Groups with Unitarian beliefs
March 21st, 2010 by Brian Keating
In my last post, I listed some beliefs that I considered “vital” – that is, beliefs that people must share, in order to have formal Bible studies with each other. (At least, in order to have Bible studies without constant disagreements…) The “vital” beliefs from that post (and from the comments) are as follows:
1. The belief that only one person – our Heavenly Father – is Almighty God.
2. The belief that Jesus is the Son of God – not “God the Son”.
3. The belief that the kingdom of God will be established on the earth, when Jesus returns.
4. The belief that humans have conditional immortality – not natural immortality (i.e., the soul is not immortal).
In addition to the above four “vital” beliefs, there is one other belief which I consider to be extremely important. Here is that belief:
5. The belief that Christians have “conditional security” – not “eternal security”. That is, the belief that Christians need to maintain their faith until the end in order to be saved – as opposed to the “once saved, always saved” doctrine.
Needless to say, there are very few Christian denominations that share all of the above beliefs. So, in this post, I’d like to provide an overview of some of the Christian groups that do have all of those beliefs – in case any of you would like to get in touch with them.
Here are the groups that I know about, that share in the four “vital” beliefs:
- The Church of God General Conference (a.k.a. The Church of God, Abrahamic Faith)
- The Christadelphians
- The Free Bible Students*
- The Associated Bible Students*
- Spirit and Truth Fellowship International
- Jehovah’s Witnesses*
*Note: the Bible Students and the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that 144,000 humans will actually live in heaven, with Jesus, forever. However, they state that all other believers will live on the paradise earth.
If we add belief number 5 (conditional security) to the requirements, then that would eliminate Spirit and Truth Fellowship from the list of denominations; but all of the other groups would remain.
I have had some experience with all of the denominations in the list above. Here is a brief synopsis of my experiences with those groups:
- I was baptized in a Church of God General Conference church; so of course I don’t have any problems fellowshipping with Church of God members. The only trouble with the Church of God is that they have very few churches – especially in areas outside of the midwest and the southeast.
- For the most part, I have been able to fellowship very well with the Christadelphians and the Free Bible Students. Of course, I have some disagreements with some of their beliefs – such as the “no personal Satan” of the Christadelphians, and the “personal pre-existence of Christ” of the Free Bible Students. However, from what I have seen, both of those groups are still willing to fellowship with me, despite those disagreements – i.e., the disagreements we’ve had have not caused arguments or hard feelings.
- I have had significant problems fellowshipping with the Associated Bible Students and Spirit and Truth Fellowship. Basically, both of those groups take an extremely hard line on some of their beliefs – in other words, those groups consider certain beliefs to be “non-negotiable”.
In the case of the Associated Bible Students, they believe that their founder – Charles Russell – was a “modern-day prophet”. That is, they believe that Russel received a “special revelation” from God – and therefore, that his writings are actually the inspired word of God. As a result, from what I have seen, according to them it is not sufficient to read the Bible to learn the truth – it is also necessary to read Russell’s writings.
In the case of Spirit and Truth Fellowship, they believe that all Christians have the ability to do legitimate speaking in tongues, whenever they decide to – and they state that all Christians should speak in tongues, at every fellowship meeting! From what I have seen, if anyone does not speak in tongues at their meetings, then that person is looked down upon, and sometimes ostracized – even if that person does not share their belief about speaking in tongues!
- From my experience, the most difficult group in the list to fellowship with is the Jehovah’s Witnesses. From what I have seen, the JWs claim that they are the only “True Christian” group – and as a result, everyone who is not a member of the JWs is not a Christian at all. Also, they consider people like me to be “especially bad”, because I spent an entire year with the JWs, going through their training class – but then I left the group, because I had some significant issues with some of their doctrines. Needless to say, it is quite difficult for me to fellowship with people who consider me to be a “deluded tool of Lucifer”…
Have any of you spent any time, with any of the above groups? Also, do you know of any other groups that share the same 4 (or 5) “vital” beliefs? I would be interested to hear about your experiences!
Note: on my website, I have a spreadsheet which compares the beliefs of nine Christian denominations, on a variety of topics. A link to that spreadsheet is listed here: Christian Beliefs Chart
Enjoy!
About #1 above, I’m not convinced that God is a person. I think of him as being a spirit. I might think of him as being a spiritual being,
being as he is and what he is. The spiritual things that he is is what he is, such as love, goodness, kindness, justice, truth, mercy, etc, all together with no part lacking.
I believe we must believe Jesus is the Son of God. I also trust that there are Christians who refer to Jesus as “God the Son”, and they too are a part of Christ, though I have some difficulty with their language at times. Sometimes I think they may as well be a barbarian to me and me to them, but many of them who name Christ as such, may be a part of him. I don’t always know. I wish their language was more plain to me. I often get confused by such
speech. I hope they can understand why such a thing could cause trouble among those that do believe. May they have compassion for us, and mercy too.
I completely agree with #3 above.
As to #4, it seems to me that where a man’s soul should go, that is where he himself will be found, that is, that we can not afford to take the opinion, “What do I need a soul for anyway? or What good is it?, or What’s it for? I haven’t a clue.”, for it seems clear to me that a soul will either go to heaven or hell, and hell is a place of eternal torment, a place of torture, a place where the devil will be found, a place of fire, wailing, and such darkness that I do not want to be a part of.
The alternative to this is heaven itself, to be with Jesus and to go where he goes, to be led by him and be a part of his body, his Church, his Bride.
As to #5, I do trust we must endure to the end, though I’m not sure when the end will be. Is it the end when we come to the end of this life on this earth, or is that the beginning? Is the end when
death comes to an end, or is that still the beginning? I do believe we must abided in Jesus. I wonder if the time comes when we are locked into him and that’s it, completely prisioners of him by our choice and happiness, slamming the door with our consent by the grace God has given us, locked and welded shut permanantly, that we might be free indeed, free completely to never go back to where we came from, ever, never mindful of it, not desiring to ever look back, not remembering anything of it any more, being so far away from us that we just will never imagine those things of the past again, God moving us forward to that which is eternal and abiding in him forever by Christ himself.
