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Should We Worship Jesus?

  

Recently I received an email (through the Christian Monotheism website) asking whether or not Biblical Unitarians should worship Jesus. The answer to this important question depends a lot on cultural assumptions and translation bias. The typical argument that people use to prove that Jesus is God goes like this:

(1) In the Bible Jesus is worshiped.
(2) The Bible says that only God should be worshiped.
(3) Therefore, Jesus must be God.

I’m sure many of you have likewise had an opportunity to wrestle with this seemingly airtight argument for Christ’s deity. Before offering a rebuttal, I would like to look first at the culture of Jesus’ time and the meaning of the word often translated worship.

A Culture of Bowing

To many of us who live in the west, bowing is not part of our social interactions. However, there are still, even today, many places in the world where bowing is an expected social protocol (including Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam). In such cultures bowing is used for greetings and farewells and also for more solemn purposes. Different types of bows are used for different purposes (with the depth of the bow indicating the degree of reverence). Apart from modern Asian culture, bowing was also a significant part of European society for centuries, especially when the monarchies held great authority.

The Bible, likewise, contains many instances of bowing. For example, Abraham bowed to the sons of Heth when they offered to give him a piece of land to bury Sarah (Gen. 23.7). David fell on his face and bowed three times before Jonathan (1 Sam. 20.41). The man who brought news of Saul’s death prostrated himself before David when he first arrived (2 Sam. 1.1). People would customarily bow before Abasalom (the king’s son) when they came to court (2 Sam. 15.5). In the time of Jesus, the custom of bowing was still alive an well. Frequently, when people approached Jesus to ask for healing they bowed before him (Mat. 8.2; 9.18; 15.25).

Jehu, king of Israel, bowing before Shalmanesar, king of Assyria from 825 BC

These people did not think he was God or even the Messiah, they just knew he was a healer or a prophet and so treated him with high respect. Lastly, there is a really fascinating example of bowing done to the saints of the church of Philadelphia by “those of the synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 3.9). Before returning to rebut the argument above for Jesus’ deity, we need to investigate further the meaning of the word translated worship.

The Meaning of Proskuneo

The Greek word in all of these instances is proskuneo (προσκυνέω). Here are two definitions from standard Greek lexicons:

Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich (BDAG):
to express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission to a high authority figure, (fall down and) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully

Liddell, Scott, and Jones (LSJ):
make obeisance to the gods or their images, fall down and worship…do reverence to…esp. of the Oriental fashion of prostrating oneself before kings and superiors…kiss…greet…wecome respectfully

In fact the word proskuneo is made up of pros (toward) and kuneo (kiss). This harks back to the custom of kissing someone’s feet or garment hem. In Europe this was a standard custom whereby subjects kissed the king’s ring when they were presented before him. The pope still maintains this tradition and it is not uncommon for visitors to kiss his ring, sometimes while bowing on one knee.

As we have seen, proskuneo is an act of respect, which can be done to anyone considered worthy from human superiors to God himself. Performing this act of bowing does not mean the receiver is a God, but that he or she is worthy of great respect. However, since God is worthy of the greatest respect, of course, one would not hesitate to bow before him. Since, the word may mean bowing in an act of worship or bowing in order to show respect, the translators’ sometimes allow their own bias to affect the translation of proskuneo

Translations and Bias

Most translations are carried out by Christians who believe Jesus is God. As a result, they usually render proskuneo as “worship” when it is done to Jesus and “bow” when it is done to humans. Consider the following examples taken from the NASB:

Mat. 4.10
Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'”

Mat. 2.8
And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.”

Rev 3.9
‘Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie– I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

In the first verse Satan tries to get Jesus to do proskuneo to him. Jesus replies that one should only do this to God. In this case the translators correctly translated it “worship” since it is the kind of proskuneo that is done to God alone. In the second instance Herod tells the Magi that he wants to come and recognize the baby Jesus as the “King of the Jews” by bowing before him. However, the translators, overcome by their bias that Jesus is God (even as a baby!), rendered the word as “worship.” In the third instance, again the same word proskuneo is used, but this time, since the Christians are receiving proskuneo, the translators used the words “bow down” rather than “worship.”

Resolving the Conundrum

I began with the following argument for Jesus’ deity:

(1) In the Bible Jesus is worshiped.
(2) The Bible says that only God should be worshiped.
(3) Therefore, Jesus must be God.

However, we can now augment this proof with the new information we have just discussed:

(1) Jesus is God
(2) When proskuneo is done to Jesus it should be translated worship
(3) In the Bible Jesus is worshiped
(4) The Bible says that only God should be worshiped.
(5) Therefore, Jesus must be God.

Now, we can clearly see the circularity of the argument. If our translations said “bow” every time someone came up asking Jesus for healing or when the disciples recognized him as the Son of God (the rightful Davidic King), there would be no issue. In other words, I am suggesting that the proposition, “In the Bible Jesus is worshiped,” is not actually true. People did not worship Jesus, they bowed before him out of respect for what he could do for them or because they recognized him as the Messiah.

As Christian monotheists we freely and with great joy bow before Jesus and do proskuneo to him, since he is the God-anointed ruler of the world to come. However, this should not be confused with the worship we render God, which is much higher since our attitude when bowing before the Father of Jesus is that he is the one true God, the only one we love and serve with everything in us (Deut. 6.4-5).

162 Responses to “Should We Worship Jesus?”

  1. on 02 Apr 2011 at 8:53 pmDoubting Thomas

    Sean,
    Thanks for another great article. As usual it is very interesting and informative…

  2. on 03 Apr 2011 at 7:38 pmRay

    Since Jesus is called the Word of God by the holy spirit, and by the holy spirit, the Word is God, I believe there are many ways in which Jesus is as God is. Therefore it is only right to worship him as we worship God, knowing and showing that we are aware of the distinction between the Father and the Son.

    Would it be wrong for us to say that in the beginning, the truth was God, that the truth of God ruled with power and authority in the beginning, and that Jesus is that same truth even as he is the Word of God?

    I think it’s OK for us to say such things and give God and Jesus the worship and praise they deserve.

    I do not believe I violate the first commanment by worshipping Jesus, if I worship him in spirit and in truth. I believe God has allowed me to do so by the liberty he has given me by his own spirit.

    It is for my salvation at times, to see Jesus as God, for he is as the Father is in so many ways. That is the truth and God has given us some understanding about this. I believe he wants us to move in that understanding he has given us by his spirit.

    We should seek to be discerning, willing to judge a thing by the spirit of God and not by the letter, for many have fallen into sin by judging things by the letter and not by the spirit of God.

    The spirit of God goes along with the law of God and does not corrupt it, misinterpret it, or pervert it in any way. The law of God is good when used lawfully.

    I remember reading about Peter who saw a vision of something like a great sheet that came down from heaven with many different creatures in it. (Acts 10)

    Now if Peter was judging the thing he saw by the letter of the law and not by the spirit of God, he might have been deceived. He might not have received the vision as being of God had he not been judging the thing rightly.

    But Peter loved God and did receive the heavenly vision which came to him.

    In my KJV the words “Rise Peter; kill, and eat.” (Acts 10:13) are in red letters.

    So did the voice come from the holy spirit of God, or Christ, or both? That’s something to think about.

  3. on 04 Apr 2011 at 7:49 amWolfgang

    @Ray,

    I suppose, you regard the Scriptures in the Bible to be the Word of God?

    If so, do you worship the Scriptures (because they are the Word of God and they would be God) ?

  4. on 04 Apr 2011 at 1:47 pmXavier

    Sean [and anyone else]

    How would you argue the following…

    Some use the text in Dan 7.14, 27 to support the view that the Son of Man figure here [embodying the nation/people of Israel itself], who the NT writers see as being the ‘person’ of Jesus, is in fact “worshiped” as God. This is based on the Greek Septuagint’s translation of the Aramaic word to “serve/worship” [palach] as latrevousa [the inflected form of latrevo for the present active participle, in the feminine gender, singular number, nominative case].

    For those not familiar with these words, here is what I found out.

    The OT uses the Aramaic palach, applied generally to Daniel’s vision [7.14, 27; cp. 6.16-17, 20-21; 3.28; 7.24; “servants” of the Jewish Temple [Ezra 7.24].

    In the Greek Septuagint palach becomes latreuo [“worship”; Cp. latreai = “service worship”, Ex 3:12; 7:16; Deu 4:28; Jdg 2:11, 13].

    This word is also used in the same context in the NT, reserved for God alone:
    • In a religious sense to worship God (Mat 4:10; Luk 1:74; 2:37; 4:8; Act 7:7; 24:14; 27:23; Rom 1:9; Phi 3:3; 2Ti 1:3; Heb 9:14; 12:28; Rev 22:3);
    • Used in an absolute sense (Act 26:7; Sept.: Deu 6:13; 10:12; Jos 24:15);
    • “worshipping creatures [other] than the Creator” (Rom 1:25; Sept.: Deu 4:28; Jdg 2:11, 13);
    • Particularly to the performing of the Levitical service (Heb 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10);
    • Of the celestial/heavenly temple (Rev 7:15)
    • To offer sacrifice, to worship (Heb 9: 9; 10:2; cf. Sept.: Ex 3:12; 7:16).

    …there is no instance of latreuein [to do religious service to] which has Christ as its object. Wainright, The Trinity in the New Testament, p 103.

    It is equally notable that [the Apostle Paul uses] the normal prayer terms (deomai, deesis)…to God and never to Christ…[He] is neither simply the content of the thanksgiving (the phrase is dia with the genitive “through”, not dia with the accusative “on account of”[cp. Col 1.16]), nor its recipient…

    Such uniformity in Paul’s usage should certainly make us hesitate before asserting that Paul ’worshipped’ Christ, since the evidence more clearly indicates otherwise. Dunn, The Theology of Paul the Apostle, p 257-260.

    A derivative of latrevo is the feminine noun thrēskeúō, to worship God, which is from thrḗskos, religious, pious, worshiping or worship.

    According to The WordStudy Dictionary, Col 2:18 mentions the worship of angels. This is probably a genitive of association and alludes to the false, Gnostic doctrine of celestial exaltation in which human worshipers were permitted to share in the worship activities of various grades of angelic beings. It also refers to the true worship of God (Act 26:5; Jam 1:26-27).

    Thrēskeía is contrasted with theosébeia, external worship, meaning reverential worship, and eusébeia, piety or godliness, and eulábeia, devotion arising from godly fear or acceptance of what God directs or permits.

    Thrēskeía may thus refer only to ceremonial service or worship as Paul refers to the religion of the Jews (Act 26:5).

    James refers to pure religion (Jam 1:26-27), indicating there is also an impure religion which would be external worship but not the practice of that which God demands of man.

  5. on 04 Apr 2011 at 6:58 pmRay

    The scriptures show the way of life. In them is life eternal.

    There’s a time to worship Jesus and a time when he will have us worship God. Jesus knows the times. He knows the season, when a thing is right.

    A man who has been given the scriptures to be his guide, should he leave them behind, will fall into many sins and great darkness,
    for the word of God is good. It’s light to lighten a path, to show man the way of God whom he can not understand but by by the spirit of God.

    The scriptures impart life and spirit to a man and help keep him in the way that is good.

    A wise man will take heed unto the scriptures. He will hold them in high regard. He will not polute their instruction, nor dishonor their fame.

    A good man will reverence the scriptures and be devoted to their instruction for they are divine in nature and keep the way of understanding.

    Holy men love the word of God. They admire it because it comes from God. They adore it because it’s a heavenly gift from the mouth of God. It contains his very breath of life and imparts life to a weary soul.

  6. on 04 Apr 2011 at 7:43 pmSean

    Ray,

    If you worship more than one person then that is polytheism and excluded by the great commandment at the core of the Torah: Hear oh Israel, Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one.

  7. on 05 Apr 2011 at 12:12 amGeorge

    Just as I was taugt to stand when a ordain reverend came in the room ,it was not because the man or vessel was agreat man but because of the word of God within the man. I love what The Christ did for me,but I love the LORD GOD with all my heart,soul,mind and strenght,and worship Him in spirit and in truth,and Him alone to the best of my ability.

  8. on 06 Apr 2011 at 10:07 pmRay

    If a man worships God and Jesus it’s because he is a Christian
    who is practicing the will of God. The charge of polytheism will not stand before the throne of God against him.

    There are no isms in heaven.

