On the Errors of the Trinity
March 11th, 2009 by Sean
A thorough consideration and refutation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Originally released as 12 tapes but now available on mp3, this series examines the doctrine of the Trinity proposition by proposition. Not only is this series approached from a biblical perspective, Don Snedeker also taps into the rich biblical unitarian resources of several authors from the 19th century. Furthermore, Don works through a number of texts typically used to support the Trinity and he demonstrates their true meaning based on their context. Click on the audio icon above to see the titles for each of the 12 mp3s in this comprehensive examination.
- Introductions A and B; Biblical Unitarianism Explained
- Three Types of Trinitarianism; The Word “Persons”; Language of Trinitarianism Not in the Bible
- Doctrine of the Trinity a Doctrine of Inference; Belief in the Doctrine Not Necessary for Salvation; The Doctrine is Unintelligible; Polytheism
- The Doctrine of the Double Nature of Christ
- Ad Hoc Argumentation Employed to Sustain the Doctrine; Early Church Councils and Creeds; Platonism; Entropy
- Mystery vs. Contradiction; Reason and Revelation; Rules of Interpretation; Common Sense
- Continuity of Belief in One God from OT to NT; Our Heavenly Father is the Supreme Authority; The Person and Mission of Jesus
- Jesus’ Denial of Being God; The Logos
- Jesus Didn’t Pre-Exist His Birth; Holy Spirit
- Names and Titles of God, Jesus, and Others; “Jehovah”; “Elohim”; “God”
- Similar Terminology Applied to God and Christ Also Applied to Others; Timeliness Issues; Difficult and/or Misunderstood Verses
- Difficult and/or Misunderstood Verses (cont’d); Closing Thoughts
click here to download any or all of the above titles for free.
thank you
I wholeheartedly agree with your paper concerning Jesus. It would seem in this day and age, we see a lot of people wearing shirts and other things in their way of “worshiping” Jesus. HE is Lord and King but it is God, the Father, the Creator, who should be worshipped.
Amen
Can you provide a little background on who Don Snedeker is? I’ve never heard of him.
Randy,
Thanks for reading the paper. I think once we get our minds around the terminology of worship in the historical context the whole subject begins to make some sort of sense.
Mark,
Don Snedeker is associated with Spirit & Truth (formerly CES). He lives in NJ and spent a good deal of time in the Princeton Theological Seminary (PTS) library reading up on the biblical unitarian (BU) movement of the 1800s in America. This audio series he has graciously allowed us to post on christianmonotheism.com without charging for it. He produced the CD set at his own expense and has a heart to get the truth about our God out to as many as possible.
dont know if this has been already posted.
there are some very good points in this
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1177
move this where ever you want
Hey guys,
Anymore ideas on how we combat C. S. Lewis’ infamous “God begets God” theory from his Mere Christianity book?
“When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds…Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.” C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1943, p. 138.
The Bible never says God begets God. It is clear from the birth narratives that God begot/created within the womb of a human. What C.S. Lewis believes in is a hybrid, and he is talking about the “eternal generation” of the son, which is bizarre and contradictory to Psalm 2.7. God is the Father of Jesus not because he begot him in eternity past but because he fathered him via the holy spirit in the virgin Mary. The Bible never talks about an primordial begetting. Furthermore, since God is God and not a man or a beaver, he is able to beget/create something other than himself. To deny this principle is to deny his ability to create.
Sean: “…since God is God and not a man or a beaver, he is able to beget/create something other than himself.”
But the argument is that God created in a special and unique way a human being through the biological process of human conception to create His son. Special and unique because God is not creating “ex nihilo” [ie Genesis], but involved Himself in the human reproduction process.
So, would you say that his argument based on “seeds that produce each according to its kind” [Gen 1.11], a legitimate one that is wrongly misapplied when it comes to the birth narrative accounts of Jesus’ conception and bringing into existence [gennao, ginomai, Mat 1.20; Lu 1.35]?
Xavier,
yes, the principle “each according to its kind” is misapplied by those who try and make a “God begets God” of it …. those folks don’t seem to realize that with their falsly applied idea they are actually violating this principle in that they have a human give birth to a God.
Women do only give birth to a human being … seeing that a woman can only conceive seed of the human kind, it should be clear that what God provided in the conception of Jesus was a male seed of the kind “human”, else there could have been no conception taking place in Mary.
Since God created the human being Adam as a complete human being, it should be obious that God would not have a problem with creating just a part of a human being, such as a male seed.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
When we worship Jesus, we honor God even as Jesus is the Son
of God. When we worship Jesus, God does not accuse us of idolatry. When we kiss the Son, (if so be that our worship does in such manner touch the king) God is not angry, if indeed it is a holy
kiss.