Ray
What is a “spiritual being” if not a person?
Xavier,
I don’t refer to all beings created by God as persons, do you?
Ray
According to any English dictionary you open up the word “being” means a “person”.
If by “all beings created by God” you mean animals and angels, their still “individuals, entities”.
Point is, “being” is not reserved to some abstract, ethereal, non-corporeal “non-being” state!
Brian,
Thank you for a very well-presented summary of the issues. I was a little surprised at the positive experiences you had with Christadelphians. From conversations with them, I figured that they are also very exclusivist. Among themselves rather split regarding the identity of Satan and the demons. Some very ingenious reasoning on the issues, but with fallacies all over the place. Communion is reserved for Christadelphians exclusively.
One problem I have with exclusivist groups is that topics the Bible present as possibilities, they present as fundamental essentialities. As if that is not enough, even teachings the Bible is very clear about are simply reinterpreted and presented as non-negotiable prerequisites for membership. That’s so wrong.
It is an unfortunate fact that the Watchtower is one of the most exclusivist groups on earth today. I was a Witness almost half my life, before I decided to “fade.” Having shared in different areas of the ministry, speaking and reading a few languages, blessed with a photographic memory, I was a Witness many wished they could be. I remember the first day I realised that what they taught me was the truth: I finally found a group who knew God by His Name, who did not believe in the Trinity, or the “afterlife.” See, I grew up in a mainstream Protestant Church. I never believed in the Trinity or the immortality of the soul. My cousin committed suicide when I was 11. Many times I used to wonder where she was – in heaven, in the grave, alive or asleep. I can still remember my reciting the Apostles’ Creed where it says in conclusion “I believe…in the resurrection of the flesh, and everlasting life.” I knew she could not have been in heaven. So, you can imagine the relief I experienced when I finally found a group who believed exactly as I thought the true Christian Church would believe. Unquenchable appreciation was the sole motivation for excelling in the Organisation. Needless to say, I found myself ever so often alone in my zeal for Jehovah and His Christ. I received privileges in no time, only to meet with jealousy, malicious envy, discouragement from “deep” Bible study and even overt animosity. Many an elder hated my sharing a discovery in Scripture while siting and quoting it in Greek. That “silent treatment” after having a heated debate on John 1:1 with a non-Witness or a Biblical/Qur’anic discussion on Jesus’ Messiahship or the future Paradise with Muslims, were more causes for private joy and public humiliation than anything else.
So, you can imagine, how the disappointment gradually but surely grew in me. How different the Organisation started to seem the more I delved into its history, its inner mechanics and policies reserved for only elders. Maturity was judged upon, not Biblical knowledge and appreciation, a personal intimacy with God and Christ (in fact, Christ is with few exceptions always presented as a somewhat distant figure), personal stability and intense, sincere interest in the well-being of others; no, and that is a sad reality. You are considered mature if you know the policies and mechanics of the Organisation. Many an elder battled with public ministry. Their incompetence in using Scripture was in many cases nothing less than shocking. These men were appointed to shepherd a flock while they had no training or knowledge in Counselling, even a basic understanding of Psychology or psychopathy – not to mention their truly astonishing ability to commit every possible logical fallacy in the book when handling serious issues. I had to face the truth…the truth about the “Truth,” and that was that dogmatic truth and real truth are inseparable. As true as some of one’s beliefs can be – when these serve to the delusion of the mind, the sadistic oppression of the gullible and the deceptive logical acrobatics to suppress the cognitive dissonance of obvious reality, the movement can be no less true than others who have untruth in other areas.
Many simply do not understand it. Unless you’ve had extended contact with them yourself, you’ll have great difficulty appreciating the processes used to discourage members to think for themselves. If you disagree, you’re bad. If you find their material empty and elementary, you’re dissatisfied and ungrateful. If you discover that you suffer from unexplainable bouts of depression, you better read your Bible more and do more field-service…or you’ve committed some serious sin sometime in the past. You have simply no right to be you. You have no right to live authentically. Condition is set upon condition, and you’re mercilessly reminded of the external demonstration of your spirituality.
After more than a decade I longed to worship the Jehovah I initially met when I learned about Him from the Witnesses and the Bible. I longed for the merciful and patient Father I felt I could approach whenever my heart was a bit hard on me. I longed for my Lord Jesus, whom I had several encounters with as a child. The Jesus who wanted to pick me up when I was sad and down. The Jesus who just comforted me whenever my confusing and disquieting thoughts became many. I couldn’t stand the tyranny anymore. The Organisation I got to know in the early nineties turned into a butchery for me. Love was but an outward pretence. Divine service a heartless rut. Dissent had me meet up with unthinkable Nazi-like treatment and interrogation. A safe haven turned into a labour camp overnight. I nearly lost everything before I decided to leave…until my God Jehovah and my dear Lord Jesus gently took me away. They rewarded my integrity. They saw the stand I took for truth. Single-handedly I stood for what I believed in while every other person (save one or two) cowered before oppressive and Christ-less elders. God and Jesus provided my escape, and now I’m finally free…
Jaco
Xavier, according to my dictionary, there are meanings of the word being, that say nothing of being a person, and in such use I have used the word as pertaining to God who is a Spirit. Being as he is, he is good, honest, just, fair, equitable, kind, merciful, and great.
There is so much more that he is. He is a Father. Though I do not
care to teach that God is a person (for I would rather say that God is a Spirit, and sometimes I will go so far as to say that he is a being, and set forth the reasons why I have said so,) one may indeed perceive the person like characteristics of our loving God.
