Countering the counter to Adoni in Psalm 110:1
September 15th, 2011 by Ron S.
In this clip that has been edited by Jeff Campbell (a basic unitarian and fellow facebook friend to many of us here on the KR blog), he takes a segment of a debate featuring Sir Anthony Buzzard & Joseph Good vs. Dr. James White & Michael Brown and then does his own video commentary on Dr. White’s points.
Basically in the debate, Anthony was presenting the terrific argument he has brought up for years, that Psalm 110:1 shows two different lords. See the following links from Anthony for greater detail:
http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/adonai.htm
http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/adoni.htm
http://focusonthekingdom.org/113.pdf
And even here on this very blog a few years ago: http://lhim.org/blog/2007/06/05/adoni/
The first is Yahweh Himself represented in most Bible translations by the all CAPS “LORD” and is “Adonai” in the Hebrew. The second lord is actually a different word in Hebrew. It is “Adoni” and should be represented by a little case “lord”. The critical importantance here is that the first “Adonai” always means God Almighty Himself in all of its occurances. And the other “Adoni” never means diety, but typically always refers to human beings (and on a very few occasions – angels). But it never meant God Himself. This important fact should be seen for what it is - a crushing blow against the trinity belief since it clearly shows that the second lord there in that verse with God is a human being designated by God to be his representative (just what the very word “Messiah” is suppose to mean). Therefore the New Testament usage of this over and over for Jesus not only tells us that he is the Messiah. But that as such, he could NOT be God.
However in the debate, Dr. James White brings up an interesting counter to this argument. His main point was that the Masoretic “vowel pointing” that proves/shows that the two root “Adon” words are actually different (Adonai vs. Adoni) was something that Judaism developed centuries after Jesus. His comment was bascially that by this much later time the Jews would have wanted to counter the deity issue with the usage of their vowel points.
Jeff Campbell here in the video, brings up an interesting point as well that in the original Dead Sea scrolls of Psalm 110, Adonai wasn’t there. It was actually a form of the Yahweh name itself.
So what does everyone think about both points? What is the counter to White’s point about the later formation of the vowel pointing? And what of Jeff’s point about the original words used by David in his Psalms were before Judaism’s over-the-top reverence that caused them to switch YHWH to Adonai?
Ron S,
Thanks for another informative article. If the Dead Sea Scrolls used God’s holy name in place of Adonai, then in Psalms 110:1 you would have – Yahweh says to my Lord (Adoni) “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies my footstool.”
From what I understand the Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest surviving documents that give us the original Hebrew O.T. writings in their original form. From what I understand the oldest copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls has been scientifically dated to 125 BCE using carbon dating techniques…
[…] And even here on this very blog a few years ago: http://lhim.org/blog/2007/06/05/adoni/ […]
Hi Joseph,
Nice to see you’re still hanging around. I’ve been talking to Lorraine who says she’s not a Jew, but a Hebrew descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. She doesn’t believe that any of the N.T. writings are valid, and of course this means she doesn’t believe that Y’shua was God’s promised Messiah. She is very well versed in the O.T. scriptures, which is where she gets all of her beliefs from. I believe you are the most knowledgeable person on this site, when it comes to the O.T. scriptures, so I was wondering if you would care to join us in our conversation.
The O.T. writings are not my strong point… 🙂
DT,
Thanks. Yeah King David would have wrote YHWH for the first “LORD” in Psalm 110:1 and not “Adonai”.
But what was orginally written for the second “lord”?
SO, where is everyone else? I’d like to hear thoughts from Sean, Xaiver, Mark C., and other KR bloggers on this subject. Hint, hint, nudge, nudge.
Hi Ron, I’m posting my response again for the second time. I thought it went into moderation, but apparently you have posted and I don’t see it. Also, my post #2 above looks to have been changed. I never posted a link to the article on this blog. Looks like some site bugs. Here is my first response…
It is interesting that you posted this article at this time. I am right at the end of a study to refute Dr. White’s and Dr. Brown’s argument. The point that James White brought up was really a wild card in that debate with Anthony. It also wasn’t really anything that helped his case.
The fact is, Jeff’s position does not negate what White is claiming. Sure the DSS have the sacred name written in the Psalms as YHVH “LORD.” But what Jeff doesn’t realize is that the title for God, Adonai (with qametz), is present in the DSS as well, as supported by the MT (Masoretic text). Psalm 110 was never recovered in the DSS so we will never know, pending another discovery, what was really written. This is why we have to rely on the Septuagint (LXX), MT, POT, Targums, ect, for now.
What Dr. White is arguing is that “adoni” in Psalm 110 could be in fact saying Adonai. Dr. White is claiming it would read, “Yahweh said to my Adonai.” He is not arguing against the fact that the “YHVH” sacred name is being used in Psalm 110:1 for the first LORD.
Why does he claim this? Well, it comes from a argument that Dr. Michael Brown makes in one of his books on Judges 6:13-15. Which is why I was surprised to see that Dr. Brown did not step in and add more on what Dr. White had presented. I guess he didn’t need to as the MSS that they whipped out seemed to have caught Anthony and Joseph off guard.
Dr. Brown argues that because v15 says Adonai in the MT, and the LXX uses “kurious mou – my lord”, and that v13, which says adoni in the Hebrew and Greek, then could point to a change in the Masoretic vocalization of ‘adoni.’ He also argues that the LXX is several hundred years older than the MT, so therefore a more credible source to the original Hebrew.
While he is correct that the LXX says something different than the MT. I will show why that is irrelevant, and also evidence that perhaps Adonai is the correct pronunciation. This would suggest the Masorites got it right and the LXX got it wrong.
Please bear with me as I’m only a couple days away from finishing this study in which I’ll post all my notes on this here in the blog. Even better, perhaps someone can post it as a new article in which we can invite Dr. Brown and Dr. White to try and come and defend their claim? Contact me by email if you are interested in doing so.
DT,
I’m flattered, but I still have a lot to learn myself. If only I had all day to study. 😉
I don’t see what the difference is between a Jew and a Hebrew if she believes that she is of the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Joseph,
Thanks for the great reply. I don’t know what happend to your first post. I or Sean or Mark C as moderators typically get an email when a comment gets put in moderation “limbo”, but I never saw one.
Yes I would be very interested to reading your study and I’d be glad to see about posting it here on the blog. Email it my way when you are done. You can send it to: ronshock (and I’ll spell out the rest to not get spammed) at gmail dot com.
I got that White was arguing that the second “Adon” could be “Adonai” instead of “Adoni”. Clearly he said that the vowel pointing came hundereds of years after Jesus and could have been used against the diety issue that the gentile church was already into by then. This on the surface seems like a legit contention point. But is it really? If the Masorites put the vowel pointing in there to show the difference because this is what the original Tanakh Scriptures meant, then is there hard evidence of this??
I look forward to seeing what you’re working on!
Ron S.
Right, but as I was saying, any brass to his whole argument stems from the Judges 6:15 verse, in that the LXX uses ‘adoni’ (kurios mou) when the Masorites used ‘Adonai.’ An obvious disagreement. Although Dr. White does not refer to this evidence in the debate, I know that is what the punch line will be. It’s to cast doubt on whether the MT got the vowel markings right in Psalm 110:1.
By saying that the vowel pointings coming several hundred years later, therefore the MT had lost the true vocalization, is not really a argument at all, it’s his opinion. Which is why the use of Judges 6:15 to discredit the MT’s use of the root ‘Adon’ is crucial to his position.
I’m hoping to have my paper finished by this Friday, and I’ll email you when it’s done. Just want to make sure I can verify a few translations from various MSS.
So here is what I am understanding (after about 8 reads of this thread) – it all boils down to the second ‘Lord’ in Psalm 110:1.
– Psalm 110 was not in the Dead Sea Scrolls, so they are not of help to decipher.
– The masoretic text (MT) says ‘adoni’, which makes it distinct from the first Lord. Unitarians argue that ‘adoni’ is never used of God and thus Jesus, being the second Lord, cannot be God. The trinis counter that the MT was much later and was doctored to refute Jesus deity.
– The trinis point to the LXX which uses ‘kurios’ for both Lords so there is no distinction. LXX is older and should then be more reliable.
– This verse is the most often quoted in the NT, but it too just uses ‘kurios’ as does the LXX.
– What do other MSS say? (Would love to see Joseph’s research)
Meanwhile, here is another link from a pro-trinitarian perspective arguing primarily that Yahweh is referred to as ‘adoni’, which would render the distinction in the MT much less meaningful:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/psalm110_1.htm
Tim,
Excellent summary. The article was very challenging as well and I plan to examine his arguments more carefully. This issue touches on a thread of research I’m looking into, regarding the use of “Kurios” in the NT. The other day I ran across a very useful website along these lines. It might be of some use to you and others:
http://kurios.homestead.com/
Sara and Tim I believe that this scripture Psalms 110 has the same tampering as the scripture Isaiah 7 vs.14 where Isaiah is telling Ahaz that YHWH GOD will give him a sign of the birth of a child to the ‘virgin’ which was replaced with the Hebrew word ‘almah’ in which many scholars agreed means a married maiden or a young maiden taken by her husband. These were the signs for Isaiah’s children, Isaiah, 8:vs. 18. Here in Psalm 110 YHWH is speaking to his servant his elect but the two usages of Lord I think should not have been worded this way. It brings much confusion to us. Further down YHWH describes him the servant his elect as a priest as well and compares him to Melchizedek the priest of the most high GOD in Genesis 14. Therefore YHWH GOD is talking to his elect his future high priest. Praise YHWH.
Joseph, can you help me or anyone who might know to tell me where did the word Jew originate from was it from either Judeah, or Judah or neither? Did it have something to do with the split of the south and north Israel? Another problem I have is what is the difference between a Jew and a Gentile? Also, Hebrews can have many nations there are Moabites, Edomites, Hittites, Amalochites, Amorites in which many turned to their iniquities with YHWH GOD and others but I identify with the Hebrew Israelites as my descendants from Abram, Isaac and Jacob the fathers of the covenant with YHWH GOD for what YHWH GOD told Abraham in Genesis 15:vs. 12-21 and it is known that from the river of Egypt unto the great river of the Euphrates this is all of south of what is now called Africa through the western parts of Kemit or Africa. Who but the so called blacks were into this bondage and sold as bondwomen and bondmen as in Deut., 28:vs.68 which has already been prophesied. Praise YHWH.
Thanks for the link, Sarah. I just embarked this morning on a ‘kurios’ word study. Very daunting – 1000+ references in the NT alone. Your link will defintely help break it down.
Tim,
I should have my paper done soon. Been busy, and a few other points of research have come up that I needed to study on more. I should be able to finish it tonight or tomorrow.
Lorraine,
I understand where the word Jew comes from. Today the term ‘Jew’ is used as a general word for one who believes in Judaism regardless of their ancestral tribe. I’m sure you would agree that not all Jews today are solely of the tribe of Judah. I’m consider myself a “Messianic Jew,” my wife and daughter are Israeli Jews, so I speak and understand the language fairly well. To clarify, my point is that if all Hebrews are of the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel), then a Jew is a Hebrew as well. I don’t make it a point either to try and separate the terms Hebrew and Jew either.
Joseph, Now I am realizing that if I have to ask you then I am still of the lost ones who were scattered and who do not know who they are and as for asking the Gentile I understand that this cannot just be told to me. For the prophesy says in Isaiah 60:vs.1-7 and Jeremiah 16:vs.16-19 we’ll all come together soon. So you’re saying that Hebrew Israelite and Jew Israelite are the same? What I do know is they’re not suppose to be separate but because people are all so stiffneck and their knowledge is running to and fro and being increased for nothing this is what we have now, Daniel 12:vs. 4,10. I hope you do not mind me asking but is the Jew the same as the Gentile or is one a separate race or is it Gentile a religious belief? Zech., 9:vs.9-14. Anyway, in the end YHWH wants us all to come back unto him on the day of YHWH I AM THAT I AM. This is all that matters really because whether we came from Eden and are Edenic or Jerusalem, Zion, Israel or Judah I know we are all related from the twins of Isaac, Jacob and Esau and the war between the light of YHWH GOD, and the dark of the enemy is nearing its final stages. Praise YHWH.
Thanks Joseph. Looking forward to it. Our own Jaco also had this paper on the subject:
http://www.21stcr.org/multimedia-2011/1-pdf/jz-psalm_110_LXX.pdf
Also, Anthony Buzzard was actually confronted with this issue in a debate with Drew Ayers (see christianmonotheism.com site) back in 2007. Anthony did not rebut in detail in 2007 but did dismiss the charge as unfounded. There is no evidence to support the charge that the MT was intentionally corrupted and while White is seeking to do so with his MSS, it appears to be a weak argument.
For myself, I have reached the following conclusion – we won’t know for certain what the original word for the second Lord was. While I can accept the MT, I understand that trinitarians will not. But, to me, the more compelling argument comes from the balance of the verse. It clearly shows a heirarchy with the first Lord being superior to the second. The second Lord sits and watches while the first Lord does all the work. This is not equality and unless you buy into ‘functional subordination’, this passage refutes the trinity on the ‘co-equal’ clause.
Good point. Totally agree.
Tim,
I read Jaco’s paper and was a good read. Jaco has a great way of relaying a message in a clear and concise manner. However, I did find a couple errors…
This is false. The DSS does not contain Psalm 110. And while I agree that the Paleo sacred name was written in the 11Q Psalm scroll, but so is “adonai.” See Psalm 141:8 11Q5.
So using the argument that only the Paleo version of the sacred name is used in the Psalm scroll and not “adonai”, therefore any reading of the root ADNY must be read as “adoni” is false.
This is also false. In Judges 6:15 the LXX translates “adonai” as “kurios mou – adoni” in reference to the divine God. But I explain this in my paper and why either vocalization could be used and not break the language of adonai only being referenced to God.
Now you see why I’m writing up my paper on this. I want to put a final end to all the important loose ends out there. There are a lot of claims being made by the Unitarian side that aren’t entirely true, or miss important information. If we are to debate Dr. White and Dr. Brown we need to get all the facts straight.
Thanks Joseph. If the trinitarian argument wants to claim that both Lords are ‘adonai’, they would have to support functional subordination. Otherwise, how could they explain the inequality between the two Lords. Does that make sense?
It’s quite clear to me that David’s Lord whom God had said would be at his right hand until his enemies were subdued, was not a man at the time of the writing, but was in fact David’s Lord, one whom we now know as Jesus.
For God to have a Lord over man whom he created by Jesus Christ is certainly not contrary to scripture.
Hi, Joseph,
Please check out http://biblical-studies.ca/dss/dss-introductions/81-11q5.html . From what I read here, the Qumran scrolls did contain Psalm 110, albeit partially.
God bless,
Jaco
Q. Was the Tinity Doctrine made for man, or was man made for the Trinity Doctrine?
Jaco,
That site you pointed me too does not show Psalm 110. In one of the lists it cites in brackets [110] as part of a list structure of Davidic pieces. The reason it is in brackets is because it does not exist. I have checked over my copy of the DSS Psalm 11Q5 to verify this.
Mainly Davidic Pieces (5)
101 – 102 – 103; 109 – [110]
Passover Hallel (6)
[113 – 114 – 115 – 116 – 117] – 118
Notice the ‘Passover Hallel structure [113 – 117] are in brackets as well and do not exist, but 118, outside the brackets does exist.
Hi Ray,
I believe the Trinity doctrine was made by man for man. The basic presumptions and teachings of the Trinity doctrine are found nowhere in the bible. I believe it all started with a group of people that were saying that there is no way that Y’shua could have been a human being. They believed that he must have been superhuman and this later developed into the idea that he must have been a God Man of some sort or another…
Although I agree with Jeff that Psalm 110 does not support Dr. White’s position, he has made a few mistakes in the video. Before we move on within this thread we need to first point out these fallacies.
1) From what I understand, Dr. White is not proposing that Psalm 110 reads, “adonai said to adonai,” or, “YHVH says to YHVH” He proposes that it says, “YHVH says to adonai.”
2) YHVH is written in the Paleo Hebrew in the 11Q5 Qumran DSS, but so is ‘adonai.’ Jeff said in the video that no use of ‘adonai’ is present in the Psalm 11Q5 scrolls as only the paleo sacred name form was used of God at that time. This is false. See; Psalm 141:8, 129:5, 119:68, 130:3. These are just a few examples of ‘adonai’ being in the same Psalm scrolls as the paleo written form of the sacred name.
There are so many issues with Dr. White’s arguments in the video above that ultimately he has to rely his conspiracy assumption that the Masoretes changed the vocalization based upon their bias against Christians. It’s a desperate attempt by him. I’m going to put that notion to shame as soon as I finish my paper. I’m waiting to hear back from a well known scholar on a inquiry I have into earlier MSS evidence to support the MT before I publish it. I don’t like to put information out there without much scrutiny and study.
Tim,
Yes, agreed.
One way they do explain inequality is through made up rules that govern the Trinity. For example, there was a Trinitarian that a few of us were debating with awhile back ago that went as far as to say that the Triune God can transfer omniscience. That is how he explain that Jesus could not know the hour and still be God. Only through ridiculous mental jousting and illogical extrapolation can Trinitarians logically pool together the mathematical impossibility of the Trinity.
Jesus certainly is and was, in the days of his flesh, more than mere human. Though he belonged to the race of Adam, as far as men could tell, his being was of God in a divine way more so than any other man, for none other was conceived by God as he was.
No other man could claim God as his Father to the extent of Jesus.
Being the same as us in so many ways, he was different than the rest of us. He was unique in ways that are indeed unique.
He is the amazing mystery of God, and what’s also amazing to me is that men like David knew of him by faith.
Ray,
You said, “He is the amazing mystery of God, and what’s also amazing to me is that men like David knew of him by faith.”
I agree. I just disagree with all the people that say he wasn’t fully human, and that he was in reality some sort of hybrid, or God Man, or God clothed in human flesh, etc…
Joseph,
Thank you for pointing that out to me. I will have to correct that.
You also disagree with Bateman’s observation:
It should be noted that Bateman is not arguing around adoni as such as he does the contraction, l’adoni, or “to my lord.” We all know that the LXX translated Adonai as “my lord” in less that 5 places. But “l’adoni,” I agree is always used as a non-divine reference.
I’m looking forward to your paper, Joseph.
One other thing we can consider, especially to counter the idea of the Masoretes’ “conspiracy,” is the very anthropomorphic vss. 5-7. The Masoretes, had they truly had a conspiracy, would much rather have pointed the ADNY in vs. 5 as reading, Adoni, referring to the human Messiah. But they didn’t. They pointed ADNY as reading Adonai, regardless of the difficulty this pointing would lead to, particularly around the very anthropomorphic references in the said verses.
Amazing. I am finding that trinitarian scholars have conflicting views on this one. I was just listening to a sys theo lecture by Wayne Grudem, and he said that Jesus had to be omnicient, omnipotent, and omnipresent at all times, or he was not fully God. I would love for him to explain exactly how Jesus was omnipresent during his ministry on earth.
Jaco,
No prob. 🙂 Out of all the Psalms, the most quoted and controversial one is missing… go figure. But, like most of the DSS, I can’t imagine it being anymore than a vowel-less reading of the Masoretic text.
I don’t disagree with the Hebrew rendering of the vocalization, I was just pointing out another MSS in the LXX that translates adonai as kurios mou.
What would be more prevalent about the ‘lamed’ preposition is if it were never put before ‘adonai’, but only the ‘adoni’ occurrences. Do you know the answer to this? From off the top of my head I don’t believe there is an occurrence where the lamed preposition is given to adonai. I know of elohim (l’elohim, el’elohim).
Great point, they want it both ways. I also point out how Dr. Brown on one hand appeals to the LXX reading of Judges 6:15 to try and prove a vocalization change of adonai, yet on the other hand he doesn’t agree with the the LXX rendering of ‘kurios mou’ in Psalm 110. Do White and Brown differ on this? I noticed that while White was speaking about this to Buzzard in the debate that Brown didn’t interject anything. Perhaps Brown stays away from the Masoretes conspiracy approach that White posits.
Joseph,
Bateman is correct on that one. L’adoni (contraction, lamed + ADNY) always refers to someone non-divine.
Check out 1 Samuel 25:30. See the striking parallel with Ps. 110:1.
You are correct in that Brown was silent on White’s point re Ps. 110:1. He seems to be more cautions than the “trigger happy” Calvinist who tends to be quite novel in many of his points. Brown is also cautious in that he’s never admitted to believing that Jesus was Yahweh…
The bottom line seems to me to be that Christ was on the right hand of God at the time of David’s writing Psalm 110, though some might take it as a word of prophecy that is true today but was not yet at the time of his writing.
It seems to me that the Lord Jesus was a Priest after the order of Melchizedek during David’s time on this earth, and that his service to God the Father was in the heavenlies, in the kingdom of heaven.
Since at that time, at the time of David he could not yet offer his blood….or could he?
Jeff, you again are showing that you do not know Hebrew or ancient Hebrew for that matter. If you check the DSS and the Masoretic text for Psalm 110 and then compare Isaiah 21:16 in both the DSS and the MT you will learn that they all use “Lord” the same way in Hebrew.
Isaiah is not using “my Lord” either. Isaiah is just using “Lord”. Here are the passages.
××“× ×™ DSS of Isaiah 21:16 “Lord” referring to God
×Ö¹×“Ö´× ×™ MT of Isaiah 21 with vowel points “Lord” referring to God
ל××“× ×™ DSS of Psalms 1:1 with the prefix “Lamed” which means “to”
לַ×Ö¹×“Ö´× ×™ MT of Psalms 1:1 with the prefix also
James White is correct when he states that the second “Lord” has no distinction in the DSS as Adonai vs Adoni of Psalm 110. Its is only in the MT with the vowel points that you see the distinction because of the cover up to deny Jesus as deity.
No, Dr. Al Garza. Your disagreement with any of us most certainly does not imply ignorance of ancient Hebrew or the Hebrew Scriptures on our part. That is a very arrogant statement by you.
First off, Isaiah 21:16 does NOT have the contraction, l’adoni. It has in Hebrew, amar adonai eilai. I don’t see your reference there.
Your Ps. 1:1 does not have l’adonai either. I’m not too sure what you’re trying to say.
James White is utterly wrong re. his Calvinistic slant given to Ps. 110:1 and he gives away HIS ignorance of Hebrew and the ancient Hebrew textual traditions. (He can hardly read Greek properly, for goodness’ sake!) There was NO agenda with the Masoretic Text. There was NO conspiracy behind the vowel pointing of Ps. 110:1. In fact, the Masoretes opened themselves up for so much ridicule by pointing vs. 5 to be Adonai with the very problematic anthropomorphisms which follow. A much better option would have been to vowel-point the word as Adoni, referring to a human – BUT THEY DIDN’T. IF THEY HAD AN AGENDA, THEY DID PRETTY BADLY IN LETTING THIS ONE SLIP!
Lastly, the original has Yahweh speaking to ADNY. That in itself precludes the ADNY Yahweh spoke to being Yahweh Himself.
So, lots and lots of populist non-points by you. The Biblical Christ is not deity, sorry.
Jaco van Zyl
South Africa
No Jaco, you are very incorrect. You didn’t understand my point at all. You need to reference the DSS and the MT together in order to see the difference, which you are not doing. The DSS has NO VOWEL points in Psalm 110:1. It just read L-ADNY. You cant determine the word unless you had vowel points hundreds of year later to make the distinction.
The Isaiah passage uses ADNY in the DSS directly to YHWH himself. Just because you add the prefix and suffix to ADON, which is the root word, doesn’t change the Hebrew word itself. Vowel points are useless at the time of Christ and before.
I can see you don’t know the Hebrew from the DSS. This is the oldest texts we have in regard to the OT. Go compare the two and see the difference for yourself Jaco. Good luck with your review.
See post #18 from Joseph, I was under the impression that Psalm 110 was not in the DSS?
Well, Dr Al Garza,
I am very well aware of the issues surrounding Ps. 110:1. I am obviously more informed regarding these than you are, sadly for you. You are the one giving your presuppositions and indoctrination away by posting texts above devoid of the references to ADNY you’d have wanted them to have. Sorry, they’re not there, neither is your trinity invention.
Your argument is also very reductionistic. Just because there was not vowel pointings does not mean that ADNY by default means Adonai (Yahweh.) Obviously you would want that, else you’d be believing in a God-dishonoring heresy from the fourth century…well, I’ve got news for you. The Masoretes had NO agenda, and I’ve given you a valid and solid argument above. Obviously you’d want to prove an agenda, because you need that to defend your doctrine. Secondly, Yahweh is already mentioned, so the second referent cannot be Yahweh again. Thirdly, you need to brush up on your literature studies on the matter, esp. by scholars such as McGrath, Dunn and Hays who go into quite detail, esp. with regard to the ancient Christian understanding of the text. And sadly for you, proves monotheism, not Trinitarianism.
I’m afraid you’re also ignorant of the Targummim’s rendering of the text, showing the second referent to be completely human and that was the understanding the ancient Jews taught their learners from these Paraphrases.
1 Cor. 15:28 sets the matter even further straight, in that it says expressedly that God is exempted from the “all things” being subjected to Jesus. Whoever you think the second Lord is, it’s not God, sorry!
You’re assuming that there was no distinction drawn between the two lords based on the absence of vowel points alone…well, your assumption as been proven to be wrong.
I think you are the one proving to be ignorant, Dr. Al Garza. Or you may be so blinded and self-consumed by the Nicean heresy, your skew arguments sound blissfully true to yourself. I think you need a reality check.
Jesus is the human Lord Messiah, subject and inferior to the Almighty Yahweh (1 Tim. 2:5, 1 Cor. 15:28, 2 Cor. 1:3, 1 Cor. 11:3). That renders the Nicean/Chalcedonian inventions nothing less than God-dishonoring inventions.
I’m awaiting your response.
Thanks to all so much for engaging this vital point (no pun!). The Trinity has been imposed on the Bible! One of the most significant ways this has been done is by writing Lord (capital L) and not lord, for the second lord of Ps. 110:1. This is a fraud, since it hides the Hebrew word and also breaks the translators own plan of writing Lord only for ADONAI (LORD GOD) (which is not the word for the second lord!).
First note that this psalm provides an entire framework for the NT. It is the golden text. Jesus used it to silence all objectors and so can we! The second lord is ADONI, which is the non-Deity title all 195 times. Dr. White pulled out a copy of the DSS and we were not taken aback (just curious to see what he had on his little pad), because all he could offer was that there are no points in the Hebrew of the DSS (Thus adoni and adonai look alike as consonants ADNY). Everyone in scholarship knows that! Nothing new.
The written Hebrew did not have vowel points in the first century. That is common knowedge.
But that is quite a different thing from saying that the Masoretes later deliberately and wrongly wrote Adoni (my lord) for Adonai (LORD GOD). The rabbis discussed this verse much earlier than the time of the official pointing (vowels). They thought it might be David at the right hand, or Abraham or Melchizedek. All that would be foolish nonsense if the text was read as ADONAI! (GOD).
Here is the point. Jesus quoted this Psalm in Mark 14 and Stephen cited it in Acts 7, as he died. Who was there at the right hand? The SON OF MAN (not GOD!). They knew that is was not GOD speaking to GOD! That shows that adoni is perfectly correct.
If any of you is interested in helping with making our point about the critical difference between ADONAI/ ADONI, could you email me please at anthonybuzzrad@mindspring.com. I have an idea!
Hello everyone,
I have been busy lately, but I’m back to finishing my article I promised I’d release that focuses on refuting Dr. Brown’s statements regarding the usage of ADNY in Judges 6:15. I’m going to focus on it and have it posted for you by this weekend. Just need to brush up on some details.
