Do the Saints Go to Heaven When They Die? – Part I
August 9th, 2009 by Ron S.
I ran across another good ol’ Conditional Immortality paper, so I thought why not keep the theme of my post from last week going? However since this paper has a natural break with two main areas, I will separate it into two posts – a Part I and a Part II. Here’s Part I.
Do the Saints Go to Heaven When They Die?
The Question Scripturally Considered
Part I.
Do the Saints Go to Heaven When They Die?
What a question! Does anyone doubt the doctrine?
Yes: thousands doubt it; and their number is increasing every day.
But have they any good reasons for doubting it?
Yes: many good reasons, a few of which are given below.
1. It subverts the doctrine of a future resurrection.
Paul makes the resurrection indispensable to a future life. Without it they who are “fallen asleep in Christ as perished” (1 Cor. 15:18). How perished if in heaven? He adds, “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable” (v. 19). Such argument is void it we can have a future life without a resurrection. Hear Paul again: “If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me if the dead rise not?” (v. 32). The force of this argument is destroyed if saints go to heaven when they die. Certainly that would be advantage enough without any resurrection. The apostles gave great stress to the doctrine of a future resurrection; but multitudes in our day feel little or no interest in the doctrine; and some have lost sight of it altogether. No wonder! If the saints can live in glory without a resurrection what need is there of one?
2. It ignores a future day of judgment.
If men go to heaven and hell at death, a future day of judgment would be a solemn farce. If men are consigned to their eternal destinies at death, then decision has been made, and is already being carried into execution. And this nullifies any future judgment. No tribunal ever institutes a second trial, unless there is some doubt as to the justness of the first. God will never begin to execute a doubtful decision. When God decides he decides right. Neither will he execute a decision before it is rendered. When will it be rendered? Ans. He “shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom” (2 Tim. 4:2). John the Revelator places “the time of the dead, that they should be judged,” under the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15-18). The dead are raised before they are judged (Rev. 20:12).
3. It gives the prophets and the saints their reward before the time.
Rev. 11:18 reads: “The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou (God) shouldst give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;” and this is placed under the seventh trumpet by John (v. 15). What right have we to outrage God’s revealed plan by teaching that the saints get their reward “before the time” (1 Cor. 4:5). “Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14). “The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. 16:27).
4. It takes the saints to their reward instead of Christ’s bringing their reward to them.
“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Rev. 22:12).
5. It makes the place of reward in heaven, while the Scriptures make it on earth.
“Behold the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth” (Prov. 11:31). Read Ps. 37:9-11, 22, 27; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 5:10; 11:15.
6. It contradicts the Bible doctrine that the dead are unconscious.
“The dead know not anything” (Eccl. 9:5). “Their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished” (v. 6). “In that very day his thoughts perish” (Ps. 146:3, 4). “In death there is no remembrance of thee” (Ps. 6:5).
7. It contradicts the Bible doctrine that the dead are asleep.
“David fell on sleep” (Acts 13:36). “Some are fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:6). “Fallen asleep in Christ” (1 Cor. 15:18). “The first fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). “Concerning them which are asleep” (1 Thess. 4:13). “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Many that sleep in the dust” (Dan. 12:2). “And when he had said this he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60). This sleep is broken by the resurrection. “I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust” (Isa. 26:19). “I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness” (Ps. 17:15). “Many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose” etc., etc. The Bible is full of the sleep of the dead.
8. It makes Christ’s coming to receive his people utterly needless. Christ makes it needful.
“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am there ye may be also” (John 14:3).
9. It makes death a friend and the “gate to glory.”
Paul calls death an “enemy” (1 Cor. 15:26). Hezekiah calls it “the gate to the grave” (Isa. 38:10). God calls the realm of death “The land of the enemy” (Jer. 31:16). God is going to “swallow up death in victory” (Isa. 25:8). And this will be brought to pass at the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:54). If death is indeed a friend, why do good men so vigorously resent it? “You treat no other friend so ill.”