One may certainly do so. I know of no law nor officer thereof that can rightfully apprehend be before the Father and insist that I refer to God as a person. I am just not aware of any, are you?
Well Brian my experience is very unique. I grew up believing all 5 of those points. As a kid I knew it was rare since I saw that most every other Christian out there believed the dead instantly went to heaven or hell vs. being non-existent until the resurrection & judgment. But I never knew just HOW RARE it was until I became an adult and had my eyes opened to the greater scope of things in the world. Fortunately the age of the internet has brought many of us into communication and online fellowship (hence we’re here together on KR).
I grew up as an Advent Christian in the same faith tradition of my father and grandfather. We believed all 5 of the points because we understood the Bible to plainly teach these things. How could everyone else not see it too? Though again, I didn’t realize that we were even a rare group within the Advent Christian faith. Most AC’s in the overall denomination embrace the Trinity – but predominantly still believe in Conditional Immortality (to be obtained at the 2nd “Advent” of Christ). Here I always ask, how can you see the truth of one but not the other? But the pocket of AC folk that my Dad & Grandfather were from was from the Oklahoma & North Texas area. It seems these small churches were unitarian whereas most AC churches in the East & Northeast were trinitarian.
So I could say that there are Advent Christians (quite a few I know personally of course) that believe in these 5 truths. And there is a some history of fellowship between these AC people and the Church of God General Conference (because of those shared beliefs). Though sadly, errors have since creeped into those rare churches and truth isn’t always upheld today. Satan continues to snatch away the truth to keep it from being spread!
Another group that is close to getting all 5 – except they really get off track on #1, is the Worldwide Church of God people. They subscribe to the “God Family” belief (Anthony Buzzard was a Worldwide-er in his early years before he came to the truth). They also really push Sabbath keeping along with the various Hebrew Moons & Festivals. But they are conditional immortalists and Kingdom of God on earth believers. One splinter groups from them that I’ve got material on those subjects from is the “United Church of God” (http://www.ucg.org/).
I haven’t had much personal interaction with the Christadelphians or the JW’s other than email correspondence with a Christadelphian or two and the JW’s that go door-to-door. Though the visiting JW’s soon learn to stay away (until the next new crop hits the streets) after having a discussion or two with me on how their view of Jesus pre-existing as Michael the Archangel is just as flawed & wrong as the Trinity.
It is too bad about the ex-Way “Spirit of Truth & Fellowship” people. Both their sites (biblicalunitarian.com & truthortradtion.com) have a ton of excellent info on them about the first four. But you’re right about their OSAS & Tongue speaking being so legalistic. Sad.
Jaco,
That’s quite a story my friend. Glad to hear that God gave you the strength & fortitude to follow the truth of Scripture no matter the cost! I firmly believe anyone can discover the truth if they’re willing to follow it like that. But most people aren’t willing to let go of tradition & the comforts it and personal relationships within the faith provide. Most aren’t willing to sacrifice it all in order to go down that “rabbit hole” of real truth. It can be very scary to many at first.
Ray
The Bible describes God as a “person” and not some abstract, non-corporal quality of being. Which is what your implying it seems.
God the Father is a Who [a Person] and not a What [a spiritual quality of being]!
As Jaco, I am an ex-Jehovah’s Witness; but unlike him, I did not have the experiences he describes, although I totally see how things like that could happen. They just did not happen to me, or to anyone I know. The elders that I had in my congregation were loving and caring, most of them very knowledgeable in biblical matters. Ordinary brothers and sisters were also loving and warm, it was really like a big family.
What made me break away were the human traditions instituted – although the Organization was very much against the human traditions it could identify in all other religions. One such tradition for example was the “monthly report” you are required to give, containing information about how much time have you spent preaching the kingdom this month, how many magazines have you distributed, how many biblical studies you held with non-JWs, etc.
Not giving this report signals that you are kind of ill, spiritually. After a few months of not giving it, you are labeled “inactive” (not publicly though). Or reporting a lower than the congregation average of hours (less than 10-12 maybe), will book you a private meeting with elders trying to help you make more progress in this area.
Other things that I came to see as wrong were some of the doctrines – like the refusal of blood transfusions, etc.
The final blow was reading the books of high-ranking ex-JW about how decisions are made at the top, the grave mistakes they made, and the history of the organization.
I hold no grudge at all against my former associates, they were and still are wonderful people. It’s very hard to see the reality from inside, mainly because those who are exposing it are bitter, vociferous ex-JWs.
A quick note about what Ron said:
You might have gotten the wrong impression. They don’t necessarily stay away because you’ve might have “beaten” them in a debate, a more frequent reason is that they are told not to waste their time with people who show signs of close-mindedness, or with people bent on proving them wrong on whatever subject. These kind of people are not honest searchers of the truth.
And for what is worth, you kind of think like them. Some of your beliefs, for them, are “just as flawed & wrong” as you think about theirs. For instance, your choosing to see no pre-existence in John would be “just as flawed & wrong” as the Trinity
To them, you too, as all others, are part of the “Christendom”. So you see, it is a bit amusing to see you express yourself in this way. You obviously think are in possession of The Truth, and they are not. They think exactly the same. Oh, you have so much in common 
And what I have come to notice, is that all Abrahamic religions/groups/sects share the same divisive, exclusivist attitude. Judaism sees itself as the only ones approved by God. The situation is a bit more complicated with Christianity, where neo-protestants (including some “radical reformers”) think Jews are still close to be approved by God and will convert en-masse, but reality is that the majority of Christians (orthodox + catholic, some protestants) deny that, and think of themselves as the only religion approved by God. The Muslims think the same about themselves.
JW’s do not have a monopoly on their refusal to have fellowship with outsiders. It is something that has roots in Judaism (who of course refuse fellowship with those outside Judaism, and even among them, the “orthodox” refuse it to “reformed” Jews); from Judaism it was transmitted to Christianity, and the examples are plenty. The parable of the sower clearly states that the devil’s people will infiltrate the Christian congregation. The same idea is conveyed by the alleged warning of Paul in Acts, where he says:
Acts 20:29-30 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. 30 And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.
