
Matthew 17:1-2
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Alex That was wonderful Thanks
Thanks for the encouragement, Patty.
btw, Alex, when are you going to more podcasts? I thoroughly enjoyed the one on Matthew.
http://godfellas.org/go/pages/articles/the-kingdom-of-god.php
Sean
Thanks for the encouragement. I’ve got a couple of things in the pipeline.
The most recent audio I’ve dropped is a phone-in I did with a local moody radio station. Just an example of discussion, which I thought was good because of the tone which they took with me.
God bless
Alex
Besides the Lord Jesus no man hath ever seen the Father (John 6:46) but God in fact was seen (Exodus 24:10, 11).
Another example of a multi-Personal (not Unitarian) God.
Marc
How does this help your case for Jesus being God? They saw God not Jesus so what’s your point?
Also, your contradicting God when He Himself said to Moses “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” Ex 33.19
God is “seen” in the OT via theophanies as well.
God can manifest Himself in away whereas people can see Him and live….you ignored Exodus 24:10, 11 where this is exactly the case.
Unitarians are at a total loss here. The Father was NEVER seen but they “saw God”.
Marc
Your at a loss to explain how God is seemingly, according to you, contradicting Himself and confusing us.
Xavier,
Already explained it in post #7.
Too bad you say God was not seen when the text says they “saw God”.
Marc
Your Modalist/manifestation “explanation” does not do justice to the text. God is either lying to you and I, OR there is another possiblity which you’re not willing to explore.
Xavier,
Another possibility?
Yeah….they saw “God” and it wasn’t the Father.
There goes your false Unitarian “god”.
Marc
If by that you mean the God and Father of the lord Messiah Jesus, your on your own buddy. :/
Thanks for explaing how they saw God and it wasn’t the Father
Marc
“Jesus lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, ‘Father…this is eternal life to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the Only true and real God…’” John 17.1, 3 [AB]
“For us [Christians] there is [only] One God, the Father, Who is the Source of all things and for Whom we [have life]…” 1Cor 8.6 [AB]
Like I said your on your own.
Thanks for citing two passages that don’t relate to the subject at hand.
Typical Unitarian tactic.
Marc
Yes, the “unitarian tactic” is the Bible’s presupposition of the Father as the only one Who is truly God.
…despite the evidence from the Bible thats say otherwise.
What do Unitarians do with that evidence? Hey since they can’t refute it just ignore it
Marc
Okay let’s say they saw “God the Son”, but you still have not properly dealt with the fact that scripture is clear when it says “NO ONE has ever seen God” [Jn 1.18]. Your still stuck.
Xavier,
Not stuck at all.
Exodus 24:10 and 11 teach that God was seen.
John 1:18 tells us that no one has seen God.
Theos (God) primarily (not exclusively) refers to the Father.
No mere man/woman has seen the Father.
Since God was seen it wasn’t the Father they saw in Exodus.
Hello multi-Personal God!
Marc
God is the Father, Son & HS right? Their all God. Whichever of the Persons you want to use their still God and God cannot be seen by men/women.
Check & mate!
Ignore/Deny Exodus 24:10, 11…..as expected
Marc
Okay, so according to you they didn’t see God the Father but they saw God the Son. They still saw God right?
Tha fact remains, that according to other scripture like Ex 33:20 [“man shall not see me and live"] the “seeing” in Ex 24.10-11 must be something different, perhaps a partial “seeing”, as opposed to a full and complete, vision of God. Jesus confirms this when in one of his beatitudes he says…
Why would “God the Son” say that if people all over the place “saw him” in the OT?
So it seems that one of the things God’s reedemed/sanctified people will be able to do in the age to come, when the resurrection transforms our lowly human bodies, “conforming it to the image of His Son’s” [Rom 8.29], is literally see God’s face [Rev 22.4].
Great points, Xavier.
Joseph
The beauty about all this, although taxing, is that we ask people not just to believe us but to check it out for themseleves!
Because, at the end of the day, we are able to do nothing against what is true, but only for it.2Cor 13.8
Xavier,
Because God only revealed Himself like that to a select few in the OT.
Marc
Like “God the Son” you mean? Still God is it not?