  9. on 06 Apr 2011 at 11:02 pmMatt Elton

    Great article Sean. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew word “shachah” as “proskuneo,” proving that these words mean the same thing. “Shachah” in the King James Version is sometimes translated “bow down” and sometimes translated “worship” but it is clear that it means the action of bowing to a social superior, whether God or a human authority. In Exodus 18:7 Moses “did obeisance” (KJV) or “bowed down” (NASB) to his father-in-law Jethro. When Joseph became second-in-command in Egypt, he rode out in a chariot and everyone “bowed the knee” before him (Genesis 41:43). Even King David was “worshipped” (1 Chronicles 29:20 KJV) when the people “bowed down their heads.” This obviously does not mean that people worshipped him as God, but through the action of bowing they showed him proper respect for his royalty and kingship. These are just a few of literally hundreds of examples of bowing in the Bible. Ancient Israel was not a Western culture, so we shouldn’t expect the Bible to conform to our cultural expectations. Even in some Eastern cultures today, it is proper to bow to any person who is a social equal, superior, or simply a person deserving of respect.

    When Christians in Western culture today think about bowing, they usually think of the incident with Nebuchadnezzar and the fiery furnace. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were right in refusing to bow before an idol, because God strongly condemns idolatry. But bowing before a man of authority whose authority is established by God is not idolatry. It’s a perfectly biblical practice, and it brings glory to God. David’s kingship and Joseph’s authority in Egypt were established by God, so it brought glory to God when the people bowing before these men. The same is true of the reign of Jesus, the descendant of David, as the King of kings. Before Jesus, “every knee shall bow” but it is all “to the glory of God the Father”! (Philippians 2:11)

    The biblical evidence is abundantly clear that the Greek word “proskuneo” and the Hebrew word “shachah” refer to the action of bowing the knee, even if sometimes translated “worship” by translators with preconceived Trinitarian notions. Because he is the King chosen by God, it is good to bow before Jesus Christ. But this is not the same as “worship” in the religious sense of the word. As I understand it, “thrēskeía,” as Xavier mentioned, refers to religious worship. But this word is never used in reference to Jesus.

  10. on 06 Apr 2011 at 11:50 pmXavier

    Matt

    As I understand it, “thrēskeía,” as Xavier mentioned, refers to religious worship. But this word is never used in reference to Jesus.

    But what do you make of Dan 7.14, 27?

  11. on 08 Apr 2011 at 2:19 pmSean

    Matt, Xavier,

    Theodotions Greek uses δουλεύω (doulevo) not λατρεύω (latrevo) for Dan. 7.14. Also, you may be interested in a new English translation comparing the LXX to Theodotion’s version…available here. (Also, Bibleworks has Theodotion’s version for some books…to access Daniel go to the Greek Bible (BGT) and then go to Dat 7.14 (where Dat = Daniel Theodotion’s version).

  12. on 08 Apr 2011 at 2:39 pmSean

    also…I just looked up θρησκεία (threskeia) and θρησκεύω (threskevo), which mean “religion” and “I do religion” respectively, and neither of them are ever applied to Christ. Here is the list of verses where they occur (including Apocrypha): 4 Mac 5.7, 13; Wis 11.15; 14.17, 18, 27; Acts 26.5; Col 2.18; Jam 1.26, 27. I’m not sure why this word is relevant.

  13. on 08 Apr 2011 at 3:35 pmXavier

    Sean

    Thanks for that info on Theodotions but…what does this have to do with my initial query regarding the LXX (cp. the Ralfs edition of the LXX), which ascribes latreuo to the Apocalyptic Son of Man figure of Dan 7.14, 27?

  14. on 08 Apr 2011 at 3:59 pmSean

    My point is simply that two ancient Greek translations saw the same Aramaic word “palach” and one translated it as latrevo and the other as doulevo. Furthermore, Theodotion’s translation of Dan. 7 is actually better in most places for Daniel 7…we actually just compared the two last week in Greek class. I think your real investigation should be with the Aramaic word. Can it be used of God and human superiors or is it for God alone?

  15. on 08 Apr 2011 at 4:28 pmXavier

    Can it be used of God and human superiors or is it for God alone?

    According to my findings, the Aramaic palach is consistently translated as latreuo in the book of Daniel [cp. 6.16-17, 20-21; 3.28; 7.24].

    The BDB, KB, Gesenius’, Jastrow’s and some of the Targums translate palach as “serve” or “pay reverence to”. So it seems that in general usage palach meant something like “serve/worship/minister to”, all of which in this context would be synonymous ideas. And all of which were closely related, if not specifically, to religious/divine worship of [a] Deity.

  16. on 08 Apr 2011 at 8:08 pmSean

    Xavier,

    I do not know Hebrew or Aramaic and do not even have an Aramaic dictionary. Maybe someone else…like Karl…could help us on this question. It is not enough to just look how a word is used in one book, but one should look at its full semantic range (which is what lexicons do). As for my earlier statement, my point was that the two ancient Greek versions differ on how they translate the word palach–LXX as λετρεύω and Theodotion as δουλεύω. Both are similar words meaning to serve, but the former is only used of God (to my knowledge).

  17. on 09 Apr 2011 at 1:50 amRay

    If more people worshipped Jesus, as God is to be worshipped (in spirit and in truth) more people would be healthier spiritually.

    As Christians it’s a very necessary part of our armor.

  18. on 09 Apr 2011 at 9:26 amXavier

    Sean

    It is not enough to just look how a word is used in one book, but one should look at its full semantic range (which is what lexicons do).

    I thought that’s what we’re doing.

  19. on 09 Apr 2011 at 9:30 amDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You are correct that most Christians worship Jesus/Y’shua, but that is because they believe Y’shua and God are one and the same being. They think that when they are worshiping Y’shua there are in reality worshiping God (the Father). Most people on this site realize that this is not true. That is why everyone is telling you that it is wrong to worship Jesus/Y’shua in the same way one worships God.

    If you believe God (the Father) created Y’shua then you realize Y’shua is part of creation. The “created” should not be worshiped the same way we worship the “creator”. This is not fair to the “creator”. The “creator”, God the Father, deserves better than this.

    At least that’s the way I (and most people on this site) see it anywaze…

  20. on 09 Apr 2011 at 11:13 amRay

    Though Jesus is the new creation, I’m not so sure that he was created. I know he was begotton of God. (Hebrews 1:6) I know that he was made. (Hebrews 1:4) I know that he was before all things. (Col 1:17)

    I know that God created all things by him. I trust that Jesus did all that he did for God, just as God did all that he did for him.

    I know that angels worship Jesus (Hebrews 1:6) and that the body of Christ, the church will judge angles. (I Cor 6:3)

    I have worshipped Jesus and will worship him. It was during my worshipping of him that I received my first vision of him.

    I know that there is a distinction between Jesus and God though they are one. I know there is some difference (without differences) between Jesus and God though they are the same.

    Though devils have bowed before Jesus, it seems to me that they have not worshipped him in a right spirit. Though they will tremble before him, I don’t think they will worship him in the right spirit and in truth as the saved, the redeemed, the called of God, the chosen in God, the elect, will do.

    I believe that when we worship Jesus in spirit and in truth, we do honor God, for in honoring his Son, we show honor to him who sent him for our salvation.

  21. on 09 Apr 2011 at 11:26 amRay

    I was involved in a church that was worshipping Jesus corporately and can testify that some spiritual gifts were given during that meeting.

    I believe in corporate blessings, that God gives corporately as well as individually.

    That day of Pentecost (Acts 2) is an example of both corporate blessings and of God giving individually.

    I assume the apostles and other followers of Jesus were worshiping God on that day of Pentecost when the holy spirit was given. I wonder what their worship of Christ was on that day.

    I assume they also worshiped Jesus through their prayers, songs, and words and that such was done even if they didn’t understand that they were doing so at the time, for sometimes it is that way with the gifts of the spirit of God. A prophetic word or a word of wisdom can be that way. I’ve seen it before in the Old Testament.

  22. on 09 Apr 2011 at 11:36 amXavier

    FYI: Ancient Roman [Gentile] perspective on early Christian “worship” of Jesus…

    “…on an appointed day they had been accustomed to meet before daybreak, and to recite a hymn antiphonally to Christ, as to a god, and to bind themselves by an oath, not for the commission of any crime but to abstain from theft, robbery, adultery and breach of faith and not to deny a deposit when it was claimed.

    After the conclusion of this ceremony it was their custom to depart and meet again to take food…I found nothing but a depraved and extravagant superstition, and I therefore postponed my examination and had recourse to you for consultation. Pliny the Younger, Letters to Trajan 10.96

    http://www.dokimos.org/mmlj/mmlj000.html

  23. on 09 Apr 2011 at 1:43 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You asjed, “I assume the apostles and other followers of Jesus were worshiping God on that day of Pentecost when the holy spirit was given. I wonder what their worship of Christ was on that day.”

    The bible doesn’t say anything about anyone worshiping Jesus on the day of Pentecost or at any other time. As a matter of fact, shortly after Pentecost, in Acts 2:46-47 it says, “And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, (47) ‘PRAISING GOD’ and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.” (ESV – emphasis mine).

    It clearly says they were praising God. There is nothing in Acts that says anything about people worshiping Jesus/Y’shua. This idea of worshiping Jesus/Y’shua appears to have come along much later. Probably about the same time that some people started to believe that Y’shua was not really a human being after all, but was actually God walking around in the flesh…

  24. on 09 Apr 2011 at 6:10 pmRay

    I’ve found in my past that in my worship of God there was found a true substance in it that did apply to Jesus. When we worship the character of God we do worship the substance of Christ.

  25. on 09 Apr 2011 at 7:50 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “When we worship the character of God we do worship the substance of Christ.”

    I agree in a way. When we worship God we are also honoring God’s ultimate Shliach (not sure if I’m spelling that properly) who of course is His beloved son Y’shua our Christ/King and Savior. But, I think you can see now why people on this site believe it is wrong for you to worship Y’shua in the same way you worship God. I personally believe worship belongs to God and God alone.

    But of course, like always, this is just my own humble opinion…

  26. on 10 Apr 2011 at 8:08 amRay

    People often take things by the letter of the law, or interpret something from the law so strictly that they make something of the law that God did not intend.

    I believe Christians should be free to worship Jesus.

  27. on 10 Apr 2011 at 10:18 amDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You are of course entitled to your opinion (just like everyone else), but I just wanted you to understand why I, and others on this site, believe it is wrong for you to be worshiping Jesus/Y’shua. Just because you’ve seen it done in Trinitarian churches that you have been to, doesn’t make it right. Like the article above states, there is nothing “in the bible” that says it is alright to worship Jesus/Y’shua. Just like the Trinity is a man made doctrine/tradition, worshiping Jesus/Y’shua is something that the early Christians would not have done.

    But of course, like always, this is just my own humble opinion…

  28. on 10 Apr 2011 at 12:45 pmRay

    I wonder if some people think they will be judging the angels that
    worshiped Jesus and be telling them that they were in sin by doing so? (see I Cor 6:3 and Heb 1:6)

  29. on 10 Apr 2011 at 12:58 pmWolfgang

    Ray,

    you wrote above

    When we worship the character of God we do worship the substance of Christ.

    What do these words actually mean? what is “worship the character of God”? what is meant with “character of God”? what is “worship the substance of Christ”? what is meant with “substance of Christ”?

  30. on 10 Apr 2011 at 1:22 pmRay

    Wolfgang,
    I refer you to the use of a good english dictionary.

  31. on 10 Apr 2011 at 3:10 pmXavier

    Ray

    😛

  32. on 10 Apr 2011 at 3:20 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    I do not speak Greek, but according to the above article by Sean it says the following;

    (1) Jesus is God
    (2) When proskuneo is done to Jesus it should be translated worship
    (3) In the Bible Jesus is worshiped
    (4) The Bible says that only God should be worshiped.
    (5) Therefore, Jesus must be God.

    The whole point of the article is that because of the bias of the Trinitarian translators (sub conscience or not) they deliberately translate “proskuneo” as worship when it refers to Jesus/Y’shua, but everywhere else they translate it as bow down to, or pay reverence to (which is the proper translation).

    I looked up 1 Corinthians 6:3 and it doesn’t say anything about worshiping Jesus/Y’shua. However, according to the Net Bible, when Hebrews 1:6 uses the word worship (referring to Jesus/Y’shua) it is really the Greek word “proskunhsatwsan”. This appears (to me anywaze) to be a derivative of the word “proskuneo” which, like Sean pointed out in his article, should be properly translated as bow down to, or pay reverence to.

    Like I said, I don’t speak Greek, but it seems to me Hebrews 1:6 properly translated should say, “But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: ‘Let all the angels of God bow down to Him’.” Like the article says bowing down to someone was a sign of respect in many ancient cultures.

    Even today in Asian cultures like Japan people regularly bow to each other. The more important the person, the deeper the bow. If I am translating this wrong, I’m sure Sean or someone else, that actually speaks Greek, will let me know.

    Have a great Sunday (what’s left of it)!!!

  33. on 10 Apr 2011 at 3:25 pmRay

    It seems to me that God is of at least what we could call “sterling” character. Is there anything weak or lacking in him? How about Jesus? There’s nothing lacking that is of God in him. In him is no darkness at all.