10. It is positively denied by Christ and his apostles.
Jesus says: “Where I go, thither ye cannot come” (John 7:34; 13:33, 36). Yet some teach that they got there nearly as quickly as he did, and that the thief got there just as quick; and that some even got there before he did. John writes: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but ht that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13). This is spoken to negate some one’s doctrine. Whose is it? Not even Enoch and Elijah have gone to that heaven where God dwells. Jesus is the only man who has ever gone there, and he is more than man. He now dwells in “light which no man can approach unto” (1 Tim. 6:16).
11. It contradicts the word of God as to where men really do go at death.
God told Adam where he should go when he died: “Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return” (Gen. 3:19). Webster says that “thou” is the pronoun used in addressing persons. “His breath goeth forth, HE returneth unto his earth” (Ps. 146:3, 4). “Man lieth down” (Job 14:12). “Thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust” (Ps. 104:29). “All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again” (Eccl. 3:20). “There is no work, nor knowledge, nor device, nor wisdom, in the grave wither thou goest” (Eccl. 9:10).
If you will read the Scriptures carefully you will discover that the words which denote the personality are always applied to the physical man, and never to the breath or spirit of life. Hence we must conclude that the physical man is the real man, and that the spirit of life from God, is that which causes him to live.
12. It sanctions Satan’s falsehood by teaching that man does not surely die.
“Man, thou shalt never die.” —R. H. Dana.
“Thou shalt not surely die.” —Satan (Gen. 3:4)
Hi Ron S.,
just so hopefully no one here has a wrong idea: I do believe that without resurrection from the dead having become a reality, no dead are in some way alive in heaven.
I do have some questions after reading the article by C-M.Keach above that are relevant to the topic:
Question 1:
If a statement in the Scriptures speaks of an event or action as happening in the future, does that mean of necessity that when we read this statement today, it is therefore still future?
Question 2:
Does the Bible even teach that the dead are unconscious (that is, alive but without conscious awareness)? Does the Bible even teach that the dead are asleep?
It seems to me that the Bible teaches that a dead person is dead …
Yes, it also states that in death there is no consciousness or awareness, etc. but that is not really the same as saying “a dead person is unconscious” just as one can’t claim that an “unconscious” person is “dead” …
Yes, the Scriptures do use the term “sleep” in a figure of speech called euphemism for “dead”, but that is not the same as saying “the dead are asleep” just as on can’t say that a person who is “asleep” is “dead” …
I’d be in favor for being more accurate in communicating Biblical truths, and for not falling for trying to make a nice “catch phrase” which may look fine but which isn’t true
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang makes some good points.
If the dead are asleep in the traditional conditional immortality sense, how do we know that it is a “dreamless” (i.e., unconscious sleep). Does the Bible say this in any way? Are we (i.e., conditionalists) not making the assumption that it is a dreamless sleep. We all view the scriptures through presuppositional lenses.
I’m with Wolfgang in that the dead are dead …
-Tim-
Hey Wolfgang,
I actually agree with you on Question #2. I think Scripture does use “sleep” as a euphemism for “dead”. I’ve heard traditional immortal soul believers make fun of conditional immortality believers because they misunderstand (or think we misunderstand) the sleep metaphor. The dead are not in some kind of actual sleep. In reality they are non-existent except in the mind of God. But God can and does remember us (as Job pointed out) and can resurrect us back into existence if he so chooses. Sleep is just a simple way to illustrate that between the point of death and God resurrecting us, nothing is known or remembered. Consciousness is off because we are off/not existent. But when God brings us back into existence, we will have no idea if we were “off” for 5 minutes for 5000 years.
As for your Question #1, yes I also agree that just because something was future when written down in Scripture, does not require it to still be future today in our time. But when it comes to the Resurrection of the Dead and Christ’s return to establish the Kingdom of God here on earth, those things ARE still future because they simply have not happened yet. Jesus did NOT do those things in AD 70. But you already knew that would be my answer.
Ron S.
Hi Ron S.,
thanks for the note … a quick note about one of your expressions
There is the problem: I would say that the Scriptures do NOT use a “sleep” as “a metapher” in these contexts, but use “sleep” as “a euphemism”.
Misunderstanding “sleep” as being a metapher in these contexts almost results in the same errors as misunderstanding “sleep” in some way of form literally in these contexts.
