The False View of Hell – Part 2
May 18th, 2008 by Ron S.
This week I’m continuing my little paper – “The False View of Hell”. My goal with this piece is to try and show to both our Christian and non-Christian visitors, that the typical, predominant view that good people go to “Heaven” and bad people (or people just not believing in Jesus – a.k.a. “becoming a Christian”) go the “Hell” when they die, is NOT what the Bible actually says. Such a belief can only be seen in the bible when the presuppositions of that idea are read into certain Bible passages. And even then, they come into direct conflict with other parts of Scripture that point to different “afterlife” views. However, if (as I mentioned in Part 1) one looks at Scripture as a whole and doesn’t read Plato’s dualistic concepts into the Hebrew texts, it can be seen that man doesn’t automatically continue to live on past death in the “good place” or the “bad place”. Let’s dig deeper into this here in Part 2!
The False View of Hell
by Ron Shockley
Part 2: Man was designed a mortal creature – not an immortal one
Scripture at the very beginning shows that man was made a mortal creature that had the possibility to achieve immortality, not one that was made immortal to automatically survive death in a different state of existence. Looking at the earliest records in Genesis we see God creating man out of the dust of the ground and breathing life into him to make him a “living soul” (Gen. 2:7) – not giving him an immortal soul to make him equal to God in the ability to have a perpetual continual existence. The importance of seeing the simple truth of this should not be over looked. I love what Greg Deuble says about this in his excellent book; “They Never Told Me This in Church” (pg. 279):
“As this is the very first Bible verse containing the word “soul” as applied to man, its importance cannot be overstated. Notice that it does not say that man has a soul. Also it does not say that God gave man a soul. Rather it says: Man is a soul. It is the unique combination of the body and the breath of life which makes man a “living soul.” Any notion that man is made up of body and soul is ruled out. God did not put something of His immortal Self into man so that man became divine. Man is not part of God, not divine by nature. He is a living creature because God put into his nostrils the breath of life; that is God animated him. Genesis 2:7 tells us that man came from the red soil of the earth. He is an earth-being, not a spirit-being from a distant star as Plato taught, nor a spark from the bottom of the pond as evolution teaches. His life force is direct from God, a sacred gift. Man is not a spirit being enjoying a human experience. Man is a human being on a spiritual journey.”
Proof of this can be seen just a chapter later in Genesis 3 where once Adam & Eve have sinned and are being kicked out of the Garden of Eden, God directly says “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” (Gen 3:22). Then God stationed an angel with a flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen 3:24). This shows very clearly that man did not possess immortality since it was the “Tree of Life” that man needed to live forever (hence the need for a guard). This would all be nonsensical if it was just preventing a “body” from living forever. This important detail is further backed up later in 1 Timothy 6:16 where about God it says that He “alone possesses immortality…”. If language has any meaning, the term “alone” leaves out the possibility of all others naturally having it.
The penalty of sin is death not an immortal existence
If the penalty for disobeying God was to suffer an eternal condition of punishment, shouldn’t that have been clearly spelled out there in the very beginning in Genesis? Shouldn’t God have simply said that disobedience would lead to punishment that would go on and on for all eternity? But nothing of the sort is there. God simply told Adam and Eve to not do one thing (eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) and that if they did they would “surely die”. And after they disobeyed and did that one thing, God plainly told them that they would “return to the ground, because out of it you were taken; For you are dust and to dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:19). God only indicated that the penalty was the opposite of life – death. It was the serpent that spun the lie of “you surely shall not die” – sounding just like the never ending existence past our physical deaths that people have believed ever since that day.
Yet the Bible unambiguously says that “the wages of sin is death” (Rom 6:23) and that “the soul that sinneth, it shall die” Eze 18:20). If eternal torture were true, wouldn’t the wages of sin be that? Why does it just say death? And more importantly, how can a soul be immortal in nature and yet die? And what about Jesus the Messiah? If he died for the sins of all mankind – if he took the penalty for our “wages of sin”, and that penalty of sin against God was eternal torment, then why is Jesus not still in hell being tormented for all eternity in our place? Of course simple logic should dictate that death is indeed the only required penalty for sin as Scripture says. And quite clearly Jesus certainly endured that punishment – though he didn’t deserve it being an innocent, sinless man.