I believe God begat a God when he conceived Jesus in the womb
and brought him through the process of birth into this world. See Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34-36. It is this God (Jesus) that we all
shall bow down to, before the throne of God where Jesus sits with
him and where he judges the nations.
Psalm 71:3
Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort:
thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.
Romans 10:9,10
Ray
You have the man Jesus confused with the Spirit Of God which was the power and authority which all miracles was made possible.
Jesus is the Son of God who through Belief in his Father(the One and Only God) was sinless on this earth who now sits at the right hand of God till he returns to rule the Kingdom of His God.
there is a false jesus that is worshiped as a god but the Real Son of God with His Father’s power will defeat.
without the Seven Spirits of God nothing can be defeated
Hi Ray,
This idea does indeed contradict what the Scriptures have to say concerning mankind and conception (in particular, to what kind of being a woman can give birth).
Furthermore, such an idea is polytheistic since it plainly has (at least) two Gods … which flat out contradicts the overall teaching of the Bible, that there is only One, who alone (and not, together with someone else) is the true God.
Neither Psa 82:6 nor John 10:34-36 support what you are claiming.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Ray this is what scripture says regarding the birth of the human Son of God:
“And the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found grace…And listen! You will become pregnant and will give birth to a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus…And Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I have no husband? Then the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you [like a shining cloud]; and so the holy thing which shall be born of you will be called the Son of God.” Lu 1.30-35
We as Christians should believe what the biblical story says and not just profess a believe in the birth narratives of Jesus of Nazareth.
Let’s not be like the Muslims who believe the virgin birth but not what it actually says regarding the “natural sonship” of a human being by YHWH!
Robert,
I’ve wondered in the past if Jesus is that spirit of God that moved
upon the waters in the beginning of creation. The scripture says
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit, so we know that Jesus
is a quickening spirit.
I suppose the spirit of God mentioned in Genesis 1:2 could be a
spirit other than Jesus. If so, then it seems to me that Jesus might
have been in that spirit of God. He may have been the eternal life
of God that was abiding in that spirit.
What does Jesus look like to back in Genesis?
Ray
Wolfgang,
When God begat a God (Jesus) in the womb of Mary, a Son of his
that was with him from eternity came out from God and became
connected to mankind in the lower parts of the earth (the womb)
and our future became affected in a most profound way.
I refer to him as a God because Jesus was the first of all beings to
have received the word of God. The scripture has called them gods
who have received the word of God. The scripture can not be broken.
When God begat Jesus, God begat a being that was as he himself
is. That one was with him, living without a fleshly body from eternity. He as his only Son came out from that heavenly being
that we know as God himself.
Am I truely polythiestic?
There is only one God and one Lord (Jesus) who is as God himself.
Ray
I’ve heard from men that have had visions of heavenly things
that have seen Jesus and some have also seen God. As I was
reading from the book of Revelation, I read what seemed to be
a report of a man seeing God on his throne, and also what seemed
to be Jesus sitting on the throne also.
I’ve been keeping my ears open as I hear from men who have reported on seeing heavenly things, and I have not yet heard of anyone yet seeing another being as a person that is reported to
being the holy spirit.
I’ve heard of men saying that they have seen a cloud, and we’ve
talked about that as being the presence of the Lord, or the spirit
of God, but I haven’t heard of anyone seeing a “third person”
in a vision, and I’ve found that to be interesting.
I also want to remember that I’ve been told that we are not to
use visions and dreams as doctrine, or to make a doctrine based
upon what has been seen, but to use the scripture as our foundation for doctrine.
I am certain that God will be revealing things from the scripture
that have been hidden from our understanding through visions and
dreams which come by the holy spirit.
No doubt that what God reveals will be interesting in the near future.
Ray,
You stated:
“… a Son of his that was with him from eternity came out from God and became connected to mankind …”
Do you have scripture to support this?
-Regards-
Ray
The Spirit of God is the same spirit that came over all of the Prophets. It is called Christ.
Jesus was born a man but thru total belief he was able to give up His freewill to do Gods Will.
He could of sinned but didn’t. He could of took satan’s offer but knew if he did Gods will He would inherit the rule of the Kingdom of God.
The miracles He performed you will find had been performed prior.
the one thing no one before Him did was to offer themselves as the Lamb of God for an offering for our sins.
The Seven Spirits of God is represented by the Tree of Life and the Menorah which both represent the Tree which Jesus was hanged on.
The false jesus is the one who you think was hung on a roman cross which was brought to you by the one who gave us the trinity,christmas and easter which are all about god the sun who is his own father born by a virgin.
