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I was taking a break from most everything when I was out-of-town on vacation last week. This week I’m taking a break from getting into the second section of my paper/series to post something I ran across on the web awhile back.  While I haven’t fully had a chance to dig real deep into this site’s content, what I have found I believe to be quite good.

The site I’m talking about is called “The Trinity Delusion” and you can find it at this address: http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html

Not only does it contain an immense wealth of content (which I invite everyone to check out for themselves), I find the guy who started it and writes it, to be very interesting.  Here’s a little of his story (as he lists on his own “About” page):

This website was created by a former Trinitarian. The doctrine of the Trinity had been an unquestioned central belief of mine since my childhood until about 2002-2003. I am writing these words in my 52nd year of life. I now believe that the Scriptures clearly intend to inform us that the one and only true God is the Father of Jesus and his Father alone and there is not a single reason to believe in the existence of a three person God. I had once promoted Trinitarian doctrine with zealous fervor. I had also been deceived into thinking it was necessary for me to believe this doctrine and that the Scriptural evidence indicated it was most definitely the truth. But now, having spent much time researching and examining this matter, there is absoloutely no doubt in my mind that this doctrine is false. My present convictions are far stronger than my past conviction as a believer in the doctrine of the Trinity. Quite honestly, it is a wonder to me how I, or anyone else, could have ever believed in this doctrine. But such is the nature of deception.

I believe it was sometime around the autumn of 2001 when I first investigated our own Trinitarian claims concerning several verses of Scripture just to see how our evidence would stand up under severe scrutiny. At first, I really did not think I would find this doctrine to be totally wrong. I just thought it was possible that I might find our doctrine was not 100.000% accurate. But I immediately began to see that our claims were not anywhere near as solid as we Trinitarians liked to believe and our claims were really quite feeble when the facts were reasonably and honestly appreciated. So rather than spending all my time looking for reasons to justify the doctrine of the Trinity, as Trinitarians typically do, I decided to inquire further and asked myself instead whether our claims were honest attempts at seeking the truth or whether they might be rather a misguided attempt to promote a mistaken teaching. And I began to now ask myself if there were other good reasons why I should not believe this doctrine. Over the next few months, I discovered our claims were not honest attempts at all and my investigation into my own doctrine led to several years of personal research. I found all our evidence to be nothing but cleverly contrived interpretations, cherry-picked translations, biased use of variant manuscript readings, and disingenuous philosophical rationalizations, all expressly designed to fit and suit our doctrine of the Trinity. Our interpretations, translations, manuscript preferences, and theological justifications, were simply a product of a prejudiced modus operandi expressly crafted to suit the Trinitarian agenda. Apart from Trinitarian claims, I also found mountains of other historical and Scriptural evidence which clearly showed that I should not believe in this doctrine but something else altogether. I couldn’t find a single reason in the Scriptures to think I should believe in the existence of a three person God since all the reasons set forth by Trinitarians to defend and promote this doctrine turned out to be nothing but self-serving wishful thinking. And the world of Trinitarianism turned out to be nothing more than a self-reaffirmation mutual admiration society.

He goes on to further say:

As a former Trinitarian, I personally had to check some serious honesty issues at the door in order to examine and subsequently abandon this doctrine. Personal humility and integrity without theological prejudice is a prerequisite for the truth. In these times, one does not encounter many without theological prejudice. But to seek and find truth we must seek to discover it without prejudice or we will never accept it when we encounter it. I now fervently believe that Trinitarian theologians and apologists are self deceived men who, having first deceived themselves, then justify for themselves the deceiving of others in the same manner, and engaging in this rampant hypocrisy, have fashioned themselves after the Pharisees whom Jesus encountered and refuse to entertain the possiblity that they do so. I also now see how extremely harmful this doctrine is to the Christian walk and how this devilish lie blinds and robs people of their identity and victory in Jesus.

And also:

I try not to adopt and wear any labels or fly any banner but “Christ” since to do so means I have defined myself according to a creedal label or belief system and to define myself in such a way would mean that my beliefs are thereafter and henceforth fixed and I can no longer change and no longer walk down the road of learning. I believe that to adopt such creeds and named belief systems is arrogant and prideful. To be a disciple of Jesus means we are learners, disciples. Unless men are hunting you down to kill you for the sake of his name, you are not finished learning from Jesus. We must be ever learning from him and changing as we learn and grow with Christ, being conformed to his image and being transformed into his image from glory unto glory. We will never intellectually know and understand everything there is to know. We only see in part as in the pale and distorted reflection of a bronze mirror. Those who are “Oneness” or Modalists will find that I do not agree with their beliefs. Those who espouse Arian theology will find that I do not agree with their beliefs. Those who are Biblical Unitarians or Christadelphians or Socinians will find many common points of agreement with my beliefs but they will also find significant differences. If you just can’t stand it that I don’t put a label on my own current beliefs, or that I have not shopped around to adopt a pre-packaged belief system, that is your problem, not mine. I already have and know my God and I do not need extra idols for insurance. If you just can’t stand the idea of being alone in your beliefs, and you rather seek the confirmation, the assurances and the approval of other men, then you are admittedly unteachable by the Spirit of God and have not humbled yourself to learn from our Teacher, Jesus Christ. Jesus died alone when everyone else fled and abandoned him. He who was approved by God, Jesus, is the one who confirms us, not men approving men. Humble yourself before God’s Word of Truth. His name: Jesus. His sheep know his voice. He is the Father’s Word of Truth and through Him we are taught by God our Father. Put no creedal idol between you and your Teacher.

I for one like this guy. I don’t know if I would agree with him theologically on everything – though on the trinity subject from what I’ve read so far from him I certainly do.  But most of all I like his honesty and his approach.  It is very refreshing and something that more people would greatly benefit from if they too took a similar attitude as his.  Bravo Brother!

94 Responses to “The Trinity Delusion – a great online resource”

  1. on 19 Aug 2011 at 5:58 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    I try not to adopt and wear any labels or fly any banner but “Christ”

    Amen. What is emerging in my mind is that even the apostles argued over theology questions (Paul vs. Peter for one example). It seems as we move away from the primary message of love – love God, love your neighbor – factions form and the primary message gets lost.

  2. on 19 Aug 2011 at 8:40 pmDoubting Thomas

    Excellent article Ron!!!

  3. on 20 Aug 2011 at 7:33 amXavier

    Tim

    …as we move away from the primary message of love – love God, love your neighbor – factions form and the primary message gets lost.

    The “primary message of love” is a message!

    Also, if you confess “Christ” you are adopting/wearing/flying a “banner/label”.

    I think the biblical phrase of “speaking the truth in love” perfectly encapsulates my point. In other words, there is a particular kind of “love” [agape] the Bible talks about. And it is not made distinct or detached from the thrust of the gospel message regarding the sound doctrine of our lord Jesus.

    Check out my article for more: http://inthenameofwhowhat.blogspot.com/2009/09/whers-love.html

  4. on 20 Aug 2011 at 4:05 pmDoubting Thomas

    Xavier,
    One of my favorite hymns is “They will know we are Christians by our love”. Although I believe the proper name of the hymn is “We are one in the spirit”…

  5. on 20 Aug 2011 at 4:24 pmXavier

    DT

    What the..?!

  6. on 20 Aug 2011 at 8:41 pmDoubting Thomas

    Xavier,
    I guess what I’m saying is that I believe that love is the main thing and everything else is secondary. Matthew 22:36-40;

    “‘Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?’ (37) And he said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (38) This is the great and first commandment. (39) And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (40) On these two commandments depend(E) all the Law and the Prophets’.”

    I don’t agree with everything that Paul said but he did say in 1 Corinthians 13:13;

    “So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

    Having all the “correct” doctrines will do us no good if we don’t have love for one another…

  7. on 21 Aug 2011 at 12:11 amRay

    Would it be correct to say that the heaven and the earth were created by the Bible?

  8. on 21 Aug 2011 at 2:21 amRay

    Would I be telling people the truth if I said that the world was created by God according to Jesus, and that’s what Paul meant when he wrote that all things were created by him? (Col 1:16)

    Is Col 1:16 written to say that according to Jesus all things were created, and thereby we know that God created all?

    Does Col 1:18 say that God is the firstborn from the dead?

    Does Col 1:18 say that God is the head of the body, or is it speaking of Christ as being the head of the body?

    Doesn’t Col 1:20 say that God purposed to reconciled all things (such as shall be reconciled) by Christ, by Christ’s blood which was shed on the cross, and his (Christ’s) sufferings, unto God himself?

    And doesn’t that include more than just people on this earth, but also that which is in heaven, and couldn’t “that” also include some things that are not people, even though it may well indeed include many people?

    I think we should be all for delivering people out of any delusion.

  9. on 21 Aug 2011 at 6:02 amXavier

    DT

    Having all the “correct” doctrines will do us no good if we don’t have love for one another…

    Okay I guess you missed my point or I did not explain myself.

    What you just pointed to is a “doctrine” in and of itself. You follow?

