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Last week, a number of us produced the following video. Thanks to Matt and Blake of Plasma Productions, and Nathan for his last-minute willingness to jump in and read the script, this eight minute video is now on youtube and gathering steam. Please link to it or embed it on your own website. It lays out in plain language five big reasons why the Trinity doesn’t make sense.

check out christianmonotheism.com/questions

the challenge

Will you ask these five questions of your pastor or trusted Christian expert? Most people just believe in the Trinity because that is how they were raised. Tradition has been passed down from generation to generation and no one seems to be asking whether or not this doctrine is biblical. If you care about this subject, if this is important to you, if you want to know who God really is, then you owe it to yourself to wrestle with these questions.

the expected response

Time after time when we engage in conversation with other Christians about these issues we are brushed off with appeals to our human limitations. They tell us that the Trinity is a mystery that we just have to accept by faith. We are cautioned that we are not capable of understanding God. Though there is some truth in this type of sentiment, we still consider such appeals to incomprehensibility as cheating. I mean, let’s just reverse our positions for a moment. You be the Unitarian and I’ll be the Trinitarian. You try to convince me that my beliefs are unbiblical, anachronistic, and illogical. You make some solid arguments and rather than listening and really considering what you are saying I say, “Well, I hear what you are saying, but really, you just need to accept that this is a mystery that you cannot understand; you just have to believe it.” If I pulled that on you, wouldn’t you feel like that was dirty? Yet, this is what happens over and again. We have to be willing to change our beliefs if they are wrong. May God help us!

12 Responses to “Why the Trinity Doctrine Doesn’t Make Sense: Five Reasons”

  1. on 25 Aug 2010 at 3:29 pmRay

    Is Jesus a triune God?

  2. on 25 Aug 2010 at 7:21 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray
    I believe God created both his son Yeshua/Jesus and the angels. Do you agree that God (the Father) at some point in time created (begotten) his son (the Messiah) Yeshua/Jesus???

  3. on 26 Aug 2010 at 7:40 pmRay

    Thomas,
    I believe Jesus was always with God from everlasting (see Micah 5:2) and that he was dwelling in God also at such times. His ‘goings forth’ which Micah speaks of could be viewed as a ‘birth’
    in some sense of the word, in my opinion.

    One of the uses of the word ‘born’ from my dictionary, speaks of ‘brought into being’.

    This sense of the meaning of the word ‘born’ reminds me of Proverbs 8.

    Jesus being with God from everlasting was no doubt taught and raised by God, thus this relationship being what it was, was one of sonship. We should be able to see sonship by that simple fact alone, though there is more than that going on about sonship, for
    the angels of God were no doubt taught by God and ‘raised’ in some sense of that word, and therefore can be be called the sons of God by the same token as we have seen concerning Jesus.

    However there is a greater sense of Jesus being the Son of God than with any of the angels, as we can see from several scripture
    verses on that subject, Psalm 8:4 for example. I trust that the words ‘the son of man’ in Psalm 8:4 may certainly apply to Jesus who is often referred to in scripture as the Son of man.

    I don’t want to say that Jesus was created by God at some place in time, for I’m not sure how that would fit with Micah 5:2. I don’t recall any scripture verses that tell us that there was a time before the world was made when God ‘created’ Jesus his Son. Therefore I don’t want to confess that, or be found to be a teacher of that as a doctrine. I would rather stay within the confines of Micah 5:2. That’s where I feel safe.

    I do see a sense in which Jesus is a triune God. I believe a man may talk of Jesus that way, for Jesus is himself, he dwelt and dwells in God and the spirit of God in him, all together as one.
    I trust that could be called triune.

    Though there is one God, I do not believe it always to be wrong when a man calls Jesus a God, or my God.

    I saw how Thomas said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God.” I see no reason for me to act like some kind of idiot and blow a whistle as if to make some kind of citizen’s arrest on Thomas and say that he was wrong for so doing.

    If I allow Thomas to do so (as I believe I should) should it be so strange if I allow others to walk in the same liberty?

