Jesus’ Main Teaching
July 28th, 2010 by Guest Author
by Martin Willemoes Hansen of Jesufrelse.dk
JESUS’ MAIN TEACHING: GOD’S COMING KINGDOM ON THE EARTH
“I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent” (Luke 4:43).
It was this message Jesus preached as the good news, as the Gospel.
“Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom” (Matt 4:23; 9:35). He urged the people, saying “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness” (Matt 6:33). And taught his followers to pray: “Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” (Matt 6:10).
Jesus foretold that “this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come” (Matt 24:14). And after God, his father, had raised him from the dead, he held a six weeks 'seminar' where he spoke ”… of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3).
During almost all of Jesus earthly ministry, he preached the gospel of the kingdom and that without mentioning his death and resurrection. Only about two weeks before he was crucified did he mention it to his followers.
Jesus said to them, “the Son of Man will be … delivered to the Gentiles and … They will … kill Him. And the third day He will rise again”. “But they understood none of these things” (Luke 18:31-34). Note that they had been preaching the Gospel for many years, but did not understand this new information.
After Jesus' resurrection and just before his ascension “He opened their understanding … [that] it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead … and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations” (Luke 24:45-47). Thus this information was added to the Gospel.
Paul who was taught by Jesus, followed in his masters footsteps and spoke much about this second part of the Gospel – How God reconciles people with Himself by remitting and forgiving their sin through the shed blood of the Christ.
He taught that we, as followers of the Christ, “when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son” (Rom 5:10). And he said: “I declare to you the gospel … first of all … that Christ died for our sins … and that He rose again” (1 Cor 15:1-4). We see here that the death and resurrection of the Christ is among the first things pertaining to the Gospel, but not the complete Gospel in itself.
He said to the Ephesians that in Jesus “we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins” (Eph 1:7) and told the Thessalonians, that Jesus the Christ, “died for us, that … we should live together with him” (1 Thess 5:10).
As other Gospel preachers, like Phillip, Paul preached all of the Gospel, as one package. Philip “preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ” and “when they believed Philip … [they] were baptized” (Acts 8:12). Many came to Paul and he “explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God persuading them concerning Jesus” (Acts 28:23). Paul received all who came to him, “preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 28:31).
Jesus did not originate his teaching from himself, but said “the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak” (John 12:49). “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me” (John 6:45). Indeed those who have heard and understood the message of God which he spoke through his prophets, would recognize Jesus as God's spokesman.
The prophets of God said much about the coming Kingdom of God on the Earth. The prophet Daniel foretold that “the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed” and that it would fill “the whole earth” (Dan 2:35, 44). Furthermore he predicted, that “the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! … was given … a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him … and his kingdom [is] the one which shall not be destroyed.” He also mentioned that “the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High” (Dan 7:13-14,27).
Jesus the greatest Gospel preacher ever, taught about God's plan to establish His kingdom on the Earth and grant access to it, through the shed blood of the Christ and how he had prepared it from the beginning. In the future glorious day, Jesus the King will say to the blessed, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt 25:34). Peter who was taught by Jesus, tells how it is possible to enter the Kingdom through “the precious blood of Christ … [which God] … foreordained before the foundation of the world” (1 Pet 1:19-20).
God had a kingdom on the earth, a people and a king anointed by him, as His representative. This kingdom was a shadow of the kingdom of God to come.
King David said that God had chosen his son, “to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel” (1 Chron 28:5). Solomon was anointed king and “sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father” (1 Chron 29:23). The prophet Nathan spoke to King David and foretold that, “When … you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom … and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. … My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever” (2 Sam 7:12-16).
Before the birth of Jesus, the angel Gabriel announced that Jesus “will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David” (Luke 1:32). Jesus foretold that when he returns in the future “in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory” (Matt 25:31). The followers of Jesus asked the question, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” This is of course the right and natural question to ask, after having heard Jesus “speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God” for six weeks. The timing was the issue and the angels of God made it clear, that this event was still in the future, when they said “this same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner” (Acts 1:3, 6, 11).
Believers throughout history has been promised an inheritance in the coming Kingdom. Abraham was promised land for himself and his descendants (Gen 13:14-15). In Psalm 37:9 we read, that “evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth”. Thus the Good News about the Kingdom of God, is both a promise and a threat. Because this is of utmost importance, it is repeated throughout the psalm.
In one of Jesus most famous teachings, he quotes Psalm 37:11, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Matt 5:5) and he warns the wicked, that “the angels will come forth, [and] separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. [Where] there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 13:49-50).
Paul taught, what he learned from Jesus, that “Those who are of [Abraham's] faith are blessed with believing Abraham”, because “the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, [shows that God] preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, 'In you all the nations shall be blessed'” (Gal 3:8-9). Thus we see that the message about the Kingdom is for all people. God's plan is to take out of the nations “a people for His name” (Acts 15:14), before setting up the Kingdom on the Earth.
The saints of God will rule with the Christ in the Kingdom: “Behold, a king will reign in righteousness, and princes will rule with justice” (Is 32:1). “The greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High” (Dan 7:27).
Jesus promised his good and faithful servants authority over cities and warned that “the unprofitable servant [would be cast] into the outer darkness. [Where] there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Luke 19:17-19; Matt 25:30). He told his inner circle, “that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, … [ruling] the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matt 19:28).
After Jesus' ascension, God gave him a revelation of the future and he foretold, that “he who overcomes, and keeps my works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations – He shall rule them with a rod of iron … as I also have received from my Father”. “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne” (Rev 1:1; 2:26-27; 3:21).
The twenty-four elders sang a new song to the Christ, about the Cross and the Kingdom: “You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood. Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth” (Rev 5:9-10). Blessed and holy is the redeemed they shall reign with the Christ a thousand years (Rev 20:6).
To know God, Jesus the King and the Gospel of the Kingdom is of utmost importance. Jesus prayed to God, his Father, “this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3).
Jesus emphasized that “when anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes … and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.” He continues to warn that some would “believe for a while and in time of temptation [due to tribulation or persecution] fall away”, and others will be unfruitful because the message is “choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life”. The one who hears and understands the message and in the end is saved, is the one who “with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience” (Matt 13:19; Luke 8:12-15).
Jesus admonished his hearers to “enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matt 7:13-14). Have you entered in through the narrow gate my friend? Are you walking the narrow road?
Paul, as one taught by Jesus, said “do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 6:9-10).
If you realize that you are on the broad way leading to destruction, then make a u-turn in your life to serve God and enter through that narrow gate and walk the narrow way. Jesus said “unless you repent you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:5).
Commit your life to God, His message about the Kingdom and Jesus the King and show it by being baptized, just as the people did, when they believed Philip preaching ”the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 8:12). Then start the race towards inheriting the Kingdom of God and “run in such a way that you may obtain it” (1 Cor 9:24). Learn God's way, be “filled with the Spirit”, by letting “the word of Christ dwell in you richly” (Eph 5:18; Col 3:16).
It will not be easy, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22). But it is worth it, because God “will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath” (Rom 2:6-8).
By Martin Willemoes Hansen – July the 20th 2010
Based on a work by James Mattison
Bible quotes are taken from the NKJV
I cannot understand why God who is Love wants the people to believe in his Son and be baptized to gain eternal life.
There are so many people out there who don’t know the bible or who have been raised in the believing that all “holy” books are mere work of men and so they are not in the position of trusting in what the bible tells, or they believe in other “holy” books and do good deeds, are lovely und humble persons who live a moral life.
Why would a lovely Creator destroy them?
I know the gospel and I love Jesus for what He’s done for me, but I don’t want to consider myself a better person or a more valueable person than many others, just because I had the luck of raising up with the bible.
I don’t know what I’d believe today if I had been raised in an other family, without a bible.
I also cannot understand why God should destroy all criminals or the couples who live together and want to wait for a marriage, every “evil” deed is not simply a 100% voluntary decision. Sometimes yes, but I think for the most times there are several reasons behind that lead to a certain way of life. Mostly it’s the childhood and the ambience where they are raised up, or the poverty. God knows all these reasons that lay behind evil deeds, but the bible still uses a language thats leads one to think God acts like a man. Somebody who writes down all the evil things you’ve done in a book and then condemns you to eternal destruction.
And let’s say my partner doesn’t believe in God, should I look to it as somebody who will be destroyed? How can God condemn his creature because it’s been influenced by its parents or its friends by thinking in a certain way, in a way that he doesn’t like or lets say in a way that is wrong.
I cannot understand why in 1 Pet 1:19-20 it is said that the coming of Christ was planned even before Adam and Eve sinned.
Why is God playing with us? Why are we born in this sick, trist etc. world, why must I pay for something I haven’t done? Why is it?
For all my life, I teached the people that God is not responsible for the evil, for the death and so on, but today, how can I defend God? I mean, not by faith or trust, but by reason, by logic and common sense.
If an agnostic person asks me “ok ok, I do understand the gospel, but, however, why is God, who enforces to live his creation in such a f***ed up way for over 6000 years, called Love?”
Years ago I had responded like this: “God has a plan, and because of the fact that Adam and Eve asked Gods Authority He is giving us the possibilty to understand that mankind cannot live without His guide.”
But now, I think this is simply egoistic. This ain’t love. And why was God before Christ such a violent god?
Really, I want to love God but I cannot understand his way of acting. It makes me only cry when I think about it. This life sucks and everything is shitty. Why don’t we suicide all toghether? I mean, ALL THE WORLD, as a sign of protest against God?
Everyday is a struggle, we work hard for survive…till we get sick and die, it has no sense, NONE.
My preferred book of the bible today is Qohèlet, maybe it’s the only book in it with which I can agree totally.
Hi Martin
Great to find your article here, thank you, it’s message is so uplifting. Even though I have read it many times, I never fail to see the simplicity of the Gospel teaching. Jesus’s disciples and followers (mainly) did not come from classes of high-born ,or very educated people. They didn’t need to; His message was simple. There were no complicated teachings about the trinity. The Jews expected their final reward to be resurrection, so they weren’t too worried about going to Hell, Heaven or Purgatory; they knew they would live again on the earth.
What a pity this generation can’t be like them, instead of twisting His teachings into things it was never meant to be.
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
Fiona
David
You said, “I can not understand why God who is Love wants the people to believe in his son and be baptized to gain eternal life.”
I am not an expert but I’d be more than happy to tell you what I think if you are interested. I believe God wants us to believe in his son so that we will heed the teachings, parables and laws that he sets forth for us so that we can through our words and deeds ultimately please God. By knowing the ground rules, so to speak, of what God expects from us, it makes it more likely that we will not offend God with our behavior.
As for baptism that is more difficult. My best friend Tim says that baptism is an absolute requirement and without it one cannot attain salvation (I do not agree with him). I agree with what Mark C. once told me and that is that baptism is just a symbol to demonstrate that we have repented and had our sins washed away. I do not believe that baptism is an absolute requirement to attain salvation.
You also said, “There are so many people out there that don’t know the bible or have been raised in the believing that all ‘holy books’ are mere works of men so they are not in a position of trusting in what the bible tells, or they believe in other ‘holy books’ and do good deeds, are humble and lovely persons who live a moral life.”
I do not believe in orthodoxy where we are all judged by our doctrines. I believe in orthopraxy where we are all judged by our actions. Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Nelson Mandella and many others don’t share my exact beliefs, but I think it is clear that by their behavior during their lives on earth, that it is very likely that God is well pleased with them. Perhaps my beliefs are more accurate than theirs, perhaps not, but either way I pray that my actions (each and every day) will be pleasing to God.
You also said, “I know the gospel and I love Jesus for what He’s done for me, but I don’t want to consider myself a better person or a more valuable person than many others, just because I had the luck of raising up with the bible.”
One of Yeshua’s/Jesus’ main teachings is that we should not consider ourselves to be better than others. In Mathew 23:10-12 Yeshua/Jesus said, “Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” Yeshua/Jesus also said the meek shall inherit the earth and whoever humbles himself like a child will be called greatest in the kingdom of God.
You also said, “I cannot understand why in 1 Peter 1:19-20 it is said that the coming of Christ was planned even before Adam and Eve sinned. Why is God playing with us? Why are we born in this sick, trist etc.. world? Why must I pay for something I haven’t done? Why is it?”
We can only speculate. I believe that from before the world was created God wanted to create a very special creation that would reflect his nature and goodness fully and completely. The whole reason he went through the trouble of creating this world and everything in it was so that he could achieve this. This person (Messiah) would be his sole representative to his other children. He would not just be their loving King but also their big brother as well.
He started with Adam and Eve in the garden. They were just babies completely innocent. They were even completely ignorant of their own nakedness. It seems he had always planned that this Messiah or King would come from their seed. But Satan threw a wrench into the plan. Remember the parable of the tares. God was left with a choice, uproot the tares and possibly destroy some of his beloved children in the process, or let them grow and develop to full maturity together and then uproot the unrighteous from among the righteous.
You also said, “Every day is a struggle, we work hard to survive… till we get sick and die, it has no sense, NONE.”
The problem is that Satan wants us to become obsessed with what is bad so that we forget about the good that is around us. For instance the news/media thrives on relating stories of disasters and other bad things that happen. Why? Because it gets lots of viewers and sells advertising.