    Furthermore, the Bible talks about a certaing kind of “love” that will define Christians and a key to that is a “love for the truth”. Now, what is “truth”? I believe is everything God has taught us in His Son: the gospel of the KOG; One God; etc.

    Maybe you would agree with what Paul says here as well:

    The man of sin will come with the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous and wonderful signs. But they will be lies. He will use everything that God disapproves of to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them.

    That’s why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie. Then everyone who did not LOVE THE TRUTH, but was delighted with evil, will be condemned. 2 Thess 2.9-12

  10. on 21 Aug 2011 at 5:08 pmDoubting Thomas

    Xavier,
    You said, “Furthermore, the Bible talks about a creating kind of “love” that will define Christians and a key to that is a “love for the truth”. Now, what is “truth”? I believe is everything God has taught us in His Son: the gospel of the KOG; One God; etc…”

    Yes we should all have a love for the truth, but Y’shua clearly said, “And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (40) On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

    So the second most important thing is to “love your neighbor as yourself”. I was once a deceived Trinitarian who just accepted what the religious authorities claimed was the truth. Now I believe that I have found the “real” truth about the coming Kingdom of God, one God, etc… Does this mean I should condemn my neighbors because they still believe the religious authorities???

    I don’t think so. To love your neighbor means to have compassion, empathy and understanding. Like the old saying goes; “If not for the grace of God there goes I.” I don’t think we should look down on people whose beliefs are different from our own. We should just try to teach and edify them as best we can. God can see their hearts and knows if their hearts are close to him (or long for him) or if they are really trying to love God and please him.

    It is not for us to judge or condemn. Y’shua said in Luke 6:36-38;

    “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. (37) Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; (38) give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

    I’m not trying to be argumentative. I just think we should love our neighbor and try our best not to judge or condemn them. I get frustrated at times trying to reason with Trinitarians, but I try not to judge or condemn them. Only the person that can see into people’s hearts is capable of judging or condemning anyone. From my understanding of the scriptures this person is Y’shua, the Son of God, our Messiah, King and Savior…

  11. on 21 Aug 2011 at 10:23 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You asked, “Would it be correct to say that the heaven and the earth were created by the Bible?”

    The way I see it, the Bible is a collection of ancient Christian writings. The heavens and earth were created long before these writings were ever written. So I think it would be wrong “to say that he heavens and the earth were created by the bible.”

    As for your other questions, I don’t study Paul’s writings. I get very frustrated whenever I try to study his writings. Maybe someone else from this site that actually does study his writings might answer your other questions about Colossians . I hope you have a great night and God Bless… 🙂

  12. on 22 Aug 2011 at 9:03 amXavier

    DT

    Does this mean I should condemn my neighbors because they still believe the religious authorities???

    No, you should seek to help them “love the truth” of which the Bible speaks about and to which you are a slave to. Since it has taught you to “love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you”.

  13. on 22 Aug 2011 at 12:09 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    DT/Xavier,

    I agree with Xavier that there is always some ‘doctrine’. I think we really need to define what our essential doctrines are to discuss any further.

    Below are my personal beliefs and I would not start a church or new denomination proclaiming I have the inspired word from God on this. Only, it is what makes sense to me (at this point in my walk) from my bible study, my prayer, and from observation of others faith and capacity to discern what the bible says. The essentials to me:

    – love God
    – love people
    – Christ is the Son of God and reconciled man to God

    I wonder if even that last one is essential. I think it would flow from #1 if you truly seek God. As Jesus said, all of the law and all of the prophets flow from the first two (and I think #2 flows from #1 as well).

    Some unessentials (for me):

    – accepting every verse in the OT/NT as from God
    – the kingdom and what that means. Yes, I think it is important that we have eternal life in a kingdom, but the nature of that kingdom (when, where, leadership structure) does not matter to me. I trust in God’s plan, whatever the details are. Debating them is just candy for the mind.
    – Amillenial vs premillenial vs ‘postmillenial’ – all mind candy.
    – Calvinism vs free will – mind candy.
    – Baptism – still undecided if this is essential and if it requires water. The thief on the cross was not baptized, not with water anyway.
    – Conforming to the doctrines of an earthly church, which for most includes the trinity.

  14. on 22 Aug 2011 at 12:52 pmSarah

    DT,

    So the second most important thing is to “love your neighbor as yourself”. I was once a deceived Trinitarian who just accepted what the religious authorities claimed was the truth. Now I believe that I have found the “real” truth about the coming Kingdom of God, one God, etc… Does this mean I should condemn my neighbors because they still believe the religious authorities???

    DT, you are exactly right. Someone I know is enduring a high level of persecution right now by some people who have publicly proclaimed this person a heretic for scrutinizing the doctrine of the trinity. It is causing this person a great deal of emotional and relational distress on many fronts. How, exactly, does this sort of treatment reflect the love of Christ? If the tables were turned, would these people then want someone to proclaim THEM heretical, slander them, and ostracize them? “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is not some trite saying – we are called to live it out. The way we treat others is concrete proof of exactly what spirit lives in us. And ultimately, God promises to judge each of us according to the manner in which we judge others. That applies to all of us who name the name of Christ, no matter what side of the docrinal fence we are on.

  15. on 22 Aug 2011 at 3:38 pmDoubting Thomas

    Tim,
    I agree with the essentials that you mentioned in msg. #13 above…

    Sarah,
    You said, “How, exactly, does this sort of treatment reflect the love of Christ?”

    I agree. The answer of course is that it doesn’t reflect the love of Christ…

    Xavier,
    You said, “No, you should seek to help them “love the truth” of which the Bible speaks about.”

    I agree. On the “Who is Jesus?” website I try to help the Trinitarians there to see the truth about there being “one” God ect… These Trinitarians claim to love the truth, but it seems to me they are just interested in defending their doctrines regardless of how anyone tries to show them the scriptures etc… that demonstrate that the Trinity doctrine is not based on scripture.

    I’m not used to the adversarial nature of the site. People making jokes about the other person’s beliefs etc… I really don’t think that this adversarial positioning is helping anyone to convince the other of what they believe to be the truth. I will continue to try, in my own way, to influence the Trinitarians there, but I think that the overall hostile atmosphere there will make it quite difficult to get anyone to listen to the other sides point of view.

    At least that’s the way I see it anywaze…

  16. on 22 Aug 2011 at 4:06 pmXavier

    DT

    I’m not used to the adversarial nature of the site. People making jokes about the other person’s beliefs etc…

    Your right.

    Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. Rom 12.17

  17. on 22 Aug 2011 at 5:29 pmRon S.

    Sarah,

    You said:
    “The way we treat others is concrete proof of exactly what spirit lives in us. ”

    I agree completely. And this is the BIG thing that bugs me about the great majority of hard-core trinitarians (those who zealously defend the trinity) I’ve either encountered first hand or have heard/seen in debates. By and large they tend to be overly hostile, condensending, snide, smug, hollier-than-thou, mean-spirited, and quite often even down right nasty (harsh). I even wrote about how extreme this can be in a post here on KR just last year (http://lhim.org/blog/2010/05/25/the-trinity-brings-out-an-ugly-spirit/).

    To me this speaks volumes and is real proof of just who/what inspires (or has even ultimately authored) the doctrine of the trinity. If it were really God’s truth, it wouldn’t be defended in such an ugly way. Truth stands on its own – especially when it really comes from God. The spirit of God and his Messiah/Christ wouldn’t promote such ugliness and vile. It really is the spirit of anti-Christ in so many ways.

  18. on 23 Aug 2011 at 2:00 pmSarah

    I even wrote about how extreme this can be in a post here on KR just last year (http://lhim.org/blog/2010/05/25/the-trinity-brings-out-an-ugly-spirit/).

    Thanks, Ron. That was a good article. The person in my life who is being persecuted has been called arrogant for daring to question the conclusions of ~2,000 years’ worth of learned men. This person is has only just begun studying the monotheistic view and is now feeling intimidated by the backlash. I passed along the article you wrote as proof that it’s a widespread response. I believe that God honors the one who tests all doctrine against scripture, no matter how many people reached may have already reached a certain conclusion beforehand.

  19. on 23 Aug 2011 at 5:02 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Sarah,

    I hope your friend is respectful and tactful (not that I have any reason to think otherwise). At our church, we had someone who wasn’t and he confronted one of the pastors in a small group setting. He’s gone now and I know a few people were turned off by his approach. I pat myself on the back that I got past ‘him’ and did start researching on my own. But, one of the first discussions I had with my wife about it turned into the biggest argument we have ever had and largely because my attitude was snide and sarcastic. So, I know it is not just trinitarians who can be condescending.

    I am hopeful that this doctrine is seeing its last days but people like your friend are still the pioneers getting the arrows in the back. But never before have ‘common folk’ had so much access to scholarship and open discussion with other truth seeking people. I think we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

    As for relying on the centuries of scholarship to defend their position, this to me is really just capitulation. Does God require of us the belief of a doctrine that only a scholar can defend?

  20. on 23 Aug 2011 at 6:19 pmAngela

    Tim,
    I think you make some great points above.
    1)

    my attitude was snide and sarcastic. So, I know it is not just trinitarians who can be condescending.

