20 Reasons Why the Trinity Is Unbiblical (1)
July 22nd, 2010 by Guest Author
by Chuck LaMattina of Grace Ministry International.
1. In this study I am listing twenty biblical reasons why the doctrine of the Trinity is unbiblical. Here is number one: the old covenant understanding that God is one person. The great creed of Israel was “Here, O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God is one.” (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Indeed the Bible also states, “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD [Yahweh] Himself is God; there is none other beside Him.” (Deuteronomy 4:35) and “I am the LORD [Yahweh], and there is no other; There is no God besides Me.” (Isaiah 45:5). Yahweh, is the personal name of God and Yahweh is only one person.
Jesus Christ reiterated this old covenant creed. He said, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD [Yahweh] our God is one.” (Mark 12:29).
If the old covenant declared that there is only one God and one person who is God, that person being Yahweh; and if Jesus Christ affirmed that there is only one person who is God—Yahweh, we should think long and hard about blindly accepting the false notion that God is three persons.
Why couldn’t it refer to one multi-Personal Being?
Marc
Because there is no such thing. If anything the Divine Name, YHWH, should tell you how many “persons” your dealing with. :/
How many YHWHs are you exactly proposing here?
So says you.
Please supply any Scripture that NECESITATES God can not be a multi-Personal Being.
Let me help you….there are none.
Marc,
(1) Exodus 8:10, “…so that you may know that ‘THERE IS NO ONE’ like the LORD our God.”
(2) Deuteronomy 4:35, “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; ‘THERE IS NO OTHER’ besides him.”
(3) Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”
(4) Joshua 22:22, “”The ‘Mighty One’, God, the LORD! The ‘Mighty One’, God, the LORD!”
(5) Psalm 50:1, “The ‘Mighty One’, God the LORD, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting.”
(6) Psalm 78:41, “They tested God again and again and provoked the ‘Holy One’ of Israel.”
(7) Isaiah 29:23, “…they will sanctify the ‘Holy One’ of Jacob and will stand in awe of the God of Israel.”
(8) Isaiah 30:15, “For thus said the Lord GOD, the ‘Holy One’ of Israel…”
(9) Isaiah 43:3, “For I am the LORD your God, the ‘Holy One’ of Israel, your Savior.”
(10) Isaiah 48:17, “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the ‘Holy One’ of Israel…”
(11) Isaiah 54:5, “…and the ‘Holy One’ of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.”
(12) Isaiah 55:5, “…because of the LORD your God, and of the ‘Holy One’ of Israel, for he has glorified you.”
(13) Isaiah 60:9, “…or the name of the LORD your God, and for the ‘Holy One’ of Israel…”
(14) Jeremiah 51:5, “…is full of guilt against the “Holy One’ of Israel.”
(15) Hosea 11:12, “…but Judah still walks with God and is faithful to the ‘Holy One’.”
(16) Mark 10:18, “Why do you call me good? ‘No one’ is good except God alone.”
(17) Mark 12:29, “Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
Now please show me just “ONE” verse that states that God is a multi-Personal Being…
Marc
Multi-Personal is a contradiction. Like the compound one/unity stuff you guys keep harking back to.
So how many YHWHs are you proposing?
DT,
I stopped reading after your first Scripture reference. Thee is only one God…very good! I agree! None of those texts teach that this one God can not be a multi-Personal God.
There is only one multi-Personal God.
Proof? See here:
http://kingdomready.org/blog/2010/08/19/20-reasons-why-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-is-unbiblical-5/
—————
Xavier,
Funny you inist that it is a “contradiction” but then supply ZERO texts for your assertion. A Xavier said so theology just doesn’t cut it.
Marc, you are asking for proof that is not there. But I think you already know that, which is why you are asking a silly question for Unitarians to prove that a multi-personal God does not exist. The proof we have given you, because there is only one God that is amongst false gods. Your Jesus is a false god. No other way around it other than to twist the meaning of what we are told God is in scripture.
I got one for you, prove that Jesus does not have a God? God does not have a God, I’m sure we agree. So when Jesus says he has a God then you must prove that he doesn’t.