    This is not to say I am in favor of everyone making some kind of doctrine about two Gods, that Jesus was one and God is the other
    and act as it should be a formal fact that all must strictly adhere to in order to be considered a Christian, though at times I might be found saying such a thing as “David had two Lords”, if I want to let someone know that I see a distinction between Jesus and God and also show how the Lordship of Jesus is not in conflict with God being Lord over all.

    I hope this gives you a clearer understanding of my ‘take’ on this subject.

  4. on 26 Aug 2010 at 9:08 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray
    You said, “His ‘goings forth’ which Micah speaks of could be viewed as a ‘birth’ in some sense of the word, in my opinion.”

    I agree that at some point in time Yeshua/Jesus was born (begotten) that’s why I don’t understand your insistence that Yeshua/Jesus is also one and the same person as God (the Father). Can’t you see that Yeshua/Jesus is a unique and separate being/person from the Father???

    You also said, “I trust that the words ‘son of man’ in Psalm 8:4 may certainly apply to Jesus who is often referred to in scripture as the Son of man.”

    Let’s look at the whole verse. Psalm 8:3-5, “When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.”

    The son of man in these verses is said to be a little lower than the heavenly beings (angels) therefore I do not believe it is referring to Yeshua/Jesus who is Lord of lords and who is now above the angels (in rank and position). The answer to the above question, “What is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him?” is that we are all God’s children, made in God’s image and likeness.

    That is why God is mindful of us and cares for us. At least in my humble opinion.

    You also said, “I don’t want to say that Jesus was created by God at some place and time, for I’m not sure how that would fit with Micah 5:2. I don’t recall any scripture verses that tell us there was a time before the world was made that God ‘created’ Jesus his son.”

    The fact that Yeshua/Jesus was born/begotten tells us there must have been a time that he did not exist. As for Micah 5:2, “But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.”

    I am not an expert or a scholar but the way I interpret this is that Yeshua/Jeus was foretold from of old, from ancient days. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable on this subject than myself might correct me on this. But that is the way it appears to me.

    You also said, “I do see a sense in which Jesus is a triune God. I believe a man may talk of Jesus that way, for Jesus is himself, he dwells in God and the spirit of God is in him, all together as one. I trust that could be called triune.”

    The true followers of God dwell in God and the spirit of God is in us as well. Peter and the Apostles and other early Christians dwelt in God and the spirit of God was in them as well. Are all these many people equal to or the same as God??? Of course not!!!

    You also said, “If I allow Thomas to do so (as I believe I should) should it be so strange that I should allow others to walk in the same liberty?”

    I believe as God’s representative Yeshua/Jesus is entitled to be addressed as God. After all God is not a name it is a title. But did you ever notice Yeshua/Jesus is never referred to as Yahovah/Jehovah (God’s proper name)???

    I also allow others to walk in liberty. But, part of that liberty entitles me to tell them that I disagree with them if they believe that Yeshua/Jesus and his (and our) Father are one and the same being/person.

    You also said, “if I want to let someone know that I see a distinction between Jesus and God and also show how the Lordship of Jesus is not in conflict with God being Lord over all.“

    I`m glad you see a distinction between Jesus and God. And I believe the reason there is no conflict between the Lordship of Jesus and with God being Lord over all is because God gave his Son Jesus all power and authority and made Jesus Lord of lords.

    Thanks for explaining your `take`on this subject. I hope this also gives you a clearer understanding of my `take` on this subject…

  5. on 26 Aug 2010 at 10:29 pmrobert

    Thomas
    Actually this translation of Micah 5:2 matches the hebrew,greek and aramic. also this verse is not speaking of a town, Its speaking of the righteous branch of Jesse, the lineage of David to Jesus through Nathan

    Micah 5
    2And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you are little among the thousands of clans of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth a ruler to govern Israel; whose coming have been predicted from of old days.

