How Would You Respond? The Transfiguration
August 5th, 2009 by Sean
I recently received the following email from Kevin, a fellow believer from the UK:
Hi, Sean I trust you are all well,
I totally agree that death is sleep, please can you help me with Jesus’ transfiguration, with Moses and Elijah, from what I understand these two wonderful believers are sleeping until the resurrection, Luke 9.28-36
thanks Sean, grace and peace,
kevin
The first thing to notice in this biblical account is that this event was a vision. In Matthew it says “as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, ‘Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.’” Jesus had just told them that there would be some standing there who would see the kingdom (Luke 9.27). Then, these three men–Peter, James, and John–were with Jesus on this mountain when suddenly they saw a vision of the kingdom. Moses and Elijah were there with Jesus in their glorified resurrected bodies. This preview of the kingdom was later mentioned by Peter when he said that he was an eye-witness of Jesus’ majesty. Here is the full quote:
2 Peter 1.16-19
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased “–
18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
Would anyone else like to respond to Kevin’s question?
Hi Sean,
It seems to me that the content of the conversation between Jesus and Moses and Elijah in this vision was not about the future kingdom but about what Jesus was to accomplish at Jerusalem (cp Lk 9:30-31)?
From the parallel record in Mt 16:28, it also seems that the transfiguration was not the fulfillment of what Jesus had promised to some just a few days earlier … “28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”. The record about the transfiguration does not tell of Jesus COMING in his kingdom, but about his “exodus which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem”. In addition, the mention of “some … which shall not taste of death, till they see …” rather clearly indicates that Jesus was obviously not talking about something which was to happen a few days later when NONE of those standing by who had heard him say this had tasted death …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang,
I fear you missed the point of Kevin’s question. How would you respond to his question about Moses and Elijah being “alive”?
Dont think i could add a single thing to your response as it is perfectly clear.
ty for the clarity on this
I heard a man speak of the transfiguration of Christ as being an
eyewitness account of his resurrection, meaning that they saw
him in resurrected glory.
I wonder if “vision” meant “what they saw” or if it meant
the entire thing was a “vision as in a revelatory visual expression
in the spirit” or something like that.
I believe God is the God of Elijah and Moses and that he is not the
God of the dead, but of the living.
It is like in Rev 20, where John saw visions of the first and second resurrections. No one (well, almost no one) would say that the vision is an actual reality going on right before his eyes.
Note that in the NIV of Matthew’s versio of the transfig (Matt. 17) the word “vision” (orama in Gk) is omitted.
Dustin
Hi Sean,
missed the point? oh .. perhaps.
As for Moses and Elijah being alive or not, I would answer that at the time of this event, both Moses and Elijah were dead and awaiting the resurrection.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
I think you answered it completely, Sean.
It was a vision. Jesus said it was a vision. And the quotation from 2 Peter, a personal favorite letter of mine, is remarkable because they pointed to having seen Him in His Glory during the vision.
Moses and Elijah are still dead and awaiting the resurrection.
I think it is significant that it was placed after Jesus said that some standing there would not experience death until they had seen Him coming in His Kingdom. The statement doesn’t necessiate that someone die immediately after seeing the vision of what I perceive as King coming in His Kingdom.
As far as the statement concerning God being the God of the living, not of the dead. Jesus add something very, very significant:
“For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”
I think that is a loaded statement.
If we attach Jesus’ statement to that fact that time is a created thing and new theories regarding time as being honeycomb-like (were you “outside” of it and able to look “into” it; starting and stopping points), then such a statement would have some powerful implications that are not necessarily related to this thread.
Joshua,
you wrote above
Jesus’ statement had nothing to do with anyone dying after having seen the kingdom … Jesus said that SOME of those standing there would not die until after they had seen the Son of Man come in his kingdom …
This implies that Jesus was obviously of the understanding that this was not going to happen while ALL who were standing there were still alive, rather, his wording implies that perhaps most of those standing there would die before this would come to pass and only some of those who were standing there would see the Son of man come in his kingdom. Furthermore, Jesus did not say that some would see a vision of the kingdom before they would die, but that they would see the Son of man coming in his kingdom (and not a just vision thereof).