There is this paranoia that the pure congregation will be infiltrated by agents of Satan. Mosaic Law-abiding Christians – who were functioning in a way as a Mosaic Law police – were labeled by Paul as “false brothers secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on our freedom”. Then John’s community had real problems with Christian Jews who did not accept Jesus’ pre-existence (at least that’s the theory of R. Brown in his book “The Community of the Beloved Disciple”): he has Jesus labelling the Jews who believed in him as “sons of the devil”; the epistles of “John” continue in the same bellicose vein saying that some “went out” from their congregation, but were not truly of them; they are the deceivers and the antichrists because of their teachings, and one shouldn’t even greet them. The author of 1 Timothy also rails against Christians with differing theologies, saying their talk spreads like gangrene. The end of the false Christians will be destruction, according to the synoptic Jesus. The kingdom is like a dragnet that gathers all kind of fish, but the bad fish gathered will be thrown away, the “angels will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire”; “the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
In the light of all this atmosphere, I am not at all surprised of all these groups claiming exclusivity before God, all the other ones not being the real Christianity. After all, people here on this blog think exactly the same probably, that the majority of Christianity out there does not represent True Christianity, but is a perverted, gnosticized and altered Christianity, in darkness because of their “unchristian” teachings. They worship a foreign God (a Trinity), they have moved away from the focus on the Kingdom (are not ready in fact for the Kingdom, as the title of this website suggests), tainted by Greek philosophy; they are deluded. Right?
Typical of Abrahamic faiths. Muslims have all sort of fights too, about who are the real Muslims and who aren’t, who practices the real Islam and who isn’t. To sunnis, shiites are not true muslims. To Wahabbites, all other muslims not practicing the true Islam, but were tainted by foreign elements. Sounds familiar?
John E.
You said, “After all, people here on this blog think exactly the same probably, that the majority of Christianity out there does not represent True Christianity, but is a perverted, gnosticized and altered Christianity, in darkness because of their “unchristian” teachings. They worship a foreign God (a Trinity).”
I don’t believe that most people on this website believe this or that they think this way. I know I don’t! Whether we are Jewish or Jewish Christian or Trinitarians or Unitarians we all worship the same God and are engaged in the same noble search for the truth as everyone else. We have simply reached different conclusions at this point in our studies. People change over time this is normal.
There are many things that effect our search for the truth. Our mindset, our preconceptions, our relationships, our personalities, etc…
I came to this website with beliefs that no one else here shared with me and I was not rejected as worshiping some foreign God. The people here were very kind and respectful and welcoming toward me. They spoke from their hearts to me about what they believed was the truth to them (as they perceived it). They were honest and caring and not the least bit rude or angry toward me.
I agree that many groups do exist as you describe them but I strongly disagree that this is one of those groups. At least in my humble opinion anywaze…
Thomas,
you and a few others are exceptions. I wasn’t referring to you at all. But that is the impression I’ve formed while reading this blog. As for all worshiping the same God, that is not the case. Trinitarians worship Jesus, or the Trinity itself (Holy Spirit included).
Why would you tell me they “were very kind and respectful”, “honest and caring and not the least bit rude or angry toward me”, I didn’t say they weren’t. Did I? Xavier though wasn’t very welcoming
All I wanted to show is that refusal of fellowship and exclusivism are simply standard features in Abrahamic faiths. Thanks to Judaism of course.
JohnE
Welcome to this forum friend..
Hi everybody,
has been a long time since I wrote something here …
as for being nice and kind to each other, I must admit that I have been called names here and even been treated more on the rather harsh side of the communication scale …. I suppose because my understanding of a certain topic (not mentioned in your above list) is a “sacred cow” for a larger number of those folks who write here regularly
It seems to me that each group (perhaps better called “club”) has their particular “sacred cows”, and as long as one doesn’t touch those in any way, fellowship and sharing with each other is fine … but, once such an holy animal is being affected …. {you know the rest of the story of what then happens}
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Guys!
There are undoubtedly many loving congregations among the JWs. In different cultures different norms of hospitality will also be evident among those congregations. I also have no issue with the “rank and file” Witness (term actually used among Bethel officials).
The most loving and caring congregation, however, can turn into an inquisition room. During my life as a Witness I visited and spent extended periods of time with several congregations of different nationalities. The over-arching reality among all of them is that image is very important. Self-denial is the key. One’s righteousness is measured by how well one can trivialise shocking reality with nihilistic generalisations as, ‘it’s an honor to suffer for Christ,’ or, ‘Jehovah will sort out everything in his own time.’ I’ve seen innocent people victimised. Depressed and neurotic people insulted and marginalised. Psychotherapy is strongly discouraged, and the possibility of being offered hypnosis often had the already-wounded unwilling to fight yet another enemy. As Raymond Franz brought out in his books, there’s a work to do. Anything interfering with the work, and the subsequent rewards for doing it (receiving privileges, being regarded as strong, submitting a good field-service report), is considered a nuisance. So, while the Bible presents evangelising as a product of an already-established loving, involved, charitable Christian community (looking after orphans and widows in their tribulation – Jas. 1:27), many a brother or sister in desperate need of emotional, material or moral support simply have to wait for the other organisational, congregational and ministerial duties to be completed before receiving needed assistance.
Certainly there will be exceptions to what I’ve seen and experienced. I cannot, however, disagree with Raymond Franz, who related experiences of how certain elders, who had less field-service time to report due to greater involvement in shepherding duties, were frowned upon by travelling overseers. He can relate many more cases of this sort, seeing that he used to be a Governing Body member and Branch Coordinator himself.