    By darkness I mean that which is evil, corrupt, unclean, impure, defiled, malicious, cruel, hateful, vile, and such like.

    When men asked Jesus questions to try to catch him at his words, Jesus showed us that he is true, kind, wise, knowlegeable, just, pure, temperate, holy and good. It’s because his character is of God that Jesus is all those things which are of God.

    God told us that he is what he is and all of the things that Jesus is, concerning character, God himself is. Isn’t that why they agree and are one? It seems to me to be one reason why.

    God is so far above what we have often seen of the character of men in this world, and so is Jesus. As the heaven is high above this earth, so are the ways of the Lord, compared to the ways of men.

  34. on 10 Apr 2011 at 3:29 pmRay

    Even devils that have hell prepared for them will bow before the Lord Jesus Christ. I think we as Christians should do better and more than they.

  35. on 10 Apr 2011 at 7:53 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    Yes we should do better then they. We should love the Lord Jesus/Y’shua and keep all his commandments. This is what will set us apart from Satan and all his angels, and all the others that are destined for a fiery death. We should also pay close attention to Y’shua’s words and try to follow them as best we can. When Y’shua was being tempted by Satan he said the following;

    Luke 4:7-8 (English Standard Version)

    “…’If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.’ (8) And Jesus answered him, ‘It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve’.”

    I don’t think that I or anybody else needs to worship Y’shua. Especially in light of what Y’shua says in the above passage. But since we seem to be going around in circles, I think it might be time for us to just respectfully agree to disagree.

    May the peace and love of God “OUR” Father be with you and with us all…

  36. on 11 Apr 2011 at 5:35 amWolfgang

    Ray,
    you suggest

    Wolfgang,
    I refer you to the use of a good english dictionary.

    I’ve checked a few good English dictionaries … while they do give definitions for individual words, they do not explain what YOU mean with the context you produce by formulating your sentence …

    Maybe you have a dictionary which would explain that?

    Perhaps Xavier can explain what you meant, since he seemed to join in with your suggestion about the English dictionaries? 😉

  37. on 11 Apr 2011 at 8:16 amXavier

    Wolfgang

    Perhaps Xavier can explain what you meant, since he seemed to join in with your suggestion about the English dictionaries? 😉

    Ray amuses me more than you do that’s all. 🙂

  38. on 11 Apr 2011 at 4:33 pmDoubting Thomas

    Xavier,
    I don’t think it is not very Christian-like to belittle your brothers in Christ, or anyone else for that matter. The fact is that as Unitarians both Ray and Wolfgang agree with you on more things then they disagree with you. But, even if people disagree with you on more things then they agree with you, it would still be wrong for you to poke fun at them. Y’shua in his great wisdom taught us the following;

    Matthew 5:22 (English Standard Version)

    “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

    We need to have compassion and love for our brothers. Even for our brothers that we disagree with. This is what separates us Christians from the rest of the world…

  39. on 11 Apr 2011 at 4:36 pmDoubting Thomas

    Correction – I meant to say, “I don’t think it is very Christian-like…”

  40. on 11 Apr 2011 at 4:50 pmXavier

    DT

    I don’t think it is not very Christian-like to belittle your brothers in Christ, or anyone else for that matter.

    I take it you are not “amused” by anyone on here yourself? I fail to see how and why that is an unchristian or belittling thing to express.

    …both Ray and Wolfgang agree with you on more things then they disagree with you.

    It is both scary and worrying for me to see how much I disagree with on such fundamental [and I thought], simple issues like the Gospel message, the human Jesus, etc., with these guys. Especially Wolfgang who I met and spent some time with not so long ago.

    Thanks for reminding me of “Y’shua” [or is it Yashua’s?] words but I am neither angered nor calling anyone a fool.

  41. on 11 Apr 2011 at 6:35 pmRay

    Though a good dictionary can not by itself tell us what others are communicating, it’s still a useful tool and can be of great help.

    John fell at the Lord’s feet as if dead (Revelation 1:17) and though there will be times for that, I don’t think it will always be the thing to do.

    People in this world bow to one another at times, but it isn’t proper etiquette to do so at all times.

    When the Lord appeared to me in a vision, did I bow? No, it didn’t seem like I was supposed to. I was too involved in taking in what he was showing me, though in the worship service, we did bow to the Lord. We did prostrate ourselves on the floor. We did repent of things.

    What’s important is that we do whatever he wants us to do at the time, whether to bow to him or not. I believe there is a time to do so and a time to not do so.

  42. on 11 Apr 2011 at 6:52 pmDoubting Thomas

    Xavier,
    You said, “I fail to see how and why that is an unchristian or belittling thing to express.”

    If someone told you they were “amused” by your beliefs. How would you feel???

    Would you feel encouraged by the other person’s remarks or would you feel belittled???

    Wouldn’t you immediately put up a defensive wall and not listen to anything else the person might have to say???

    Matthew 7:12 (English Standard Version)

    (The Golden Rule) “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

    What good does it do for a person to study ancient languages, and read all these advance theological studies, etc… if in the end they forget the very basics that even a “brand new” (uneducated) Christian knows???

  43. on 11 Apr 2011 at 8:12 pmXavier

    DT

    If someone told you they were “amused” by your beliefs. How would you feel???

    That is not what I said. Please quote me correctly.

    Would you feel encouraged by the other person’s remarks or would you feel belittled???

    Actually, I hope to have a positive reaction with people as opposed to a negative one.

    Wouldn’t you immediately put up a defensive wall and not listen to anything else the person might have to say???

    Nope.

    …if in the end they forget the very basics that even a “brand new” (uneducated) Christian knows???

    Yes. We all should seek to possess, understand and live out the biblical definition of “speaking the truth in love”.

  44. on 11 Apr 2011 at 8:49 pmMark C.

    Gentlemen,

    Before this develops into further sarcasm and/or accusations and name calling, let’s keep it on track.

    Originally Ray wrote, “When we worship the character of God we do worship the substance of Christ.” Wolfgang asked what he meant by that. Rather than referring him to a dictionary, perhaps he could clarify what he meant.

    As for treating others as you want to be treated… Xavier, how would you feel if someone were sarcastic to you and someone else chimed in with a “:P” and then said, “He amuses me more than you do.” You may not have even meant anything by it, but I can see how it could be taken the wrong way, especially since it’s hard to determine the heart behind things that are written.

    Let’s not allow this to escalate into something unpleasant, but keep it on track and civil. That will be more pleasing to God, I believe.

  45. on 11 Apr 2011 at 8:58 pmDoubting Thomas

    Xavier,
    You said, “That is not what I said. Please quote me correctly.”

    I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying.

    In msg. #37 you said, “Ray amuses me more than you do that’s all. 🙂 ”

    It seems to me your saying you are amused by both Ray and Wolfgang. If it’s not their beliefs that amuse you, then what is it???

    You also said, “We all should seek to possess, understand and live out the biblical definition of ‘speaking the truth in love’.”

    Now that I completely agree with!!!

    Peter talks about how we should speak the truth in love. 1st. Peter 3:15, “but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect…”

    And in 1st. Peter 3:8, Peter says, “Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.”

    Saying you are amused by someone seems to violate all of these things that I’ve quoted. At least to me anywaze…

  46. on 11 Apr 2011 at 9:03 pmDoubting Thomas

    Sorry Mark,
    I posted that before I saw your comment. I didn’t mean to be argumentative. I just don’t see how Xavier’s remarks are in any way helpful to the discussion…

  47. on 11 Apr 2011 at 9:44 pmXavier

    Mark C.

    Xavier, how would you feel if someone were sarcastic to you and someone else chimed in with a “:P” and then said, “He amuses me more than you do.” You may not have even meant anything by it…

    No I did not. I found Ray’s answer to Wolfgang amusing that is all. But as usual, we have other people stepping in on here feeling offended or bothered or I do not know what by comments directed to others and not to them!

    DT

    If it’s not their beliefs that amuse you, then what is it???

    Their exchange. That is all. Forgive me if my comment regarding others has offended you. Feel better?

  48. on 11 Apr 2011 at 9:59 pmRay

    It seems to me that God is kind, loving, forebearing, merciful, wise,
    good, trustworthy, and we could go on and on, and that Jesus himself is all this kind of “stuff” which is of God. It seems to me that the substance of Christ is all of what God is.

    Is there anything that God is, that was not imparted to Christ by God himself? I know of no such thing.

    Every time I worship God I feel blessed. The same thing happens to me when I worship Christ. It’s Christ that brings us to God the Father.

    When I find something in Jesus that I recognize as honorable, as having value, I find something of God that is in him. Thus, it seems to me that when I honor the Son, I honor the Father also.

  49. on 11 Apr 2011 at 10:04 pmDoubting Thomas

    Xavier,
    When two people are having a disagreement with each other, it does not help the situation when a third party comes along and says he finds it amusing. Has it even crossed your mind that the reason I find your behavior offensive is because it is. I suggest you think about it and maybe re-read my quotes above.

    Matthew 5:22, Matthew 7:12, 1st. Peter 3:15, 1st. Peter 3:8…

  50. on 11 Apr 2011 at 10:35 pmDoubting Thomas

    Xavier,
    I apologize if I offended you with that last post. It’s just that I can’t sit idly by when I see something I believe is wrong. But, I was also wrong in being so harsh in my last post..

  51. on 12 Apr 2011 at 12:20 amMark C.

    Xavier,

    No I did not. I found Ray’s answer to Wolfgang amusing that is all.

    You missed the point of what I asked you. I asked how you would feel if some one did something to you. Reread the entire exchange and ask yourself how you would feel if it were addressed to you. This is the crux of the Golden Rule.

    As I said, you may not have even meant anything by what you said, but I can see how it could be taken the wrong way, especially since it’s hard to determine the heart behind things that are written.

    For example, at face value, “Forgive me if my comment regarding others has offended you. Feel better?” could sound rather sarcastic and not like a heartfelt apology. Would it sound that way to you if someone else wrote it? But it would further derail the thread to go on and on about it rather than letting it drop.

    …But as usual, we have other people stepping in on here feeling offended or bothered or I do not know what by comments directed to others and not to them!

    I stepped in as a moderator of this blog and urged everyone to stick to the topic and not let it degenerate into petty arguments. Is it really productive to argue about that? Let’s get back to the topic.

    _____________________

    Ray,

    I understand your thinking about honoring Christ as much as you honor God. The point of the original argument is that there is a distinction between honoring Christ and “worship” in the sense of the worship we are to give to God alone.

  52. on 12 Apr 2011 at 7:04 amXavier

    DT

    I apologize if I offended you with that last post.

    Apology accepted.

    Mark C

    I asked how you would feel if some one did something to you.

    I answered you. If you did not [or could not understand] my reply well…that is another ball game.

    I stepped in as a moderator of this blog…

    I was referring to DT.

    Anyway, I thought you did not want to drag this thing on?

  53. on 12 Apr 2011 at 7:13 pmRay

    I don’t know when honoring, revering, reverencing, adoring, and such like move into the realm of worship.

    I’ve heard that in heaven, only God and Jesus are worshipped.

    As men on this earth, we may honor, revere, and adore the scriptures, but do we bow down to them? Not in a litteral sense anyway.

  54. on 12 Apr 2011 at 7:32 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “I don’t know when honoring, revering, reverencing, adoring, and such like move into the realm of worship.”

    I also don’t know exactly when honoring, revering, reverencing, adoring and such move into the realm of worship. I myself honor, revere and adore Y’shua as our King and Messiah. But since the bible states that worship belongs to God, then I personally believe it is wrong to be worshiping Y’shua or anyone else. That’s the only point I have been trying to make.

    Maybe someone more educated then myself can explain to you when honoring, revering and adoring moves into the realm of worship…

  55. on 12 Apr 2011 at 9:24 pmRay

    I know the Bible teaches us that ultimate judgment is God’s, that is that God is the judge over all. It also says that God has committed judgment to Jesus.

    When Jesus judges, it is the judgment of God for Jesus judges according to the will of God.

    Though all who will be saved will worship God in spirit and in truth (and this is a gift of God to us by the holy spirit and the work of Christ which he did for us in this world as payment for our sins) it seems to me that Jesus also will receive worship from those he has saved and redeemed. I believe that he does receive it as we do worship him in this world. I believe he receives that which is right and corrects us (if we are willing to receive it) concerning that which is not.

    As Christians I believe we have a witness in ourselves by his spirit which he has given us, concerning a lot of things. If we are sensitive to the spirit of God we can receive the instruction.

    I also know that Jesus will have us to worship God. All that Jesus did was to bring us to God, to save us, and to bring us on to the place where we will live for God as God will have it.

  56. on 12 Apr 2011 at 9:39 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “I also know that Jesus will have us to worship God. All that Jesus did was to bring us to God, to save us, and to bring us on to the place where we will live for God as God will have it.”