    This is so true, that ALL of us, are capable of acting in a way that is not glorifying our Lord, and we must be careful with our tongues, our attitudes, and pray for the ability to speak truth in love and humility, not pride and arrogance. Most of us who have reached this truth, have done so, due to our many hours of study, and it’s easy to look down on someone who hasn’t put the time and effort in… yet it is so important to encourage their Bible study, ask lots of questions, and rather than TELL what we believe, ASK them what they believe and why, to lead them to their own questions and research. This is not easy to do, and I struggle with this, but I think it’s really the best method, that encourages them, rather than puts them on the defensive attack mode. It’s not fun or respectful to another person to be backed into a corner, by someone who is out to prove they are smarter and more right than me. I will not invite them to my next party… 🙂

    2)

    But never before have ‘common folk’ had so much access to scholarship and open discussion with other truth seeking people. I think we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

    I totally agree! The internet has provided a way for us to communicate, to educate, and to discuss openly, without fear of being ostracized or made to feel like a heretic for questioning, doubting, wondering, seeking. In the old days, Trinity Christian broadcasting and publishing prevented anything that didn’t line up with their idea of truth to be suppressed and buried. silenced. but no more! We are free and it is liberating! We are just beginning to see a truth revolution sweep across the nation and the entire world!

  21. on 23 Aug 2011 at 10:04 pmDoubting Thomas

    Tim,
    You said, “Does God require of us the belief of a doctrine that only a scholar can defend?”

    I think Y’shua answers that question in Matthew 11:25; “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children.”

    I believe that if God’s truth is revealed to little children”, then the message must be simple and easy to understand. In other words “no parodoxes” that us mere mortals could not possibly understand or comprehend…

    Angela,
    You said, “I totally agree! The internet has provided a way for us to communicate, to educate, and to discuss openly, without fear of being ostracized or made to feel like a heretic for questioning, doubting, wondering, seeking.”

    I also “totally agree” with what both you and Tim are saying. I have my doubts about some things, but I don’t make any special claims to having the truth. I just have my own way of looking at things. In the past anyone like myself (who said they had doubts about some of the N.T. writings) would have been “ostracized or made to feel like a heretic for questioning, doubting, wondering, seeking.”

    But, on this site I’m among a group of people that are also “questioning, doubting, wondering, seeking” and even if others don’t agree with me they don’t insult me, or judge me, or condemn me. They accept my right to have my doubts, and to question things that don’t seem to make sense to me. You don’t know how much this means to me. Only my closest Christian friends up here in Canada accept me just the way I am.

    But, on this site there seems to be many that are willing to accept me just the way I am…

  22. on 24 Aug 2011 at 9:36 amSarah

    In the old days, Trinity Christian broadcasting and publishing prevented anything that didn’t line up with their idea of truth to be suppressed and buried. silenced. but no more! We are free and it is liberating! We are just beginning to see a truth revolution sweep across the nation and the entire world!

    Amen, Angela!

  23. on 02 Dec 2012 at 11:00 pmJohn

    Regarding this issue:

    Consider:

    In Phil 2:10 it says, “Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” This is a quote from Isaiah 45:23 where clearly the reference is to God and not only God but Yahweh. See context.

    Consider also that Nathaniel titles Jesus as the “King of Israel” also a a title given to YAHWEH from Isaiah 46.

    He is the creator Hebrews 1

    God is three persons in love with each other. This is the trinity.

  24. on 02 Dec 2012 at 11:11 pmJohn

    Regarding this issue:

    Consider:

    In Phil 2:10 it says, “Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” This is a quote from Isaiah 45:23 where clearly the reference is to God and not only God but Yahweh. See context.

    Consider also that Nathaniel titles Jesus as the “King of Israel” also a a title given to YAHWEH from Isaiah 46.

    Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel

    and his Redeemer, the LORD (yahweh) of hosts:

    “I am the first (alpha) and I am the last(omega);

    besides me there is no god.

    He is the creator Hebrews 1

    God is three persons in love with each other. This is the trinity. He submitted to the Father, He prayed to the Father. Thomas worshipped Him “My Lord and My God”

  25. on 03 Dec 2012 at 9:15 amJaco

    John,

    I’ve never been able to grasp the trinitarian logic behind their “proofs…” Your arguments go like this:

    Phil. 2:10 is a quote from Isaiah 45:23 applied to Jesus
    Isaiah 45:23 is applied to Yahweh
    Therefore Jesus is Yahweh

    Makes sense, right? Wrong! Otherwise you would also have to admit (if your argumentation is consistent, that is) that:

    Rev. 2:26, 27 is a quote from Ps. 2:9 applied to the saints
    Ps. 2:9 is applied to Jesus whom you worship as Yahweh
    Therefore the saints are Yahweh…

    Not so clever, is it?

    Whatever the trinity is, it’s an artificially sustained invention that should have gone extinct long time ago…

  26. on 03 Dec 2012 at 10:12 amSarah

    John,

    You quoted only a fragment of a sentence, and then matched it to Isaiah 45:23. This wrenches Paul’s thought completely out of context. His full sentence states exactly who was God and who was not:

    “Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”

    (Phil 2:9-11)

  27. on 03 Dec 2012 at 1:38 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Well said, Jaco and Sarah. As for John 20:28, two points:

    1 – In John 14, Jesus is speaking to Thomas and Philip and says “If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” I see John 20:28 as Thomas’ recognition of what Jesus was teaching him. He is not calling Jesus God but recognizing that the Father is in him.

    2 – John sums up his gospel in 20:31, “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” Why would John’s purpose be to establish Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God if Jesus were in fact God?

  28. on 03 Dec 2012 at 3:46 pmSarah

    Exactly, Tim. The surrounding context of John’s gospel must be considered. In addition to your points, I would just add that Jesus told Mary not a few verses earlier that he was ascending to “…your God and my God”. Thats a far cry from telling Mary “I am your God.”

    John also mentioned one other argument that I have noticed gaining prominence in Christian media: “God is three persons in love with each other.”

    This is a very troubling notion that has no Biblical basis whatsoever. The argument goes like this: God is love. And because God is love, he must be tripersonal. He cannot be love if there was a time when he had no one to love.

    But the logic behind this argument is flawed on many levels. What about the fact that God is love suggests he must be tripersonal? Why not bipersonal or quadpersonal? And further, what are we to do with the fact that God is also a consuming fire? Surely God did not pour out his wrath upon the other persons of the trinitiy for eternity past? Why must his love be expressed for all eternity but not his wrath? Especially since most trinitarians hold to the traditional view of hell, that the wicked will be tortured consciously forever in keeping with God’s infinite wrath?

  29. on 03 Dec 2012 at 5:36 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    I know CS Lewis used that argument in ‘Mere Christianity’. But, why would God have us ‘love our neighbor as ourself’ if the whole idea of self-love did not exist? I think scripture clearly destroys that whole argument that God must be multi-personal in order to know love.

  30. on 03 Dec 2012 at 6:34 pmSarah

    But, why would God have us ‘love our neighbor as ourself’ if the whole idea of self-love did not exist?

    Excellent point!

  31. on 04 Dec 2012 at 12:57 amJaco

    Tim,

    You’re spot-on. On another site I engaged a few Evangelicals (with very limited knowledge, since they only read populist Evangelical books printed en masse). And my question was simple: If I see Jesus in someone else, does it make that person Jesus himself? If I see God in Jesus, does that by default render Jesus God Himself?

    …suddenly John 20:28 got a new meaning (a biblical one, finally) to them…

  32. on 04 Dec 2012 at 2:21 amWolfgang

    @Tim

    But, why would God have us ‘love our neighbor as ourself’ if the whole idea of self-love did not exist?

    the command of “love your neighbor as yourselves” is not an encouragement based on “the idea of self-love” … else, it would follow that the more we become egotistical (self-lovers), the better we would love our neighbor ..

    God’s command is to love your neighbor as you desire to be loved by your neighbor …. in accordance with the golden rule of do to your neighbor as you would like for them to do to you

  33. on 04 Dec 2012 at 4:06 amTim (aka Antioch)

    Wolfgang,

    I don’t equate egotism with love, it would be like considering a stalker as being loving. Obsession is not love. I see the ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ to mean ‘consider your neighbor as you do yourself’ – to put yourself in another’s shoes. That, to me, is the basis of compassion.

  34. on 04 Dec 2012 at 4:42 amtimothy

    Wolfgang and all,

    I fully agree:
    “the command of “love your neighbor as yourselves” is not an encouragement based on “the idea of self-love” … else, it would follow that the more we become egotistical (self-lovers), the better we would love our neighbor ..”

    I must point out that “agape” love is “the love of GOD”.

    Matthew 22:36-40 (kjv)
    Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt [love]agapeseis the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. …

    agapeseis= the imperative for demonstrating agape love, This is benevolence toward another at cost to ones-self, GOD’s unconditional love, the framework of our relationship with God

    John 3: (NASB)
    16 “For God so [loved] agapao the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    agapao= verb form of agape

    Attributes of agape love:

    1 Corinthians 13:

    NASB
    4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,

    5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

    6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;

    7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all
    things.

