The State of the Dead (Part 1)
January 4th, 2010 by Mark C.
(The following series is from my website, God’s Kingdom First.)
Overview
One of the doctrines I was taught in the ministry I was involved with for many years was that the dead are not currently alive in another realm somewhere, but are unconscious in the grave, and will remain so until the return of Christ. This is one of the few things I was taught that actually turns out to be correct Biblically. Those who are of similar background may recognize most of the points made here, although there are a few differences. However, those from a mainstream “Christian” background may find this section quite challenging. I only ask that you consider the Scriptures carefully, and don’t let preconceived notions blind you to the simple straightforward reading of the Bible.
As pointed out in another article, God said that the penalty for man’s sin was death, and Satan directly contradicted Him by telling Eve, “Ye shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4). The same lie, that when you die you’re not really dead, has been propounded for centuries. The majority of non-Christians believe there is some form of life after death, whether it be reincarnation, survival as a “ghost,” or becoming an “angel.” Our culture is full of references to these things. Even in the cartoons we watched as children, when a character died he grew wings and a halo and rose into the sky playing a harp. It is so prevalent, it’s nearly impossible to escape it. But where did these images come from? Are they in the Bible, or did they come from another source?
Those ideas are common among non-Christians, but most people who call themselves Christians also believe in survival after death. They call it going to heaven, but is this idea in the Bible? The notion that a person goes either to heaven or hell immediately upon death is based on the idea that man has an immortal soul and will spend eternity in one place or the other. But the Bible says that only God has immortality (I Timothy 6:16) and that it will be conveyed upon believers as a gift, in the future (Romans 2:7; I Corinthians 15:53-54). The time that this will happen is described as a resurrection in many places in the Bible. The resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the cornerstone of the Christian faith, was a foretaste of the resurrection to come, Jesus Christ being the firstfruits from the dead (I Corinthians 15:20,23).
We discussed in In the Beginning as well as The Gap Theory how death was not part of God’s original plan, but came as the result of man’s sin. Most Christians agree with that statement, but then say that man has an immortal soul that survives death. When a loved one dies, they say “he’s with the Lord now” or “he’s gone on to a better place” or “he’s in heaven.” This is inconsistent with the Biblical view of death, for if it were the point of passage into the presence of God in heaven, it would be a welcome friend. Yet death is described as an enemy (I Corinthians 15:26). Death is the end of life, and only through resurrection will life be restored in the future, when Christ returns.
Most Christians will agree with the view that Jesus is going to return to earth in the future, but they generally hold that believers who have died are with him now in heaven. However the Bible describes the state of those who have died as “sleep” and says that they will remain unconscious until the resurrection in the future. There is a serious discrepancy here between traditional beliefs and what the Bible actually says. Most Christians will misquote one particular Scripture, saying that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” But if you read that verse (II Corinthians 5:8), you’ll find it does not say that (see Common Proof Texts). If the dead are already with Jesus in heaven, what would be the point of a resurrection in the future? And if those who died are already consigned to either heaven or hell, what is the purpose or meaning of the future resurrection to judgment?
Definition of the Soul
In discussing whether or not man has an immortal soul, we must first define what a “soul” is. The definition of soul, according to the Hebrew Scriptures, is a living being, or a person. I was taught in the past that man’s soul was his life force (that which makes him alive) and that his spirit was that part of man which was created in God’s image, and which allowed him communion with God. It was this spirit, I was taught, that made man unique from the animals. The supposed distinction between body, soul, and spirit, as well as the supposed distinction between formed, made, and created (See Hebrew Words in the Gap Theory article) was said to be the foundation for understanding the nature of man, as well as the holy spirit. But this is not quite accurate from the Scriptures.
Genesis 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [nashamah] of life [chai]; and man became a living soul [nephesh].
So the soul (nephesh) is not the “breath of life” that made man alive. Two Hebrew words that are both translated either “breath” or “spirit” are nashamah and ruach. They are used interchangeably in the English phrase, “breath of life,” in the different places where it occurs. Nashamah is used in Genesis 2:7 and 7:22, while ruach is used in Genesis 6:17 and 7:15. So the “breath of life” is the spirit or life force that makes man and animals alive. God breathed into man’s nostrils the spirit of life and man became a living soul. Notice it does not say that God put a soul in man. It says man became a living soul. The word “soul” is nephesh in Hebrew and it means simply a conscious being animated by breath life.
Animals are described as “living souls” as well. In Genesis 1:21 and 24, the phrase “living creature” (chai nephesh in Hebrew) is literally a living soul. In Genesis 1:20 the phrase “the moving creature that hath life” is translated “swarms of living creatures” in other versions (RSV, NRSV, NASB). Even the New King James Version (NKJV) says, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures.” A soul is a living creature. But a soul can also be dead. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18: 4 and 20). When people died, they would be called dead souls (Leviticus 21:11; Numbers 6:6; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; and other places, where the word nephesh occurs, although it is translated “body” in most English versions).
There are some cases where it is said that a person “has” soul, but it is in the sense of having life, not in the sense of his soul being a distinct part of him that can be separated. The word soul is also used in a variety of other ways referring to a person’s life (“as my soul liveth”) or to the person himself (“I said to my soul…” means “I said to myself” or “My soul desires it” means “I myself desire it”). But the thing that must be emphasized here is that the word soul is never used as an entity that is housed in a body and released to live on at death. Such an idea was not a part of Hebrew thinking in Old Testament times.