So whenever a trinitarian reads the word ‘God’ in the Bible, they have to know how to interpret that. It can be:
a) the entire godhead, or
b) a specific member of the godhead
In the case of ‘b’, the verse is not explicit about which member it is talking about so we have to discern that for ourselves (or rather, rely on those who are much more learned to interpret it for us).
This, to me, creates ptolemaic orbits. Just like with the earth centered view of the universe, the trinity creates odd complexity and makes God out to be confusing, a parser of words, and a legalist.
I will say that one side effect of this whole trinity doctrine for me (and my wife has said so as well) is it has caused me to read the Bible to a depth I would not have done otherwise. That, I have to speculate, is a key reason why God would let this doctrine (and other difficult doctrines like election) continue.
Antioch
Interesting point. It also comes down to God’s patience because He desires all humans to be saved. YHWH God asks of us…
Antioch,
The Bible teaches that the Christian has one Lord of all lords in heaven.
To whom does this singular Lord of all lords refer to?
Marc
According to Ps 110.1 there are 2 Lords not 3. So if anything, you sound like a Binitarian.
The first “Lord” is singular in the Lord of Lords.
I am asking who is the SINGULAR Lord of all other lords in heaven.
Marc
The first is the LORD God, the second the human lord Messiah. Who in turn has been MADE “the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth” [Ps 89.27]. Thus, the title “Lord of lords and King of kings” in the sense of all other earthly lords.
Marc
Does God have a God?
The TDNT refers to this as Christ’s “divine equality” with God (TDNT 5:273, onoma – Bietenhard) and Thayer cites both Revelation 19:16 and Deuteronomy 10:17 saying it refers to the “Supreme Lord” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, kurios, page 366). Supreme means “highest in rank or authority” (Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, supreme, page 1430). Therefore Christ is the “highest” Lord of heaven – neither make the disticntion between heavena nd earth as you do). The NIDNTT informs us that God “is the highest (Mk. 5:7; Lk. 1:32; Acts 7:48; 16:17; Heb. 7:1), the great king (Matt. 5:35), the king of the nations (Rev. 15:3)” (2:74, God – J.Schneider). This teaches us that God’s authority is absolute. The same would apply to Christ -“As God, Jesus exercises the divine authority, and he is head over every authority” (Col. 2:10) (Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Authority, page 47).
——————
The answer to your question is “no” -> there is only one true eternal Triune God.
Marc
Okay can you please explain to me why Jesus says this…
Xavier,
Because there are multiple Persons within the one Triune God. Anyone of them can refer to other as “God”..just like the Father does to the Son in Hebrews 1:8.
Xavier,
Is the Lord Jesus the Lord of lords in heaven?
Marc
The point is that the Son calls the Father “MY GOD” not just “God”. So if Jesus is God how can he say he has a God?
Marc
If your suggesting that by that title Jesus is God, are you saying that he is Lord of the LORD God? Hence, “Lord of all lords, including the LORD God”?
Xavier,
You see a distinction when there isn’t any. The Father refers to the Son as “God”…whose God? The Father’s God.
–
You didn’t answer my question from post #37. Please try again.
What does the TDNT say?
In His DIVINE EQUALITY (5:273, onoma – Bietenhard) –> Emphasis mine.
Marc
So God has a God?
I don’t understand what exactly you want me to answer. The divine equality thing? How can they be “divinely equal” if God has a God?
Xavier,
They are all the one God.
Marc
And they each have a God? Is that what your doctrine of the Trinity says?
They each have each other which comprises the one God.
Marc
If you say you have a God, that means you are less than the personage you call God. And Jesus time and time again calls on someone saying “My God”. Who he in turn refers to as “the Father” Who is “the only true God”.
Does this Father talk about “my God”? Does the HS?
The Father called Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8.
When the Father calls Jesus God here whose God is it? The Father’s.
Marc
YHWH calls Moses God TWICE in Ex 4.16; 7.1, is Moses’ YHWH’s God?
Just goes to prove your use of “God” spoken by the Son to the Father is a meaningless argument.
Since the Bible is inspired by God why does God let us know that the Lord Jesus is the Christians only Master in heaven when the Father is also the Christian’s Master in heaven?
Marc
Just as there are 2 Lords, according to Ps 110.1, there are 2 Masters. But that does not mean their both God. Especially since that 2nd “lord” is a human being.
Back to the point…Jesus talks about “MY God” and not just “God”. There is a big difference between these 2 terms. If you have a God that means you are not God!