Dr. Al Garza,
I believe you have fallen to over-generalizing lack of research like your colleagues Dr. White and Dr. Brown often do. Are you aware that the TarJonathon and other Targums that are dated pre-2nd century before there was possibility of Christian bias, support Masorete usage of vowel markings where the LXX and other MSS differ with each other? You have brought up the argument that somehow there was over a thousand year gap between Masorete vowel markings and the Original DSS Hebrew, and that somehow means the credibility of the MS is tainted. But, what you fail to realize is that the Targums bridge that gap to around the same time (liberally), to a few hundred years after (conservatively) of the vowel-ess Hebrew.
Jaco, you can make all the rude remarks you want and I can sit here and call you ignorant as well. Very ignorant of the ancient Hebrew. You reference Dunn? Wow, then I reference Dr.Archer, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars. I am well aware of the ancient Jewish sources.
Your rude attitude makes you appear very blinded from the scriptures and by whoever you’r reading. ADNY is really ADN without the suffix, so go do a word study on the root word Adon.
The pre-existence of the Messiah is all over the NT. Hebrews 10:5 speaks of YHWH God and the body that is to be prepared for HIM. Revelation 1:8 speaks of the Almighty who is COMING, not the father who is coming but Jesus. The Father call Jesus “O Theos” in Hebrews 1:8 and Thomas call Jesus directly, “The Lord of me and the God of me”.
I can go on and on with verse after verse that is supported by many Greek scholars like Wallace, Metzger, Robertson, Mantey, Young etc.
The debate about Psalm 110:1 is small compared to the large body of texts that support Jesus as YHWH God. Jeremiah 23:6 calls the Messiah YHWH and is found in ancient Jewish texts as well.
Psalm 110:1 has support from scholars from both sides.
So Jaco, go read a book or something or grow some manners.
Joseph
You can read my response to your statement at my website were I have an article on Psalm 110:1. Just cut and paste.
http://nhbchristiantalk.webs.com/explainingpsalm1101.htm
Dr Al Garza,
Your article doesn’t answer any of my points.
In your article you said:
Firstly, I have already dubbed the argument, “The Masoretic Text Conspiracy Theory.”
What you ignored in my response was the fact that we have the Targums that bridge this gap of vowel-ess Hebrew and vowel-ed Herbrew. I don’t know if you are aware, but the Targums define for us the usage of the Hebrew root ADONY in a clearer manner. For example; in the Hebrew we need vowels (and context) to see exactly how the root; aleph, delet, vav, nun, yud, is vocalized. But with the Targums, being written in Aramaic, Hebrew’s close cousin, it’s very different. In the Targumic Aramaic, YHVH is written in a “yud-yud” abbreviation, and adoni is written as “reboni.” There is no root ADONY. So we can take these ancient Targum texts and match them up with other MSS to see if the MT is indeed accurate in the vocalizations of the Hebrew root ADONY. In my paper I’m about to release this weekend I explain an occurrence where the MT and other MSS differ on the usage of ADONY in Judges 6:15 and how the TarJon can be used to clear up the discrepancy. In fact, the MT is more consistent than the LXX and SyrPesh in this case.
Targums were used and are continued to be used in Judaism. It is said that for every Hebrew biblical passage read, the equivalent traditional Targum passage should be read as well. Many Targums are just as old if not older than the DSS. Targums were even found amongst the DSS.
Second, are you saying that Psalm 110 was found amongst the DSS? It seems in your article you don’t explain whether the verse Psalm 110 you cite under the title “DSS and MT” is cited from the DSS or not.
Dr Al Garza,
I don’t need you to lecture me on Hebrew. Just because I come to the opposite conclusions than you do and point out the flaws of your and others’ classical trinitarian slant you give to your arguments, doesn’t make me ignorant of Hebrew or the ancient manuscripts. Your judging my arguments as ignorance makes YOU the one who has an over-inflated ego and makes YOU the rude and insecure little dogmatist. So, unless YOU change your demeanor and start being willing to engage in a civilised manner, then EXPECT to meet some of your own medicine.
I am very well aware of ADN (adohn’) and its meanings. I’m also very well aware of the suffix, yod, and how it changes to ADNY. But I’m also well aware of the fact that ADNY by default does not mean EITHER Adonai or adoni. That’s why there were rabbinical commentaries, targummim or paraphrases and tradition, transmitting the understood meaning of those words. I AM VERY WELL AWARE OF IT. You don’t seem to be aware of the various understandings and speculative meanings the ancient Jews and Christians gave to this central text. If you were, you’d not have argued the way you did, especially not in line with James White, whose “scholarship” cannot remotely be compared to people like Dunn, McGrath, Van Leer, Schillebeeckx, Berkhof, Caird, Robinson, Knox, Harnack, Kuschel, etc., etc., etc. Scholars who obviously have no doctrinal axe to grind.
You barge into this discussion, flinging around attacks on people’s knowledge of Hebrew and the manuscripts, and you expect us to handle you with silk gloves?
So, Dr. Al Garza
You won’t get special treatment here. Don’t think you can come on here and push people around. WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE??? You have hit an obvious blooper with your Isaiah 21 and Psalm 1:1 references. Your arguments and conclusions are reductionistic at best.
Heb. 10:5 is no proof for your theology. Jesus “came into the world” just like every other human comes into the world:
Heb. 10:5 is a prophetic psalm of David and the LXX has David saying, “but you prepared a body for me.” This is NOT Yahweh speaking and certainly NOT Yahweh having a body prepared for him.
Rev. 1:8 is not proof either, since it covers God’s eternality: he is, he was and he will be (“is coming”). That does not preclude God coming IN someone else or becoming present THROUGH someone else. Simple principle of shaluach. Compare:
Heb. 1:8 is not proof either, since the LXX has God adressing the king. Does that make the king YHWH??? The ancient Jews didn’t feel threatened by this psalm, precisely since they understood the usage of elohim to not be limited to YHWH alone. No proof there.
Seeing Jesus means seeing God, because Jesus is God’s perfect image and imprint. Jesus articulated it in John 14, where he clearly said that seeing him means seeing the Father. You won’t be consistent in your argumentation, claiming Jesus to be the Father, would you? As the image of the Father Jesus SHOULD reflect the Father and that you would admit in connection with John 14:9. But you quickly change your tune with John 20:28, while this has the exact same meaning: Seeing Jesus means seeing God, since Jesus reflects God’s glory (Heb. 1:1-3)
I don’t see how the name, YHWH Tzid’qeinu proves that Christ is God. The theophoric name DOES NOT RENDER THE BEARER THEREOF DIVINE. Zedekiah means, Yah is Justice. Jonathan means Yah’s gift. Jochebed means Yah is glory. You won’t deify all these individuals, will you? Then why do it with Jesus? (because you have a doctrine to defend…)
I will most certainly continue to read many, many books, Dr. Al Garza. You should think about doing the same. And where it comes to manners, I’ll be the imitator and you the example…how’s that for a deal?
I hope we can discuss these issues further in CIVILITY.
Take care
I have two questions for Dr. Al Garza:
Is Jesus Yahweh or is he distinct from Yahweh?
Since you say in your comment above that Jesus is Yahweh, is Jesus the Most High, then?
Simple questions with simple answers.
Thanks
Jaco,
You began with the attacks so go back and read your own posts.
You clearly have no clue of the Hebrew scriptures since you rely only on the LXX for all your answers. You are wrong on Jer.23 and the ancient Jewish writing disagree with you as well. It is the Messiah who is to be named and proclaimed, literally in the Hebrew, YHWH…
Go read the book, “The Messiah Texts”, which deals with the view of the Messiah from the last three thousand years.
Hebrews 10 is stating clearly that Christ existed before he became man. Read the prepositions in the Greek.
Hebrews 1:8 still has God calling the son God.
Revelation is speaking of Jesus as the first and the last the Alpha and the Omega which is only spoken of YHWH God in Isaiah.
Thomas called him Lord and God in the Greek.
Jesus through out the NT is called God. The major Greek scholars like Wallace, Metzger, Mantey, Robertson, Young etc. all agree with me.
Who in the hell do I think I am? I am just a mere Christian who follows the YHWH God.
Take care Jaco.
Jaco
Yes to both questions, simple enough?
Jaco, here are some more references for you of Jesus being YHWH God.
God
references: Gen. 1:1; Psa. 45:6, 7; Isa. 9:6, 7; Zech. 13:7; 7:16; Ex. 3:4, 15; Num. 22:22; Dt. 4:34; 5:24; etc.
1 Tim. 3:16; John 1:1-14; 9:38; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8,9, 5:6; John 5:18; Rom. 9:5; Phil 2:5-11
________________________________________
Creator
references: Gen. 1:1, 2:7; Isa. 64:8; 44:24; 1 Kings 8:23; Prov. 16:4
Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:3; John 1:1; 14; Rev. 4:11; Heb. 1:8,10-12
________________________________________
Savior
references: Isa. 43:11; 45:15, 21; Isa. 9:6-7
Luke 2:11; Acts 5:31
________________________________________
Redeemer
References: Isa. 41:14; 49:26; 60:16; Hos. 13:4; Job 19:25; Psa. 49:8
Luke 1:68; Rom. 3:24; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Heb. 9:12
________________________________________
Almighty
References: Gen. 17:1
Rev. 1:7-8
________________________________________
Lord of Lords
References: Deut. 10:17
1 Tim. 6:15
________________________________________
King of Kings
References: Dan. 2:47
1 Tim. 6:15
________________________________________
Judge
References: Mic. 5:1; Isa. 33:22; 1 Sam. 2:10
John 5:22,7; Acts 10:42
________________________________________
LORD of all
References: Gen. 2:4; Gen. 14:2; Deut. 4:29
Acts 10:36
________________________________________
LORD of Glory
References: Psa. 24:8; Isa. 40:5
John 1:1-3, 14; 1 Cor. 2:8
________________________________________
Rock
References: Psa. 18:31; Deut. 32:3-4
1 Cor. 10:4
________________________________________
Husband
References: Jer. 31:32
2 Cor. 11:2
________________________________________
King of Israel
References: Isa. 44:6; Zech. 9:9
John 1:49; Matt. 2:2
________________________________________
Prince
References: Isa. 9:6
Heb. 2:10
________________________________________
Holy One
References: Isa. 41:14; Isa. 43:15
Acts 3:14; Mark 1:24
________________________________________
Eternal One
References: Micah 5:2; Psa. 90:2
Matt. 2:6; John 8:58
________________________________________
Pre-Existent One
References: Ex. 3:14
John 8:56-59
________________________________________
Omnipresent One
References: 1 Kings 8:27
Matt. 28:20
________________________________________
The Only God
References: 1 Chron. 29:11
Rev. 4:11
________________________________________
Shepherd
References: Psa. 23:1
John 10:11,16
________________________________________
Only Savior
References: Isa. 12:2; Jer 3:23; Jon. 2:9; Zech 9:9; Psa. 68:19; Psa. 79:9
John 1:12; Acts 4:12
________________________________________
Aleph and Tav
References: Isa. 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
Rev. 1:8, 11; 21:6; 22:13
________________________________________
Every knee shall bow
References: Isa. 45:23
Rom. 14:11; Phil. 2:10
________________________________________
Confession Saves
References: Joel 2:32
Rom. 10:9-13
________________________________________
Faith in Him Saves
References: Hab. 2:4
Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11
________________________________________
Son of God
References: Psa. 2:2-9; 45:6; 110; Prov. 30:4
Heb. 1:8-9; Matt. 22:44
________________________________________
Searcher of hearts
References: Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9
Rev. 2:23
________________________________________
Virgin Born
References: Isa. 7:14
Matt. 1:23
________________________________________
I AM
References: Isa. 43:10
John 8:24
________________________________________
Lion of Judah
References: Gen. 49:9; Hos. 5:14
Rev. 5:5
________________________________________
True Light
References: Psa. 27:1
John 1:9; 8:12
________________________________________
Honored
References: Psa. 30:1
John 5:23-24
________________________________________
Pierced One
References: Zech. 12:10
John 19:34-37
________________________________________
Stone of Stumbling
References: Isa. 8:13-4
1 Pet. 2:7-8
________________________________________
The Full Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ
Here are some additional considerations about the Person of Jesus that clearly indicates that He is a co-equal member of hashilush hakodesh (the “Holy Trinity”), and therefore is none other than God Himself (note that some of the following points have been adapted from the Christian Think Tank and its discussion regarding the Trinity).
1. Biblical Evidence Demonstrates that Jesus is God.
o Citations from the Tanakh in the New Testament show that Jesus is YHVH Himself (Matt 11:10; 1 Cor. 10:26; Rom. 10:9-13; Eph. 4:8; Heb 1:8ff).
See also the table (shown above).
o
The earliest materials (e.g. hymns, blessings, prayers, formulas, doxologies embedded within the New Testament) indicate that the early church recognized Jesus as God, equal with the Father (Phil. 2:6-11; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 3:16; Matt. 28:19; 1 Thess. 3:11; 2 Thess. 2:16; 1 Cor. 16:21).
o
Jesus is singled out for glorification by the Church (Heb. 13:20-21;
2 Peter 3:18; Rev. 1:5-6).
o
Jesus is consistently called “Lord”– a very misleading title if He were not God (close to 200 times), especially given the fact that the LXX (Septuagint) uses this term to refer to YHVH.
o
The angels belong to Him (2 Thess. 1:7) and are commanded to worship Him (Heb. 1:6).
o
Jesus is described in words like ‘glorious’ and ‘Lord of Glory,’ etc. (James 2:1;
1 Cor. 2:8).
o
The “Spirit of Christ” is identified with the “Spirit of God” (Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8:9-11; Phil. 1:19; 1 Pet 1:11), and the “mind of the Lord” is dentified with the “mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:16).
o
Jesus is called Savior (Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6) as is the Father (1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10). For references to YHVH being called Savior, see the table above.
o
He is to be co-extensive with the Father in being praised (Rom. 1:25 with Rom. 9:5; Phil. 1:20; Rev. 5:12ff ) and in worship and glory (2 Tim. 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Heb. 1:6; Rev. 5:12ff ) and even in being offered a sacrifice (Rev. 14:4).
o
He explicitly is called God (1 Tim. 3:16, Acts 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; John 20:28; 2 Pet. 1:1; Heb. 1:8ff; John 1:1; John 1:18; 1 John 5:20; Rev. 1:1 with 22:6,16) or some derivative thereof (Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:6-11).
2. His claims to pre-existence.
Jesus claimed the have been pre-existent before his birth. Indeed, He stated clearly that He existed before Avraham avinu (John 8:58-59). Throughout John’s gospel, moreover, Jesus is shown to have been pre-existent in heaven with glory before His incarnation (John 3:13; 6:33; 6:38; 6:62; 8:23; 8:42; 10:30-39; 16:28; 17:5).
He is described as pre-existent in glory with the Father (Gal. 4:4; 1 Cor. 15:47; 2 Cor. 8:9; Rom. 8:3; 1 Tim. 1:15; Eph. 4:9; Col. 1:15-17; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 1:2; John 1:2-3; John 1:14; John 3:31-32; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 3:8; 1 John 4:2, 9;) and active at the time of Moses (Heb. 11:26).
He created all things in the universe, including angels (Col. 1:15-17; Heb. 1:2; John 1:2-3; John 1:10).
3. His claims relative to worship as God.
o Jesus promised to come in ‘the glory of the Father’ (Mark 8.38) and held himself out as a legitimate object for religious faith (Mark 9:42; John 3:15; John 9:35f) even to the same extent as the Father (John 14.1).
o
Jesus never corrected those who either accused venerated Him of making himself equal to God (Mark 2:5ff; John 5:17ff; John 8:58-59; John 10:30-39; John 20:28).
o
Jesus claimed loyalty greater than all human loyalties (Matt. 10:37), including that He should be honored co-extensively with the Father (John 5:17f). He further claimed the Father is seeking Jesus’ glory (John 8:50 with 8:54b; John 13:31) and that the two are linked in unity (John 11:4).
o
Jesus used the divine epithet “I AM” (John 8:58-59, 24, 28).
o
Jesus accepted worship without rebuke, and even with commendation
(John 9:35-38).
Indeed, some claims of Jesus make no sense if He were not God Himself:
o
Jesus claims that his words will outlast time itself (Mark 13:31).
o
He claims that the eternal destiny of people depend on their response to HIM! (Matt. 7:21ff; Matt. 25:17ff).
o
He claims to have been the only one to have seen the Father (John 6:46; John 8:38 with Exodus 33:20).
o
He claims to be absolutely perfect/sinless – He ALWAYS pleases the Father (John 8:29; John 8:46).
o
Jesus makes statements that are completely ludicrous if he is not God (John 14:28; John 15:5; John 17:10).
4. His Authority as God.
o To forgive sins (Mark 2:5ff; Luke 7:48f).
o
Over the Sabbath (Mark 2:28; Matt. 12:8).
o
Jesus claims that the elect are his and that the angels are his (Mark 13:26f) (either in possession or authority over).
o
Over the Torah (Matt 5:21). Jesus implied this by His numerous, “but I say to you…”, indicating divine authority over the words of Torah (Matt. 5).
o
Over evil and principalities (Luke 10:19; John 17:2).
o
To confer a kingdom — in the SAME MANNER that the Father does (Luke 22:29f).
o
To send the Holy Spirit of God (Luke 24:49; John 4:10 with 7:37-39; John 15:26; John 16:7).
o
The angels belong to Him (2 Thess. 1:7) and are to worship Him (Heb. 1:6).
o
His is Lord of ALL (Acts 10:36).
o
The Father put ALL things under His feet (1 Cor. 15:27).
5. His Equality with the Father.
o
Jesus claims that one’s response to Jesus is equated to one’s response to God (John 15:23).
o
Jesus claims that to see Him is to see the Father (John 14:9).
o
He claims to be, and is repeatedly called, the potentially blasphemous title “Son of God” (Mark 14:62 et. al.).
o
He NEVER corrects those who accuse him of making himself equal to God (Mark 2:5ff; John 5:17ff; John 8:58-59; John 10:30-39) nor those who called him “GOD” (John 20:28).
o
He claims to be on a par with the Father and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19).
o
He claims that his coming was the same as God’s coming (Luke 19:43ff).
o
He claims to operate co-extensively with the Spirit (Mark 21:14-15 with Matt. 10 and Mark 13).
o
He claims to operate co-extensively with the Father (John 5:17ff; John 10:30-39; John 15:9).
6. His Unique relationship with the Father.
o
Jesus considered His Sonship relationship with the Father to be ABSOLUTELY unique (Mark 12:1-11; John 20:17).
o
He claims to be the unique Heir of God (Mark 12:1-11).
o
He claims to have EXCLUSIVE knowledge of the Father (Matt. 11:27; John 7:28-29).
o
He claims to have been the only one to have seen the Father (John 6:46; John 8:38).
o
He claims to be absolutely perfect/sinless; He ALWAYS pleases the Father
(John 8:29; John 8:46).
7. His exalted nature and power.
o
Jesus is often linked to the word ‘Lord’ (Mark 11:3; Mark 5:19-20).
o
Jesus claimed to be greater than King David (Mark 12:35-37), than the Temple (Matt 12:6), than the prophet Jonah (Matt. 12:41), than King Solomon (Matt. 12:42).
o
He claimed that his rank in the universe is superior to the angels (Mark 13:32).
o
He implies that he is, or will be, omnipresent (Matt. 18:20; Matt. 28:19).
o
He claims to have access to knowledge of the future and events occurring in heaven (Luke 22:31).
o
He claims to be able to give freedom (John 8:36).
o
He claims to be able to raise himself from the dead (John 10:17ff).
8. How those around Christ responded to Him.
o
God calls him “Son” and declares that He is “pleased” with Jesus (Matt. 3:16).
o
God tells some of the disciples to pay attention to Jesus (Matt. 17:5).
o
Evil spirits knew he was the Son of God (Matt. 8:28-29; Mark 3:11ff) and the Holy One of God (Mark 1:23f).
o
His enemies knew he was claiming to be God (Matt. 9:3; Matt. 26:63ff; John 5:18; John 10:33) — and accused him of blasphemy.
o
Some of the general populace called/considered him God (Luke 7:16; Luke 8:39-40).
o
John the Baptist recognized Jesus’ RADICAL superiority to himself (Matt. 3:13; John 1:26-30, 34).
o
The disciples and those whose lives He touched WORSHIPPED Him (Matt. 14:33; John 9:35ff).
o
He was repeatedly called the Son of God (Matt. 14:33; Matt. 16:16; John 1:26-30, 34; John 1:49; John 11:27).
o
He was called “God” directly (John 20:27f).
o
Later Rabbinical writings ‘remember’ some of these exorbitant claims of Jesus.
From careful consideration of these Scriptures, it is manifestly the case that Yeshua Ha-Mashiach is identified as no other than the LORD (YHVH) of the Tanakh, and is therefore to be worshipped, honored, and revered as YHVH.
“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son (Yeshua), even as they honour the Father (YHVH). He that honoureth not the Son (Yeshua) honoureth not the Father (YHVH) which hath sent him.” (John 5:22-23).
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
(1 John 5:12)
Hello Dr. Al Garza,
Regarding your comments on Hebrews 10:5. Throughout Hebrews 10, two types of bodies being discussed. Christ’s own individual body (10:10, 10:20), and the collective body of Christ (10:21, 10:25). Psalm 40 reflects this as well, speaking of an individual (40:7) and that individual in the midst of the assembly (40:10).
Additionally, the intent of Hebrews 10 is to encourage perseverance in the face of persecution (10:33-36) by pointing the collective body of Christ to the example of the author of their faith, Jesus Christ the individual man.
Hebrew 10:20 uses the word sarx, or flesh, to describe the sacrifice of his flesh. But notice that the word for body used in Hebrews 10:5 is soma, which can refer to an individual or an assembly of people in close knit community.
For these reasons, I think it’s legitimate to understand Heb 10:5 as referencing the body of Christ – the church – which God has called in advance according to his purpose in Christ Jesus.
No, Dr. Al Garza, if you go back, you’ll find that you were the one on the offensive:
And what’s so funny, then you post scriptures, such as Isaiah 21 and Psalm 1:1 which don’t even contain what you hoped they contained…now isn’t that a ricochet…
You cannot be civil, can you, Dr. Al Garza? Well, that won’t stop me from exposing your and other traditional deceptions. Here goes:
Well, ignoring your insult (or maybe you insulted yourself), I did not rely on the LXX in my answer to you regarding Jeremiah 23. I rely on the Hebrew:
בְּיָמָיו תִּוָּש×Ö·×¢ יְהוּדָה, וְיִשְׂרָ×ֵל יִש×ְכֹּן לָבֶטַח; וְזֶה-שּ×ְמוֹ ×ֲש×ֶר-יִקְרְ×וֹ, יְהוָה ×¦Ö´×“Ö°×§Öµ× ×•Ö¼.
The last sentence, v’zeh-sh’mo asher-yiq’roo, yhwh tzid’qenu. And my position still stands that a theophoric name, Yahweh our righteousness, does not render the bearer of that name identical to Yahweh. If it did, then you had to worship Zedekiah (Yah is Justice) Jonathan (Yah’s gift) and Jochebed (Yah is glory) among many, many others. You won’t and for the very same reason you shouldn’t worship Jesus as Yahweh or deify Jesus as Yahweh…So you still have no point here.
The original text in the LXX (here the text IS taken from the LXX and not the MT, if you didn’t know…) did not apply to Yahweh but to David. The antitypical David, or Messiah now, fulfills this text in the same way. Not the original, nor the fulfilled meaning of this text necessitates pre-existence, making your point a creation of your imagination. The Greek, eisercho’menos eis ton ko’smon does not imply preexistence, sorry. John 16:21 also has the preposition “eis” in “egenhthh…eis ton kosmon” and is applied to every human, anthropos, in general. So, still no point here, unless you believe every human must have a prehuman existence….
If you deify the son to son God, then, for the same reason (being called God), you’ll have to deify the original human recipient of the oracle. But you won’t and there lies your inconsistency and do you give your indoctrination away…no point, sorry.
Jesus is never called the Alpha and Omega. He is called the first and the last and Revelation explains why:
“I was dead, but look, now I am aliveâ€. Also, Acts 26.23 “Christ, the first to rise from the deadâ€; 1Cor 15.20,23, “Christ the first fruits of the deadâ€. You need Jesus to be Yahweh, hence your ignoring the explanation rendered for his designation and your defaulting to your indoctrination. No point here either.
Yes! because Thomas saw Someone else in Jesus: namely the Original of whom Jesus was the image. You need to get past that, and not merely repeat your refuted claims. First-year apologetics students fare better than you do…LOL!
Oh, no, neither you nor your prejudiced sources are correct on this one. And even if it were the case, you need to prove that Jesus is called God in the Nicean/Chalcedonian sense and not in the representative sense of ancient Jewish shaluach principle or authority sense as in Psalm 82. Your scholars won’t change this, sorry. Modern-day scholars have also moved past such out-dated and dogmatically slanted “scholarship.” You should brush up on your reading…
Well, your demeanor and attitude will confirm or refute your very pious self-portrait above…
Take one-by-one or as a whole, the Bible is the word of God, the Father, Yahweh, who is Yahweh alone and no one else – not even Jesus Christ.
My first question is, if Jesus is Yahweh or if he is distinct from Yahweh. Do you answer yes to the first or the second clause?
I’ll reply to your answer above and the second answer shortly…
Sarah and Jaco,
JCING
1 Timothy 6:
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Sarah
The soma is the same word Jesus uses in John 2 regarding his resurrection. He said he would raise the temple in three days. John says he was talking about his BODY=Soma in Greek. Hebrews 10 is not the church. The text is a literal reading.
Jaco
Enough with the insults for both of us. Lets just deal with scriptures from a civil and academic standpoint. Agreed?
1.”The last sentence, v’zeh-sh’mo asher-yiq’roo, yhwh tzid’qenu. And my position still stands that a theophoric name, Yahweh our righteousness, does not render the bearer of that name identical to Yahweh. If it did, then you had to worship Zedekiah (Yah is Justice) Jonathan (Yah’s gift) and Jochebed (Yah is glory) among many, many others. You won’t and for the very same reason you shouldn’t worship Jesus as Yahweh or deify Jesus as Yahweh…So you still have no point here.”
You are not in line with ancient Jewish literature on this verse. The Hebrew grammar does not agree with you either. Your interpretation is only for yourself. That proves nothing from the Hebrew grammar which you fail to look at.
The text reads with the Messiah being NAMED YHWH and he shall be call OUR RIGHTOUSNESS. Your are being dishonest with the grammar.
2.”If you deify the son to son God, then, for the same reason (being called God), you’ll have to deify the original human recipient of the oracle. But you won’t and there lies your inconsistency and do you give your indoctrination away…no point, sorry.”
This is your answer to Hebrews 1:8? Show me a verse in the OT or the NT where God calls a man “O Theos” “the God”. Very weak from an academic point of view.
3.”Jesus is never called the Alpha and Omega. He is called the first and the last and Revelation explains why:
“I was dead, but look, now I am aliveâ€. Also, Acts 26.23 “Christ, the first to rise from the deadâ€; 1Cor 15.20,23, “Christ the first fruits of the deadâ€. You need Jesus to be Yahweh, hence your ignoring the explanation rendered for his designation and your defaulting to your indoctrination. No point here either.”
You should read Revelation 22:12 where Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega and he is COMING quickly which he states in verse 16 at the end of Revelation which again you ignore, “I Jesus…Yes I am COMING SOON”
4.Yes! because Thomas saw Someone else in Jesus: namely the Original of whom Jesus was the image. You need to get past that, and not merely repeat your refuted claims. First-year apologetics students fare better than you do…LOL!
WOW are you really this ignorant of Greek scholarship? No Greek NT scholar says that Thomas saw someong else inside him. What great NT are you reading? The grammar makes no such claim. First semester Greek NT students know more then you LOL HAHAH!
Thomas proclaims Jesus directly as HIS LORD and HIS GOD.
Ron S.
