20 Reasons Why the Trinity Is Unbiblical (4)
August 12th, 2010 by Guest Author
by Chuck LaMattina of Grace Ministry International.
4.The Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles Paul, Peter and John identify the Father as the only true God.
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” The Lord Jesus Christ in John 17:3
“Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” The Lord Jesus Christ in John 20:17
“yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. However, there is not in everyone that knowledge.” The apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:6, 7
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” The apostle Peter in 1 Peter 1:3
“Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” The apostle John in 2 John 3
Hi
these scriptures certainly establish that God and Jesus are not one and the same but rather emphasize that God and Jesus are different “persons”!
Trinitarians will always argue that, of course, the Father and the Son are different persons, but then continue with the claim that they both are God. Thus they ignore what these verses plainly teach, namely, that only the Father is God!
According to these scriptures, Jesus is not only not the Father, but he is NOT God!
What are we to make of a prophet who gives a word from the Lord
and within the word given, Jesus tells us that he is the Almighty, that he is God?
Is it a false prophet giving a false prophecy, or is there a sense in which Jesus is all that God is, and that it is not robbery for him to be equal with God?
to be consistent, one would have to make of such a situation that a false (self-appointed) prophet is speaking or – if a true prophet is speaking – he/she is in error regarding the message and is speaking something of his/her own imagination.
Even if “in a sense Jesus is all that God is”, he could not and would not be speaking claiming that he is the Almighty or that he is God.
Wolfgang
You said, “Even if ‘in a sense Jesus is all that God is’, he could not and would not be speaking claiming that he is the Almighty or that he is God.”
I agree completely. Jesus was always humbling himself in relation to his father (God Almighty) and would always put God’s will first ahead of his own will.
At least that’s the way I see it anywaze…
Wolfgang,
I trust that Jesus has and will in the future be found breaking your doctrine that says he would not and could not communicate himself as being equal with God. It’s not robbery for him to do so.
In righteousness he is equal to God.
In justice his judgment is as good as the Fathers.
His peace surpasses our understanding just as much as the scriptures testify about the peace of God. (Phil 4:7)
Let’s remember that he is the Lord of the word he gives and it means what he means by it.
Thomas,
I believe it’s the will of God that we see Jesus as God is. (as he is)
Ray,
you wrote
Please note, what you claim to be my doctrine is NOT what I had written. A more careful reading of what I wrote without reading into it what you may have had in mind would be appreciated.
Wolfgang,
I hear you are doing a One God Conference in Germany. Is that true?
Wolfgang,
If I have misrepresented your view, please explain. Please make it clear to us.
Sean
http://bibelcenter.de/promo/buzzard-konferenz2010.php
Wolfgang,
Is it possible that a believer might be inspired by the holy spirit to give a word that might contain such language as this: “…I am the Almighty God, the Father of the word, which was sent into this world…” which refers to Jesus?
Is it possible that the Lord Jesus could move someone to give such a thing by the holy spirit, or would it be a violation of the scriptures?
I remember how it was the Lord who showed Peter some things to kill and eat, and to Peter such things at the time were to him unclean. (Acts 10:13)
In my Bible there are some words in red letters in both Acts 10:13 and in Acts 10:15.
If you have a One God conference coming up, please deal with this question if you are able. It might even come up in the conference.
Ray,
I am not sure how to explain further what I wrote … I did NOT write or communicate a doctrine which says that Jesus would not or could not communicate himself as being equal with God!
I did write this
which is NOT what you apparently have made of it
Sean,
someone else initiated to try and have a conference w/ A. Buzzard in Germany to provide an opportunity for believers of a unitarian belief to meet. They asked me if I would perhaps help with the organization seeing that I was one of longest heard voices about God being One in the German speaking countries … and thus far it looks like the conference will be held right in the little village where we live and I will likely do most of the organizational work as well
Wolfgang,
You seem to me to be contradicting yourself in #11. I know of no other way to judge it rightly. If I am wrong in this, please show me my error.
Ray, to answer you question more directly:
The official answer is this:
Gal. 1:8, 9 “However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed. As we have said above, I also now say again, Whever it is that is declaring to ou as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed.”
So, is it possible that the Faithful and True Witness himself would inspire someone to utter a confession contrary to Gospel truth? According to the above, it is as impossible as it is for God to lie! (Tit. 1:12)
You got your answer.