This is also true of the Greek word psuche in its Biblical usage (though not in the secular use of the word). Psuche is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word nephesh. Nigel Turner writes the following in Christian Words (T&T Clark):
We must concede that the Biblical Greek psuche means “physical life” … Alongside this conception…there appears in Biblical Greek the meaning “person”…the life of man, his will, emotions, and above all, his “self.” If a man gained all the world only to lose his psuche (soul), it represents a loss of himself–not a part of him. When there were added to the church about 3000 psuchai (Acts 2:41), whole men were added. The fear coming upon every psuche was upon every person (Acts 2:43). Every psuche must be subject to the state (Rom. 13:1), and so throughout the New Testament (Acts 3:23; Romans 2:9; I Corinthians 15:45; I Peter 3:20; II Peter 2:14; Revelation 16:3).
Another example that can be added to that list is Revelation 20:4, which refers to “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus.” This does not refer to disembodied souls, as many understand this passage. It simply refers to those persons who had been beheaded, and it is describing them being raised, to live and reign with Christ. Verse 6 refers to this as a resurrection, implying that they were dead, not previously existing in a disembodied state.
We saw from Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul when he was infused with the breath of life. This breath, or spirit, of life is common to man and animals. (Not to be confused with the spirit of God, which is the same Hebrew word, ruach, but identified as God’s spirit in the context.) Animals are identified as having the breath or spirit of life in Genesis 7:15. “And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath (ruach) of life (chai).” Both man and animals have a common fate, according to Ecclesiastes.
Ecclesiastes 3:
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [ruach]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit [ruach] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [ruach] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Verse 21 is sometimes misread as a description of man going to heaven when he dies. Chapter 12, verse 7 is similarly misread.
Ecclesiastes 12:
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [ruach] shall return unto God who gave it.
Does this verse say that man goes to heaven when he dies? Proper understanding of this verse depends on understanding the definition of spirit. It is not referring to man’s consciousness, nor is it speaking of his soul (in the sense of his life). It is the “breath of life,” the life force that makes him alive. Remember that God breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. That life force was added to a body and it became a living creature. Death can be seen as the reverse of this process. When a soul dies, the breath is gone (“he took his last breath”). The body returns to the earth, and the life force returns to God who gave it. But this life force is not man’s consciousness. If it were, then all living creatures would be said to go to God at death, whether saved or unsaved. This would even contradict the other fundamental doctrines of those who profess to believe in conscious life for believers in heaven after death.
To Be Continued…
Jesus only has imortality. In heaven there is only one. All who are alive with him are of him. They are alive with him. To be with Jesus
is to be alive. There is nothing dead or dying in heaven. Everything and everyone in heaven has life because of Jesus. Those there are in the spirit of God. They are not in their earthly bodies anymore. Their bodies have been left here on this earth, most of them having been put in the ground, but they that are in Christ who have died, are present with him in heaven.
I’ve read about these things above in Dean Braxton’s book In Heaven! Experiencing The Throne Of God.
You should be able to find his book on the Internet by searching his name. It’s a new book that is less than a year old.
Dean Braxton died and went to heaven. He had many intercessory
prayers going on for him. The Lord showed him many things and sent him back, for it was not yet his time. He told us how he didn’t want to come back for though heaven was so wonderful, he mostly
didn’t want to leave the presence of the Lord. His testimony is true.
One good read should convince you.
From our perspective (concerning a view from one who is on earth)
those who have died in Christ are asleep, for their bodies do not move and we are not able to interact with them as we had, but those who are with the Lord are most certainly alive.
Dean talked about how his spirit knew exactly where to go at the time he died and immediately he was there.
Sorry, Ray, but that is completely contrary to what the Bible says. There is nothing about going to heaven when you die, and no scripture to back up the claim that the person is alive in heaven even if their bodies are asleep. The Bible does not speak of a soul that exists somewhere separate from the body. When someone dies, the whole person dies, not just a part of them. The idea of an immortal soul comes from Greek philosophy, not from the Bible.
As you will see in upcoming posts, Satan is always promoting counterfeits to further convince people of his original lie, “Thou shalt not surely die.” We are told not to believe every spirit but try them. There are lying spirits and counterfeit visions and revelations. In order to not be duped, you have to let the Bible be your standard.
Mark, in fact there is something about going to heaven when one dies, when he is of God in Christ Jesus. The apostle Paul talked about it in II Cor 5:6-8.
When a Christian dies, I don’t refer to their body as being asleep, but rather the person as being asleep. From one perspective
the person is alseep when they have died. This is looking at it from the perspective of this earth, knowing that one day the Lord will raise them up in a resurrected body at his return. At that time they will be whole again and walking around in newness of life as the Lord himself walked around after his resurrection. We are told that we will be with the Lord in the air at his return as well as witness resurrection.
The Bible speaks of us being with the Lord, separate from this earthly body when we are with him after our death. (I Cor 5:8)
What it looks like to me is that in the Spirit they are present with the Lord in his house in heaven untill the day they will partake of the resurrection of the dead. At that time the body they have lived in on earth will be changed and fashioned according to the Lord’s glorious body. The disciples saw Jesus in his resurrection and our resurrection will resemble his, to what extent, I do not know for I consider there to be a different glory from one body to another. (See I Cor 15:35-42.)