Up hear in Canada we have a TV station called CTS (Christian Television Station) and it has excellent positive programming. One of my favorite shows is called “Good News” and is about good things that are happening around the world. Mostly as a result of faith based organizations. It just doesn’t cover Christian organizations but all organizations that try their best to do good and spread God’s love and mercy.
This program and this station has to be sponsored by the viewers because big corporations don’t want to advertise on them. Unfortunately in this world we live in this station and this program doesn’t get a huge share of the viewers. If you look at the world where billions of people struggle through their lives everyday with no apparent purpose but to survive to the next day it is difficult to make any sense out of why it is we should even bother to live.
But God doesn’t want us to look to the world or worry about all these disasters etc… In Mathew 24:6-8 Jesus says, “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.”
Birth pains means that shortly afterward there will be a birth or a new beginning. I believe this will be the beginning of the newly restored/created earth and the earthy kingdom that will follow. Of course I am not an expert on these things just just a humble layman….
Tom,
I agree with what you write up here. As I always say, judgment involves both condemnation and approval. We can do neither with regards to the eligibility for everlasting life.
Just for the record: Nelson Mandela has not always been a humble “peace lover.” Fortunately it is Jesus who will be the Judge. His second wife (Winnie Mandela) was a terrorist. Mandela used to be a terrorist himself. He bombed quite a few innocent white and black people in South Africa.
As I said, Jesus will be the Judge. He will not judge by what his eyes see or decide by what his ears have heard (Isaiah 11:3-5). Contrary to a very popular lie the world’s mass media spread (and only South Africans know that it’s not true), Mandela has not been a “peace maker par excellence” as former president and traitor, FW de Klerk would want everybody to believe.
Cheers!
Jaco
Jaco
Thank you for correcting me and informing me of my mistaken belief. I guess I’ve been misguided by the world media just like everybody else. I had thought that Nelson Mandela was another Martin Luther King…
@Thomas
I’ve appreciated your response.
Let me explain one thing, I said:
“I know the gospel and I love Jesus for what He’s done for me, but I don’t want to consider myself a better person or a more valuable person than many others, just because I had the luck of raising up with the bible.”
What I meant is that, the New Testament emphasizes the fact that the faith is fundamental, not the deeds.
It’s because of this that Martin Luther formulated the credo:
“Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia”
That means:
Only the bible is our authority, only our faith saves us, through God’s grace.
And so, that view of things excludes “good” persons that do not believe in God or Jesus, from salvation.
What I found interesting is what Michel Servetus said, he said that everyone can know God through Jesus and so every church is useless for salvation; and EVERYONE can gain salvation through the grace of God.
I like this humanistic approach to the scriptures, and I think 1. Corinthians 15:21-22 supports this view.
The reason why I’m talking about this issue is that, most christian churches do not teach this. They’ve got a sectarian view of the things and of the world, even of God.
David
I can’t agree with Marin Luther or his credo. He is one of those so called religious experts that people like to idolize. The fact is he wanted to remove 4 books/letters from the bible but the princes of Germany (who he had basically given all the powers that the pope used to have) wouldn’t allow him to do it.
I don’t remember the exact books and letters but I do know the one letter he wanted removed was the letter of James. Martin Luther (like many others) idolized Paul and his writings. He was convinced that James’ statement that “Faith without works was dead” clearly contradicted what Paul taught. As a result he was convinced that the letter of James could not be authentic.
Just like Martin Luther I have doubts about certain books and letters being allowed into the New Testament cannon. I have doubts about the writings of Paul and John. Whenever I see anything in Paul’s or John’s writings that seems to contradict other scriptures I dismiss Paul’s or John’s versions of events.
I do not see any reason to believe that there is anything that excludes good people that do not believe in God or Jesus, from salvation. Jesus said in Mathew 8:11 “I tell you many people come from east and west and will recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
To me that means people that do not know Jesus or God. But I must admit that I am abnormal and that most Christians do not share my views on this matter. I can only speak for myself and what I believe. Maybe others here will explain these things differently to you.
You said, “What I found interesting is what Michael Servetus said, he said that everyone can know God through Jesus and so every church is useless for salvation; and EVERYONE can attain salvation through the grace of God.”
I also like this humanistic approach to scriptures. I have a lot more respect for the teachings of Michael Servetus that I do for Martin Luther. But I would not agree that every church is useless for salvation. I believe many people eventually attain salvation through their connections to churches that have introduced them to God and his son Yeshua/Jesus.
I do believe EVERYONE can attain salvation through the grace of God though…
^^^ Man, I might need to get a new Name, because I guess I’m not the only david on here!
David
Sorry. I didn’t realize I was talking to more than one person. I guess that’s the problem with having a common name. When I was young Tom was a rather common name. There was an expression that used to say “Every Tom, Dick and Harry.” Implying that these were some of the most common names. Today I hardly ever meet anyone named Dick or Harry and even the name Tom is not very common anymore. There were over 200 people graduating with my son several years ago and according to the brochure they handed out not one of them was named Tom or Thomas or Tommy…
@David
No problem, indeed my name is Dàvide, in the modern Italian form, so just keep yours! ;-D
@Thomas
I’ve also read on an Christian website that Martin Luther considered the Jews enemies.
Well, surely a church can be indirectly responsible for salvation when they teach somebody the Gospel, but then, the people will be saved because of the Gospel, not because of the church.
But yeah, I think we agree at most and it’s very nice to hear that.
I wish You all a nice weekend, at least here in Germany it is Saturday evening…;-D
P.S. Thomas, do you use Windows Live Messenger or something similar?
DT
Just a thought about what you said about-
.” But I would not agree that every church is useless for salvation. I believe many people eventually attain salvation through their connections to churches that have introduced them to God and his son Yeshua/Jesus.”( I also haven’t figured out the copy thingy!)
I have a theory that a lot of people are either too lazy, to apathetic, or just plain worn down by all the stresses in their lives, to actually take the trouble to go into what they want to believe. So, they go to church for that reason. Maybe they figure” This guy went to the Theological seminary for X number of years, so what he says must be right”. Lets face it, if a person is serious about faith, you can spend a lot of time and effort researching beliefs- look at us here on KR! What a huge responsibility is given to a Pastor- one which is sometimes not taken responsibly (Sorry Sean, not talking about you!) I think sometimes believers are coming to faith not because of their church, but DESPITE it! I would love to know what others think?
Fiona
You said, “I have a theory that a lot of people are either too lazy, to apathetic, or just plain worn down by all the stresses in their lives, to actually take the trouble to go into what they want to believe. So they go to church for that reason….I think sometimes believers are coming to faith not because of their church, but DESPITE it!”
You might be right. But I do believe that some people do come to know God and his son Yeshua/Jesus through church outreaches etc… I can only tell you about my personal journey. Shortly after becoming a Christian I started to go to church with my wife (she was Roman Catholic). Even though I attended her church for almost 7 years I never officially converted because there were just too many things that they taught that didn’t make sense to me. As a result I was never allowed to participate in the weekly communion (bread and wine).
After my wife died I went to about a half dozen different churches but didn’t stay that long with any one church. Eventually I found a church that I liked. It was an offshoot of the Mennonite Bretheren church. I loved the worship and the people I met there. I had heard stories about the pastor being very autocratic but I never personally experienced it and thought that I would probably never find a perfect church anywaze.
Then one Sunday I took my elderly mother to church with me. She hadn’t been to church in many years (I thought she would enjoy it). For some reason the pastor decided that on that day instead of having our regular service that we were all going to go out and knock on doors in the neighborhood and spread the good news of the gospel.
So my elderly mother and I went door to door with a few other people from the congregation. I could see my mother was extremely uncomfortable and I myself didn’t feel comfortable going around knocking on people’s doors. The more I thought about it the more I didn’t like it. The pastor should have at least given us a option of whether we wanted to participate in this activity or not.
Shortly after I stopped going to this church. It was around this time that my best friend Tim gave me a NIV study bible. I am the furthest thing from a scholar you could imagine. I didn’t even finish High School. I had always thought that the bible would be much too difficult for me to understand, but I decided I would try my best to study it and see if I could understand what God and his son Jesus were saying in the scriptures.
At first it was very frustrating. I only read the Old Testament twice and I sort of gave up on it because I found it so difficult too understand. I then just concentrated on the New Testament. I kept coming across all these red flags (apparent contradictions) and I was about to give up on trying to make any sense out of it. I was beginning to think that the bible was simply beyond my ability to comprehend.
I didn’t want to believe this so I prayed earnestly to God (as a last resort of course) to give me some guidance. I decided to stop studying the bible for a while and to read some Christian history books from the public library. I also bought several other books about Christianity (some of which I never did finish reading).
One day I was reading about the horse trading that went on between the Eastern and Western (RC) churches at the end of the 4th. century when they were first putting together a collection of books and letters that is almost identical to the one we have today in our modern bible. The one church would say, we will agree to include this book or letter if you agree not to include this other book or letter etc…
I also realize that even though all the religious experts say there was no difference between the Christians who followed Paul and the other Christians. The historians all talked about the Pauline Christians and how they were the first ones to call themselves Christians. The other Christians apparently considered themselves to be just another Jewish sect. Just like Peter and the Apostles they considered themselves to be Jews.
That’s when I had my first doubts about the writings of Paul. To make a long story short over time I found if I eliminated the writings of Paul and John I was left with a very clear Unitarian/Socinian view of God and his son Jesus without any apparent red flags or contradictions. Which is exactly what it was I was earnestly praying for.
Finally I was able to completely understand the message of God and his son Yeshua/Jesus. Anywaze that is the story of how I came to be a Unitarian/Socinian. Maybe you are right that the churches that I attended didn’t help me that much, but I still think that I wouldn’t go so far as to say that churches are useless in helping people to attain salvation…
@Thomas
It’s interesting that you mention Socini, I have read something about them and I found it amazing what they taught. It’d be wonderful if there would be still Socinian Churches today, but…it seems like not, I’ve searched on the internet already.
You know, I’ve been raised as a Jehovah’s Witness and the JWs call their organization the Arch of our days. So they teach ridiculous things like “if you wanna be saved, you gotta join us”.
So, that’s what Servetus wanted to actually inform of. Not that churches cannot conduct people to be saved, but that every church is useless for the purpose of saving lives, because they per sé cannot save anybody, it’s only the Christ. A Church can be the medium just like a Christian book can be a medium for gaining faith and be saved.
I tranlated his phrase rapidly from the Italian, I don’t wanted to let Servetus say something he didn’t write.
@Fiona
Well, I think it’s true for the most people. Somebody not even pictures the possibility that the bible may teaches things that differ from what a pastor tells him. Others are scared, like the JWs, they are told that if they question something teached by “God’s Organization” (their Governing Body) they are questioning God.
But we must all admit that NOBODY has ever understood every doctrine of the bible, so we should never be dogmatic, except for things that are really cleary explained, and these are only very few.
Let me tell you about my father, he was raised as Roman Catholic but knew nothing about the bible, one day a JW knocked on his door and told sooo many things that apparently the bible teaches. Today he is still a JW and cannot immagine that something is wrong, he cannot picture that because he knew nothing about the bible, EVERYONE could have told him things and he would believe them, whether it was a mormon, a JW or some other minor cult.
And when these people believe that they are the only ones “in the Truth”, they exalt the doctrines over all.
I think a good Christian should exalt the good deeds, the LOVE, and not the doctrines.
Just like Jesus teached of what Christianism is.
Think about it, if the doctrines were fundamental, how many Christians were to be saved? The majority (!) believes since so many years in a Trinity, and that’s just an example we all know good here.
Why can’t all Christian churches give their hands and concentrate on what Jesus teached, on Love, on good deeds, on helping each others and the world, instead of litigate and seperate because of doctrines, it’s ridiculous!
Thank you, DT,
for sharing about your spiritual journey!
I would love to know the testimony of every person who writes in this blog regularly. It would help in building relationships and to understand the comments more clearly.
Certainly, it could be a voluntary thing.
What do others think about a centralized place where these stories could be collected?
David (msg 1 and 7)
From the way you wrote, I could imagine you were going through a really hard time or sad experience. If that is the case, I don’t want to be callous, yet it does not help anyone to leave your questions unanswered. So I will pick up some, that DT did not answer.
You asked about people not believing in God, yet they
God will not destroy people who (just) do good deeds and so on. The problem is there is no one – besides Jesus – who fits that description.
Romans 3, 10-12
God will deal with his humans justly.
Romans 2, 6-7
Romans 2, 12
And that is the answer,
He is just, yet he wants – out of love – to save us from the just consequences of our life. The only one way to achieve that is through Christ and his sacrifice.
- – -
In terms of a person not being responsible because his parents, surroundings and so on made them do the bad things: That is just not true! It is the spirit of the age that argues like that – which is – I am sorry – true for most of the points you are making.
I don’t mean harm by being so direct. But if you, who were brought up with the Bible, think like that, and people who come out of an atheistic or criminal background become believers who trust God’s word, you are proving your own claims to be wrong.
- – -
God is not playing with us – he is trying to help us (see above).
“We are born in this sick … world” because men cause it to be this way!
The world is not a huge number of automous individuals. It is made up of creatures that interfere with and influence one another. Therefore, generally speaking if one does wrong others will suffer. The same way we profit from the good things other people do. Do we ever complain about that?
- – -
God has never changed and will never change! That is only logical, since he is perfect. If he would change, he would stop being perfect. God was love even before Jesus was born. His love is the reason, why he sent his son.