Marc
The Jewish/Christian creed of the Shema along with the thousands of singular-personal pronouns is evidence enough for a Single, Personal God. Not some multi-Personal Orthodox creation. The text simply does not support that interpretation and all biblical scholars/translators attest to this. Just open up any Bible and you will see. Then again, perhaps you cannot see!
Marc,
You said, “None of those texts teach that this one God can not be a multi-Personal God.”
What do you think Moses meant when he wrote in Exodus 8:10 that, “…so that you may know that ‘THERE IS NO ONE’ like the LORD our God”???
It is clear he is saying that “THERE IS NO ONE” like the LORD our God. You can’t get much clearer then that.
What do you think Moses meant when he wrote in Deuteronomy 4:35 that, “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; ‘THERE IS NO OTHER’ besides him”???
It is clear he is saying that “THERE IS NO OTHER” besides him. Again you can’t much clearer then that.
What do you think Moses meant when he wrote in Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one”???
He didn’t say, “The LORD our God, the LORD is one Godhead comprised of 3 persons.
What do you think Y’shua meant when he said in Mark 10:18, “Why do you call me good? ‘NO ONE’ is good except God alone”???
You claim that “Jesus is God” but here we have Jesus himself saying, “Why do you call me good? ‘NO ONE’ is good except God alone.”
What do you think Y’shua meant when he said in Mark 12:29, “…The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one”???
Combine this with all the other quotes I quoted that show that “GOD IS ONE” being, and not some sort of multi-personal being. And you can clearly see why I keep saying that your claim that the God of the bible is a “Triune God” is in fact a false claim. You also repeatedly refuse to answer simple and direct questions that I have asked of you. I ended msg. #4 with a very simple question;
“Now please show me just ‘ONE’ verse that states that God is a multi-Personal Being.”
The reason you can’t is because “The Doctrine of the Trinity” is just a man-made doctrine based on some speculations made from a few vague verses. The Trinity “IS NOT” clearly taught anywhere in the bible, and this “Triune God” that you keep talking about is clearly not the God of the bible…
Still waiting for a passage from Scripture that teaches God can not be one multi-Personal God.
————
DT,
Exodus 8:10 – I agree that there is only one God. See my sentence above.
Funny that you (nor any other Unitarian) responded to the thread I cited in post #6.
Here it is again in case you missed it:
http://kingdomready.org/blog/2010/08/19/20-reasons-why-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-is-unbiblical-5/
Thus far I only see my comment there.
Marc
Still waiting for you to recognize the Shema.
Here’s another good one Gal 3.20: “God is only One Person” [AB].
Marc,
You said, “Still waiting for a passage from Scripture that teaches God can not be one multi-Personal God.”
If as Exodus 8:10 states, “…‘THERE IS NO ONE’ like the LORD our God.” That includes the Son and the Holy Spirit and anyone else.
In case there is any confusion, Deuteronomy 4:35 states, “…‘THERE IS NO OTHER’ besides him.” In other words it clearly says God is not a multi-Personal God.
I’m still waiting for you to provide “ONE” scripture that says, God is a multi-Personal God.
You come on this site making random comments on different threads and expect that every single one of these comments be responded to. Yet you continue to refuse to answer simple questions that people ask of you. We all have questions that we’ve asked of you that have not been responded to.
I have repeatedly asked you the same question over and over in msg. #123, msg. #128, msg. #139, and msg. #173 of the “Who you gonna call?” thread. It is a very simple question; “How can you possibly explain away Luke 2:52. After all, if Jesus is God (as you claim), Then, How can God possibly increase in stature and in favor with God???”
Why do you insist that every comment you make be responded to, yet you do not return the same respect towards us???
Xavier,
Galatians 3:20 teaches that God is one….not that He isn’t multi-Personal.
——————
DT,
Thanks for your own take on Exodus 8:10…gotta source for your “proof”
Marc,
The text is self evident. It clearly says, “… ‘THERE IS NO ONE’ like the LORD our God” and it clearly says, “…‘THERE IS NO OTHER’ besides him.” You can’t get any clearer then that.
Where is your scripture that says God is multi-Personal being???