Death brings about complete non-existence
The well-known saying goes that there are only two things certain in life – “Death and Taxes”. It is also certainly known that death is the polar opposite of life. Death is the complete and utter cessation of every quality of being alive. This is plainly evident from everything we encounter in the human experience and everything we have observed in the world around us. And the Bible tells us the exact same thing. Scripture never says that the dead go on living in some other unseen plain of existence. No, the simple truth is that death ends ALL we really are and all we ever were. For example, Job the Old Testament’s supreme, faithful sufferer laments over man’s extremely fleeting time of being alive in Chapter 14:
“Man, who is born of woman is short-lived and full of turmoil, Like a flower he comes forth and withers, He flees like a shadow and does not remain” (ver. 1-2).
Then in verses 10-12 Job says:
“But man dies and lies prostrate. Man expires, and where is he? As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise, Until the heavens be no more, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.” (Job 14:1-2)
Later, King David (one of God’s most loved servants) in his Psalms describes death plainly in absolute, non-existent terms with verses such as:
- “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” (Ps. 6:5).
- “What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?” (Ps. 30:9).
- “Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy loving kindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?” (Ps. 88:10-12).
- “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence” (Ps. 115:17). “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish” (Ps. 146:4).
And one of the greatest thinkers of the Bible – King Solomon, wrote probably the most clear and straightforward truth regarding the condition of the dead in these three writings in Ecclesiastes:
- “For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of the beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.” (Eccl. 3:19-20)
- “But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.” (Eccl. 9:4-6).
- “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.” (Eccl. 9:10).
The truth of these verses can not be side-stepped or wished away by those looking to hold-on to the traditional view that man is an immortal creature that instantly moves on to another plain of existence once he “passes away”. There is NO “passing on” or going anywhere but to become “worm food” in the grave. The “DEAD KNOW NOTHING”. We do not exist any more. The organic “earth” elements that God designed mankind out of, is exactly what we turn back into. When that “breath of life” – that God gave Adam and has been passed down generation to generation each time sperm fertilizes egg – leaves us at death, we are nothing but a rotting corpse that turns to goo and eventually in time becomes “dust”. The EXACT thing that God promised in Gen. 3:19!
But is that it? Is death really the end of us? Well fortunately that is not the absolute “end of the line” according to Scripture. Let’s go back to Job the famous sufferer in the same Chapter 14 and notice that Job asks the age-old question that mankind has always asked (and still asks) – “If a man dies, will he live again?” (Job 14:14). Is there anything else past death? Well notice a VERY INTERESTING thing Job says next – “All the days of my struggle I will wait, until my change comes.” Waiting? A change?? What is he talking about?
We’ll cover that next in Part 3. But I’ll leave a hint with another OT verse from Daniel:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2)
Excellent post, Ron. Thanks for doing this series; it is much needed. The doctrine of eternal torment is morally repulsive. But, even so, to demonstrate that it is unbiblical really helps to seal the deal. One’s understanding of anthropology (whether humans have an immortal soul or not) really does color this whole question of eternal torment. If man’s immortality is conditioned on resurrection then at the very least no one is being tormented until then. However, I very much look forward to your handling of the difficult text in Rev. 20.10.
Where is part three of this series? I was unsuccessful finding it with the search engine.
Daniel 3:15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
Daniel 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Daniel 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
Daniel 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Does Nebuchadnezzar represent good or evil in this situation?
Evil of course, so why do so many people believe that God has a similar but more tortuous fate than planned by Nebuchadnezzar for those that do not worship Him?
The gospel message from Genesis to Revelation. Go figure.
I too would like to read part 3……..
Hell (see Matthew 25:41,46) is the second death.
Ray,
The verses you mention (Matt. 25:41,46) don’t use the word “hell,” although they do describe the lake of fire, which is one use of “hell” but not the only one. Part of the confusion comes from the fact that the English word “hell” in the King James Version is used as the translation of more than one Greek word.
One of them is the Greek word ge’enna, which is the lake of fire into which the wicked are cast.
Another Greek word translated “hell” is hades. The Hebrew equivalent is sheol, and both words, as used in the Bible, simply mean the state of being dead. Everyone that dies goes to sheol/hades.
Yet a third Greek word translated “hell” in KJV is tartaros. This word refers to the place in which the wicked angels from before the flood are held imprisoned (II Peter 2:4). It only occurs once.
These three words must be carefully distinguished, since everyone that dies goes to sheol/hades but only the wicked are cast into ge’enna, the lake of fire, and then only at the end. It will exist in the future but does not exist yet.
The lake of fire is not a place of endless torment, but rather a place of final destruction. As seen in Revelation 21:8 it is called “the second death.” The wicked are to be destroyed, not kept alive and tortured unendingly.