What you called “violent” in my eyes has to do with God’s role and responsibility – and love. He not only planned and created mankind, all living souls, the earth and the universe, he also upholds and rules everything.
Even a nation can’t exist with anarchy, much less the world could. You see and bemoan the terrible consequences that are there, although God interfered at certain points. It would be even worse if he had not done that.
- – -
I need to add one aspect to the question of good people: A crucial part of being good is to be truthful and honour the one who made and sustains us. And everyone can know that there is a creator by simply looking at creation.
Romans 1, 19-21
- – -
Cor 15, 21-22
That is not talking about all being saved. All will be resurrected – yes! – but some for eternal life, others for judgement.
John 5, 29
- – -
David, I did not write this lightly. And I do pray for you that you will see the humanistic, worldly view for what it is, and trust our God and his Word instead.
Davide
I apoligize for taking so long to respond to your 2 messages above. I check the comments section regularly and for some reason I didn’t notice your messages until just now when I was rereading this thread.
In msg. #11 you said, “I’ve also read on a Christian website that Martin Luther considered the Jews enemies.”
That does not surprise me in the least. That was the official position of the RC church since even before Constantine made it the official state religion. From my point of view Martin Luther was a loyal RC monk who wanted to keep all the doctrines and ceremonies of the RC church right down to the bishops, priests, and the holy communion, etc…
From my point of view it seems that he just despised the current Pope of his day and wanted to get rid of the Pope and basically keep most everything else the way it was. All the historians label him as the “Great Reformer” which I think is completely misleading. I believe Lelio Sozzini was really the great reformer because he was willing to re-examine all of the doctrines, ceremonies, etc… of the RC church.
BTW – From what I understand most people on this site are Socinians.
You also said, “Well surely a church can be indirectly responsible for someones salvation when they teach someone the Gospel, but then, the people will be saved because of the Gospel, not because of the church.”
I agree. That is what it was I was trying to say in my messages above.
You also said, “P.S. – Thomas, do you use Windows Live Messenger or something similar?”
No. I just use Hot mail. My son Jordan is always telling me I’m old fashioned because I just send e-mails. I am rather new to this computer thing and am rather ignorant when it comes to technology…
In msg. #14 you also said, “So, that’s what Servetus wanted to actually inform of. Not that churches can’t conduct people to be saved, but that every church is useless for the purpose of saving lives, because they per se can’t save anybody, it’s only the Christ.”
Now that makes a lot more sense. I can completely agree with that…
Davide
I just noticed in msg. #14 above you said to Fiona, “And when these people believe that they are the only ones “in the Truth”, they exalt the doctrines over all.”
Sounds like the JW’s behave the same way that the RC church does. According to them if you don’t believe the correct doctrines and participate in certain sacraments, then you cannot attain salvation. Because I had refused to accept and believe all of the doctrines that they were teaching, I was not allowed to participate in the holy sacrament of communion.
It made no difference to them that my wife and children were Catholic, and that I regularly attended church every Sunday for nearly 7 years. Basically in their eyes, because they believed we are saved by our doctrines, and I didn’t agree with their doctrines, I had no hope for salvation.
You also said, “I think a good Christian should exalt the good deeds, the Love, and not the doctrines…..Why can’t all Christian churches give their hands and concentrate on what Jesus taught, on love, on good deeds, on helping each other and the world, instead of litigate and separate because of doctrines, it’s ridiculous!”
I completely agree with you. I think most mainstream average people who attend these churches would also agree with you. I find it is mainly the people that dedicate their lives to becoming so called experts, through attaining degrees and such, that in the end become obsessed with the doctrines. The average person is more interested in the good deeds, the kind words, the peace, the harmony and the love, that Christianity teaches, than they are in the doctrines.
I believe Yeshua/Jesus teaches that the most important thing is the fruits…
Thank you Silke for citing Romans, I’ve just read the first chapters, I also found very interesting Romans 3:20.
Why did I say “God is playing with us”?
Because in the JWs I learned all my life that we are imperfect and we needed the Christ for returnig to perfection BECAUSE OF the sin.
But later I read in 1 Pet 1:19-20 that the Christ was part of the original divine plan. And so: that God planned the man to become imperfect and to stay imperfect and to suffer for some thousands of years.
(So it did NOT depend on Eve or Adam, it simply HAD TO happen.)
And from this point of view, everything changes, I mean, why do we say that God is soooo lovely sending to us his Son dieing for us, we do not deserve it, because we are sinners and so on. HELLO? Did I choose to be a sinner or were I born as a sinner?
Let me give you an example: Let’s say I’m a father of a child and I break this child’s leg. Then I bring my child to a unique doctor who is able to let him regain his lost leg and tell my child that I am a lovely father because I have given him the possibilty of regaining his leg.
we can add: 20 years later, my child is grown and asks me “why did you break my leg?” I respond: “I did it for your own good, so that you are able to understand that you need my guide.” Wow!
I hope someday I will understand this, I hope that with my 19 years I’m just too nearsighted to grasp it.
Well, Silke, you can’t deny that in the pre-christian times God interefered in a very different way. In Exodus 21:20-21 God comands to treat the slaves inhumanly.
Jehovah comanded lots of times to his people to make war against their “enemies”, to kill those, who did not live by the principles that God gave only to a selected group.
When Jesus later came he said “love your enemies and pray for them”…
When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha, did he destroy the wicked ones or did he destroy ALL? I mean, kids, babies, animals and surely lots of other innocents?
Silke, what you wrote about Cor 15, 21-22 and John 5,29 is very interesting. Can you explain me how you think about a person who is resurrected but not saved? What happens to this person? Does he get a second chance or is he resurrected for then being re-murdered? I know the scriptures aren’t very detail-rich, but I’d like to know your opinion, and also other opinions, Thomas, what do you think about this?
Right, Thomas, THE FRUITS are the important thing. It reminded me also of the words of Jesus when he said to his disciples “who’s not against us is with/for us”.
Davide
You said, “Can you explain to me how you think a person who is resurrected but not saved? What happens to this person? Does he get a second chance or is he resurrected and then being re-murdered?”
Of course we can only speculate on these things.
I believe that certain people either from ancient or modern times that didn’t hear the gospel and didn’t know Jesus or God, but who’s behavior was not that bad, will probably be given a second chance to redeem themselves. Other people because of their evil and self-centered, greedy, sinful behavior will probably be judged immediately. I don’t believe that Yeshua/Jesus will be handing out doctrinal tests to people to test their knowledge or anything like that.
I believe that there will be many other people that although they didn’t know Jesus or God, but because they had God’s law written in their hearts, and as a result, their behavior was pleasing to God, who would probably immediately achieve salvation. Like Jesus said many people from the east and the west will recline at the table with Isaac and Jacob before the children of Israel will.
Of course, I am just a layman and these are just my own personal opinions…
You also said, “Well, Silke, you can’t deny that in the pre-christian times God interfered in a very different way.”
It is difficult to imagine life at the time of Abraham and Moses. Men were little more then animals in their behavior. A man could kill you for the slightest reason. If he thought you insulted him or insulted his wife, out of family honor, he would kill you. There was no sheriff to call no policeman to summons. The only hope you might have is that maybe someone in your family would avenge your death. It was a savage world.
Take the story of Abraham. It was common in those times that if a man had a beautiful wife, that another richer and more powerful man might kill him, and then take the beautiful wife for his own. Of course all rich and powerful men, as a status symbol, would have had many young beautiful wives. God had to deal with this savage animal like behavior and get it under control somehow. Hence the strict Mosaic Law with it’s emphasis on severe punishments.
This only makes sense if you think about it. Imagine if you had a beautiful wild stallion and you wanted to tame it. You would have to be extremely strict with it at first, until the training was done, and you had eliminated all the horse’s bad behaviors. Once the horse’s behaviors had improved, then you could be kind and gentle with the horse, and begin showing it love. Hence the arrival of Yeshua/Jesus on the scene.
At least that’s the way I see it anywaze…
Hi Davide,
Like Doubting Thomas, I noticed your very poignant question:
As it turns out, I have also “wrestled” with that very issue, for a very long time. As a result, I tried to find out all that I could about that issue. After that, I created a PowerPoint presentation, which describes my beliefs about that topic. (Of course, I could still be wrong – I’m just an imperfect human, after all…)
If you’re interested, the PowerPoint presentation in question is accessible on my web site, at the following URL:
http://ncbf.homestead.com/The_Resurrection_of_Ignorant_People.ppt
I hope this is helpful to you!
Brian
Brian
I think the answer to nobody receiving salvation unless its through Jesus is clearly spelled out in Rev 20,21 within the Lambs book of life considering it says no one will be in the New heaven and earth unless Jesus has written their name in HIS book of life. this means the elect must of been in the book for them to particapate in the 1000 year.
I see the Lamb’s book as going through the name of Jesus
Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 21
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
For the most of your points I can agree Thomas, thank you for sharing.
Oh, Brian, I’ve just read your presentation. You’ve done a good work!
But Brian, you talk about “ignorant people” or “infants” when you refer to the class that the bible calls “the unrighteous”.
So you exclude the people who did hear the gospel and rejected it?
I can’t agree with this point. As I said before, every decision a man takes is rarely a 100% free decision. You have to consider the social pressure, the childhood, the ambience, the sociocultural burden that every man carries, the mental diseases. I think that EVERYONE, even individuals like Hitler, will be resurrected to judgement.
And with “resurrection to judgement” I agree with you, I strongly believe that it’s a second chance, a resurrection to mortal life for a finite period of time and then, eventually, to immortal life or to eternal death.
For those who can’t agree, think about Jesus” words on the cross:
“Forgive them for they know not what they do”.
May God bless You!
Hi Davide,
Thanks for the kind words! In that presentation, I only focused on people who had never heard of Jesus – i.e., people who are “ignorant” of him. I certainly believe that those people will have a chance to hear about Jesus – and to follow him – after their resurrections.
The question of what will happen to people who did hear about Jesus – and who rejected him – is a more difficult question for me. However, my basic understanding of that question is that God is only “calling” a subset of people to salvation during this age. In addition, the only people who are able to follow Jesus during this age are people who are called. For example, consider these verses:
The above verses seem to be saying that only people who are explicitly “called” can follow Jesus – and that God is not calling everyone now. However, I believe that God will call everyone, during the Kingdom.
I suspect that most of the people who explicitly rejected Jesus were not “called” during this age – and therefore, those people could not follow Jesus. However, those people will presumably have a chance to follow Jesus during the Kingdom – when God calls everyone.
Needless to say, the above belief is rather “controversial”…
As it turns out, I have another document on my web site that goes into detail about this subject. If you’re interested, here is a link to that doc:
http://ncbf.homestead.com/God_s_Call_to_Salvation.doc
Brian
Hi Brian,
for the ones that were not following Jesus before their death to have a chance to turn to him during the Millenium, they would need to be included in the first resurrection. That seems to contradict verses like these:
Rev. 20, 4-6 (emphasis mine)
Does your presentation give answers to the following questions. (If so, please let me know, so I can read it first.)
How – in the light of Rev. 19 – can the non-believers be included in the first resurrection?
Or, if they are not included, how could they turn to Jesus?
If, they are included, how could they decide freely (since verse 6 says, that they would not die again, i.e. they could not be judged after rejecting salvation)?
Hi Davide,
thank you for responding to my comment. I have to leave right now, so I can’t answer you write away. But I will hopefully do so later on today.
Hi Silke,
I believe that people who are “ignorant” about Jesus will be resurrected during the second resurrection – the resurrection of judgment. Most mainstream denominations state that everyone who is resurrected during the resurrection of judgment will be destroyed – but I do not hold that view.
In my view, the term “judgment”, in this case, refers to a period of time – and the actions of those people will be judged, during that period of time. Assuming that that is true, those people will have the chance to be saved, during that time period. (I go into this subject in detail, in the presentation that I listed above.)
Brian
“for the ones that were not following Jesus before their death to have a chance to turn to him during the Millenium, they would need to be included in the first resurrection. That seems to contradict verses like these:”
Silke
Yes that is a major flaw in reading.
But most people do not see that many nations will continue their average mortal life((120 year life) living upon the earth while those who are resurrected into the kingdom of new Israel reign over all the earth during the sabbath rest of God in which Jesus will move from the right hand of God to God’s throne in Heaven not on the earth. After the sabbath rest Jesus will give back the throne to God and then Call all people to judgement and judge them all according to their Works. these ones that are resurrected(with the ability to live the whole 1000 years) to the Sabbath rest are still subject to die, but the second death wont have power over them because they were already counted for salvation(wriitten in the Lamb’s book of life along with the reward of participating in GOD’S Rest which requirements Abraham met(Genesis 26:5 ) and the same promises was made to all his children that did the same, all God did was add some requirements(Mosaic law) to the promise to Abraham. These added requirements came 430 years after the Unconditional promises were made to Abraham and can not effect those before the giving of Mosaic law.
Only the ones who have taken hold of the Old covenant since it was giving and those before who followed the same commandments,laws and statutes as Abraham will be resurrected into the 1000 year sabbath rest of God as priest and kings over the rest of the remaining nations that are outside of New Israel
Hi Dàvide,
no wonder you are upset with God, if you believe, he made people to sin. But that is not at all the case!