Marc,
Can I get your trinitarian perspective on Romans 8:17? When it is said we are heirs of God, that makes sense to both trinitarian and unitarian. But then it says we are ‘co-heirs’ with Christ. How can we be co-heirs with Christ if Christ is also God? Does that not make God an heir of himself and put man on the same level as God?
DT,
Correct there is no one like the LORD. Where does it teach that the LORD can not be multi-Personal? Nowhere.
This article stated that, “we should think long and hard about blindly accepting the false notion that God is three persons.”
That is the assertion which they can not prove.
————————
Antioch,
Christ is also a Man.
God is not an heir of Himself. The Father is not the Son.
Marc
Can you cite to one example where God is “the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit”?
Psalms 119:160 teaches the SUM of God’s word is truth…so it won’t be “one example” for the WHOLE Bible (all the words of it) needs to be examined.
Marc
But surely there must be at least 1 verse in the whole of the Bible that defines God as “the Father, Son & Holy Spirit”…surely!
See post #18.
Why does it have to be in just one verse? What rule says that it does? Cite your source please…..not your opinion.
Marc
Okay give us 10 then! I do not care how many you give.
Marc,
Xavier asked, “But surely there must be at least 1 verse in the whole of the Bible that defines God as “the Father, Son & Holy Spirit”…surely!”
You replied, “Why does it have to be in just one verse? What rule says that it does? Cite your source please…..not your opinion.”
You keep repeating this false claim that the Trinity doctrine is clearly taught in the bible but you cannot provide even one verse that clearly teaches the basic precepts that are taught by the Trinity. You claim God is multi-Personal being, even though there is not one verse that explicitly states this, and you ignore the many verses that say that “God is One” and that ‘THERE IS NO ONE’ like the LORD our God” and that, “…‘THERE IS NO OTHER’ besides him.”
You claim the Holy Spirit is a person, even though there is no scripture that explicitly states that the Holy Spirit is a person. You claim the Holy Spirit is equal to God and actually “IS” God even though there is no scripture that explicitly states either of these things.
You claim that Jesus is equal to God and actually “IS” God even though there is no scripture that explicitly states this either. On top of that you also ignore the many verses that we have quoted that explicitly state that Jesus “IS NOT” equal to God.
In msg. #16 you said, “This article stated that, ‘we should think long and hard about blindly accepting the false notion that God is three persons.’ That is the assertion which they can not prove.”
Where are all your scriptural proofs that explicitly teach all these different doctrines that the Trinity teaches???
Like all Trinitarians you can “ONLY” imply these Trinity doctrines indirectly from vague verses that other people can interpret and understand differently then you do. “NONE” of the Trinity doctrines are explicitly taught anywhere in the bible. This notion that God is three persons is not even mentioned “ONCE” in the entire bible.
Why on earth should anybody believe it, if the bible doesn’t explicitly teach it???
DT
You forgot 1 John 5.7-8…
Xavier and anyone else,
Before I go into specific details where the Trinity is taught in the Bible I want first stick with the subject of THIS THREAD.
Answer this:
Is there a passage that teaches that it is impossible for the One God to be a One multi-Personal God? If so, then please cite the passage. If not, then admit it and I will then address what I have written above.
Marc,
You said, “Before I go into specific details where the Trinity is taught in the Bible…”
I think you mean to say, “Before you imply the specific details indirectly from vague verses that don’t implicitly and directly teach the Trinity doctrine.” In msg. #22 (above) I mentioned the 7 basic teachings of the “Trinity doctrine”. It is clear that none of these basic teachings are explicitly or directly taught in the bible. All of these teachings have to be implied indirectly from vague verses.
To summarize. The Seven basic teachings of “The Trinity Doctrine” are;
(1) God is three separate persons in one being.
(2) Therefore God is a multi-Personal being.
(3) The Holy Spirit is a person.
(4) The Holy Spirit is equal to God.
(5) The Holy Spirit is God.
(6) Jesus is equal to God.
(7) Jesus is “God the Son”.
Of course each one of these teachings/doctrines has to be implied indirectly from vague verses that other people can interpret and understand differently then Trinitarians do. Not “ONE” of these teachings/doctrines is explicitly or directly taught anywhere in the bible. Yet, for some unknown reason, the Trinitarians claim that these teachings/doctrines are indisputable…
DT,
In typical Unitarian fashion you dodged my question.