More perhaps later …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
In Psalm 146:3-4, the psalmist writes, “Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help. His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; in that very day his plans [thoughts, KJV] perish.
His Word makes it very clear that at death there is dreamlike state, no awareness of what is going on in the “living world.” The dead are just that, dead, lifeless, awaiting the resurrection. To believe otherwise is to accept the teaching of Satan, Plato, and others who would lead you to think we have something immmortal within us.
His Word makes it clear that at death there is NO…………. please accept my apology for the omittance.
It seems to me that the vision of Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus wasn’t just some kind of thing for entertainment, but it actually was teaching something about how things really are.
It seems to me that upon death when the body and mind are dead
that the spirit goes to Christ in heaven. It is in this spirit which we
have received through faith in him that they have their “being” with
Jesus until the future resurrection of their bodies. Being with him in
the heavenly realm, no doubt there are some “judgments” but not
the final future judgment.
The body and mind of these people shows us that they are most
certainly dead, even though their spirit, which they are connected
with is with the Lord in heaven and this spirit is most certainly alive
in God. The new man is in that spirit, even as their old man is dead
physically.
The dead are dead and remain dead till the resurrection. At the resurrection they are joined with their spirit which has been with
God in heaven and they become a new walking creation.
That’s what it seems like to me.
I do not believe Moses and Elijah received their resurrection yet,
but they spoke with Jesus, and God made this a sight to be seen
for some of the Lord’s disciples at the Transfiguration.
The Transfiguration reminds me of how angels of God seem to not
have bodies, yet have been seen as men in the Bible.
In the resurrection we have heard by Jesus that they are like angels, but what about after they have passed from this life, but before the resurrection? Are they not still in some sense like angels?
That’s what it seems like to me.
if the mind is dead, how does one think?
Hi Ray,
you mention above
Indeed … I agree that without the resurrection having become a reality, dead people are dead.
Thus, I would consider the various denominational teachings about the dead “not really” or “not totally” being dead but somehow “spiritually” or “partially” being alive in heaven, and that without the resurrection having become a reality, as false doctrine and false teaching.
Another question altogether is this: After the resurrection having become a reality, what happens then to those mortals who will live at the time of his coming and also afterwards and who believe in the Lord Jesus and at the end of their days on earth die? They apparently would not be going to hades, the realm of the dead, since with that will have been destroyed at the time of the resurrection becoming a reality when “death and hades are cast into the lake of fire” … will they “be changed in a moment” and “caught up in the clouds to ever be with the Lord” (cp 1Th 4:13ff and 1Co 15:51ff) ?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
I’m not sure of all the events of the end times. It’s something I’ve
never seen put together in a way that I would like to understand
it clearly. I would like to see it explained clearly so I could understand it.
The scripture teaches us that because the sprit of Christ dwells in
us, we are not in the flesh but in the spirit. As one dies when he is
in the spirit it is only his body that dies. He must then go with his
spirit that is eternal life, seems to me.
It’s a mystery how we can speak in the spirit by speaking in tongues and not even move our mouths.
I suppose those saints that have died have gone on in the spirit
of Christ while they are dead, for they are no longer with their
bodies which have died. We say that they have died, for we knew
them in their bodies. In that sense, they have died and they are
dead. They will not walk and talk in that way again till the resurrection and then they will have inherited a glorious body, something I believe has not happened yet. It’s something we look
forward to.
That’s what it looks like to me.
Ray,
Dead people do not know anything. They are incapable of doing anything or even thinking because the moment they breathe their last breath, their thoughts perish. (Ecclesiastes 9.5, 10; Psalm 146.4). This is why Jesus needs to return to precipitate the resurrection. The escape from death is resurrection not floating away–that’s paganism not Christianity.
Randy,
you mention above
Does the psalmist express with this words “in that very day his plans [thoughts] perish” that from the moment of death a person “can’t think anymore”? or does the psalmist express that with death “any thoughts or plans the person may have had for their life perish” ?