    I agree. It seems clear to me that Y’shua wants us to worship God. Like the article says, there is nothing in the bible (when translated correctly) that says we should be worshiping Y’shua. This is a man made idea that Trinitarian translators have written into the word of God by mistranslating words (subconsciously or not). But, clear to people like Sean that have studied the ancient Greek language.

    It appears we are not going to ever agree on this. Like I said in msg. #35 above.

    “When Y’shua was being tempted by Satan he said the following;

    Luke 4:7-8 (English Standard Version)

    “…’If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.’ (8) And Jesus answered him, ‘It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve’.”

    I don’t think that I or anybody else needs to worship Y’shua. Especially in light of what Y’shua says in the above passage. But since we seem to be going around in circles, I think it might be time for us to just respectfully agree to disagree.

    May the peace and love of God “OUR” Father be with you and with us all…”

  57. on 12 Apr 2011 at 11:09 pmMark C.

    I don’t know when honoring, revering, reverencing, adoring, and such like move into the realm of worship.

    Indeed this seems to be the crux of the debate. It seems we all agree then, that Jesus is worthy of the highest honor and reverence a man could receive, but there is a type of worship reserved only for God Himself.

  58. on 12 Apr 2011 at 11:47 pmXavier

    Mark C.

    How would you answer those who argue for latreuvo given to the Son of Man figure [saints?] in Dan 7.17, 27?

  59. on 12 Apr 2011 at 11:50 pmXavier

    CORRECTION: According to the LXX, Dan 7.14, 27 [“…shall serve and obey him (they?)].

  60. on 13 Apr 2011 at 5:52 amMark C.

    Xavier,

    Interesting question. Let me review for those who haven’t read the whole thread, and make sure I understand your point correctly. In comment 4, you wrote:

    Some use the text in Dan 7.14, 27 to support the view that the Son of Man figure here [embodying the nation/people of Israel itself], who the NT writers see as being the ‘person’ of Jesus, is in fact “worshiped” as God. This is based on the Greek Septuagint’s translation of the Aramaic word to “serve/worship” [palach] as latrevousa [the inflected form of latrevo for the present active participle, in the feminine gender, singular number, nominative case].

    For those not familiar with these words, here is what I found out.

    The OT uses the Aramaic palach, applied generally to Daniel’s vision [7.14, 27; cp. 6.16-17, 20-21; 3.28; 7.24; “servants” of the Jewish Temple [Ezra 7.24].

    In the Greek Septuagint palach becomes latreuo [”worship”; Cp. latreai = “service worship”, Ex 3:12; 7:16; Deu 4:28; Jdg 2:11, 13].

    This word is also used in the same context in the NT, reserved for God alone:
    • In a religious sense to worship God (Mat 4:10; Luk 1:74; 2:37; 4:8; Act 7:7; 24:14; 27:23; Rom 1:9; Phi 3:3; 2Ti 1:3; Heb 9:14; 12:28; Rev 22:3);
    • Used in an absolute sense (Act 26:7; Sept.: Deu 6:13; 10:12; Jos 24:15);
    • “worshipping creatures [other] than the Creator” (Rom 1:25; Sept.: Deu 4:28; Jdg 2:11, 13);
    • Particularly to the performing of the Levitical service (Heb 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10);
    • Of the celestial/heavenly temple (Rev 7:15)
    • To offer sacrifice, to worship (Heb 9: 9; 10:2; cf. Sept.: Ex 3:12; 7:16).

    In response, Sean wrote:

    Theodotions Greek uses δουλεύω (doulevo) not λατρεύω (latrevo) for Dan. 7.14. Also, you may be interested in a new English translation comparing the LXX to Theodotion’s version…available here. (Also, Bibleworks has Theodotion’s version for some books…to access Daniel go to the Greek Bible (BGT) and then go to Dat 7.14 (where Dat = Daniel Theodotion’s version).
    __________

    My point is simply that two ancient Greek translations saw the same Aramaic word “palach” and one translated it as latrevo and the other as doulevo. Furthermore, Theodotion’s translation of Dan. 7 is actually better in most places for Daniel 7…we actually just compared the two last week in Greek class. I think your real investigation should be with the Aramaic word. Can it be used of God and human superiors or is it for God alone?

    Xavier replied:

    According to my findings, the Aramaic palach is consistently translated as latreuo in the book of Daniel [cp. 6.16-17, 20-21; 3.28; 7.24].

    The BDB, KB, Gesenius’, Jastrow’s and some of the Targums translate palach as “serve” or “pay reverence to”. So it seems that in general usage palach meant something like “serve/worship/minister to”, all of which in this context would be synonymous ideas. And all of which were closely related, if not specifically, to religious/divine worship of [a] Deity.

    Before this thread I hadn’t come across the argument that the word in Daniel was latrevo, so I haven’t looked at it in any depth. But looking over the above data, I would suspect that the original Aramaic word can mean either service to people or worship of God, and must be determined by the context. (This is only a guess, of course.) If anyone has any more insight into the Aramaic word, we’d be grateful for the input.

  61. on 13 Apr 2011 at 8:19 amXavier

    Mark C

    I would suspect that the original Aramaic word can mean either service to people or worship of God, and must be determined by the context.

    That is not in question here. The question is over the use of the word latreuo by the LXX translators. If you see the usage of it throughout the book of Daniel you will find it is always applied/referred to Deity.

  62. on 13 Apr 2011 at 8:27 amJaco

    Just a quick hopping in…

    http://kingdomready.org/blog/2010/08/28/rebuttal-2b/#comment-72780

    Here you’ll find the reasons behind douleusosin in the LXX, instead of latreusosin.

    Take care,

    Jaco

  63. on 13 Apr 2011 at 8:49 amMark C.

    That is not in question here. The question is over the use of the word latreuo by the LXX translators. If you see the usage of it throughout the book of Daniel you will find it is always applied/referred to Deity.

    True. But is it always applied to Deity throughout the whole Old Testament? And in this particular instance, is it necessarily the best translation of the original Aramaic word, if Theodotion’s Greek uses doulevo instead?

  64. on 13 Apr 2011 at 9:05 amXavier

    Jaco

    So we should dismiss the LXX in this regard? Or the evidence is too vague to come to any conclusion?

  65. on 13 Apr 2011 at 10:15 amRay

    Isn’t Jesus worthy of the same worship that we give to God?

    In so many ways I believe that he is.

    The angels of God do not worship the Father alone. They also are allowed by God to worship Jesus. (Hebrews 1:6)

    I wonder if their worship of God is different than their worship of Jesus, and if so, in what ways?

    It’s so good to worship the Lord. I’ve heard it said that the purpose of our worship is to touch him. To so so we have to reach out and reach up. In the scriptures we’ve read about a woman who reached out to the Lord and she touched the hem of his garment.

  66. on 14 Apr 2011 at 11:36 amSarah

    Hi Sean,

    I read the article above and have been following this thread the last few days. I was raised Southern Baptist and right now I’m investigating Christian Monotheism.

    My question for you is less theological and more practical: How does this issue play out for you personally when listening to (or singing) christian worship music?

  67. on 14 Apr 2011 at 1:29 pmSean

    Sarah,

    In my church, we typically change the lyrics to songs that worship Jesus as if he were God. This way we are able to stay true to what Jesus said (to worship God alone). Of course, we still do sing songs about Jesus and about the coming kingdom and about the resurrection, crucifixion, etc….but these are not worship songs (strictly speaking).

  68. on 14 Apr 2011 at 7:37 pmRay

    Because Christians may worship Jesus, they may rightly say that he is God.

    The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the spirit of Christ which is given unto us will lead us in the worship of Jesus and God for his work is to help keep us in the kingdom of Christ.

  69. on 14 Apr 2011 at 8:04 pmXavier

    Sean

    …these are not worship songs (strictly speaking).

    What are they then?

  70. on 14 Apr 2011 at 9:04 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “Because Christians may worship Jesus…”

    You must realize that you are the “only” one on this thread that keeps repeating that it is OK to worship Jesus. Saying something over and over again does not make it true. The whole point of the article, and most of the comments that follow, is that the Trinitarian scholars have “mistranslated” the original Greek scriptures. The original Greek scriptures don’t say anything about it being alright to “worship” Jesus!!!

    You keep quoting these “mistranslations” (like Hebrews 1:6) as proof that you are right and that we are all wrong. Every time you read in your Geneva bible about someone (like the angels, etc..) worshiping Jesus, you should say to yourself that the proper translation is bow down to, or pay reverence to Jesus, “NOT” worship Jesus!!!

    The Trinitarian scholars have confused you and everyone else by changing the original Greek scriptures into saying something that they don’t say in the original Greek.

    You also said, “…they may rightly say that he is God.”

    Why would it be alright to call Jesus by “HIS” Father’s name???

    I know you know that Jesus is not “God the Son” but “the son of God”. People that say that Jesus is God don’t believe that he is in reality “the son of God”, but that he is in reality “God the Son”. In other words that Jesus was really God walking around in the flesh on the earth pretending to die on the cross, but not really dying since God can’t die.

    By saying that it’s alright for people to say that Jesus is God, you are denying the fact that God’s beloved son, our Messiah and King, gave himself up to suffer and die, so that he could be resurrected back to life to save us from our sinful nature. God’s son can not be God!!! Otherwise he is not “God’s son”, but “God the Son”.

    I understand you being confused by all the mistranslations and such. But, just listen to your heart and you will know that Jesus was “the son of God” and not “God the Son”.

    Please think and pray about what I have said and have a great night…

  71. on 15 Apr 2011 at 7:18 pmRay

    On page 132 of Dean Braxton’s book In Heaven, he writes about a heavenly light blue being that was leading worship in heaven.

    As I was thinking of this, I remembered an organization I was congregating with which had a blue songbook. It had some very wonderful songs about the Lord Jesus in it, and some very good songs that mention the blood.

    Sadly, this book was replaced with another songbook and we were told to turn in all of the blue songbooks. Most of us didn’t understand this as we wanted to keep the old book. We were told it was a matter of copywrite issues.

    I really don’t know all the details as to why the change, only that there was something lost by us not singing from the old book.

    I wish I had the words to the one I remember as being called “The Hem of His Garment.”

    I hope the real reason for the songbook change was not some kind of doctrine or idea of men that Jesus shouldn’t be worshipped.

    There are still songs that worship Jesus, speaking of him, as well as songs that speak to him in the book that replaced the old one. I still have a copy of that book and do refer to it at times, but the old one I still miss and wish I had a copy of today.

    I think we have a need for all good worship songs.

  72. on 15 Apr 2011 at 9:26 pmSean

    DT,

    In old English the word “worship” did not contain within the idea that worship should only be given to God. For example, the KJV always translated προσκυνέω (proskyneo) as “worship” even when it was done to the saints:

    (Rev 3:9 KJV) 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    Furthermore, it was customary to address certain noble people in Britain as his/her worship. See quote below from wikipedia:

    His or Her Worship is an honorific prefix for mayors, Justices of the Peace and magistrates in Commonwealth Realms. In spoken address, these officials are addressed as Your Worship or referred to as His or Her Worship;

    Thus, the meaning of the word worship is what has changed. If we did not automatically assume that worship implies diety then there would not be a problem. However, since we do now, which can be confirmed by consulting a standard English dictionary, modern translations should be honest enough to render the word proskyneo more literally as “bow.”

  73. on 16 Apr 2011 at 12:54 amDoubting Thomas

    Thank-you Sean,
    I see this is even more complicated than I realized. I’m just a simple man and about as far from being a scholar as you could imagine. But, I do realize that you and others on this site have studied these things in great depth. I want to thank-you for explaining such a complex issue in a way that even a layman like myself can understand it (at least I think I understand it).

    BTW – You guys are doing a great job here on K.R.!!!

    Have a great weekend and God Bless…

  74. on 16 Apr 2011 at 5:31 amSean

    DT,

    Thank you for the encouragement!

  75. on 16 Apr 2011 at 6:17 amXavier

    DT

    I see this is even more complicated than I realized.

    As per the OT precedence of bowing down [do obeisance] to BOTH the LORD God and His anointed human representative [1Chro 29.20], so Jewish-Christians did the same thing.

    Two Lords to be sure, as per Ps 110.1, but one worshiped as the one Creator God and the other as the human Messiah. Simple!

    The Devil is in the details.

  76. on 16 Apr 2011 at 11:21 amRay

    It seems to me that Revelation 3:9 is talking more about someone being a worship leader than being one who receives the worship.

    It reminds me of how Job’s three friends came to him with their sacrifices by the command of the Lord.

  77. on 16 Apr 2011 at 1:58 pmDoubting Thomas

    Thanks Xavier…

  78. on 26 Apr 2011 at 11:06 pmRay

    I’d like to take a closer look at Luke 24:52 and invite others to do the same.