Jaco
Ray
I have to agree with Jaco. God’s first commandment is “You shall have no other God’s before me.” (ESV) If Jesus claimed that he himself were Almighty God, this would clearly violate the first commandment. Yeshua/Jesus would not and could not violate the first of the ten commandments.
At least that’s the way I see it anywaze…
Sorry, the reference in Titus should be 1:2, not 1:12 (typo).
Cheers
Wolfgang,
Please email me the details including
location, date, times, speakers, and a short paragraph explaining the purpose of the conference and I’ll post that on this blog as well as advertise it on christianmonotheism.com (actually, maybe you could give me this in both English and German)
~sean
Sean,
there are no real “details” available as of yet (and most likely not until the conference starts … except the location and the dates and main speaker (Warmsroth, Oct 29-31, A. Buzzard). As for the purpose, I suppose Mr. Buzzard happens to be in Europe traveling and an acquaintance of his (Mr. Bartl from Austria) wanted to see if we could arrange for a “conference” / “weekend advance” for mainly German speaking believers who hold to a unitarian belief etc. to provide an opportunity for them to meet A. Buzzard (since most have read his book) and to meet each other.
Currently the info has meeting times as Fri evening, Sat and Sun morning, afternoon and evening … but nothing has been set whether A. Buzzard is doing teachings each time, or if there will be some other kind of sharing of experiences, or time for individuals to sit and talk and “hook up” for further communication after the weekend, etc …. all is “flexible” and “subject to change”.
I actually would prefer if there was less hype and propaganda about it and more “personal invites”, etc. I suppose I am no longer into numbers and being able to later advertise that there were “so and so many” and “WOW … it was a great time” and “wow whatever more wow and stuff” … if 3 people came would be just as good as if 300 showed up … actually 3 with a real interest and concern would most likely be better than 297 more who are mainly interested in “be part of it” or “meet so and so”, etc …
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Thomas,
In your opinion, did Jesus violate the commandment you bring up (post # 15) when he said, “He that has seen me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)
If in your opinion he did not, then why not?
Ray
In answer to your question above, Jesus like David was a man after God’s own heart. Paul speaking to the Jews in the synagogue at Antioch in Acts 13:22 says, “And when he had removed him (Saul), he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, ‘I have found in David the son of Jesse a man AFTER MY OWN HEART, who will do my will.’ …”
So David was not only a man after God’s own heart but he was also willing to do God’s will. So, in a way, meeting David would have been like meeting God (in person). Now Jesus was also a man after God’s own heart and was also willing to do God’s will, but in a addition to this, he was without sin, and was the promised Messiah (something David wasn’t).
So meeting Jesus (or seeing Jesus) would have been the closest thing you could possibly get to meeting (or seeing) God in the flesh. When Jesus said, “He that has seen me has seen the Father”, he wasn’t saying that HE WAS the Father. That is something Trinitarians would say.
If you believe Jesus was actually his own father than of course you WOULD read this verse here as Jesus saying, “Yes, I am the Father!” Sorry, but I don’t think anyone on this site, (including me) would agree with you that this is what Yeshua/Jesus is actually saying in this verse…
Wolfgang
As far as I know Anthony [my father-in-law] is going to Europe for the purpose of this conference. Instigated by Werner since the German trans of Anthony’s Doctrine of the Trinity book made its way across Europe. Which, thank God, had an amazing response from copies sold and people contacting us.
Ray,
I would also have to seriously disagree with the idea here that I’m seeing in the back/forth going on that “Jesus is God”. I can tell you right now that Jesus will not ever say that he is god. He will say that he is “one” with God, that is of one mind, will, purpose, with the authority of God. Jesus also said in scripture that we are to be one with the father the same as he is! Jesus is not God, he is the “perfect” embodiment of all that is God in human form. Characteristically he is the same, he has the same authority, has been given the name above all names, his words are the same… BUT he’s still human, and god is NOT human. To worship Jesus as God, is to worship a drop of water as if it were the entire ocean. It doesn’t matter how perfectly that drop of water represents the ocean, it is not the ocean! Jesus is not God. He is “one” with God, equal in terms of character, will, authority, emotion, mind, purpose. He has “spiritual equivalence of form”, but he is not God Himself, he still has a God he prays to, which is our God. (YHVH)
There are two standards by which the Bible interprets itself, and these are found in scripture:
1. “By two or three witnesses let every word be established” – (Matt. 18:16, 2Cor. 13:1, Deut. 17:6, 19:15, 1Tim. 5:19, and Heb. 10:28)
Both old and new testaments use the above principle to distinguish between what is truth and what is error. The bible can interpret it’s self in this manner, as shown in the passages above.