Sadly, there are still many Trinitarians that use this verse and believe it to be scripture.
Sadly many Unitarians spend so much of their time on it rather than the passages I cite.
Yes, the evidence has been shown to you in a variety of ways, but you choose to not accept it. That is not our problem, that is Marc’s issue he needs to deal with.
We have shown you numerous scriptural evidences that says God is not multi-personal because he is solo personal. So in other words, it doesn’t say it, Marc. And you can’t cite where it does say it, so you try and sway the argument for us to prove something that doesn’t exist. That’s all.
Terms like, only, alone, ect, coupled with what I cited as the grammar proof in Hebrew which shows only singular grammatical language on thousands of occurrences when used toward God.
Let’s move on to your next point because we have given more than enough of an answer.
The evidence has been shown but not one passage was cited. Thanks for your oxymoronic response.
The only passages cited simply spoke of there being one God. Nothing was shown that this one God can not be a one multi-Personal God.
No, were are not moving on. I know this is how heretics like to operate. Ignore or give ridiculous responses to my questions then insist that it has been properly answered. Nope. Won’t work.
Marc, in order for you to prove that one God can be multi-personal, you must be able to show that the singular Hebrew grammar used for God is not really singular.
Something that is impossible to do so you fall back on the “can’t fully understand God argument.”
That is not proof. And I take it you can’t cite any proof so please move on.
Marc
Elohim [2,570 times] or YWWH [6,800 times] never refer to more than one person in the OT. And theos [1,300 times] in the NT regularly refers to the person of the Father.
Paul declared,
“To us Christians there is one God and none besides him; there is to us one God, the Father” (see 1 Cor. 8:4-6).
This is the same God that Jesus called “his God” and “our God” in John 17:20…
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
Now, let’s see, do I believe the words of Paul and Jesus here in context, or do I believe Marc or other non-biblical entities?
Hmmm…..
Marc,
You said, “In typical Unitarian fashion you dodged my question.”
You also said, “The evidence has been shown but not one passage was cited. Thanks for your oxymoronic response.”
I already answered you question in msg. #9 above and I cited several passages. Instead of retyping the passages I will just paste the message below for you to read;
“Marc,
You said, “None of those texts teach that this one God can not be a multi-Personal God.”
What do you think Moses meant when he wrote in Exodus 8:10 that, “…so that you may know that ‘THERE IS NO ONE’ like the LORD our God”???
It is clear he is saying that “THERE IS NO ONE” like the LORD our God. You can’t get much clearer then that.
What do you think Moses meant when he wrote in Deuteronomy 4:35 that, “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; ‘THERE IS NO OTHER’ besides him”???
It is clear he is saying that “THERE IS NO OTHER” besides him. Again you can’t much clearer then that.
What do you think Moses meant when he wrote in Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one”???
He didn’t say, “The LORD our God, the LORD is one Godhead comprised of 3 persons.”
What do you think Y’shua meant when he said in Mark 10:18, “Why do you call me good? ‘NO ONE’ is good except God alone”???
You claim that “Jesus is God” but here we have Jesus himself saying, “Why do you call me good? ‘NO ONE’ is good except God alone.”
What do you think Y’shua meant when he said in Mark 12:29, “…The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one”???
Combine this with all the other quotes I quoted that show that “GOD IS ONE” being, and not some sort of multi-personal being. And you can clearly see why I keep saying that your claim that the God of the bible is a “Triune God” is in fact a false claim.”
End of message…
Marc,
Speaking of dodging questions, in msg. #12 above I asked you the following 2 questions;
(quote) “I have repeatedly asked you the same question over and over in msg. #123, msg. #128, msg. #139, and msg. #173 of the “Who you gonna call?” thread. It is a very simple question; “How can you possibly explain away Luke 2:52. After all, if Jesus is God (as you claim), Then, How can God possibly increase in stature and in favor with God???”
Why do you insist that every comment you make be responded to, yet you do not return the same respect towards us???” (end quote).