This is troubling to say the least. To undermine the Hebrew scriptures is not only a sign of desperation on the part of these people but sheer lunacy!!
There is no evidence whatsoever that Ps 110.1 is somehow corrupt or erroneous let alone misunderstood by Judaism eons before Jesus came along.
YHWH said to YHWH? Really? REALLY?! :/
Just a word on the often-used trini argument where Jesus is said to “come into the world” from G.E. Ladd, A Theology of the NT, 1993, p. 261:
Italics & bold added.
Xavier
I understand your point but nobody said, “YHWH said to YHWH” here. The point being made is that before the MT they had the DSS and in the DSS the Hebrew word that was used was “ADNY” without the vowel points. If you look at the MT it is spelled the same, “ADNY”. The only difference is the vowel points which were added to make the distinction.
Now the passages in Isaiah and in Psalms use the Hebrew word for “ADNY” for YHWH as well. You can’t make the distinction until the MT which is hundreds of years later after Jesus.
So was it Adonai or Adoni? I believe the answer is in verse 5 of Psalm 110 where it says Adonai is at the right hand which goes back to verse 1. Verses 1-4 is all YHWH up until verse 5 where it changes to Adonia who is at the right hand.
That is all that is being said here, sorry for the confusion if any.
Xavier
Again, thanks for your input. The other passages we look are the passages were Jesus says:
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 6:38)
The Jews understand that the human body is only an earthly tent and vessal but Jesus claimed to have come down from heaven directly which means he had to exist before the incarnation. That is what Paul teaches in Phil.2:6-8
The present active participle “huparkho” in the Greek, according to Thayer means “being originally” in the form of God before the incarnation, NOT AFTER. The Greek grammar does not allow any other interpretation.
“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
Please check this out carefully. Thanks agian Xavier.
Dr Garza
Just to clarify I was not suggesting the text says, “YHWH said to YHWH” but that is the interpretation you are giving it. Is it not? If so, that makes 1 YHWH too many according to the Jewish-Christian creed [Deu 6.4; Mar 12.29].
Are you referring to the Jews of the Bible or sections of modern-day Jews? 2nd Temple Judaism certainly didn’t believe that.
So let me get this straight…in John 6 Jesus is actually teaching that he LITERALLY came down as a flesh, human being [“son of man”]?
Wouldn’t this mean that prior to him “taking on flesh” at the Incarnation, he was already “in the flesh”?
Xavier
I undersand what you were saying. I was correcting you when you said that is what trinitarians believe. We do not say, “YHWH said to YHWH”.
We say, “YHWH said to Adonai”
2. “Are you referring to the Jews of the Bible or sections of modern-day Jews? 2nd Temple Judaism certainly didn’t believe that.”
I am referring to the apostle Paul who makes this distintion in his letter, 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15:47. This was the clear understanding at that time.
3. “So let me get this straight…in John 6 Jesus is actually teaching that he LITERALLY came down as a flesh, human being [“son of man”]?”
No, I am not saying that at all. This is why I quoted you Phil.2:6-8 concerning the Messiah existing in the form of God before the incarnation. Read Phil.2:5-8. It is very clear in the Greek (see below)
“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.â€
Thanks again for your response.
Dr Garza
Who is Adonai then? And I thought you said here that you do believe Jesus is YHWH. BTW, not all trinis believe it reads this way, one of them being Dr. Michael Brown over at his Line of Fire site.
Your not answering my initial question to your John 6.38 reference. What is Jesus really saying here? Is he the preexistent human/flesh Son of Man who LITERALLY came down out of heaven? If so, what does this say about your Orthodox view regarding the Incarnation; where the he “took on flesh/humanity”?
Xavier
Adonai is another name for YHWH. The distinction is being made.
You need to read Dr.Browns vol.3 book on “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”. He agrees with me on the Psalm 110 about the vowel points and how no distinction can be made in the DSS.
1. “Your not answering my initial question to your John 6.38 reference. What is Jesus really saying here? Is he the preexistent human/flesh Son of Man who LITERALLY came down out of heaven? If so, what does this say about your Orthodox view regarding the Incarnation; where the he “took on flesh/humanityâ€?”
Xavier, I answered your question from scripture. God is spirit correct? Jesus claimed to come down from heaven to take on a human form and be the savior and redeemer of mankind. That is what Phil.2:5-8 says. You have not answered or commented on that verse.
He was in the form of God and God is spirit according to Jesus in the gospel of John. Jesus did not have a body of flesh in heaven before the incarnation. No trinitarian believes that.
Hi Dr. Al Garza,
You have mentioned Phil 2:5-8 several times now. If I may interject once again, this passage doesn’t refer to pre-existence.Â
As the last Adam, Jesus was indeed in the form of God. So was the first Adam before he sinned. Did the first Adam pre-exist as a spirit being, since he too was the “image of God” and the “son of God”? Of course not. Neither did Jesus.
The first Adam considered equality with God something to be grasped. He chose disobedience and seized the fruit that Satan said would make him “like God”. Jesus, however, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. When he was tempted by Satan in the desert to rule over the kingdoms of the world, Jesus set aside his legitimate right to do so as the Son of God. Instead, he obediently humbled himself for the sake of his people, spending the next three and a half years serving Israel – even to the point of death on a cross. This is the true humility of Christ.Â
Sarah
Thanks for your reply. I would suggest you read 1 Cor.15:47 very carefully. (below)
“The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.”
You also need to read and understand the passage from the grammar of the Greek. Phil.2 makes it clear that he was in the FORM of God before the incarnationa and then took on the FORM of a SERVANT/MAN. Read it carefully. (below)
“who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.â€
The present active participle “huparkho†in the Greek, according to Thayer means “being originally†in the form of God before the incarnation, NOT AFTER. The Greek grammar does not allow any other interpretation.
dr Al Garza,
isosceles triangle has two equal but not the same angles and sides
Dr Garza
What distinction? Your still saying YHWH is speaking to YHWH here.
He nonetheless accepts the MT reading of the text; as EVERY OTHER Jew going all the way back to the LXX in the 300s B.C. did. Brown even agrees with his opponent Rabbi Singer on the reading of adoni:
pp. 134-135.
We can deal with that seperately I am just interested in your interpretation of your first citation of John 6.38 and all the phrase “come/coming down/out of heaven”. You are claiming that this is to be taken LITERALLY. So once again…is Jesus saying that he LITERALLY came down out of heaven in the flesh, as the son of man? And how does this harmonize with the Orthodox view of the Incarnation?
Dr. Al Garza
1. On Jeremiah 23:6
I am not being dishonest with the grammar. If I am dishonest, then I suppose the Trinitarian commentators of the NET Bible are also dishonest:
Secondly, since grammar is the factor determining the one being raised up to be Yahweh, then you have a problem, for the exact grammar is used elsewhere, where Jerusalem is to be called Yahweh our righteousness:
23:6 “and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, Yahweh our Righteousness.â€
v’zeh-sh’mo asher-yiq’roo, yhwh tzid’qenu;
33:16 “and this [is the name] wherewith she shall be called, Yahweh our righteousness.â€
v’zeh asher-yiq’raa-lah, yhwh tzid’qenu;
Based on the GRAMMAR then, we see Jerusalem being called identically the same as the one in 23:6. Using your argument consistently, then, Jerusalem is Yahweh.
2. On Heb. 1:8
I’m afraid that’s not the case.
– Raymond E. Brown, Jesus, God and Man, pp. 24-25.
I couldn’t have said it any better myself. From an academic point of view, your statement above is a little overzealous…
3. On Jesus being the first and the last.
First off, in Revelation is an apocalyptic text where Jesus speaks on Yahweh’s behalf (Re. 1:1). Secondly, the titles shared by Jesus and Yahweh in no way make Jesus ontologically identical to Yahweh. That would be as logically flawed as saying, The Father is our Saviour, Jesus is our Saviour, therefore Jesus is the Father. You won’t apply such logic here, because you have a dogma to defend. What is more, this is perfectly in line with the valid Jewish usage of shaluach – something you and other Trinitarians solidly ignore:
You may not agree with the above. But you are free to believe what you want to believe…
4. Thomas’ exclamation
Let’s start with your logic (or the lack thereof). Your argument goes like this:
If you see Jesus, you see God (John 20:28). Therefore Jesus is himself God.
Argued consistently, then, you’ll have to become a Modalist, because your line of reasoning will have you conclude the following:
If you see Jesus, you see the Father (John 14:9). Therefore Jesus is himself the Father.
This is where you Trinitarians are and remain stuck with regard to John 20:28. This is a catch-22 you won’t get out of, precisely because you have to either reason inconsistently, or turn Modalist…you choose the lesser of two evils, because you have a sacred cow to defend.
The correct way of reasoning should be:
When you see an image, you also see the original it is the image of. Jesus was the image of God. Therefore Thomas saw God when he saw Jesus
And,
When you see an image, you also see the original it is the image of. Jesus was the image of the Father. Therefore Philip saw the Father when he saw Jesus.
Problem solved 🙂
Now for the great NT scholars in agreement with the above:
You and other Trinitarians make one central problem by denying the Hebraic Messiah of his functional identity with God and hybridizing him with Hellenistic ontological categories that were utterly alien to the ancient Hebraic thought. What is even worse is that Messianic Jews, who are supposed to uphold this truth are all too happy to worship a Hellenistic-Jewish hybrid Christ-god. This error is very eloquently stated by JAT Robinson himself, where he said:
I think something you people will have to make peace with is that our position is the exact position some of the world’s best scholars agree with. As these scholars’ influence spreads in their lecturing halls and Sunday schools, more and more will learn about the real human Jesus, distinct from his Almighty Father, Yahweh. (Or maybe you can write them and also tell them they have no clue what the Hebrew and the Hebrew mss. say 😉 …)So that all honor, in Jesus’ name, will go to the One who is God alone, namely the Father (Php. 2:11)
Also, not to forget, Ps. 110:1 is a solidly unitary monotheistic text, DISTINGUISHING Yahweh from the one he gives authority to at his right hand. The absence of the vowel points is a red herring and WAYYYYYY too much is made of it in an attempt to remove the obvious sting this text has on Nicean/Chalcedonian trinitarianism. So we still have Yahweh speaking to someone else who is ADNY. This second someone cannot be Adonai, since Yahweh, the one speaking, is Adonai, and he alone. This also ignores the ancient speculative understanding given to the second ‘lord’ of the oracle, placing him squarely within the human realm, the Targummim that confirms this, as well as the First-century Christian understanding of the text, depicting this ‘lord’ as utterly human, highly exalted, yet subjected to the True God, the Father (1 Cor. 11:3, 1 Cor. 15:20-28).
Thanks,
Jaco van Zyl
Dr. Al Garza
1 Cr 15 is frequently presumed to draw a dichotomy between the physical and immaterial, due to the Gnostic influcences of Greek culture upon the theology of the church. Paul’s comparison here is actually between a mortal human (Adam) and a resurrected human (Jesus).
Adam was originally sinless. Jesus also was originally sinless. Both men had the same starting point, but Jesus did not fall. When he took the “form of a servant” in Phil 2, he refused his rights as the unfallen Adam, accepting instead the punishment of the fallen Adam on his behalf.
1 Cr 15:48 says Christians are from heaven just as Christ is from heaven. Yet we did not pre-exist our pysical births. 1 Cr 15 clearly has the resurrection in view throughout the entire passage. The idea of pre-existence is absent and unnecessary.
The passage does not use the phrase “before the incarnation”. You’ve imposed that assumption upon the text. “Being originally” does not require him to pre-exist his own birth. Luke 1:35 clearly tells us his point of origin was in Mary’s womb.
Jaco
Just to add to the title of “first and the last” in Revelation early on Newton identified a corruption when it came to the title of “Alpha & Omega” and “Almighty”:
http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/view/texts/normalized/THEM00264
Xavier,
Thanks for that Newton study. Very interesting.
Citing the MSS evidence in regards to the MT vocalization is precisely what I’ve been trying to explain to Dr Al Garza in my comment #43 above, in which he has blatantly ignored to respond. The reason is, is because he would find out that Dr. Brown and Dr. White have over-generalized and under studied their position as to the MSS evidence in regards to the correct vocalization of the second Lord in Psalm 110:1. I have made this clear by citing the un-biased Targum evidence we have that pre-dates the hundreds of years of “Christian bias” that Trinitarians claim the Masoretes had. So, this in fact, proves that the Masoretes had no bias as to what vocalization was used. They were simply trying to be accurate based upon tradition and knowledge.
Dr Al Garza also seems to be taking Dr. Brown’s work as empirical as he said here…
I have read this chapter out of Dr. Brown’s book and it is full of sloppy under-research that is very misleading. For example, in section 4 of his vol. 3 book he cites passage Judges 6:15 as being evidence that the Masoretic vocalization could have changed due to the disagreement in MSS evidence. He points out that where the MT translates as ‘adonai’ the LXX translates as ‘kurious mou – adoni.’ Naturally this leads one to think that because the LXX is a earlier MSS, that it must be more accurate, and the Masoretes could have made a mistake. But what Dr. Brown failed to research, is that not all LXX manuscripts agree. He generalized the Septuagint, which is a common error. Also, he failed to mention that even many of the LXX manuscripts we have are copies from hundred of years later. The codex alexandrinus in fact agrees with the MT usage of Adonai, and is more consistent than both the codex vaticanus, and codex sinaiticus when compared to similar passages regarding Judges 6:15. This is just one example in which more detail is involved. But, I don’t want to get ahead of myself as the paper I’m going to release this weekend will go into detail as to all the MSS evidence and what it means in response to Dr. Brown’s spurious claims.
Jaco
One quick comment on your comparison of Jer.23 and 33. Jeremiah does not use the Hebrew word “sh’mo” in 33:16. Only Jer.23:6 uses that Hebrew word for naming the Messiah YHWH. You need to read the Hebrew text better. In Jer.33 Israel will PROCLAIM “yiqro” YHWH as her righteousness not naming her YHWH.
Xavier
I already explained more then once about Jesus preexisting in heaven. He was not in Heaven in a physical body. I gave you the passages to support this and even quoted one to Sarah. Please review what I said. Thanks again for this discussion.
Jaco
I don’t know what you’re cutting a pasting but even Anthony Buzzard admits that in Hebrews 1:8 God calls the Son “O Theos” and admits to this one instance.
Jaco
The Father is not called out savior. It is YHWH God who is our savior.
Also The Father being in Jesus and Jesus being in the Father does not make them one person. Thomas proclaimed Jesus as HIS God and HIS Lord not the Father within Him. Nowhere does the context support your view on this. You are giving me your interpretation not a grammatical argument.
So you’re telling me that trinitarian Greek and Hebrew scholars like Wallace, Metzger, Mantey, Young, Robertson, Archer, Kaiser etc. are not Great? Just scholars who only agree with you and are new to this subject in a historical standpoint? All the reformers and the Greek and Latin Fathers were wrong? I don’t think so.
Sarah
The Greek grammar makes it so, not my imposed view. Check the grammar and you will see what I am trying to say. He existed in the form of God before the incarnation. Then the text says that he emptied himself and became a man, incarnation. Please read again carefully.
Dr Garza
Then why use John 6.38 and the “come down/out of heaven” sayings in support of your preexistence?
Can you please comment on the quote I posted regarding your seeming disagreement with Dr Brown on Ps 110.1?
Lastly, is the Shema that is agreed upon by both Jesus and the Jewish scribe in Mar 12.29-32 a unitarian or trinitarian creed?
Xavier
I used that passage in John to show that he existed before the incarnation. He took on a physical form in the incarnation. Jesus did not say ” I came from physical birth only”. The leaders were the ones suggesting your position in John 8. They believed as you do that Jesus was only a mere man. Jesus tells them that He came down from heaven and is not of human origin. Paul defends this in Phil.2:5-8.
I used Brown’s comment to show that he does have some agreement with me on the historical position of the MT. Ancient Hebrew is much different then Modern and the MT Hebrew. Brown is still a trinitarian regardless of how we translate Psalm 110:1 but I also believe that verse 5 supports the Adonai position. There you have Adonai who is at the right hand. It connects with verse 1. YHWH is mentioned I believe 4 times until verse 5. Then it changes to Adonai who is at the right hand.
The Shema is a Jewish creed not Unitarian or Trinitarian. The argument circles around the word “echad” as you know.
TO EVERYONE HERE
I would like to say that I can’t reply to everyone at the same time. Some of you post many things that take time to reply too. If you can ask one point at a time that would be greatly appreciated. I might miss some points but I am trying my best to respond quickly.
If I haven’t responded to your questions or missed one please let me know and I will respond as soon as I can. Thanks again to some of you for this discussion.
dr Al Garza,
this is to refresh your memory and for doing 2 tim 2:15
decrech benai adam=anthroopatheia=condescensio
QUESTION:
who is a priest for ever ? (thou & thy) in verse 1, 3 & 4
psalm 110:(kjv)
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Dr Garza
Actually, if we take it literally, Jesus is explicitly saying that he came down out of heaven ALREADY in the flesh, as the Son of Man. Notice the parallel of his flesh with that of the bread. Once again, the verses I already posted above found in John 6.41,51:
Add to this other teachings in the Gospel like John 3.13 where some MSS. have Jesus declaring that “no one has gone up to the heaven, except he who came down/out of heaven–the Son of Man who is in the heaven.”
I don’t get it. You, along with others like Dr. White, are throwing doubt on the MT reading of Ps 110.1 by pointing to other rare examples where the reading might be ambigous when it comes to adonai or adoni. But Dr. Brown does no such thing and instead actually agrees with Rabbi Singer on the distinctions, as I have quoted him above. Here’s more:
p. 138, f.278.
So if its neither, why revert to trinitarianism?
Timothy
According to the NT book of Hebrews it is the Lord Jesus. In Psalms it is referring to him as well. The whole of Psalm 110 is about the Messiah and verse 5 makes reference of him again as Adonai who is at the right hand from verse 1.
Thanks.
Hello Xavier
I don’t fully agree with your interpretation of John 6 because the whole gospel is around the meaning of Jesus being God from the opening of John 1:1-18. Phil.2:5-8 is the understanding by Paul of Jesus existing in the form of God and THEN becoming a servant/man. The form of God is being God. You can’t exist in the very form of God and not be God which is NOT FLESH.
Thank again Xavier for this discussion.
Xavier
Brown states in his book on page 137 the usage of Adoni to YHWH himself by believing the Angel of the Lord is also YHWH. He then goes on the say on that same page about the same spelling of “ADNY” before the vowel points and the usage in the MT and the vocalization of the text. He does not agree with Singer on these points.
Xavier
I reverted to trinitarianism because of the NT and the revelation of Jesus who claimed to be God and who was believed by the Apostles to be God. Through careful investigation I discovered the person of the Holy Spirit who is also identified as a person and God.
I found that there was a person who was called the Father and he was called God. I found there was a person who was called the Son and he was called God. I found that there was a person who was called the Holy Spirit and he was called God. Yet the bible says there is only one God. I came to the conclusion, as did all the early church fathers did, that the three persons were the one true God. I can’t fully comprehend how this works because Im not God but I know it to be true.
Dr Garza
Its your interpretation I am questioning here. I agree that God is not flesh but the way your reading the Johannine saying of “coming down/out of heaven” in light of those verses does imply that. Therefore, there must be some other explanation to the saying and what Jesus is talking about in John 6.38. In other words, its “the flesh” that preexists. This does not fit your own trini theology.
It would help if you could quote to us what your referring to. All I see on pg. 137 is Brown arguing for the distinctions between the 2 words:
Again, maybe I missed it but can you show me where he agrees with you that the MT vowel pointings should be discarded? Or where exactly he says adoni can refer to YHWH/Adonai?
You missed the other “Persons” who are called God:
1. Moses, Ex 4.16; 7.1
2. The judges of Israel, Ps 82.1,6 [cp. John 10.34]
3. The Davidic king, Ps 45.6.
So exactly how many Persons make up your “one God”?
dr Al Garza,
thank you for your answer to my last question and post #83 to Xavier.
2 peter 1:(KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
you are implying the lord Jesus is GOD and Melchizedek is GOD and Abram and king David are the great grandfathers of GOD and the comforter is GOD and the Spirit of truth is GOD and GOD is the king and priest of GOD and Moses is GOD and the judges of israel are each GOD ans king David is GOD.
exodus 3:(kjv)
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
1 corinthians 14:(kjv)
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
john 4:(kjv)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
levitcus 19:(kjv)
2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
GOD is Holy and GOD is a Spirit…GOD is HOLY SPIRIT…GOD is one!
next question: so then who is Mary, the daughter of Joseph and cousin to John the baptist?
Xavier
1. “Its your interpretation I am questioning here. I agree that God is not flesh but the way your reading the Johannine saying of “coming down/out of heaven†in light of those verses does imply that. Therefore, there must be some other explanation to the saying and what Jesus is talking about in John 6.38. In other words, its “the flesh†that preexists. This does not fit your own trini theology.”
My interpretation is that Jesus was affirming John 1:1-18. The Word was with God, was God and became flesh. Jesus was simply saying that he existed in heaven and came down from heaven. The Jews understood this clearly. Blasphemy was the charge against Jesus. I am not saying that he existed in the flesh but was God as spirit.
2. “It would help if you could quote to us what you’re referring to. All I see on pg. 137 is Brown arguing for the distinctions between the 2 words”
Brown says that without the vowel points in Psalm 110 that Adonai is spelled the same as Adoni. The Hebrew is ADNY and both are spelled the same without distinction and without vowel points.
“As every student of Hebrew knows, biblical Hebrew was written with consonants and “vowel letters” only; the vowel signs were added hundreds of years later. Yet both ‘adonai’ (used only for Yahweh) and ‘adoni (used for men and angels, as we just noted) are spelled identically in Hebrew, consisting of the four consonants ‘-d-n-y. How the can Rabbi Singer make such a dogmatic statement about the differences between these two forms in the Bible?” (Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol.3 page 137)
3. “You missed the other “Persons†who are called God:
1. Moses, Ex 4.16; 7.1
2. The judges of Israel, Ps 82.1,6 [cp. John 10.34]
3. The Davidic king, Ps 45.6.
So exactly how many Persons make up your “one Godâ€?”
Nobody denies that men were referred to as “Elohim” (judges) but never is a man called “the God” as Jesus was in Hebrews 1:8 by God himself. Jesus is identified as God not as a Judge. The NT verses are numerous on the texts that affirm Jesus as Lord and God. The Jewish leader understood this and continually wanted to kill him for blasphemy and not for simply claiming to be a prophet/man.
Thanks again for the questions.
Timothy
I never said God was Melchizedek. Please read my post again.
Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God yet there is one God. That is all I am saying.
Also the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is quoted using personal pronouns like “I” in Acts 13 and commands with authority. Matthew 28:19 according to Granville Sharps rule of grammar says each one is distinct from the other using the article which precedes the noun for each name. They are distinct and each is a person yet they are under one name. “Baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of THE Father and of THE Son and of THE Holy Spirit” The article before each noun demands in the Greek grammar that each is distinct from each other yet they share the same single name.
2. “next question: so then who is Mary, the daughter of Joseph and cousin to John the baptist?”
Can you please explain what you mean with this question? Are you referring to Mary the Mother of Jesus?
Thanks Timothy for your questions and comments.
Dr Garza
Then how else would you explain the teaching in John 6 where Jesus says that he came down IN THE FLESH from heaven?
Of course, we know that. But he is not dispensing with the MT vowel pointing as you are doing. So where exactly is he agreeing with you that the 2nd “lord” is Adonai and not adoni? Brown even makes the point that the 2 words are furthered distinguished via the SPOKEN form!
Heb 1.8 is citing Ps 45.6 which even most Evangelical trinis admit was addressed to the Davidic king:
Dr. I do not have a problem saying that Jesus is God or “the God” or even “God incarnate” in the biblical sense! But not the Orthodox sense. You are making a fatal mistake here of taking the text to literally and this is clouding the fact that when you interpret John 6.38 the way you do, it even goes against your own Orthodox understanding. I don’t even have a problem saying that God is the Father but in a bibglical sense, which would be a representational one, but not in an un-Orthodox sense like the Oneness do.
CORRECTION: You are making a fatal mistake here of taking the text too literally…
CORRECTION: I don’t even have a problem saying that Jesus is the Father but in a biblical sense, which would be a representational one, but not an un-Orthodox [ontological] one like the Oneness people do.
Dr. Al Garza:
No, first off, you argued from GRAMMATICAL GROUNDS. On grammatical grounds you have no case, since the expression in itself does not prove deity on the part of the one bearing the name. The identical expression is used, not only of the righteous Branch, but also of Jerusalem. In 33:16, Jerusalem would also be called “Yahweh our righteousness†because of the righteous branch. The presence of “shmo†in Jer. 23 is of no consequence otherwise and it is my contention that you are special pleading. The NET Bible (for one) also disagrees with you. Jerusalem will still be proclaimed AS Yahweh our Righteousness.
But, to follow your argument, you need the expression, “called by the name†and you need the presence of the Name of God. Let’s see if your logic and hermeneutics add up:
Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
2Sa 12:25 And he sent by the hand of Nathan the prophet; and he called his name Jedidiah, because of the LORD.
2Ki 23:34 And Pharaohnechoh made Eliakim the son of Josiah king in the room of Josiah his father, and turned his name to Jehoiakim, and took Jehoahaz away: and he came to Egypt, and died there.
2Ki 24:17 And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father’s brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
All of the occurrences above have the expression, “his name†followed by a theophoric name. None of these would render the bearers of the names deity. Now, the Trinitarian might say, Yes, but we need the WHOLE name of God in order to declare the brearer of the Name God. The first issue with this reply is that it’s an ad hoc argument. There is nothing in the Bible or the ancient writings that declares the bearer of the full name of God Yahweh Himself merely on the basis that the theophoric name contains the full name of God. In fact, we have in the Enoch writings Metatron and Yahoel being called “the little Yahweh.†Here is the precise identification Trinitarians need, but also the very occurrence they despise, since Yahoel and Metatron are both sh’lichim or representatives of Yahweh, acting in Yahweh’s stead. This is Hebraic functional identity, something completely different from the later Hellenistic/Latin ontological identity, precisely since functionality precludes ontology. This is the cognitive universe ancient Jews found themselves in – something the Hellenistic/Latin hybridisers detested, hence their resort to alien concepts about God and Christ. Thousands of Messianic Jews are deceived by this hybrid religion and blinded by their own piety. Messianic Judaism is pagan to the core and only has a facade of Hebraic heritage.
To take this argument further, let’s see how inconsistent Trinitarians are. They would quickly point to theophoric names in which the full Name of God is itself absent and use that as proof of Jesus’ deity (whatever this means in Hebraic terms). These include:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
See, they insist on a full name in the case of Jer. 23:6, but settles with a partial or substitutive rendering of God’s name in the cases above. This is inconsistent and desperate hermeneutics at best.
But is this insistence on the full name of God valid anyway? Most certainly not! Not only are places called by the full name of God, such as Yahweh-Nissi and Yahweh-Jireh (and no one would even think of deifying a mountain or an altar), but the shortened forms of God’s Name were just as valid an expression of the Name and an identification of God as the full Tetragram:
Ps 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name YAH, and rejoice before him.
To the Psalmist, Jah was just as much a reference to God’s Name as the full Name itself. The doxological Halleluyah was a call to give praises to Yah and meant no less than just that: Praise Yahweh, you people! This makes the Trinitarian position look even bleaker, since these other forms of God’s name occur in theophoric names, such as Jehoshaphat, Jehonadab, Jehoiakim, etc. and deification of these human bearers of these names was never even considered. One moving goalpost after another, splitting one hair after another, just to glean SOME support of the Nicean/Chalcedonian heresy – the trinity is nothing more than just that!