The real Jesus was begat by God thru the virgin mary and was born a man and became the second in charge of everything that is of God. But is still just the Son of God not a god
Tim,
Here is what Micah 5:2 says:
And thou Bethlehem Ephratah art little to be among the thousands
of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me, that shall be the ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from the beginning and from everlasting. – 1599 Geneva
Here is Matthew 2:6
And thou Bethlehem in the land of Judah, art not the least among the Princes of Judah: for out of thee shall vome the governor that
shall feed my people Israel. – 1599 Geneva
Jesus came out from both God and Bethlehem. He also came out of
Mary through the womb, and after his ministry work was done, he
went back unto God when he ascended. His goings forth have been
of old, even from everlasting, for thus saith the scriptures.
I read a book once that seemed to investigate all the verses that
people have read who have defended Jesus as being a part of the
trinity according to their doctrine, but in the book I read there was
no mention of Micah 5:2.
Ray
the from old is David and the everlasting is Jesus which have both came forth out of Bethlehem
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Ray, your logic is worrisome “brother”. I suggest you keep trying to implement a proper historical, biblical and exegetical way to interpret the scriptures, neccesary tools in being able to see truth from error.
God help you…
Xavier,
There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. It’s Jesus who has been over all, with God from eternity, who came into
this world by being born, when the time came.
Ray,
As you well know, not everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved [Mat 7.21]. Jesus was placed “above all things” only at his resurrection, which clearly indicates that he assumed a position he hitherto did not previously hold, as Peter explains to the astonished “pentecostal crowd” in Acts 2. 22-36.
“In the beginning” there was ONLY YHWH bringing into creation that which beforehand was not through His spirit [Gen 1.1]. Nowhere does scripture speak of a Godhead of persons acting in eternety past:
“Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me. ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, from the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming and the events that are going to take place. ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none…I am YHWH, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God.” Isa 44.6-8; 45.5
Jesus himself testifies to YHWH’s only and only Creator role:
“’Haven’t you read the Scriptures?’ Jesus replied. ‘They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female’.” Mat 19.4
But, I may be wrong, unless otherwise proven so via the scriptures Ray…what say you??
Xavier,
When I refer to Jesus as being a God, I’m not saying that God
made some kind of nonliving image of something to bow down to
that would redeem him from some kind of weakness, faults or sins,
for God has none of those things with him.
Jesus most certainly was with God from everlasting and has been in
those times before his being born of a woman, above all the things
of this world. Jesus created this world by the power of God which
the scriptures give witness to, and the builder is worthy of more
honor than the house that he has built as it was the work of his
doing.
God’s plan of salvation included sending his own Son Jesus from
heaven to this earth by birth through a virgin who received his
conception by God, by way of the holy spirit. He who was with him
from eternity past was sent by the will of God to redeem them who
had fallen into sin, whosoever would believe in him by the grace of
God given to us.
These things the scriptures give witness to by the holy spirit of God, and those that are his will receive it, either now or later, for
it is the truth of God that we who are his shall receive and abide in
for eternity, as long as we abide in Jesus who has saved us, and
given us an eternal future of glory in God the Father and in his kingdom of heaven which shall endure forever in righteousness,
justice, mercy and truth for all those things are unto us by Jesus
Christ, the mystery which lived in God from everlasting, but now in
these last days God has revealed to us and will continue to reveal
for our eternal future is in Christ Jesus the Lord of all creation, the
same one who was above all the works of God, and has shown himself worthy of his calling, being proved by God to the world which he has made, angels and all heavenly beings having been shown the holiness and obedience of Christ, even unto death
by the cross.
When I refer to Jesus as being a God, I refer to him as being above
all beings who have received the word of God, as he is God’s only
begotten Son, the obedient heir of all things.
I fail to see in scripture what you are claiming here Ray, where is Jesus in the OT? Give me a specific passage or verse of scripture where the person Jesus of Nazareth is already existing???
Where in scripture does it say Jesus created the heavens and the earth???
Col 1.15-20 says “all things were created through [dia] him” and not “by” him. But if it is alluding to Jesus as THE Creator [along side another you call God the Father] why doesn’t Jesus say so in Mat 19.4??
Yes, Jesus “is God’s only begotten Son”. But how can the Son be eternal, “with God from everlasting …before his being born of a woman”, if the word translated “begotten” in greek [gennao, and in any other language] means “to bring forth into creation, to procreate”??
How can Jesus have existed his “birth” if the NT witness is to a “genesis” [point of origin] of a human being in the womb of the virgin Mary [Mat 1.1, 18-20; cp. Lu 1.33-35]???