  6. on 26 Aug 2010 at 10:55 pmDoubting Thomas

    Robert
    Thank you for correcting me. Am I wrong though for saying, “the way I interpret this is that Yeshua/Jesus was foretold from of old, from ancient days???”

  7. on 26 Aug 2010 at 11:01 pmrobert

    Thomas
    No, your right on
    You done well to see the true context of this verse.

  8. on 27 Aug 2010 at 5:27 pmDoubting Thomas

    Robert
    I like your translation of Micah 5:2, “…….whose coming have been predicted from of old days.” It seems very clear and unambiguous.

    My translation (ESV) says, “……whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.” Which can easily be misinterpreted to mean that Yeshua/Jesus himself is from of old, from ancient days. And therefore he may not have actually been born in Bethlehem (but pre-existed somehow).

    I’m just curious. Which translation did you use for the above verse???

  9. on 27 Aug 2010 at 10:15 pmrobert

    Thomas
    I translated that from studying the words used in this verse in the hebrew.greek and aramic looking at every possibilty of possible words within each language.
    Eternity, or from everlasting, goings forth are complete impossibilties becuse of the future tense of subject.

    This verse is just stating Jesus would come through a certain bloodline that existed when it was spoke and this pure bloodline is the offspring mentioned in Genesis 3 in the future prediction of the offspring oF Adam & Eve would crush the offspring of satan and THE SEED mentioned in the Spiritual blessing promised to Abraham.

    Here is another translation i found

    Micah 5:2, “You Bethlehem in Ephrathah, small as you are to be among Judah’s clans, out of you shall come forth a governor for Israel, one whose roots are far back in the past, in days gone by.”

  10. on 27 Aug 2010 at 10:17 pmAngela

    https://files.me.com/joneschuck/s1w2wc.wav

    Not sure if this link will work or not (you might try copying & pasting it into your browser), but this is an audio recording of a sermon I listened to recently, by Pastor Chuck Jones, on Micah 5:2. You might find it interesting & helpful. I think the link expires after a few months from now.

  11. on 27 Aug 2010 at 10:46 pmRay

    Thomas, (#4)
    I don’t remember insisiting that Jesus is one and the same person as God, but I do recall that I spoke of him as being one and that his character is the same as God’s.

    I do see that Jesus is unique and that there is a distinction between him and God.

    I don’t remember ever seeing Jesus addressed in the scripture specifically as “Jehovah” though I have often seen him addressed as “Lord”.

    I do not believe that Jesus being as God is, necessarily means he is the same being as God, though there is a sense in which it is so,
    just as salt which is of the earth is necessarily what people are, yet there is a sense in which people may be the salt of the earth.
    (Matt 5:13)

    I hope this helps clear up your understanding of what I’ve been saying.

  12. on 27 Aug 2010 at 11:50 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray
    You said, “I don’t remember insisting that Jesus is one and the same person as God”

    I’m sorry if I misunderstood what it was you were trying to say. It just seemed to me that you kept repeating that Yeshua/Jesus and God were one.

    You also said, “I do recall I spoke of him as being one and that his character is the same as God’s.”

    I agree Yeshua/Jesus does fully and completely reflects God’s character and nature.

    You also said, “I hope this helps clear up your understanding of what I’ve been saying.”

    It does. Thank you for taking the time to explain to me exactly what it is that you have been saying. It would appear we are actually in agreement with one another. I just wanted to explain to you what I believe and why I believe it.

    Have a good weekend and God Bless…

    Angela
    Thanks for the link in msg. #10 about Micah 5:2. It was very informative and is well worth the 40 mins. or so it takes to listen to the sermon.

    Robert
    I found a couple of interesting translations of Micah 5:2 from the Net Bible.

    MSG “But you, Bethlehem, David’s country, the runt of the litter — From you will come the leader who will shepherd – rule Israel. He’ll be no upstart, no pretender. His family tree is ancient and distinguished.”

    BBE “And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days.”

    These translations seem to agree with you about Yeshua’s/Jesus’ family tree and the fact that he has been purposed (predicted) from old days.

    Have a great Sabbath…

  

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