    Luke 24:52
    And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

    This is the time when Jesus was taken up into heaven. There’s a lot that went on just prior to this time when according to this scripture
    “they worshipped him.”

    Jesus had appeared to the two men on the road to Emmaus shortly after his resurrection, opening their eyes and enlightening
    their understanding of the scripture concerning him. After Jesus opened the scriptures to their understanding, they didn’t want him to leave their company, for their hearts burned with a heavenly fire, a passion and a zeal for the things of God.

    Upon his vanishing out of their sight, instead of their previous talk
    while they walked on the road, not knowing who it was that was with them, they had this to say:

    (Luke 24:32)
    Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

    As long as the men were doing the talking, their hearts were not on fire with the word of God. But notice the praise. I might even call it worship.

    As one reads this chapter from Luke, well, I think we can gather that his disciples didn’t just bow or bow down and then get up and get going on to Jerusalem. I think they had a lot to say to one another and I think they said it with great joy. I wish their words were recorded here. I think I would have liked to read them if they had been written.

  79. on 27 Apr 2011 at 9:31 amSean

    Ray,

    What follows is from the NAB (the Catholic translation):

    (Luk 24:51-53 NAB)
    51 As he blessed them he parted from them and was taken up to heaven.
    52 They did him homage and then returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
    53 and they were continually in the temple praising God.

    Once Jesus started ascending they hit the ground as a sign of intense respect and homage. Again, the act itself does not indicate whether or not the bower is “worshiping” or “showing respect”…this needs to be determined based on other facts.

  80. on 27 Apr 2011 at 10:34 amXavier

    Sean [and anyone else]

    How do you explain the instances of proskuneo to the Lamb in the book of Apocalypse? Seems to me like there is more than just a show of “respect” or “homage” being done here.

  81. on 27 Apr 2011 at 7:50 pmRay

    I’m quite certain the apostles gave out their words of praise after having seen Jesus ascend into heaven. I think they rejoiced together on their way to Jerusalem, being filled with worship of God and Jesus.

    That’s how I perceive it.

    When I hear worship, when it’s good..I feel rejuvenated. Such words fill me with life. It’s like breathing fresh air. That’s how worship should be for us.

    Imagine seeing what they saw.

  82. on 27 Apr 2011 at 9:44 pmXavier

    except Ray :/

  83. on 28 Apr 2011 at 4:54 amWolfgang

    Xavier,

    How do you explain the instances of proskuneo to the Lamb in the book of Apocalypse? Seems to me like there is more than just a show of “respect” or “homage” being done here.

    What do you mean with “more than just a show of ‘respect’ and ‘homage’ “?

    It seems to me rather clear that respect and homage (“worship”) is done to the Lamb as the Lamb, whereas in other instances respect and homage (“worship”) is done to God as God.

  84. on 28 Apr 2011 at 7:55 amXavier

    Wolfgang

    What do you mean with “more than just a show of ‘respect’ and ‘homage’ “?

    Sean previously wrote something about not worshiping the Son in a way that might confuse him with God the Father. Yet, in Revelation, the lines of proskuneo are somewhat blurred since both the Lamb and “the One seated on the throne” are given proskuneo in the same way.

    “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
    for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped. Rev 5.13-14

    The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. Rev 19.4

  85. on 28 Apr 2011 at 8:42 amRay

    It seems to me that if men were truly enlightened by God that they could list an endless amount of lines of praise and worship that apply directly to God, and Jesus also.

  86. on 28 Apr 2011 at 2:49 pmSean

    Carlos,

    Perhaps we could find help by examining a parallel text from the Old Testament?

    (1Ch 29:20 KJV) 20 ¶ And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.

    Here I quoted from the KJV b/c all the modern versions I checked refused to use the word “worship” since they have an aversion to applying the word “worship” to David. However, in a parallel construction with Jesus suddenly we insist on using “worship” instead of “bowed before”, “did obeisance to”, or “did homage to”, etc. Furthermore, Brenton’s translation of the LXX here adds an extra phrase which clearly indicates his anxiety about the matter:

    (1Ch 29:20 BGT) 20  ¶ καὶ εἶπεν Δαυιδ πάσῃ τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ εὐλογήσατε κύριον τὸν θεὸν ὑμῶν καὶ εὐλόγησεν πᾶσα ἡ ἐκκλησία κύριον τὸν θεὸν τῶν πατέρων αὐτῶν καὶ κάμψαντες τὰ γόνατα προσεκύνησαν τῷ κυρίῳ καὶ τῷ βασιλεῖ

    (1Ch 29:20 LXE) 20 ¶ And David said to the whole congregation, Bless ye the Lord our God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and they bowed the knee and worshipped the Lord, and did obeisance to the king.

    Italics were in the original to indicate an addition. I invite you to examine the NASB, NAB, NIV, etc. on this text.

  87. on 28 Apr 2011 at 4:21 pmXavier

    Sean

    Are you suggesting that the figure of the OT Davidic King is on par with Jesus?

    The picture I get from the NT writers and especially the Apocalypse, is that the Son is FAR GREATER in stature/role/function than [say] his OT proto[couter]types.

    In other words, the whole of creation, including angelic figures [elders/cherubs/archangels, etc.], are NOT rendering total “obeisance/respect/honor” [or whatever word apart from “worship” you may want to use] to anyone else apart from the Son.

  88. on 28 Apr 2011 at 4:24 pmXavier

    PS: “anyone else” apart from God the Father that is.

  89. on 28 Apr 2011 at 5:11 pmSean

    Carlos,

    My point is simply that those who want to make a case from Rev 5.13-14 that Jesus is God b/c he is worshiped alongside God are claiming too much b/c they are also unintentionally making the case that David is God b/c he too is worshiped alongside God in 1 Chron 29.20. How we work this out is another issue, but we certainly cannot avoid such a striking parallel passage. How do you suggest we understand 1 Chron 29.20?

  90. on 29 Apr 2011 at 6:35 amRay

    It seems to me that salt can be light and light can be salt though the two are not the same in this world.

  91. on 29 Apr 2011 at 6:56 amXavier

    Sean

    How do you suggest we understand 1 Chron 29.20?

    Your giving me one verse from the OT. However you want to interpret it it is certainly not on par with the type of proskuneo given to the Son in the NT.

  92. on 29 Apr 2011 at 8:04 amSean

    Carlos,

    Perhaps you could help clarify to me your reticence in accepting the parallel here between 1 Chron 29.20 and Rev 5.13-14. Is it your position that as Christians we should worship Jesus in the same way we worship the Father? I think the parallels between the two texts are inescapable and mutually illuminating. If we assert that proskyneo done to God and the king in Revelation is “worship” then we must also admit that proskyneo done to God and the king in 1 Chronicles is likewise “worship.” This, I think, is a sufficient defeater for the claim that Jesus is worshiped as God in Rev. 5.13-14. Perhaps you have a better explanation?

  93. on 29 Apr 2011 at 9:56 amXavier

    Sean

    Is it your position that as Christians we should worship Jesus in the same way we worship the Father?

    Obviously not as God but as the slain Lamb, promised Messiah, Son of the one God of Israel, YHWH.

    All I am simply pointing to is the fact that the TYPE/LEVEL of proskyneo that is commanded of us far exceeds the type we see in the OT citation you keep bringing up.

    How else would we answer Jesus’ questions?

    What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?…how can David, guided by the Spirit, call him Lord? If David calls him Lord, how can he be his son? Mat 22.41-45

  94. on 04 Jun 2011 at 11:05 pmMarc Taylor

    You people go on and on about how the Lord Jesus is not to be worshipped. Since praying to the Lord Jesus is worship and the Lord Jesus was prayed to this proves that the Lord Jesus was worshipped.

    Hopefully at least one person who believes that Christ should not be prayed to/worshipped will be open to debating this one one one.
    I already posted about this topic here (post #5):

    http://kingdomready.org/blog/2009/03/01/who-ya-gonna-call/#comment-88113

  95. on 04 Jun 2011 at 11:19 pmXavier

    Marc

    Since praying to the Lord Jesus is worship and the Lord Jesus was prayed to this proves that the Lord Jesus was worshipped.

    Whilst this might be true, still does not mean Jesus is somehow God.

    On a side note, this would pose a problem for those Catholics who pray to Mary and the saints. 😉

  96. on 05 Jun 2011 at 8:23 amMarc Taylor

    Xavier,
    It does prove that he is God since He must be omniscient in order to hear all these prayers and omnipotent in that He is able to act upon them.
    An omniscient and omnipotent being is by definition “God”.

    Catholics are wrong for praying to others besides God alone.

  97. on 05 Jun 2011 at 9:07 amXavier

    Marc

    It does prove that he is God since He must be omniscient in order to hear all these prayers and omnipotent in that He is able to act upon them. An omniscient and omnipotent being is by definition “God”.

    Whatever he is now, and whatever he is able to do as the glorified/spiritual man, unique Son of God, all those things HE HAS BEEN GIVEN. They are not INHERENTLY his.

    Clearly, God has put everything under Christ’s authority. When God says that everything has been put under Christ’s authority, this clearly excludes God, since God has put everything under Christ’s authority.

    But when God puts everything under Christ’s authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, since God had put everything under the Son’s authority. Then God will be in control of everything. 1Cor 15.27-28

  98. on 05 Jun 2011 at 10:27 amRay

    I heard from one who died and went to heaven (Dean Braxton) about how in heaven everything is one, that heaven is “God”, that he saw that heaven is a throne, and that the throne is God, that heaven is the throne of God.

    I believe there are heavenly perspectives and there are earthly ones.

  99. on 05 Jun 2011 at 10:19 pmMarc Taylor

    Why couldn’t Christ CHOOSE to not always use His ability. Refusal to use does not necessitate the innate inability to do so.

    The fact that at ANYTIME He is omniscient and omnipotent demands He is God.

    “The Omniscient God” http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omniscient

    “The Omnipotent God”
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omnipotent

  100. on 07 Jul 2011 at 6:45 pmDan

    Lads,

    Remember that in Matthew 4:10 Jesus reminds Satan that only God is to be worshipped

    Then read Revelation 5:13. Everything and everyody is worshipping God the Father, AND the Lamb.

    Of course Jesus is to be worshipped. He is God, just as much as the Father. “I and the Father are one”. “The Lord said to my Lord…”

    John “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God.”

    John 20:28 “My Lord and my God!”

    Remember the rhetorical question that the Pharisees asked? “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And the answer to that rhetorical question is “precisely.”

  101. on 08 Jul 2011 at 1:38 amRay

    Yes we should worship Jesus as he is not someone that is aside from God. He is pertaining to God, being his only begotten Son, the very Word of God himself.

    There are some Pharisees who by the letter of words do not seem to understand the words.

    When God said that man was not to worship any other gods beside him, he didn’t have that commandment written so that men would not worship Jesus after he came to be revealed.

    Beside can mean “by or at the side of”, or it can mean “other than, aside from”.

    At the time the first commandment was given to Moses, Jesus was not given clear mention in great detail. He was the mystery of God that was hidden.

    When God said “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Ex 20:3) he did not mention Jesus Christ his Son who was with him.

    (I will say that to worship Jesus above God or to esteem him in a higher place than God would be wrong. I believe God and Christ are against that sort of thing.
    I believe David did keep Christ before his eyes at times as he was in the presence of God during his worship.)

    They were to have no other that they worshipped as God except for the one mentioned which was the Father himself, until such time as Jesus his Son was revealed.

    Once the Son of God came to be revealed, he was given worship by the scriptures. Men like David worshipped him in the Spirit of God.

    The Son of God was not one that was aside from God, as if apart from him, (as if he were someone whose character and nature was something other than all that God is) but was at his side, being hidden from the eyes of men for the most part.

    In context, God was telling men to not worship anything in the creation that was not him.

    We may certainly worship Jesus. After all, he is God. He’s as much God as God himself is. As God is what he is and is all that he is, so is Jesus. Jesus is as God is, being all that God is, and is in effect, God to us, even as he is his Son, just as much ,if not more, than those who believe in him are the salt of the earth.

    We have the liberty by the Spirit of God to worship Christ. We are told by the scriptures themselves to honor him and give him reverence. When I do that, I do worship him.

    Jesus holds the highest rank, the highest honor in heaven. God the Father has rightfully given him that place which he has rightfully earned. No man is able to take that away from him. No being he has ever made is to have as high an honor as he. Jesus is God to me. (Discern what I say)

    Please don’t feel you need to remind me that he is the Son of God.
    I trust I know that every bit as much as you do. I don’t need to be told that by anyone on this blog.

    I encourage you to worship Jesus. He’s straight and right all the way through. There’s nothing crooked in him, no corruption whatsoever, no darkness at all. The same goes for God the Father.