2) Precept must be upon precept, line upon line (Isa. 28:10)
This principal is used to figure out what doctrines are false, and what doctrines are true. This keeps people from taking a snippet here, a snippet there, and proof-texting themselves into a new theology. Usually these theologies seems to be sound but the problem is that there is a weight of scriptures against them. Example: A handful of passages are interpreted to say Jesus is God. And an equal handful are interpreted that Jesus cannot be God.
In the event that this happens, then the interpretation must be checked upon other precepts, already established within the whole of scripture itself. That is to check it against what has already been established: “God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent … ” (Num. 23:19; cf. 1 Sam. 15:29), “I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.” (Hosea 11:9)
Not only is it to be checked against what is already established, it should be checked against the overall picture of the bible in general.
Thirdly, it has to be interpreted in it’s historical and cultural backdrop. There is NO true hebrew or Jew alive who knows his/her scripture that would ever say a Man could become God. Scripture is CLEAR on this. The idea of a man-god is completely pagan in origin. Constantine’s world was steeped in pagan witchcraft and idolatry. So many of the greek gods were demi-gods, born by virgin birth. This is a pagan concept, this is not a hebrew concept that has ever been held historically. It is no wonder this demi-god concept arose when the Romans got their hands on the Hebrew scriptures. “Oh, it says here virgin birth, begotten of God. Gee, that sounds just like one of our myths so it must be the same…”
An additional problem with Jesus being God Himself, or being a second God in a triune Godhead is that it raises cause for the worship (LeHishtachavot) AND service (La’avod) of something Created. Instead of worshiping and serving God only (Lo La’avod Elohim Acheirim! Don’t serve other gods), one is worshiping a second God instead of God. This is removing God from the throne and exalting Jesus higher than he had been exalted by God in the first place. Jesus was to sit at the right hand of god, in a throne along side, given dominion over the entire earth. He was not to be exalted in the temple to the status of God, sitting on God’s own throne, exalted higher than anything called God. (2 Thess 2:4)
That is an extremely dangerous thing to do… to portray Messiah, as anything more (or anything less) than he his. When a different portrayal of Messiah is given, and offered in the place of the true biblical Messiah we then have a replacement Messiah.
Furthermore, when we take God who is ONE, absolute and eternal (as according to scripture) and turn Him into three, he can no longer be absolutely one. He cannot be absolutely supreme anymore, as it is now shared amongst two others. One is now reduced to three. Scarily enough, this is not only a replacement Messiah scenario, but now it is a replacement God scenario.
The ONLY creation in the bible created to be just one notch below God, yet above the holy angels: That is Mankind, with Jesus leading us at the head. Thus three less-than-god entities making up a God is… well… three people. The trinity is nothing more than “God made in man’s image.” Three images actually. Man’s number is six… You can do the rest of the math.
Xavier,
thanks for the note …. I thought I had heard or read something about A. Buzzard going to some other places as well in Europe, thus I had a slightly different impression. We are certainly looking forward to the time together!
Wolfgang
Hope to see you there myself…
David,
It seems to me that by saying he is God, Jesus may be saying that he and the Father are one. Therefore we can not tell what he might say, or how he will say it.
There are more than a few ways to say a thing in the kingdom of heaven.
I’ve heard that the scriptures were purposely written in such a way that one must have the holy spirit and his leading to interpret
them.
I believe Jesus is more to God than a drop of water is to an ocean.
I trust that Jesus is God at least as much as his followers are the light of this world, or even the salt of the earth.
I suppose we could try to maintain that no follower of Jesus will be found sitting on a shelf in a supermaket next to the sugar and pepper, and be sold for pennies a pound. Neither will they be found to consist in tiny white granules.
Thomas,
It seems to me that Jesus was saying that he is the Father, (John 14:9) in the sense that you explain in post 20.
Ray
In John 14:7 Yeshua/Jesus says to Phillip, “If you had known me, you would have known ‘MY’ Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Notice Yeshua/Jesus refers to Almighty God as “MY Father”. If Yeshua/Jesus is saying Almighty God is ‘HIS’ Father. Then, how can Yeshua/Jesus be saying that he is also the Father???