Thus, it is clear that the transfiguration event could NOT have been the event to which Jesus was referring.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
How many people witnessed the transfiguration?
3. That fits “some”.
And the fact that the event is placed immediately after that statement in the Scriptures is significant, is it not?
If there was no significance to the transfiguration, why would it be recorded and why would Peter refer to it as being a sign of His “appearing” or “coming”?
Furthermore, Peter continues by saying:
NOTE: “Coming” is, in the context, “The Lord['s] promise”. If He had already came, why would scoffers be saying, “Where is He?” followed by Peter discussing the irrelevance of time concerning God’s ability to do what He promises? Why wouldn’t he just say, “Those dumb scoffers. The Lord won’t come again – at least, not in a way that most people can see Him. Goodness, He won’t even come in a way that anyone can see Him. He’ll be an invisible force behind the destruction of Jerusalem in about 4 years after this letter. See how dumb they are…”?
Jesus said, “some of those standing [there] would not die until after they had seen the Son of Man come in his kingdom”. Again, we’re back to the “coming of the Kingdom”. If we maintain that the events of 70 AD were “the Son of Man coming in his kingdom”, that still doesn’t fit the words. No one saw the Son of Man during those events. Yet He appeared in His Glory (as He was after His resurrection) in vision form to those 3 disciples.
If you want to say it is a figure of speech, then please provide the interpretation.
What was the real intent of Jesus’ words?
Did He just mean “the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom” as “invisible force behind the destruction of Jerusalem which wasn’t enough even to convince His most beloved apostle, John, that He had already come (and gone) who wrote the Revelation nearly 30 years later, ending it with the words, ‘He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.’”?
Thanks!
“Furthermore, Jesus did not say that some would see a vision of the kingdom before they would die, but that they would see the Son of man coming in his kingdom (and not a just vision thereof).”
Wolfgang
so you claim we are living now in the Kingdom so you must have personally met Jesus,Moses and Elijah. could you get me an autograph because i am a great fan of theirs.
you used the wheat and tare parable to claim there was both in the Kingdom but never addressed the 2 places mentioned in it. you never explained the barn where the pure wheat is stored.
show a better reference to someone seeing the Son of man coming in his kingdom anywhere in the scriptures or show me a group in history.
if we are living in the kingdom now i bet Abraham and David are very confused
Joshua,
please note, Jesus mentioned the “some” to clarify “WOULD NOT DIE before seeing the Son of man coming in his kingdom”. You seem to think that Jesus said that only some would see a vision (not the actual event) of the Son of man coming in his kingdom …
Therefore, let’s just take your idea of the transfiguration — which happened a few days after Jesus’ statement — as fulfillment of Jesus’ words … how many of those standing by who heard Jesus make that statement do you think died before the transfiguration in order for only “some” to be alive to see it?
Yes, it is …. the fact that the records state that it happened only a few days after Jesus had made this statement clearly shows that it could NOT be the fulfillment of his words. The transfiguration was a vision which obviously served a purpose for Jesus himself (NOT primarily a purpose for the disciples who witnessed it) as is shown in Luke where we are told what Jesus and Moses and Elijah were talking about … I would think that it harmonizes with what we read in Heb 12, where the writer declares that Jesus endured the suffering “for the glory which was set before him” … the transfiguration definitely shows to what this would refer
See above …
When you read the records about the transfiguration and Jesus’ statements a few days prior, it is plain and clear that Jesus prophesied that some (not all, not even the majority .. but SOME) of those who were standing there would live to see the day of his his coming. He was not prophesying about the transfiguration, but about his coming in his kingdom!
Cheers,
Wolfgang
I wonder how it is that dead men who are waiting for their resurrection speak to Jesus. They must have been alive in the spirit
but dead in earthly body and brain. It seems to me that their souls
must have been connected to their spirit which is of God.