    If the whole Church worldwide would be single in this, I trust the whole Body would be full of light.

    We all as members of the Body of Christ, should encourage others to worship Christ as He is the Head of the Body.

  102. on 08 Jul 2011 at 6:20 amXavier

    MT

    Why couldn’t Christ CHOOSE to not always use His ability. Refusal to use does not necessitate the innate inability to do so.

    Can you cite some scripture please?

  103. on 08 Jul 2011 at 11:13 amAntioch

    Dan,

    It was revealing to me to do a word study of the Greek word ‘proskuneo’ versus ‘latreu’. Many translations use ‘worship’ when proskuneo is used with Jesus but use ‘bow down’ when it is used of anyone else. Meanwhile, only ‘latreu’ is ever used with the Father, never with Jesus.

    In that temptation passage, Satan asks Jesus to ‘proskuneo’ him, but Jesus said he ‘proskuneos’ the Father and ‘latreu’ Him only.

    John 1:1 is another passage that has the trinity read into it. Before the KJV, ‘Word’ was an ‘it’ and not a ‘he’. In other words, logos is not a person, it is a thing, and that is clear from seeing all the other occurrences of ‘logos’ in the text. That is a strong argument that Word Jesus. Otherwise, I would agree that 1:1c is a pretty strong passage that would assert that Jesus is God.

    But I ask you, how come we never see it written ‘God the Son’ but we see ‘God the Father’ time and time again? Why does Paul never address the holy spirit in the greetings of any of his epistles? And where is the debate – Jesus came and was changing Judaism from a uni-personal God to a tri-personal God and there was no debate over this anywhere in the NT?

  104. on 08 Jul 2011 at 12:34 pmAntioch

    That should read… “that is a strong argument that Word does not equal Jesus”

  105. on 08 Jul 2011 at 2:25 pmSarah

    Just a few thoughts related to worship…

    Wouldn’t worship involve a devotion of the heart and mind that unfolds over time? When we accept and obey Jesus’ words, he receives worship by proxy. We are ultimately obeying God as the source of the Word. But we are also obeying (worshipping) Jesus since he is the one who uttered the words we are to obey.

    When Satan asked Jesus to worship him, I think it was more than a request to literally bow to the ground. Satan was enticing Jesus to accept and obey his word rather than God’s word. He wanted Jesus to work with him to obtain the kingdom in a different way than prescribed by God. To agree would have been to follow (and thus worship) Satan. Jesus replied that he would only worship the Father, which was another way of saying he was sticking to the original plan as written by the prohpets.

  106. on 09 Jul 2011 at 6:40 amMarc Taylor

    Xavier,
    Yes, Matthew 28:18 and John 17:5.

    1. TDNT: Elsewhere, however, it is said of the Redeemer during His earthly life that He has laid aside His power and appeared in lowliness and humility, Mt. 11:29; 12:18-21; 2 C. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-8 -> kenow 3, 661, 13-28, cf. the temptation of Jesus, Mt. 4:8 f. par. Lk. 4:5 f. Thus, when the full power of Jesus is occasionally mentioned during the time of His humiliation, it is merely a proleptic fact.
    A new situation is brought into being with the crucifixion and resurrection. The Chosen One seizes the full power which He had from the beginning of the world, Mt. 28:18: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (5:895, pas – Reicke).
    2. Thayer: 4. a most glorious condition, most exalted state; a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth: Lk. 24.26; Jn. 17.5 (where he is said to have been in the same condition before his incarnation, and even before the beginning of the world) (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, doxa, page 156).
    3. Thayer: of God exalting, or rather restoring, Christ is his Son to a state of glory in heaven; Jn. 7.39; 12.16, [23]; 13.31 sq.; 17.1, 5; Acts 3.13 (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, doxazw, page 157).
    —————-
    Antioch,
    Christ receives latreuw (Revelation 22:3).
    http://kingdomready.org/blog/2008/10/01/defining-the-term-%e2%80%9cworship%e2%80%9d/#comment-88658

  107. on 09 Jul 2011 at 7:20 amXavier

    MT

    So the Son ceased to be God while on earth?

  108. on 09 Jul 2011 at 7:46 amMarc Taylor

    From #99:

    Refusal to use does not necessitate the innate inability to do so.

  109. on 09 Jul 2011 at 7:53 amXavier

    MT

    That’s not the point. The Son is said not to know many things [Mar 5.9; Luke 8.30, 45; Mar 5.30; 9.16; 13.32; John 11.34; 21.17].

  110. on 09 Jul 2011 at 8:13 amMarc Taylor

    The Son is said to know something alone….excluding ALL others (Revelation 19:12).
    Your point?

  111. on 09 Jul 2011 at 8:17 amXavier

    MT

    Its not about “refusal” its about not knowing. Period.

    SO your point is the same as before, the Son somehow knows something that the Father does not? Hence, “the Father has a God” who is His own Son?

  112. on 09 Jul 2011 at 8:21 amMarc Taylor

    He chose to lay this aside. That is part of His humiliation. What you can’t explain is how Colossians 2:3 teaches that ALL the treasures of wisdom and knowldge is in Christ. This makes Him God.

  113. on 09 Jul 2011 at 8:30 amMarc Taylor

    I can cite lexicons that support what I wrote concerning Colossians 2:3 while you reject them and supply your authoritative opinion.
    Ho hum…..not wasting my time here.

    later./…

  114. on 09 Jul 2011 at 8:30 amXavier

    MT

    Stick to my questions please:

    If the Son knows something that the Father does not, this means that the Son is God to the Father?

  115. on 09 Jul 2011 at 10:45 amAntioch

    Marc,

    I have read the thread you linked. Of course you can find trinitarian scholars who are very capable of an elastic definition of ‘God’, just as there were those who explained the retrograde orbits required of an earth centered view of the universe. The earthly church was wrong then and it can be wrong now. Revelation 22:3 – servants shall serve ‘him’ (singular pronoun), yet ‘God and Lamb’ are two. Meanwhile, the entire book of Revelation was given to Jesus by God (not the Father). I just cannot buy the elasticity of the word ‘God’ that is required of trinitarianism when the uni-personal interpretation is so much clearer. Your God gives us language that any 10 year old can understand, but then twists it so that only a scholar can interpret it.

  116. on 09 Jul 2011 at 12:09 pmXavier

    Antioch

    Meanwhile, the entire book of Revelation was given to Jesus by God (not the Father).

    Not the Father?

  117. on 09 Jul 2011 at 3:29 pmRay

    Lots of words are used in different ways and I suppose we could call that being elastic.

    It’s not at all unusual for words to be used in ways that would give a different color or tint depending on how they are used.

    Context is often a helpful clue as to how a word is being used.

    Sometimes I think the flexibility is upon us as much as on a particular word itself.

    It seems to me that Jesus did receive the revelation that he gave to John, from the Father. It seems to me that Jesus is always in communion with the Father and that the Father has put all things under his authority even though we don’t yet see everything of evil subdued yet. We know that that day is coming.

    Evil may have it ‘s way for a time, but in the end all things will be subdued by Christ to the glory of God the Father.

  118. on 09 Jul 2011 at 4:31 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “Evil may have it ‘s way for a time, but in the end all things will be subdued by Christ to the glory of God the Father.”

    Now “that” I completely agree with… 🙂

  119. on 09 Jul 2011 at 4:48 pmAntioch

    Xavier – poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that the text says it was given by ‘God’. Had it said that the revelation was given by the Father to the Son, then the trinity is not violated. That was my point. Trinitarians have to use an elastic interpretation of ‘God’ in order to make sense of Revelation 1:1 (and many other similar verses that mention God and Jesus separately). I could accept the trinity if there was even one verse that said ‘God’ means Father, Son, and Spirit.

  120. on 09 Jul 2011 at 5:38 pmXavier

    Antioch

    I could accept the trinity if there was even one verse that said ‘God’ means Father, Son, and Spirit.

    Agreed. We all would probably be Trinitarians but would find other things to argue about I am sure. 🙂

  121. on 09 Jul 2011 at 7:43 pmRay

    If we could name two (of anything, person or whatever) of all that is, that we could call God, which are above all the rest of creation, (including beings, visible and invisible) what two would that be? (Matt 22:43)

    Or… would that be three? (Matt 28:19)

  122. on 09 Jul 2011 at 7:45 pmRay

    Why would one have to be a Trinitarian? Couldn’t he simply be a Christian?

  123. on 09 Jul 2011 at 8:53 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    We are “all” Christians first and our Unitarian beliefs, Trinitarian beliefs, Oneness beliefs, etc… are “all” secondary. That’s why I believe, when it comes down to it, we are “all” members of the body of Christ and are “all” Brothers in Christ. In other words we “ARE” all Christians who try our best to be Christ like in our day to day interactions with the people we meet. Even Atheists are the “children of God”. Of course they just don’t realize it (at least not yet).

    That’s the way I see it anywaze…

  124. on 09 Jul 2011 at 10:42 pmXavier

    DT

    We are “all” Christians first and our Unitarian beliefs, Trinitarian beliefs, Oneness beliefs, etc… are “all” secondary.

    To coin a well-known phrase, ‘what would Jesus have done’ if instead of agreeing with his Jewish creed of the Shema the teacher would have come back with the Athanasian creed? 🙂

  125. on 09 Jul 2011 at 11:08 pmRay

    To use the same phrase, I wonder what Jesus would do, if…it happened in heaven that somebody gave a word of worship or praise to Jesus, comparing him to God the Father in some way that said that he in effect, is God, in some sense of the term, or by comparison, and somebody rises up and says that someone just broke the Shema.

    The reason I wonder about that is because we have been given such liberty in Christ by the holy Spirit.

  126. on 09 Jul 2011 at 11:12 pmXavier

    Ray

    …somebody gave a word of worship or praise to Jesus, comparing him to God the Father in some way that said that he in effect, is God…

    I believe that is idolatry. The first and most prevalent of sins.

  127. on 09 Jul 2011 at 11:46 pmRay

    God is the light of this world isn’t he, that is, isn’t this world dark except for that which comes from him?

    Jesus said to the people that they were the light of the world and it wasn’t idolatry. (Matt 5:14)

    Often when we worship Jesus as God, our light shines before men, and gives glory to God the Father who sent him into this world. (Matt 5:16)

    Jesus is the light of this world. (John 1:1-12)

  128. on 10 Jul 2011 at 7:32 amXavier

    We seem to have a kind of primordial obsession with inventing gods. Its almost as if it is somehow part of our DNA code.

    Yet, when we take into account the whole of the biblical witness, who would ever imagine that God is more than one? Because that is what is implied in such argumentations as the ones being raised here.

  129. on 10 Jul 2011 at 9:20 amRay

    I can’t imagine worhipping Jesus as being idolatry. Such an idea doesn’t hold up with life all around me. The creation itself testifies against such an idea.

    I went to a worship conference once. It was called a worship conference, not an honoring conference, though in our worhship we certainly did worship Christ.

    Our worship that weekend was all about Jesus.

    While we were worshipping him, people had revelations of him. The Lord interacted with us during our time of worhipping him.

    We all know that Jesus doesn’t involve himself in idolatry, nor does he encourage such a thing.

    It seems that men like to imagine their own doctrines and set them up as something to be admired, esteemed, and reverenced above the Word of God.

  130. on 10 Jul 2011 at 9:24 amRay

    Another thing that men are sometimes prone to do, is misinterpret what people say. I believe God is one, and that Jesus and God are one God not two.

    Jesus and God are one head over the body of Christ.

  131. on 10 Jul 2011 at 10:29 amXavier

    Ray

    In one of your comments you gave us the example that worshipping Jesus as God would not be bad. The problem with this sentiment is that for the biblical witness that proposition IS BAD!

    Only One can be worshipped AS God. This is the presupposition in Jesus’ sentiment: You Father are the only One true God [Jn 17.1, 3].

    Jesus of course is to be worshipped, sang to and praised AS MESSIAH. Period! Nothing less or more.

  132. on 10 Jul 2011 at 10:36 amDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “Jesus and God are one head over the body of Christ.”

    This is where you disagree with everyone else on this site. Jesus repeatedly said he will be sitting at the “RIGHT HAND OF GOD”. The “head” does not sit at the right hand of the body. Unless you have some sort of strange alien body where the head detaches and sits by itself next to the body. I think it is clear that God is the “head” and Jesus is “God’s right hand man”. Jesus is the one and only one that God and the Holy Spirit work through.

    You also said, “I believe God is one, and that Jesus and God are one God not two.”

    I understand that everybody at your church believes that Jesus and God are one God and not two, but that doesn’t make any sense, and it doesn’t make it true. That’s why I have repeatedly said that we should respectfully agree to disagree on this. This is a Unitarian site, which means that no-one else here believes that “Jesus and God are one God not two”.