There might be about a billion or so Trinitarians that agree with you, but it still doesn’t take away from the fact that what you are saying doesn’t make any sense whatsoever…
Thomas,
I believe the answer to your question is in the fact that Jesus and the Father are one, in that sense Jesus is God. In that sense, to see Jesus is to see God.
Ray
I agree that in a sense Yeshua/Jesus and God are one, just like in a sense King David and God were one. Yeshua/Jesus is similar to God in many ways and according to the scriptures Yeshua/Jesus was even granted all authority in heaven and on earth. But that doesn’t mean Yeshua/Jesus was his own Father or is his own Father.
Imagine if I had twin brother and I told you that he was a man after my own heart and that we had the same basic personality, and then I went on to say that, “If you know me, than you also know my brother as well.” Would you automatically think that my twin brother and I were one and the same person???
Of course not! So why do people think this about Yeshua/Jesus and HIS Father???
The clearest understanding of how Jesus and God are “one” is in the same Gospel of John, when Jesus prayed that “all may be one as You and I are one” (talking to God). Also in marriage the Bible says that the two shall become one flesh. Obviously this means one in purpose, one in heart, not one single being.
Mark C.
And of course, lets not forget that if there is a mystery to this, it is this union of “the church with Christ” in God.
Mark C
Thank you for helping me try to explain to Ray what it is I believe. Sometimes I just can’t seem to find the right words to express what it is I am feeling and thinking…
Ray
I agree that in a sense, Jesus is God and that in a sense, to see Jesus is to see God, but like Mark C said, I just wanted to make it clear to you that I believe Yeshua/Jesus and his Father are not one single being…
Isn’t it like marriage where two become one flesh? He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (I Cor 6:17)
Ray
Yes. I think it is like a marriage where two become one flesh.
1 Cor 6:16-17 says, “…..For, as it is written, ‘The two will become one flesh.’ But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.”
I try me best to be joined to the Lord Jesus and strongly desire to be one spirit with him. But that doesn’t make me the Lord Jesus. I believe Yeshua/Jesus also joins himself with us as well. If you look at the story told in Mathew 25:34-46 you will notice Yeshua/Jesus says, “Truly, I say to you, as you did to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”
It appears Yeshua/Jesus ‘IS’ joined with us, in spirit, especially it seems, to the poor and downtrodden, who he calls, “the least of these my brothers.” At least that is how it appears to me anywaze…
When the Lord Jesus said the only true God He wasn’t denying that He was God but was saying this in opposition to the Father being the only true God in relation to false gods. The “true God” is always used elsewhere in Scripture is used as such (2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10, 11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9 and 1 John 5:20, 21).
Jude 1:4 teaches that the Christian has only one Master in heaven. The Christian’s only Master in this regard refers to the Father (Acts 4:24) and to the Son (2 Peter 2:1).
a. NIDNTT: in Jn. 17:3, monos is linked with alethinos, true, in contrast to the deceptive appearance (pseudos) of all alleged gods and revealers (2:724, One – K.H. Bartels).
b. Thayer: “ton theon, the one, true God, in contrast with the polytheism of the Gentiles” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, ginwskw, page 117).
C. Trench: But He is ἀληθινός (1 Thess. 1:9; John 17:3; Isai. 65:16; == ‘verus’), very God, as distinguished from idols and all other false gods, the dreams of the diseased fancy of man, with no substantial existence in the world of realities (Richard C. Trench, alethes, alethinos, #8) http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/trench/section.cfm?sectionID=8
D. Vine: John 7:28; 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 6:10; these declare that God fulfils the meaning of His Name, He is “very God,” in distinction from all other gods, false gods (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, True, page 1170).
E. NIDOTTE – Asa demonstrated unquestionable religious zeal, even to the point of removing his own (grand)mother (cf. 1 Kgs 15:2, 10) Maacah from her place (15:3) – no easy feat, to be sure, given the idolatrous tendencies his father had (15:3) (NIDOTTE 4:413, Asa – Daniel Schibler).
Jude 1:4 teaches that the Christian has only one Master in heaven. The Christian’s only Master in this regard refers to the Father (Acts 4:24) and to the Son (2 Peter 2:1).
Marc
I admire your courage but I probably will not be the only one blocking you at every turn here.