To pick up your example, the story would rightfully go like that:
The father knew his child had a lot of energy and could be quite incautious. So, when they went for holiday, after arriving the father check where a doctor would be and how and when they could reach him – in case of an emergency. After that the father asked the child to be careful enough not to hurt himself and hoped he would listen to him. Still, the accident happend: the child broke its leg. The father ran, to pick up his child and rush it to the doctor he had searched out before. In the process of picking the child up, carrying it to the car and driving to the doctor the fathers actions did increase the childs pain. The child might not even understand why Dad causes him to hurt more …
Dàvide, this story is limited of course, since men do not know things for sure in advance. Normally, they can only make predictions. Not so with God: he knows everything. Therefore he was able to make a plan for our salvation before sin had happend.
God knew, people would sin and, because out of love he did not want to give them up, he developed a plan to save them – even before sin happend.
You are mixing up two things:
1) to know something will happen – and to make a plan for that case
2) to cause something to happen
God did the first – he did not cause Adam and Eve or any innocent person to sin!
- – -
Please, read the text again, than you will see, that is not true. God does not tell anyone to treat his slaves harshly or cruely. On contrary, he gives these rules to protect the slaves from at least the worst. God, knowing that we are evil from youth on, lets many things go unpunished that he had never meant to happen in the first place. He is not endorsing all that he is in not punishing!
Please, remember what God said after the flood:
Gen. 8, 21
To me, that is part of why we might suffer in this world – but also why we may continue to live although we cause others to suffer.
The “change” that came with Jesus’ teaching is that he pointed out what God had wanted all the time with the laws he had given. The Sermon of the Mount shows drastically how much more there is to God’s will than “simply” to follow the letter of the law.
- – -
No, God did judge them for thing they should have known in their hearts – or conscience, you might call it – to be utterly wrong. God makes it clear (see Rom. 2, 14-15) that everyone has some understanding of right and wrong in-built.
For one thing, they made their children go through fire, sacrificing them to idols. Do you blame God for trying to making an end to things like that, after having given them enough time to turn form their horrible ways?
- – -
I trust God that he will be a just and loving Creator to all those babies and animals, that suffered since Adam and Eve started the corruption of God’s perfect creation. Yet, from Scripture it is clear, there were not “lots of other innocents”. God had promised to spare all, if he would find atleast 10 just persons! (see Gen. 18, 32) He did not find the 10!
- – -
Sorry, for now I can not give you an answer based on Scripture. I am just not sure. But I will hopefully ready Brian’s presentation soon, and if I think I have gained more understanding of this topic, I am ready to share it.
Hallo, Davide
What a pleasant surprise to find another former JW on this blog. Our desire for the truth cannot be quenched can it?
I’d like to hear your story, friend. Under the article, “Groups with Unitarian Beliefs,” I mention some of my experiences there. Would like to get our imput. It is a pity, however, that many JWs change from one man-directed sect to another. Some become Bible Students, others Mormons or Christadelphians. They seem to leave one prophetic snare, just to step into another. Did you know, for instance, that Dr. Thomas (Christadelphian founder) predicted Armageddon to come in 1910? He reached that date in EXACTLY the same way Charles Taze Russell did, he only used 610 BCE as the starting point, and apparently failed to remove year 0.
Tom,
You said,
You’re spot-on, friend! In one of Raymond Franz’s books, In Search of Christian Freedom, Chapter 4, “A Recurring Pattern,” he says the following, quoting historians and comparing it to the modern-day Watchtower set-up:
Compare the above to what the Watchtower teach: After quoting Prov. 6:20-23 (“forsake not the law of thy mother”), it says,
What is so shocking, is that the Watchtower organisation with their extremely damaging policies, doctrines and prophecies, have achieved in decades what took the Catholic Church centuries to achieve. What kind of mother is this organisation? Well, it’s a mother needing to be idolised and worshiped as God Himself. One fornicating with a “beast” (United Nations, OSCE), easily stomaching the sight of her “children” dying from refusing blood transfusions (and formerly, also vaccines and organ transplants). A mother drunk in her prophetic utterances, who had her “children” expect Armageddon in 1874, 1914, then 1975, and who promised the resurrection of “ancient worthies” in 1925. A mother so indecisive, that her prophecies and doctrines change time and time again. But also a mother so bloody presumptuous, that HER word, rather than the Word of the Father shall be obeyed, since she has no qualms with leaving her dissenting “children” wounded, broken and destitute – even for dead. Only her charm, only her lies, only her fear-inspiring soothsaying have unexpected victims fall for her enchantments.
She thinks she’s untouchable, that Jehovah does no good, nor bad. She thinks she can do and say as she pleases without impunity (eternal organisational security). She dares to think she’ll survive Armageddon with her stained clothes, bloodied hands and drunken utterances…LOL… this mother will be pelted with stones!
Declare it!
Jaco
P.S. Davide, my e-mail is talkingdonkey1981@gmail.com.
Jaco
Thanks for the background info on the JW’s. I know very little about them and their beliefs. I was especially surprised to hear they believe that Jehovah does no good, nor bad. From my reading of the bible, I thought it was clear that, everything that is good comes from God/Jehovah…
Tom,
Maybe I must clarify myself with “Jehovah does not do good nor does he do bad.” This comes from the Minor Prophets, spec. Zephaniah, where it says:
“…I will give attention to the men who are congealing upon their gregs and who aresayng in their heart, ‘Jehovah will not do good, and he will not do bad.’” These people in their self-presumed security thinks that they will never be called to account. That’s what I meant by it.
This is one of the most striking attitudes one finds among JW elders and other high flyers. They simply feel that they are beyond reproof and accountability. As long as they follow Watchtower instruction, regardless of the ruining effects these have on others, or how Christ-less they “applied” Bible counsel, they’ll always have an arsenal of excuses to rationalise and justify their godlessness.
…the opium of religion…
Jaco
Silke
In msg. #15 above you said, “I would love to know the testimony of everyone that writes on this blog regularly. It would help me in building relationships and understanding the comments more clearly.”
I had forgot that there is a place where many of these testimonies are located until I read Jaco’s message above. If you go to “Groups with Unitarian Beliefs” you will find an excellent article written by Brian Keating dated March 21st. 2010. The comments section contains testimonies from several people that post here regularly.
If you want that would be a good place to add your own testimony…
Jaco (msg. #32)
Sorry to keep asking so many questions.
I think I understand what you are saying but I wondered if you could tell me what “congealing upon their gregs” means???
I tried using biblegateway.com to see if I could find it and I couldn’t. I must be using the wrong translation or something…
@ David Re: Post #1
It’s an interesting post and many have asked these questions. I think anyone has asked these things at one point in time or another.
The way the passages are understood, or at least the way the reader subjectively interprets it make all the difference. It’s a matter of perspective.
Although I cannot answer many of life’s deepest questions, the one thing I do know about human suffering is that we humans bring it on ourselves. Since God lives in us, then collectively we are making choices to bring consequences upon ourselves, and acting as God’s own hand.
There are rules to the game… causality being one of them. If we understand that a piece of God lives inside every created being or thing, from the smallest to the largest, we can understand that any action we take – individually or collectively effects the whole of creation. This is why the world is so twisted, we are like children with our father’s gun.
Terminal illness, crime, natural disasters… all products of causality, products in part by our own doing. (reap what you sow). What does a blood cell in one’s body say when it’s being attacked by a virus? Why me? Or if a cancer attacks, corrupts multiple cells, and many cancerous and innocent healthy cells die because of kemo or radiation therapy? The sins and disharmony of the world are what causes our world and other people to react the way they do.
Roses developed/evolved to have thorns, scorpions evolved to have venom… because of the “system” that’s in place, or the “rules” of nature as God set them… as a reaction to environment. This is creation in motion… it’s not really strange scientific theory, but what I like to think of as God’s work unfolding before our eyes, in accordance to the principal of “reap what you sow”.
Does God want this to happen to us…? No… but He lets it happen because WE let it happen. God’s an ocean, and we’re all just little drops of water within that ocean… All the suffering really sucks. But it’s a necessary process to get to where we are going. With our limited subjective view of time/space we don’t even have a clue of the big picture or an idea of things that are eternal.
As for the cross, I believe the atoning work of the cross is something that has been done, and it’s power has redeemed everyone. Perhaps the power even crosses the boundary of past/future into eternity. That is a gift, and one does not need to “claim” it. The caveat, is that we were told how to walk in that gift. With Love. Jesus taught one can tell a tree by it’s fruit; that only a good tree produces good fruit, and only bad trees produce bad fruit. He did not say “you can identify a good try by it’s bark” or by “the color of it’s leaves”… no, but what it produces…
He gave us one commandment, to love, and instructions on how to practice such love; with patience, equality, forgiveness… such things makes one innocent. With what Jesus did on the cross, we no longer have to worry about the past, or the future… we just need to worry about the “now”. No guilt, no having to work our way into right standing with God. All we have to do is just do what we are told to do: to walk in love. We are meant to do this 100% of the time. It’s tough at times, sometimes it doesn’t make any sense – especially with how people treat us, what we observe in our world and our naturally defensive attitudes.
Moving on… Although there is a mainstream belief that people must “believe” in Jesus, I do not believe this in anyway refers to the “man” Jesus, but the spirit. There is too much emphasis on “belief” in Jesus that makes the word take on the same meaning as when one is referring to the easter bunny or santa clause. This cannot be further from the case.
If one believes, they follow. The famous passage: “I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the father but by me” should be looked at in two ways: 1: The cross. The work on the Cross needed to be done, he’s the one who did it. 2. It doesn’t refer to the “outer shell”, body, image or personality of Jesus, but who he TRUELY was. His inner man/spirit. The 6 foot tall, bearded Jew named yeshua/jesus, is the outer garment of who he really was. This is the same with any and every man who God “breathed” his spirit/ruach into on this planet. I believe the man or body is just the outer garment of that which is within. What was within Jesus is God. What is within myself is God. What is within you is God. But given who we are, it must be cultivated, nurtured and allowed to grow. We have to prune away the things that aren’t God, such as judgement, hate, greed and pure selfishness.
Goodness is the fruit we are to produce. Jesus said “Not all who call me Lord will enter into the kingdom… but rather those who keep my commandments”. There are people of all walks of life, following all sorts of religious traditions who are keeping the commandments as these are written in their hearts. I firmly believe anyone of any religious tradition (or lack thereof), who is doing what Jesus taught/commanded is made righteous in God’s eyes and merits the world to come, I absolutely cannot find a single passage in scripture that says otherwise. The doctrine is pure dogma.
The future kingdom of God on earth, is one of equality, without class, without creed, without selfishness. The entire earth working together collectively… for humankind to reach this we all need to grow be just like Jesus. We will; in time.
If you look at it this way, the sins that keep one out of the kingdom can be identified now by what is behind the sin. Selfishness/Egoism. Things that hurt people, our world, and ourselves.
I hope that gives some new perspective on things. I know it doesn’t explain the hellfire scenario, but I hope it leaves you with a deeper understanding of some of the not-so-simple questions.
Shalom.
(Addition to my above post: #35) Not to flood… but..
In Judaism, it’s typically understood that God is “our” God… and any curses or blessings inflicted or bestowed upon “the people” are done to us collectively or as a community. Just about every Jewish prayer or blessing starts with “Blessed are you Lord our God, King of the universe, who commands “us” to yada yada…” or as we all know here “OUR father, who art in heaven….. Give US this day OUR daily bread… forgive US, OUR trespasses…”
When we hurt each other, we are all effected in this world, collectively… including our descendants. When we love one another and speak well and treat well we also effect the entire world. The Rabbis taught, with every deed or word we say, we have either destroyed or redeemed the world. People must do their best to be VERY MINDFUL that whoever they are talking to or dealing with, weather it is a street person, or a rich man, beautiful, ugly a good person, or a wicked one… all of them must be treated as if the face they were talking to was the very face of God Himself.
As Jesus said: “All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments: You shall love the lord your God with all of your heart all of your strength, and all of your might; and the second IS LIKE IT. Love your neighbor as yourself.”
It is “LIKE” it because it is essentially the same thing. If God is an ocean, and we are drops of water in the ocean, then how should we show God some love? By loving people. After all, our bodies are temples for God’s spirit. God lives in there.
The thing that really gets me the most… Well… one of the most destructive things about the traditional doctrine of “heaven” being some other place than on “earth” (heaven when you die) is that it teaches this world doesn’t matter, nor this life. That this world is going to be destroyed anyways, and that it’s all just some stupid test. We can do whatever we want to the planet and to each other as long as we say this little magic prayer! And then ZING we can go to heaven… Since we all believe it… guess what? We’re destroying ourselves and the kingdom which is supposed to be this earth!
People just don’t really grasp the perfect beauty of the gospel message and what Jesus was actually doing… the spiritual tradition given to us by Him has been bastardized into whatever it has become today, and that is very sad.
Sorry for my bad spelling/grammar… it’s really late and I’ve been unpacking and cleaning all day… very tired.
David
You said, “Goodness is the fruit we are to produce. Jesus said, “Not all who call me Lord will enter the kingdom…..but rather those who keep my commandments.” There are people of all walks of life, following all sorts of religious traditions who are keeping the commandments as these are written in their hearts. I firmly believe that anyone of any religious tradition (or lack there-of), who is doing what Jesus taught/commanded is made righteous in God’s eyes and merits the world to come, I absolutely cannot find any passage in scripture that says otherwise. The doctrine is pure dogma.”