I believe our bodies which we receive of him will resemble his and be fashioned according to his, though there may be some differing extent of glory from one to another. That’s what it looks like to me.
Ray, I have dealt with these verse before in other discussions with you, and I mentioned it in this post too, as well as dealing with it in more detail in the full article on my web site (which will be presented in upcoming posts).
Verse 8 is almost constantly misquoted as “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Once again I must point out that this is NOT what the verse says. Paul says that he is “willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord,” which he says in many other writings would be at the return of Christ (I Cor. 15, esp. verses 22-23, 42, 49-54; and Phil. 3:10-14, 20-21, to name a few.)
Everything you say about our resurrection bodies is correct. However, there is nothing in the Bible that says we are alive or conscious in heaven until then. Paul specifically says in the same chapter of II Corinthians that he earnestly desires to be “clothed upon with our house which is from heaven, If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.” He doesn’t look forward to a disembodied existence in between his death and his resurrection, for he says in verse 4, “For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.”
The idea of a disembodied soul living on after death is, as I said, foreign to the Bible. If the dead are alive in heaven, what do we need the resurrection for? And if the dead are consigned to either heaven or hell when they die, what’s the point of a judgment when Jesus returns?
As I was thinking on the two perspectives of speaking about the Christian who has died in Christ, one being that he is asleep in Christ, for we know he will be complete and new in the future resurrection and that we will then see him again in a complete and better condition.
The other way to speak of him is that he is with the Lord in heaven,
that he is absent from the body and present with the Lord in the Spirit.
Since these two perspectives appear in different writings I began to wonder which was written first, considering the second one to have contained more information on the subject.
We have the Corinthian letters and the Thessalonain letters.
It seems to me that I once heard that Thessalonians was written first. If so, then more on the subject is given later in Corinthians.
Together they should help us see things more clearly, and it may help us to know which one was written first.
I find myself speaking of a Christian who has died as being with the Lord, more often than I do as fallen asleep in Christ.
I’ve never heard II Cor 5:8 as being misquoted as “To be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.” , rather I have heard it said that it is so.
I don’t think of a Christian who has passed on as being a disembodied soul, but rather as living with the Lord in heaven in the Spirit of God whereby he was sealed. In that Spirit he is present with the Lord and a part of his heavenly household.
But they don’t both appear in the Scriptures. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that speaks of a dead person being with the Lord in heaven. What’s more there are many references to the dead being unconscious.
I’ve heard and seen many people quote it that way. When you say “I have heard it said that it is so” what exactly do you mean?
The spirit of God is never presented in Scripture as a part of a person that survives after death. The spirit of God is just that – God’s spirit. He anoints us with His spirit which is the down payment of the ultimate outpouring of the spirit that will be when Christ returns. It has nothing to do with a person’s consciousness, or his self-awareness. There are many Scriptures that clearly tell us that the dead have no thoughts, do not praise God, and have no part in anything again, until the resurrection.
Mark,
I think this is a superb observation.
The greatest error anyone can make is to use the human experience as a basis for religious truth. Instead of discarding Scriptural metaphor in describing death (sleep) one must discard the “life-after-death” experiences of people who had near-death experiences. I know there are experts on this and these experiences are often referred to in support of the Afterlife. But that is again using human experience and rejecting the Bible’s testimony. The Bible is, after all, the testimony given by the actual Designer Himself, free from the delusions and fantasies the human mind can subject us to.
It is clear that the “breather,” or nephesh, ceases to exist as soon as the invisible animator, ruach, ceases to function. Hence the ceasing of conscious existence (Ps. 146:4). To accurately determine the sequence of events regarding the resurrection, see Paul’s writing in 1 Corinthians 15.
No proof to the contrary can be found in the Bible.
Jaco
Mark,
Both perspectives do appear in scripture. There are two differing perspectives concerning Christians who have died in Christ. One perspective is that they are absent from the body and present with the Lord and the other is that they are asleep in Christ, one day to receive the resurrection of their bodies at his appearing.
I have heard people say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. They have said it though it was not a quote from scripture. It was a statment made through faith concerning what has been revealed by scripture.
We are not in the flesh but in the spirit if so be that the spirit of Christ dwell in us. (See Romans 8:9.)
Is the connection as real between the Christian and and the spirit of God as it is between the flesh and the carnal man? I believe it is just as real.
If we are not in the flesh when we die, are we not still in the spirit of God after our bodies have died?
Still I wonder if those Christians who have died and went to heaven and have been sent back to tell us what they saw in heaven, (some even witnessing what hell is like to warn others)
if they could have been in the spirit on another day, as John was in the spirit on the Lord’s day.
I suppose that is possible, but to read of what they tell, and to hear them, it seems to me that they were there on that very day.
I heard from one who does not physically die, but does have frequent visits with the Lord in heaven. During these visits, she is in heaven with the Lord, and she tells about it.
People say that and believe it, but it cannot be shown from Scripture. In fact, it contradicts very clear Scriptures (which if you haven’t seen them before, will be in the next post.)
When read in context, it is plain that it is not talking about the spirit living on after death. It is talking about being “in the spirit” versus “in the flesh” which has to do with our walk: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit” (verse 5).
I’m not sure what you mean by these statements. And as I said, being “in the flesh” and “in the spirit” have nothing to do with when we die.
John did not die at that point. He was talking about receiving revelation from God in a vision of “the Lord’s Day” which will be at the return of Christ.