I would think that the latter is the case, when considering the immediate context of “do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man …:” etc …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Ray,
You keep referring to the spirt going to heaven with God when we die…but isn’t the spirit God’s in the first place, it is not our own spirit but the Holy Spirit that was received after Jesus was assended into heaven, there was no Holy spirit before Christ so what happened to those people that where living before Jesus when they died? The spirit is not our own but God’s so like it says our bodies are dead they do not have anything that functions including our minds. Also people who do not follow Christ and God do not have the Holy spirit in them so what spirit do they have?… and does that spirit go to Heaven or hell…the way you describe this is much more confusing than what the scriptures say in the bible it is much more clear as to what happens there are many many times in the bible that mentions death and much more for the ressurection. The only person that is mentioned in the bible that was assended into heaven was Jesus and it does not say his spirit it says HE assended that means mind body and soul…it just does not make sense what you are saying to me? What information do you have to support your theories???? (in the bible that is)
I believe Moses who died knew what he was talking about when
he spoke with Jesus at the Mt. of Transfiguration. – Matthew 17.
Luke 16
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
no comment nessesary
I believe Jesus was in the world and things concerning him were found through the fear of the Lord, the spirit of wisdom which God
gave to anyone who received it by his conditions. Jesus was found
by men through that spirit which is holy, though they did not know
him by the name “Jesus”. David knew of him as his Lord. (Psalm 2
for example)
I believe Jesus was hidden in the mystery of God, being the mystery of God himself.
Those that are born again are not in the flesh but in the spirit. (Romans 8 )
Even those who lived prior to his coming in the flesh, were led by
his spirit for the spirit of wisdom is the spirit of God and there is but
one spirit. More of the spirit of God was to come and was given at
Petecost.
I believe even those who were led by the spirit of wisdom were
the sons of God, though not having the fullness of sonship that we
have received. See Romans 8:14 which speaks of those who are
led by the spirit of God as being sons of God.
When I think about these things I realize there is more to the gospel than I had known. I know there is much more to learn.
When men began to call upon the name of God, I believe men began to walk by his spirit, for often it’s worshiping men of faith
that receive the spiritual things of God who freely gives that which
is available at the time.
Here’s something to consider: Who was Job’s rock that poured him
out rivers of oil? (Job 29) Job confessed him, though he had not seen him in the flesh.
Ray,
you are changing the subject…stay on track
Stacey,
you say above
To what are you referring with this “it (the scriptures) says our bodies are dead”? Does Scripture not say that “so and so” (that is, the person as a whole!) died or is dead? Does Scripture say that only a person’s “body is dead” when the person dies?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Robert,
ok … so then, what does the statement mean (without a comment)?
Are there different “burying” places (one of them being “Abraham’s bosom”, the other being the place where the rich man was buried)?
Or was only one of these “buried” (the rich man), while the beggar was not buried at all but carried away by angels?
Since the verses following this verse in Lk 16 depict both beggar and rich man as seemingly alive and conscious, what does this verse mean when it says of both of them that they “died”?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
no my comment wasnt necessary.
yours is welcome.
there is only one burial mentioned with the other going to be with Abraham who should be dead.
this whole parable speaks of 3 places ,those on earth, place of torment and a place of comfort existing at the same time when we know the place of torment exist after the kingdom when God judges the dead except for the false prophet and the antichrist who are cast into before the kingdom
when you die does time even exist.
Wolfgang
keep in mind this is before Jesus’s death , ressurection and return to setup the kingdom.
it is without any future references
Robert,
I did keep in mind that this was before Jesus’ resurrection … but others seem to think that folks like Moses and Elijah were exceptions to what is otherwise plainly stated in Scripture, namely that all die and that Jesus was the first to be resurrected to eternal life in God’s presence.
You seem to think that the beggar also was already made alive immediately after he had died … thus Jesus would not be the first to have overcome death.
You mention that the story in Lk 16 is “a parable” … thus I wonder why you would think that the part which make up the parable are literal actual events?
What you are writing concerning this topic is rather confusing … I would think that it would be very much necessary to provide a commentary / explanation of your thoughts which would clarify the various contradictions to other sections of Scripture …
Cheers
Wolfgang
The subject being “Do saints go to heaven when they die?”,
It seems to me that their bodies usually stay on this earth and
return to dust, but their spirits that are from heaven know that
they do not belong here, so they go to heaven where they came
from.