According to the Watchtower, I and many others are haters of God and Jesus. Because I disagree with many harmful organisational policies, and see practical and Scriptural flaws in all of them, I am bad. If my disagreement with that policy becomes public knowledge, I will be dragged in front of a congregational judicial committee, and, unless I deny my stance and repent of my disagreement, I will be disfellowshipped for “causing division.” All contact with family and friends will be broken. My parents won’t attend my wedding. They won’t be there when my wife has our first child. When I’m ill, no Witness will be visiting me in hospital. If I die, I won’t have an honourable burial. If you’re a parent, just imagine being reminded time and time again, ‘Your child will die, your child will die. He is a hater of God, and will be destroyed.’ At least you’ll be able to visit the grave of the deceased and hope he’ll be resurrected. You see, however loving a congregation, if the Organisation says “shun,” you’ll shun! If the organisation says, someone is a hater of God, he’s a hater of God. If the organisation says those on the outside will be destroyed at Armageddon, you better believe it, else you’re bad too. This is so sad.
While the Witnesses pride themselves in loving God as ruler rather than man, and provide as evidence their stance on political neutrality in many countries (save Mexico and the Organisationally approved “Identity Cartilla” bribes), as an individual, you have to choose: either obey God as ruler, and stand by your case, but expect the harshest treatment any Witness can get; or renounce the convictions of your divinely-endowed conscience, supported by Scriptural evidence, and believe the Organisation’s men. Many choose the latter. I simply couldn’t.
This, and other forms of unloving treatment, have many Witnesses loose their lives, even their God. Many turn into angry atheists. Many a Witness has to endure excruciating treatment, since they feel they have nowhere else to go. They fear being rejected, being “left for dead,” as it were, not because of weakness, hardly because of wickedness, but because of a righteous and honest zeal for truth and reality; truth that Organisation simply cannot take. In their case, if you disagree, you die.
Many have taken a leap of faith. While the Watchtower says that if you leave this organisation, you’ll die as a hater of Jehovah, the Bible says:
Isaiah 41:11-13: “Look! All those getting heated up against you will become ashamed and be humiliated. The men in a quarrel with you will become as nothing and will perish. You will search for them, but you will not find them, those men in a struggle with you. They will become as something nonexistent and as nothing, those men at war with you. For I, Jehovah your God, am grasping your right hand, the One saying to you, ‘Do not be afraid. I myself will help you.’”
Heb. 13:13, 14: “Let us, then, go forth to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.”
In my case, I have found these and other Scriptures to be true. Membership to no organisation ensures one’s eligibility for everlasting life. Jesus is the sole and only judge. The true Christian congregation will allow for disagreement on non-essentials. Human policies will never be elevated to the level of irrefutable Divine Truth. Christian freedom will triumph and being ‘Christ’ to one another will be the norm. From my own experiences, corresponding with those of former Governing Body member and nephew of a Watchtower President, Frederick Franz, the Watchtower is very far from it…
What God will do about this, time will tell. I think his Name gets needlessly reproached. Many, many Witnesses have suffered and died needlessly. One thing I can say, and I think I speak for many, is that Jehovah never leaves you. Jesus will always be there for you. They appreciate integrity – that was exactly what had Jesus slandered, hated, even killed. No human – except Jesus – is worth our obedience, and because of that you’ll live. If everyone else leaves you for dead, Jehovah and Jesus will remember you, and you will be resurrected by them, you’ll see…
Jaco
Hi Brian
Thanks for thought-provoking points, I enjoyed your last article, too.
Like Jaco (he lives not that far away from me, and still owes me a visit!) and John E, I am also ex JW. I think that possibly my experience lies somewhere in the middle of their two. I also felt the insistence on “good” field service reports was wrong, and often demeaning, not to mention unscriptural. I too had many occasions to question the eshalons, especially one presiding overseer who ran off (literally, overnight) with a highly thought of (by the congregation) sister. His wife, faithful to him and to Jehovah, was left desolate, hospitalised with depression, and was largely ignored by the congregation- I think they weren’t sure what to do…
When I started to drift away, I received not a single phone call or visit, and still to this day have not.
I follow the Bible daily reading plan as emailed by the Christadelphians. I find the comments intelligent and good, generally ( I ignore the silly bits about Satan). I have to admit, I have never met a “real live” Christadelphian. I had the same experience with STF as you did, Brian- was made to feel a pariah- so that was that. I have had no experience with the other two Bible Student groups, but did look them up on the web. By the way, what is your web site URL please?
Church of God general conference feels right to me. The more I examine the beliefs, the more I learn, and am able to correct previous mis-beliefs. It is very unfortunate that they don’t seem to be here in South Africa at all. I even inquired on their google discussion group, no luck so far.
There is a spirit of animosity in the world at the moment, doubtless put there by Satan. Let’s not let it infiltrate our ranks,but rather stand together as a united (if small!) front.
Fiona
My family has a bit of history with The Way International (one branch which became Spirit and Truth Fellowship International). In the late 80′s, my brother attended their farm in Ohio and was a student of their founder, Dr. V.P.Wierwille. They were big into college campuses and starting TWIG bible study groups (in home fellowships). I was active duty Navy at the time and my brother sent me a number of books and teaching tapes while on deployments. Being raised Roman Catholic, my eyes were finally opened to reading the bible for myself. I received great insight on how to study the word myself and find the original Hebrew and Greek meaning of words. They were very strong in teaching members how to study God’s word. They were a loosly knit, nation wide organization until Dr. Weirwille died. Much internal power struggles began and the organization dissolved. (I do not presume to be an expert on the WHYs of this just relaying what was told to me.)
I sought out these in home fellowships wherever I was stationed. They were, for the most part, very friendly, accepting, loving people who studied the bible together. My youngest son is named after one of our previous fellowhip coordinators. As the organization deteriorated from the 90′s onward, the TWIGs became more and more exclusive. We were not encouraged to have friends outside the goup. We had to be trained by the group. There was a clear stance that the group was the only place to get the real truth. Sound familiar? I was actually scolded by a fellowhip coordinator because my teenage daughter missed a bible study. That was the last fellowship meeting we attended.