It’s nice to see someone else agrees with me on this. My Christian friends will very often quote John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’..” Whenever the writings of Paul or John contradict other scriptures I dismiss what Paul or John has said.
It seems clear to me that what John has Jesus saying contradicts what Jesus says in Capernaum after meeting the Centurion with the extraordinary faith in Mathew 8:10-12 “When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those following him, ‘Truly I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’…”
I don’t know how you reconcile these verses David, but because of my doubts about the writings of Paul and John I just dismiss John’s account…
DT,
Could you throw some of the contradictory passages at me. I could take a crack at it. I’m sort of drawing a blank, but I love a good riddle.
I too get John 14:6 thrown at me quite a bit. But to them I have to quote Inigo Montoya from the Princess Bride… “You keep on saying that word, I do not think it mean’s what you think it means.” It’s always strangely interpreted as “Jesus said: Christian Religion is the way the truth and the life, no man come to the Father but by this Religion”… What about the atoning work on the Cross, which power transcends time, or the true person of Jesus, who has subdued his Yetzer haRa (Human inclination for selfishness) thus being a pure expression of divinity in human form?
It’s probably our natural tendency looking to the person of Jesus than the spirit of Jesus. The letter of the law, and not the spirit. Many people are quite polarized in their thinking, while it’s best to strive to find that space in between spaces where objectivity resides.
This is the sad thing. Christianity is by far, the religion that is most guilty of division. So many denominations, so many books and tapes sold in the name of promoting tradition and dogma as the very thing God wants, instead of understanding the true principles of faith. Is this not the exact same bone Jesus had to pick with the religious leaders of his day? Only today we take and downsize the work on the cross, and then, idolatrously, promote this finite idea of God, as the only valid concept – despite the volumes of scripture that testify otherwise.
This is why the Jews understand God to be purely spiritual of origin, incorporeal and to never have an image created to depict Him. Once we make an image, we’ve shattered the whole and lost the idea of “one God”. Now we’ve got 16 of them and fight incessantly over which one is the real God. The same principal applies with nationalism, racism, religious extremism, socioeconomic classes… Clearly, this seems to be a huge diversion that has distracted many religious people; keeping them from practicing true biblical and spiritual faith.
David,
You said, “Could you throw some of the contradictory passages at me.”
John 14:6 and Mathew 8:10-12 are the main two verses which in my opinion seem to contradict each other. As for the rest of Paul’s and John’s writings I just find a variety of things don’t seem to match. For example in Paul’s writings he says many times that Jesus returned to heaven (implying that is where he came from). John seems to back this up by saying many times that Jesus came from heaven.
Outside of Paul’s and John’s writings there is no mention either in the New Testament or Old Testament that Yeshua/Jesus/Messiah had come from heaven or would be returning to heaven. This is one of those contradictions (or red flags) that causes me to doubt the writings of Paul and John.
Maybe I’m simple minded but I like the simple message I get from studying the Synoptics, Acts, James, and 1st. Peter. To me God’s message is simple and straightforward and these books and letters reflect a simple straightforward message. When you try to throw in the writings of Paul and John suddenly everything becomes muddy and complicated and you have all these misunderstandings and misinterpretations.
Like Jesus pre-existing as God the Son, and Jesus personally creating the universe and everything in it, etc…
“John 14:6 and Mathew 8:10-12 are the main two verses which in my opinion seem to contradict each other.”
Thomas
I dont see any contradiction between these 2 passages. To the matter of fact i see Matthews bearing witness to Johns and viceversa. In Matthews the subject is faith in the word he is preaching which we know was the law and the spirit of the law but that is not the only things that is needed to enter the Sabbath rest. they also need to recognize the kiing who will reign in Gods place while God rest on HIS Sabbath. Plus they need to recognize that his death was the fulfillment of the OT sacrafice making all sacrafices that were performed before His effective making Jesus the Way to the Sabbath rest along with the way the salvation by his perfect sacrafice that redeemed all people from the sin of Adam that was being held against all people and nailed that mark against mankind to the tree.
There will be no one enter the Sabbath rest with out recognizing Jesus and those who dont will not enter the Sabbath and will stay in darkness of the grave till judgement and there would be no salvation for anyone without Jesus nailing Adams sin to the tree.
So you see JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY
Have a great Sabbath
Robert
You said, “…I see Matthew’s bearing witness to John’s and vice versa. In Mathews the subject is faith in the word he is preaching which we know was the law and the spirit of the law but that is not the only things that is needed to enter the Sabbath rest…So you see JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY.”
Of course you may be right. I am just a humble layman, but from my reading of Mathew 8:10-12 it seems to imply that many people that don’t know the teachings of Yeshua/Jesus and are unaware of the OT God and his commandments will still be able to achieve salvation and will be reclining at the table with Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac in the kingdom of heaven before many of the children of Israel will.
Like David says in message #35 “Goodness is the fruit we are to produce….There are people of all walks of life, following all sorts of religious traditions who are keeping the commandments as these are written in their hearts. I firmly believe that anyone of any religious tradition (or lack thereof) , who is doing what Jesus taught/commanded is made righteous in God’s eyes and merits the world to come…”
I completely agree with David is saying above, but from my experience most Christians would not, and would quote John 14:16 as proof that I and David are wrong in our beliefs. Most Christians will say that you must know Yeshua/Jesus as your savior and some will even add different conditions on top of that. Some will say you must be baptized, others will say you must also be born again, some others like the RC church will say you must believe certain doctrines (which they lay out) and also participate regularly in various sacraments, etc…
The JW’s apparently have their own list of conditions to achieve salvation, which include that they must know Yehovah and Yeshua/Jesus, etc…
Because of my interpretation of Mathew 8:10-12 I seem to disagree with what the majority of Christians believe and what all these others (that I mentioned above) are saying and teaching. But of course I must admit that I could be wrong, but I don’t believe (in my heart) that I am…..
Thomas
I would like to call your attention to the passage below where Jesus is in charge of Judgement of ALL nations.
Do you not see that these in this verse
“40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
dont not necessarily know Jesus but find out that the way they treated their fellow human Jesus counted as service to Him.
Do you not see Jesus as the one who judges on matters of Salvation(Lambs book of Life) As the ONLY WAY.
THIS IS REFERENCE TO JUDGEMENT DAY
Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Hi David and Thomas,
either I am seriously wrong or you are! To begin with, what we agree on:
To be saved, you do not need to be part of a certain denomination.
To be saved, it is not enough to say a prayer, proclaiming Jesus as your lord, yet do his Father’s will. In other words: a dead faith does not save a person.
Where we disagree:
You say basically: Faith is not necessary for salvation. See:
That contradicts numerous statements in Scripture!
I will list just a few:
Romans 1, 16-17
Romans 3, 10-12 and 21-26
Heb. 11, 6
Rev. 21, 8 (emphasis mine)
To #43
Sorry, I meant:
To be saved, it is not enough to say a prayer, proclaiming Jesus as your lord, yet not do his Father’s will. In other words: a dead faith does not save a person.
Robert
You said, “Do you not see that these in this verse, ‘And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, In as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it onto me.’ don’t necessarily know Jesus but find out the way they treated their fellow human, Jesus counted as service to him.”
I can now see why it is you are agreeing with what David and I are saying, but from my experience it seems most Christians wouldn’t interpret these scriptures that way. I really like the way you explained that above though.
You also said, “Do you not see Jesus, as the one who judges, on matters of salvation (Lambs book of life), as THE ONLY WAY.”
When you explain it like that than I must admit what John says in in 14:16 doesn’t seem to contradict Mathew 8:10-12. I guess I just never looked at it that way before. It would appear that I might be mistaken about John 14:16 contradicting Mathew 8:10-12. Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me.
You have a Great Sabbath as well, and God Bless…
Thomas,
you have often said, that you don’t trust John and Paul – at least when they seem to contradict the rest of NT.
To me, either all of Scripture is inspired by God and therefore 100% true (in its original texts) or I cannot trust any of it. That would be at least true for the NT (since the OT has Jesus affirming it). Yet, the fact that Jesus affirmed the OT is only brought to us by the NT, making it of no value, if we don’t trust the NT.
The NT even besides John and Paul – including all words of Jesus – is not written by Jesus, but by fallible men. There is no chance that they got it all right, except one: God inspired them and watched over their writing. And if he did it with them, I am sure, he did it with Paul and John as well. Not to mention that John was not only one of the twelfe, but the apostle that was especially close to Jesus.
If you reject parts of the NT for being too complicated or seemingly contradicting other parts of Scripture, then you would need to do the same with parts of the OT. (like Ps 82, 6: I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.)
But that is not necessary: all of Scripture is true. Once you believe this, you find much more debth and riches therein. As long as you decide what is right and what is wrong, Scripture cannot have its full effect on you.
I do not say, that I have an explanation for every difficult passage. But in trying to understand tensions and to solve seeming contradictions we grow in our understanding. God will help us to understand, if we honestly desire so and trust him and his Word completely.
Silke
It seems you can not separate whats speaking of entering the Sabbath rest and Salvation, you just seem to throw it all together.
Also you seem to feel that copies of copies of copies of translations dont need to be checked for accuracy and some contraditions exist because of errors and corruption(be it few) within what we have today. Matthew was witnessed by many early church fathers as being written in hebrew first then translated the best they could. there are many verses commented about that do not match the greek Mattthew and several verses that didnt exist in hebrew that was ADDED to the greek. Of these verses are the first 2 chapters in the greek that completely contradicts Lukes account of the same subjects and also contradicts the OT quotes in hebrew.
Plus many of Hebrew/Greek experts are claiming the wording of most of the NT proves it was written in hebrew first than translated to greek later by who knows who.
The OT contadicts itself in many translations, MT,LXX,Targums and Dead Sea scrolls and within some early jewish writings.
Therefore when a contadition occurs we should go to every source we possibly can to see if its an an error,mistranslation,misinterpretation. As Thomas feels I also feel that anything that contradicts Jesus own words must be an
error,mistranslation,misinterpretation so figuring out which takes research of languages,idioms that werent translated and usages of words in a particular time..
Tradition just makes explainations for the contradictions using the word mystery as the most common.
Only the autographs were God breathed and man has had his hand in them every since.
There is so much info that can help us find the true meanings.
As for me i dont have to claim what we call a bible today is perfect to have faith, all i have to do is approach it in a truthful way setting aside traditional misconceptions that blinds the average christian to not seeing the truth that is still very provable using all resources available.
Silke
You said, “To me, either all scripture is inspired by God and therefore 100% true (in it’s original texts) or I can’t trust any of it.”
Most Christians I talk to about my beliefs will say the exact same thing, but from my point of view this is an emotional/irrational argument, not based on reason. The word ‘Bible’ just means a collection of books. If I were to claim that, because I proved that several books in a collection of books were not authentic, and that this somehow proves that all the other books in the collection were also not authentic, you would rightly say that the one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
To me this is just basic common sense. But people (especially people that have spent years studying the bible) become emotionally attached to the bible and will make these emotional, non rational arguments. Prior to the year 1000AD there were dozens of collections of Christian books and letters (or bibles as they were called). Basically every Christian country had it’s own bible (or collection of books) that it thought were authentic.
In the year 1000AD the pope declared the current bible (that we have today) as the one and only official bible and ordered all other bibles (or collections of books) destroyed. Many early Christian writings were destroyed at this time, just because these writings had not been included in this new bible.
I have only read about one other person, that is Martin Luther, that agreed with me that the pope 1000 years ago was not infallible, and that certain books or letters should not have been included in the New Testament cannon. Martin Luther wanted to remove several books and letters from the New Testament cannon.
I admit my beliefs are very unique, and I don’t know of any other living person that agrees with me, but I believe that we should look at each book and letter in the bible individually, and not idolize this particular collection of books and letters as if God himself hand picked them out of all the other Christian books and letters that have been written throughout history.
It is difficult to have a rational discussion on this topic with people. They will say, like you, that if you question one book or letter than that somehow takes away from the authenticity of the remaining books and letters. Or I have had some people quote Paul when he said, “All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, etc..”
Is it really rational to think that Paul was saying that in about 1000 years from now a church (which didn’t exist in Paul’s time) is going to put together a collection of scriptures that is infallible and beyond question or scrutiny??? I don’t think so. I don’t idolize the bible and make it into something that it is not. It is just a collection of books and letters written by fallible men.
The bible clearly says we should test everything and retain what is good. But people will say that doesn’t apply to the bible and I will say, “Why not?” We should test all our beliefs. I test my beliefs by sharing them on this site and listening to the feedback I get. Very often Robert or someone else will convince me that I was wrong about something.
I don’t mean to offend anyone by asking questions etc… I’m just a layman trying to understand a very complicated subject. Please don’t be offended if I question something that you believe to be true. I honestly don’t mean to offend anyone…
Silke (msg. #43)
You said, “Either I am seriously wrong or you are! To begin with, what we agree on:
To be saved, you do not need to be part of a certain denomination.
To be saved, it is not enough to say a prayer, proclaiming Jesus as your Lord, and yet not doing his Father’s will. In other words: a dead faith does not save a person.”
I’m glad we agree on this. Like James said, “Faith without works is dead.”
You also said: “Where we disagree:
You basically say that, Faith is not necessary for salvation.”
Then you go on to quote several scriptures. I don’t even know if you realize that everything you quote is either written by Paul or John. I have a simple question for you. Don’t you find it strange that such a fundamental teaching is not mentioned outside of the writings of Paul or John???