Wolfgang
Is this really a parable, most parables lack detail that this one provides.
you believe the kingdom is now which accounts for the living being on earth and those being comforted being somewhere other but how can you explained the torment of the rich man.
i believe the kingdom is still to come with the judgement of the dead coming at the end of it.
but this places things before either of our beliefs.
i also know Jesus’s was the first begotten of the dead but these were Jesus’s words written by Luke.
Hi Robert,
you mention
I thought the Scriptures testified that there would be no end to the Lord’s kingdom and that it would be an everlasting kingdom (cp Gabriel’s words in Lk 1:33, as well as 2Pe 1:11 , etc …), but you mention here that “at the end of it” the judgment of dead will happen ?? Your comment seems rather confusing ….
And so what then are you trying to say with this statement? Was Jesus the first to be resurrected from the dead or was he not? Was Jesus telling the truth? was Luke writing down the truth? … If so, could it be that your idea that someone else had been resurrected before Jesus is actually the problem?
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
i made it perfectly clear Jesus was the first beggotten of the dead. i find that these verses are written and translated properly.while Jesus had the means to lie these words were commanded by God who cant lie and were giving to teach us something.
So what does this teach us.
Is the place of comfort the Kingdom of God and is the place of torment hell if so why does Abraham rule the Kingdom not Jesus.
why would Jesus speak of this at all
Robert,
as I already mentioned previously, your comments are confusing. For example, from where would you even get the idea that Abraham was ruling the kingdom? on what grounds are you equating “place of comfort” with “the Kingdom of God”? etc etc etc ….
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
i am sorry you are confused, but it is not my doing its your own.
i am not equating the place of comfort with the Kingdom of God which Jesus will rule for 1000 years afterwards then will be the new heaven and earth which God himself will rule.
this speaks of a place which exist till the beginning of the kingdom, not of heaven or of the kingdom of God and existed even prior to Jesus’s ressurection in which he went to the right hand of God who is in heaven. does this speak of a sleep without knowlege.
quit worrying about what i wrote and give me your take on this
If the place where the poor man is comforted under the coat of
Abraham, which is next to his heart, (or bosom, Luke 16:22)
after leaving this earth upon his death, is not a part of the kingdom
of God, what could it be?
It seems clear to me that the poor man who was received of God
and placed in the comfort and blessing of Abraham entered into the kingdom of God, for is there any other place known to man where one may find such safety, peace, or abundant provision
after one’s decease?
And will not Jesus who delivered us present us to the Father,
as we are his inheritance whom he has redeemed through his
own Son? Are we not the property and estate of the King?
There are so many wonderful resources in the archives of this blog site! Thanks for posting this Ron, in 2009. It’s very good, and I especially like
#9. It makes death a friend and the “gate to glory.”
So often at someone’s death, they comfort the mourners with “It’s okay. We know he is in a better place.” and “She’s with Jesus now.”
Death HAS become a Christian’s “friend”, because they believe death is not really death, but life in heaven. It’s such a subtle twist, that takes the hope of the resurrection and turns it into a mute point… an anti-climax of God’s story for humankind. We, Christians, have taken what God has promised and written down for us, and rewrote it, more to our own liking, but in doing so, we ruin the last chapter, so it becomes less thrilling to imagine seeing Christ for the 1st time, since we will have already been living up in heaven with him, maybe for centuries, before it’s time to go back, drive by, and pick up a new body, to return to heaven. I think I like God’s version better.
Thanks Angela! And what a great observation of your own! I couldn’t agree more.
Yes Satan’s original lie of not truly dying at death was swallowed hook, line, & sinker by most all of humanity throughout time. God’s written word pointed out the error, but the influence of Plato was too heavy an influence on the Greek educated early Christians that followed the era of the Apostles. They soon twisted the truth of Scripture to fit their philosophical backgrounds.
If you think about, its a great plan the devil schemed. You discount the return of the Messiah and embrace death as a bus driver that takes you to that “better place”. The whole Kingdom Message of the earth being made right and God’s just rule finally coming to be is swept under the rug by the clever hoax of an “immortal soul”.
Ron S.