What I have often wondered is why COGAF hasn’t reached out to some of these former Way fellowships. If I’m not mistaken, there are quite a few that would welcome fellowshiping/attending. I learned of COGAF through Bob Mattheson (whom Sean has interviewed for his radio program.)
Is it so hard to believe that when someone dies who has received the gospel and believed, that by being connected to Christ by the spirit of God, their soul goes to him in heaven while their body remains lifeless in the earth, and that one day there will be a bodily resurrection?
Xavier, I believe words such as “I”, “me”, “my”, and such may also refer to beings, not just persons.
Are you saying that such terms can refer to persons only and never to beings, or a Spirit?
Ray
A “being” is a person, not only in the way the word is used in the phrase “human being“, but as signifying an individual, corporeal, entity.
Not some abstract non-being spiritual quality!
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all of your comments! As I suspected, we have all had varied “paths” in our faith journeys. The item that upsets me the most is when people are made to feel uncomfortable – or even become depressed – by the actions of an organization that purports to follow Christ.
I think I should stress again that the “vital” beliefs that I mentioned only apply to formal Bible studies. In other words, those beliefs are only necessary in order to have formal Bible studies with other people, without having constant disagreements.
In my view, we definitely should strive to be kind and loving to everyone we meet – regardless of whether people have the same beliefs as we do. (Remember: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you…)
Fiona, my website’s URL is: http://ncbf.homestead.com. I hope the info there is interesting to you!
Brian
Xavier, are Cherubims persons? I tend to think of them more as beings.
In looking at the word “soul” in my dictionary, it speaks of it as being an entity, though the word soul or souls may also refer to people or persons.
The soul being the part of man that is thought of as being responsible, or credited with the occupation or employment of thinking and willing, and therefore being what determines behavior
causes me to consider that this is the part which causes me to consider what God was speaking of when he said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..”
I believe men may refer to God as a Spirit, or even as a being, because God said that he is, (hence he is a being) and that he is what he is, such as love, kindness, patience, justice, fairness, equity, mercy, and such as we learn of him from the scriptures, all in one with nothing lacking.
This in no way makes him an impersonal being, or Spirit, does it?
I do not believe that it does.
Ray
We agree, “being” is not limited to human beings, it can also be applied to spiritual beings.
Bottom line is, as you say, being is not an impersonal [non-corporal] individual/entity.
I am a little late in joining the discussion, but thought Brian’s initial question was answered with interesting backgrounds and stories! I love hearing people’s stories of faith and personal testimonies. I think we are all on a spiritual journey to understand more and seek God and grow and mature in our faith, and it’s always wonderful to find another who is willing to walk alongside us, no matter the place where they started or where they are right now.
Brian’s question: “Have any of you spent any time, with any of the above groups?”
My answer is that I have spent much time with many Church of God’s of the Abrahamic Faith (COGAF for short). Between my husband and I, we have attended 4 regularly (because of moves) and have planted our 5th one in the town we are currently residing. Every church has it’s own personality, and even the people within each congregation are unique and you can find some different view points on various topics (which is okay and healthy!). I find the majority of them very, very open to accepting others into their midst and most often encourages an environment of healthy discussion and study of the Scriptures. At our church plant, we actually encourage people to express their doubts and questions, and to not take our word for anything, but to be Bereans and search for truth in their Bibles.
I think the COG General Conference would be very welcoming to others, but the problem is often us finding them, or them finding us. It’s hard to find people with our beliefs, just by googling different search words, unless you know specifically what to look for. That’s why it’s so important that we have blogs like this to get our beliefs out there. What we believe makes sense and is Scriptural, and many when they read their Bible would concur with them…they just can’t find us!
Our church plant is located in Knightstown, Indiana, and our website is http://www.kff.homestead.com, and we invite anyone and everyone to fellowship with us anytime. Our passion is God and His Only Begotten Son, Jesus, the kingdom in the age to come, and sharing this good news by loving people in the name of Jesus, the Lord Messiah.
Frank D,
They have. There are quite a few ex-Way individuals and whole groups that have embraced Abrahamic Faith beliefs. Besides Vince Finnegan and Bob Mathieson’s groups, there is also an entire church in Rhode Island that started as an offshoot of The Way and is closely aligned with Vince’s church.
However there are also a number of groups and individuals who, while agreeing on doctrines about the Trinity, the Kingdom, and the sleep of the dead, still have little to no fellowship with COGAF because of other issues. The most common of these seem to be “Once Saved Always Saved” and water baptism, as well as speaking in tongues. These groups seem to hold onto the attitude of “we are right and everyone else is wrong” that was so prevalent in The Way.
I was first introduced to COGAF through one such group in Syracuse, NY, where I learned many life-changing lessons. But after a time, they developed that “us vs. them” mentality and emphasized separation from “all who don’t hold the truth.” When I wrote a letter to its leader saying I thought such an attitude was not Biblical, I was told I was no longer welcome to fellowship with them. I have since heard of other instances there in which families were divided and animosity held toward brethren because of “holding wrong doctrines.” I’m thankful to no longer be a part of that. (I no longer live in Syracuse either.)
____
Ray,
Yes, when it contradicts the Scriptures.
____
Angela,
I tried your link and it didn’t work.
Xavier and Ray,
You guys are having an interesting discussion.
The problem I have with using dictionaries, is that they give a very wide definition of things. Often, these include non-biblical, philosophical, even mystical definitions of matters. It’s best to use lexicons of biblical words.
Something we need to remember when trying to “define” God, is to do it within the cognitive framework of the biblical universe or world-view. Fact is that what we understand to be a “person,” namely, having qualities belonging to man, is often used to describe God and divine beings (angels, seraphim, cherubim). Hence the many references to God and angels using anthropomorphisms, or “things pertaining to man.”