    That goes against our basic beliefs that the most important commandment is, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” As Biblical Unitarians we believe the Lord our God is one God, not two person’s who somehow pretend to be one God!!!

    You also said, “It seems that men like to imagine their own doctrines and set them up as something to be admired, esteemed, and reverenced above the Word of God.”

    That’s exactly what people who say “Jesus and God together are one God not two”” are doing. There is nothing in the word of God that convinces us that Jesus and God together are one God. We go by our understanding of the Word of God, not by man made Trinitarian traditions that say nonsensical things like, “Jesus and God together are one God not two.”

    You are of course free to believe whatever you like, but you should understand that this is a Unitarian site, and our beliefs are different from the beliefs of the church that you attend…

  133. on 10 Jul 2011 at 10:45 amRay

    Jesus compared people to salt and I may compare Jesus to God, because he measures up to all that God is without falling short.

    When I do so, I do worship Christ and by doing so, I do honor God, and thereby do participate in something that is my calling of God.

    I will do so even as there are some that will seek to hinder me in my high calling, knowing that I will be condemned by them, unjustly judged, misunderstood, and caused to suffer all kinds of injustice, which is a part of my sonship, my inheritance in Christ.

    Xavier,

    What kind of Messiah is it that would not measure up to all that God is?

    It isn’t robbery to worship Jesus as the Christ who is all that God is. It’s even OK to say that he is God, because in a multitude of ways, in so many ways that I have not yet begun to fathom, he is God.

  134. on 10 Jul 2011 at 3:45 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “I will do so even as there are some that will seek to hinder me in my high calling, knowing that I will be condemned by them…and caused to suffer all kinds of injustice, which is a part of my sonship, my inheritance in Christ.”

    I am not condemning you or causing you to suffer all kinds of injustice. I actually recognize you as my fellow “brother in Christ”. I’m just pointing out that I (and others on this site) believe some of your beliefs are based on human traditions (and not the word of God), and as a result they are really nonsensical if you take the time to think about it.

    God’s word “IS NOT” nonsensical. It’s very simple and straightforward…

  135. on 10 Jul 2011 at 5:03 pmRay

    The more we see Jesus as God the Father , the more we see Jesus as he is. In so many ways he is as the Father is. It ‘s a good thing to see him that way. It makes good sense.

  136. on 10 Jul 2011 at 5:30 pmXavier

    Ray

    What kind of Messiah is it that would not measure up to all that God is?

    Only the Father is the Only One Who is truly God. And thus, the Only One Who is to be worshipped as such. Period.

  137. on 10 Jul 2011 at 6:56 pmRay

    I believe Jesus is as true as God is concerning all the things that God is. God said of himself that he is what he is. That’s what he told Moses and it is most certainly true.

    All of that which God is, Jesus is also. He’s just as true as God the Father, all the way through. Therefore men worship him as they worship God.

    When we worship Jesus in the same manner of heart that we ought to worship God, in spirit and in truth, we honor the Father, for we honor him who he hath sent into the world. Thereby we honor and worship God.

  138. on 10 Jul 2011 at 8:27 pmXavier

    I give up.

  139. on 10 Jul 2011 at 9:37 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “When we worship Jesus in the same manner of heart that we ought to worship God, in spirit and in truth, we honor the Father…”

    The first two commandments that God gave the Israelites cover this nicely.

    The 1st. Commandment says in Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.”

    Is Jesus a God that you are worshiping before God “The Father”???

    The 2nd. Commandment says in Exodus 20:4-5 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM OR SERVE THEM, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God…”

    Is Jesus something that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath???

    I would think so…

  140. on 11 Jul 2011 at 7:56 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    Just to add on to my above message (#139) here are a few more verses;

    Mark 12:32-33 says, “And the scribe said to him, ‘You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, AND THERE IS NO OTHER BESIDES HIM (33) And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself’…”

    Deuteronomy 4:35 also says, “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; THERE IS NO OTHER BESIDES HIM.”

    Deuteronomy 4:39 also says, “know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; THERE IS NO OTHER.”

    Isaiah 45:5 also says, “I am the LORD, and THERE IS NO OTHER, BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD…”

    Isaiah 45:14 also says, “Thus says the LORD: ….’Surely God is in you, and THERE IS NO OTHER, NO GOD BESIDES HIM’.”

    Isaiah 45:18 also says, “For thus says the LORD,who created the heavens who formed the earth and made it ‘I am the LORD, and THERE IS NO OTHER’.”

    Isaiah 45:21 also says, “….And THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME, a righteous God and a Savior; THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME.”

    Isaiah 45:22 also says, “”Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and THERE IS NO OTHER.”

    Isaiah 46:9 also says, “remember the former things of old; for I am God, and THERE IS NO OTHER; I am God, and THERE IS NONE LIKE ME.”

    1 Kings 8:60 also says, “0 that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; THERE IS NO OTHER.” (ESV – all emphasis above is mine).

    I’m sure there are also other verses that I am not aware of, but I think that I have made my point. BTW – I am not trying to force you to believe exactly what I believe. I am just trying to let you understand why I disagree with some of your beliefs, and why it is I believe what I believe.

    I really do hope you have a great night and God Bless…

  141. on 20 Sep 2011 at 1:14 pmjust_me

    Who alone shall you fear and serve?

    Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; and Him shalt thou serve, and by His name shalt thou swear.

    Who does your church exalt and sing praises to?

    2 Thessolonians 2:4 KJV Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    Here is jesus being exalted over God Himself by claiming he is author of eternal salvation!!!

    Hebrews 5:8-9 KJV Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Here is God’s truth that He alone is saviour:

    Isaiah 43:10-15 Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and {{beside Me there is no saviour.}} !!!!!! (authors emphasis)

    I have declared, and I have saved, and I have announced, and there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and I am God. Yea, since the day was I am He, and there is none that can deliver out of My hand; I will work, and who can reverse it?
    Thus saith the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and I will bring down all of them as fugitives, even the Chaldeans, in the ships of their shouting. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.

    Isaiah 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, beside Me there is no God; I have girded thee, though thou hast not known Me; That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am the LORD; and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

    Isaiah 45:14-17 Thus saith the LORD: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine; they shall go after thee, in chains they shall come over; and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee: Surely God is in thee, and there is none else, there is no other God.
    Verily Thou art a God that hidest Thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. They shall be ashamed, yea, confounded, all of them; they shall go in confusion together that are makers of idols. O Israel, that art saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Isaiah 45:18-25 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens, He is God; that formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD, and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a place of the land of darkness; I said not unto the seed of Jacob: ‘Seek ye Me in vain’; I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations; they have no knowledge that carry the wood of their graven image (perhaps a cross?- Authors addition), and pray unto a god that cannot save.

    Declare ye, and bring them near, yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath announced this from ancient time, and declared it of old? Have not I the LORD? And there is no God else beside Me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me.

    Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By Myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from My mouth in righteousness, and shall not come back, that unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Only in the LORD, shall one say of Me, is victory and strength; even to Him shall men come in confusion, all they that were incensed against Him. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    Peter’s words are a stark contrast to what God Himself has spoken. Notice how jesus’s name was exalted and given glory for healing and not God. Also, that jesus alone gives salvation.

    Acts 4:8-12 NIV Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

    God is available without going through a third party first:

    Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    This passage speaks the opposite with jesus being the only way.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    God says blood is not to be ingested but thrown out.

    Deuteronomy 12:23-25 Only be stedfast in not eating the blood; for the blood is the life; and thou shalt not eat the life with the flesh. Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it out upon the earth as water. Thou shalt not eat it; that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, when thou shalt do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD.

    Jesus says you will have no life in you unless you eat his flesh and blood. Notice how jesus says the one who “feeds” on him will have life as if jesus decides who lives or dies.

    John 6:53-57 NIV Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

    God has already redeemed Israel. He wants His people to repent of their sins and walk in obedience to Him.

    Isaiah 44:21-22 Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for thou art My servant; I have formed thee, thou art Mine own servant; O Israel, thou shouldest not forget Me. I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins; return unto Me, for I have redeemed thee.

    Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
    (God is not multiple gods or “trinity” but ONE)

    Doesn’t the very word “Christian” imply that you worship Christ? Should you be worshipping anyone or anything other than God?—You Decide.

  142. on 20 Sep 2011 at 4:43 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    just_me,

    Its an interesting argument you present. Question for you – the OT does point to a messiah, no? It seems for you that Jesus is not only not the messiah, but is probably (for lack of a better word) the ‘anti-Christ’?

    I agree with you that there is just one, uni-personal God and there is worship (latreuv) reserved only for Him. It does seem to me that much of the Christian religion makes Jesus into God+. They don’t deny the Father, but the Son is not only God but also a perfect man. That alone should disqualify the ‘co-equal’ clause of the trinity. But I digress.

    I believe that through (di) Jesus, we are reconciled with the Father. On our own, we cannot undo what Adam had done. I do not put Jesus above God, but believe what he said in Jn 1:18 – to know him is to know the Father. His acts, his life, his teachings – they did not come from him, they were from the Father. As Jesus himself said in Jn 17:3, the Father alone is the only true God.

  143. on 20 Sep 2011 at 6:39 pmLORRAINE

    Just me and others, It seems to me that the question of this post is “Should we worship Jesus? I wonder why this question has arised? Because without the worship of Jc there is really no need at all for the NT now is there? Maybe people are beginning to doubt the beliefs of ‘religion’ for which I have never seen these words ‘belief or religion’written in the OT never. Many are beginning to question the teachings of these and this is a sign of the end of times and the day of YHWH He Who Creates is nearing. People do not want to believe or do religion this way anymore they want truth, substantiation today. This world has been under many religions and beliefs for centruries, and has not yet shown any results of peace in mankind so that should raise some suspision alone. When just me used some scriptures from the Book of Isaiah these specifically told us that there is no other Savior. In Isaiah 42:vs. 8, 47:vs. 10,11,48:vs. 8-12 to 16-18 YHWh tells us who he is and of how he knows us and what we will do especially those of us with so much knowledge that will pervert us. This Theolosian teaching material will have no substance in the end and as the priest in Ecclesiastes says in wisdom is much grief and he that increases knowledge can increase sorrow for it is all vanity in the end. The day of YHWH is coming and I would suggest that those of you of fancy words or not it does not matter, Amos the prophet, 3:vs.7 was a herdsman and here he lets us know that YHWH does everything through his servants and prophets so we must take heed to what we need to do and that is to do the Law the Commandments and follow the Sabbth and get ready for that day of YHWH it is for His own sake and the rest are all his servants, in Ezekiel 36:vs.1,21,22,23 his name is Holy and read in Obadiah, vs. 15-18, and Hosea, 6: and Zechariah, 3: where a Branch shall be raised, also in Jeremiah, 23: 1-8 and Jeremiah, 33:vs. 14-16 and in Malachi 3:,4: the BRANCH will as in Isaiah 62: vs. 1,2 says a new name will be called from the seed of David from the mouth of YHWH at that time so I do not know why many of us are struggling with who we shall worship when it has not been called yet from the BRANCH of David from the mouth of YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS Jeremiah, 23:vs. 6, in which it will altogether be called anyway. So, one must decide to want the truth because in a belief there is room for it could be wrong and the facts are better especially in this case of the day of the end don’t you all think? Praise YHWH. Selah.

  144. on 20 Sep 2011 at 7:28 pmLORRAINE

    Tim, are any of you even reading this book of the OT? As to your statement on Adam, read in Isaiah, 43:vs.27,28 then in 44:vs.1-10, and 21-17 YHWH tells us from the womb Fear not, for He is our Redeemer, and has blotted out our sins from our first father Adam. He lets us know of how others will spring up and try to say that they are Him but do not follow for He is the first, the last, and besides Him there is no other. As I mentioned once before many of us were taught to read the back of the King James Bible only and somehow the Genesis through Malachi was overlooked. The beginning explains it all. Then read the book of Daniel because if you do not understand it then one may become lost. This book is why I have no need for revelations in the nt because in Daniel the words was stopped and the book was sealed until the end and this is now if you compare what is going on in the scriptures and our world. We have water shortages, financial and credit demise and many indifferences among peoples and land. Aren’t these the things that are going on just like it described in the OT? Things have not changed much since the days of old and in Zech and Daniel and Obadiah and others they prophesize and show us the many days to come.

  145. on 20 Sep 2011 at 7:30 pmLORRAINE

    Tim oh and add wars are going on too today.

  146. on 20 Sep 2011 at 11:53 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Lorraine,

    Your posts are fascinating. Difficult to follow at times but fascinating nonetheless.

    I’m still very new to serious Bible study (< 2 years). I am slowly re-reading Isaiah as the first pass through for me was a blur and it is a difficult read. But this time through, I am reading some commentary at the same time and it has helped at least from an historical perspective as to what was going on at the time it was written. But, I'm only up to 39.