Ray wrote:
If they were alive somewhere, then they weren’t dead.
Wolfgang wrote:
There was only one transfiguration event that we know of in the Scriptures. Everybody who heard Jesus say that some standing there would not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom died. Peter, James, and John saw Him change into a glorified state. Later they died. All 3 of them saw Him in glory before they died.
Please answer a question sometime to make this discussion more fruitful.
Wolfgang wrote:
So, when did He come in His Kingdom and who saw it?
It seems to me that Matthew 16:28 might refer to both the transfiguration and his future coming. So many times a word
has so many applications and different ways of being fulfilled.
I believe it is also possible that men might receive a visual revelation of
Jesus coming in the glory of God with the angels just prior to their
death. Such a thing might also fulfill such a word.
Couldn’t the transfiguration account be interpreted as seeing Jesus
coming in or into his kingdom? I think it’s a possibility.
Hello everyone,
The transfiguration presents absolutely no problem for the doctrine that teaches that death is sleep. Moses and Elijah are special cases: Elijah was raised to heaven and never died, and Moses was apparently resurrected sometime after his death. (Hence the dispute between Satan and Michael concerning his body…) Moses and Elijah are types of the future resurrection of all believers since every believer will experience death and resurrection (like Moses) or will be transformed without experiencing death at the return of Christ (like Elijah). All statements in the bible about everyone being dead or nobody being raised refer to the vast majority of mankind who have not been raised. God, however, can make exceptions for whoever he so chooses, i.e. Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Jesus, etc…
About the transfiguration, It seems to be that those who are dead
may be alive even as those who are alive are dead.
I heard once that the Bible has riddles and that “If a man die once,
he lives twice, and if he lives twice, he dies once.”
Hi Karl,
you write:
I don’t find such a doctrine as “death is sleep” in the Bible …
“Sleep” by definition is a state of rest of LIVING BEINGS. Thus, to say that “death is sleep” one teaches that “death” is not really “death”, and one may as well join those circles who declare that the dead are not really dead, but alive in some shape or form.
It seems to me that once again, that a false doctrine is being advocated because of a lack of knowledge of the use of figures of speech, and things figurative are understood literally. As far as I understand the Scriptures, the dead = dead, and the term “sleep” in reference to a dead person involves the use of a figure of speech, but does NOT describe literally the state of the dead as “sleeping” in the literal sense of the word (if so, the dead would not be dead)
Cheers,
Wolfgang
We agree on something, Wolfgang!
In Scripture, “sleep” is used as a figure of speech* to describe that dead people are really dead but that they will eventually awake, that is: come back to life. People who have died have no perception of the passage of time, like sleep.
*It is a figure of speech whose meaning is defined in the Scriptures.
Wolfgang,
There is no misunderstanding of figures of speech or any “false” doctrine being advocated on my part. I assumed that all of the conditionalists on here (including you) would understand what I and the bible meant by the phrase “death is sleep.” However, since I was wrong in my assumption let me revise my post:
The transfiguration presents absolutely no problem for the doctrine of conditional immortality. Moses and Elijah are special cases: Elijah was raised to heaven and never died, and Moses was apparently resurrected sometime after his death. (Hence the dispute between Satan and Michael concerning his body…) Moses and Elijah are types of the future resurrection of all believers since every believer will experience death and resurrection (like Moses) or will be transformed without experiencing death at the return of Christ (like Elijah). All statements in the bible about everyone being dead or nobody being raised refer to the vast majority of mankind who have not been raised and are still dead (i.e. not alive). God, however, can make exceptions for whoever he so chooses, i.e. Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Jesus, etc…
I believe Jesus was the first to attain to the resurrection.
I haven’t read where Moses was raised from the dead.