Technically speaking, the original semantic meaning of “person” is “to sound through.” So, philosophically (Greek/Roman) the human with a body is merely a means by which the spirit “sounds through.” Obviously this cannot be true biblically speaking. This is not a popular way of thinking about “person” today. Today, “person” means any living thing with a personality or behavioural and temperamental characteristics. According to this understanding, all humans are persons. As persons in God’s image, we can deductively say that God is also a person. Not only deductively, but also directly, since the Bible reveals God in human terms (anthropomorphisms) and human qualities. The same goes with angels (once again through anthropomorphisms.)
To merely state that God is spirit, and leave it at that, could be somewhat vague and in other instances misleading, seeing that from a biblical point of view, spirit can be both “personal” or “impersonal.” Describing God as spirit is the closest we get to describing God’s “substance” according to the Bible. The semantic range of the words ru’ach and pnevma include wind, breath (impersonal), spirit (angels, personal, or God’s means of activity, impersonal) or emotions (of personal origin). Thus, to say God is spirit is only a part of the picture. It’s like saying I am flesh. That’s only partially true. What makes me human requires the whole Gestalt of being human, namely, being flesh, alive, with uniquely human qualities, temperament, free will, conscience, spiritual capacity, etc. The same goes with God.
In the end, I think, it often boils down to semantics. Hence the Bible’s wide range of titles, descriptions, appellations and associations when speaking about God.
Jaco
Brian,
I’d like to add something. Your list is very accurate and comprehensive. Just one thing about the Watchtower’s teaching on eternal security.
Yes, they rightly deny individual eternal security. They do not, however, deny Organizational eternal security. See, as they believe, they have been eternally sealed as an organization in 1919 to be God’s chosen channel. Nowhere will you ever read of conditional approval by Jesus or Jehovah, or maybe mentioned as an aside. For instance, the Bible says:
Revelation 2:2 “‘I know your deeds, and your labor and endurance, and that you cannot bear bad men, and that you put those to the test who say they are apostles, but they are not, and you found them liars.’”
This is one of the points of the Watchtower’s dissimilarity with biblical Christianity. There is no tolerance for factual and healthy criticism of instituted policy and authority. While Jesus rewards zeal for truth and encourages challenging any human, regardless of his/her authority, on the basis of divine truth (Gal. 1:8, 9), the Watchtower punishes such behaviour. Years ago organ transplants were considered cannibalism. Vaccines were called “satanic pus” (no kidding), and transfusion of blood fractions was considered eating whole blood. Thousands upon thousands have died and suffered needlessly because of such unbiblical policies. Anyone who dared to challenge the Organisation back then, were summarily disfellowshipped. Today none of those policies apply anymore. Those who challenged thos policies back then, were wrongly disfellowshipped, since they turned out to be correct.
Another point:
Deut. 18:22 “…when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him. ”
See, this does not apply to the Watchtower. According to them, they are above the commandments of God…presumptuous, isn’t it? The Watchtower was wrong regarding 1914. For 11 years after 1914, until 1925, it was believed that Armageddon had taken place back then. Even though Jesus(!) said no one knew the time or day, the Watchtower presumed a position above that of Jesus and predicted the day. They were wrong. Rutherford, the President of the “Channel,” predicted that the resurrection would start in 1925. He even built a mansion, Beth Sarim (House of Princes) in San Diego to welcome those ancient worthies. Nothing happened, and he was wrong. Then came 1975. Many sold everything. Many took out loans from banks, since they were told that the Commercial System would end in 1975, hence, no need to pay those loans back! 1975 came and went, and thousands of faithfull Watchtower believers lost everything!!! Many even committed suicide.
All of this could have been prevented if individual Witnesses obeyed God as Ruler, rather than man. (Ac. 5:29) The Bible says, “do not be frightened at them.” The Bible says, “put those ‘apostles’ to the test.” The Bible says, “I will never leave you,” (Isa. 41:13), “I will provide you with escape” (Ps. 91), the Watchtower is still trusted by many. It still continues to ruin the lives of sincere believers and seekers for Truth. Contrary to the Bible, they feel that this Organisation is eternally secure…how wrong!
Jaco
Jaco
So when Jesus says it in John 4.24 he is not giving us the “full picture”?
Mark C, Good to hear. We were actually stationed in Newport, RI Jan – July 1997 and attended a fellowship in the Warwick area (I think). If I’m not mistaken, I have had the pleasure of meeting Vince during a conference.
I still listen to Bob’s PODcast and am blessed by how he has continued to grow, learn and teach. He remains a good friend of the family.
There are a few ex-Way fellowships here in the Phoenix,Az area. I should try and introduce them to Lakeshore Bible Church.
Hi Mark C.,
you mentioned above
Reading your lines almost sounds indicative of an idea that the COGAF is “the right” group, while all these others have some “wrong” things/doctrines on certain issues? Could it be that perhaps some of those things of the other groups could be “right” while the COGAF’s position on those issues would need some course correction?
On a more general note: It seems to me that just about anytime, anywhere Christians formed / organized themselves / incorporated themselves as a “group” (often called “church”, “ministry”, etc.), the seed for later troubles, splits, doctrinal wars, and “who knows what else”, etc. were sown already in the very beginning of such a group’s / association’s / club’s existence. For almost without exception, such group established itself on some kind of “statements of belief” / “set of accepted dogmas” / “articles of faith” / etc. which in and of themselves already take away the personal liberty a believer has in Christ and imposes on him/her a bondage to those articles of faith, which have been defined by man based on their particular understanding at the time. etc …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Frank,
Have you met Craig and Lauren Heiss at Lakeshore? They are ex-Way and have lived in Rhode Island and New York in the past.