Cutting and pasting? I wish I was so lucky – I typed every single word…
I am in full agreement with Anthony Buzzard. O Theos taken in isolation can refer to the Only True God, but also to old Satan (do I need to remind you of 2 Cor. 4:4?). You won’t argue that 2 Cor. 4:4 refers to God Almighty simply because you see “o theos,†will you??? What is more, this in itself is inconsequential, since the O Theos can be nominative or vocative, hence my references of theologians who agree with its vocative sense. Not only that, but even with the nominative, the understanding of O Theos would still be in line with what my sources say, putting that expression precisely within Second Temple Judaism and the concept of shaliach without defaulting to 4th and 5th century Christian hybrid creeds. So, you’ve got still no point anyway.
The Father is called Savior here:
1Ti 1:1 . Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, [which is] our hope;
[Here “God†is someone distinct from Jesus, so it can only refer to the Father]
1Tim 2:3-5 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
[Here “God†can only refer to the Father]
Jude 25 To the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
[“God†can only refer to the Father here.]
Lk 1:32, 47 “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David…†And Mary Said, “My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviourâ€.
[Since Jesus is the son of whom Mary calls Lord, the Most High, “God†can only refer to the Father.]
That’s not my argument anyway, so I don’t know why you’re bringing it up. I know very well that Jesus and Yahweh won’t be one person simply because Jesus is “in†the Father and the Father “in†Jesus [you should know by now know that I use “Yahweh†and “Father†synonymously…]. But from a grammatical argument alone a literalist reading of this text could come to all kinds of weird conclusions and would grammatically still be valid. Just imagine adding another dimension to the text:
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
But no-one is arguing this anyway and every linguist who is worth the paper his qualification is written on will agree that grammar and cognition should have a healthy interplay. Autism (and Trinitarianism) are instances where grammar is utilised at the expense of cognitive reality.
First off, this is not my interpretation only but also that of some of the great theologians in the last and present century.
Secondly, Thomas’ proclamation was after he saw the risen Jesus. Once again vocative, Thomas said to Jesus “My Lord and my God.†This begs the question, “In what way was Jesus Thomas’ Lord and his God?†(The very question one would ask when told, “be Jesus to your flock, Pastor.†Need I say how autistic people would understand this???)We have no choice BUT to interpret his words. YOUR INTERPRETATION is that Jesus shared God’s ousios or that Jesus was a person of God. THAT IS AN INTERPRETATION IN ITSELF. My interpretation is the one given by my fellow Monotheists and scholars above. The question is, “which interpretation is the valid one?†And there the arguments and the proofs point to the First Century Monotheistic model the ancient Jews and Christians shared in. It is also confirmed by the context, since Jesus explains it himself, as well as John’s own interpretive scheme, namely that Jesus “explained†God (1:18) and that seeing Jesus meant seeing God (14:9). Pure shaluach or agency language – something 4th and 5th century trinitarianism rejects in favour of Hellenistic philosophical concepts of ontology.
Thomas’ exclamation is a dramatic conclusion, namely, that Jesus indeed explained God:
You said:
I could ask you the same questions regarding the scholars I cite. I could even tell you, 71.4% of the world are non-Christian. Are they all wrong? This is such a weak injunction. We can say for a fact that your Trinitarian scholars whose interpretive apparatus many times give them away as doctrinally biased, truly have a doctrine to defend – something you cannot say of any of the scholars I cited or will still cite. Regarding the Reformers, do you agree with every single thing the Reformers said? Luther and even Calvin were very careful on some points regarding the Trinity. Much, much more careful than some of you Trinitarians are… Greek and Latin Church Fathers? Many were Dynamic and Modalist Monarchians! Will you settle for that? I could return this question to you: Were they wrong? If so, then I agree with you. If not, then you’ll have to adopt their theology. If you’re not prepared to do that, then don’t expect of me to do it…
You write to timothy:
And where is the conspiracy now??? There were no vowel points in the pre-Christian Hebrew texts, remember? Is the MT’s vowel pointing of ADNY in vs. 5 as Adonai good enough NOW??? You are very inconsistent and disingenuous with your interpretations, Mr. Al Garza. Your theories don’t add up.
This is the very verse in Ps. 110 of the MT refuting your argument fully. For, if the Masoretes had a conspiracy and wanted to humanise the Messiah instead of retaining his divinity, then they slipped up miserably with this verse! This is unthinkable. In fact, this verse vindicates their credulity, PRECISELY BECAUSE the subsequent anthropomorphisms pose such a challenge to their theology. You have refuted yourself here.
In the meantime, my points stand, since you could not engage my points intelligibly or persuasively. I am more than willing to engage you on whatever substantial rebuttal you can give on my points.
Thanks,
Jaco van Zyl
P.S. My references to autism are not meant to insult. They are merely given to demonstrate how absurdly language can be interpreted on grammatical grounds alone. Trinitarianism does the same in many instances.
Xavier
“Dr. I do not have a problem saying that Jesus is God or “the God†or even “God incarnate†in the biblical sense! But not the Orthodox sense. You are making a fatal mistake here of taking the text to literally and this is clouding the fact that when you interpret John 6.38 the way you do, it even goes against your own Orthodox understanding. I don’t even have a problem saying that God is the Father but in a bibglical sense, which would be a representational one, but not in an un-Orthodox sense like the Oneness do.”
I am not a Oneness but a Trinitarian. Nowhere does it say Jesus came down in the flesh but the Bible does say Jesus existed in the very form of God. What form is that if it is not Spirit? If you do not have a problem saying Jesus is God or the God then we are in agreement.
Jaco
1. “No, first off, you argued from GRAMMATICAL GROUNDS. On grammatical grounds you have no case, since the expression in itself does not prove deity on the part of the one bearing the name. The identical expression is used, not only of the righteous Branch, but also of Jerusalem. In 33:16, Jerusalem would also be called “Yahweh our righteousness†because of the righteous branch. The presence of “shmo†in Jer. 23 is of no consequence otherwise and it is my contention that you are special pleading. The NET Bible (for one) also disagrees with you. Jerusalem will still be proclaimed AS Yahweh our Righteousness.”
I don’t know what Hebrew grammar books you are looking at but it bears much consequence to the text. Jer.23 identifies the Hebrew “his name” with suffix “sh’mo” back to YHWH while the Hebrew “Yiqro” goes back to “our righteousness” The context is clear on the Messiah being called YHWH and proclaimed Our Righteousness. Jer.33 has Israel proclaiming “yiqro” YHWH as her righteousness. Please check the grammar if you can with a Hebrew scholar. This was believed by ancient Rabbi’s who believed the Messiah would be called YHWH.
2. “First off, this is not my interpretation only but also that of some of the great theologians in the last and present century.
Secondly, Thomas’ proclamation was after he saw the risen Jesus. Once again vocative, Thomas said to Jesus “My Lord and my God.†This begs the question, “In what way was Jesus Thomas’ Lord and his God?†(The very question one would ask when told, “be Jesus to your flock, Pastor.†Need I say how autistic people would understand this???)We have no choice BUT to interpret his words. YOUR INTERPRETATION is that Jesus shared God’s ousios or that Jesus was a person of God. THAT IS AN INTERPRETATION IN ITSELF. My interpretation is the one given by my fellow Monotheists and scholars above. The question is, “which interpretation is the valid one?†And there the arguments and the proofs point to the First Century Monotheistic model the ancient Jews and Christians shared in. It is also confirmed by the context, since Jesus explains it himself, as well as John’s own interpretive scheme, namely that Jesus “explained†God (1:18) and that seeing Jesus meant seeing God (14:9). Pure shaluach or agency language – something 4th and 5th century trinitarianism rejects in favour of Hellenistic philosophical concepts of ontology.
Thomas’ exclamation is a dramatic conclusion, namely, that Jesus indeed explained God:”
“The Lord of Me and The God of Me” (Ho kuriov mou kai o teov mou).
Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koine. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.
The personal possessive pronouns and the direct address of Thomas to Jesus is not what was seen inside of Jesus which is never mentioned in the text but what Thomas believe who Jesus was.
3. “I could ask you the same questions regarding the scholars I cite. I could even tell you, 71.4% of the world are non-Christian. Are they all wrong? This is such a weak injunction. We can say for a fact that your Trinitarian scholars whose interpretive apparatus many times give them away as doctrinally biased, truly have a doctrine to defend – something you cannot say of any of the scholars I cited or will still cite. Regarding the Reformers, do you agree with every single thing the Reformers said? Luther and even Calvin were very careful on some points regarding the Trinity. Much, much more careful than some of you Trinitarians are… Greek and Latin Church Fathers? Many were Dynamic and Modalist Monarchians! Will you settle for that? I could return this question to you: Were they wrong? If so, then I agree with you. If not, then you’ll have to adopt their theology. If you’re not prepared to do that, then don’t expect of me to do it…”
Where do you get your stats? About 90% of the population claims to be Christian. That doesn’t make them Christian but the pole was taken. Also where do you get you Church history from? The early Church after the apostles were still proclaiming Jesus as God all the way to the reformers and beyond. They were Trinitarians.
4. “And where is the conspiracy now??? There were no vowel points in the pre-Christian Hebrew texts, remember? Is the MT’s vowel pointing of ADNY in vs. 5 as Adonai good enough NOW??? You are very inconsistent and disingenuous with your interpretations, Mr. Al Garza. Your theories don’t add up.”
You just made my point with verse 5, thank you. The inconsistency in the text of putting Adoni in verse 1 and then putting Adonai in verse 5 which connects back to verse 1 makes my point. There was no distinction in the DSS concerning “ADNY” and it was used of God, angels and men. ADON is the root word that need to be addressed.
5. “In the meantime, my points stand, since you could not engage my points intelligibly or persuasively. I am more than willing to engage you on whatever substantial rebuttal you can give on my points.”
Jaco, like I said before, new scholarship is not correct scholarship. The historical position of the Church for the last 2 thousand years have been the Trinity and the deity of the Messiah with complete understanding of the texts that have now just come under attack within the last 150 years or so. Your joining of the re-interpretation and re-creation of terms is nothing new to the Church. The Greek and Latin churches plus all the Reformers on the nature of God are in complete harmony. Down to even the great scholars of Robertson, Metzger, Mantey, Bruce, Wallace, Young, Schaff, Archer, J.N.D Kelly, Latourette etc… I have been a teacher for over 20 years and have seen and heard it all before. Your arguments have been refuted for centuries. Your points might sound intelligent to you but they are nothing new to us.
Thanks again for this discussion.
Dr Garza
If you take John 6.38 in its context that is exactly the meaning you’re giving it.
I don’t think so since you express those terms in a much more literal sense than we do. Jesus is God only in a representational sense. You cannot say Jesus is YHWH and the Father is YHWH since that would make 1 YHWH too many. I believe only the Father is YHWH as per the Jewish-Christian creed of the Shema [Deu 6.4; Mar 12.29].
Jaco,
Although this is a generalization, it does ring true. But, there are two sides of “Messianic Judaism” for many years now. The side being taken over by Christian pagan proponents looking to add a bit of Hebraic roots to their repertoire. And the Unitarian pro-Torah side that embraces Hebraic roots.
BTW, I’m done writing my paper and plan to post it late tonight or tomorrow. Since I focus on the ADNY vocalization brought up by Dr. Brown in Judges, I would like to add a link to your paper on Psalm 110:1 – Trinitarian Arguments Challenged. Would that be ok? Also, was wondering if you were ever able to revise the paragraph about Psalm 110 being found in the DSS?
I really love your paper, it was well done, and it’s a great conclusion to what I have written as it follows the along the same debate. 🙂
Xavier
1. “If you take John 6.38 in its context that is exactly the meaning you’re giving it.”
Xavier, I believe in looking at the Bible as a whole and not just from the narrative of John. Paul, being a Jew and Pharisee, understood clearly that Jesus existed in the very form of God which you still haven’t comment on. That form is spirit according to John. We know he wasn’t talking about his flesh and never claimed he did.
Thanks,
Dr.Garza
Jaco
Here are some early quotes from the believers just after the apostles.
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
“O Lord God almighty… I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever” (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever” (n. 7; PG 5.988).
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.’ Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
“The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: …one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,’ and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all…'” (Against Heresies X.l)
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation… [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Dr Garza
So when John writes that Jesus “came down/out of heaven” it is not talking about his preexistence? If it is, how do you explain that teaching in John 6?
And do you concede that Dr Brown does not agree with you concerning Ps 110.1?
Xavier
I already quoted Dr. Brown on the subject. Did you not read the quote from his book. I was making a point on the usage of the vowels. That is all. I don’t see any other problem with what I said.
Jesus answers the confusion you are making in verse 63:
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”
Again, compare the rest of scripture for the answers.
Thanks
Joseph,
Thanks for your kind words. I did revise my section on the DSS but the un-revised paper is still accessible on 21stcr.org. You are welcome to reference it still, maybe with a note on where the inaccuracy lies. I am refining it, though with footnotes and all, and it will soon be published in the Journal for the Radical Reformation.
Thanks and blessings,
Jaco
BTW, be sure to send me a copy of your paper: talkingdonkey1981@gmail.com.
Jaco
I would love to read your paper and see where you are coming from if you don’t mind?
DrAlGarza@aol.com
Thanks
I just posted a comment that contains a link. Can someone with admin abilities please approve?
Dr Garza
Yes, I read his book on this matter as I have quoted time and time again. And in post #82 you wrote the following:
You are jumping to conclusions here since adoni is NEVER applied to YHWH. Just because angels are called adoni and they represent YHWH does not mean the title is used for YHWH.
And then you wrote that Brown does not agree with Singer on the matter of the MT and its vocalization in regards to the word adoni. Yet, Brown says on pg. 135…
And John 6.63 still does not explain your interpretation of Jesus’ teaching about “coming down/out of heaven” in the flesh in John 6.38.
Joseph,
I don’t see any pending comments from you with a link. Your last one was #102 above and there are no others from you besides the previous one before that (#95).
I just sent you an email asking for a copy of your paper. If you’ll respond I’d be happy to post it here on KR.
Thanks!
Hmm. Seems that the blog may have a spam plugin that automatically deletes certain posts with links. No prob, I sent the article to your email so you can post here on KR. Thanks.
Xavier
1. “You are jumping to conclusions here since adoni is NEVER applied to YHWH. Just because angels are called adoni and they represent YHWH does not mean the title is used for YHWH.”
My point is not just looking at the MT which is a later Hebrew but looking at the ancient Hebrew of the DSS and before. Adoni is an interpretation of the MT and does not reflect the ancient Hebrew. The ancient Hebrew is simply ADNY using the suffix “Yod” for “my” and the root word is simply ADN (Adon) which is used of God, angels and men. Jumping to conclusions is my point for you when you only interpret from the MT and not the ancient Hebrew script which goes back to the time of Jesus and beyond.
2. “And John 6.63 still does not explain your interpretation of Jesus’ teaching about “coming down/out of heaven†in the flesh in John 6.38.”
I thought I answered this question with Jesus saying that he was speaking of the spiritual not the flesh. he sums it all up at verse 63.
Jesus answers the confusion you are making in verse 63:
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.â€
Dr Al Garza,
This is a incorrect generalization that has been misrepresented to you by Dr. Brown and Dr. White. Sure the DSS are several hundred years before the MT. But how do you deal with the Targums that are pre 2nd century? Are you aware that the Targums as well as other MSS have their own specific way to say adoni and adonai just as the MT has laid out? If you say that the MT does not reflect the ancient Hebrew, then you are also saying that most other MSS before the MT also do not reflect the ancient Hebrew.
Ron should be publishing my paper to this blog soon which delves into the evidence of MSS that support the MT vocalizations.
And to put it into perspective, it’s not like there was the DSS and then the MT. We have many ancient MSS in between to fill the time gap from the two. I suggest reading my article when it’s published. I’ll post back here the link when it’s up.
Dr Garza
Who relies on the unpointed Hebrew? And why do you keep dispensing with the Septuagint where the 2 Lords are carefully distinguished from one another? And what about the spoken form? Do you really believe that Jesus and the Apostles everytime they quoted the verses said, “Adonai said to my Adonai”? If they did where is the outcry from the people hearing this? I mean, ‘YHWH said to my YHWH’? Really?!!
Then he is not saying that he literally came down/out of heaven?
Joseph
I understand your point. My conclusions are not based on Brown or White. I study the Paleo-Hebrew first along with the DSS. The MT is not my authority. Paleo-Hebrew is the Hebrew of the prophets.
I look forward to reading your paper.
Xavier
1. Who relies on the unpointed Hebrew? And why do you keep dispensing with the Septuagint where the 2 Lords are carefully distinguished from one another? And what about the spoken form? Do you really believe that Jesus and the Apostles everytime they quoted the verses said, “Adonai said to my Adonai� If they did where is the outcry from the people hearing this? I mean, ‘YHWH said to my YHWH’? Really?!!
Paleo-Hebrew and the DSS are pointless in vowels. This was the language of the prophets up to the time of Jesus.
I never said “YHWH said to my YHWH” That is a strawman argument. I said, when you look at ancient Hebrew like the Paleo-Hebrew, DSS and the MT you cannot make a distinction between them in spelling without the vowel points. Also in the MT in verse 5 of Psalm 110 you have Adonai at the right hand which falls back to verse 1. Something is wrong there.
Also can you answer me this question? Who is the Rock in 1Cor.10?
Is it Christ from the OT as it says or what?
Dr. Al Garza,
Reposting with corrected blockquotes:
——————————————————–
Dr. Al Garza,
To be clear, how to you interpret Psalm 110:1? “Adonai says to my Adonai”?
Sarah,
see post # 87
Sarah
I look at Psalm 110:1-5 of course as Messianic but I also don’t jump to the conclusion that verse 1 is either Adoni or Adonai as well. When looking at Paleo-Hebrew and the DSS you don’t see how it was suppose to be pronounced. ADNY can be either Adoni or Adonai without the vowel points. Now when you look at how ADN is used, because it is the root word, you can see that ADN is used for God, men and angels. So in all fairness you can say that Psalm 110:1 can read:
“YHWH says to my Adoni or Adonai”
The prefix and the suffix does not change or alter the meaning of the root word Adon, “ADN”
Also in verse 5 the MT it says Adonai is at the right hand which reflects back to verse 1.
Dr Garza
Your comments are obvious to say the least. We all know this. I was asking about modern-day biblical scholars. Who among them relies on the unpointed Hebrew to do their exegesis? Who even learns unpointed Hebrew?
Again, your implying only what you seem unwilling to say. And that is your believe that v.1 actually reads: “Adonai said to my Adonai”, i.e., “YHWH said to my YHWH”. Why are you unable to admit what your proposing here?
As for your last point, there are parallels/precedence for YHWH/Adonai being at the right hand of a human being: Ps 16.8; 109.31; 121.5. In neither case are we dealing with “God at the right hand of my God” since these other examples suggest otherwise.
Anyone
Can anyone tell me how 1Corinthians 10:1-5 speaks of the OT Israelites who drank from the spiritual rock which was YHWH in Exod.17:1-5, but Paul says it was Christ, how is this possible if Christ did not pre-exist and is only a man?
Read Exod.17:1-5 and compare with 1Cor.10:1-5.
Xavier
1. Your comments are obvious to say the least. We all know this. I was asking about modern-day biblical scholars. Who among them relies on the unpointed Hebrew to do their exegesis? Who even learns unpointed Hebrew?
I don’t know how you learned Hebrew but ancient Hebrew should be the first thing you learn especially the pictograph script. The ancient Hebrew is not the same as Modern Hebrew which you already know. In fact modern Hebrew uses the Aramaic square script for their alphabet. Its not even real the Hebrew script. The Aramaic script was adopted after the Babylonian captivity. I look for truth not modern scholarship which I am.
2. As for your last point, there are parallels/precedence for YHWH/Adonai being at the right hand of a human being: Ps 16.8; 109.31; 121.5. In neither case are we dealing with “God at the right hand of my God†since these other examples suggest otherwise.
That is your interpretaion but the context of the whole of Psalm 110 is Messiah being at the right hand not YHWH. So now you are assuming your interpretaion rather then letting the context interpret for you.
Dr. Garza,
Dunn argues that 1 Co 10:4 is allegory, and that makes much more sense to me.
http://yahislove.blogspot.com/2011/06/james-dunn-on-1-corinthians-104.html
Dr Garza
Again, your stating the obvious to the point of sounding condescending everytime you rehash the same information. We all know this! But my questions were WHO relies on the unpointed Hebrew to do their exegesis? And WHO even learns the unpointed Hebrew when learning that language? Its like learning English without the vowels.
I am only “assuming” what the textual evidence says and they harmonize perfectly when it comes to YHWH/Adonai being described at the right hand of a human being. Like the Davidic king/Psalmist in those other examples I gave you. But again, you have dodged my question…if that is your “interpreation” of Ps 110.1,5 why are you unable to admit what your proposing here? That the reading should actually be “Adonai said to my Adonaiâ€, i.e., “YHWH said to my YHWHâ€.
And please Doctor stop “teaching” us what we already know about the Hebrew text and answer my questions.
Dr. Al Garza,
So are you saying Moses literally struck the pre-existent Jesus?
Ex 17:6: “I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink.” So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.”
I am much more inclined to believe James Dunn’s interpretation that Tim aka Antioch shared in post #118.
Sarah
Here’s another good alternate interpretation to 1Cor 10.4:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-corinthians-10-4b
Dr Al Garza,
Isn’t White’s entire argument based upon the ancient DSS Hebrew? So what makes your position any different? Please explain.
I don’t think you do understand my point for a couple reasons…
First, I don’t see how the Paleo-Hebrew adds anything to your argument as there are DSS manuscripts that have both ADNY and the Paleo-Hebrew Tetragrammaton written within the same MSS together.
Second, you keep saying that the adoni vocalization is merely a interpretation of the MT. That the ancient Hebrew didn’t have vowel markings, therefore, the Masoretes got it wrong in Psalm 110:1. I’m curious then, how you answer to the Targums, LXX, VetLat, ect in their agreement with the MT in regards to the differences of adonai and adoni? You seem to continue to ignore that many various manuscripts acknowledge the difference between adoni and adonai before the vowel markings in the MT were even created. Are you seeing where your argument is flawed here? In other words, you are only willing to accept a vowel-less Hebrew MS because it allows you to interpret as you please. If you don’t see it this way, others do.
You can read my paper here, I’d love to get your response… http://lhim.org/blog/2012/02/02/judges-6-and-the-hebrew-masoretic-vocalization-of-adny-trinitarian-arguments-challenged/
Tim
1. Dr. Garza,
Dunn argues that 1 Co 10:4 is allegory, and that makes much more sense to me.
Of course your going to agree with Dunn, he agree with your views. That does not answer the question in the passage. The link you gave states only his opinion on the text. He even quotes the correct usage of the Greek word for “follow” but then turns around and rejects it because it doesn’t fit his theology. Read below:
A. “Although it is true that akolutheo can be translated as “accompany,†it should not be translated that way here, but would be better translated as “followed.†The vast majority of translations agree. As we have said, there is no verse in the Old Testament that records Jesus Christ traveling with the Israelites, so the translation “accompanied†does not fit with the rest of Scripture.”
Paul says without question that it was Christ ( past tense) who followed the Israelites.
Joseph
I am not saying they got it wrong but only that they are giving their commentary on the passage by having it say Adoni.
Also, Anthony Buzzard sent me an email regarding the LXX and the understanding of the early church on this passage. I would like you to read it because it states the opposite of what your saying in regard to the historical position. Anthony was trying to show the needed correction in one of the OT commentaries. I can send you the email if you like.
Joseph
Psalm 110:1
Part of the email states that it was because of the LXX that the misreading happened and the misreading came from Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho 56 and also by Irenaues. Then Jerome perpetuated it even more in the Vulgate.
In a nutshell, it is blamed on the understanding and reading of the LXX that caused the problem. The reading of the LXX in uncials and replacing the Shem Hameforash/Tetragrammaton with KYRIOS in all the places caused major problems. This is why the early church believed the Adonai translation. They first believed in the deity of the Messiah and read back to the OT to find the places were it could be found from the LXX and not the Hebrew text.
Dr Al Garza,
So any MSS that also supports a reading that gives a name other than God for the second Lord, or supports the MT in agreeing with a ‘adoni’ rendering, would also be considered just commentary in your eyes? I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say here?
Again, I think you are confused and been led down the ignorant path to thinking that somehow the vowel-less Hebrew word ADNY is ambiguous. This is one of the points that Dr. Brown tried to argue by citing MSS discrepancies in Judges 6:13-15 in which I was able to refute in my article.
I’m having a hard time following you with the information given. Where do Anthony and I exactly differ? Why would the early Church believe the second Lord in Psalm 110:1 to be considered ‘adonai’ if the LXX MSS they were referring back to read ‘kurious mou’ ‘adoni’?
Furthermore, the Targums, which were before the Triune-God revolution, support a ‘non-God’ second Lord reading, independent of the LXX. No conspiracy there…
Psalm 110
– Composed by David, a psalm. The Lord said in his decree to make me lord of all Israel, but he said to me, “Wait still for Saul of the tribe of Benjamin to die, for one reign must not encroach on another;[5] and afterwards I will make your enemies a prop for your feet.â€
– Another Targum: The Lord spoke by his decree to give me the dominion in exchange for sitting in study of Torah. “Wait at my right hand until I make your enemies a prop for your feet.â€
– Another Targum: The Lord said in his decree to appoint me ruler over Israel, but the Lord said to me, “Wait for Saul of the tribe of Benjamin to pass away from the world; and afterwards you will inherit the kingship, and I will make your enemies a prop for your feet.â€
The Aramaic word being used for the second Lord here is ‘rebon’ which is the equivalent to the Hebrew ‘adon.’ Unlike the DSS Hebrew, the Aramaic makes a alphabetical distiction between YY (adonai) and Reboni (adoni). Therefore, we know that in the ancient Hebrew, the vocalizations ‘adoni’ and ‘adonai’ weren’t simply ambiguous. I explain more of this in my article I gave you the link to in my comment #122 above.
Dr. Al Garza,
Paul also says in Hebrews 7:9-10 that it is possible for an unborn son to do something by means of his father’s actions.
Hbr 7:9-10 NIV – “One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.”
It seems to me you are applying Greek philosophical ideas to Paul’s writings, rather than Paul’s own Hebraic outlook.
Xavier, thanks for the link. Good info on the pages you and Tim shared.
Dr Al Garza,
what is the paleo Hebrew verb
“to be” (was-is-will be) ?
and how should it be pronounced in English ?
Looks like the good doctor has had enough. 😛
Xavier, has he had enough? Oh, boy, just look at what I’m about to post 😀
Sorry, everybody, for the delay in my answer. Life is starting to pick up speed again, and my time needs to be well-managed.
Dr. Al Garza:
You are making waaaaaay too much of this grammar and it is obvious that this text is being dissected to the bone to desperately secure a Trinitarian reading of some kind. Here is the final part of the text in reverse order:
הזו – ומש ×¨×©× â€“ ו×רקי הוהי ×•× ×§×“×¦
Transliterated: v’zeh-sh’mo asher-yiq’roo, yhwh tzid’qenu
Gloss: [and this] – [name of him] [which] – [he shall call him] [yhwh] [righteousness of us]
NOTHING in the grammar necessitates what YOU and your fellow Niceans/Chalcedonians want the text to read, namely
v’zeh-sh’mo yhwh, asher-yiq’roo tzid’qenu. Translated: and this is his name, Yahweh, which shall be called “our righteousness.â€
The demonstrative and the pronoun suffixes are inherently ambiguous. Your pushing this to mean that the Messiah will be given the Name Yahweh and that he will be called our righteousness, instead of the Messiah being given the compound theophoric name, yhwh tzid’qenu is at best desperate and at worst deceptive. Obviously you’ll have the support of your fellow Trinitarian preservers, but only since these are doctrinally biased.