As I have said before, Satan counterfeits visions and revelations, so we must make the Scriptures our guide and our standard of truth, and try every spirit accordingly.
Mark,
When the apostle Paul wrote “Therefore we are always confident,
knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”, do you think he was saying that though we wish, hope, would like if it were a possibility, a chance,
a lottery, or an unpredictable event that could by some unforseen occasion turn out to be so?
If so, it seems to me that such condition would hardly qualify as faith, for faith has substance because something real was revealed
by the spirit of God.
He wasn’t walking by his imagination when he wrote that. He was walking because of revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul was saying that we who believe are not only willing, but also confident that being absent from the body, we will then be present with the Lord.
As long as we are in this body, we are absent from the Lord.
John wrote, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the begininng with God.”
Some may say that he wasn’t talking about Jesus but about the scripture because it doesn’t say “Jesus”, or that he was talking about the spoken Word of God through which God created all things that are made, but he isn’t talking about Jesus because he didn’t say “Jesus”.
Is there such a thing as a man saying something without him saying it, and if so, didn’t he really say it? Isn’t there such a thing as saying something in a manner in which it will be heard by those who have hearing by faith?
I believe that there is. There is also imagination which is not of the word of God, and we do have to be careful about putting our confidence in those things. We have the scriptures and the spirit of God to lead us through these things, and it is a process. The light we receive will overcome the darkness, for the light is greater. The darkness of this world will not have the rule over the believer who has received the light which is of God and abides in it. Those who have Jesus living in them will overcome this world.
II Cor 5:5
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
II Cor 5:13
For whether we be beside ourselves it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
The spirit of God is not limited to our walk in this world only as if it has no other place. It’s home is in heaven even as it dwells with us who are on this earth who have been placed by the grace of God into it by Christ Jesus.
Are we not more into it than we are in the flesh? I hope that such is the case. For those of us who are it is not a false hope nor a vain confidence.
II Cor 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Notice the two possibilities he mentions, present or absent. As long as we are in this earthly tabernacle we are absent from the Lord. While we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. When the Christian leaves his home in this world, he comes to the presence of the Lord.
Though John did not die and was not dead when he received the revelation of Jesus Christ, he was present with the Lord on the Lord’s day. Does one have to die in order to have a visit with the Lord in heaven? I think not.
We must use the scriptures as our rule in order to discern the validity of what we hear and read concerning visions and revelations of the Lord, as well as the interpretations or their meaning. It is not a light thing indeed though it be full of the glory of the Lord. Those who have received revelations through visions and experienced things of heaven have no doubt as they have experienced God. Those who have experienced the genuine will not be so easily fooled by a counterfeit. In fact, so many things of Satan are so far away from a counterfeit which is revealed by the
character of it. There is a quality of God, the fruit of the Spirit of God
that Satan can not produce.
Some people may think that speaking in tongues can be counterfeited, but will those who speak in tonges be fooled? Not so easily anyway. I’ve read material that was so warning against
speaking in tongues, but what is that to one who speaks in tongues? Such material may have been effective to some extent in
discouraging people from receiving it, but God will continue to see
his kingdom come by Jesus Christ. May this world never loose the gifts of God whether they be tongues or something else, till this world end. Till then we are in a battle here between light and darkness and so we participate in our warfare.
To Paul it was more than a wish or a hope, and was certainly not a chance, lottery, or an unpredictable event. He had faith and was confident that he would be present with the Lord, but as he said in the Scriptures I referred to, he knew it was something that would happen at the return of Christ, not when he died.
But that’s not what it says. It says he was willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, which will be when the Lord returns. Paul was longing for the return of Christ. You can’t just focus on this one verse without taking into account the many other Scriptures that deal with this subject, or the complete lack of Scriptures that say anything about the dead going to heaven.
Hearing by faith does not mean giving a meaning to what is written that is not there. We don’t conclude that “the Word” in John 1:1 is not Jesus just because it “doesn’t say Jesus.” We conclude that it refers to God’s Word (His plan, His will, His heart) because that’s what the word logos means. (Not just the Scriptures or the spoken Word, by the way, but the entire mind of God behind the Scriptures and the spoken Word.)
Likewise we cannot give a different meaning to what Paul says about being absent from the body and present with the Lord that he doesn’t say, especially if it contradicts other clear passages of Scripture.
Again, the Spirit of God is not a man’s self, soul, consciousness, or being. Being “in the spirit” has absolutely nothing to do with being in heaven when you die. That is not what the phrase means.
The point was that John was receiving by revelation (i.e. in the spirit) a vision of the Lord’s Day, an event in the future. And in that vision, he described events that took place between heaven and earth, with the culmination being the reign of Christ on earth. In contrast, those people who have had visions of heaven have claimed that it was in the present, and that the dead were currently alive with God in heaven. This is in direct contradiction to the clear teaching of Scripture, therefore it cannot have been a vision from the true God.
Of course people that have received revelations through visions and experienced things of heaven have no doubt that they have experienced God. That’s the nature of Satan’s counterfeits and lies. People that are passed a counterfeit 20 dollar bill have no doubt that they have genuine money, unless they know how to recognize a counterfeit. And the way they know that is to know what the genuine should look like. This is why we have to know the Bible and what it says about this subject. As I said, you can’t just focus on one misquoted verse, to the exclusion of the rest of Scripture. Take the time to look into what the Bible really says about this rather than holding to what you have heard.