1. Several lexicons were cited that prove the Unitarians appeal to this passage is in error.
2. Every other time the “true God” is used in the Bible it ALWAYS refers to God in distinction from false gods/ idols.
Unitarians love to cite this pasage but unfortuantely for them it doesn’t teach what they so desperately hope.
In fact, Jude 1:4 teaches that there is ONE Master in heaven for the Christian.
Who does this one Master refer to..is it the Father (Acts 4:24) or is it the Son (2 Peter 2:1)?
No problem for the Trinitarian because the Father and the Son are ontologically one Being but for the Unitarian there is a serious problem because the Bible teaches there is only one Master in heaven for the Christian but the Unitarians have two. That is polytheism.
Marc Taylor,
That is because there are no “other” true Gods besides the Father, the God of Jesus (John 17:20), and explained to us by Paul in 1 Tim 2:5.
Joseph,
Zero passages presented where the “true God” is elsewhere used to back up your assertion.
AND
A total of zero lexicons cited.
Marc,
I’m not talking about that, answer my argument above. If Jesus has a God, that God must be the only true God. Now prove that what Jesus and Paul said is false.
Marc
Jesus [John 17.1, 3] and Saul [1Cor 8.6] both testify that “the only true God” is “the Father”!
It’s true that in the context of John 17:1, the only true God is the Father of Jesus Christ. It’s also true that in the context of I Cor 8, that there is only one God.
It’s also true that Jesus and God together are one Lord and one God. (See Genesis- Revelation)
These are not contradictory statements. They are simply said differently.
Who are we to think that we may put a brother under our own rule?
Do some people think it to be their God ordained calling? If I may say so, I think they are missing their calling.
Ray,
You asked, “Who are we to think that we may put a brother under our own rule?”
I don’t think that anyone is trying to put a brother under their own rule. We are just pointing out the “false claims” that Marc keeps repeating. In the “Who you gonna call?” thread in msg. #41 Marc made the following ‘false claim’, “DT, There is no Scripture that explicitly states that ‘The Lord Jesus is not God’.”
In msg. #52 of the same thread I provided “FIVE” scriptures that explicitly stated that “The Lord Jesus is not God”. I ended the message with the following question, “Please show me “ONE” verse that explicitly states that “the Lord Jesus is God”. He of course refused to produce “ANY” verse that explicitly states that “the Lord Jesus is God”.
In msg. #54 of the “Who you gonna call?” thread Marc actually said, “I am not going to bother refuting all of your heresy here”. So it seems he thinks he can just call my beliefs heresies and then refuse to answer questions that I might ask of him. Yet he goes on and on about how Unitarians are evasive. According to him, he doesn’t have to respond to our questions, but we must respond to all of his questions.
In msg. #123, msg. #128, msg. #139, and msg. #173 of this same thread I asked Marc the following question; “How can you possibly explain away Luke 2:52. After all, if Jesus is God (as you claim), Then, “How can God possibly increase in stature and in favor with God???” He of course continues to refuse to answer this very simple question.
In the “20 Reasons Why the Trinity Is Unbiblical (1)” thread Marc made the following “false claim” in msg. #3, “Please supply any Scripture that NECESITATES God can not be a multi-Personal Being. Let me help you….there are none.” In msg. #4 I provided “SEVENTEEN” verses that stated that God was not a multi-Personal Being but “ONE” being. I then ended the message with a very simple request;
“Now please show me just “ONE” verse that states that God is a multi-Personal Being…”
He of course, like usual, ignores my requests and ignores my questions. While at the same time making the “false claim” that we Unitarians are evasive. The way I see it, we should always point out “false claims” when we see them. That is all I have been doing. I am not trying to put a brother under my own rule. I’m just trying to point out the “false claims” that are being made by our brother.
If we don’t point out these “false claims”, then Marc may lead other brothers astray…
I think Marc’s most wildest comments so far is that the Trinity God has the ability to transfer omniscience to get around the argument that Jesus did not know the hour, and that the Son only knew his name in Revelation. Of course we never received any clear answer as to how this transfer of all-knowing power works and if it can be transferred between only one person of the Godhead at a time? I asked that since Jesus had the holy spirit in him, then that would mean perhaps two persons of the Trinity would have to have transferred their omniscience at the same time.
Then Marc will say, to defend his new rule he has instilled on the nature of God, that we as humans can’t fully understand God. Which is a hypocritical statement in itself, unless Marc is not a man.