That is a great article. It seems to cover just about everything about why belief in an immortal soul is not biblical. Unfortunately I was not able to find “Part – 2″ of the article. I tried typing “Do the Saints Go to Heaven When They Die? – Part 2″ into the search field and all that came up was the “What day did Jesus Die?” article…
Jesus surely died but he went to heaven.
For the Christian, the real man is the new creation, the new man that is in him, which is Christ, the Last Adam. Because their soul is connected to Christ, they are taken into the presence of God by the Spirit of God which is in them. Those born of God are in the spirit and not the flesh. It’s the flesh that goes to the dust.
Enoch and Elijah are in heaven. They are a part of Christ. They believed God, they walked with him whom they did not see, even their Messiah who was in the world by the spirit. Jesus communicated with them.
Though death is an enemy, those born again by the spirit of God and are saved by Christ overcome it as soon as they die.
These things do not contradict the resurrection of the dead when Christ comes with his saints.
Right as Jesus died on the cross, wasn’t his spirit in the Father’s hands? And isn’t the Father in heaven? And wasn’t he in heaven with the Father then? And didn’t he decend back to this earth to be raised up, and raise up in his resurrected body? And wasn’t it the gospel that was about Jesus in so much of what he did, and was done to him? Isn’t it the good news that’s all around Jesus?
DT,
Here’s the link to Part II: http://kingdomready.org/blog/2009/10/03/do-the-saints-go-to-heaven-when-they-die-part-ii/
I’ll also add it to the body of the main post.
Thanks.
Ron S.
Thanks for the link. The second article is a little more complicated then the first one (above). I can now understand why Ray and others might not see it the way we do. But, I think it all boils down to what Angela said, “…it takes the hope of the resurrection and turns it into a mute point… an anti-climax of God’s story for humankind.”
Why would anyone be looking forward to the 2nd. coming of Christ, the resurrection and the coming day of judgment, if it means we will have to leave the paradise of being in heaven and return to the earth and receive human bodies again???
I don’t see how people can reconcile these two “very different” things…
I remember how Dean Braxton talked about how he didn’t want to leave heaven and come back into his body here upon this earth.
He said that in heaven everything is so right. That’s why he didn’t want to leave. It was all so good. Everything he needed was in Jesus, I suspect. In the presence of God it must have been that that was all he would ever want.
Maybe it’s our persepective while we are on earth that we hope for the resurrection of our bodies, not knowing what it is like to be in heaven, to have our souls in heaven by the holy spirit.
But the Bible does talk about the resurrection of our mortal bodies and isn’t it at the time of the return of Christ to this earth?
With God there always seems to be something more.
The Edward Acton lecture that is over at the “Death is Sleep” section of the kingdomready.org site is by far the best presentation on the subject I’ve heard so far. Here it is:
http://www.kingdomready.org/topics/audio.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kingdomready.us%2Faudio%2Fdeath%2FEdward+Acton+–+Platonic+Christianity
Personally, after dealing and studying popular Far Eastern religions (Chinese folk religions, Daoism, Buddhism) and American-made ones (Mormonism), I think the clarity with which the Scriptures speak about death are a kind of safeguard for us. We don’t have to believe stories of people seeing some kind of soul vapor claiming to be a deceased “saint”. I don’t have to fool with ghosts (any legitimate ones are likely demons).
For example, the entire anti-Christ system of Mormonism is founded on the premise that the dead are NOT dead, but instead are disembodied souls that can be communicated with (though Mormons say the entities that reportedly appeared were in their “resurrected bodies” [Note: The mass resurrection hasn't happened yet! Christ alone has a resurrected body and immortality at this point in history.]). Joseph Smith reportedly came into contact with something like 16 different “personages”, like John the Baptist, Peter, and others. But, from my perspective, I can discount every one of those encounters. If he did see anything (and given his past history, I tend not to believe a word of it), it couldn’t have been any of the people he reported. Why? They’re dead.
Was not that encounter on the Mount of Transfiguration a “vision” only?
Moses and Elijah were no more real than the sheet that Peter saw in Acts 11:5, where the same Greek word “orama” (3705) is used.