Then, from the LXX we find the following:
Ieremias 23:6 “In his days Jouda will be saved, and Israel will encamp in confidence. And this is the name by which he [the Lord] will call him: ‘Iosedek among the prophets’†– Translated by Albert Pietersma and Marc Saunders
Jeremias 23:6 (LXX): “In his days both Juda shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell securely: and this is his name, which the Lord shall call him, Josedec among the prophets.†– Translated by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton 1851
It is clear that the translators of the LXX in no way thought that the Messiah would receive the Name of Yahweh Himself. As with Ps. 110:1 where Yahweh speaks to someone else which in itself precludes the recipient of the oracle from being Yahweh Himself, where Yahweh calls this Branch, yhwh tzidqenu. The LXX is much more specific in its assignment of who says what and the doctrinally induced ambiguity on the Hebrew is finally resolved by the more dynamic Greek rendering. The Name the Messiah receives is treated as nothing more than other theophoric names and is rendered as a compound name, rather than a split elaboration (as you and others would want us to believe). This understanding is also my understanding and, unfortunately for your position, also the understanding the ancient Christians inherited.
Then, commentators such as the NET Bible Commentary draw a synonymous parallel between 23:6 and 33:16. You and others cannot afford this inevitable similarity, hence your special pleading around every corner to evade this obvious and certain parallel. Note what the commentaries have to say:
“The Davidic possibility is envisioned as a king who will practice righteousness as was required in 22:3 and rejected in 22:13-14…This king will embody righteousness, to which his very name will attest. It is perhaps intentional and ironic that the “real king†anticipated is called “Yahweh is our righteousnessâ€, while the last king of the line up to 587 is Zedekiah (Yahweh is righteous). The coming king will be genuine “righteous,†whereas the remembered King Zedekiah is not at all an embodiment of righteousness. That king bore the name; the coming king will embody the reality. Footnote 16: ‘It is worth noting that the promise articulated here is taken up in the “Common Lectionary C†in the use of Jer. 33:14-16 during Advent. Quite clearly, the Church has handled the text with reference to Jesus.’†–Walter Brueggemann, A commentary on Jeremiah: exile and homecoming, p. 207
“The interesting fact about this prophecy is that Jeremiah used a play on words to express his thought. Zedekiah’s name meant “Yahweh is my righteousness.†The One whom Jeremiah predicted would come was Yahweh’s true Righteousness. Human kings had failed. The One divinely sent would not fail.†– Holman Old Testament Commentary – Jeremiah, Lamentations, pp. 215
“33:15-16 These verses are a prose parallel to the poetic messianic statement of 23:5-6 but with a slight difference in emphasis. The verses promise the restoration of the Davidic dynasty. ‘A righteous Branch’ of David’s family would do what is just and right, as contrasted with the many wicked kings who occupied the throne since David’s death. Under the leadership of this new ruler, Judah would be saved and the people would live in safety. The city would be given a new name: ‘The Lord our righteousness.’ In 23:6 the name was promised to the coming ruler, but here the name is given to the city. The meaning of the new name is that Jerusalem would finally become what God intended for it to be all along – a city noted for its righteousness…†The New American Commentary on Jeremiah, Lamentations, p. 301
Clarke’s commentary quotes Dr. Bleyney who follows the LXX translation:
Commentary by Keil and Delizsch:
No Trinitarian interpretation is seen anywhere in commentaries such as A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on Jeremiah by William McKane, or Eerdmans Commentary on the Bible by James D.G. Dunn and John William Rogerson. As I have shown in my previous comment, bearing a theophoric name does not render the bearer thereof divine, much less identical to the One whose name is borne. The scholars above and others take Jeremiah 23:6 and 33:16 as parallels; the one name being given to the Messiah who would ensure Yahweh’s righteousness taking place (as opposed to Zedekiah’s failure) and the other to Jerusalem in which Yahweh’s righteousness would be seen. The significance of the name is identically used in both cases. Unless one has a doctrine to push, there is therefore no proof of divinity or identity with Yahweh in 23:6 whatsoever.
Finally, and this is from a logical point of view, and not ignoring what I have written you on this subject in a previous comment, the Trinitarian conclusion does not follow from necessity even if the name of God is associated with the bearer of this compound name. This is so, simply since the Trinitarian argument assumes a non-Hebraic, culturally, theologically and cognitively alien concept of ontological identity rather than functional identity (cp. Ex. 7:1, 23:21). You Trinitarians ignore this central error all of you commit. This very point alone should settle the issue without discussing doctrinal sophistry any further.
More to follow…
Dr. Al Garza, you said:
No, your slippery slope fallacy is introduced by your words, “Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God.†You assume that you understand perfectly what Thomas meant and that that understanding follows by default. To the Nicean/Chalcedonian, this is an admission of the Trinity. To a Modalist, this was an identification with the Father. To the ancient Jew, this was an exclamation for seeing the glory of God in Jesus. However you want to look at it, Dr. Al Garza, this text needs interpretation. Whether its Nicean/Chalcedonian, adoptionist, modalist, monotheistic, patripassionist, this text requires interpretation. Yours is not as much at face value as it is to the modalist or everyone else.
So Thomas’ words still beg the question, “When Thomas saw Jesus, he saw God. In what way was Jesus Thomas’ Lord and Thomas’ God?†And we’re back to square one where the interpretive apparatus of every expositor needs investigation.
Niceans/Chalcedonians would love to make this sound like an utter proof of their 4th century invention. This is most certainly not the case, as I have demonstrated by the historical milieu Thomas, Jesus and their fellow Jews found themselves in. This was also confirmed by Jesus’ own words in John 14:9 which Thomas also heard, as he was in their company. Niceans/Chalcedonians reject functional identity and settle for the Greek-philosophical category of ontological identity. This is erroneous scholarship and it survives simply and solely due to religious motivation. It’s been artificially kept alive through brutal oppression and persecution and in our age of freedom suppressed voices are finally heard showing convincingly why the machines which kept this doctrinal monstrosity alive can be switched off now.
You have not engaged me meaningfully on this text at all. You ignore the ancient cognitive universe of Jewish monotheists and you argue from silence, as if the absence of Jesus’ correction now suddenly confirms Niceanism/Chalcedonianism. Jesus was God’s glorious image and that is precisely how He and Thomas understood it to be, hence no correction required. Still no point and non-dogmatic scholars agree with me.
You said:
Only about 2 billion people of the world’s population confesse Christianity (if we don’t distinguish between Catholicism and Protestantism). Do your math, Mr. Al Garza, and you’ll arrive at a percentage of only 28.6%. So, my question is, since majority is your issue here (you assert that the MAJORITY of the ancient church believed trinitarianism, the MAJORITY of the reformers were Trinitarian, “were they all wrong?†you asked) then certainly you should not be Christian yourself, since the MAJORITY of the world’s population is non-Christian! Weak, weak argument: argumentum ad populum. You should do better than that, Mr. Al Garza.
The early Church would have been horrified at proclaiming Jesus as God Himself. Hellenistic categorical schemes and alien theosophies such as Gnosticism sabotaged the Early Church very soon after the apostles’ demise. NEVER did the apostles proclaim Jesus to be identical to Yahweh God. You have absolutely no proof of that. This idea of Jesus being God Himself was an alien infection only later injected into the Christian teaching. Historians such as Harnack, Rubenstein, Freeman and countless others all attest to this and by reason also to the horrendous error you and your fellow dogma defenders commit. More on this further down.
LOL! No, sir, sorry for you! This just shows how inconsistent you Trinitarians are in inventing excuses for damning evidence! You WANT the adoni in 110:1 to be adonai. You NEED the adoni to be adonai, else your weak and frail artificially quickened vegetable doctrine would die in an instant. So you resort to ad hominem attacks and invent a conspiracy. But, funny enough, there is no conspiracy only four verses later. Suddenly the writers of the MT were utterly oblivious of the monster they had to fight! My goodness, and you wonder why even Trinitarian academia laugh at people like you? No, there was no conspiracy. The distinction between the two lords were neatly drawn since pre-Christian times. Even the early LXXs containing the divine Name would have drawn the distinction and the First Century Christians would have read and heard this distinction from the Hebrew, the Greek, the paraphrases and the Synagogue. They would also have been aware of verse 5 where God is described in very anthropomorphic terms. This would be THE IDEAL TEXT to change from adonai to adoni, yet the so-called conspirators “risked their theology†and pointed it as a more difficult reading. Furthermore, it would only be fitting for Adonai to be at the Messiah’s and every other righteous person’s right hand! See here:
Ps 16:8 . I have set the Yahweh always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Ps 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with you: you have taken hold of my right hand.
Ps 109:31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.
Ps 121:5 The Yahweh is your keeper: Yahweh is your shade at your right hand.
You have absolutely no point here, and you can deny this all you want, ‘till the cows come home. Your conspiracy theory fails and you sit with a psalm threatening the survival of your doctrinal patient.
You continue:
Mr. Al Garza, no scholarship will be good enough for people like you. As with Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Muslims, Trinitarian zealots have a unique and circular approach to also their cherished theology. They are fond of quoting scholars. They celebrate their out-dated banner-bearers of custom-made post-biblical theology. But when scholars (Trinitarian and non-trinitarian) scholars are quoted to show where you prove to be desperate, you start to whistle a different tune. To people like you and others, old scholarship is not new enough and new scholarship is not old enough. There are few things as cruel as the destruction of a cherished myth in the face of mounting and damning evidence. Cognitive dissonance has you react the way you do – pure psychology really. What is more, I don’t know WHICH scholarship you’re referring to when you say, that the Church’s position for the past 2000 years have been Trinitarian and the deity of Christ. The very necessity of councils such as those of Nicea, Chalcedon, etc., and the subsequent violent enforcement of successive sets of doctrinal clauses at different stages of its foetal development embarrass your conjecture above to utter ridiculousness. Some of your scholars above have been among those who have confirmed the “criticism†of certain of your make-fit texts often used to prove your doctrine. FF Bruce, for one, has been a favourite even for us non-trinitarians in demonstrating how wrong most of you are. These Nicean/Chalcedonian banner-bearers above also have their share of critics, so you have no reason to feel warm and fuzzy about your post-biblical invention, really.
You say: “Your joining of the re-interpretation and re-creation of terms is nothing new to the Church.†Ahem, excuse me, but you blokes are the ones re-interpreting and re-creating terms. You NEED an anthropological distinction between “person†and “being.†WHERE ON EARTH DO YOU FIND THIS IN SCRIPTURE? And you dare call me re-interpreting and re-creating new terms? Where did you do your studying that you don’t even know the philosophical and religious hair-splitting over REINTERPRETED and RECREATED (or should I say newly-invented) categories of homoousios and homoiousios? You demonstrate an ignorance of the disputes surrounding Jesus’ “two natures†and the wrestling between proponents of this idea on the one hand and Monophysitists and Adoptionists on the other. The Antiochian fathers in particular had a more adoptionistic understanding of Jesus. Clear-cut, fully developed and highly sophisticated Nicean/Chalcedonian-like Trinitarianism since the time of the apostles??? In your dreams!
You say: “The Greek and Latin churches plus all the Reformers on the nature of God are in complete harmony.†We’ll see about that. Your absolutist approach to this issue is clearly again simply wishful thinking. I’ll demonstrate where even the “Greek and Latin churches,†as seen by their Fathers show fundamental differences with your later-developed doctrine. More on this later.
You said: “I have been a teacher for over 20 years and have seen and heard it all before. Your arguments have been refuted for centuries. Your points might sound intelligent to you but they are nothing new to us.†Need I remind you, Mr. Al Garza, that your theology has been refuted for centuries. The difference is that, since your Sun-worshipping hero, Constantine, abused his power to legalise Niceanism at the expense of all other rival theologies, any dissenters or opponents of your theology were brutally persecuted, tortured and murdered. There writings were destroyed in an attempt to protect the feeble, yet heavily guarded hybrid theology of the Trinity. This legacy you’ve inherited, Mr. Al Garza, is Watchtower-like censorship times ten…you’d make a pretty good Jehovah’s Witness, really – all the cultic elements are there. I challenge you or any of your Trinitarian compadres to bring your so-called “proofs†anytime. I’ll show them to be lacking seriously – firstly by your own Trinitarian scholars, then by mine, then by consistent Scriptural hermeneutics and then by formal logic. Slowly but surely this candy-coated Trinitarian idol is crumbling down, and many former Trinitarians join our ranks in pulling the plug on this artificially sustained hybrid religion.
More to follow…
Dr. Al Garza,
You’re getting waaaaaaay too excited about the “apostolic Fathers.†The first reason is, since apostatising influences have crept in very early in Church history. The first sign of apostasy was a RE-INTERPRETATION and RE-CREATION (you’ll regret ever stirring this point) of inherently Hebraic categories in Hellenistic terms. This is what Harnack has to say about it:
And, of course, you can also reject Harnack as yet another inconvenient critic of your doctrinal sacred cow.
But, to demonstrate how heterogeneous the early church truly was and how desperate your and other trinitarians’ hopes are in finding a homogeneous, fully developed and sophisticated Trinitarian doctrine of Christ “since the apostles,†inform yourself of the following:
Shepherd of Hermas (first or second century, read in churches along with holy scripture, Origen claimed this to the the Hermas in Ro. 16:14)
Papias (125 A.D.) was undoubtedly non-trinitarian:
The Christian philosopher Aristides writes ca. 125 A.D.:
Someone who was an Adoptionist was Paul of Samosata, who wrote,
Origen, in Dialogue with Trypho, makes clear that there were Christians who did not subscribe to Jesus’ pre-existence, even hi s divinity: Here, Chapters 48, 49:
Clement was firmly non-trinitarian:
Does this sound consistently and homogeneously Trinitarian since the apostles? Certainly not.
Pseudo-Clementine (dated between 180 and 220 A.D.) Recognitions 2:42, written by Jewish Christians who did not immerse themselves in Hellenistic ways of thinking: “Therefore the name God is applied in three ways: either because he to whom it is given is truly God, or because he is the servant of him who is truly; and for the honor of the sender, that his authority may be full, he that is sent is called by the name of him who send.â€
Let’s see how the Didache describes the relation between Father and son:
This sounds awfully Unitarian to me! But, since you Trinitarians like equivocating, not only where it comes to God the Father, but also where it comes to Tertullian’s use of “tri-unity,†there’s a surprise for you. See, especially since you stated with so much conviction that your highly developed and sophisticated Nicean/Chalcedonian doctrine can be clearly traced back to the apostles and that all early writers agree with every particle of it, allow me to show you how Tertullian would have fled for his life had he written the following AFTER your Nicean/Chalcedonian revelations from heaven:
In his letter Against Praxeas, he states:
Chap. IX. “Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son.”
Chap. VII. “And while I recognize the Son, I assert his distinction as second to the Father.”
Chap. III. vv. 1. “The majority of believers, are STARTLED at the Dispensation (of the Three in One)…They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods…While the Greeks actually REFUSE to understand the oikonomia, or Dispensation” (of the Three in One).
Not only was Tertullian’s doctrine an unpopular and unheard of doctrine, it also denies the co-equality your version of the Trinity insists on. So, Tertullian is not your guy, sorry…
Oh, yes before I conclude; while you like the 3rd century Rabbi Kahana in his expectation that the Messiah’s Name would be YHWH (again equivocating since the Messiah would simply bear a name as the angel in Ex. 23:21 did, without making him Yahweh himself), I’d prefer the understanding of R. Joseph Albo of Toledo of the 13th century who wrote:
The Scripture calleth the Names of Messiah also: YHWH Zidkenu, because He is the Mediator through Whom we shall get the righteousness of YHWH. –Sepher Ikkarim 28:54
Thanks for discussing,
Jaco van Zyl
Great responses, Jaco. You have a great way of structuring your arguments into cohesive order. I was hoping that perhaps Dr. White or Dr. Brown would show up to defend their position rather than Dr Al Garza doing the duty for them.
Joseph,
Thank you. Dr. White hardly ever responds. And when he does, it’s more like brushing over the issues at hand with more over-generalisations and equivocations so that no coherent engagement ever takes place. As for Dr. Brown, he is just as repetitive and when in a corner, simply refers one to his second volume on Jewish objections. Maybe they think they’re smart, but this kind of argumentation does not bring about conviction, especially when a dilemma of faith is experienced (and surely is among thousands and thousands of uncertain trinitarians). Better arguments always triumph and faith in fabulous beliefs is eventually lost among those who seriously want to worship God in truth and with their “whole mind.”
Thanks again,
Jaco
Joseph,
Hi there. I was investigating on how I can unearth the “original” interpretation of Psalm 110:1. Luckily, I stumbled upon this thread. I really would like to know your explanation about Psalm 110:1. I was wondering if you can allow me to have a soft copy of your research paper on Psalm 110:1. Your paper would really be helpful on my search for the truth. Thanks a lot!
Can someone here who denies Christ’s divinity please explain how they understand these verses:
Hebrews 1:1-2 :In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Hebrews 1: 10-12:
(of His Son)
He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.â€
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
My point (pardon the pun) about Adoni in Ps. 1101:1 goes like this. The MT shows no signs of corruption. Adoni in all of its 195 occurrences never means GOD. Thus in the Psalm we have YHVH speaks to adoni, my lord (not Lord). The word is not adonai, which would mean that YHVH speaks to GOD!
There is no evidence of corruption in the Hebrew Bible at this verse, but we have the check and balance of the LXX which renders ADONI as kurios mou. Kurios mou renders ADONI scores of times. The NT text is secure as kurios mou. Therefore the Messiah is not God, but my lord.
James White tried to throw us off track by pleading two exceptions: He pointed out that in 2 verses in Psalms ADONAI is rendered as kurios mou. He is right, but he did not tell you why the exceptions occurred. In both of the 2 verses in Pss. David is addressing a single person with a double title. He repeats his address to that ONE PERSON. But in every case where a human being (not God) is involved, or where two persons, of whom one is God, are involved, as in Ps. 110:1, kurios mou translates ADONI (just as we have it). This is the standard address to someone who is not GOD. Thus White has first to plead that the pointing in Ps 110:1 is corrupt (no evidence) and then assuming that it ought to read Adonai (which it does not) he tries to show in two exceptions that adonai can appear as kurios mou. His attempt obviously fails. The MT is adoni, and adoni (195 times) refers to non-Deity. The two exceptions in the Psalms (you will have fun looking them up!) are exceptions for the good reason that one addressee with a double title is involved. In Ps. 110:1 GOD speaks to another. Here kurios mou (found also in the quote in the inspired Greek NT) represents ADONI.
If anyone wants to work on the exact stats, please write to me at anthonybuzzard@mindspring.com This is matter of huge consequence in deciding who God is and who Jesus is.
Note too that White says that there is no pointing in the written texts. But he forgets the NT which gives us kurios mou (translating ADONI) and that Jerome in the Vulgate knows the word ADONAI! These texts were read aloud long before the points were added. Adoni is the great discovery ready to break with a spectacular splash on the public. Broadcast this far and wide. Ps. 110:1, the great key to truth.
Anthony,
Does the fact that your view of Ps 110 differs from that of Jame White cause the two of you to view Luke 6:46 any differently?
Mike Gantt,
Pardon me, for inserting this information.
Luke 6:46 is included in important doctrinal scripture (IMHO I do not agree that Jesus Christ is GOD). However a double vocative(even very strong in Martin Luthers bible) marks how important the words of Jesus are in the passages.
I remember something from kindergarten Sunday school about little pigs building houses on rock and sand foundations.
LHIM has a class about determining whether Jesus or YAHWEH are ment for the lord translations in the NT.
Here is a section from the class notes:
New Testament Usages of “LORD”/”Lord” – Greek Kurios
Verse English English Hebrew Estrangelo Spanish
Ref# KJV NASB NT Aramaic Peshitta NOTES
Lk 4:12 Lord LORD hwhy 0yrm YAHWEH
Lk 4:18 Lord LORD hwhy 0yrm YAHWEH
Lk 4:19 Lord LORD hwhy 0yrm YAHWEH
Lk 5:8 Lord Lord ynda yrm Señor
Lk 5:12 Lord Lord ynda yrm Señor
Lk 5:17 Lord Lord hwhy 0yrm Yahweh
Lk 6:5 Lord Lord Nwda hrm Señor
Lk 6:46 Lord Lord Nwda yrm Señor
Lk 6:46 Lord Lord Nwda yrm Señor
Lk 7:6 Lord Lord ynda yrm Señor
Lk 7:13 Lord Lord Nwda 9wsy Jesús
Lk 7:19 -.-.- Lord uwsy 9wsy Jesús
http://lhim.org/resources/classes.php?id=29
Timothy
As I read Psalm 110:1, it seems to me that the two different Lords, are one Lord.
Ray,
Here is Psalm 110:1 from Jesus quote in Matthew 22:44 from the
“Hwai’i Pidgin” New Testament version.
Matthew 22: (HWP)
44 ‘Da Boss,
He tell my Boss,
“Come ova hea, sit down”!
So it is clear that two different Boss are involved!
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&version=HWP
Timothy 8)
Together the two Lords of Psalm 110:1 are one as also in Psalm 45.
Timothy, my KJV seems to read a bit differently than your “HWP” version, enough so that I wonder if they are of differing spirits.
I say that Jesus is God. He is the Father. He is the holy Spirit, and I say these things by comparison. I don’t believe it to be necessarily wrong to do so.
I believe we should all strive to use the word of God for the purposes of the Word.
Yahweh is addressing the Messiah in Ps. 110:1. Adoni, my lord, has been mistranslated in most English versions (not all) as my Lord instead of correctly “my lord.” Adoni, my lord, is the classic title of honor for the king. Adoni is never (all 195 times) an address to Deity. Why all the fuss about such an obvious thing? Adoni is non-Deity and Adonai/YHVH is the one Deity. No one imagined, in the NT community, that Jesus was YHVH. That would make an unthinkable two YHVH’s.
Peter used this precious verse to prove that Jesus was elevated to the supreme position as “lord,” ie the “my lord” of the Psalm. In desperation Dr. White tried to invent a conspiracy to say that ADONI was incorrect as the Jews pointed the word. For this there is no evidence. “My lord is the inspired NT version, and “my lord” is for the Messiah, as Elizabeth knew weil when visitiing “the mother of my lord” (Luke 1:43). ADONI is never a title for God!
If you listen to the NT community of the first century, you will hear how simple and real all this is for them. But once the ugly fingers of philosophy intervened with the “church fathers” chaos has ensued. when non-biblical language was imposed on the precious documents resulting in the obvious “mess we are in.”
Ray,
There are bibles written in many different world languages so that all peoples may receive the WORD of GOD.
Native speakers of Hawai‘i Pidgin numbered around 600,000 in 2011, 100,000 to 200,000 with low proficiency in standard English. Nonnative speakers are estimated at between 300,000 and 400,000. They live in Hawaii, Alaska and the United States mainland. Alternate names are Pidgin, Hawai‘i Creole, and Hawai‘i Creole English.
The language enjoys vigorous use. It is the native speech of about half of those born or brought up in Hawaii, regardless of racial origin.
These all are American people and receive the same holy spirit when they believe in Pidgin or Hawai’i Creole English.
The same YAHWEH(Da Boss) giver and the same
spirit of truth/comforter/lord(Boss)!
You will see here that the verse in Luke 1:43 uses[Boss Mudda] for the same [the mother of my lord]….(from post # 146 above AB)
Luke 1:
43 But why dis good ting happen to me, dat you wen come by me, an you goin be my [Boss mudda]?!
The beauty of looking at this American English dialect is one sees that their meaning for lord is “Boss”. And Jesus Christ is to be obediently followed just as an employee *does just what the Boss says to do*.
In Matthew 22:44 YAHWEH is called *Da Boss* and my lord is my Boss. Two distinctly different beings.
Here is link to the Hawai’i Pidgin Bible, again:
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Hawaii-Pidgin-HWP/#books
BTW…Hawai’i Pidgin can be heard being spoken on television series:
*Dog the bounty hunter*
Timothy
Anthony,
From which commandments of Jesus are we exempted if we read Luke 6:46 as “Why do you call me ‘lord, lord’ and do not do the things that I say?” instead of “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord’ and do not do the things that I say?”
Timothy,
Try and pick more productive conversations. Don’t sweat the small stuff, don’t be bothered by every little barking dog. Some people are better left in there Harry Potter world…
Timothy, thank you for that information about another language I knew nothing about. When I read it, it sounded rather vulgar to my ears.
When men speak in my neighborhood such things as “Come ova hea, sit down.”, it may come across quite differently as it may in some other part of the world.
This is why I wondered about what spirit it was of. I didn’t know there was such a thing as a Hwai’i Pidgin New Testament. I was wondering if you were making it up.
Anthony,
It seems to me that Thomas for one made it clear at least once that I know of, that he compared Jesus to God and considered him to be equal with him in many respects. (John 20:28) Do you agree?
Anthony, Do you take the position that God spoke to one who did not yet exist in Psalm 110:1, and also that David proclaimed the same, confessing that he (David) himself served a Lord who at that time did not yet exist?
The argument on this blog between Trinitarians and Unitarians seems to be over the lip service we ought to give God. I can’t imagine God being very interested. Rather, I think He’s looking for the sort of living sacrifices described in Rom 12:1ff.
In other words, if the point of the blog is being “kingdom ready” shouldn’t it be primarily concerned with obeying and serving the King – irrespective of his, or His, ontology?
This is what it must be like when British officials debate internally about how to treat Queen Elizabeth, the classic example of a monarch for whom lip service is, practically speaking, all the service there is.
Perhaps you are more interested in obeying the King than it appears. I hope so.
Mike Gantt & Jaco,
Bless you two too!
Do you mean not to do or to do Romans 12:16 (kjv)?
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
John 13:
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
8)
Timothy,
Is adherence to Eph 4:15 not a worthy motive?
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Mike Gantt,
For sure, keeping in context with this long compounded sentence:
Ephesians 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[to plant and water so GOD can give the increase(auxano)]
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[when? at the first resurection: 1 Corinthians 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.]
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[1 Corinthians 11:
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.]
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Timothy,
Speaking the truth in love that we might become more like Christ is a timeless directive.
Unity or Control?
What will be be about?
Mike Gantt and Ray,
Ephesians 5: (kjv)
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
1 Samuel 16:
7 (b) : for the LORD(YAHWEH, Da BOSS) seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the
LORD(YAHWEH, Da BOSS) looketh on the heart.
agape love conquers *ALL*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usxi3mk1k3g&feature=related
Timothy
Ps 110:1 is a prophetic oracle and David was looking forward to the Messiah. The Messiah had not yet come into existence (the beginning of his existence is detailed in Matt and Luke 1). Acts 2:36 shows how the session at the right hand came about. It was at the ascension of Jesus. In Ps 80 we have a reference to “the man of God’s right hand” and he is called the Son of Man. This merely confirms the ADONI of Ps. 110:1 which is never a title of Deity (all 195 times). The whole point of Jesus as the Messiah is lost if he really was originally not God!
Luke 1:35 provides the obvious definition of him as Son of God– by miracle in Mary.
My apologies for a very stupid typo on my part above. I meant of course “The whole point of Jesus as the Messiah is lost if he really was originally God” (I mistyped as ‘not God’)
Anthony
Jaco,
You wrote:
“Timothy,
Try and pick more productive conversations. Don’t sweat the small stuff, don’t be bothered by every little barking dog. Some people are better left in there Harry Potter world…”
Apostle John wrote:
3 John: (nasb)
10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.
Matthew wrote:
Matthew 15: (nasb)
24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.â€
25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!â€
26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.â€
27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.â€
28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.†And her daughter was healed at once.
Jesus Christ said:
Matthew 19: (nasb)
14 But Jesus said, “ Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.â€
Apostle Peter said:
Acts 5: (nasb)
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Apostle Paul wrote:
2 Corinthians 5: (nasb)
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2 Timothy 4: (nasb)
4 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Bless You Jaco!