There are those who seem to think to account it a sin if ever a man should refer to Christ as God by a comparison, and to try to put a man under a rule that says he must always at all times be called the Son of God instead, or the Christ instead, or saviour, Lord, or some other such thing, but never to be referred to as God in any way.
In that sense it seems to me that some men want to put a brother under their rules. They tend to go about this in a manner similar to how the Pharisees of Jesus’ day treated the Sabbath.
In that sense they resemble modern day Pharisees. It’s not the ministry of reconciliation and it’s not the gospel.
Ray,
You said, “There are those who seem to think to account it a sin if ever a man should refer to Christ as God by a comparison.”
I have no problem with someone comparing Christ to God as they are similar in so many different ways. But, like I have pointed out to you before when most people say that “Christ is God”, or “Christ is a God”, or call Christ God, they are not comparing Christ to God. They are instead making a straightforward statement of fact that “Christ is God”. Of course there is no scripture that says, “Christ is God”, or “Christ is a God”, etc…
I know when you say “Christ is God” that you mean to refer to Christ as God by comparison. But, as far as I know, no other person who does this means to refer to Christ as God by comparison. They actually mean what they say, and that is that “Christ is God”. In other words they are saying Christ is “God the Son” a God-man who walked among us on the earth…
Joseph you are ignoring the evidence I have supplied. Thus far you have cited:
Zero passages from any other text where the “true God” means something different than God being contrasted with false gods.
Zero passages from any Greek lexicons.
Zero plus zero equals…….zero.
———————————-
And of course the Unitarians ignored this:
Jude 1:4 teaches that the Christian has only one Master in heaven. The Christian’s only Master in this regard refers to the Father (Acts 4:24) and to the Son (2 Peter 2:1).
QUESTION FOR THE UNITARIANS:
Who is your ONLY Master in heaven?
I have never been able to understand how full-grown intelligent man can believe that a man is God, even one who is the Christ and Son of God. I think that they are taught this when a child, that it is not natural to come to this belief on ones own. Ask a small child if he thinks God is three persons in one, he would never come up with this on his own.
Marc
Just because scripture AT TIMES applies to Jesus titles that would apply to YHWH does not make Jesus God anymore than Nebuchadrezzar or Artaxerxes just because they are both called “King of kings, Lord of lords” in the OT.
Do you even realize that according to Ps 110.1 we are dealing with 2 Lords throughout the scriptures? The LORD God and the lord Messiah.
Xavier,
Artaxerxes/Nebuchadnezzar were not king of all other kings in that they ruled all other kings of the entire earth. Christ however equally rules with God in all of heaven. Nebuchadnezzar was not “supreme” in that regards.
Who is your only Master in heaven?
Marc,
Jesus hand over the Kingdom to God after God gave him authority to put it under his feet.
Who is your God??
Joseph,
The Triune God.
Don’t confuse functional subjection to ontological inferiority.
———————————
Lord of lords
Referring to the Lord Jesus the TDNT reads:
In His divine equality He is KYPIOE KYPIWN (Rev. 19:16) (5:273, onoma – Bietenhard).
Here’s a question that I would like answered:
During the time of Revelation 17-19 refers to who is the “Lord of lords” in heaven?
Marc
The titles “King of kings, Lord of lords” can only denote supremacy. Maybe you should look up the terms.
Our ultimate Master is God the Father of course Who has MADE the Messiah master as well. Just like the example above where pagan kings were made “master” to all other earthly potentates.
Xavier,
I cited the TDNT while you cite…your opinion. Good job.
We are talking about in heaven Xavier. The same Greek word for Master is applied to the Lord Jesus and the Father and yet the Bible teaches there is ONLY ONE Master.
Marc
Oh, I didn’t know we were down to quoting biblical scholars…
I cited the TDNT above and you ignored it…as usaul.
“The regular New Testament usage” does not necessitate EVERY TIME.
Thanks for admitting that you have two Masters in heaven when the Bible teaches only one.
Marc
I answered it with another of their quotes and your ignoring that!
Okay give me scripture where God is defined as “the Father, Son & HS”?
How many Masters do you have in heaven?
Xavier,
I cited it first so you respond to it first.
I have one Master in heaven……the Triune God. One Master is what the Bible teaches but you have more than that. By the way that contradicts the Bible.