_______
Wolfgang,
I was responding specifically to Frank’s question regarding COGAF reaching out to ex-Way people. I don’t believe that any group has all the truth. But in my experience, other ex-Way groups who disagree with some Abrahamic Faith doctrines are the ones who will refuse or at least limit fellowship based on doctrinal differences. By contrast the Abrahamic Faith churches are much more tolerant of other ideas regarding issues beyond the basics that Brian referred to above.
Hi Jaco,
That is a very good point about the JWs – that they believe that their organization has eternal security.
I have many issues with the JWs, but the biggest one is that before you become a JW, they tell you that you must question the doctrines of your current church. However, after you become a JW, then they tell you that you must not question the doctrines of your current church (the JWs). Is it just me, or does that sound rather hypocritical?
Wolfgang – good to hear from you again. Guten Tag!
Brian
Hi Angela,
If I’m not mistaken, I think the URL for your website is http://kff.homestead.com/. Is that correct? (I have a link to your site on my site – so I want to ensure that the link is correct!)
Brian
Hi again
I was doing a search for “Bible Students”, and came up with this page which has a whole hoard of groups that originated from Charles Russell (of WT fame). For those of you who are interested, it is at http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ear_01/ear_01_00111.html
Have Fun !
Fiona
Xavier,
Maybe you’re not doing it on purpose, but the above question is a “fallacy of complex questions.” No yes or no answer will actually answer it completely.
All I can say is, that no single statement can truly paint a full picture of who God is. Whether it is Jesus saying it or anyone else. It would only be part of the full picture, hence so many things Jesus said and did, explaining God to us.
Regards,
Jaco
Jaco
So even God’s very own incarnation [Jn 1.14] can’t give us a “full picture” of who God the Father is? Even though scripture time and time again testifies to the contrary?
And no, I am not doing whatever “fallacy of complex questions” is.
Xavier,
I said that no single statement can truly paint a full picture of who God is.
Logically, your argument does commit the complex question fallacy. And subsequently you erected a strawman. I stick to what I said in post #26.
You seem to be more inclined to disagreeing with the guys on the blog lately. For the sake of creating a greater sense of commonality and spiritual relatedness, I’d like to see also expressions of appreciation and agreement. Many of your posts are very well-researched.
Jaco
P.S. You’re in Sydney, right? As far as I can remember, you’re a student. What are you studying? Are you attending any BU church or fellowship there?
Hey Brian,
What about the group whose website you are writing on–Living Hope International Ministries?
Hi Sean,
That’s a good point – I certainly don’t want to forget this group!
However, from what I understand, Living Hope has basically the same beliefs as the Church of God General Conference. Is that correct?
Brian
Jaco
If I disagree with like-minded brethren on here, such as yourself, of course, it is only on certain details but not on principle. I would still like to think that we agree on the fundamentals of our faith.
Yes, for the moment. I am hoping to relocate to the USA soon.
I am doing what they call a BA in Christian Studies at a secular University here since I could not join any established theological college due to my beliefs regarding the Godhead.
I fellowship with part of my family and others in a home church setting. If you, or anyone else, would like to find out more about my “journey into faith” follow the link:
http://www.21stcr.org/multimedia/carlos_jimenez_interview/carlos_jimenez.html
Hi, all
This morning I browsed the Net to visit favorite sites I’ve not been able to visit for quite a while now. To my sadness I found on one ex-JW site the obituary of a former Governing Body member, Raymond Franz. He had died on the 30th of May already. Many Biblical Unitarians who used to be with the Watchtower will relate to me when I say that Raymond Franz had a key role to play in our living an authentic, shackle-free Christian life.
On his obituary card is the French proverb “There is no pillow so soft as a clear conscience.” I remember how I nervously downloaded Ray’s book, Crisis of Conscience 3 years ago. I remember how quickly I calmed down after starting to read it, and in what peaceful and non-judgmental manner brother Franz wrote his book. It was a time in my life when I started to speak up against serious congregational and organisational irregularities. See, a country as drenched in serious crime as South Africa, does not give that much priority to religious irregularities! I remember how as a 26 year-old, surrounded by disgruntled elders in an inquisition, I exposed and denounced one elder after another for slander, involvement and covering up of prostitution, fornication and possible child molestation. I remember their faces when I read Ezekiel 34 to them and how scared and alone I felt, knowing that I spoke up for truth and justice, expecting the worst of all things ever to happen to a Watchtower captive – disfellowshipping.
But then I also remember how safe I actually was. No finger to point at me. I remember the relief of not being shunned (for my family’s sake) but also the frowns from informed elders’ wives and fans everytime I walked into that icy Kingdom Hall.
But for one thing I am the most grateful of all: I never renounced my faith. As uncertain and confused I felt, I clung to my God Jehovah as much as I could. It was not long before I did preaching work with only a Bible. I simply could not distribute self-exalting, treacherous propaganda in the form of Watchtower periodicals anymore. I could not lie to the public anymore by telling them how safe and spiritually paradisaic this organisation is. My conscience did not allow me to.
Many are stuck in the fear-shackles of the Watchtower. Many suffer needlessly. On the site whereI read brother Franz’s obituary, I also read the comments of a 25-year old who became an atheist after leaving the Watchtower. That organisation rob people of their hope for the future. They’ve robbed people of their childhood, their health, their autonomy…even their lives. As with this 25-year old, the Watchtower even robbed them of their God and are left destitute.
How much these memories still hurt, the satisfaction of freedom is indescribable. In the vale of deepest shadow I was convinced that Jehovah and Jesus knew that I stood for truth. Those were the times I consoled myself that, dying, I can only take along one thing – my conscience.
Many will certainly not relate to the spiritual Exodus I and many other JWs have made. But just as certainly will there be seaching Witnesses needing the courage and the hope of life beyond the Watchtower – all in the name of God and Christ and above all, with a clear conscience.
Jaco