    8 Love never fails

    KJV
    4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

    5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

    6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

    7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

    8 Charity never faileth

    I believe Jesus Christ loves GOD and loves humankind as he loves himself.

    agapao se'( I love you )

    🙂

  35. on 01 Dec 2013 at 7:47 pmPtochos Lazaros

    Hello everyone
    I’ve tried to find true Christians who were released totally from “Trinity” and “Immortal soul” but it’s very hard to find those in my country Vietnam. Now I post some important things that I believe with expectation of meeting who have the same beliefs with me:
    – “The Holy Spirit” is Jehovah, not an active force/power although The Spirit can manifest active forces/powers.
    – The Father is just a Holy Spirit, The Son now is also a Spirit. A man (or a soul) living in flesh is a spirit in a body and his spirit can’t be seperated from the body; however, when he comes to the Kingdom of God, he is just a spirit like Jesus and God. I don’t think sinners will be got eternal penalties in Hell, the pelnalties will be restricted and the sinners will be destroyed after suffer the torments.
    – The regeneration/rebirth of a faithful man just really happens right after the recoming of the Christ.
    – Jesus is not God, but the only Son of the only God.
    – Jesus was called “The only Son” while The Father also has other sons. It is because only Jesus was begotten directly from The Holy Spirit (The Father) very long time before the creation of the universe. The other “sons” were created from material (dust of ground), not begotten directly from the Holy Spirit. Obviously, the life of the Son born from The Holy Spirit is more precious than all the lives of who were created from material. This is why the death of Jesus can pay for all sins of all people.
    – When Jesus became a human, he didn’t inherit the gene of Mary from Adam, he was completely a new man (new Adam).
    – “Angels of Jehovah” is not Jesus or Jehovah or Jehovah’s manifestion, they are merely “good” angels who usually happened besides the invisible Jehovah (Genesis 16:7-13; 18-19; 21:17-19; 32:24-31; Exodus 3:2-14; Judges 6:11-24; 13:6-23; IISamuel 24:15-25). Many people confused the voice of the invisible God (around the Angels) with the voice of the Angels, so they thought that Jehovah spoke and acted in the form of the Angels ! In The Future’s Kingdom of God, the position of an angel is much lower than a man. There are nowhere in the bible called angels “Sons of God”, Hebrews 1-2 show the roles of angels, especially Hebrews 1:5.
    – The Shabbat today shouldn’t be kept in the old way, we are released from the old laws to serve the new laws in new ways with autonomy. Shabbat today in Jesus is not limited in the seventh day of a week, but an endless time after we believe in the Christ.
    – Homosex is not accepted in OT and NT.
    If you have sympathy with me, please send me via my email: ptochoslazaros@gmail.com

  36. on 02 Dec 2013 at 11:10 pmtimothy

    Hello Lazaros,

    Thank you for contacting our Living Hope web site seeking truth from GODs word.

    You have listed many topics which we are in agreement with and several where GODs word teaches some differences.

    I will contact you as requested.

    timothy

  37. on 05 Dec 2013 at 6:02 pmJas

    Ptochos
    There are many Holy Spirits, All that came in the name of YHWH are Holy. And there are many unholy spirits which have gave powers to kings and have actually dwelt within a human body directing every action of that person. When you say The Father is a Holy Spirit you are completely correct but saying Jesus is a Spirit is ignoring the fact that in Rev 5 the Lamb is still in dwelled by the Holy Spirit that God sent out to the world. A man can not be a spirit but can be guided or in dwelled by one.
    The reason Jesus’ death can pay for the sin of Adam which alienated mankind from God is because he was PERFECT in All The Commandments of God becoming the COVERING BLOOD of the animal sacrifice which was commanded for all to do , the same that Abel ,Noah, Abraham and Israel were instructed to do all pointing to the offspring of Eve that was promised by God to come. God made many promises to many to bring about this person which took almost 4000 years of the 6000 years set aside for this person to be PERFECT enough to be the needed sacrifice . All the promises attached to the Commandments are still valid to anyone who choses to take hold of them and the Sabbath is still part of being true Israel . Absolutely Homosexuality is a sin against the Commandments but also is breaking the Sabbath and many other things Christians Claim were done away with.
    Btw your english is very good for a Vietnamese .

  38. on 06 Dec 2013 at 11:10 pmPtochos Lazaros

    Replying to Jas
    – Jesus is originally a spirit (I don’t really know if I should use capital letter S in “spirit” or not): Philip 2:6-7; John 1:1 (“theos”/god doesn’t have a body).
    – After resurrection, Jesus became a spirit as his former form: IICor 3:17-18; Rom 8:9; Gal 4:6.
    – And the flesh of us will be changed into spiritual body like Jesus, that means our flesh will be vanished. Be noticed that we will be transformed into the same image of Jesus and God (Philip 3:21; IGi 3:2; Rom 8:29; IICor3:18; ICor 15:43-55).
    Let remember: “that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (ICor 15:50). How can you enjoy forever life with that flesh ?

  39. on 06 Dec 2013 at 11:32 pmJas

    Ptochos
    None of the verses you reference actually state what you claim, you just interpret it to say that. Yes All flesh will be changed when Heaven comes done to earth till then All will either sleep as dust or be kept alive by the Spirit as Jesus is currently. Now in the 1st resurrection when God makes good his promises to Abraham and his Offspring they will receive renewed human bodies much like Adam received which was capable of living the whole 1000 years. What has you mixed up is you fail to seperate the 2 future resurrections. 1st for those of the Covenant promised to Israel which is by the Law and the 2nd All redeemed from the sin of Adam ,All from Adam to the last person born from the nations during the Millennium ,Great and Small, Just and Unjust which is the blessing of All Nations aka Grace .

  40. on 07 Dec 2013 at 7:55 amRay

    Jehovah’s Witnesses use the name Jehovah, and Trinitarians use the term Trinity.

    I’ve heard from a man that organizes his beliefs in the Trinity fashion, say how there is no authority of scripture with which to
    call God Jehovah all the time, and I suppose there’s also no authority of scripture to teach the Trinity, as if scripture actually tells you that you must do this to be a follower of Jesus.

    To some it is a hill to die on, but I believe the cross was placed by God upon another hill, the one that Jesus died on. Wasn’t it the same one where Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac?

    So what things are we to give up and what things are we to hold on to an never let go of? I believe it depends upon the word of God, the truth eternal, on Jesus.

    Now is there anything in scripture that tells us to convert all Trinitarians to something else?

  41. on 07 Dec 2013 at 8:01 amRay

    Doesn’t the Bible speak of two resurrections, one of the just, and another of the unjust, one that is for the blessed, and one that is for judgment unto damnation?

  42. on 07 Dec 2013 at 8:11 amRay

    I heard of a church once who taught the Trinity by law, at least that was in their by laws. I had asked what by law means, and they said it means by law.

    So does that mean the pastor could say that he teaches the Trinity by the authority of the church, who says he must do this by law?

    By the way, one was to agree with the by laws to become a member, it seemed to me.

    Maybe their get their authority by coersion, craft, and manipulation of it’s members.

  43. on 07 Dec 2013 at 8:24 amRay

    So are they Trinitarians by law or by faith?

  44. on 08 Dec 2013 at 4:17 amPtochos Lazaros

    I didn’t interpret, let me quote just 2 of the verses again for all people to see whether Jesus is spirit or not (after resurrection):
    17 Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.
    II Cor 3
    You still don’t understand “that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (ICor 15:50).

  45. on 08 Dec 2013 at 9:04 amMichael

    Ptochos Lazaros writes- After resurrection, Jesus became a spirit as his former form

    Response…Your conclusion that the risen Jesus is no longer in the flesh is correct but is of little use if there is no understanding as to why this is true.

    You wrote that “Jesus became a spirit as his former form” and “I’ve tried to find true Christians who were released totally from “Trinity”

    If you believe that Jesus existed as a spirit being prior to his birth in Bethlehem then you yourself are not totally free from the Trinity seeing they would agree with you that Jesus existed as a spirit prior to his birth.

    The answer of how Jesus is the Son of God also answers why he is spirit after the resurrection.

  46. on 08 Dec 2013 at 10:36 amtimothy

    Jas,

    Pardon me, I do not mean to be rude for breaking in on your conversation with “Ptochos Lazaros”, whom I am calling “Lazaros”.

    Ptochos Lazaros,

    Jas and I, have been writing on various threads here on this Kingdom Ready Blog, for well over a year or so. Many hours of quoting scripture and endeavoring to have *no private interpretation* and *to rightly divide* GODS word.

    2 Timothy 2: (kjv)
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, *rightly dividing* the word of truth.

    2 Peter 1 (kjv)
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any *private interpretation*.

    As Jas has recently written, their are over 30,000 different denominations today, in the USA alone, making a *Kaleidoscope*
    of private and untrue interpretations.

    Jas has pointed out to you, “None of the verses you reference actually state what you claim, you just interpret it to say that.”

    We have studied about Jesus’ resurrected body and have read what he said about his new born again, first fruits from the dead, body.