Hi Karl,
exchanging the words “doctrine of death is slepp” for the words “doctrine of conditional immortality” only causes me to remark that I am not even aware of “the doctrine of conditional immortality” is …
I’ve not read about that in the Scriptures either …
Does Scripture teach that prior to the resurrection the dead are dead? or does it teach that the dead are “conditionally immortal” (whatever that supposedly means)? or does it teach that the dead are somehow alive and sleeping? or does it teach something different?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Joshua,
Careful … we agree that dead are dead prior to being raised from the dead.
BUT as for the figure of speech used here, I do not agree that the purpose of the particular figure of speech is “to describe that the dead will awaken eventually”.
Rather, the particular figure of speech involved here is called “Euphemism”, by which a harsher reality is expressed by means of a less harsh reality … the literal truth still is “the person is dead”, when this truth is expressed by the means of the figure of speech euphemism, the expression is “the person is asleep” and the context determines that it is not about a living person sleeping but about a dead person being dead.
The meaning of a figure of speech is not defined in the Scriptures … figures of speech are defined by their use in a text, language. Figures like “parable”, “metapher”, “metonymy”, “hendiadys”, etc are not only used in the Scriptures, and when they are used in the Scriptures they are not differently defined than when they are used in other works of literature.
Take the figure “euphemism”, a euphmism is a euphemism, whether it is used in the Scriptures (such as in the case when using the term “sleep” for “dead”) or whether it is used in some other work in some other context.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
About being alive or dead reminds me of Genesis 2:17.
When people die on this earth, separated from us, since birth
brings about a temporary change, till when they die, things rearrange.
This mystery about life and death….One wonders about spirit and breath.
Hi Wolfgang,
The transfiguration presents absolutely no problem for Wolfgang’s view that teaches that prior to the resurrection the dead are dead. Moses and Elijah are special cases: Elijah was raised to heaven and never died, and Moses was apparently resurrected sometime after his death. (Hence the dispute between Satan and Michael concerning his body…) Moses and Elijah are types of the future resurrection of all believers since every believer will experience death and resurrection (like Moses) or will be transformed without experiencing death at the return of Christ (like Elijah). All statements in the bible about everyone being dead or nobody being raised refer to the vast majority of mankind who have not been raised and are still dead (i.e. not alive). God, however, can make exceptions for whoever he so chooses, i.e. Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Jesus, etc…
I’ve never seen “figures of speech”, “euphemism”, “metapher”, “metonymy”, or “hendiadys” in the scriptures either, so what is your point? That you like playing word games?
Wolfgang,
Let’s look at the Scriptures:
Although in the passages above it is, I don’t see how “sleep” could have a been a common euphemism for “death” due to the disciples reaction to Christ when He said, “Lazarus is sleeping”. Then Jesus corrected their misunderstanding, which is why I said that it is a figure of speech whose meaning is defined in Scripture.
Notice, too, that Christ also says that He is going to wake Him. In the context, “sleep” is “death” and “wake” is “to resurrect someone from the dead”. “Sleep” is defined directly by Christ’s words and “wake” is defined by the context.
You say that Christ’s usage of “sleep” is merely intended as a euphemism, but with what intention? Would He use two euphemisms just to shield His disciples tender ears? (You know fishermen have such tender ears.) Or is He expressing something about death and the state of the dead (before and after the resurrection)?
Moses and Elijah are dead. The book of Hebrews details that Elijah, Enoch, and many others have all died without the promise. They have fallen asleep because in the future – may it be the near one – they will be awaken.
Regarding Sean’s question at the end of his post about responding to Kevin’s original email about the Transfiguration event…..
I too think Sean did a nice, concise job in providing an answer. It was a VISION of the Kingdom and not a literal happening or any kind of evidence of those OT Patriarchs either being resurrected before Jesus (who wouldn’t be the FIRST FRUITS if they were) or immortal spirits in heaven (running counter to the overwhelming evidence of the Hebrew Scriptures).
But for more detail or just additional source material, I would offer up some of the following excellent articles from Anthony Buzzard.