Ray
When You recieve the Holy Spirit like Jesus did then you can also claim a part of you existed from the beginning.But that part was a gift from God and is His only.
What you fail to understand is the things that you think are being mentioned about Jesus that make you think he was in the beginning are being mentioned about the Christ which is the Spirit of God with Him.
You can also recieve the Christ which is the Holy Spirit from God.
When John the B spoke it was the Spirit of God he saw with Jesus.
Xavier,
I believe Jesus is in the OT in the word “us” when God said “Let us
make man in our image..”.
God created all things through Jesus Christ.
Did you ever see a man walk through the doorway if the doorway
did not exist? Have you ever seen a man come down from a roof
if he hadn’t been on the roof first? Has any man ever gone to where he was before if he hadn’t first been there?
Jesus can be found throughout scripture. He’s the wisdom of God
in Proverbs chapter 8.
It’s good to look for him in the OT. He’s often hidden in a mystery.
As to why Jesus didn’t say that he created, but rather gave the
glory to God when speaking of the created things, maybe it was
because of his humble nature, taking upon himself the form of a
servant of God, yet this servant of God had to declare the good
news about himself to save the world from it’s sins and walk
humbly with his God, our Father. Jesus knew how to do it. He often
revealed things about himself by hiding things so that we might find them, much like Isaiah did and the other prophets.
So how could Jesus have began an existance in this world in the
flesh, and also have existed with God prior to that time? I suppose
in much the same way that we will one day exist with God in heaven having at one time existed in this world at a prior time.
Robert,
When I received Christ, I received him who was in the beginnning
with God, the one whom God created all things through.
When Jesus received the holy spirit at his baptism by John, he received that which was from eternity and was from God. It was
the same that he abided in from eternity past, the same that was
with him in the beginning before the creation of the world.
Ray
you still don’t know Jesus, The christ, The holy Spirit,or God.
when a man becomes president was he always a president from birth. NO
Jesus was a man, it was God who allowed him any power. without God ,Jesus couldnt of died for our sins.
THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS GODS AND HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER BELONG TO ANY OTHER.
GOD WILL COMFORT AND TEACH YOU WITH IT JUST LIKE HE DID OUR BROTHER JESUS. THATS RIGHT THE MAN THAT WILL RULE AND MEDIATE IS OUR BROTHER.
SO WHATEVER JESUS IS WE ARE TOO.
When I received the holy spirit, I suppose I could claim that a part
of me has therefore existed from everlasting because the part I would be refering to would be the gift of God that was with him
from that time, and not anything that was in me or a part of me
before receiving that spirit of God.
I hadn’t thought of that. I think it’s good. It’s creative thinking and
believe it to be true.
When God said in the scriptures that there is no God with him,
I do not believe he was telling Israel that he at that time did not have a Son (Jesus) with him at that time. I believe he was talking
about other idols, or imaginative beings, or angels, or devils or whatever. God had none of those things that were a God to him.
Whether there be any such beings like that, there were none that
God bowed down to in order to have his existence, or being. He
had none that he depended on for his livelyhood. He needed to
answer to no other being as he himself in over all things and created all things by Jesus Christ who was with him from eternity.
When Thomas said to Jesus, ..”My Lord and my God..” I do not believe he was polythiestic.
All words used by men and God have a sense and a meaning by
the one using the terms, and we are the ones who face the interpretation of such things.
Jesus was hid in God from the beginning, and when God hides something, it’s the glory of kings to seach it out. God has hidden
things for his glory.
I believe the greatest thing God hid for his glory and our salvation
is Jesus whom he later revealed.
Here’s a verse that says that Jesus was with God and it’s in the OT:
Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, when his
wrath shall suddenly burn. Blessed are all they that trust in him.
I know there are more. One comes to mind from Proverbs where
a prophesy is mentioned in Proverbs 30:4.
Doesn’t the OT scripture say Romans 10:9,10?
Ray,
Psa 2 is a “royal Psalm” originally used in the enthronement ceremony of the Jewish king on his acscension to the Davidic throne [cp. 1 Kings 1.28-53; 2 Kings 11.12]. It was later applied by the NT writers to Jesus of Nazareth as the promised, prophesized “Annointed One of YHWH”.
The words Messiah and Christ can only be applied to a human representative of YHWH, and not to YHWH Himself. In the day of their enthronement the Davidic king was “adopted” as YHWH’s very own son according to the Davidic Pact of 2Sam 7.14 and later used by the NT writers in reference to the annointing and “oirign” of the man Jesus of Nazareth as the promised propthet [Deu 18], seed of of the woman [Gen 3.15] saviour and naturally created one and only [monogenes] Son of God:
“…this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten [created, gennao] you’” Acts 13.33 [cp. Heb 1.5; 5.5]
But i guess you will balk at this biblical evidence so answer me this, who died for you on the cross? God or the Son of God??