    So, I am not here to proclaim my truth to anyone. Just here to ask questions and learn and share what makes the most sense to me.

  147. on 20 Sep 2011 at 11:59 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Lorraine,

    Are you saying that Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 53 are not speaking about a messiah?

  148. on 21 Sep 2011 at 1:51 amSarah

    God is available without going through a third party first:

    Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    This passage speaks the opposite with jesus being the only way.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    just_me,

    Even if we set aside the many Messianic prophecies in the OT, we know that God instituted a preisthood in Moses’ day. These priests were required to sacrifice the blood of bulls and goats on a regular basis for the sins of the people. The High Priest in particular acted as a mediator between God and his people by making a solemn yearly atonement sacrifice for the people. So the OT clearly shows the necessity of a third party intercessor between God and man through this arrangement.

    Yet the priesthood eventually disappeared about 2,000 years ago after Jerusalem was razed in 70 AD. Clearly the old priesthood was not sufficient to restore sinful mankind into good standing with God. Jesus said he is the only way to the father, and he paved that way by his once-for-all high priestly sacrifice of his own body. God gave his seal of approval by resurrecting Christ and exalting him to the right hand of his throne, as prophesied in Psalm 110:1.

  149. on 21 Sep 2011 at 4:34 amWolfgang

    Lorraine,

    you mentioned above

    Then read the book of Daniel because if you do not understand it then one may become lost. This book is why I have no need for revelations in the nt because in Daniel the words was stopped and the book was sealed until the end and this is now if you compare what is going on in the scriptures and our world.

    Is comparing Scripture with what’s going on in our world and using current happenings as “proof” for a certain interpretation really a good idea?

    I wonder … in particular since statements in Daniel indicate that the end of the age to which he was referring came almost 2000 years ago ….

    I suppose, it’s a matter of whose maths is correct? perhaps, we’ll just have to wait until about 2016 to see about that (wasn’t that the year you indicated as time frame for the end of the age ? ) ?

  150. on 21 Sep 2011 at 10:25 amSarah

    Here is jesus being exalted over God Himself by claiming he is author of eternal salvation!!!

    Hebrews 5:8-9 KJV Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Jesus did not make the claim himself. He acted as God’s supreme agent. This is an excellent article by Sean on the subject of representational deity:

    http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/audio/One%20God%20Conferences/2008/Sean%20Finnegan%20–%20Jesus%20is%20God.pdf

    Second, you ommitted the previous verses of that very same chapter in Hebrews, which explains that God APPOINTED Jesus:

    “And no one takes this honor for himself, but only when called by God, just as Aaron was. (5) So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you” (Hebrews 5:4-5 ESV)

    By your comments, it sounds to me as though you don’t accept the New Testament as scripture. Is that correct?

  151. on 21 Sep 2011 at 11:21 pmLORRAINE

    Sara no I do not accept the nt as scriptures to go by. Christianity formally was in the 4th century right around the time of the Carthage era and during that time the organization of slavery was in effect. So anyone who could run such a barbaric event as slavery would have to be questioned in my book on what their true intentions are with their writings of religion for people. In my opinion it was a form of control. The OT gives us more validations even though it too may have been tampered with it still gives more prophesies of the angles and the servants and the prophets of YHWH (Hebrew) for He Who Creates or The Lord Amos, 3: vs. 7, when referring to the Almighty King in the Book of Remembrance or The KJV Bible. But this is my opinion and the fact that slavery was a truth during the Carthage era to believe what these men wrote in the nt is to be scrutinized. Praise YHWH, Selah.

  152. on 21 Sep 2011 at 11:37 pmLORRAINE

    Wolfgang, In Daniel’s vision Dan. 11 and 12 the angel Gabriel is helping Daniel with his vision because although Daniel was an expert in visions and dreams he could not understand this particular vision for it was a prophecy for the far future. Daniel was told that he would long be laid to rest by this time but will stand in his lot at the end see that is the key word ‘end’ end of days. This is usually referred to the Day of YHWH The Lord, He Who Creates when YHWH will establish the new kingdom. It maybe 2016 or sooner and it maybe later but with what is going on today water shortages, wars, famine in Sudan the horn of Africa and lack of goodness and the right foods even here in America and many other in-differences, greed of faulty government and politics, and diseases it looks like rain or wrath to me. The Lord YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS Jeremiah 23:vs.1-8 and Jeremiah 33:vs. 14-16.

  153. on 21 Sep 2011 at 11:59 pmLORRAINE

    Tim no I am not saying that and yes it is speaking of the arm of YHWH from the seed of David that will be on the throne yes. The BRANCH of the seed of David and the seed of the Levites the priest, the two families most dear to YHWH will Sheppard over us. It does not say only one person will do this that is what I’m saying. Jeremiah, 23:vs. 1-8 and Jeremiah, 33:vs. 14-16. Praise YHWH.

  154. on 22 Sep 2011 at 12:10 amLORRAINE

    Sara, yes the Psalms 110, 1 is saying that but as I have said in other post that this book has been tampered with so therefore sometimes you have to use some sound judgment on the scriptures. Such as why would it be written only once in the whole OT? You do not find this being stated over and over which is a bit suspicious for me when most everything else that is prophesied is. Praise YHWH The Lord. Also Sara you say a lot what jc says does that bother you at all that it should be said by YHWH first and foremost, and not just once in the book of the OT?

  155. on 22 Sep 2011 at 10:21 amSarah

    Sara, yes the Psalms 110, 1 is saying that but as I have said in other post that this book has been tampered with so therefore sometimes you have to use some sound judgment on the scriptures.

    In what way has the book of Psalms been tampered with? Do you have evidence to present?

    Also Sara you say a lot what jc says does that bother you at all that it should be said by YHWH first and foremost, and not just once in the book of the OT?

    No, it doesn’t bother me at all, because I believe he was given authority to act as on behalf of the Father (Matt 10:40, Luke 4:18). It does not diminish God’s supremacy in the least to obey Jesus, since Jesus was speaking the Father’s words (Jn 14:10). He also expresssly said he was not claiming glory for himself (Jn 8:54).

    It is God who gives Jesus his glory, and therefore Jesus’ glory is clearly not equal to God’s glory – but it is still greater than the rest of creation. And rightly so, given what Jesus has done for us.

  156. on 22 Sep 2011 at 10:36 amSarah

    Christianity formally was in the 4th century right around the time of the Carthage era and during that time the organization of slavery was in effect. So anyone who could run such a barbaric event as slavery would have to be questioned in my book on what their true intentions are with their writings of religion for people.

    I think you’ll find that the bloggers on this site have some serious disagreement with certain aspects of “formalized religion” as defined by the councils. But true Christianity did not begin in the 4th century AD. It began at the time of Christ. And while I am not a formally trained scholar, my understanding is that the manuscripts we have for the NT date back to 200’s AD, long before the age of institutionalized Christianity.

    As for the issue of slavery, I am not sure I understand how this impacts whether or not Christianity is true. Slavery in one form or another has been around for millennia. Jesus ultimately came to “set the captives free” – his mission was absolutely contrary to the notion of slavery.

  157. on 22 Sep 2011 at 1:11 pmLORRAINE

    Sara regardless of how early Christianity began this is why I said it was formally institutionalized and sanctioned by the pope and legalized by Constantine in 311cead and slavery was in the making of the Carthage era which was in this time of the conquering of Hannibal and Nubian from Alexander the Great and the Romans for which Constantine was one of its rulers and Carthage was wanted by everyone it was the front door to Afrik, N. Africa where all the goodies were and are still being exploited and used up until this day. From Wiki,….. Carthage also became a center of early Christianity. In the first of a string of rather poorly reported Councils at Carthage a few years later, no fewer than seventy bishops attended. Tertullian later broke with the mainstream that was represented more and more by the bishop of Rome, but a more serious rift among Christians was the Donatist controversy, which Augustine of Hippo spent much time and parchment arguing against. In 397 at the Council at Carthage, the biblical canon for the western Church was confirmed. Constantina’s endorsement of the ‘tradition’ was a turning point for Early Christianity. In 313, Constantine issued the Edict of Milan legalizing Christian worship. The emperor became a great patron of the Church, and set a precedent for the position of the Christian Emperor within the Church and the notion of orthodoxy,Christendom, and ecumenical councils that would be followed and or ‘forced’ for centuries as the State church of the Roman Empire from Roman’s taxation and of its oppression it had all began. Therefore the nt was written by these rulers of Rome and this is why I deeply question its truth. Praise the one and only Savior YHWH The Lord Our Righteousness Jeremiah, 23:vs.5-8. Zechariah, 3:vs.1-10 and Obadiah, vs.15,17,18 and in all of these scriptures and others in the OT I do not see the name jc anywhere and in Isaiah, 42:vs.6-9 YHWH tells us of any new things that happens seems like at least one of YHWh’s prophets would have prophesied jc as they have done with all others in the OT or at least envisioned him and called him by his name jc, or something, and again nowhere in the OT is the name jc mentioned. Peace Praise YHWH.

  158. on 22 Sep 2011 at 5:29 pmDoubting Thomas

    Loraine,
    You’ve mentioned slavery several times as a reason to reject Christianity. The early (original) Christians didn’t have any slaves. According to the early Christians all men were equal in the eyes of God, slave and non-slave alike. However slaves are common throughout the O.T. writings. For example Exodus 21:26,

    “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye.”

    Also Leviticus 19:20-21, “If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free; (21) but he shall bring his compensation to the LORD, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering.”

    Also Deuteronomy 15:12, “If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.”

    Also Exodus 20:10, “but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.”

    Also Deuteronomy 5:21, “And you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

    Like Sarah said above, “Slavery has been around for many millenniums”. I don’t think it is fair to reject Christianity just because later on, in the 4th. century, some (so called) Christians began to own slaves. Even though these people called themselves Christians I don’t believe they were real Christians at all. Christians due their best to follow the teachings of Christ, and you can tell by their behavior that these later Christians ignored the teachings of Y’shua and replaced them with man made doctrines, and worldly ethics and morals…

  159. on 22 Sep 2011 at 5:45 pmDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine,
    Last night, just before I went to bed, I noticed that you had left me a message with some questions in it. I believe you were asking why I believe only the 10 commandments, Y’shua’s commandments (and teachings), and the modified form of Noah’s law that is found in Acts 15:19-20 apply to us Gentile Christians. I can’t remember what thread it was under (in other words, I can’t find it). If you could post a short message in the thread it will come back up in the top 10 comments again.

    I just wanted to let you know that I’m not ignoring your postings… 🙂

  160. on 22 Sep 2011 at 10:22 pmLORRAINE

    Doubting Thomas, no I did not say that I do not go by the nt because of slavery I am aware that slavery was a way of life in those days of old but it Christianity was legalized in 311 of Constantine and the Roman Empire is exactly why I do not go by the nt. The bishops and popes then and now have some indifferences of themselves as being YHWH’s chosen son and firstborn Israel which since Christianity the son is now suppose to be jc as YHWH’s son is also why I do not go by the nt, Exodus, 4:22,23 and this jc is not truth to me. Where does it say this in the OT where? It was a mythical forklore made by slaves wanting a savior and who questioned their God when the oppression and taxation reigned over them by the Romans. If the criteria of the book of Lamentations, and Obadiah and Ezekiel 16 does not fit then one cannot say that they are Yudah, Yerusalem, Jacob and Israel the ones who were sent out to the four corners of the earth. The Ten Lost Tribes thanks to the Assyrians Babylon and our transgressions. But this is the real purpose for YHWH to gather his jewels Jacob, Israel to bring the light back unto the Gentiles and others to come back to YHWH in Isaiah, 49:vs.6 so it is alright. Also, now that we do not have slavery here in America well not as it was in the biblical days and in the 1400s, for there is still a captivity as long as there are indifferences, and inequality and a certain persons of the dominion of wealth. But the good thing is that the commandments you provided in your post will not have to be honored anymore although the Sabbath is still in play. You say that the Gentiles are to obey only ten commandments so thanks for clearing that up for me. I think that I will go to other posts now this enough said and Praise YHWH, Peace.

  161. on 22 Sep 2011 at 10:24 pmLORRAINE

    Oh I mean Folklore lol I’m really tired.

  162. on 10 May 2012 at 8:01 amXavier

    Got a question regarding the TYPE of worship given to Jesus in the NT. Would appreciate anyone’s comment.

    There seems to be a distinction being made by the NT writers regarding the worship given to the Son as opposed to the Father.

    For example, NT Greek scholar James Dunn notes that “cultic worship or service (latreuein, latreia) as such is never offered to Christ…bearing in mind that the latreuein word group is the nearest expression for the offering of ‘cultic worship’…” Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?, pp. 15, 27.

    Should further definition be made when we talk about any sort of “religious” worship that may be given to the Son in the NT?

  

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