Timothy
Anthony Buzzard,
you write rightly:
“Ps 110:1 is a prophetic oracle and David was looking forward to the Messiah. The Messiah had not yet come into existence (the beginning of his existence is detailed in Matt and Luke 1). Acts 2:36 shows how the session at the right hand came about. It was at the ascension of Jesus.”
And even more, *the man, Jesus Christ* did not exist before,
*the first man, ADAM*.
1 Corinthians 15: (nasb)
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.†The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
First there was the first ADAM. Then came the second ADAM,
*Jesus Christ*. The second Adam was not there helping GOD create the First Adam.
Bonus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bQnxlHZsjY
Timothy
Timothy,
Well said!
Sarah,
Of whom then does the prophet speak in Micah 5:2?
Ray, (this is written to Ray only, OKAY!?)
Matthew 2: (nasb)
6 ‘ And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah,
Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah;
For out of you shall come forth a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel.’â€
and Hawai’i pidgin
Matthew 2: (HWP)
6 ‘Eh! You Betlehem guys, ova dea Judah side!
All da leadas inside Judah
Tink Betlehem importan.
Cuz from dea goin come [one leada].
He goin take care [GOD]ʼs peopo,
Da Israel peopo.’ â€
[one leada]=my BOSS=Jesus Christ
[GOD]=GOD(DA BOSS=YAHWEH)
my BOSS(Jesus Christ) and GOD are not the same beings
GOD is Da BOSS(YAHWEH)
and my BOSS is leada(Jesus Christ)
*my BOSS* is not *DA BOSS*
my BOSS is our BOSS(Timothy and Rays)
our BOSS is a human being just like us(Timothy and Ray)
our BOSS is the *second Adam*
our BOSS was killed and DA BOSS raised him from the dead
our BOSS is the first resurrected human being
our BOSS is now a spiritual man
our BOSS is sitting on right side of DA BOSS in heaven
our BOSS is coming back to raise us into a spiritual man
Ray, try to give this some concentration: We will be living in Paradise, here on Earth, with *our leada*our BOSS*Jesus Christ*and be
**DA BOSS’s peopo**
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=KTVoXXpqDbk&NR=1
Timothy
Mike,
Micah 5:2 is a prophecy about Jesus Christ. And Micah 5:4 reminds us that YHWH is the God of Jesus:
Sarah,
Yes, but I was wondering how you squared verse two’s “His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity” with a rejection of His preexistence.
Mike,
Here’s a summary quote from an article that thoroughly analyzes Micah 5:2:
“There is nothing here about a Messiah originating in eternity. The force of the entire passage is about the Davidic King Messiah being born in Bethlehem, the home of Jesus’ ancient ancestors where his genealogical lineage began in ancient times.”
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Micah5_2.html
I share the author’s disregard for trinitarian doctrine (http://bit.ly/LUZa2M), but his dismissal of “His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity” strikes me as arbitrary and contrived. For example, he spends time discussing whether this reference could mean before creation or concurrent with creation but then says “This writer does not believe Jesus existed as a person until his birth in Bethlehem.” With respect to preexistence, it doesn’t matter whether Jesus existed before the creation or concurrent with it. The point is that the verse seems clearly to suggest that Jesus existed before His human conception, and that’s all the preexistence per se means. As for his statement of belief, it’s an assertion, not an explanation or justification. I get that he doesn’t think the phrase means Jesus preexisted, but he doesn’t cogently explain why.
Mike,
In my opinion the author provided a solid and reasonable interpretation of the verse. In Matthew 2:6, the priests and scribes refer to Micah 5:2 as predicting the Messiah and King would be born in Bethlehem. They do not substantiate the later Greek philosophical idea that it refers to the Messiah’s pre-existence.
Would you agree with me that the word “Genesis” means beginning? And would you also agree that Adam, whose beginning is described in the book of Genesis, did not consciously pre-exist his entry into the world? If you would agree with these propositions, consider this verse (I put the original greek in bold):
Mike, I won’t post further on pre-existence in this thread out of respect for the original topic. There are a few threads devoted to preexistence, though, if you’d like to carry on the conversation.
Sarah, if you’ll direct me to one of the posts on preexistence you have in mind, I’ll be glad to respond to you there.
In the meantime, I’ll say that I have no interest in substantiating “the later Greek philosophical idea” of preexistence. I am not a philosopher and I’ve never studied philosophy. And I’ve already said that I don’t believe the trinity doctrine; it’s unbiblical and actually anti-biblical.
I only say that a simple reading of Micah 5:2 leaves me uncomfortable saying that the one being described in that verse had no existence whatsoever prior to his human conception and birth – to which, by the way, I deem Matthew to be referring in his first chapter when he used the word genesis. Though that word is used only five times in the New Testament, it is translated four different ways in the NASB, one of the most literal English translations we have. I don’t think it behooves us to suggest that Matthew was using it to foreclose the possibility that the Messiah had some kind of existence prior to being conceived in Mary’s womb.
Mike,
Does Ephesians 4:4 mean each of us pre-existed?
Tim (aka Antioch),
I don’t see how Eph 4:4 speaks to the preexistence of anyone.
My mistake – meant Ephesians 1:4.
Tim (aka Antioch),
I don’t read this verse as speaking to the preexistence of Christ or of us. Rather I read it as speaking of the preexistence of God’s plan of redemption – preexistent to creation, that is. In other words, creation was wrought with redemption in mind.
Our salvation through Christ was not an afterthought to what happened in the garden of Eden.
Mike – I agree with you. So why wouldn’t Micah 5:2 be expressing a similar concept?
Tim (aka Antioch),
Because Micah 5:2 speaks personally of the one who would rule, and says that “his goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity” (NASB) Note that the “goings forth” are “his.”
Thus Eph 1:4 speaks of the plan while Mic 5:2 is focused on the protagonist of the plan.
Mike,
In looking at other translations of this passage, I find it confusing to pin down what the author is saying. For example, the Conntemporary English Version says:
In the footnote it says, ‘whose kingdom is eternal’. That has a drastically different meaning. In short, this verse has many renderings and even the common ones are unclear to me as to what is being said. I think your read is a fair interpretation but it is not something I would feel comfortable basing a doctrine on given the variety of alternate translations.
Tim (aka Antioch),
I agree that it is possible to find translations which do not support the idea of the “ruler” himself having a prior existence, as in the case of the CEV. This, however, is just the problem with such paraphrastic translations. That is, they tend to make certain interpretive choices before the reader ever comes to the scene.
For this reason, I tend to rely on the more literal translations (e.g. NASB, ESV, KJV, ASV), and you may have noticed that they are all fairly consistent on the point in question.
Moreover, it is not though this is the only verse in the Bible that speaks to Christ’s preexistence. Though I can’t help remembering that the apostles talk about Jesus ascending to the right hand of God on the basis of a single OT verse…and this turns out to be the most oft-quoted OT verse in the NT! So, I try to never underestimate the power of a single verse.
Mike,
Correct me if I misunderstood, but didn’t you say you believe Jesus and the Father are really the same person? And that God just temporarily assumed the identity of Jesus? If that’s the case, how would you interpret Ps 110:1 in terms of who is who?
God is who God was; Christ is who He became. This change was not temporary – it was eternal.
Thus we may understand Ps 110:1 as “The [old] Lord said to [the new] Lord…” Christ is our eternal Lord, is He not?
Mike Gantt,
This is nothing but your PHILOSOPHY/illogical:
“God is who God was; Christ is who He became. This change was not temporary – it was eternal.
Thus we may understand Ps 110:1 as “The [old] Lord said to [the new] Lord…†Christ is our eternal Lord, is He not?”
My Paraclete tells me: (kjv)
Proverbs 24:
21 My son, fear thou the LORD(YAHWEH) and the king(Jeshuah): and meddle not with them that are given to change:…..
Romans 1:
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God(YAHWEH) into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
25 Who changed the truth of God(YAHWEH) into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator(YAHWEH), who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD(YAHWEH), I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Timothy
timothy,
Are you saying that Christ is not your eternal Lord?
I am disappointed that the debate over Ps. 110:1 is perceived as a debate between myself and Dr. White!
Who, I want to ask, has ever argued, as does Dr. White, that there is a corruption in the vowel points at Ps. 110:1?
White wants you to believe that the original read: “The Lord YHVH speaks to the Lord God (ADONAI).” That would be God speaking to God, and this is positively not what that verse says. I pointed out early on that the proof that adoni, and not adonai, is the second lord is shown by the Greek LXX and inspired Greek NT, which render adoni as kurios mou (rightly).
Dr. White thought he had found a way out! He said that Ps. 16:2 LXX translates ADONAI as kurios mou. He is right, but he produced a false parallel. He was comparing two different situations. In Ps. 16:2 there is a reference to God alone, one Person is addressed with a double address. In that rare situation kurios mou can render adonai. But there are 439 occs. of adonai, and YHVH to look at! Dr. White did not mention these.
The rule is this. Whenever YHVH is mentioned in connection and contrast with ADONI, my lord, the my lord is invariably not GOD! Adoni is a superior who is not Deithy. Just look through the 195 occs of adoni, my lord, and you will see this easily.
This issue is HUGE since Ps. 110:1 is the NT’s favorite verse by far from the OT. It defines the relationship between the One God and “not-God,” but my lord, adoni.
I Tim. 2:5 sums up this easy matter, reflecting Ps. 110:1, as “one God and one mediator between God and Man, the Man Messiah Jesus.” Jesus, speaking to the high priest referred to the one at the right hand (Ps. 110:1) as the Son of Man, which does not mean GOD. Stephen saw the same Son of Man at the right hand! (Acts 7) Ps. 110:1 will eventually have its day.
God spoke in Ps. 80 of His “right hand MAN.” All this goes back to the prophetic oracle in Ps. 110:1 which conditions the whole NT view of God in relation to His begotten Son.
If you will look at the prestigious ISBE, under the article Lord, you will find “the form adoni, my lord, a royal title is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title ADONAI.
This truth needs to be trumpeted everywhere. Strong’s concordance hides the adoni, adonay difference! That little word adoni (my lord) needs to come out of hiding. At present Ps. 110:1 is a crime scene and the elephant is obvious. My lord the Messiah is a supremely exalted human being, not GOD. There is only one God, the Father, and no other but HE! Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God, of Mary and of David. Tell everyone about him.
Anthony Buzzard,
You concluded:
**This truth needs to be trumpeted everywhere………………………….
My lord the Messiah is a supremely exalted human being, not GOD. There is only one God, the Father, and no other but HE! Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God, of Mary and of David.**
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXw3LgmGUI8&feature=related
Timothy 8)
I am grateful to Sean for allowing this important discussion to continue. The facts in Ps 110:1 (I think there may have been an earlier misreporting here): “Yahweh (the Lord God) gives a prophetic oracle to my lord.”
Dr White as far back as 1998 in email to me believed that the Greek “to kurio mou” (to my lord) would be exactly the same in the LXX as “to kurio” (to the Lord, Adonai). The facts are dead against this. “L’ADONAI” (to the Lord) occurs 11 times in the Hebrew Bible and you can (please do) look them up and see that the Greek LXX is always “to kurio,” (to the Lord) never “to kurio mou” (to my lord). It is just factually wrong to say that the LXX does not distinguish between the Lord God and a human superior.
Secondly Dr. White tried to say that in the DSS you cannot tell the difference between ADNY for ADONAI (Lord) and ADNY for ADONI (lord).
The point he missed was the that these verses were read aloud! And Jerome (in the Vulgate– look it up) and Origen (in his Hexapla) use the Greek form ADONAI! How did they know the word, if it was not well known?
But here is the clincher that in Ps. 110:1 there is no corruption in the Massoretic pointing. The NT confirms the Greek as “to kurio mou” (to my lord). The NT is quite right.
If you will look up “to kurio mou” (to my lord) in the OT you find it regularly refers to a non-Deity superior. Dr. White found two exceptions! He pointed out that in Ps. 16:2 and Ps.35:13, kurios mou translates ADONAI. He is right. But what he did not notice is that in both those exceptions, one person not two is in question. Ps. 16:2 has “you said to the Lord (to kurio) you are my Lord (kurios mou). Because the word “lord” refers to the one God, a single Person, the Greek varies kurios and kurios mou, for reasons of style. Ps. 35:23 is similar. God is addressed as “My God and my Lord” (kurios mou). One Person.
These exceptions do not affect in any way the masses of verses where God (Yahweh) and adoni (my lord, kurios mou) are distinguished. Kurios mou (my lord) is a non-Deity figure distinguished from another Person, the Lord God. This the obvious case in Ps. 110:1. “Yahweh speaks to kurio mou,” “to my lord,” l’adoni. The Hebrew is exactly what we would expect in view of the pervasive usage of adoni (195 times). There is no reason to suspect any confusion or corruption. Dr. White produced a false parallel and was comparing oranges with apples. Two exceptions do not make the rule.
Confirmation comes in the NT in other ways. Elizabeth is excited to meet “the mother of my lord” (Lk 1:43, cp Ps. 110:1) and Jesus is the Lord’s (Yahweh’s) Messiah in 2:26. Jesus obviously understood the lord at the right hand to be the Son of Man (Mark 14:62), and Stephen did not imagine the Lord God to be at the side of the Lord God! He saw the Son of Man (the Human Being) at the right hand in Acts 7:56. Stephen was unaware of any corruption of Ps. 110:1.
The NT creed is perfectly clear and easy in I Tim. 2:5, where “there is one God, ie the Father and one mediator between God and Man, the Man Messiah Jesus.” God is going to judge mankind throught that same Man (Acts 17:31). The Bible says “there is one God, the Father,” never “there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”
Augustine had to forge Jn 17:3 to force a binity into that unitary monotheistic creed of Jesus (read his Homilies on John)
Finally I recommend Dr. Murray Harris’ relevant warning about treating the Hebrew text with respect: In the famous International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, he says in the article “Lord” (Vol. 3, p. 157): “The form adoni (my lord), a royal title, I Sam 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from adonai used over 130 times of YHVH, especially in Pss. and Isaiah.”
The world is in dire need of simplicity and clarity about who God and Jesus are. Christianity is the only world religion which begins by discarding its own founder’s creed (Mk 12:29). Ps. 110:1, as used by Jesus to settle all issues, can help to put this right.
Great discussion or i should say a through evaluation of Psalms 110:1.
Thanks to all who participated in this and shared their views on this important subject , specially brother Jaco.
Sir Anthony Buzzard !!! vow !! , excellent points !.
Sir i admire you and have a great respect for you for the knowledge you have and the way with crystal clarity you present them .
God bless you sir and also people participating here for excellent points.
Sir i saw your debate with Dr James White and Dr Michael Brown ,your position on Psalms 110 was spot on in the debate .
Your points
1) The Jews were discussing this verse for David , or Abraham or Melchizedek
AND
2) Jesus before citing this verse in Mark 12:35 confirms there is only Lord in Mark 12:29 .
These points are spot on sir and should remove any doubt concerning the meaning of this verse.
I have my own extensive study on this topic , i want to share with people on this blog .
In my study iam finding that this verse POINTS MORE TO DAVID and Jesus Christ being the object of this verse is less appealing to me .
I want to know what are the views of people on this blog regarding this.
Shalom,
Dr. Anthony Buzzard’s nonsense and Scripturally unsupportable claim for an EXCLUSIVE “non-deity” Hebrew “adoni” respective of Ps. 110:1 is crushed by the credibly acclaimed Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB) Hebrew lexicon.
On pg. 11 of their published BDB works respective to the Hebrew “adoni” they CLEARLY declare that both the Josh. 5:14 and Jdgs. 6:13 “adoni” Passages are “THEOPHANIC angels” – hence, a Theophany.
Therefore, from ANY respectable and credible dictionary source the word THEOPHANY is legitimately defined as, “an appearance and presence of GOD or god to man.” Hence, a DEITY.
Moreover, a THEOPHANY does NOT mean the appearance of a CREATED angel speaking for and on behalf of GOD either as Dr. Buzzard insists, but rather the literal GOD HIMSELF appearing in the form of a man in the presence of mortal/human man.
So PLEASE – NO MORE Dr. Anthony Buzzard’s Ps. 110:1 Hebrew “adoni” EXCLUSIVELY a non-deity nonsense.
Therefore, who should we theologically believe Dr. Anthony Buzzard and his likeminded and confused colleague Dr. Herbert Bateman OR should we believe the well established and credible BDB lexicon?
barney
barney
I see no reason to believe either one. Neither understand The Yhwh or lessor Yhwh
Dr Ali
Thanks so much.
The NT uniformly and across the board, applies this to the Messiah Jesus. So for us Jesus is the authority and the whole NT.
Ps. 110:1 has YHVH giving a prophetic oracle to ADONI, my (non-Deity) lord.
So for Christian believers Jesus is the final court of appeal.
Thanks for your encouraging remarks
Dr. Ali
my study of this passage in Psa 110 has led me to understand the passage to be prophetic of the coming Messiah. David was a prophet, and as such he did write prophetically about the Messiah to come …
Acts 2:29-30
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne
In a confrontation with the Pharisees, Jesus also speaks of the same truth:
Mt 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Thus, my understanding of the passage in Psa 110 is that it was a prophetic declaration by David regarding the promised Messiah to come.
What strikes me about Psalm 110 is the subordinate role of the second Lord. The first Lord does all the work while the second Lord sits. For the two Lords to be co-equal and co-eternal, you have to invent the doctrine of ‘functional subordination’, because that doctrine is not presented anywhere in scripture.
What also just struck me – ‘sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’. If the two Lords are equal, shouldn’t this be our enemies?
Some say the the vowel markings for Adonai/Adoni were preserved through oral tradition. I sincerely doubt it, due to the fact that the book of the law was FOUND when the temple was being restored during the reign of Josiah in the seventh century B.C.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%2022:8-13&version=NIV
The fact that the book of the law wasn’t familiar to the people of that time, who had been engaging in idolatrous worship of foreign gods for literally generations, indicates that the likelihood that the vowels were all correctly preserved is very minimal.
We need to use context to determine which is meant, Adonai, which would signify God, the Eternal Father, or Adoni, which would signify Jesus Christ, as man, or perhaps merely David or another king, mitigating or eliminating this chapter from consideration as a messianic prophecy.
In the subsequent analysis, let us put aside all assumptions about what we think we know regarding who is who. I will use the abbreviation “A” to denote Adonai/Adoni, “D” for David, who we will assume to be the author, and “J” for Jehovah. I use the following source for the hebrew words:
http://studybible.info/IHOT/psalm%20110
Note: I don’t believe that verb-subject order is an established fact, throughout the Hebrew texts. http://ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com/category/word-order/
I also find it obvious, to the point of needing no supporting evidence, that OT scriptures often change subjects from verse to verse without rhyme or reason. (Hence the appearance of “A or D”, “A or J”, and “D or J” in the following analysis.)
Also, authors occasionally speak of themselves in the third person.
V1: J. tells A. to sit at J.’s right hand until J makes the enemies of A into A’s footstools.
V2: Either J will send the rod of A or D’s strength out of Zion to rule in the midst of A or D’s enemies… OR the rod of A or D’s strength will send J out of Zion to rule in the midst of A or D’s enemies.
V4. J has sworn and will not repent.
V5. A, at J or D’s right hand, will strike through kings in the day of A or J’s wrath (not necessarily the same someone in both cases).
OK, this post is getting pretty long, I’m going to post it and follow up the analysis in an additional post.
1. J. has authority over A, else J. would not be in a position to grant A the position of honor at his right hand.
2. Either J. has authority over the rod of A/D’s strength, to send that rod where he wills… or the rod of A/D’s strength has authority over J. to send him where he wills.
The first case is the traditional interpretation of the verse, J will send the rod of A’s strength out of Zion. The second interpretation would either require the rod of A’s strength or D’s strength to exercise authority over J, which makes little sense unless that rod is also a person.
This would then state that the rod of D’s strength, possibly Adonai, would send J out of Zion. This makes little sense in light of verse 1, where J is shown to have authority over A, UNLESS verse 1 speaks of Adoni and verse 2 is referring to Adonai. I feel a more detailed analysis of the rhyme of this psalm would be necessary to find a definitive answer as to this point.
3. The second half of verse four, mentions the fact that J. does not repent specifically in relation to A or D being a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. I don’t have any problem with either interpretation, personally.
4. It seems extra strange to infer that A is at D’s right hand, so we will disregard that possibility. A is at J’s right hand, as in verse 1. This verse could be speaking of Adonai, prophetically, or Adoni (David) at J’s right hand.
In conclusion, I actually think this was meant to have both meanings, both with David in the place of Adoni and with Christ in the place of Adonai. That’s what makes a great song, right? Multiple meanings? 🙂
Naa, alien to both ancient Jews and earliest Christians.
[…] Anthony Buzzard has helpfully covered Psalm 110:1 many times. See this blog post and this video, in addition to his published works. See also this discussion between Dr. Joe […]
Thanks to all, for the comments on adoni, the second lord in Ps. 110:1. The discussion has become, I think, unnecessarily complex! The easy fact is that ADONI is the way the Hebrew Bible tells us that someone is NOT God. Not Deity. Adoni is “my lord,” and not my Lord. One can look up all 195 occurrences of adoni, and see that it never designates the LORD GOD.
Dr. White’s attempt to derail this decisive argument failed. He tries to get you to doubt the correctness of the Hebrew text as we have it.
But he has no evidence for any corruption here. He is driven only by his Trinitarianism. I pointed out that ADONI is translated (in BC times) into Greek (LXX) as kurios mou, “my lord,” in this case “to my lord.” That simply proves that ADONI was the way the second lord was read. But we know from the DSS and from Targums and Midrash in AD times that Jews never imagined a second Deity in Ps. 110:1. Dr. White forgets that these texts were read aloud, long before the official vowel points were added.
You cannot read a word without vowels!
There is not the slightest evidence from anywhere that ADONAI, rather than adoni, my lord, ever appeared in Ps., 110:1. Psalm 110:1 is an obvious proof that Jesus is the Messiah Lord, who was born (Luke 2:11) and not the LORD GOD, which would produce the horrifying idea of two who are GOD. Jesus is the Lord Christ not the Lord God over and over again in the NT.
Dr. White found two examples of kurios mou as an address to GOD. But he did not tell you how and why these two exceptions arose. It is because of a double-address to a single Person, i.e. God (one Person) addressed as Lord and God. But in Ps. 110:1 we have GOD addressing someone else! So White’s two exceptions do not in anyway interfere with the obvious rule that ADONI, my lord, is never a reference to Deity. There is nil evidence for any mistake in the Hebrew or Greek of Ps. 110:1. Jesus used this verse to silence all objections, and so can we.
Anthony writes- He is driven only by his Trinitarianism.
Responses…As you are driven by your Biblical Unitarianism.
Anthony writes-in AD times that Jews never imagined a second Deity
Response… And in ancient and modern times the Jews never imagined that God had a Son with a human female as you believe so why the endless nit picking on this matter. Why not embrace what you and every imaginable religion and denomination believe with complete unity.
That God cannot and has not had a literal ontological Son. Why not focus on this universal belief to silence the objections.
Mt 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him.
It is very evident that Jesus is dealing with a very poor translation and understanding of Ps. 110:1 created by the fear of using God’s name.
This verse is speaking of the Anointed King of Jerusalem , the Christ . This Psalm should be translated ” The Lord Yhwh said sit at my right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool” .While this applies to Jesus as the last and final King of Salem it also applied to every Godly King from David onward which unfortunately were very few.
There is not two lords in Ps. 110:1 ,only Yhwh and his Anointed
“One can look up all 195 occurrences of adoni, and see that it never designates the LORD GOD.”
Anthony
Yet in just very little research I found contrary evidence .This verse has adoni elohiym (Lord God)
Dan 9:9
Yet the Lord our God is compassionate and forgiving, 1 even though we have rebelled against him.
Would you say “Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool” would cover this statement
“I will give your enemy into your hand, and you can do to him whatever seems appropriate to you.”
Michael attempts: “As you are driven by your Biblical Unitarianism.”
No. Anthony approaches the issue from neutral premises. If any of his premises are slanted, point these out. Hit-and-run tactics hardly ever work.
Another attempt by Michael: “And in ancient and modern times the Jews never imagined that God had a Son with a human female as you believe so why the endless nit picking on this matter. Why not embrace what you and every imaginable religion and denomination believe with complete unity.”
Non-sequitur. It was not inconceivable for ancient Jews to believe in virginal begetting, precisely since (contra pagan deities) the biblical God did not engage in sexual intercourse.
Another: “That God cannot and has not had a literal ontological Son. Why not focus on this universal belief to silence the objections.”
Huh???
Jaco writes- Anthony approaches the issue from neutral premises. If any of his premises are slanted, point these out.
Response…The issue at hand is how Jesus is the Son of God but Anthony and all Biblical Unitarians do not enter this issue from neutral ground with Trinitarians. The debate is NEVER the Biblical Unitarians stating that God is the biological Father of Jesus as
Anthony teaches and then the Trinitarians countering that Jesus was incarnated and was always God the Son.
Instead they first stack the deck so only the Trinitarians have to make their argument and when the Unitarians prove the Trinitarian point false they claim proof and victory for their point of view which is never made and claim the Jews as their unwilling allies in the matter.
Do the Jews believe that Jesus is God the Son, God in the flesh? No.
Do the Jews believe as Anthony teaches that God is the biological Father of Jesus or as Kent Ross teaches that Jesus was conceived with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen human female virgin? No, and you ask if any of Anthony’s premises are slanted?
Jaco writes- Another: “That God cannot and has not had a literal ontological Son. Why not focus on this universal belief to silence the objections.â€Huh???
Response…Know this, that in the endless maze of religions and doctrines there exists a single thread of universal agreement that unites you all even with atheists, That the Lord God does not have an literal, ontological Son as any being does that has had offspring.
You all universally agree that the Creator cannot and has not procreated, that the risen Jesus is not the literal ontological Son of God.
Michael
Are you trying to say Jesus is just a Clone of God but yet you claim that this ontological generation was by receiving the seed during his life. I would say if the risen Jesus was not ontologically the physical Jesus then the risen Jesus is not the physical Jesus therefore another Jesus who was not the one who gave himself up as a sacrifice. If I was you I would not worry about what Anthony believes because atleast his has some historical basis within the pagan religions ,yours doesn’t even make sense or have an origin
Jas writes- Are you trying to say Jesus is just a Clone of God
Response…Quote…â€that in the endless maze of religions and doctrines there exists a single thread of universal agreement that unites you all even with atheists, That the Lord God does not have an literal, ontological Son as any being does that has had offspringâ€.
Where do derive the word “clone†from the words literal and ontological offspring?
Jas writes- you claim that this ontological generation was by receiving the seed during his life.
Response…It is by receiving from God that one becomes a son of God, not by human mothers receiving seed from God to create sons of God.
Jas writes…I would say if the risen Jesus was not ontologically the physical Jesus then the risen Jesus is not the physical Jesus therefore another Jesus who was not the one who gave himself up as a sacrifice.
Response…As I wrote, you agree with all athiests and religions that the risen Jesus is not the literal ontological Son of God but that is harder to write isin’t it?
Jas writes- If I was you I would not worry about what Anthony believes because atleast his has some historical basis within the pagan religions
Response…Which religions do you render as pagan, the ones that teach God is revealed in three persons or the ones that teach that God is the biological Father of Jesus and that Jesus was conceived with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen human female virgin?
Jas writes-yours doesn’t even make sense or have an origin
Response…Sons of God are not begotten by seed?
Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Where are the scriptures that teach God is revealed in three persons or the ones that teach that God is the biological Father of Jesus and that Jesus was conceived with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen human female virgin?
“Where are the scriptures that teach God is revealed in three persons or the ones that teach that God is the biological Father of Jesus and that Jesus was conceived with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen human female virgin?”
Michael
Your barking up the wrong tree, I do not find neither revealed in scripture not hold them as a belief.