As a matter of fact from my reading of the rest of the scriptures it talks about people that have God’s law written on their hearts, and because they follow their hearts, they follow God’s law, and presumably their behavior is pleasing to God, even though they are consciously unaware and ignorant of the law.
To me this seems to contradict what Paul teaches as you quoted above. Paul apparently quotes the OT in Romans 3:10-12 when he says, “As it is written, there is none righteous, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God…There is none that doeth good, no, not one…”
To me this quote was talking about a specific time in Israel’s history when all had turned away from the ways of God, and as a result, God destroyed the holy city of Jerusalem, and of course the temple itself. It does not mean that no one in the entire world (from then till now) is leading a life that is pleasing to God. If it did it would contradict other scriptures that talk about some people who have God’s law written on their hearts.
At least that’s the way I see it anywaze…
“As a matter of fact from my reading of the rest of the scriptures it talks about people that have God’s law written on their hearts, and because they follow their hearts, they follow God’s law, and presumably their behavior is pleasing to God, even though they are consciously unaware and ignorant of the law.”
Thomas
The matter is that Paul in Romans 2 actually presents the exact same understanding as you are reading from the rest of the NTwritings and OT scriptures. Therefore even Paul believed the same as you. This must mean the rest of Pauls writings must be mistranslated,misinterpreted or being read completely out of context.
In Romans Paul is addressing a mixed crowd and the only problem he has with the jews is they dont follow the law and his praise of the gentiles is some have always followed the righteousness of it even before they ever heard it preached. The word righteousness should be read as the morals of it as it pertains to how they treat their fellow human and can not include worship of God or knowledge of Jesus because Paul teached from the Law and the Prophets concerning Jesus.
If you look around the world today in almost any religion you will find evidence of what Paul is speaking of in this passage
even though these religions have never read our bible.
These will be judged by their actions towards mankind along with the christians and the jews who didnt take hold of the Physical promise to Abraham to possess ALL the Land God showed Him. Before Jesus this this was done by the attempt to follow all the commandments and if you failed then following the Part of the Law that allowed a sacrafice to atone for it in which after Jesus’ death we find these sacrafices were counted effective by the perfect sacrafice. No one can be found righteous after Jesus by the Old covenant without knowing Jesus was the fulfillment of this sacrafice in which Hebrews deals completely with.
Only parts of the Old covenant became void with Jesus’ death and those are the ones he fulfilled by becoming the true meaning of them.
I was reading from the Psalms and saw where David said that the laws of God were written in his heart. This is something that prophets prophesied of. It’s happening and will happen to more as God’s kingdom appears more and more to men on this earth
I am saved freely by God’s grace, without works, by faith in Jesus.
My faith in Jesus is not without works. If it was I trust it would be dead. Faith produces works. Faith is energized by love. Love produces fruit. Love is not unfruitful.
When I need salvation from sin, I can not point to my works which Christ may have done through me (depending on whether they were good or bad. Jesus does only what is good) but can only come to the saving grace of God which is by the power of the cross of Jesus who forgave all and suffered unto death shedding his blood on account of my sins which are no different than those that were against him at that time.
It seems to me that there may be as many sinners inside a church as there are outside of one.
When there are those who walk contrary to God and they are Christians, (a brother) the only meal I should eat with them is holy communion, for at that meal each is responsible for himself and how he partakes of what Jesus did for our salvation on his way and on the cross.
If a church says one can only participate in holy communion if one agrees with all their doctrines and practices, where then is holy communion with Christ? Don’t we have to ask ourselves if this really is the Lord’s supper? One would have to decide that for himself I suppose. I wish they wouldn’t complicate it so. Such a thing might be worth a letter to the pastor at the very least.
God in his wisdom set the creation up knowing that men would fall.
A loving Father might give his son a bicycle knowing he will fall.
I wonder if a life without consequences would be any kind of life at all. I thank God he heals us from falls and lets us do things like riding bicycles. If a thing can be done the right way, in honor to God, it might be a thing worth doing.
Robert
You said, “The matter is that Paul in Romans 2 actually presents the same understanding as you….Therefore even Paul believed the same as you. This must mean the rest of Paul’s writings must be mistranslated, misinterpreted or being read completely out of context.”
I just read Romans chapter 2 and I see what you mean. You of course could be right. I do try to keep an open mind on these things. I could be completely wrong in my beliefs. That is why I don’t try to teach others my beliefs. I just share/explore my beliefs with others and listen to the feedback…
Ray
You said, “Faith is energized by love. Love produces fruit. Love is not unfruitful….A loving Father might give his son a bicycle knowing he will fall….I thank God he heals us from falls and lets us do things like riding bicycles.”
I completely agree with you. No one has led a completely sinless life except Jesus, but I don’t think that means no that one, overall, has ever led a life that is pleasing go God. I strongly believe in redemption if it wasn’t for Christ redeeming me, I wouldn’t have any hope at all…
@ Siilkie…
I never said salvation didn’t come from faith. It is by faith and grace alone we are saved. I think there is a stark difference between “easter bunny” faith, and true faith.
Easter bunny faith applied to Jesus says: “I believe Jesus exists, died for the sins of the world, and was resurrected. If we believe Satan is a person or a being, then this sort of faith would be applied to him as well, as I’m sure satan knows Jesus exists, died for the sins of the world, and was resurrected.
True faith or belief on Jesus says: “I believe you are who you say you are therefore I am zealous for your cause. Thus I will confess (Greek: homoeogeo) [def: to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent] your very same words, principals, actions, teachings. Because I believe I will apply them.”
In order to apply my second definition, it requires FAITH, through Grace… and all of this took the cross to make it happen.
Only by faith does one even remotely believe the principals and commands Jesus gave us MAKE ANY SENSE according to our own soul’s logic, the knowledge of this world. Only by faith can one do this, because it is so backwards compared to the world’s thinking.
Faith isn’t simple belief. It’s fervent belief for Messiah’s belief, cause and message.
Faith or Pi’stis (Greek): Conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it.
Faith in what? Messiah. What did God the OT say about him? (Paraphrasing) I’ll put my word in his mouth, and you better believe him and do what he says. If you have faith in who messiah is, you’ll do what he says.
Word… Logos. What is Logos? Of many of the definitions: it is idea, concept, docrine, teaching, anything reported in speech.
All I’m saying is… is he paid for all of our sins on the cross and made it so we can live under grace. We no longer have to work to earn our way into right standing with God. We have his righteousness.
As far as Idolatry… Jesus himself said every sin will be forgiven, except for the blaspheme of the holy spirit. Remember, it is the unrepentant, that have the problem. Also, it may be worth while to note that the majority of world religions although having idols (trinitarianism included), believe in an all encompassing, omnipotent being, which can only be described by them as infinite, unbounded, unconditional love and pure conciousness; which they say is above all of their idols. This description is a fit for YHVH as understood by the Jews for thousands of years.
The reason idolatry is biblically wrong, is because it is divisive. It causes a forget fullness of the indwelling of the holy spirit in man, and causes us to see the world in a shattered way. The one true image of God has been shattered in a zillion different images. It is for this exact reason I (and I believe DT) have the views we have on what exactly “faith” means. Because we wish to combat Idolatry in all it’s forms, and divisiveness is at it’s root, divisiveness and disconnection is also the root of all sin. “I am different from you.” “I can see we are different”. “I am better than you”…
Others would say it means faith on the fleshly appearance of Jesus. We just simply say this faith is on the spirit, intention, logos of Jesus. Others say the bible speaks about religious concepts. We just say it’s about spiritual concepts. Others say the word of God is a sword that divides people. We say it is a sword that divides earthly soul from heavenly spirit.
ARE WE ALL SO BLIND, that we cannot see the spirit of God and yet instead look at outward appearances with our own eyes of flesh?
Knowing Love is knowing God, for God is Love.
If anything at all, this is what is referred to as requiring faith, this is what Jesus taught, and this is what is made possible by his atoning sacrifice on the cross, and by grace. If the power of GOD thru the cross shatters the boundaries of time, it surely can shatter the boundaries imposed by MAN-made religions and interpretations.
For instance in Bhuddism and Hinduism (and many other world practices) they strive for patience, love, compassion, forgiveness and correct speech, seeking that one day the cycle of life/death would end on earth completely… Sound familiar? It kinda takes faith for any normal person put any of these principles into any kind of practice for long. Spiritually, these are aligned with the will of God, His purpose, His plan, and His ways. Outwardly, it’s a different practice, and a different tradition.
The important thing is that by recognizing this, and accepting a more syncristic viewpoint we can make allies in the spiritual war against sin and death, instead of wasting our time trying to facistly try to convert everyone. The idea that anyone has to change their culture or practice in order to become a christian is ABSURD. It isn’t that we need to look at how to “fit other religions” with christianity. It’s how do we get “christianity” to fit into other religions. Scripturally it’s sound. Everything i’m telling you is perfectly sound. It is UNORTHODOX. It has nothing to do with the doctrine that has been held by the mainstream for the last 1500 years. But this is the way that we can gather spiritual allies from all of the corners of the earth, to do battle with our spiritual enemy, and actually deliver the gospel and have it fall on ears that will accept it. People don’t listen because they have to “convert” to a religion. Christianity is not and was never meant to be a religion. It’s a way of life, it is a faith, but it is not a religion. There is no Jew or Gentile in Jesus/Messiah. Since Christianity did not exist in a formal sense back then… let me try this another way so it makes sense for today. “There is no Christian or Gentile in Jesus”.
As a pure faith it remains compatible with other tradition’s way of “doing things”. When approached this way, it has more power.
But you don’t have to take my word for it.
Religious people kinda see it as the small piece of the pie vs the rest of the world… Gotta make em all Christian! If that’s the case then the words of Jeremiah the prophet aren’t true yet, and there is no new covenant yet… which means Jesus has to die again. Hardly a nice reality. The way I see it, the whole world is already G-d’s, we just have an issue of sin, which exists in all religions in all peoples. It’s something that affects us as a whole. And as a whole we need to band together so that all people will know who God is and Who is Messiah is. 
Like I said, you don’t have to choose to take my word for it. Maybe God didn’t choose for you believe or have the same faith we do.
Shalom.
David
You said, “It is for this exact reason that I (and I believe DT) have the views we have on what exactly ‘faith’ means. Because we want to combat Idolatry in all it’s forms, and divisiveness is at it’s root, divisiveness and disconnection is also the root of all sin. ‘I am different from you.’ I can see we are different. ‘I am better than you.’ … Others would say it is faith in the fleshly appearance of Jesus. We just simply say the faith is on the spirit, intention, logos of Jesus. Others say the bible speaks of religious concepts. We just say it’s about spiritual concepts.”
That DOES describe what I believe. It’s not knowing what God and his son Yeshua/Jesus requires from us that is important. The important thing is actually doing what God and his son Yeshua/Jesus require of us. I try my best to understand the message of God and the teachings/parables of his son Yeshua/Jesus not so that I can just say that I know them, but so that I can try my best to follow them in my day to day life.
Compared to most people on this site I have a lot to learn. I find much of it very complicated and hard to understand. I try to ignore the parts that I can’t understand, and instead try to concentrate on the parts that make sense to me, and that I can understand. As time goes by, and as I continue to read the articles and posts made by the many knowledgeable people on this site, I’m sure I will continue to learn much much more…
David
Thanks for the links you gave me. I don’t really understand the difference between the Tanakh and the Torah though. Is the Torah the written law and the Tanakh the Oral law???
Thomas
It is what jews call the canon of the whole OT as (jewish)Masoretic text of the hebrew language.
The Torah(law) ,Prophets and other writings apart from the first 2 and all are a part of Tanakh.
It gets very confusing when people start mixing other languages together.
DT,
The Torah is the first 5 books of the bible.
1. Genesis – Bereshith
2. Exodus – Shemot
3. Leviticus – Vayikra
4. Numbers – Bamidbar
5. Deuteronomy – Devarim
The TeNaKh is the whole “Old Testament” It’s an acronym for “Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim” or “Law/Instruction, Prophets, Writings.
Also, strangely enough… I was praying last night regarding the topics here and I ran across this page: http://www.newdimensions.us/content.cfm?id=2010
While the Bishop is seemingly Trinitarian, he sums up the Good News as we believe it (Inclusion/Christian Centered Univeralism) quite nicely, and even contrasts it to other forms of universalism which aren’t Christ centered. This fits nicely with “The mystery of the Gospel” according to Lancaster of FFOZ, which is the full inclusion of all the gentile nations.
I think all of us here, myself especially have much to learn. What we don’t know is so much larger than what we do know. It truly is the time where Christianity needs to move from milk to meat and potatoes. To put aside the simple tenants of our faith (baptism, rituals, atonement) and move on to to the mature tenants of our faith.
The bible is quite clear that the redemption of man is not an agreement between ourselves and God. This is a deal that was made on our behalf between God and His Son, Yeshua.
The world has been redeemed. We just don’t know it or agree with it. That is the problem. We’ve formed these unbiblical doctrines in error, limiting the work that was done on the Cross, and teaching the exclusion of people that was already paid for by God. Salvation is a gift of grace, and from grace comes faith. Why do we teach that it must first be earned? Something God does is something God does, that’s reality. I can’t “unbeleive” the law of gravity no matter how hard I try. I’m sure gravity worked long before Issac Newton came along. I can’t “unbelieve” the sun rising, or night falling.