    Before his death, he was a 100%, flesh and blood, human being, a *nephesh chai=a living, breathing conscious body*

    He gave himself as a living sacrifice, a living flesh and blood human being.

    When he died on the cross, he became a dead human being, a *nephesh muth*, dead as a door nail, totally or assuredly dead.

    As the first, resurrected from the dead, human being:

    Luke 24: (kjv)
    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    (His disciples thought they were seeing a [spirit=pneuma]/ghost/phamton)

    And today’s Christian, has Christ in them, their parakletos, and are part of his body and his church.

    Ephesians 5: (kjv)
    30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    You write:

    “You still don’t understand “that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (ICor 15:50)”

    NO! We do understand, that at the first resurrection, Christians will become the next fruits from the dead and receive a resurrected/changed body.

    Yes! Jesus existed as a “Promise” in GODs word to fallen mankind:

    Genesis 3: (kjv)
    15 And I will put enmity between [thee=the devil] and the [woman=Eve], and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Yes! Jesus’ life began, just as our lives begin at conception in our mothers womb and when we take our first breath at birth as a living human being.

    Yes! Christians, those who would believe and be redeemed, existed in GODs foreknowledge, but not as a spirit, as some claim and wrongly interpret GODs word about Jesus existing before his conception and birth as a human being, some 2000 years ago.

    Ephesians 1: (kjv)
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    This is the Christian’s
    *Blessings of Redemption*.

  47. on 08 Dec 2013 at 11:03 amRay

    In light of I Cor 6:17 (KJV), what will we also be?

  48. on 08 Dec 2013 at 11:08 amJas

    Timothy
    This is an open forum and every comment is welcome and valuable if it pertains to the search of the truth.

    Michael asked “how Jesus is the Son of God” but my question to him is How is Jesus the “the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David” in Rev 5 if Jesus is nolonger a man but is now the ontological Son of God by nature or preexisted Judah and David in coming into existence .

  49. on 08 Dec 2013 at 11:23 amtimothy

    Thanks Jas,

    I wil be waiting for the same answer to your question

    “How is Jesus the “the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David” in Rev 5 if Jesus is nolonger a man but is now the ontological Son of God by nature or preexisted Judah and David in coming into existence .”

  50. on 08 Dec 2013 at 2:34 pmMichael

    Quote- Michael asked “how Jesus is the Son of God”

    Response…Yes I did ask and you and you and every member and author on this site per usual no not answer. For a board that takes great delight in critiquing Trinitarians you seem to have no stomach to put forth your version of the truth.

    Jas asks- How is Jesus the “the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David” in Rev 5 if Jesus is no longer a man but is now the ontological Son of God by nature?

    Response…When Ptochos suggested that the risen Jesus was no longer of flesh you said of the references he gave “None of the verses you reference actually state what you claim, you just interpret it to say that”

    Now when the titles the “the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David” are applied to the risen Jesus you seem to be able to see them calling him a human being when “None of the verse you reference actually states what you claim, you just interpret it to say that”

    Let’s again look at some verses that actually use the term “human being” and see who it’s not being applied to.

    Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

    Galatians 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Paul certifies that he did not receive his gospel from a human being but from the risen Jesus so now you must say that “None of the verses you reference actually means what it states, you just need to interpret it to what we say it should mean”

  51. on 08 Dec 2013 at 3:06 pmJas

    Michael
    Yes you have asked that question over and over and have been given many different answers. Being human or the Son of God ontologically is a matter of decent or who do you give credit . Jesus is a man because he is of the bloodline of his biological parents and Jesus is the Son of God because God chose him as such . The title Son of God has been given to Kings,Priest and Prophets of which as a man Jesus held All 3 offices and Also a very new office as the the firstfruit of the firstfruits as the firstborn of the dead by the resurrection. I do believe when Heaven comes upon this earth Jesus will receive the first spiritual body and then All deemed worthy will received theirs. Till then Jesus will sit at the right hand of God as a human being kept alive by the spirit which Rev 5 clearly shows.
    Who knows what point Paul was actually trying to make but it does not with certainty state what you claim it just states it was by revelation from Jesus which source was God . I may not understand everything but in this case Rev 5 is so clear it removes the possibility of your claim being an option.

  52. on 08 Dec 2013 at 11:07 pmPtochos Lazaros

    1. Michael, you don’t really realize the difference bw Trinity theory and my faith ?
    Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 “person” of one God and they are co-equal.
    My faith: God is Father, who is Holy Spirit. Jesus is Son of God, he was not equal to THE GOD Jehovah, he was born long time before the creation.
    – The Bible says (I don’t interpret) that The Word was Son of God before the creation:
    2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
    Micah 5
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    John 8
    5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    John 17
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    Colossians 1
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    John 1
    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    I Corinthians 8
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Hebrews 1
    – If The Son didn’t exist before the creation, why was him seen as the builder ?
    3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
    Hebrews 3
    – If The Word was just “existed” in God’s intention and wasn’t “someone” before the creation, why was The Word called “god” (theos) ? (“The Word was god” doesn’t mean he was The God Jehovah), how could The Word be in the form of God before incarnation ? Why could The Word accept and act as “someone”: made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant ???
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    Philippians 2
    2. Timothy, you have a good point with quoting Luke 24:39: “… for a spirit hath not flesh and bones”. But let remember: spirits (as angels) could appear in a human form and could eat like human (Gen.18:8), even an angel could wrest with Jacob (Gen.32:24) ! Nothing is impossible with a supernatural being as spirit ! Do you know why Jesus appear in a form of human and show his hands and feet ? It was because some apostles didn’t believe his resurrection !
    If you still cannot accept my quote “that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (ICor 15:50), how do you think about Mat.22:29-30 ?
    29 Jesus answered and said to them, You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
    30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    You know, angels are just spirits. If we will be as angels of God in heaven, do we have the ruinable body ?
    As I’ve already told you, I didn’t interpret, it’s the scripture says that Jesus is spirit (after resurrection) and you cannot deny the truth in this verses:
    17 Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.
    II Cor 3

  53. on 08 Dec 2013 at 11:37 pmJas

    Ptochos
    Of course you would think your interpretations are what the bible says, all beliefs also claim the same. But in many of the verses the hebrew or greek do not even support that interpretation and in some cases they are not supported by historical context. Your claim makes Jesus as a deceiver and liar when he states that he is not a spirit. Yes spiritual beings (holy and unholy) can appear in human form or in a human body so we must just take Jesus’ words over our own imagination.

  54. on 09 Dec 2013 at 2:58 amMichael

    Jas writes- Yes you have asked that question over and over and have been given many different answers.

    Response…No Jas I have not been given any explanations as to how Jesus is the Son of God and this blog provides none. Look at the name of this very thread the “Trinity Delusion”, why yet another thread on how Jesus is not the Son of God and how does studying something false reveal truth?

    Anthony most recently gave us his teaching on how Jesus is the Son of God he wrote “See Luke 1:35, thanks” Well, that clears everything up doesn’t it. Anthony really calls God the biological father of Jesus so why have another Trinity Delusion thread when you can teach this groups truth on how God is the biological father of Jesus. Why not have Kent Ross start a thread and teach this groups truth on how Jesus is the Son of God because the Father used sperm from God with the necessity of a betrothed virgin female to produce their child? Why not? Because they can’t stand the scrutiny they pile on others.

    Jas writes- Jesus will sit at the right hand of God as a human being kept alive by the spirit which Rev 5 clearly shows.

    Response…There are no words in Revelation 5 stating that Jesus is a human being kept alive by the spirit and again we will use your own words to critique your statement. “None of the verses you reference actually state what you claim, you just interpret it to say that”

    Jas writes- Who knows what point Paul was actually trying to make but it does not with certainty state what you claim it just states it was by revelation from Jesus

    Response…Really? What did I say you would do with the words actually written in Galatians?

    Quote… “Paul certifies that he did not receive his gospel from a human being but from the risen Jesus so now you must say that “None of the verses you reference actually means what it states”

    And you didn’t disappoint, you wrote “Who knows what point Paul was actually trying to make but it does not with certainty state what you claim it just states it was by revelation from Jesus”

    So Revelation 5 which does not use the word human being is actually a proof text that the risen Jesus is a human being but when Paul states that he did not receive his gospel from a human being but from Jesus we must conclude that it cannot be understood what he was trying to convey, wow.

    There are at least four accepted ways one can be a son of someone.
    1. Literal ontological.
    2. Adoption.
    3. Title.
    4. Always existed as such

    Know this Jas; you and every member of this board, every member of every faith that is known and every unbeliever are all in complete agreement that the risen Jesus is not the literal ontological Son of God. That means no matter what path or thought process you use, scholarly or unlearned, careful or reckless, caring or uncaring you all end up with the same unifying conclusion.

    That God the Father did not have a literal ontological Son.

    How can the whole world be right?

  55. on 09 Dec 2013 at 4:19 amtimothy

    Ptochos Lazaros

    You: “As I’ve already told you, I didn’t interpret, it’s the scripture says that Jesus is spirit (after resurrection) and you cannot deny the truth in this verses:”

    Jas: “None of the verses you reference actually state what you claim, you just interpret it to say that.”