Are you ever going to explain, How you can possibly explain away Luke 2:52???
DT,
I suppose his answer will be that the Trinity God can now switch degrees of being in favor with themselves and evolve as Gods. Just like he said that the Trinity God can switch omniscience with each other and still be God.
Trinitarians better be thankful they have Marc to make these types of rules up. I never have met anyone who understands God’s processes so much and also claim that man can’t fully understand God.
DT,
Your posts are too longwinded so I’m not even going to bother. Get yourself a pulpit and carry on as long as you wish….
Nothing has been shown that this one God can not be a one multi-Personal God.
——————————-
The Messenger of YHWH is referred to as YHWH.
1. Hosea 12:3-5
In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God (Hosea 12:3).
Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, (Hosea 12:4)
Even the LORD, the God of hosts, The LORD is His name (Hosea 12:5).
Hosea informs us that the Messenger of the LORD’s name is YHWH.
2. This Messenger of YHWH was prayed to in Genesis 48:16.
Marc
One last time…YHWH is described in the Bible as having a “soul” [Lev 26.11, 30; Zech 11.8; Isa 1.14; Jer 32.41] and a “spirit” [Gen 6.3; Isa 42:1; Neh 9.30]. This should communicate to the reader that we are dealing with One single Personal Being, and not some “multi-personal”, “spiritual nature” — certainly not one “what” or one “essence.” I mean how many “souls” or “spirits” do you have?
Furthermore, you have thousands of singular personal pronouns used in connection with this Personage. Equaly if we were dealing with a “multiplicity of Persons” where is the proper grammar to back them up?
http://inthenameofwhowhat.blogspot.com/2010/04/god-is-person.html
Xavier,
Creator is used in the Hebrew as a plural – literally reading “Creators” (Ecclesiastes 12:1) and “Makers” (Psalm 149:2 and Isaiah 45:9; 54:5).
Oh and in typical fashion you ignored what I wrote concerning the Messenger of YHWH.
Let me guess….you just didn’t “see” it
Marc
Okay so why are these not followed by thousands of plural pronouns/verbs like “They, Them” etc., telling us clearly that we’re dealing with a “multi-personal God”?
Glad you reintereated this point. Can you explain this to me…
Hebrews 1.1-2 says that in “ancient times” [i.e., OT times] God did not speak through His Son. Add to this what I wrote in the other thread concerning the fact that God cannot be seen, be it God the Father, Son or HS.
SUMMATION: We have a “silent” Messenger without a message. And a God the Son who is invisible.
Please explain?!
Marc,
You said, “Your posts are too longwinded so I’m not even going to bother.”
First you complain that we are not quoting any scriptures. Then in msg. #34 I responded with “FOUR” verses that show that God is not a multi-Personal being. Then you actually have the nerve to respond by saying that my posts are too long, so your going to even bother to read them.
You also said, “Nothing has been shown that this one God can not be a one multi-Personal God.”
I showed you in msg. #34, but you refuse to even read these “FOUR” verses that I quoted. This doesn’t surprise me though. In the “Who you gonna call?” thread, I gave you “FIVE” verses that show that Jesus is not God. You responded in msg. #54 by saying, “I am not going to bother refuting all of your heresy here.” Apparently you think you just have to label my beliefs as heresy, and that excuses you from engaging in a civilized discourse.
I have repeatedly asked many questions of you, and you repeatedly refuse to answer even the simplest of questions (one example is the question I quoted in msg. #35 above). Yet you continue to repeat the false claim that “WE” are evasive. In msg. #26 above, you actually had the nerve to say, “DT, In typical Unitarian fashion you dodged my question.”
You repeatedly call us heretics and refer to our beliefs as heresies. Yet not “ONE” person on this site has ever insulted your beliefs. No-one has ever called you a heretic. I have tried my best to have a civilized dialogue with you. Of course it is impossible to have a civilized dialogue with someone who repeatedly insults you and your beliefs, and who repeatedly refuses to answer simple questions, and who even refuses to read my responses to their questions.
Therefore this will be the last message I send you. I wish you luck in your future studies and endevours, and hope that you will one day find the peace and love of God (‘OUR” Father) in your life. God Bless…
Xavier,
It just takes one example for it to be true. God doesn’t have to repeat Himself.