Clearly Paul believed that upon his departure from his body he would be with the Lord. It’s because of the spirit of God that he would be brought to heaven. By it he came into the presense of the Lord. It was his hope that was founded upon revelation by Jesus Christ.
The apostle Paul is now with the Lord in heaven, among the great cloud of witnesses with which we are encompassed. He came to it at the end of his race here upon this earth. He received the prize he had labored for and hoped to receive. God brought him through many trials and tribulations for the sake of the gospel of Christ. The accompanying eternal life in him escorted Paul into the house of God which is not made with hands but is of God in the heavenlies.
Paul believed in Jesus who is the Word of God through whom he made the world and all that is.
I’m not sure if Dean Braxton, and others I have heard tell of heaven
who have been there and came back, have made the claim that it was in the present, but I believe they were there.
They speak of it as if it were happening to them at the time of the experience, and it seems to me that such may indeed be the case.
Dean was certainly doing more than sleeping, or even dreaming.
He experienced reality. I believe he experienced it as it really is,
whether on this day or that. He wasn’t making it up. He wasn’t lying.
Satan is the accuser of the Lord’s brethren and we do have to be aware of his devices. His ways are crafty and subtle. He will often take advantage of our any weaknesses in order that we may be used by him.
God is not the God of the dead and Jesus is the Lord of the living.
Ray,
Continuing to state your position doesn’t prove it. You say that “Clearly Paul believed that upon his departure from his body he would be with the Lord.” Clearly from what? Paul never wrote such a thing and made many references to his belief in the future resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ, in agreement with the many other Scriptures that speak of the dead being unconscious in the grave. Please give serious consideration to the Scriptures and not what people say.
I’m not suggesting that Dean Braxton or any of the people who claim to have seen heaven are making it up or lying. I believe they have been deceived and lied to. You’re right, Satan’s ways are crafty and subtle, and he does indeed take advantage of our weaknesses. If one is convinced that the dead are in heaven, that is one of the weaknesses that he will take advantage of, for he is still promoting his original lie from Eden – “Thou shalt not surely die.”
The Bible warns us that there are deceiving and lying spirits, and we must try them according to the Scriptures. Have you looked at the specific Scriptural references on Sean’s Sleep of the Dead page or my State of the Dead article? I highly recommend you do so. I will be posting more of my article here, but I encourage you to seek out the truth from the Bible and not continue to be deceived.
If I died, under either teaching, my next aware moment would seem instantaneous; I would be in the presence of the Lord, soul-sleep or otherwise. To my own perception of reality, I would die, and then see Christ. Taking this one step further; if my saved brother died, I would believe, rightfully, under either scenario, that his next aware moment would be in the presence of Christ, and in that I would find peace and comfort. Time, and especially the time that hypothetically goes by during what you refer to as soul sleep, is at best a relative concept, and might even be considered an artificial concept when we are dealing with an eternal Being who stands outside of it. I prefer to look at “reality” through His perception, not my own. My life is a handbreadth, and any time in sleep is less than a vapor. I do, however, believe that a debate on such issues, while interesting, marginalizes the most glorious message in the universe — Christ’s human Sonship and equal-to-God status as man. The Bible does not make too big an issue out of the state of man between death and resurrection. My vote would be to reflect the same relative priority in our use of the prescious time we have , and turn to the pressing issue of honoring His Only Begotten Son, but that’s just me.
I plan on living with the heavenly saints of light as soon as I die, and live with Jesus Christ. (John 11:25) Jesus is the life as well as the resurrection. I’ve read and heard from some who have seen heaven. I do not believe there were in deception concerning what they saw or what they told of.
Heaven is the home of the saints, the home of all who believe in Jesus. As we are in the spirit of God, we go where that spirit of God goes upon the time of our death. Though we die yet shall we live and also partake of the resurrection when that time comes, is what it looks like to me.
I also have been thinking of the possibility of a future time that these people have gone to as John did on the Lord’s day which we
read about in the book of Revelation. I wondered if that was what happened, but the way they talk of it, it seems to me they are saying it was right then. When I listened to them, I did not hear either of the 3 that I heard tell, say that it was a future day, or that they were taken into the future and came back. They did not speak of it that way, so I don’t take it that way.
I believe their experiences were of God and that God is not in the business of causing us to stumble at his word. I’ve been told not to make doctrines out of someone’s revelation, prophecy, or dreams, but to seach the scriptures to see if it is so.
It seems to me that I should have heard something of a future day
from at least one of them, but none of them told of a future time that I am aware of. I will keep my ears open for it though, in case it should appear.
Ray
I hope you don’t mind me interjecting in your conversation. I believe you are partially right and Mark is partially right. Jesus did say that God was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that God was not the God of the dead but the God of the living. Also at the transfiguration on the mountain Moses and Elijah appeared and talked with Jesus. It is obvious they were not asleep in death.
But the bible does clearly talk about the resurection of the dead just before the day of judgment. It would appear to me anywaze that certain people who are close to God’s heart like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, Jesus etc… are resurected right away and go to heaven. But I believe for the vast majority of us we have to wait till the end days to be resurected and see Jesus.
This is just my own personal opinion and you are of course entitled to disagree with me if you want. I just put it out there for you to consider…
I began reading tonight and came to John 3:13. Here it is from the 1599 Geneva:
John 3:13
For no man ascendeth up to heaven, but he that had decended from heaven, that Son of man which is in heaven.