The Word of God is the seed spoken of metaphorically in these verses not some literal seed
“That the Lord God does not have an literal, ontological Son as any being does that has had offspringâ€.
Michael
Any being that has an offspring has 2 sources from which it draws its kind. In Horticulture they have managed to combine different species to form new different from their donors. In Genetics they have hybrid different species and have also created clones from a single donor which is what you are proposing with Jesus.
Jas writes- Your barking up the wrong tree, I do not find neither revealed in scripture not hold them as a belief. The Word of God is the seed spoken of metaphorically in these verses not some literal seed
Response…So you find the Trinitarian and Biblical Unitarian doctrines on how Jesus is the Son of God are not found in in scripture and you have further determined that where scripture does reveal how man becomes a son of God to be symbolic, this is your second attempt to deny the Creator procreation without saying the words.
1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
So now you are back to your first reason for God being unable to have a literal ontological offspring even though you will not write down the words, that if you take His word in Peter and John literally then you believe Jesus is a clone.
So again, know this, that in the endless maze of religions and doctrines there exists a single thread of universal agreement that unites you all even with atheists, That the Lord God does not have an literal, ontological Son as any being does that has had offspring.
You all universally agree that the Creator cannot and has not procreated, that the risen Jesus is not the literal ontological Son of God.
Michael
Your use of ontological literal son is not found or even expressed in the bible which is more than likely why almost nobody holds that belief. I am not sure by what source you have developed this belief. Did you just wake up one morning with it?
Going back to topic
The fact is â€Adonai†is only a forced vocalization of the Hebrew word YHWH. Without explanations we could not even pronounce it as â€Adonaiâ€. Anthony said “You cannot read a word without vowels!” which completely true so either the early hebrews were taught how to add vowel’s or God set apart priest who were taught from generation how to add vowels or were taught the scriptures orally then used the written word as a memory tool. I would never put my trust 100% in men because they are bias to many factors.
But overall I think the MT is properly marked but is not without flaw.
Jas writes- Your use of ontological literal son is not found or even expressed in the bible which is more than likely why almost nobody holds that belief. I am not sure by what source you have developed this belief.
Response…Every father you know that has a son that has not been adopted has a literal and ontological son, do you need this expressed to you to believe or know it?
God stated that Jesus was begotten of Him by the resurrection and that Jesus is his Son yet here you and every atheist and religious group conclude that when a man says he has a son then the son is his literal ontological son yet when God says He has a Son you all agree that the Creator could not possibly have a literal ontological Son, what is the source and purpose of this universally shared belief?
How can the whole world be right?
“Every father you know that has a son that has not been adopted has a literal and ontological son”
Michael
And yet that son also has a mother who shares in the same nature. This gives the son individuality . One donor does not provide for individuality therefore what you are implying is nothing more than a clone.
Jas writes- And yet that son also has a mother who shares in the same nature.
Response…God is not a man and again you have found yet another way to proclaim for yourself and the world that agrees with you that God the Father cannot have a literal ontological Son as you can and your reason this time, because God does not have a woman, sorry God, tough break.
Yet Biblical Unitarians believe that God has His Son Jesus precisely because of the contribution of a woman while every other man born of God is an event between God and the one being begotten by Him.
Believe as you will.
Michael
Again I am a strict unitarian who believes Jesus is the Son of God without believing that pagan lie. Ontological has nothing to do with literal sons ,it has to do with the nature of a species which Jesus was ontologically human which would make it impossible to become ontologically God because that would be another Jesus not the one who gave himself up as a sacrifice . I do believe God could change the physics of our body to where spirit is life not blood and believe Jesus was the first generation of humanity to receive spirit as life instead of blood making him the firstborn of God which is the literal sense of being called the Son of God before that there is the adoption which is how Jesus was called the Son of God before he was raised fron dead by the spirit
Jas writes-Again I am a strict Unitarian who believes Jesus is the Son of God without believing that pagan lie.
Response…But not a Biblical Unitarian and the Unitarian belief on Jesus is “Unitarians maintain that Jesus is in some sense the “son” of Godâ€
Jas writes- Ontological has nothing to do with literal sons ,it has to do with the nature of a species which Jesus was ontologically human which would make it impossible to become ontologically God.
Response…Now you are calling God a species, the word god is a title.
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
So if God has a Son then the Son is not another god any more that a president having a child makes two presidents.
Jas writes-I do believe God could change the physics of our body to where spirit is life not blood and believe Jesus was the first generation of humanity to receive spirit as life instead of blood making him the firstborn of God which is the literal sense of being called the Son of God.
Response…Why do you find it impossible to say that God cannot have a literal ontological Son, God is not a human being and you claim His Son the risen Jesus is a human being and then try to justify it with the oxymoron “Literal sense†…“making him the firstborn of God which is the literal sense of being called the Son of God†You either share the same category of being or you don’t, you’re either a literal son or you are not.
Jas writes-before that there is the adoption which is how Jesus was called the Son of God before he was raised from dead by the spirit
Response…Now you have found yet another way to unite with the world and proclaim that God the Father cannot have a literal ontological Son in Jesus, adoption.
Cloning, metaphors, no women and now adoption, is there no end to your reasons for joining the entire world by believing the risen Jesus is not the literal ontological Son of God?
Michael:
You are generalising here. Firstly, regardless of where exactly we’re placing the beginning of Jesus’ existence, Anthony approaches the issue from neutral grounds and NOT from an assumption, unless you can point out where his approach above is biased. Secondly, many non-Trinitarians appreciate the fact that there is Conception Christology, Adoption Christology, Resurrection Christology and Ascension Christology. All of these have support in the Bible. That is not ever the case with Arian or Trinitarian Christology. So the beginning of Messiah’s existence is a non sequitur with the discussion at hand.
And where is this part of Anthony’s argument above???
I thought this was YOUR position??? That Jesus was not ontologically and biologically God’s son but in the Adoptionist sense?
Jaco writes- Firstly, regardless of where exactly we’re placing the beginning of Jesus’ existence,
Response…Regardless? …You believe that God is the biological Father of Jesus with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen betrothed human female virgin and that gets a “regardless” and the Trinity gets called a delusion?
Jaco writes- Anthony approaches the issue from neutral grounds and NOT from an assumption,
Response…Ask the Jews that he uses in his debates if the above statement is an assumption.
Jaco writes-Secondly, many non-Trinitarians appreciate the fact that there is Conception Christology, Adoption Christology, Resurrection Christology and Ascension Christology.
Response…I was on the COG blog and could not find one single person that would appreciate or sign up for the belief that “God is the biological Father of Jesus with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen betrothed human female virginâ€
Jaco writes- the beginning of Messiah’s existence is a non sequitur with the discussion at hand.
Response…How Jesus is the Son of God is the only reason for this and most debates, if Trinitarians believed that “God is the biological Father of Jesus with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen betrothed human female virgin†then no one would be dissecting the word â€Adonaiâ€
Jaco writes- And where is this part (slanted) of Anthony’s argument above???
Response…Because every time Anthony or any Biblical Unitarian debates a Trinitarian the Unitarian belief that that “God is the biological Father of Jesus with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen betrothed human female virgin†is put forth to be examined by the Trinitarians.
In Anthony’s court he is the prosecutor and the jury and never has to put up a defense and you don’t see that as slanted?
Jaco writes- I thought this was YOUR position??? That Jesus was not ontologically and biologically God’s son but in the Adoptionist sense?
Response…The risen Jesus is the literal ontological Son of God, this is his uniqueness. It is you and every atheist and religious group and the world that deny this. As Jas does, you all get to the belief that God the Father cannot have a literal ontological Son in many different ways but all your paths do in fact lead there.
Can’t you see the irony of you and the whole world coming to the conclusion that two that called Father and Son are anything but that?
You’re missing the wood for the trees, Michael. You are still obsessed with the whole “God impregnated Mary” issue, and you can’t seem to look past this issue and approach the matter with less hysteria.
The primary issue is NOT WHEN Messiah had his beginning, but WHETHER he had one. THAT is where the issue lies between Biblical Christology and Trinitarian fabrications. SECOND to this is WHEN Messiah had his beginning and HOW. You mis-represent Anthony as far as his arguments go HERE. His specific take on Jesus’ origin is a distinct issue, albeit related. This distinction you can’t seem to recognise.
Nonsense. Leave a reference where Anthony or anyone else has ever stated this, with specific reference to the sperm part of your statement above.
You’re a lose cannon, Michael. We do not deny the resurrection of Jesus. If you locate Jesus’ sonship at his resurrection, then you subscribe to a Resurrection Christology, which is interesting, and has support in Scripture. How you draw the link between atheists’ denying Jesus’ resurrection and BUs at large highlighting Luke’s conception Christology is an entertaining overstatement.
Hopefully you can engage in less fearful conversation. If you can, then maybe you can explain what your understanding is of the Birth Narratives in Luke and Matthew.
Thanks,
Michael
Yes I am a Biblical unitarian who also draws from historical and cultural context which has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus .It solely is about the nature of the Most High as ONE being.
Jesus was not the first to called God’s son or call God Father. Solomen received this honor in a very descriptive declaration from God to David. As far as virgin birth I have satisfactory historical evidence that it was added a century later to Matthew and Luke. I also have satisfactory historical evidence that “today i have fathered you” was spoken to Jesus at his baptism which is the reason for my adoptionist belief. I also belief it was spoken to him again when he rosed from the dead as the firstborn of the dead by which because this was a new type of human which God was the source of this change from blood to spirit which makes him the literal firstborn of a new creation. While I respect your right to hold that belief I am curious what is your source of it because I dont see it in the bible or in any historical or cultural sources. I have no other choice then to deny your belief because it makes absolutely no sense to me.
I was wondering whether you can discuss topic at hand ,I would certainly love to.
There is a few factors in understanding this verse.
1. The word Adonai does not exist in the verse but is a forced vocalization that isn’t the only vocalization . The others used are Hashem( the name) and Elohim(God).
2. This is a psalm sang outloud about David not by David
3. The grammer of the hebrew text could easily be read YHWH our Lord.
4.The LXX use of 2 Lords in no way compromises the reading YHWH our Lord because this Psalm was sung about David originally which the translators of LXX understood,
5. Jesus’ use and questioning was to show the Pharisees’ understanding of it confirmed Jesus as the Christ because his lineage made him the Son of David to which the promises were made which totally shut their mouths.
Jas,
Perhaps, you might still have the DNA thesis we read about men and womens chromosomes. This genetic code came froms GODs design in his scratch built/created son Adam. Michael should benefit by reading the article?
Luke 3: (KJV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
1 Timothy 2: (kjv)
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
GOD, being the designer/creator of humankind, used his already designed human female to her supernaturally conceive within/by herself.
Genesis 3: (KJV)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
What? A woman has eggs, not seeds. All women must have the same apparatus as Mary, but Mary had the right love of GOD in her heart and was chosen by GOD to give birth of mankind’s savoir.
Luke 1: (kjv)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow[Episkiazo] thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Episkiazo=
to throw a shadow upon, to envelop in a shadow, to overshadow
Hebraism=overshadowed by the grandeur of the recognized presence of God
There is nothing implying that GOD impregnated Mary with his sperm.
The Hebraism, “to know”, means to have sex with, and with a result of conception and childbirth.
1 Corinthians 15: (kjv)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The resurrected, first fruits of the dead, Jesus Christ, is the last Adam.
Revelation 1: (kjv)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Acts 13: (kjv)
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Timoteo
You are correct the birth narratives mentions nothing of the use of sperm but neither did the Pagan legends.
Actually Genesis 3:15 does not even mention seed it mentions Offspring cause a seed has no physical abilities so it is not related to Michael’s use of seed which is only metaphoric as is the term firstfruit as applied to Jesus as the firstborn and the term firstfruits that is applied to the Saints.
Thanks James,
[Zera] is the word translated seed in Genesis 3:15 and is a “masculine noun” used some 229 times in the OT.
Zera=
seed, sowing, offspring
a sowing
seed
semen virile
offspring, descendants, posterity, children
of moral quality
a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)
sowing time
also translated: seed, child, carnally, fruitful, seedtime, sowing time
When the serpent, AKA the devil, a fallen Angel is a spiritual being….then how does this spiritual entity have decedents?
There are still those causing the Christians to question, doubt, change, add to and finally contradict GODs word.
Genesis 3: (KJV)
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, {Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden}?
{GOD did not say this}
2 {And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden}:
{GOD said freely eat=left out the word freely}
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, {neither shall ye touch it}, lest ye die.
{GOD did not say anything about a tree in the midst or touching this tree}
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, {Ye shall not surely die}:
{devil contradicted GOD}
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
GOD said: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
There was a tread here on Kingdom Ready about the Nephilim as described in the uncanonized Book of Enoch. Have you ever read the Book of Enoch?
Jude 1: (NASB)
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
Genesis 6: n (NASB)
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
The delivered Children of Israel saw these giants when they scouted the Promise Land.
Numbers 13: (NASB)
33 There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.â€
Believing about these half-bread humans existence and GODs Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary to bring the conception of Jesus in a virgins womb. These concepts are written about in GODs word, and I am sure that Jesus did not question the scriptures integrity. He also believed GOD would raise him from the dead and that after being resurrected and ascending to GOD, that he would come and indwel his chosen by GOD bretheren as their parakletos. This whole pneumatikos=spiritual matters affair is laid only for the potential christian to begin by believing that GOD did indead raise Jesus from the dead as testified by witnesses.
And furthermore, Jesus encountered extreme prejudice from the religious leaders. Much like we do today, but never did he have to deal with …..about his living a pre existance life, being GOD or about a triune god usurping his love for our one GOD and father.
Sometimes
“When the serpent, AKA the devil, a fallen Angel is a spiritual being….then how does this spiritual entity have decedents?”
Timoteo
That depends upon your understanding of what was the fruit of that tree. It was Satan himself enticing Eve into the act of sex causing the conception of Cain which she then enticed Adam causing another egg to fertilize. As far as the Nephilim maybe it was fallen angels but my understanding is it was men of Seth’s bloodline having sex with 6th day creation daughters that might have been mixed with Cain’s bloodline. Funny that you can believe fallen angels could have offsprings but not THE FALLEN ANGEL satan.
Should we lump God into the same being as fallen angels or satan
Jas,
You seem to be quoting the Quranic version of the biblical story which is totally at variance with the original Torah revelation given to Moses.
The Quran’s version is diametrically opposite and incredibly different.
Genesi 4: (kjv))
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain[Qayin], and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
Qayin=
“possession”
eldest son of Adam and Eve and the first murderer having murdered his brother Abel
the tribe from which the father-in-law of Moses was a member and which lived in the area between southern Palestine and the mountains of Sinai
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
“Should we lump God into the same being as fallen angels or satan”….ahhhhhh, get out of here.
Here:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abook%20of%20enoch
“You seem to be quoting the Quranic version of the biblical story which is totally at variance with the original Torah revelation given to Moses.”
Actually it comes from properly translating the passages.
Seems that this is even a jewish understanding
Yebamoth 103b–Rabbi Johanan stated: “When the serpent copulated with Eve, he infused her with lust.”
Haye Sarah 126a –Another Rabbi states: “Thus I have learnt, that when the serpent had intercourse with Eve he injected defilement into her.”
Haye Sarah 126b–Another stated: “You rightly said that when the serpent had carnal intercourse with Eve he injected into her defilement.”
Yevamot 103b–“According to the midrash, the snake seduced her to commit adultery with him. Thus a thrice repeated saying of Rabbi Yohanan has it that ‘at the time that the snake had intercourse with Eve, he introduced filth into her…”
Ahare Moth 76b–One Rabbinic source stated: “Eve bore Cain from the filth of the serpent, and therefore from him were descended all the wicked generations, and from his side is the abode of spirits and demons.”
Bereshith 36b–“For two beings had intercourse with Eve, and she conceived both and bore two children. Each followed one of the male parents, to this side and one to the other, and similarly their characters.”
Shabbath 146a–“For when the serpent came upon Eve he injected lust into her.”
Yevamot 103b–“…at the time that the snake had intercourse with Eve, he introduced filth into her.
Zohar I, 28b–“For they are the children of the ancient serpent which seduced Eve…”
Targum Pseudo-Jonathan–“Adam knew about his wife Eve that she had conceived by Sammael the angel of the Lord, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain.”
Jewish Encyc.1904-Vol.9.p.70–“The chief functions fo Satan are, as already noted, those of temptation, accusation, and punishment. He was an active agent in the fall of man(Pirke R.El.Xii.) and was the father of Cain.”
Jewish Encyc.1904-Vol.5,p.275-“Eve became pregnant, and bore Cain and Abel on the very day of (her creation and) expulsion from Eden (Gen.R.xii) Cain’s real father was not Adam, but one of the demons…”
Pirqei de Rabbi Eliezer: “The serpent came into her and she became pregnant with Cain, as it says, “And the man knew his wife Eve.”What did he know” That she was already pregnant.(by Satan.)
Targum of Jonathan–“And Adam was aware that Eve his wife had conceived from Sammael the angel, and she became pregnant and bare Cain, and he was like those on high, not like those below; and she said, ‘I have acquired a man, the angel of the Lord.”
Jerusalem Targum–“And Adam knew his wife, who had desired the Angel; and she conceived, and bare Cain; and she said, I have acquired a man, the Angel of the Lord. And she added to bear from her husband Adamhis twin, even Abel.”
The Encycl.Britannica Vol.VIII-1910.p.122 (Jewish Interpretations of Scripture) “The birth of Cain is ascribed to a union of Satan with Eve.”
Jewish Encycl.1905.Vol.XI p.69–“Satan was the seducer and paramour of Eve.”
Jaco writes- You are still obsessed with the whole “God impregnated Maryâ€
Response…Anyone begotten by God has no involvement from a human woman; it is Biblical Unitarians that insist that a human woman was necessary for Jesus to become the Son of God.
Jaco writes-The primary issue is NOT WHEN Messiah had his beginning, but WHETHER he had one. THAT is where the issue lies between Biblical Christology and Trinitarian fabrications.
Response…That’s the way you phrase the question on how Jesus is the Son of God so that you don’t have to explain the Biblical Unitarian fabrication on how “God is the biological Father of Jesus with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen betrothed human female virginâ€
Quote- “God is the biological Father of Jesus with sperm from God with the necessity of His chosen betrothed human female virginâ€
Jaco writes-Nonsense. Leave a reference where Anthony or anyone else has ever stated this, with specific reference to the sperm part of your statement above.
Response…You don’t believe that Anthony teaches that God is the biological Father of Jesus?
You don’t believe that Kent Ross teaches that sperm from God was used with the necessity of a human female virgin to conceive Jesus?
On Jan 29 2013 COG blog, I quoted Anthony from the byte show ,a four part series on the biblical understanding of Jesus
Quote by Anthony Buzzard-“If you were sitting around the table with Jesus back then and asked him who his father was then he would answer that his father was God. In a secondary sense we can call God our Father but Jesus can call him in the literal sense his biological father”.
Quote by Sean Finnegan-“God himself is going to father the child through the Holy Spirit miraculously, so the child is biologically, if we can use that word, the son of God. If you drew a family tree of Jesus on the mother’s side it would go back and back, on his dad’s side there would just be one, God.”
Here is Kent Ross defending his sperm from God on the COG blog in February 2013
Why the deep discomfort with the term “sperm” from God?
From what I’ve seen here, you have virtually no Scriptural evidence to decry this.
Jaco writes- If you locate Jesus’ sonship at his resurrection, then you subscribe to a Resurrection Christology, which is interesting, and has support in Scripture
Response…Jesus was the Son of God from the moment he received his seed from God as any one born of God, Jesus became God’s only begotten Son by the resurrection.
Jaco writes- How you draw the link between atheists’ denying Jesus’ resurrection and BUs at large highlighting Luke’s conception Christology is an entertaining overstatement.
Response…I don’t draw a link with these two topics, I am simply pointing out to you that you have complete unity with every atheists, religious group and the world that the risen Jesus is not the literal ontological Son of God.
Again, how can the whole world be right?
Jas writes- Yes I am a Biblical Unitarian who also draws from historical and cultural context which has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus
Response…AKA The stone of stumbling.
Jas writes- I also have satisfactory historical evidence that “today i have fathered you†was spoken to Jesus at his baptism which is the reason for my adoptionist belief.
Response…Where is “Today I have begotten you†spoken at the baptism of Jesus? Jesus was not adopted.
Jas writes- because this was a new type of human
Response…Just like the word “Trinityâ€, a “new type of human†is not found in scripture
Jas writes- While I respect your right to hold that belief I am curious what is your source of it because I dont see it in the bible
Response…What belief do I hold and what part can’t you find in scripture?
“Where is “Today I have begotten you†spoken at the baptism of Jesus? Jesus was not adopted.”
Michael
In the oldest fragments of Luke and in many pre-nicene commentaries of Jesus’ baptism.
Dont blame me because I have done my homework myself instead of trusting bad translations and men
Michael, you again go off on your hystrionic hissing trip, which just confirms why there’s no point in trying to engage you. If God is the literal Origin of anybody, the relationship is a biological one. Not necessarily a SEXUAL one ( hence my objection to the “sperm” part of the comparison, whoever made it). Adam was, for instance, NOT God’s son in the sexual sense, but could be understood as his son in a biological and literal sense.
You also come across as a troll whose only interest is to attack, and not to discuss. If you were interested in discussing why didn’t you give an answer to my question on how you understand the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke?
And if you’re going to get yet another hissing fit, I’m not going to respond, since you’ll be a waste of time. Continued, civil discussion will depend on the maturity of your response.
Jas writes-While I respect your right to hold that belief I am curious what is your source of it because I don’t see it in the bible
Jas writes-In the oldest fragments of Luke and in many pre-nicene commentaries of Jesus’ baptism.
Dont blame me because I have done my homework myself instead of trusting bad translations and men
Response…Don’t trust in men trust in Jas? Don’t believe what’s not written in the Bible only believe what Jas says even though it’s not written in the Bible?
Heads you win, tails I lose. You are a Biblical Unitarian, always operating with a stacked deck.
Jaco writes- If God is the literal Origin of anybody, the relationship is a biological one.
Response…Is God biological?
Jaco writes- Adam was, for instance, NOT God’s son in the sexual sense, but could be understood as his son in a biological and literal sense.
Response…Again and I quote from post 227, “Anyone begotten by God has no involvement from a human woman; it is Biblical Unitarians that insist that a human woman was necessary for Jesus to become the Son of Godâ€
This includes Adam, Adam became a son of God the moment he received a se3ed from Him and was rendered dead the moment he sinned because his seed could no longer remain rendering him dead with no seed to be quickened by the resurrection.
Jaco writes-If you were interested in discussing why you didn’t give an answer to my question on how you understand the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke.
Response…You didn’t ask me how I understand the birth narratives, you asked you “How you draw the link between atheists’ denying Jesus’ resurrection and BUs at large highlighting Luke’s conception Christology is an entertaining overstatement†and I answered your question.
Jaco writes- And if you’re going to get yet another hissing fit, I’m not going to respond, since you’ll be a waste of time. Continued, civil discussion will depend on the maturity of your response.
Response…You seem to be the only one posting whose maturity seems to be in question because it is your doctrine that’s being questioned and Biblical Unitarian writings are being examined.
Trinitarians are clearly better at having their doctrine examined than Biblical Unitarians are.
“This includes Adam, Adam became a son of God the moment he received a se3ed from Him and was rendered dead the moment he sinned because his seed could no longer remain rendering him dead with no seed to be quickened by the resurrection.”
Nonsense. Adam became God’s son the moment he was created by God. This seed business has no basis in the Bible.
“You didn’t ask me how I understand the birth narratives, you asked”
Err…comment no. 218? Where I said: “Hopefully you can engage in less fearful conversation. If you can, then maybe you can explain what your understanding is of the Birth Narratives in Luke and Matthew.” ???
Michael, you deserve to be ignored. Who have you convinced since your fits here? Your position is as sterile as the “seedless” Adam. Good luck, pal.
Jaco,
One needs to take the time to continue their education…..I use Google and thought I would share a link about “histrionic”.
HYSTRIONIC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder
I think this is an “X ring” bulls-eye for all to examine themselves.
And…since GOD created the first/biological man, Adam, and our Earth with all its science/physics, elements, geology, and biology…he can and did make a new creation when he resurrected Jesus into Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15: (kjv)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
GOD did the making/creating and
“Father Along”
we will know all about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IctD9l4F-ag
Timothy
I would be very careful in labeling Michael with a disorder. He just believes his understanding of seed is literal and wants to share but he has no proof so its hard for him to explain without attacking evidence against it.
His belief about the seed exist by the same method your belief on baptism exist.
I agree with Jaco that it is an unproductive conversation with Micheal but my reason is Michael does not present any real source for his belief which makes it very hard to research and draw a conclusion.
Jas,
“I would be very careful in labeling Michael with a disorder.”
Well then continue being careful.
Reading Googled information is for everyone, all without exception.
“Don’t trust in men trust in Jas? Don’t believe what’s not written in the Bible only believe what Jas says even though it’s not written in the Bible?”
Michael
I have never asked anyone to just trust me, matter is I have asked them not to and research for themselves proving and reproving what they believe and disproving what I present if Possible . I am not flawless and am subject to better understandings if they can be proved sufficiently .
Jaco writes-Nonsense Adam became God’s son the moment he was created by God. This seed business has no basis in the Bible.
Response…One is born of the Spirit by seed according to what is written in the Bible.
1Peter1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Unlike Adam, now one born of the Spirit does not lose their seed by committing a sin.
1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because
God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Where is the word Trinity in the Bible or the word agent or new humanity? Where is God declaring “thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee†at the baptism of Jesus?
It is this business of the Trinity, agent, new humanity God declarations at a baptism that have no basis in the Bible.
Jaco writes- If you can, then maybe you can explain what your understanding is of the Birth Narratives in Luke and Matthew
Response… The first time you used the word “nonsense “when you claimed that something was not said or written was your attempt at denying that Anthony had saidâ€If you were sitting around the table with Jesus back then and asked him who his father was then he would answer that his father was God. In a secondary sense we can call God our Father but Jesus can call him in the literal sense his biological fatherâ€.
When asked to explain this statement Anthony said “God is his Father by working a biological miracle in Mary. Is that OK?â€
So the Biblical Unitarian position on how Jesus is the Son of God is very simple and straightforward, it was a biological miracle. So the BU explanations of the birth narratives must also be simple and straightforward, the angel came to Mary and said God is going to cause you to become pregnant with the Son of God and really, who can’t understand that definition?… apparently Mary and her family.
Luke 2:48-51 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
God’s business was obviously temple business; could that have not been understood by Mary?
Jesus called God his Father and if Mary understood as you do that Jesus was the Son of God according to the flesh then how does she look at these two simple and straightforward statements by Jesus and not understand what he is talking about?
The angel told two things to Mary and an angel told Joseph one thing.
Joseph was told that the child to be born was of the Holy Ghost and he was to name the child Jesus.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mary was told that she would conceive a child and like Joseph was told to call him Jesus. Unlike Joseph she was additionally told that her son would be called the Son of the Highest. Mary did not know how she could have a child with no male involvement and certainly did not know how the child could be the Son of God.
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man
So the angel told her how she would conceive and how the child would be the Son of God.
Luke 1:35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Two actions of the Spirit were told to Mary and one action was told to Joseph but she did not understand how Jesus was the Son of God but she knew it wasn’t because of the biological conception in her.
Jaco writes- you deserve to be ignored
Response…Who has urged you to participate?
Jaco writes- Who have you convinced since your fits here?
Response…No one that I know of has been convinced but as for the “fits†you are the man.
Jaco writes- Your position is as sterile as the “seedless†Adam. Good luck, pal.
Response…Believe as you will.
“Where is God declaring “thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee†at the baptism of Jesus?”