Hebrews 1:2 God speaks of the Gospel of the New Covenant by means of His Son. This was not the same as in the Old Covenant.
So we still have the Messenger being referred to as YHWH (Hosea 12:3-5) and this Mesneger is prayed to (Genesis 48:16).
Marc
The text reads…
How is this limited to “the Gospel of the New Covenant”? What Bible version are you reading from?
Regardless, Jesus says that since the time of Torah and the prophets “the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached” [Luke 16.16; Mat 11.12]. Or do you have, like Paul says, “another Gospel” [2Cor 11.4] in mind?
Lastly, if the Son is the angel/messenger of YHWH. when did God EVER say to one of His angels, “You are my Son. Today I have begotten you.” Please cite to me where it says angels are begotten creatures.
Where in the Old Covenant did they have to confess the Lord Jesus in order to be saved (Romans 10:9, 10)?
Answer: Nowhere
So it is not the same.
Marc
You obviously are unaware of what the Bible means by “the Gospel about the Kingdom of God and the things pertaining to Messiah Jesus” [Acts 8.12]. It is not just about “confessing with your mouth Jesus is lord”.
Its incredible how dismissive you are of Jesus’ very own words!
Xavier,
Thanks for not supplying an Old Covenant passage where one must confess the Lord Jesus.
Marc
To get back to point…Heb 1.1-2 simply and clearly says “God did not speak through His Son” in the OT. Its not about what God said or did not say in the OT. My point is that if as you say the Son was already there, he obviously had nothing to say. Or else, this is a perfect time for God to say, “In ancient times I spoke through God the Son”.
He did not speak through His Son concerning the Gospel message. The book of Hebrews constantly speaks of the new covenant being better and eradicating the old covenant.
The Messenger of YHWH is being prayed to in Genesis 48:16 – proving a multi-Personal God. It can not be a case of Agency for Jacob was already in God’s presence in prayer (Genesis 48:15).
Marc
Your adding to the text which simply says what I have typed already. GOD DID NOT SPEAK THROUGH A SON!
Xavier,
You fail to take into acount the context…let alone the entire book from which this passage was taken. That is a poor hermeneutical approach.
Marc
How am I falling short of the text when I am quoting it as is? The entire chapter of Hebrews 1 is all about how the Son is NOT AN ANGEL/MESSENGER. For to which of the angels did God ever say ‘You are my son BECAUSE I have begotten [fathered] you’?
Xavier,
You must take into acount the entire book as well and a major theme of it is about how the new covenant replaces the old covenant.
The Son is not a created angel. Angel in Greek (and Hebrew) has more than one meaning. You know (or should know) that.
Marc
Yes I agree ONE OF the themes is “covenantal replacement”.
But, again I must stress my initial point: God does not speak through a Son in the OT. Even if he was the angel of YHWH, God here says he did not speak through the Son. Which makes the Son/angel a messenger without a message! Or, he had a message but God here says he did not deliver it.
Choose your poison.
Gentlemen,
I have to say my heart is heavy after reading this blog. What are you trying to prove? Whether you take the Unitarian or Trinitarian view do you think that you will persuade the other side by the way you are writing to each other? Your language is demeaning, belittling and hurtful. After reading this I am almost convinced that you are not trying to get the other side to believe what you believe, but rather you are arguing to make the better point.
As Christians we are not called to act in this way. The way you are acting will cause division in the Church. The world will look at this and mock us. The world needs to look at God’s Church and see God. The Church of Jesus Christ should be drawing people and if you are acting this way to the Body, how are you acting to the world? The world clearly disagrees with all of us. We cannot act this Brothers. I am saying this to you because I love you, all of you!
Truth is important. But not at the cost of not loving our neighbor. That is the second greatest commandment.
Matt 22.39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
Please hear this. if we want to help each other believe the truth, that is one thing. But this is not helping each other.
Joe
What “Body” are you speaking of? I am sure Marc and any other trini does not see people us biblical unitarians as part, or even a “member”, of the “Body” they represent.