There are several study notes here in this Bible on this verse.
From them I gather some things as well as some things from my understanding which I had prior, that:
1. For a man to ascend to heaven can be a way of saying, “Who can go high to gain the information, or revelation from God and bring it back to us?” (spiritual light, or understanding)
2. He that decended from heaven is Jesus who came from heaven
to this earth by the divine conception.
3.The Son of man which is in heaven may include Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Abraham, etc, who received the things of God by the spirit of wisdom, as those who walked by that spirit of God as Enoch did, and called upon the name of the Lord can be referred to as the sons of God. In heaven there is one man. All are in Christ.
All are connected, and are of one. They are a part of the one new
man which is his body, also known as the building of God. In such a sense, the son of man is in heaven.
4. As Christ is seated with God in the heavenlies, even as he was on earth, he is also in that sence, in heaven. Heaven is his home even at the time he was here on this earth ministering and walking in the flesh by the spirit of God.
These are interesting developments for me tonight as things begin to come together this way.
You’re right, if it were genuine you should have heard that, but you didn’t and most likely won’t, because most of the mainstream church has believed the Greek-influenced lies of going to heaven. So logically, if the Bible says one thing, and people, no matter how sincere, say another, you have to choose who is right.
When Jesus said that God is not the God of the dead but of the living (Mark 12:27), it was in the context of the resurrection (note especially verses 18, 23, 25, 26). It does not mean that the dead are living now.
The Transfiguration is described as a vision in Matt. 17:9, and so cannot be used to prove that Moses and Elijah were or are actually alive. The vision was concerning Christ’s return, according to Peter’s reference to it in II Peter 1:16-18.
The Old Testament makes it clear that those who die are unconscious in the grave. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that certain people were closer to God and therefore taken to heaven. Hebrews 11:13 and 39 both state that the Old Testament heroes of faith died, having not received the promises, and John 3:13 states that no one has ascended up to heaven except Jesus.
In our culture we are inundated with talk about life after death and going to heaven when we die. We must put aside what we have heard and seek the truth from God’s Word.
Several people that have had heavenly experiences had seen the apostle Paul in heaven. In heaven everyone praises God and Jesus.
If you could find the apostle’s grave site and go there today, his body would be gone, the bones left, and there would be no praise
coming from there because he has been long dead.
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Ray
Do you believe this to be true
if so how do you reconcile there is no mention of a single apostle thru out Revelations till the first ressurection on Jesus’ return which must include them. there are 24 elders but they can not include the apostles because they were alive when captives were led out of captivity at Jesus’ acension. these where OT Saints actually being called to duty by our High priest JESUS to serve Jesus.
these people who claim to have been to heaven are called liars by the revelation God Gave Jesus
Can you provide any Scriptural backup for this statement?
This is based on the concept of a separation between the body and the soul or spirit (whichever you want to call the non-physical part). But as I have said several times already, such an idea is foreign to the Bible and stems from Greek philosophy.
Jesus had a heavenly experience seeing Elijah and Moses and some people alive today have seen the apostle Paul when they interacted with what they experienced whether by vision, dream,
or after the death of their earthly body.
I believe there is scriptural evidence that show such things are possible for God to do by his spirit. God is not limited by what he
has done in the past.
I do not believe that these things which I have heard and read about are violations of scripture, but rather they begin to open up scripture to us. We should expect that such will be the case whenever God reveals anything to us by the holy spirit.
A man could put his ear to the grave of a saint who passed away
and hear no praise at all, for as the scripture saith, the grave can not praise thee. (see Isaiah 38:18)
The living in heaven will praise thee O Lord, for thou art Lord of the Living.
A man can hear no praise of God from the grave sites. No spook will worship God or Jesus. They don’t know how to have church.
There is a way no fowl knoweth, a path the lion’s feet have never trod. They don’t go that way.
They never will say, “Who is the Lord of hosts? It’s the king glorious and mighty, Jesus by name!, the Son of the living God,”, but heaven is full of his praises. The great cloud of witnesses, they know his name.
Robert, There is mention of an apostle of Jesus Christ throughout the book of Revelation. In chapter one we see “I John”, in chapter four we see “I saw”, in chapter 6 we see “I beheld”, in chapter 7 we see
“I said”, and so forth. So how can any man say there is no mention of a single apostle in these parts of the revelation of Jesus Christ?
Ray
You know very well what i meant, there was not any within his vision as a part of heaven host.If Paul or any others were there he would of mentioned them.
this is by far your biggest deception so far
Robert, are you saying that because there is no mention of the harpers, musicians, pipers, and trumpeters of Babylon in the vision
till chapter 18 that they did not exist?
Are you trying to deceive us by this method of reason?
No Ray
Maybe you need to reread or try something more understandable for you
It says they existed before and would not exist after
Robert, the reason the harpers, musicians, pipers, and trumpeters of Babylon were not heard any more is because God judged Babylon and it was destroyed. It fell by reason of it’s iniquities which it did not repent of.
Now what was it you were saying in post 20 about the apostles?
What was it you are trying to teach us concerning them and their mention in the book of Revelation?