Perhaps I am not explaining myself, is anyone else having difficulty understanding me? Maybe it is my fault. Just seeking verification.
The text reads “only Master”.
If you have a God that means you are not God? Why not since it is a multi-Personal God?
Marc
Are you sure your a trini?
Thanks for post 22, Xavier. Excellent points.
No Unitarian has a valid response to how the Christian has only one Master in heaven when the Bible informs us that it can refer to the Father (Acts 4:24) and to the Lord Jesus (2 Peter 2:1).
An excellent point would be if a Unitarian could offer something instead of a lot of hot air.
Marc
How about the fact that just as we have 2 Masters we have 2 Lords. One being the LORD God and the other His miraculously created human Son, the lord Messiah.
Are you willing to concede what Ps 110.1 has to say concerning these 2 figures?
When adoni (“my lord”), a royal title (1 Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the Deity title YHWH [ADONAI], which is NEVER used in reference to any other figure than the One God of Israel!
Won’t work. Jude 1:4 reads our “only Master” (despotes).
The Christian has only one Master (despotes) in heaven.
————————-
Your other point is discused here:
http://kingdomready.org/blog/2010/08/19/20-reasons-why-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-is-unbiblical-5/
Marc
Joseph had a “master” called Potiphar [Gen 39], and Philemon was a “slave MASTER” to Onesiamus, a Christian! So how many Masters did they have?
I wrote in heaven.
Marc
Where does Ps 110.1 take place?
In heaven…the same place where the Christian’s only Master is.
Marc
So you only see 1 Lord where the Ps 110.1 text clearly has 2 Lords? One being “the LORD” [YHWH] God and the second a human being whom David calls “my lord” [adoni].
Marc,
You said:
This is an inappropriate comment. Please do not belittle others in order to make your point. The biblical requirement for defending the faith is to do so with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3.15). Please adjust your tone accordingly.
You’re not answering who your only Master in heaven is.
Marc
We have 2 Masters just as we have 2 Lords in heaven. The ultimate Master being the God & Father of Messiah Jesus.
By the way, where is your third Master figure in heaven, the HS?
The ultimate Master?
The same Greek word is used for Master (despotees) and it applies to the Father and to the Son.
Please supply the Greek word for “the ultimate Master” that applies to the Father.
———–
The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is God and thus He is our Master (despotees) in heaven.
Marc
Just because the same words are used to describe more than one person does not mean their one and the same.
Where does it say the HS is Master in heaven?
True but when it says “only” concerning the same time and sphere then it does.
Again there is more than one way to express a truth claim. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is omniscient and an omnisicent Being is by definition “God”.
Marc
You mean when Jesus says that the Father is the ONLY One Who is truly God [Jn 17. 1,3]?
Yes in comparison to false gods….for that is how it is always used in Scripture.
I previously cited several lexicons to back up my position. See post #35
http://kingdomready.org/blog/2010/08/12/20-reasons-why-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-is-unbiblical-4/#comment-88653
Where are yours?
Marc
But when it says “the ONLY true God”, why is it not used in the same way as your suggesting for the word Master? What makes it any different when, if anything, “only” there is reinforced with “true”?
Same with Jesus’ other saying at John 5.44 ["the one and ONLY God"] and Paul in 1Cor 8.4-6 where this same figure of “the Father” is described as “the one God”, in comparison to other gods.
I asked you where your lexicons are. You didn’t supply any. Do you have ANY sources to back up your assertion?
Marc
Why would I need a dictionary to tell me what the word “only” in reference to Who the “only true God” is?
Your using “only” in the absolute sense ONLY [pardon the pun] when it suits you it seems. Nowhere in the context of Jn 17 is it even inferred that “other gods” are in view. Jesus is in deep, solemn prayer to someone he calls time and time again his God & Father, i.e., your Father and my Father, your God and our God [Jn 20.17].
“Now if you want to change the meaning of simple words…that is another thing”
http://kingdomready.org/blog/2009/03/01/who-ya-gonna-call/
Post #13
Ok thank you for making up your own meanings for words.
Done here.
Marc
So when you read “only Master” it is meant in the absolute sense but it is wrong to say that of the phrase “the only One Who is truly God”?
CORRECTION:
…but it is wrong to suggest that when it comes to the phrase “the only One Who is truly God”?