“The Transfiguration: Grand Preview of the Coming Kingdom of God on Earth” (from Focus on the Kingdom Vol 3 No. 5 Feb 2001)
“Keeping Your Eyes on the Future” (from Focus on the Kingdom Vol 7 No. 5 Feb 2005)
“Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration” (from Focus on the Kingdom Vol 6 No. 1 Oct 2003)
Also there’s a good article from John Ross Schroeder entitled “Thy Kingdom Come” that has some good stuff along the same lines.
Nicely said Joshua!
They’re still taking the long dirt nap as will we all unless Jesus returns during our lifetime!
At the time of the transfiguration, I don’t think Elijah and Moses
had been awaken in the sense of a resurrection. I think they are
still waiting for that to come.
I suppose we can say they were seen in resurrection glory even as
it had not yet happened, just as it was with Jesus.
Hi Joshua,
The disciples “misunderstanding” was that they understood “sleepeth” in its literal sense, whereas Jesus had used it figuratively as a euphemism!! In order to correct their error, he then stated the very same thought literally, and used the term “dead”.
Thus, the meaning of this figure of speech euphemism, (in other words, what a “euphemism” is) is NOT defined by the Scriptures.
What is defined by Scripture, often by the context of words, is whether a word or expression is used literally or whether it is part of a figure of speech. Perhaps this is what you are talking about? In the passage from Joh 11 which you quoted, it is the context which makes clear that Jesus used the figure of speech euphemism when he said that Lazarus was “sleeping” … because Lazarus was not literally “sleeping”, literally speaking he was “dead”. When the disciples did not understand that Jesus was speaking figuratively, he helped them along by stating literally what was the case.
By the way, this same error we read the disciples made — not understanding the use of figures of speech and taking things which are figurative literally (or visa versa) — is surely a major error found in many of today’s interpretations of the Scriptures and theologies that are propounded. When theologians / teachers then do not clarify such points, erronueous doctrines develop and are propounded, and explanations are sought for how such doctrines could be correct when and where points are reached that begin to show that there is something not quite right with such doctrine …
And most of the time, when the error is pointed out, the error is not corrected (by realizing the fundamental mistake at the basis of the doctrine and initiating fundamental change) but instead it is further expounded by more and more “cards being stacked on the card house” giving the impression that the house is nice, solid and beautiful … result is, that the deception continues longer, but the eventual collapse of the card house will nevertheless come.
Cheers
Wolfgang
Hi Karl,
you mention above
I am NOT playing word games …. the matter is instead very serious.
IF indeed you have never seen figures of speech, such as euphemism, metapher, metonymy, hendiadys or many others in the Scriptures, I would suggest to take some time and at least get a basic knowledge of “figures of speech” before continuing with more serious Bible study …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Hello Wolfgang,
Show me where you see the words “figures of speech”, “euphemism”, “metapher”, “metonymy”, or “hendiadys” in the scriptures. What verses?
Hi Karl,
in case, you didn’t notice … I was not speaking about whether or not certain words were used in the Bible, but was talking about that which those terms describe and represent being found or not found in the Bible
I am amazed you somehow seem to have missed the whole point …. but then, perhaps I should not be surprised
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Hi Wolfgang,
Just checking….
Ok, so now that we got the word games over with, is “conditional immortality” found in the bible?
Hi wolfgang,
Lest you start another word game let me rephrase my last question:
Does the bible teach that one can obtain everlasting life provided that they meet the condition of being a believer in Jesus?
Hi Karl,
no word games on my part intended …
BUT your initial question and your rephrased question are actually different questions … one deals with “condition” and “immortality”, the other with a “condition” and “obtaining everlasting life”.
It seems to me that YOU are the one who is playing word games here … and that most likely without even noticing it
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Hi Wolfgang,
More games and no answers…
Just a note: There’s a misunderstanding. I wasn’t saying “euphemism” (what is it) is defined in the Scriptures. What Jesus meant when He used “sleep” as a euphemism for “dead” is defined; sleep = dead in Jesus’ euphemism.