    Michael: “Your conclusion that the risen Jesus is no longer in the flesh is correct but is of little use if there is no understanding as to why this is true.”

    Jesus Christ has risen and become the “first fruits” from the dead. He has entered into another dimension, the dimension of the Kingdom of GOD.

    1 Corinthians 15: (kjv)
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    So, Jesus Christ is now in the proper body form to reside in another dimension, that is, the Kingdom of GOD dimension.

    At his return, the *Kingdom Ready Christians*,
    will become like he is now.

    1 Corinthians 15: (kjv)
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    Now, Jas and Michael, should further explain, using their eloquent language. Together, and now, our understanding is more complete, based on having allowed GODs word to interpret itself.

    This, here, is a helpful copy/paste from Wolfgangs website:

    “All Scripture is to be interpreted:

    The verse (where it is written):
    (a) right where and how it is written; the words, expressions, sentences are clear in themselves
    (b) according to correct usage of words – words must be interpreted and understood as used in the Scriptures (not as used in secular literature); and words must be interpreted and understood in light of their usage at the time the particular Bible was translated or revised (not as used today in our vernacular)
    (c) observing figures of speech – if words are not literally true, or an unusual way of expression is found, any figures of speech involved must be noted and understood
    (d) recognizing references to oriental customs and manners – the Scriptures were not written in our day and time or culture, various expressions may only be understood when noting the customs and manners in the times and lands of the Bible.
    (e) definition of terms at other places in Scripture – at times a word or expression may be defined in more detail either in a verse where it has been used before, or else also in a later place.

    In the context:
    (a) noting the immediate context – often the meaning becomes clear from the immediate context, the surrounding verses
    (b) noting the remote or expanded context – all places dealing with the same subject or topic add to the overall picture and understanding
    Further principles to be observed
    (a) all scriptures on a topic must be in harmony – as seen from the remote context, different scriptures may address an identical topic, and they must be in harmony with one another; different details may be mentioned, but all will add up to a harmonious overall picture
    (b) note difference between similar and identical situations – records about an identical situation will harmoniously complement each other without contradictions; if there is even one detail which would cause a contradiction, they are speaking not of an identical situation but of several similar situations.
    (c) the few difficult verses are to be understood in light of the many clear verses – the basis of a correct understanding are the many clear verses on a subject, any odd verses are to be understood in light of the clear verses
    (d) noting “to whom” or “of whom” it is speaking – the interpretation must always note, to whom something is addressed, or of whom something is true, especially in reference to:
    biblical ages or times (past, present, future ages)
    persons (individuals or a group [class] of people)
    Israel, Gentiles, Church of God
    (e) interpretation and application – one must note the difference between the interpretation (to whom and of whom is this speaking and true) and a possible application now (is the truth generally applicable, still valid, or only to be applied for the one it is speaking of)

    None of the writings of the Bible was just written in our day and time and is addressed to us directly! Even the NT scriptures cannot be read and understood as if they had been written just yesterday and had been addressed to us. People, places, situations and time references that are mentioned must be understood from the writer’s view and from the perspective of the circumstances at the time of writing.

    A correct application to today’s situations and people living now can only be made after a correct interpretation has been gained first.

    Many times a reader can greatly benefit in his reading from asking some simple questions while reading a passage or verse, such as these:

    What is the verse actually saying?
    What is that verse not saying?
    What is the opposite of what it is saying?
    What is unusual about the way it is said?
    What did it mean to first-century believers?
    What does it mean to believers today?”

    Thanks Wolfgang.

  56. on 09 Dec 2013 at 10:02 amJas

    Michael
    Like I said and you showed us above yes your question has been answered over and over again just not to your satisfaction .
    You are correct that Rev 5 does not use the word human to describe the Lamb but provide one place in scripture where a heavenly being has been mortally wounded and something seperate like the seven spirits God sent out to the earth. Paul, Peter and even Jesus himself claim to be a MAN post resurrection . How is Adam the Son of God, biological ,ontological,adoption or just giving credit for existence ?
    Every verse is subject to everything else written in the bible and everything else written by that author , you can not just pick a verse ,take it out of context of the author ,historical or future.
    Almost All christians believe the person of Jesus is ontologically God ,they Just disagree on how so you are truly in agreement with the majority.
    I have no doctrine to protect because what I believe has not profited me above my fellow loving human because all I have is Grace just as every man ,woman and child who dont deny it at judgement will receive.
    I would love to be part of the election that will be raised in the 1st resurrection but man and satan may have made that almost impossible through deception and corruption.

  57. on 09 Dec 2013 at 10:06 amSarah

    Michael,

    You wrote in post #45:

    Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;

    Galatians 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    The Greek word translated “man” in the verses above is anthropos. Can you please explain the following doctrinal teaching of Paul, given your claim that Paul said Jesus was no longer a man:

    “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man [antrhopos] Christ Jesus” (1Ti 2:5)

  58. on 09 Dec 2013 at 11:10 amMichael

    Jas writes-Like I said and you showed us above yes your question has been answered over and over again just not to your satisfaction.

    Response…God as the biological father of Jesus using sperm from God with the necessity of his chosen betrothed human female virgin so that together they can produce the Son of God has never been brought up on this board and if it was would any of you be satisfied with this doctrine?

    Jas writes- Paul, Peter and even Jesus himself claim to be a MAN post resurrection

    Response…There is no scripture calling the risen Jesus a human being.

    Jas writes- How is Adam the Son of God, biological, ontological, adoption or just giving credit for existence?

    Response,,,Why did you leave out your definition on how Jesus is the Son of God “Jesus is the Son of God because God chose him as such “

    No one from Adam to Jesus was born of God and all that are born of God are from seed.

    Jas writes for himself-“You are correct that Rev 5 does not use the word human to describe the Lamb (but)”

    Jas writes for others-“None of the verses you reference actually state what you claim, you just interpret it to say that”

    Response…No buts about it, that is hypercritical.

    Jas writes- I have no doctrine to protect

    Response…“Jesus is the Son of God because God chose him as such “cannot be and does not need to be protected.

  59. on 09 Dec 2013 at 11:29 amMichael

    Sarah writes- Can you please explain the following doctrinal teaching of Paul, given your claim that Paul said Jesus was no longer a man:

    1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    The most quoted verse of scripture by those who claim the risen Jesus is a human being is followed by the most unquoted scripture that puts verse 5 into context.

    1Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Why did God need a mediator?

    Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

    God is the Testator of the New Covenant and could not die so the job of the mediator was to die to put the Testament into force. This was before the resurrection, the man Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he (Jesus) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death…

    So again, 1Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    These two verses speak of Jesus before the resurrection.

  60. on 09 Dec 2013 at 12:01 pmJas

    Michael
    Your question has been answered here even though it is not to your satisfaction .
    Sarah provided you a verse that is beyond normal clarity of Paul. “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man [antrhopos] Christ Jesus” (1Ti 2:5)
    This verse is just one of many which does not allow your claim that Jesus is a spirit post resurrection and sets the interpretation of your proof text as not saying what you claim. Paul received his commision by revelation meaning it came from God not men but was mediated by Jesus.
    I could walk away from christianity and still receive Grace so actually I have no doctrine to protect. My drive is the search of the truth which is the cause of me believing in the God of the Bible so I will not be walking away or quiting my search.

  61. on 09 Dec 2013 at 12:13 pmJas

    Michael
    Jesus became the mediator by the means of death. That means it came after death when his being was raised from the dead. The dead can do nothing . So in no way does this change the fact Paul declares the new mediator is a human being not a spirit.

  62. on 09 Dec 2013 at 1:40 pmSarah

    Michael,

    Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he (Jesus) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death…

    So again, 1Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    These two verses speak of Jesus before the resurrection.

    I’d have to agree with Jas that Jesus became our mediator through his death. The author of Hebrews consistently refers to Jesus’ role as mediator in the present tense. In Hebrews 9:15, Jesus *is* the mediator, not *was* the mediator.

    Hebrews 8:6: “But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.”

    Hebrews 7:25: “Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

    1 Tim 2:5-6 likewise says there *is* one mediator, not there *was* one mediator. According to the grammar of the sentence, “the man Jesus Christ” is the resurrected Jesus who is presently interceding for us in his ongoing role as our mediator.

  63. on 09 Dec 2013 at 2:09 pmJas

    Romans 1
    1:2 This gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 1:3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Michael
    Unless you deny these verses Jesus was APPOINTED the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead. He accounted of it at his baptism through adoption, was called it because of his lineage as the next in line to be king just as David, Solomn and other godly kings.

  64. on 09 Dec 2013 at 2:55 pmtimothy

    Sarah,

    I am sure, I simply believe as you do.

    John 3: (NASB)
    5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    born of water=to be born flesh, as a human being

    born of the spirit:

    1st=baptized by Jesus Christ/receiving holy spirit

    2nd=at 1st resurrection, re-born as a spiritual
    human being, with a body like Jesus Christ now has as he resides in the Kingdom of GOD with GOD.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [again=from above].’