Ray
Do you believe this to be true
if so how do you reconcile there is no mention of a single apostle thru out Revelations till the first ressurection on Jesus’ return which must include them. there are 24 elders but they can not include the apostles because they were alive when captives were led out of captivity at Jesus’ acension. these where OT Saints actually being called to duty by our High priest JESUS to serve Jesus.
these people who claim to have been to heaven are called liars by the revelation God Gave Jesus
couldnt you just look
“What was it you are trying to teach us concerning them and their mention in the book of Revelation?”
They dont exist except in YOUR MIND and others that are deceiving or being deceived
Robert, I see nothing that needs to be reconciled. I see apostles are mentioned in chapter 18 of Revelation as also are prophets who rejoiced at the fall of Babylon which was judged for it’s sins which it did not repent of, though God was long forebearing and merciful.
What is it that you see which needs to be reconciled? Please explain.
Ray
reread again
It doesnt say they rejoiced , it said for them to rejoice , you also may see they are seperate from heaven.
the dead can be told to rejoice but as you see in the verses they DID NOT REJOICE.
so again you give no basis for your imagination
Robert, they rejoiced in the next chapter.
Now what is the thing that you said needed to be reconciled concerning the apostles who are mentioned in chapter 18 along with the prophets?
I don’t understand your question.
Mark, you said,
I fully agree with you here. Especially vss. 23, 25, 26 a future event is described, not a current event (resurrection at death) nor current life. By his statement in vs. 27 Jesus points out that, for Yahweh to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, he will have to resurrect them and make them live again. No Afterlife teaching here.
Personally I agree with Anthony Buzzard and others regarding John 3:13, as it shows, not literal ascension into heaven being the issue, but receiving endowment of divine wisdom from God. This, however does not weaken our Hebraic stance of future resurrection of the dead. Jesus’ very preeminence is jeopardized when we teach that the dead have been raised and is alive somewhere else! This cannot be! (1 Cor. 15:20, 23, Col 1:18, Rev. 1:5)
Ray, do you even consider what the other posters write? It appears to me that it falls on deaf ears. You may believe what you want, but there is absolutely NO evidence for it in Scripture. Scripturally speaking, your arguments fall utterly short. As regards you preferrence for human experience vs. divine inspiration, please read Romans 3:4.
NO resurrection before Jesus, NO resurrection since, ONLY resurrection at his return and onwards.
Jaco
Mark,
Could it also be that some of Jesus’ sayings not only in this verse but in others include a figure of speech known as prolepsis, where a future event is referred to in the present tense [or in anticipation], is verified by the fact that some manuscripts add “who is in heaven”.
This might also explain why Jesus later says to his apostles “where I am going you cannot come—follow” [Jn 8.21; 13.33].
Ray
chapter 19 has no apostles rejoicing either.
who ever is teaching you this is a false prophet
The appearance of Elijah and Moses was specifically called a vision, and Peter tells us it was a vision of Christ’s return.
If people today have a vision of the future kingdom after the resurrection, that would be one thing. But if they say, as you have indicated they have, that they were in heaven and witnessed the dead alive with Jesus, it is in direct contradiction to the Bible’s teaching about death.
Please give chapter and verse of such evidence.
They are violations if they contradict the Bible about what happens to the dead. God will not reveal anything by His Holy Spirit that contradicts His Word. That’s why we are told to try the spirits and to beware of counterfeits.
The word for “grave” in that verse (and others) is not merely referring to the physical grave. It’s the word for the abode of the dead, the entire state of those who have died. And other verses say that the dead do not praise God and have no thoughts. Those verses do not differentiate between the body in the grave and some other part of man living in heaven. (See Part 2, posted today.)
There is NO SUCH VERSE in the Bible. The verse following Isaiah 38:18 which you referred to above, says, “The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.”
Again, there is NO SUCH VERSE.
This is another common misquotation. The phrase “great cloud of witnesses” comes from Hebrews 12:1, and is referring back to the examples of faith of the Old Testament believers that was just spoken of in chapter 11. It is frequently quoted out of context, but there is absolutely nothing in that passage that has anything to do with the dead being in heaven.
Mark C., Xavier, Robert, & Jaco, you’re all doing an admirable job trying to get Ray to see the truth of the Bible regarding this subject.
Though it seems he values the traditions of men over what God’s written word plainly says, maybe one day he’ll have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Ray, keep studying the Scriptures and try to open your mind to the possibilities of what we’re saying regarding them. You’re still hanging around here, so maybe God intends for you to see & hear eventually.
Ray
this is what an early christian writers says about your belief
The difference between Christian and non-Christian in this matter was so great that belief in the ‘Resurrection of the flesh’ could become a shibboleth. One who believes in the ‘Immortality of the soul’ shows thereby that he is not a Christian. As Justin says: ‘If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians… and who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, but that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians.’ (Dial. lxxx. 4) (ibid., pp. 280-281).
Mark, where is the verse in Peter that says the vision of Moses and Elijah with Jesus was a vision of Christ’s return? Is there such a verse?
Robert, in reply to post #37 I’ve never heard any Christian say there is no resurrection. I don’t know of any that say or teach that.
“I plan on living with the heavenly saints of light as soon as I die, and live with Jesus Christ.”
Ray
maybe you dont understand your own words but this is in fact denying the ressurection of the dead because it is denying death.
God will raise you when he said he would, at the beginning of The Kingdom Of God here on this earth if you are worthy if not he will raise you at the end of that 1000 years to judge you out of the book of life or book of dead. I pray you are found in the book of life
If I die before the return of the Lord Jesus, I plan on being with him and all those that have gone on before me, and then to one day partake of the resurrection.