Ray
it is possible God hid His Son but there is nowhere in the Word of God that says He did.
since God knew the beginning and end means that he is not held by time like we are. he created that too.
who knows that when the new heaven and earth comes we might be back at the beginning.
but please Ray give the glory to Him that sent Jesus first then he that was sent. Because Jesus said God was greater then him.
there are so many lies that needs to be revealed so we can know our God and be His people
Xavier,
I do not believe that Jesus began his first existence when he was
raised (begotton from the grave) from the dead. If I were to handle
Acts 13:26-39 in such manner I should be found to be at fault, and
in need of finding the salvation which was in God from everlasting,
but came down from heaven to us to bring that which God had promised, even eternal life which is in his Son Jesus. It’s he who
died on a cross for me.
Glory be to God for giving us such salvation.
When God first spoke he said, “Let there be light.” He did not need
light to see, but it was said for our sakes no doubt. This light did not generate from the sun which had not yet been created. This light came by the word of God and it was good. It was the first good thing of God that is called good in the Bible.
God gave a word to this light (Day) which is also what he called
his children of, for we who believe in Jesus are of the day.
I believe God speaks in patterns and that he prophesied the gospel
in the first word he gave us which was from the beginning. This in
Genesis is the first in order of scripture where I have noticed Jesus
hidden in the word of God.
Ray,
“…(begotton from the grave) from the dead…”??? Your not serious are you? So a preexistent “Son Jesus”, who himself is God, died for you on the cross?
How old are you Ray?
Can i advice you to meditate long and hard on the parable of the Sower. A parable that, according to Jesus himself, is crucial in understanding all the other parables, for within it is defined the true gospel the Lord Jesus Christ was born to preach:
“His disciples asked him what this parable meant. He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables to teach the others so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled:
‘When they look, they won’t really see. When they hear, they won’t understand.’
“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is God’s word. The seeds that fell on the footpath represent those who hear the message, only to have the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved.”
Luke 8:9-12 (New Living Translation)
I believe the good seed is the word of God and that Jesus
is the word which was sown in the earth and that he existed
as the word of God before there ever was physical seed. He
was with God from before time began and those who have worshiped him as God, calling him a God as Thomas did, are not
necessarily polythiestic nor trinitarian.
There are people who need to get out of those boxes which they
have made. Some have made them for themselves and some have
them for others.
Ray
there is nothing hiding in the Word of God, there is only the blind who read it.
the blind create a vision that dont exist and its usually greater than what they are not seeing.
maybe an image you can feel with your hands will satisfy your need for something greater than the Word of God.
is that not what most do
as for me i will take whats clear and wait for the rest to come into focus
Those who say they see often have sins that remain.
I believe the major error of those who defend, promote, and
expect all those that they teach the trinity doctrine to, to believe
it, and teach it to others, is that they expect to cause others to
be just as they are, to ‘see’ things the way they ‘see’ them, and to
be after their own likeness. I do not believe they serve God by so
doing.
I believe they build a box they expect all that come to their church
to stay within, a box built by man which was intended to glorify God, but one that God never told them to build.
I suppose they did it for the sake of unity, but the result instead
is to cause division. There’s power in unity, but if the unity is not of
God, it will sooner or later come to nothing, like the tower of Babel.
If God’s people are not free and know it, they will not likely want to
bring others into their church. I think many people go to church because there is some good there and they forbear a lot. They go
even though they are not real happy with it.
Maybe they go for awhile and then try another church and finding it
much the same they decide to quit going for awhile even though we are called of God to gather together and commune with one
another.
Ray
You seem to be a very loving and caring person who has a great desire to know the truth.
I have not found anywhere a church that teaches true doctrine.There are some that have got past one or two deceptions but still teach several lies.
The biggest lie they still teach is God had changed from OT to NT. They use one verse that is very unclear to justify sinning when there is hundreds that say clearly what sins are.
Jesus did not remove us from the law. he lived the law,taught the law and commanded us to follow it even though it also takes belief to provide for salvation.one without the other is worthless.
It might help you to know that Gods real name YHWH was not translated right in most bibles which is LORD in OT and Lord in NT. they also put Lord where Jesus’s real name should be which confuses most people into thinking some things are Jesus when it is spoken of God. this is why its so hard for people to get pass the lie of the trinity.