Was the new covenant sealed by the blood of our Messiah or was it not?
It’s the last and final tactic of a defeated enemy… lead everyone to believe the war isn’t over. He’s been defeated and still claims he hasn’t been. The enemy lies, his native language is lies. Of course when defeated, he does’t claim defeat… In the mean time getting everyone to point fingers at each other lest they discover the truth.
btw… I hold different theories on the after-life than Pearson. To tell the truth I have no idea what his ideas are on the matter, but I do know that the bible is clear time and time again that it is God’s will that no man be lost, and that all be saved. Clearly. This however doesn’t reconcile the passages concerning hell.
There are two kinds of hell in the Bible. Sheol/Hades, and Lake of Fire. The first is a place of torment/punishment where the dead are judged according to their deeds in this life and receive an eye for an eye. There are varying degrees of punishment unique to the person. This is a Jewish concept. It is much like the Catholic concept of Purgatory. It could very well be a form of rebirth in this world into any number of socioeconomic situations or any given age or any given time… nobody really knows.
The lake of fire… It makes no sense that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire. Not to mention that sheol is emptied of it’s dead before being thrown in. How do inanimate states of existence (ie: death and punishment) burn and suffer in hell? This is where they go to cease to exist. This is a place of destruction. Total separation from God. It is a Hebrew concept that God permeates all of creation and existence, without God there can be no existence, only total and complete oblivion and darkness. This version of hell one is completely destroyed. Oblivion/Destruction is a bit more humane and more linguistically accurate than burning flesh. Heaven on Earth wouldn’t be heaven at all knowing people we can’t help are burning. Would you be able to eat at a banquet knowing full well there were starving people right outside watching? And even if you could, it would ruin the experience. Duh.
There are other explanations here as well, I would recommend “death is sleep” for reading above. But I felt I had to throw that out there because I’m sure someone will jump all over what I said with something about hell as if I were excusing the doctrine altogether, but ultimately it is His will no one be lost. We can read that time and time again.
Anyways, we should probably get back on topic: Jesus’ Main Teaching. I think its clearly about the Kingdom Of God, here in side of us, where God lives in our own holy of holies. Grasping his teaching us to walk in love and in respect, without judgement and condemnation, blamelessly proclaiming and walking in love creates a regeneration of the spirit inwardly (The holy spirit that lives in our bodily temple). This ties hand-in-hand with the biblical concept of God’s Kingdom on Earth. (For in his house there are many rooms [people/spirits]) If everyone repents, then the entire Earth would be come, once again, the Garden of Eden.
Jesus’s death and atonement on the cross MADE us all blameless before G-d, and through grace continues to MAKE/KEEP us blameless. What people fail to understand is that the law of sin and death for not keeping the whole law had nothing to do with the individual whatsoever. It has always been a COMMUNAL thing. It was not the individual who needed to keep the law, it was the entire nation collectively. It was not up to the individual to attempt any kind of justification through working the law. It was an all or nothing covenant between God and the PEOPLE, never God and the Individual. Ask ANY other Rabbi, you will not hear any different. This is why Jesus’ atonement on the Cross is not and cannot be for the individual only. It had to pay/atone for a covenant that was over the entire people. Likewise, the new covenant which is also made for the PEOPLE according to God himself in the Bible, has absolutely nothing to do with the individual either. It is however up to the individual to choose how to walk in faith according to what Jesus taught, also trusting in the atonement of the cross, lest he be convinced to work the works of any law for the sake of righteousness, or fall away to sin.
What Jesus taught other than the Kingdom above is how to STAY blameless. We don’t stay blameless by doing works of law, we stay blameless by walking in love. We stay blameless also by not blaming or judging. He was keen on teaching that too. If we shall judge not, we will not be judged. Paul tells us that Love forgets the past, and does not count wrongs.
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.”
“What people fail to understand is that the law of sin and death for not keeping the whole law had nothing to do with the individual whatsoever. It has always been a COMMUNAL thing. It was not the individual who needed to keep the law, it was the entire nation collectively. It was not up to the individual to attempt any kind of justification through working the law. It was an all or nothing covenant between God and the PEOPLE, never God and the Individual. Ask ANY other Rabbi, you will not hear any different.”
David
This couldnt be futher from whats written in the OT.
What people fail to understand is The kingdom of Israel as a nation was said By God that they would fail.
It was always about the individual.
That view would make this statement by God a lie, Not only was it about the individual in Israel ,It was also about ANY individual who wanted to take part in this special promise made to Abraham. we know this special promise is not the one of Grace which all good people will be saved which comes after the reward for the individual marking with the signs God set forth for this special promise.
So if a rabbi would tell you this than he is NO rabbi
Isaiah 56
Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, [1] and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Robert/David
Thanks for explaining the difference between the Tenakh and the Torah…
Shalom
DT,
You’re very welcome.
————-
Robert,
I don’t think you understand what I’m saying, as it appears we’re getting into a dispute over semantics. I never said the onus of responsibility is not on the individual. This is elementary and obvious.
It has always been the Jewish individual’s responsibility to keep the commandments, and the Jewish communities responsibility to ensure the individuals are keeping it, joining or keeping them jointed to the people. Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying, or I failed to write this simple fact, thinking it was commonly understood as the individual’s responsibility.
What I’m talking to is about the idea of a “personal atonement” or a “personal savior” (completely unbiblical BTW). The only thing personal about it is one’s personal choice. The atonement was for all, who are all under the law, who break all of the commandments daily. If we break one of the mitzvot, or fail to comply we break the covenant. This is because is written “Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgements, and do them”
Regardless of the involvement of the individual the covenant was still to a group. The blessings or curses were given to the people. An individual doesn’t get rain or no rain on his or her plot, while his neighbors do. That is absurd. In addition all prayers refer to God as “our” god, who commands “us” to keep. The lord’s prayer in itself is communal, there is no sense of use of “I” (including the Lord’s). And according to Jewish tradition stemming from this, Torah is not taught except by Minyan (at least 10 men) as it is understood that it is a communal act.
“And the answer will be: “It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt”
Leviticus 26: Blessings/Curses upon the people.
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0326.htm
My point is that the atonement made on the Cross covers an entire people, as the first covenant was given to an entire people. The old sacrifices given at the temple, were to atone for the people as a whole. Other sacrifices were given to redeem the rest of the flock or crops. Since an entire people accepted the covenant, an entire people must be redeemed by blood atonement.
But it was not only Israel who needed blood atonement. The words of Paul open this up further: “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law…For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law…”
Because as Paul said: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree.”"
Because the new covenant is born from the older that was already sealed and agreed to by the people… the atonement was already accepted along with it. The death on the cross isn’t about getting into the kingdom or being saved. It is about being redeemed from the curse of the law, which was a death sentence for us.
It is now the onus of the individual to walk righteously, in grace and faith to the teachings of our Messiah, in love so we produce good fruit. It is now because of what was done on the cross that we have a clean slate and can now be Judged by our fruit, and not by weather or not we can keep 613 commandments. If the atonement on the cross had anything to do with accepting it and being magically granted entrance into the kingdom, then there would be absolutely no reason for Jesus to teach us, or give us commandments to keep or live by. There would be no reason it was written “Depart from me as I know you not, you workers of lawlessness”. It would have been written “I know you not, you people that don’t believe I died for you”.
It requires faith in the atonement for us to understand grace and it’s immutability, that we are not justified from the law, with our works. Christ’s blood redeemed us, and it is Grace that justifies us into right standing with God who no longer remembers our sins according to the law. The onus is still on each individual of our people to practice the law as given by the King. If you love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
So… be not deceived when someone says the work on the cross is what grants one entrance into the kingdom simply because they have easter bunny faith. This was a once and for all time atonement for the breaking of the law. Just as the first Adam had to die because his bride sinned and so he took upon himself to become sin and die, so did the second Adam have to die for the sins of his bride. We are no longer under the penalty of death for sin, but what was purchased is our opportunity for eternal life. It is granted to those only who keep the commandments given to us by Messiah: To Love.
Make no mistake, I am not saying works justifies a man. Salvation from complete death and destruction is a gift from God that cannot be earned, and that no works can justify us. If it is works then it is not a gift. The gift is salvation from eternal death.
But eternal life… that is a whole different ball game. That is a choice, and that is worked by our faith in what Jesus taught us to do, in faith TO our master. We should do works of love, so that others see us and that they praise God for it. One must put their hand to the plow and not look back. And people, plowing is work. (Galatians 1:6,9; 5:1,13; 6:1-10).
I already know that I’m going to get flak from the people that mix up “salvation from death” with “entrance into eternal life”. It was salvation from death so that we may come to eternal life. But I know what I’m speaking about. Because of this, I won’t respond. If they won’t hear it they won’t get it. If they want to pick my brain to learn something, then i’ll respond.
Anyways, that’s all that I was trying to illustrate here about community. I wasn’t trying to take the onus off of the individual. That much is already obvious so I felt no need to write about it.
Kol Tov
David
You have the promise of grace mixed with the promise of entering the Sabbath rest.
They are 2 different promises.
while a lot of what you say is true ,it is only pertaining to the promise of Grace. Those who did not take hold of the Old Covenant and those that did will have to rely upon Grace to receive salvation.But this is not the promise to enter the sabbath rest.
When Jesus went to his death as the perfect sacrafice he acheived to separate things. First he fulfilled the Old Covenant by becoming the true sacrafice and sacraficial system and the judicial system, second he redeemed mankind from the Sin of Adam by nailing it to the cross thus fulfilling the promise that ALL nations(ALL PEOPLE) would be blessed. This blessing WAS GRACE.
Under the first one the commandments of God are the requirements and the reward is the Sabbath Rest of God(1000 year kingdom before salvation) and under the second is only OUR PERSONAL SINS are counted against US, Nolonger are we sinners just because of Adam, Now our actions are the only things that can make us not acceptable to God.
I can not for the world see whats so hard with this, I see it but feel I wont take part in the Sabbath Rest because i dont know if the signs of other nations(Mark of Beast) can be replaced with the signs of Israel. I spent 46 years as a citizen of another nation not taking hold of the Sabbath, having idols such as the cross,Having more then one supreme God with Jesus as equal.
But why i dont know because now i see the truth its beautiful. false prophets took my crown because NOW I know the very day God called me but ignored it for 30 years.
I will confirm my last post by saying I understood your post and will state again it is not biblical.
Robert
You said, “But why I don’t know because now I see the truth it’s beautiful. False prophets took my crown because NOW I know the very day God called me but ignored it for 30 years.”
I wouldn’t give up hope for attaining the Sabbath rest that you desire. It is never too late to repent and change your ways. Remember the story of the prodigal son. The father was so extremely happy to see his son repent and return to him that he slaughtered a fattened calf and had a huge banquet. Jesus told us this story so we could understand how God feels when one of his lost children finally find their way back to him.
Also there’s the story Jesus told in Luke 15:5-7 “And when he had found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven for one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.”
Right after this in 15:9 Jesus says, “And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’..”
Of course I do not know if you will be chosen as part of the 1000 year Sabbath rest or not, but I think it is clear from what Jesus said, that you should not give up hope so easily. I strongly believe in repentance and redemption.
Have a good night and God Bless…
Thomas
I do have hope that I am wrong and Hope to be very surprized.
But if I dont I would be very happy to take part in Salvation.
I believe the things i am doing to be apart of the Sabbath rest will keep me from being immoral. They are very profitable towards staying acceptable to God.
I know 4 months ago when i was able to see the 2 promises as pertaining to separate times I was very disappointed I forsaked my calling to separate from other nations by not taking hold of that promise, but now I am at peace knowing that ALL People were redeemed and have the same chance at Salvation.
You have a great night
and always God Bless
Robert… are you sure? I thought I specifically said grace has to do with salvation, and that salvation had nothing to do with inheritance of the kingdom, but was rather a pre-requisite. Can you elaborate?
Sorry for the double post…
Robert, I had to read what you said twice. I’ll have to agree to disagree with you at the moment because I feel the same way about your view as you do mine. This is because of Hebrews Chapters 3 & 4, plainly says that it is not the people Moses led from the desert who get to take place in the sabbath rest. Am I wrong in it’s interpretation? I’m interested in learning, so if i’m missing something here, help a brotha out.
Salvation is redemption from the death penalty given to us from breaking the law. Inheritance of the kingdom (to reign with christ) is given to the blameless. Through this gift we are given right standing with God/Justification. Those who are blameless are those who walk and labour in what Christ taught: Love thy neighbor and Judge not. Against which there is no law, and we cannot be judged, which gives us the right to judge/reign. I still attest to this scriptural fact, thus I believe you are okay, and will get your shot at the 1000 year promise.
Have a good night!
David
Hebrews is not adressing gentiles it is adressing those of the Israelite faith.
Those who were said would not enter the Rest were Israelites who forsaked the Covenant because of Disbelief.
Hebrews also shows that the former Kingdoms of Israel were not the Promise made to Abraham of possession. This promise was a still a future fulfillment and entrance is based on belief in the covenant and when they enter there will be a New covenant.
Hebrews was written to bring an understanding to those of the Old Covenant that Jesus Became their Sacraficial System , Meaning the old sacraficial laws were no longer required if you used Jesus to replace them.
Grace thru out the NT is adressed to ALL PEOPLE even those of the Israelite Faith because after the Sabbath Rest will come Salvation and All will be judged equaly even those who took part in the Rest. But i dont think it is possible to follow the Old covenant and lose acceptability to God..