II Peter 1:
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Why do you continue repeating your view rather than dealing with the clear Scriptures we have presented?
Mark, I believe that the verses in II Peter that you gave are not speaking concerning the return of Christ, rather they speak converning the voice from heaven that they witnessed as to his recognition by God the Father.
I share the views on this matter because of the testimony I have received. I heard from the man who died and went to heaven without a body, for as he said, which also the scripture states that
being absent from the body, he was present with the Lord, and that God is not the God of the dead but of the living. In the presence of the Lord everything was alive. There was nothing dead with him. Being without his body he was there, receiving things from the Lord, seeing and hearing without his body. Apparently he didn’t need his body to be there. His spirit took him there because he believed in Jesus. Because he believed, he was taken there in the spirit and by the spirit. In the twinkling of an eye he was there immediately after he died, and the Lord sent him back.
While he was there he saw many, many things which he tells of and has written about. I do not believe he has partaken of the resurrection of the dead, a thing I believe to be still furture.
Now what are the scriptures you want to deal with?
Of course he’s talking about the voice from heaven, but when did he hear it? “When we were with him in the holy mount” (v. 18). And what else happened on that mount? He saw the vision of Moses and Elijah, and they were “eyewitnesses of his majesty,” (v. 16) which is related to his power and coming (parousia, the word for the coming of the Lord.) They saw a vision of Christ’s glory which will be at his return.
I dealt with both of those misquotations, but it’s like you never read it, and you keep repeating them like a mantra.
Have you not read part 2 of my article? Have you not read Brian Keating’s articles? Have you not read Sean’s evidence on his Death is Sleep page? It seems as if what Ron S. said above is true – you value the traditions of men (and their testimonies) over what God’s written word plainly says.
Now as concerning Dean Braxton who went to heaven being absent from his body, and being taken into the presence of the Lord in heaven, seeing and hearing many things, it seems to me that he was in the spirit and now I consider that he was in the new creation, the new man which was (had been) in his natural body. This must have been the spiritual man that was “him” in heaven.
The spiritual man is in us who believe in Jesus and have come to know him as Lord and Saviour. Within us is a new creation, a spiritual man. The old man is passed away though it still is seen in this natural world. God has made us a new creation in Christ Jesus and he does live within us.
Any way that’s what things look like to me. I began to wonder about how it is that he could see and hear without a body, or without his natural body which was left behind.
As I am reading his book, “In Heaven!” which is about the throne of God, as the rest of the title indicates, I am watching for information about the resurrection. I haven’t seen him tell about it so far, except that he has seen the Lord Jesus in heaven, and he tells about the glory that is all around in heaven and does come from the Lord.
Is our soul inside the new creation? Is it inside the new man?
I believe God can download information to our spirit, which knows the new creation within us, the new man, and the new man can connect with our soul. I suppose God has given each of us a unique
new creation, or new man, or spirit man because of Jesus.
I’m responding to Ray’s post from the Debating the Trinity thread here since it deals with this subject, and the other thread is so long already.
Yes. All the Scriptures that describe the state of death describe it as a state of unconsciousness, and NOWHERE does it say ANYTHING about them going to heaven.
All the references to future life throughout the Bible are in the context of a future resurrection, without which the dead will remain dead. It never speaks of the “resurrection of the body” but of the resurrection of the person – the whole man. The idea of a soul or spirit that lives without a body is foreign to Biblical thinking, and originated with Greek philosophy.
Again, Dean Braxton’s book proves nothing. Let’s stick to the Scriptures.
Exactly. It is the resurrection that is our hope, not disembodied existence in heaven immediately upon death.
You were comparing Dean Braxton’s “experience” with I Cor. 15, but Dean spoke of going to heaven upon death, while Paul was talking about being resurrected at his return. These are two entirely different scenarios. Furthermore, the contradiction is between Dean’s claim of conscious existence after death and the clear teaching of Scripture, which is that the dead know nothing, experience nothing, and have no more part in anything, barring the resurrection.
You are completely misunderstand the Spirit of God. It is God’s spirit that we are anointed with, and that works in us. It has nothing to do with our consciousness, our being or “self” so to speak. There is nothing in the Bible about God’s spirit “taking us to heaven” when we die.
Romans 8:9 has nothing whatever to do with going to heaven. It’s talking about our life and our orientation to spiritual things, in contrast to fleshly things. Let’s look at it.
Romans 8:
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
This is not talking about our consciousness being alive without the body. The next verse clarifies this:
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Notice, it does not say anything about going to heaven as a disembodied spirit. It says that because we have God’s spirit now, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit. When we are made alive it will be in a body, not a disembodied spirit.
Yes, we are not at home with the Lord while we are in this body. But that doesn’t say that the moment we die we are with the Lord. Paul’s other writings clearly tell us that we will be with the Lord when he returns.
Again, you are making statements that the Bible simply does not make. How about dealing with the Scriptures I presented in the first part of the article that demonstrate what the Bible says about death? How about dealing with the Scriptures that speak of bodily resurrection as raising the whole man (not just part of him)? How about dealing with the historical evidence of where the idea of an immortal soul originated? Continuing to refer to Dean Braxton does not help your case, as his “experiences” are not the standard for truth. We must try every spirit according to God’s Word.