    We start out being born as a human being.

    Receive holy spirit, are born again to change our life style and get “Kingdom Ready”.

    2 Corinthians 5: (NASB)
    17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

    At Jesus Christ return, those who have stayed in the race, will be raised or changed,
    “born again” as a new creation human being.

    The purpose of this blog is to be and stay,
    *Kingdom Ready*.

    Here is a recent LHIM teaching by
    Rev Vince Finnegan, *Born Again, Again*:

    http://lhim.org/sunday/teaching_notes.php?id=500&mode=audio&page=0&find_me=

  65. on 09 Dec 2013 at 3:34 pmJas

    Timothy
    How is it that Jesus was speaking to those already a person according to flesh telling them they had to be born of water and spirit. It was evident being born of water was not being born a human from the womb but was something a flesh and blood person must do to make ready the person for a time when God would cause them to be born again as a spirit when God brings heaven back upon this earth after he makes good his promises to Abraham during the Millennium .
    Of course this was spoken of before Jesus secured Grace to All humanity. Water is water baptism

  66. on 09 Dec 2013 at 5:09 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Why did “Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews”, come to Jesus by night?

    John 3: (kjv)
    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

  67. on 09 Dec 2013 at 5:26 pmJas

    Timothy
    Fear but what does that have to do with the requirements Jesus placed upon those in his audience for entering the Kingdom of God. The reference to being born of flesh was to Nicodemus question about re-entering His mothers womb . Being born of water is figuratively speaking ,so is being born of spirit. Born of water is being baptized with water and being born of spirit is being accounted of being changed into a spiritual being after GWT Judgement or maybe the indwelling of A Holy Spirit after entering a Covenant Relationship with God by completely accepting HIS WORD he gave us to live by.

  68. on 09 Dec 2013 at 6:35 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Just a simple question and you side stepped for some reason.

  69. on 09 Dec 2013 at 6:45 pmJas

    Timothy
    I answered it completely, Fear!

  70. on 09 Dec 2013 at 7:18 pmtimothy

    Jas

    Correct. Fear that the other Jews would see him hanging out with Jesus. So he, Nicodemus, probably was alone and there were no others (those in his audience).

    You and the water baptism crew always read water baptism into.

    I believe what John the baptist and Jesus prophesied about water being replaced with spirit.

    Jesus even gave reminder revelation to Peter at Cornelius’ receiving holy spirit into manifestation and he, Peter, reminded the Jerusalem counsel of Jesus’ words.

    Peter who had received the parakletos at Pentecost had Jesus’ words brought to remembrance.

    What has Jesus brought to your remembrance lately?

  71. on 09 Dec 2013 at 7:36 pmJas

    Timothy
    When Nicodemus he used the plural of the word translated “know” so he was not alone.Before My first conversation with you here I was uncertain of the meaning of baptism in Acts after pentecost but in your effort to prove you brought to light many were still being baptized by water some 3 years later. Peter actually commanded it to be performed on Cornelius and his family even after they received A Holy Spirit. This amazed Peter that a not converted to judaism person could enter a Covenant Relationship and receive the spirit promised in Jeremiah to only Israel and this is the point of the vision and the point he was making in Acts 11. It is absurd to claim he was saying water baptism was not neccesary or was not performed on Cornelius and his family . Others may disagree with me and it is their right to do so without condemnation by me or exclusion from Grace

  72. on 09 Dec 2013 at 11:10 pmPtochoslazaros

    Hello Jas
    You wrote: “None of the verses you reference actually state what you claim, you just interpret it to say that.”
    -> You didn’t see: “God is a Spirit” in my quote of John 4:24 ???
    If we will be still have flesh in the Kingdom of God, why did Jesus say that we “are as the angels of God in heaven” (Mat.22:30) ?
    (You know, angels are just spirits)

  73. on 09 Dec 2013 at 11:13 pmPtochoslazaros

    Sorry Jas, you didn’t see: “Lord is that Spirit” in my quote of IICor.3:17 ???

  74. on 10 Dec 2013 at 10:39 amJas

    Ptochos
    Everyone found worthy of eternal life at the Great White Throne Judgement will receive a spiritual body. When me and you die we will sleep in the dust till Jesus gathers all(dead,those alive at end of millennium ,just and unjust,Great and small). If it is your expectation that the next thing you see after death is judgement and entrance into heaven then you will not be disappointed because the dead do not feel time. Jesus is the source of All nations receiving Grace because what Adam lost for mankind Jesus regained for mankind. Remaining in eternal death for mankind came from Adam’s disobedience and the chance at receiving eternal life came from Jesus’ obedience.
    All we disagree on is timing and requirements. .

  75. on 10 Dec 2013 at 8:51 pmPtochoslazaros

    Hi Jas
    Our natural body will be vanished, it will be change into spiritual form: “it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.” (ICor.15:44)
    I don’t deny the resurrection of all man. But the resurrection of sinners (they will return to be flesh body as you think to get punishment) will be different from us-who are adopted to inherit the Kingdom of God !
    “That flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption” (I Cor.15:50). Hence, we will be “transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit” (IICor.3:18).
    “Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like to his glorious body” (Phil.3:21)
    And you cannot deny “Lord is that Spirit” in my quote of IICor.3:17 !!!

  76. on 10 Dec 2013 at 10:33 pmJas

    Ptochos
    Even sinners will be afforded judgement with a mediator so they will be raised the same as all unless someone here knows how to determine with 100% certainty sin Worthy of death.
    Actually if you are refering to the lord that God appointed lord than I can absolutely deny that at the timeframe of Rev 5

  77. on 11 Dec 2013 at 6:27 pmSheryl

    Hi All, I’ve been skimming over the past few days’ entries. If I repeat something already answered, please forgive me. But here’s my thoughts, for what it’s worth.

    Michael seems unable to find anyone on this site who can answer how Jesus is the son of God. I believe the simple answer is that the “how” is because God said so…. ‘this is my son in whom I am well pleased.’ Jesus calls God his father and God calls Jesus his son…and not any ordinary son of God, but a special new “firstfruit.” If you mean what was the method…Jesus was born of Mary the same way all humans are born (in water) and received God’s spirit when he was baptized which seems to signify his spiritual birth. In the same way we are born physically and then born spiritually by a matter of decision and determination.

    As far as water or HS baptism… I think water baptism is more of a declaration to the public of an inner decision, but the new believer must be indwelt,or baptized, with HS.

    Jesus was resurrected with a physically spiritual body. He could appear in a room unexpectedly, but he ate and drank, and had flesh and blood. Jesus said he was not a ghost (spirit.) We have no idea exactly what kind of body he had aside from the remarks made in the bible. Anything else is speculation.

    Jas, with all your study and research do you know of any extant writings about Jesus’ appearance post-resurrection?

  78. on 11 Dec 2013 at 7:10 pmJas

    Sheryl
    Appearance is a matter of perception of others. I have looked at and walked right past people without perceiving them. I have drove the same road for a month noticing something new everyday .
    Jesus was there all the time their perceptoin was just fogged .
    No there is not much in the commentaries of early fathers of extant writings except some about the Ebonites, a 1st century christian group said to have been led by James who only had Matthew in Hebrew .They did not believe in virgin birth,believed Jesus was adopted at baptism, that he died upon a tree, was buried and 3 days later was resurrected in the body he died in and was taken by God to heaven 40 days later.

  79. on 11 Dec 2013 at 10:08 pmPtochoslazaros

    Jas,
    About the “dwelling” of Holy Spirit in Jesus and in human, you should think in a spiritual way (ICor.2:14), don’t let your limited mind to be bound in space when thinking about spirit. Spirit doesn’t depend on space as you think, “it” is supernatural being ! “Who knoweth the spirit of man, whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goeth downward to the earth?” (Eccl.3:21). Spirit can dwell in other spirits, it’s possible ! In the Kingdom of God, we don’t need to have a body for Holy Spirit “dwell” in.
    Sheryl,
    After resurrection, Jesus could ate and drank, and some angels could do the same (Gen.18:8) and even an angel could wrest with Jacob (Gen.32:24) but you know angels are just spirits and don’t have physical body like us ! A supernatural being like a pirit could appear in any form he likes, he can appear in a physical body but he actually isn’t that body, he can change anytime he wants !
    Jesus said he was not a ghost (spirit) because some spostles think he was just a spirit like angel or devil (Lu.24:39), and Jesus had to show his trace in the body to signal them that he is the one who was nailed up. You should understand the meaning in context, shouldn’t be bound in the literal meaning of a word “spirit”.
    Let remember: “that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption” (ICor 15:50)
    “The Lord is the Spirit” (II Cor 3:17)
    For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Mat.22:30)

  80. on 11 Dec 2013 at 10:57 pmJas

    Ptochos
    I believe Paul speaks of deceiving spirits even satan transforming himself into a minister of righteousness . You can not just pick and choose verses without using the whole bible to interpret it. Most of them verses in english bible are the product of the translator doctrines and in hebrew and greek do not actually say or mean that. Historical context is also very important in understand the culture which the writer’s mindset is based upon.
    I have no problem with the spiritual things in the NT and no problem with the concept that human’s can become spirits but then again there is a time and place for this change which is after Great White Throne Judgement. I also believe people in OT and NT were led by Spirit and believe Jesus was Indwelled by the Holiest Spirit sent from God which left him at the tree and reentered him at his resurrection and is now currently still the source of his life. I also believe that God will Rest his Sabbath again during the Millennium and Jesus will reign over creation then return this authority. After that Satan will be loosed again to test the nations then be totally destroyed ,then after Jesus will return to gather the dead and the elect still living for judgement. I also believe God Promised Israel and those joined the indwelling of a Holy Spirit to teach them all things needed and to help keep them but for some reason this nearly stopped happening the last 1900 years because Satan has succeeded in deceiving almost the whole world. I also believe this will return soon to those able to forsake the ways of the world.