Xavier
Even if you do not believe that we are of the same Body as Trinitarians, that should not change our love that we should have for them. Jesus calls us to love all people, even those who hate us. And by this love we change people.
Joe
Agreed.
It would be “unloving” NOT to speak the truth in love Joe.
But please, ask Marc if he sees us as “members of the Body”.
Joe
Many, many people have been “converted” to various other religions who have shown them “love”. But love, as it’s popularly known, can be deceptive. This can only be found out when we experience a sensation we equate with love but on hindsight we realize that it wasn’t love at all. In other words, love can also be faked, fabricated. This happens more often than not because we so thirst and hunger for love that we go head first, blind, like a runner in the dark.
Hope you can take the time to read this article I wrote some time back if your interested in knowing where I am coming from…
http://inthenameofwhowhat.blogspot.com/2009/09/whers-love.html
I am concerned about your hearts and motives. I read this blog and I see Christians making fun of each other, using words to belittle. I just honestly don’t understand, because if I asked you all what is the purpose for this discussion it would probably be; to help someone see the truth, or; come to a knowledge of what is right. But the way you are all carrying yourselves in this discussion counteracts helping someone. Are you really trying to help the person with what they believe? if you are, great. If not, you need to look at why you are doing this.
I was just reading James 4 today and I don’t think that is what a coincidence.
James 4.1 “What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? [fn]Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?”
Your quarreling in this way is satisfying your lust for pleasure.
I would ask you all to seriously consider what I am saying. Ask yourself if carrying yourselves this way is really bringing glory to our great God. If it is really trying to help the other side. While we argue and debate over these things, there are many people out there who are waiting for a Shepard. And I know that seeking after truth is very important, but not at the cost of not having love for our neighbor. And the love that I am talking about is 1st Corinthians 13 love.
You can know all things and believe everything in the Bible perfectly, but if you don’t have love it means nothing. Love as defined by Paul: Patient, kind, not bragging, not arrogant, does not seek its own, is not provoked.
I love you all,
your brother,
Joe
Joe,
You said, “Even if you do not believe that we are of the same Body as Trinitarians, that should not change our love that we should have for them. Jesus calls us to love all people, even those who hate us. And by this love we change people.”
I agree. I admit that I was a bit brash in some of my postings and I apologize.
You also said, “And I know that seeking after truth is very important, but not at the cost of not having love for our neighbor.”
I’d like to say a “huge” AMEN to that. Thank-you for reminding us of what’s really important…
Joe
I can only speak for myself Joe and yes, I am supposed to try and persuade people to the sound doctrine. And your right, sometimes I do go overboard and that is where most of us fail with the commandment to defend the faith “with gentleness and respect” [1Pe 3.15].
There is no satisfaction in arguing and trying to answer a moot question like, ‘How many is God?’
Just because I disagree and debate people who say things like “God died” or “God is a human being” or “God has a God”, does not mean I do not love them. In this particularly case I don’t even know who Marc is.
But I guess you did not take the time to read my article? Let me just sum up Paul with this simple Christian statement…“Love does not rejoice with ERROR.”
Joe
PS: I wish we could all live by the saying made famous by Rodney King… “Can’t we all just get along?”
Joe
I’m curious as to what examples you can show us of what you consider not being “loving?” You can’t generally accuse this blog of being unloving without citing some posts so we can see them in context and whether your claim is warranted.
Love needs to be taken in context in a debate format. Just because one doesn’t say “God bless you” after every post in a debate does not mean they think less of the person their debating.
To me, you are coming across this debate thread with a “holier than thow” attitude when it’s not warranted. The truth is a double edged sword and isn’t always accepted kindly. Nothing wrong with heated debate, in fact, it’s a healthy way of seeing who is right and who is wrong. Remember, one can love someone down the path to hell as well. Perhaps you should be more concerned with your own intentions? When I come here to learn and exchange, I don’t come to pat each other on the back all day, I come to get some good meat, and grind out what is the truth.
Joseph
Now you’ve done it! Your offending all the veggies. You meat eater you.
Xavier,
If by veggie you mean someone that would rather show love and respect for my brother rather than to fight with my brother, then I guess I am a veggie. Although I do enjoy having some steak once in awhile…