Man is not inherently immortal, so in order to keep sinners alive to torture them unendingly, God would have to grant them eternal life. But we read that eternal life is the gift of God for those who believe in the Son of God. The wages of sin is death, not endless suffering. “He that does not have the Son of God does not have life” (I John 5:12).
Mark,
Is it still Sean, or is it you who’s webmaster of this site?
I contacted him through his christianmonotheism site, but he has not replied yet.
What’s your contact details?
Cheers!
Jaco
P.S. Pray with me for a possible debate…
Anybody know what ‘Tartaros’ might be?
Jaco,
Sean is still the webmaster, but he is very busy with school. Victor, Ron S. and I are administrators. You can email me at markclarke1@yahoo.com.
Xavier,
You must have missed the reference to tartaros in my last comment.
“Yet a third Greek word translated “hell” in KJV is tartaros. This word refers to the place in which the wicked angels from before the flood are held imprisoned (II Peter 2:4). It only occurs once.”
Mark,
I have a question about Mathew 25:46 which says, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I’m thinking this reference to “eternal punishment” must be either a reference that death is eternal, or that the grave/sheol is eternal. I know you have some knowledge of Greek and was wondering what you think it says in the original Greek text.
Thanks and have a good weekend…
Thomas
In Greek: kolasin 2
In NET: punishment 2
In AV: punishment 1, torment 1
Count: 2
Definition: 1) correction, punishment, penalty
related to this word
Greek: kolaswntai 1, kolazomenouv 1
In NET: for punishment 1, punish 1
In AV: punish 2
Count: 2
Definition: 1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished
In is derived fom this word
kolos (dwarf)
and is used twice in the bible, other being 1Jo 4:18
NLT ©
biblegateway 1Jo 4:18
Such love has no fear because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of judgment, and this shows that his love has not been perfected in us.
NLT ©
biblegateway Mat 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
Have a great Sabbath
The second death mentioned in Revelation is hell, the place of everlasting punishment which is reserved for the devil and his angels. It’s also the place where Jesus will send those whom he will, those who were disobedient. (see Matthew 25)
Thanks Robert,
I do not believe in an eternal suffering in hell, but I believe that on the day of judgment the goats will be completely destroyed by fire. It would seem that when Mathew 25:46 talks about “eternal punishment”. It is talking about the ultimate eternal punishment which is complete and everlasting destruction by fire.
You have a great Sabbath as well…
Ray,
The second death mentioned in Revelation is properly called the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna (from the Greek word). Calling it “hell” is confusing when that English word is also used (in KJV) to translate hades/sheol, the state of the dead, to which everyone goes.
Also, the word for “eternal” is aionios which literally means “belonging to the age.” It is used referring to the age to come.
http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/37.htm#2
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say unto them on his left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Ray,
I’m not sure what your point is. The word “everlasting” in that verse is aionios, the same word that’s translated “eternal” in verse 46. Eternal or everlasting life will be in the Kingdom, while eternal death will be the end result of the lake of fire. Both are in the future. But that lake of fire is not to be confused with the state of the dead, called hades in Greek, which is also translated “hell” in the KJV.
“I do not believe in an eternal suffering in hell, but I believe that on the day of judgment the goats will be completely destroyed by fire.”
Thomas
I agree and also believe that fallen heavenly beings will receive the same swift justice using Ezekiel 28:11-19 where the first annointed god of the earth will be consumed by fire. this will happen at the end of God’s 1000 year Sabbath while those in christ that are dead and the saints of the old covenant that are still alive will be caught up into heaven during the final judgement while the earth is renewed by fire. the beast,false prophets and satan and his angels will be the first to receive this Complete destruction and those not found in the lamb’s book of life will be cast back to earth during this to receive this Complete destruction
Eternal, or everlasting fire will be in hell where the wicked will enter. It’s also called the second death.
Isn’t it something how people who are alive will avoid death?
It’s not a pleasent thing, generally speaking. Most people would rather live. To enter into death is not something I want. I would rather enter into life eternal. In the presence of God, in heaven, there is life, for Christ is there. In heaven everything is alive and doing well. In heaven everything is blessed and being blessed.
Hell is a place of everlasting toment.
Ray,
You said, “Hell is a place of everlasting torment.”
Why would God want to eternally torment somebody???
God is loving, compassionate, forgiving, and just. A just God would not even consider the idea of eternally tormenting somebody. That is something that Satan would do, and probably do with pleasure. At least that’s the way I see our God anywaze…
“Isn’t it something how people who are alive will avoid death?”