  81. on 12 Dec 2013 at 1:58 amRay

    It seems to me that when one is joined to the Lord he is one Spirit, (I Cor 6:17) and so we may become one spirit with the Lord. So we have a hope of being one with Christ in a very spiritual way.

    It seems to me that when Jesus died on the cross, he went unto the Father, and that his spirit came back into his body at his resurrection.

  82. on 12 Dec 2013 at 11:27 amJas

    Ptochos
    I hope you didn’t think I was refering to you as a deceiving spirit. My point was there has been and still are deceiving spirits effecting christianity and other religions which control the dialog of the church through misleading translations.

  83. on 12 Dec 2013 at 8:46 pmPtochoslazaros

    Jas,
    Please review my idea carefully:
    Our natural body will be vanished, it will be change into spiritual form: “it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.” (ICor.15:44)

  84. on 12 Dec 2013 at 8:46 pmSheryl

    Thank you for your replies, brethren.

    There is something that has bothered me when people say that we should not limit our thinking about God, the “godhead”, Jesus, all things spiritual, etc. I am concerned that people will use their boundless imagination and come up with ideas that far outside anything God means for us to know. In that sense, the “safe” thing to believe is what is stated as fact in the bible. Yes, God is a spirit and His infinite being is well beyond our comprehension. But I hope to restrain my thoughts and keep myself grounded in God’s word. I am reminded of Psalm 131:1 — A song of ascents, by David. O LORD, my heart is not proud, nor do I have a haughty look. I do not have great aspirations, or concern myself with things that are beyond me.

    Just a note on the angels’ physicality if you will. I believe that spirit/angels took the form of human beings and (borrowing from Jas) were “perceived” as men. On the other hand, Jesus seemed to appear as a real, physical human being in a resurrected spirit-filled body. I don’t think he necessarily took the form of a human, I think he WAS a human…a new form of human which we believers hope to be as well. I think “flesh and blood” not entering the Kingdom means you MUST be spirit-filled.

  85. on 12 Dec 2013 at 9:17 pmJas

    Ptochos
    Again I have no issues with that verse because I fully believe this will happen to those judged worthy of eternal life at the GWT judgement. As far as during the millennium we will have a renewed body that can live the whole thousand years but some will die less than 100 years old according to Isaiah 65:20

    NRSV ©
    No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old person who does not live out a lifetime; for one who dies at a hundred years will be considered a youth, and one who falls short of a hundred will be considered accursed.

    So see we are in agreement

  86. on 12 Dec 2013 at 11:24 pmtimothy

    Sheryl,

    Yes, GOD bless you, I agree with you all the way.

    And especially:

    “I don’t think he necessarily took the form of a human, I think he WAS a human…a new form of human which we believers hope to be as well. I think “flesh and blood” not entering the Kingdom means you MUST be spirit-filled.”

    I read Jesus Said you must be born again which actually translates *born from above*.

    Again, here is the link to Rev Vince Finnegan’s recent teaching that caused my light bulb to light up…..”Born Again, Again”: {scroll down for notes during the teaching}

    http://lhim.org/sunday/teaching_notes.php?id=500&mode=audio&page=0&find_me=

    lightbulb:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5G_SYlb9W0

  87. on 14 Dec 2013 at 12:15 amPtochoslazaros

    Hi Sheryl and Timothy
    We have many things to say, and hard of interpretation because you are not sensitive of hearing.
    You think: ““I don’t think he necessarily took the form of a human, I think he WAS a human…”
    And this is the answer for you:
    “who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;” (Philip.2:6-7)
    -> Jesus took the form of a man, being made in the likeness of man ! but he was originally a “theos” (John 1:1) not human, and certainly he would return his original form of spirit.
    “Lord is that Spirit” (IICor.3:17), this is obvious !
    “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,” (ICor 15:51). Yeah, we shall all be changed, that mean our body must be vanished to change into spiritual form. How will a grain of wheat bringeth forth much fruit ?

  88. on 14 Dec 2013 at 12:44 amtimothy

    Lazaros,

    A concise short version:

    The Christian is now responsible to take place of the absent Jesus Christ and carry out their ministry of reconciliation.

    At Jesus Christ return, the Christian who has changed and followed Jesus’ commandments, will be changed and be born again, again, and have a second birth body, as needed to live in the coming Kingdom of GOD here on the new heaven and Earth, with GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Right now each Christian has a body just like he had before his death on the cross. Then, each Christian will have a body just as Jesus the Christ has had since GOD raised him from the dead.

    As he was, so is the Christian now. As he is, so will the Christian be.

  89. on 14 Dec 2013 at 7:01 amtimothy

    Even Johnny Cash knew, he, the lamb, is a man……

    Revelation 6: (KJV)
    1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgfWvwP6vHc

  90. on 14 Dec 2013 at 4:27 pmJas

    Timothy
    How do you understand the difference between Rev 20 and 21. In Isaiah 65 it does speak of a new heaven and earth but only says “65:17 For look, I am ready to create
    new heavens and a new earth! 39
    The former ones 40 will not be remembered;
    no one will think about them anymore” yet there is no mention of eternal life matter of fact it speaks of people dying less than a 100 years and also says “.for my people will live as long as trees” which is not forever.
    Of course this was spoken of prior to Jesus giving the sign of Jonah to Israel and is very possible the restored kingdom of Israel would have come if they repented and would have lasted 3000 years but since they didnt repent God delayed it to the last 1000 years while he rest his Sabbath Again and delayed the new heaven and earth till after the millennium .
    Either way no where does it state Jesus has received his restored body it just says his existance is now spiritual which means he is probably in dwelled by a spirit being as Rev 5 is pretty clear on.

  91. on 14 Dec 2013 at 5:48 pmtimothy

    Here is a list of the life spans of many trees:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees

    Jas,

    I do not know, what is your explanation of the difference between Revelations 20 and 21.

    I am sure GOD brought to Jesus remembrance the verses you quoted, and he Jesus taught his disciples many things about the Kingdom coming, as Peter rehearses.

    2 Peter 3: (kjv)
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness

    After the coming furry, coming to Earth, there will be the need for a new Heavens and Earth.

    And, just as our Lord Jesus Christ needed to be born again, spiritual, to enter the Kingdom Of heaven and be in presents of/with GOD… So will the new Heaven and Earth, need to be of another dimension, a spiritual realm, metaphysical, for GOD to come to Earth.

    Likewise, Christians need to die to the old body, and be changed/born again to be able to reside in the new Heaven and Earth spiritual dimension.

    Cry me, there are many who deny the spiritual
    enhancement available for becoming Christ like
    and later living in the Kingdom of GOD.

    By the way, in 1962 I touched, the still alive, Aristotle olive tree in Athens Greece.

  92. on 14 Dec 2013 at 6:19 pmJas

    Timothy
    Yes I am very familiar with the life span of trees saying they average about 3000 years in Canaan . Rev 20 and 21 are 2 different events one coming before death and hell are completely destroyed and the other coming after which means death does not exist then. Rev 20 speaks of a second death that has no power over the saints which we know comes after judgement. Isaiah states that some will die which means they will receive a second death but evidently they will be resurrected with the dead which Jesus purchased back(ALL MANKIND).Yes Jesus taught his disciples for 3 years and also for 40 days after his resurrection yet they still look for the fulfillment of Isaiah 65 . What they did not understand was the timing of this complete fulfillment was dependent upon a nation repenting which they did not so God gave a new revelation for this fulfillment which required a few changes to the timing with in the time line set.
    Yes christians were to be the name of Israel but all that has nearly perished or has perished.
    You and many mix up the fulfillment of both these future events removing the requiriments of the 1st for the sake of other which is by Grace and loving human nature. I really wish you were baptized by spirit so I could learn the truth from you but you are so far off on a few things I am certain you are not even though I feel you are a very loving person

  93. on 28 Sep 2014 at 9:23 ambru

    good morning; i would be honored to meet like minded seekers; that i could fellowship with, also could you recommend a church in my area………that would be orange county , ca………………bru

  94. on 28 Sep 2014 at 12:45 pmJaco

    Bru, you should get in touch with Robin Todd of Scattered Brethren. Just google it. Maybe you can meet with likeminded ones.

  

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