Grace was giving to all people because Jesus made right the wrong of Adam.
Now we start out justified and through love stay that way or through hate condemn ourselfs.
I am not sure if there is any living that will enter The Rest because the gate was narrow for the first Israelite christians.
Hi, Robert, David and Thomas,
until now I did not find the time to read your answers to my comments.
Thank you for giving them, they made things more clear for me. That is, I certainly do not agree with you in those matters, yet, I see no chance right now, that my staying in this discussion would be of sufficient benefit.
Please, believe me, what I am saying is not at all meant as an offence. May our God help us (all of us), to understand more of his truth and will and help us to live according to it.
Silke,
You’ll find that many here, although stiff necked like me, aren’t too hardened and still take everything into account. I’ve learned from many of the views here. I know that I appreciate your participation very much and believe you have something to bring to the table. It may seem like we are all going back and forth, but I think we all take something away and learn. You are very polite and respectful, and that is exemplary behavior of a Christian.
David (msg. #57)
I’ve been thinking about Bishop Pearson’s theory that God plans to save all of his creation in the end (as per the link to the new dimensions site) and although it sounds appealing I find I cannot agree with it.
Jesus said in Mathew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.”
Also in the parable of the tares Mathew 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
Jesus seems to be quite clear that many will not make it to the promise of salvation but will be destroyed or burned. I don’t think Jesus would make such a stark warning if it were not true. Just as I’m sure God does, I also wish that as many people as possible will enter salvation, but it appears that there will be many that will not.
I can only pray that I am included among the wheat and taken into God’s barn…
Thomas
In these passages Jesus is speaking to Hebrew Christians and was not speaking of Salvation.
He hadnt even finished his work that redeemed all mankind from Adam’s sin.
The wheat and the tares is about the false prophets and the antichrist who are those who teach lies even though they know the truth, like the RCC who slaughtered True christians when they opposed their doctrines and others Large groups who have changed Gods words.one also denying Jesus as their King when they have had the truth of the prophets to witness that Jesus met every requirement.
This doesnt mean they will be burned up at beginning of Sabbath Rest,it just means they received judgement early and will burn up with the old world after the Sabbath when the earth is renewed. Peter would be great place to understand the earth being renewed by all the elements burning up. This is the period of time when the judgement from the book of dead and the Lambs book of life will happen in Heaven. while this happening those from the book of dead will be cast back to the earth to burn up and when it is renewed all those written will return to the earth in the state the garden of eden was in when adam was there.
while looking around in todays world I see billions out of every religion receiving salvation I also see Millions maybe billions not receiving salvation for crimes against God’s creations.
Its hard to separate the promises when even Paul preached Both
Robert
It is getting late now, but I will think about what you have said and I will read 1st. Peter tomorrow to see if I can see what you mean…
Robert
I found the spot in 2nd. Peter chapter 3 that you are talking about. Unfortunately I have had my doubts about the authenticity of 2nd. Peter for many years now. When I discovered that most biblical scholars agreed that 2nd. Peter was probably not written by Peter, I felt vindicated, because I had my doubts about this letter long before that. You of course could be right, but being the skeptical person that I am, I remain doubtful of the accuracy of the story being told here.
But getting back to what I was originally saying to David, I can’t agree with Bishop Pearson’s hypothesis that in the end God’s plan is to save all of his creation. Jesus clearly said that, “For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter it are many.”
That’s the way I see it anywaze…
Thomas
There are many other passages that speak of a fiery judgement of the wicked.
But trying to prove that within salvation there will be a multitude without using the whole bible would show to be almost impossible.
But you dont need to worry about it because if you are not one that is wriitten in the Lambs book of Life from this age then i dare to say no one is and i get this understanding from many books you find authenic but would be hard to explain.
Robert
You said, “But you don’t need to worry about it because if you are not one that is written in the Lambs book of Life from this age then I dare to say no one is…”
Thank you for the kind words. But I did spend nearly 20 years of my life as a staunch atheist denying God’s existence every chance I could. I’ve also done some terrible things during my life. But I have repented and changed my ways. From what I’ve read in the bible, God promises to forgive people like me. I have to pray that God would still want to redeem a sinner like myself…
Silke
I’m sorry to hear that you have decided to stop participating in our discussions. Like David and Robert said, you are very polite and respectful, I have a lot of respect for that. I hope I didn’t say anything that offended you. I am just very skeptical by nature, and tend to question things that other people take for granted.
From experience I know my beliefs will change over time as I learn more. If I were to go back 25 years, I would not have believed in God at all. About 22 or 23 years ago, I first started to believe in God, but at this time I was still not a Christian. I first investigated Buddhism and than Islam, after wasting many years, I finally decided that Christ’s message made the most sense to me.
I wasted many more years going to different churches, trying to understand God from the people I met. But I really didn’t learn very much. Finally about 10 years ago my best friend gave me a NIV study bible and I began to study God’s word for myself. What I’m trying to say is that even though I will be 50 years old in a few months, I am still a child when it comes to being a Christian.
I have trouble understanding many things and will always question things that don’t seem to make sense to me. Some people believe that I shouldn’t be questioning the very basics like I do, but like I said, it is my nature…
Thomas
If you are going to apply these statements to the promise of Grace then you need to apply all of it to it by showing that No one of the present day has not looked at another person they werent married to or was married to another person with lust thus making all mankind adultuers and no one can say they never hated so that makes them a murderer but we find salvation is still offered.
there were many things Jesus personally Addressed out of both promises thus the 2 gates , one sealing you and the other leaving you the possiblity of destruction.
Jesus was speaking about the promise with seals and signs as provided by following the Commandments of God as the narrow gate , the wide just leads to destruction because it doesnt provide the seal to protect you like the Commandments Of God
Hi, David, Thomas and Robert,
I would like to thank each one of you for your kind and encouraging words! I do plan to keep reading here and might enter into discussion at some point again.
My decision to step back for the moment has to do with two things: I do not get around with all the things I think I should. And I came here searching for fellow believers who do worship the only true God and who rely on Scripture as ultimate authority in all aspects. On that basis I had hoped to be able to jointly search for the truth and by that for God’s will.
It is exciting to have found several people all at once, who reject the false teachings about trinity. Yet, at the same time, I had to realize, that in other important aspects I find quite a few concepts in evangelical groups to be closer to the truth then some of the things I read here.
The point might just be, that I am wrong. But without a common ground especially in terms of the nature and status of Scripture and its basic messages this quest for truth gets at least far more complex and time consuming.
Thomas, please, don’t worry: you did not offend me. As long as you do not believe in all of Scripture being inspired by God, it is honest to say so. And thank you for sharing so openly about your spiritual journey. Your comments convey a friendly and humble attitude, that I definitly appreciate.
Robert, yes, we are not trying to convert one another. Yet, my goal is to see changes and growth happen – in my understanding and in the understanding of the people I am studying with, since this is part of growing in knowledge. I am sure, there is a lot more to learn and maybe even to rethink for me. I am looking forward to it.
Your sister – Silke
“Robert, yes, we are not trying to convert one another. Yet, my goal is to see changes and growth happen – in my understanding and in the understanding of the people I am studying with, since this is part of growing in knowledge. I am sure, there is a lot more to learn and maybe even to rethink for me. I am looking forward to it.
Your sister – Silke ”
Silke
the last 18 months I had to rethink and Prove my beliefs, there is hardly anything left of what i was taught that hasnt proven to be a lie. I grew up in a disciple of christ church which was very trinitarian but very discrete. they never used the concept of trinity within bible studies until you were baptised but thoroughly built up Jesus as the christian God from an early age.
After my baptism on easter after i turned 16 i started feeling very uncomfortable with the teachings of my church because of my prior studies(3 months of special studies) to be baptised and had a strong feeling not to be apart of it. From that moment the only time i went was at easter and this was for my grandma and once when they honored my grandma for being the oldest and longest member of the church.
For 30 years after that i lived by the teachings of Jesus but did not attend church or even read the bible.
18 months ago thru a strong feeling I started reading the OT which i read 6 times in different translations before rereading the NT. From there i started seeing that what i was taught was not what was written and also many of my beliefs were just tradition. I found that the OT was just as important for a christian as the NT. From there I started studying ancient writings of judaism, the early church fathers, and many historical writings of many ancient cultures. One by one sacred cows started to fall because they were not based on the truth written in anything I had read especially the bible.I started translating the hebrew and greek myself and started see that the english translations are corrupted by mistranslations that were giving to back up tradition not the truth.
Most of my beliefs are held by many large groups but none of these groups hold all of my beliefs.
So you see i have been open to better understandings and probably will find a few more.
I do enjoy the way you treat people in your discussions and just how zelous your are for God.
Your brother in the search for the truth, may we find it and live it always.
DT,
Like I said, I don’t necessarily agree with “every” aspect of Pearson’s theology. I agree with it to the point of that it vibes with what you and I believe, that salvation (a gift of God’s grace) is granted to all peoples. The cross was for all people, and that the obligation is to live by faith to the word/message of God and produce fruit. “God told Moses, I’m going to raise up a prophet just like Moses from the children of israel, and I’m going to put my words in his mouth, and you better do what he says.” It says nothing about faith or belief in the simple way that it’s understood today (easter-bunny faith). The fact is the NT is FULL of passages that say specifically that the faith or belief is the catalyst which causes one to “perform” or be “obedient” to the teachings of Christ. That faith alone is dead faith, and Christ himself says that he will tell the unobedient to depart from him. It is then logical then that the end goal of our faith is obedience to Christ’s message. Because that is faith in love, and God – IS – Love.
I believe based upon scripture that faith in the word/logos is applicable regardless of one’s personal religious tradition. This is because there are plenty of passages that affirm Jesus as the savior of all men. My favorite is that “Jesus is the savior of all men and especially to those who believe”
So this is why I agree with Pearson in some sense, because his theology fits hand in glove with mine in this respect.
The only remaining argument that could be presented by Trinitarains would be that there are many who worship idols in other religions; thus idol worship is a complete no-no. But the problem with that argument is that all of Trinitarianist Christianity worships idols/images. Not only do they worship idols/images, I would go as far as saying it’s even possible they worship the beast.. They worship 3 idols/images/”persons”. Instead of man being created in God’s image, they have created God in man’s image. Man’s number is six. God has been made into three persons. Thus the trinity = 6 + 6 + 6.
WE as Biblical Unitarians/Christian Monotheists worship the ONE God. We stick to the biblical creed. Our Lord is ONE Lord. Myself as a form of Biblical Universalist choose to see God as one, and recognize Him when we see his character or spirit expressed in a person regardless of their “Tradition”. I’ve never understood this triunity thing with God as a Bearded man in the sky, and jesus as a 2nd pre-existant God, and the 3rd being some guy in a bed sheet (also God) running around saying “holy ghoooooost holy ghoooooost”, but they are really not three, they are only one. Not even when it was taught to me as a child, I never bought into it. As a child I’ve always known and believed what I believe today, in the regard of my universalist and unitarian views. I just didn’t know how to express it, as I was taught for so long that it was wrong anyways. That is until I cracked open a bible and read it for myself.
The “trinity/tri-un God” wants a “one world church” through the hate of, subjugation, domination, and suppression of all other traditions. This “messiah” of theirs claims to actually BE God and wants to be exalted above ALL that is called God, in the place of God. Trinitarian’s promote and teach this. This is their world. You ask any die-hard trinitarian for one wish, they’d probably wish that the entire world all became Trinitarian Christian’s, give up their cultures and worship the same exact way. They don’t believe in a rainbow as a sign of God’s covenant. At least theirs is a one-colored bow with no rain. A rainless bow. A bow with no arrow. Whatever.
The ONE God in the Bible and HIS man Messiah wants a “one world church” through channels of gentleness, kindness, peace, respect, unity and love. And he will judge the way he told us to judge. “To tell a tree by it’s fruit”. And GOD will exalt HIM. Since we are the body of Messiah, Joint Heirs with him, our reward is to be exalted by God in the same way. This Messiah wants to slay all the spiritual wrong in the world by using the word of truth. Love.
David
You said, “I agree with it to the point that it vibes with what you and I believe, that salvation (a gift of God’s grace) is granted to all peoples. The cross was for all people, and the obligation is to live by faith to the word/message of God and produce fruit.”
I completely agree with you. I do agree with a lot of what Bishop Pearson was saying as well, but I just couldn’t agree with what appeared to be his main thesis, about God planning to save all of his creation in the end.
You also said, “It is then logical then that the end goal of our faith is obedience to Christ’s message. Because that is faith in love, and God -IS- Love.”
Again I completely agree with you. That is Yeshua’s/Jesus’ most important teaching.
You also said, “I’ve never understood this triunity thing.”
I also have never understood it. I had heard of the trinity in church as a young boy, but like most Christians, I never really gave it much thought. Like you, it was when I actually began to study the scriptures myself, that I actually realized that God was one person and his son Yeshua/Jesus was a completely different person.
My best friend (who is a Trinitarian) says he also believes Jesus and God are two separate individuals. But he still somehow believes in the trinity. I really have a hard time understanding how he can reconcile these two things.
You also said, “This Messiah (the true one) wants to slay all the spiritual wrong in the world by using the word of truth. Love.”
I love the way you said that. I couldn’t have worded that any better…
Robert
I agree with what you said as well…