The points of Jesus’ parables are always stated near the end of them. I think the purpose of Jesus’ parable about the rich man and Lazarus was this, “And he said unto [the rich man], If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” (Luke 16:31)
Are not people who make doctrines out of details missing the point of the parable (Jesus pointing to His own resurrection from the dead and the stubbornness of Israel)?
From my perspective, the ease with which the parables could be remembered was intended for that very purpose — especially from the mouth of the Master Teacher, the Lord Jesus. It was a fantastic teaching technique. He was using the parables to “wrap” His messages. The details weren’t the important parts. The final statements were.
Any thoughts?
Joshua
When Jesus died on the cross, he became absent from the body and present with God didn’t he?
Joshua,
You asked, “He was using the parables to ‘wrap’ His messages. The details weren’t the important parts. The final statements were. Any thoughts?”
I think you are correct. I also believe that a parable is like a thousand words. If you can understand what the parable is saying you can use it in a multitude of different situations that come up in your day to day life. I think the proud and arrogant cannot understand the teachings behind these parables. Y’shua said that God has “hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children.”
I believe that if you humble yourself like a little child and ask God, he will help you to understand the meaning of Y’shua’s parables. God freely gives wisdom to those who ask…
Ray,
I don’t see anything in the scriptures that say that Y’shua was immediately present with God after his death (prior to his resurrection)…
Joshua,
Excellent points! Thanks for sharing.
The tearing of the temple veil speaks something to me. Didn’t that happen right upon his death on the cross? That too is like a parable.
But what really does it say? It happened before the resurrection. It happened before the ascension. (Matt 27:51, Mark 15:38)
I remember a song we used to sing. Some of the words went like this:
Lo, in the grave he lay
Jesus my saviour
Waiting the coming day
Jesus my Lord.
Up from the grave he arose!
Q. Where was Jesus when he was waiting, and Where was he
going to come from?
Sean, thanks for your kind words. And thanks for making the Edward Acton lecture available. That is an audio treasure! And the article above is a great one, too.
By the way, the last point of the article should make us take notice. The doctrine of the immortality of the soul can trace its origins right back to the Garden of Eden and the lie of the serpent. Most of Christendom and the majority of other religions depend on that teaching to form the basis of their teachings.
Look at Buddhism for example. The concepts of reincarnation, karma, past lives, etc. It can all be discounted by taking the Scriptural view and definition of death seriously. (In fact, Jesus Himself appears to have addressed both karma, reincarnation, and past lives in the New Testament — demonstrating that they are false doctrines. Let’s see if any of our brothers and sisters here can find it!)
Ready. Set. Go!
(It’s there. Really.)
Ray,
You asked, “The tearing of the temple veil speaks something to me. Didn’t that happen right upon his death on the cross?”
It seems to me that you are saying that Y’shua himself, right after his death, tore the temple veil. I don’t see anything in the bible that would lead me to believe this. It seems to me that at Y’shua’s death, God decided to abandon the Holy of Holies and the temple, and excommunicating the temple priests and the leaders of the temple for their participation in the murder of His holy Messiah/Son and our beloved Savior.
I don’t see this as evidence that Y’shua was anywhere but asleep (dead) in his tomb awaiting his promised resurrection…
Concerning Christians, I’ve heard that there is a part of the soul that is immortal and that there is a part of the soul that isn’t. I suppose that a part of the soul has to die.
I suppose that some might see the tearing of the veil as a sign that God was angry at the entire religious system and that’s about all there is to that, but to me there is something more.
When I think of it, I think of Jesus going into the holiest of all, in heaven, for at the cross he commended his spirit to God at the end of his life on earth.
It doesn’t seem to fit to me, to perceive that Jesus tore the veil and walked into the holy place through that particular entrance or anything like that. I tend to think of it more like God tore the veil as Jesus entered in.
I often wonder about Lazarus whom Jesus raised from the dead.
He had been dead for awhile, four days in fact. (John 11:39)
A lot of people came to see Lazarus later on (John 12:9) and I wonder if they would have asked him questions about what happened to him. I wonder if he remembered anything about those days. All I really know is that there were chief priests that consulted to kill Lazarus because by reason of him, many of the Jews went away and believed on Jesus.