Ray
No one can avoid death, Everyone will die atleast once.
this is why it is not biblical to put christ catching those that are alive at the beginning of God’s 1000 year Sabbath.because those that are alive when christ comes must have died once.
Heb 9:27
And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment,
Though an appointment for death awaits us all, men will seem to do anything to avoid it if they can. Strange then isn’t it…how they don’t easily repent?
Isn’t heaven or hell our only choice?
Ray,
You said, “Isn’t heaven or hell our only choice?”
James says in 1:13-15, “Let no one say when they are tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God,’ for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it is conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown BRINGS FORTH DEATH.” (ESV – emphasis mine).
What does James mean when he says sin fully grown brings forth death???
The bible also talks about how the wages of sin is death. According to you and many other people the wages of sin is NOT death, but eternal torment in hell. From what I understand there is not one passage in the bible that says that the wages of sin is eternal torment in hell, but it does clearly say that sin when it is fully grown BRINGS FORTH DEATH…
Ray,
Not according to the Bible. Many tracts and church billboards have messages like, “Where will you spend eternity? In heaven or in hell?” But the Bible never presents such a choice. The Bible says that it is a choice between “life and death”
Deuteronomy 30:
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Romans 6:
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I John 5:
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Asking “where will you spend eternity” begins with the assumption that one has eternal life to spend somewhere. But the Bible tells us that eternal life is the gift of God. It is not inherent in man. When the Lord returns he will grant it to the faithful believers (Romans 2:7; I Corinthians 15:53-54). In order for someone to spend eternity in “heaven” or “hell” he has to have eternal life.
You yourself said (correctly) that the Lake of Fire is called the second death. If it’s death, it’s not “everlasting torment.”
So often Jesus warned of hell, a place of everlasting habitation, a place of torment, a place of destruction, a place of fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels, a place where the unrighteous will enter, a place for the liars and deceivers, the messengers of hell who transformed themselves into messengers of light. It’s a place of death, the end of life, a place of darkness where there is no goodness, a permanent ending of the ways of darkness, a final judgment reserved, a second death.
I suppose it’s the ending of their spiritual life that was in God, the Christ they crucified (by sinning against him) sent them to their end.
Ray,
You’re still confusing your terms. Jesus did speak of “hell” (gehenna, the lake of fire) as a place of destruction, a place of fire, a place of death, the end of life, a place of darkness where there is no goodness, a permanent ending of the ways of darkness, a final judgment reserved, a second death.
However he did NOT say it was “a place of everlasting habitation, a place of torment.” It is the final destruction, where the wicked will be annihilated. It is, as you say, “their end,” after which they will no longer exist. NOWHERE does the Bible speak of unending conscious torment for the wicked.
There truely is a hell that burns without end. The flames there do not diminish. They do not go out. Things there do not cool down.
Days there will not ever be any better. All idolaters and liars will have their part in that lake of fire which is called the second death.
(Revelation 21:8)
Just because it’s called the second death, does not mean they will not suffer for eternity.
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Jesus said it. Jesus is the Lord. Many I suppose will love to lie and go on their way to hell. The good news is that while there is time, they may repent if God grant them repentance unto life eternal, but the choice is theirs.
Mark, repent and be saved in Jesus’s name.
Ray,
Have you even read the articles that this thread is attached to? We have demonstrated what the word translated “everlasting” means. We have also pointed out that no one could survive forever in flames unless they were given the gift of life. We have pointed out much Scriptural evidence for the fact that the wicked will be destroyed and not endlessly tortured. (It is also dealt with in an article on my website.)
If you want to actually discuss this, then you need to handle the evidence that has been presented. Simply contradicting it is not sufficient.
Finally, you may choose to believe what you want, but why do you assume that I am not saved and need to repent? That is getting into judgment and accusation which should have no place in these discussions.
Ray,
I agree with Mark. “If you want to actually discuss this, then you need to handle the evidence that has been presented.” You seem to be ignoring everything we are saying, including ignoring our bible quotations and our questions.
In msg. #19, I asked, “Why would God want to eternally torment somebody???”
In msg. #22, I asked, “What does James mean when he says sin fully grown brings forth death???”
I also agree with Mark that it is wrong for you to say that anybody needs to “repent and be saved” just because they disagree with your opinion. If you want to agree to disagree that is fine. But if you want to continue to discuss this topic then you have to at least answer any questions that are put forward.
If you don’t then we have no idea why it is you believe what you believe…