NET © and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. 1 And a voice came from heaven, “You are my one dear Son; 2 in you I take great delight.†3
3 Instead of “You are my one dear Son; in you I take great delight,†one Greek ms and several Latin mss and church fathers (D it Ju [Cl] Meth Hil Aug) quote Ps 2:7 outright with “You are my Son; today I have fathered you.â€
Michael
The fact most of the pre-nicene fathers quote this version is a very powerful witness.
Why dont you do just a little research instead of building a doctrine around a few verses which you think are literal but are just METAPHORIC
Jas writes- The fact most of the pre-nicene fathers quote this version is a very powerful witness.
Why don’t you do just a little research instead of building a doctrine around a few verses which you think are literal but are just METAPHORIC
Response…The KJV,NKJV,NLT,NIV,ESV,NASB,RSV,ASV,YLT,DBY,WEB and the HNV do not list the second Psalm at the baptism of Jesus and if you understood why God said these words you would know why it wasn’t quoted there.
But then again you said that you were a “Biblical Unitarian who also draws from historical and cultural context†meaning that you draw conclusions from sources other than the Bible which gives, at least to you, more accuracy then those lazy men that have translated the Bible.
So you were right when you said “Don’t blame me because I have done my homework myself instead of trusting bad translations and menâ€
Seriously, don’t you believe you owe it to mankind and God to expose all the errors of the lazy men that translated the word of God so God’s people can discern the truth with the JAS translation?
You could add the words agent, new humanity and psalm 2 into Matthew 3:17 and who knows what else you have researched and then everyone could actually find Biblical Unitarian doctrine in scripture.
I’ll stick with the versions that we already have.
“The KJV,NKJV,NLT,NIV,ESV,NASB,RSV,ASV,YLT,DBY,WEB and the HNV do not list the second Psalm at the baptism of Jesus and if you understood why God said these words you would know why it wasn’t quoted there.”
Michael
Why would they since they believe Jesus was eternally begotten but this statement shows your lack of knowledge on where all these translations get their source. There are literally several 1000’s of ancient NT Manuscripts . Greek,Old Latin, Latin Vulgate , old Aramaic and Peshita but none are the autographs and no whole collection that dates before 340 AD. But the Pre-nicene writers give us clues to the readings in the books they had access to and if they Quoted or spoke of Jesus’ baptism they always quoted it as the same as Psalm.
“Seriously, don’t you believe you owe it to mankind and God to expose all the errors of the lazy men that translated the word of God so God’s people can discern the truth with the JAS translation?”
Dont you want to follow the best and oldest readings or should you follow a lie. Do you know how many variants exist amongst the english translation you named above, they are enormous because every translator will not translate against their doctrine completely.
So stick to them if you want to follow their lies or do some research to uncover their lies
Of the “The KJV,NKJV,NLT,NIV,ESV,NASB,RSV,ASV,YLT,DBY,WEB and the HNV Jas writes- So stick to them if you want to follow their lies or do some research to uncover their lies
Response…Yet with all their lies you still find complete unity with them and the world that risen Jesus is not the literal ontological Son of God, at least they got one something right in your mind.
Micheal
I am also in unity with them that dark is night and light is day. There is a very good reason why we agree, there is absolutely nothing in the bible or anywhere that Jesus is the literal ontological Son of God which would be like calling the light night.
Michael,
ref # 238
“Response…One is born of the Spirit by seed according to what is written in the Bible.
1Peter1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
FYI
Jesus taught that the word of GOD is seed.
Luke 8: (kjv)
11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
The parable of the sower is one to study and heed.
Actually, being Kingdom ready, rerquires producing fruit to your maximum abilities.
15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
And being kingdom ready.
Timoteo writes- ref # 238 “Response…One is born of the Spirit by seed according to what is written in the Bible. 1Peter1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.â€
FYI
Jesus taught that the word of GOD is seed.
Luke 8: (kjv)
11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
The parable of the sower is one to study and heed.
Response…
John 3:1-8There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
…Nicodemus knew Jesus was a teacher come from God and that no man could do these miracles except God be with him. So Jesus tells him how someone has God with them, by being born of God. Nicodemus thinks being born of God has something to do with his birth mother and Jesus tells him “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit†and that “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spiritâ€
And so this is with everyone born of the Spirit including the man Jesus.
“And so this is with everyone born of the Spirit including the man Jesus.”
Michael
And how does this make Jesus the literal ontological Son of God. Where is this seed spoken of to Nicodemus ?
Man is formed from the dust and to dust he will return. In the resurrection which God spoke of through Ezekiel about the bones that are Israel it requires water to reform flesh upon them bones and also requires something to carry life to all the parts. We know that this was the function of blood but in the resurrection life will be carried by spirit. Being born again is metaphoric for the resurrection . I find this passage very clear and not at odds with hebrew scriptures.
Jas writes- And how does this make Jesus the literal ontological Son of God.
Response…Receiving a seed from God made Jesus the Son of God as it is with any one born of the Spirit, it was the sowing and quickening of the seed that by death and the resurrection that Jesus became God’s only begotten Son, the literal ontological Son of God.
Jas writes- Where is this seed spoken of to Nicodemus?
Response…He did not tell Nicodemus how God begat his children, He told Nicodemus how one could become born of God which still was a future event because Jesus had to die and be and become God’s only begotten Son by the resurrection, this is the only Son God could give for eternal life, the risen and only begotten.
John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
37:1 The hand 1 of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and placed 2 me in the midst of the valley, and it was full of bones. 37:2 He made me walk all around among them. 3 I realized 4 there were a great many bones in the valley and they were very dry. 37:3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?†I said to him, “Sovereign Lord, you know.†37:4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and tell them: ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 37:5 This is what the sovereign Lord says to these bones: Look, I am about to infuse breath 5 into you and you will live. 37:6 I will put tendons 6 on you and muscles over you and will cover you with skin; I will put breath(spirit), 7 in you and you will live. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’â€
37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. There was a sound when I prophesied – I heard 8 a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 37:8 As I watched, I saw 9 tendons on them, then muscles appeared, 10 and skin covered over them from above, but there was no breath(spirit), 11 in them.
37:9 He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath(spirit), 12 – prophesy, son of man – and say to the breath(spirit), : ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Come from the four winds, O breath(spirit), , and breathe on these corpses so that they may live.’†37:10 So I prophesied as I was commanded, and the breath(spirit), came into them; they lived and stood on their feet, an extremely great army.
Michael
Can tendons,muscle and skin exist without water . This verse is just confirming the resurrection which is the regeneration aka reborn, born again. Absolutely no one not even Jesus could enter without water for the regeneration and spirit for life instead of blood. Blood is the only thing missing from Jesus’ resurrected body.
Again you use literal ontological son without any basis for it.
Michael,
There is no “seed” involved other than the metaphors in 1 Corinthians 15 describing the death and resurrection of Jesus.
He died as Jesus and became the first fruits from the dead, the then bornagain man Jesus Christ.
No one else has been or will be bornagain until Jesus Christ returns and “his” will be resurrected, as the next fruits and changed as they enter the Kingdom of GOD.
Many are Christians in the process of being born again as they stay in the race, the prize, being to be born again.
14:4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves 6 with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from humanity as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb
Timothy
Jesus was the firstFRUIT of the firstfruits. Each in their own order
1. Jesus as the firstfruit of many fruits.
2. The firstfruits who are those who were not defiled by the whore aka covenant Israelites which includes many gentiles in NT times who obeyed the commandments of God
3. Those who are Jesus’ because He purchased them with the price of his blood. The theif on the cross as example who definitely was not in covenant with God
Micheal
Your belief makes God a liar to Ezekiel
Jas, buenos dias
Our adversary, has a lot of cards on the table with the ongoing, near crisis at hand in the Ukraine. Still, the purpose of this LHIM blog is to educate{doctrine}, test{reproof} and re-mediate{correction}, bringing the few to a Kingdom Ready, on alert, status.
2 Timothy 3: (kjv)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect[artios], thoroughly furnished[exartizo] unto all good works.
artios=
complete
perfect
exartizo=
to complete, finish
to furnish perfectly
to finish, accomplish
to be completely, completely, completely, complete
2 Timothy 4:
4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
Every human being will be resurrected in their own order, the just, to eternal life and then, the unjust to judgement and elimination.
To judge or be judged?
1 Corinthians 6: (kjv)
6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
2 Timothy 2: (kjv)
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
American Urban Music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9IfHDi-2EA
Timothy
I agree the beast has lots of cards, it always did even from the time of Noah through the time of Israel where it drew multitudes away from their God but never more then since its come back after Jesus mortally wounded it by bringing back many of his people back to God. Slowly it came back to power till it merged with a very powerful empire in the 4th century more powerful then the empires of its past.
For 1260 years the set apart flourished in the wilderness although constantly being sought out by the beast till the rise of the false prophet who retain at least one lie of the beast wrapped by at least one truth but still employed persecution as a tool in the beginning.
I agree that there will be 2 resurrections with the righteous being fewer in comparison and these righteous judging the nations during the millennium but no where is it stated these Saints have been given eternal life ,matter is it is stated they still can die . The 2nd will be of the Great and Small who are everyone who ever lived who Jesus purchased back for God by his blood. These will be judged out of the book of Life and book of the dead by their own actions. This is the resurrection and Judgement we will receive which yes being a follower of Jesus will insure a favorable judgement unless we deny this grace or have taught Israel to forsake the words of the Covenants .
I realize this will not be favorable to you because you believe you are one of the few so much so you have stated you were one of two at this site that are true christians condemning all the rest to judgement and elimination.
PSALMS 80:17
17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man [whom] thou madest strong for thyself.
It seems to me that since the “man of thy right hand” is the same designation used for the unknown “YHWH/Adoni/Adonai” of Psalm 110, that Psalms 80:17 is a terribly important clue that at the least, Psalms 110 was not written by some servant of King David.
ROTB
Nobody knows who wrote Psalms 110 but it was definitely wrote about David’s Messianic kingly line of the United Kingdom of Israel of which Jesus was anointed. Jesus when asking the Jews their understanding of it never explains his understanding of it. Neither Psalm is refering to a unknown “YHWH/Adoni/Adonai†.
It is astonishing that the creed of Jesus and Israel in Mk 12:29 cannot be accepted as proof that only the Father is God. Jesus said exactly that in Jn 17:3 “You Father are the only one who is true God.” If that is not clear, language has ceased to have meaning. Then this (Mk 12:29): “The Lord our God is one person.” Eis in Greek means one Person. There are singular personal pronouns for the One God, thousands and thousands of times!
All this is not complex. But as Millard Erickson says in his book on the Trinity (pro-Trinity), a schooled Trinitarian must be willing to say “He are three and They is one.”
Now that is complicated!
Amen, Anthony! The degree to which Greek philosophy has infected Christian doctrine is astounding. When the platonic filter is removed, one suddenly realizes how crystal clear scripture is about our One God, the Father.
Jesus never intended for men to do what they sometimes do with Mk 12:29, and one day they will have to answer to him for all the harm they have done to others by those things.
Jesus walked in a lot of liberty and he intends that we will also. There is a perfect liberty that is by the Spirit of God, and that Spirit will not be hindered by the dictates of carnal men. The Spirit of God will not be bound by men. He doesn’t bow to the will of man. The Spirit of God is obedient to God.
One of the tragedies of this hopelessly complex discussion is that some who participate are not able to read the Hebrew, and yet pronounce upon what it says!
Someone cited Dan 9:9 to the effect that ADONI refers to God. But is that factually right?
If John 17:3 cannot persuade a person that “only the Father is true God” (plus 1300 refs to the Father as God in the NT) nothing can. “The Lord is our God; the Lord is one Person (eis). Not so difficult!
Ray,
You are all and all, all right, because you know you have Christ in you.
1 Corinthians 2: (kjv)
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 Corthians 14: (kjv)
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Romans 8: (kjv)
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
and
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
You are AOK Ray.
1 Corinthians 13: (kjv)
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is NOT PUFFED UP…….
1 Corinthians 1: (kjv)
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Hi Jas
You wrote “Yet in just very little research I found contrary evidence .This verse has adoni elohiym (Lord God)”
but Da 9:9 has la’donay ‘elohenu = To the Lord our God = to Adonay our God=to Adonay our Elohim
thanks!
Let’s remember that at the time David wrote Psalm 110, Jesus (David’s Lord) was not human, but he was divine.
Ray,
I remember differently about Jesus’s human DNA which would be carried on by his human mother Mary.
Matthew 1: (KJV)
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the FATHER[aner=old man/father] of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
So, Jesus inherited Davids DNA through his HUMAN MOTHER, Mary and
a divine nature from YAHWEH, his heavenly father.
Jesus began his being a living human being at his divine conception/human birth. He existed in GODs plan for mankind’s redemption as these prophesy’s foretell:
Genesis 3: (KJV)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Galatians 3: (KJV)
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Timototeo,
Have you never read how Jesus (David’s Lord) was at the right hand of God and existed even from the womb of the morning? (see Psalm 110.)
Anthony,
Please read John 17:3 in the context of his entire gospel.
Hello Ray,
You have written:
“Have you never read……?”
I think you mean: have you ever read?
Yes Ray, I have read Psalm 110 and I have just seen and read it again and here is a copy past of verse one.
Psalm 110: (KJV)
1 The LORD[#1] said unto my Lord[#2], Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Ray, what are the names and titles for:
#1……….
and
#2……….
and when and where did #2 sit down at #1’s right hand?
Timoteo,
The Lord God almighty spoke unto David’s Lord (whom we now know as being Jesus) while he sat at the right hand of God the Father, in the heavenlies, and this at the very time of David’s writing.
Ray,
Yes and No.
Yes, # 2 is referring to Jesus.
and Yes # 1, being in all capital letters, LORD is *YAHWEH*, GOD almighty’s proper name.
*NO*, Jesus was only present in YAHWEH’s foreknowledge and Davids DNA, he was not yet conceived or born as a living human being.
Psalm 110 is prophesy, fore telling, about future events yet to come into fruition.
On September 11, 3 BC, Mary, daughter of Joseph, gave birth to Jesus of YAHWEH.
Jesus grew up and was raised by his stepfather Joseph, Mary’s husband and father of Jesus’ half brother and sister siblings.
He began, an about three year ministry, teaching about the coming Kingdom of YAHWEH to Earth. His ministry ended with his passion by being crucified and buried dead for three days and three nights.
After the three days and three nights, GOD, his heavenly father, raised him from the dead as a new spiritual dimensional, alive man. For forty days he then hung out with his disciples, including Judas, whom he had forgiven.
He told his disciples they would be baptized with holy spirit and receive power. Moments later he ascended to Heaven and sat down at the right hand of GOD, YAHWEH, his heavenly father.
1 Timothy 2: (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
His ascension took place many years after Psalm 110 had prophesied that he would sit at YAHWEH’s right hand. And there he sits to this moment, awaiting GOD’s signal to return to Earth, just as the two men dressed in white have foretold.
Acts 1: (KJV)
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
note: Judas Iscariot was not a Galilean and was not present with the remaining 11 disciples. He had gone and committed suicide in the same manner as King Saul.
Acts 1: (KJV)
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Psalm 110 is written in the spirit of prophecy, telling truth as it is. At the time it was written, just as it says, is what was. Yes, Jesus was at the right hand of the Father in heaven, ruling and reigning with him at the time Psalm 110 was first penned. I trust it was he who spoke the world into being, according to what God the Father revealed to him, and by the power of God it was finished.
I do have a question regarding the Hebrew ××“× ×™ (Adonai). Please answer if you know enough Hebrew to talk about the vowel pointing. I understand the MT scribes put the vowel pointing into the text.
When you have the vowel pointing of gametes yod in Adonai is that ONLY for the name of YHWH God or can that vowel pointing being applied to another person besides YHWH? I am referring to gamets vs patach.
This is a real question and not a bated one.
Thank you.
Ben
It was the qamets you in Adonai that distinguished it’s application from every other vowel pointing, including chireq you and patach you. And even without the vowel distinction do we still have HaShem speaking to someone distinct from him who would only temporarily rule thanks to the authority granted him. This isn’t something one would expect from the All Sufficient and Eternally Almighty.
The LXX and later targumim confirm this understanding.
Thanks
ERRATUM: Due to Autocorrect you above should be yod.
Jaco
First, let me say that if you hold to your Unitarianism theology then of course you would consider the chireq yod. If a trinitarian looked at the text without vowel pointing then of course he would consider the qamets yod.
Second, the LXX has not weight in this matter since it makes no distinction from its language. There is no YHWH in Greek, just kurios for both “lord/master” and “LORD/YHWH”. That is a weak argument to make.
Third, which Targum are you referring too?
Conclusion, neither case can be proven unless you ask David himself. The only reference is from Yeshua who says David was speaking of Messiah in the Psalm and David and was calling him either adoni or Adonai (qamets yod). I believe verse 5 of Psalm 110 can answer both questions. If Messiah is sitting at the right hand then verse 5 says YHWH is at His right hand. Unless you can show me where YHWH is at the right hand of the Messiah.
Thanks.
Also there is precedence in Jewish writings for Messiah being called YHWH.
“Behold, the days are coming, says YHWH, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name by which he shall be called: YHWH our righteousness.†Jeremiah 23:5-6
The Name of the Messiah will be YHWH,
“What is the name of King Messiah? R. Abba b. Kahana said: His name is ‘YHWH; as it is stated, And this is the name whereby he shall be called, YHWH is our righteousness (Jer. XXIII, 6).1 For R. Levi said: It is good for a province when its name is identical with that of its king, and the name of its king identical with that of its God. ‘It is good for a province when its name is identical with that of its king,Â’ as it is written, And the name of the city from that day shall be YHWH is there (Ezek. XLVIII, 35).2 ‘And the name of its king identical with that of its God,Â’ as it is stated, Â’And this is the name whereby he shall be called, YHWH is our righteousness.Â’â€
Lamentations Rabbah 1:51, Soncino Press Edition, cf. Baba Batra 75b
“Also there is precedence in Jewish writings for Messiah being called YHWH.”
Ben \
Is there a precedence set in the NT to show this has came? There is also a precedence for people in the OT to be named making a statement about YAH
45 aNow from the 1sixth hour darkness 2fell upon all the land until the 3ninth hour.
46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “aEli, Eli, lama sabachthani?†that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?â€
47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, “This man is calling for Elijah.â€
48 aImmediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49 But the rest of them said, “1Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him2.â€
Have you ever wondered why they thought he was calling Elijah? Could it be Jesus actually called out Eli Jah Eli Jah but it was removed by the Roman Church to hide the fact Jesus had a God named YAH
Jas
“Have you ever wondered why they thought he was calling Elijah? Could it be Jesus actually called out Eli Jah Eli Jah but it was removed by the Roman Church to hide the fact Jesus had a God named YAH”
Sorry Jas but I go by what the Hebrew Bible says with the New Covenant writings. Unless you can show this so called Roman Church removal and how the NT is wrong then I don’t see your point.
I demonstrated from Jeremiah 23 that the Rabbi’s understood this to be Messiah who would be called YHWH by name. So unless you have another point to make I believe I have made mine.
How about answering the first question having your answer in mind for other question.
No you made a point that was only relevant to OT and 2nd temple Judaism not NT
Sorry Jas but I go by what the Hebrew Bible says with the New Covenant writings. Unless you can show this so called Roman Church removal and how the NT is wrong then I don’t see your point.
Ben
Do you know that in 2nd temple judaism the name of the Creator The God of Abraham was not spoken . So hearing Eli Yah would be foreign to them but Eliyah was a very known personality out of OT. In what universe would crying out Eli Eli bring about one person thinking he said Eliyah but since the disuse of God’s name by those of Judea at that time would certainly make ELI YAH confusing because of disuse and no one knew that Eliyah meant “YAH MY GOD”
Jas
Where do you get your information that during the 2nd Temple Judaism thee name of YHWH was not spoken? I am Jewish and know for certain that it was spoken and even after, only Rabbi’s would speak it and teach it to their students in secret. You are misinformed.
Your Eli Yah theory is weak and I don’t know from what text you are getting your conclusions from. The name YHWH was spoken throughout the TaNaKh and continued in the NT. Even in the DSS Greek fragments contained YHWH in Paleo-Hebrew. So unless you have tape recordings of them not saying the name you shouldn’t speak theory over truth.
And as beat up as Yeshua was I don’t see how they would have understood much from him when he spoke. And “Eli Lama” could easily be mistaken for “Elijah” in Hebrew. I would know, I speak Hebrew.
Is this how you avoid my comments? Deflecting?
Ben
Your comments were addressed thoroughly by Jaco . My statements were relative to my question which you have not answered. Maybe you did not understand the question so i will rephrase it.
Was Jesus (Yeshua) ever called YHWH MY RIGHTEOUSNESS in any NT writing ?
Also in that passage you quoted has any of that came to pass ?
Under your claim would Eliyah actually have been EL YAH ?
Jas
Do you even read what you write half the time? I stated that in Rabbinic writing’s the passage in Jeremiah is Messiahnic to the fact that the name YHWH in that same verse was talking about Messiah. Should I slow down for you? Do you even know how Hebrew prophecy is fulfilled? Yeshua became our righteousness, 1Cor.1:30.
Second, The NT Greek translation does not have the name YHWH because it does not translate over. The substitute name is Kurious which can be YHWH, as in the LXX, or can mean master. I can personally read the NT and see where YHWH could be implied to Yeshua directly. But if I want to know if the Messiah is YHWH then I would go to the Hebrew Bible and read for myself and apply it to the NT. This is basic reading for us Jews.
Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Jaco never addressed Jeremiah 23 thoroughly so I don’t know what you were reading.
The name ×ליה or ×ליהו is of course YHWH God or “YHWH is God”. Again this is not relevant to the points in question.
So Nowhere did this prophesy come to pass. Has Judah been saved or has Israel ever dwell in safety . I have no problem with someone being called YHWH MY RIGHTEOUSNESS BECAUSE ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS COME FROM HIM.
Whats to address in Jeremiah 23 other than it was a common practice to have names that made statements about YAH THE LIVING but none of those statements made anyone YAH THE LIVING
“Do you even know how Hebrew prophecy is fulfilled? Yeshua became our righteousness, 1Cor.1:30.”
Ben is your claim that Yeshua is YHWH or became YHWH somehow
Jas
Again, you fail to understand how prophecy can be fulfilled. To us believing Jews we see Israel has a whole being saved, not literally, by Yeshua’s sacrifice and atoning blood as promised. The exiled Northern Kingdom were regathered after the ascension of Yeshua by the apostles, Acts 2:5-11. There are two sides to prophecy in some cases, like Yeshua being Ben Joseph and Ben David, the suffering servant and the king Messiah. Both were and are fulfilled.
Second, Jeremiah is calling the Messiah YHWH by name and as I quoted above. The Messiah is YHWH , one of the powers in heaven.
“Again, you fail to understand how prophecy can be fulfilled. To us believing Jews we see Israel has a whole being saved, not literally, by Yeshua’s sacrifice and atoning blood as promised.”
How can prophesy be fulfilled when a very important statement has not come to pass in any shape or form. Israel has never lived safely .the fact is they have been persecuted constantly since to extinction.
All power comes from the ALL MIGHTY and was delegated many times to many people. Every righteous King was called the Messiah but none ever lived up to it till the one man Jesus, aka Yeshua, Yahshua
If a prophesy has not come to pass as spoken than it was false or you fail to see it is completely still in the future
Jas
“How can prophesy be fulfilled when a very important statement has not come to pass in any shape or form. Israel has never lived safely .the fact is they have been persecuted constantly since to extinction”
Based on who’s interpretation? Yours? Again I have to remind you that Jewish prophecy can have two parts. Did Yeshua come as King and rule over Israel as promised? But yet they called him King. He came as a king but they did not receive him as King Messiah. IF they had received him as King Messiah then peace would have been given to them. Instead they received the curses of the Torah of Moses.
When did a King receive the name YHWH? “Messiah” yes, but YHWH?
Based on who’s interpretation?
Not based upon any interpretation but based upon facts of Present and Past unless you can show me somewhere in history which extends to present and can not change ,you were forced to interpret this passage to fit you ideology which has and will caused a multitude of outcomes to support other ideologies .
Really the fact is how can someone receive a name they already have but then again what you think is a name is only a statement which was very common among OT writings .
Since Jaco addressed your first statement which you danced around and you fail to understand some names make statements I am not sure where this discussion can go. Maybe you can present something other than one passage to try to prove your point if one exist since most others contradict your Ideology
Jas
This is how Western non-Jewish people think. They don’t know the language or the historical Jewish culture so they find ways to misinterpret the Hebrew Bible to their own destruction.
I answered all your questions which you dismiss with your own view of history and Western thinking.
Jaco addressed my statement? He failed then miserably because not one of you addressed the Rabbinic understanding of Messiah being YHWH and called YHWH. NO person can be called YHWH unless he is YHWH, NOT even a KING! Try again though.
Oh I can prove, from the Hebrew, that three powers existed separately as YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures and became known as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the NT. That my friend is easy to do if you know Hebrew.
I could care less about the interpretation of a Rabbi or that of Rabbinical thought which denies everything you believe about the man you call Yeshua. No where has anyone ever been called YHWH but then again that is not even prophesied ,only a statement was prophesied which since all Righteousness comes from the ALL MIGHTY it was true even before the prophecy .
You can not prove to anyone unless first you pollute them with an ideology .
Jaco had no reason to address a Rabbinical understanding, he was showing your flaw in interpreting the verse which he completely schooled you
Jas
You Unitarians are the same, you talk negative about Rabbinic sources that contradict you but you all cite agnostic and atheist scholars to try and prove your false teachings of one person God. Way to funny! Talk about two face.
Then the Hebrew Bible dealers the Messiah as YHWH in Jeremiah and even the Rabbi’s agree and you come along who doesn’t probably even know Hebrew and say they are all wrong too. I use them as a reference to anyone who says that the idea of God being a plural is not Jewish, which is a lie in itself.
Jaco schooled who? He didn’t answer one point from my question or my answer. Please open both eyes when reading.
Correction* “Then the Hebrew Bible declares…”
You treat this one opinion of a Rabbi as fact yet His ideology as a whole denies the very fact that the Messiah has come .
who has cited agnostic and atheist scholars but yourself who used a Rabbi who does not even believe the Jesus of the NT was the Messiah which is stating your GOD DOES NOT Exist as you present him.
For your Info I am a Unitarian with respect of the MOST HIGH and am not Monotheistic because I do see the Spirit Angel of God as a separate power and God working along with and for The Most High . Yeshua had a beginning when he was born of a woman and was given authority when he was proven to be the Messiah by he Perfection. Call him what you want just remember ALL was GIVEN TO HIM which means he was once without it.
Jaco doesn’t deal well with nonsense, he would rather just stick with facts
Jas
One opinion? I have numerous ones just like that one which of course say the same thing.
Oh lets see, most of you Unitarians like to cite Duhn for a source or a scholar. Ask Mr.Buzzard who has cited him numerous times.
So lets see, lets ignore Mose in the Hebrew Bible that calls The Word of the LORD YHWH and also that calls the Messenger of the LORD YHWH too. Moses must be crazy to make such distinctions in the Torah. Three appearances of YHWH and Moses makes clear distinctions between all three who are also called YHWH. How nutty is Moses?
Yes, Jaco, when confronted with truth, runs.
So lets see, lets ignore Mose in the Hebrew Bible that calls The Word of the LORD YHWH and also that calls the Messenger of the LORD YHWH too.”
Ben what belongs to the Most High has his name on it , beings sent in his name with a message speaks with the authority of the author.
I am not a follower of either but for a fact they understand this subject better than you even though they are still off mark.
Jaco just doesnt waste his time with nonsense like yours which even a layman can dismiss
“Ben what belongs to the Most High has his name on it , beings sent in his name with a message speaks with the authority of the author.”
Well sorry to disappoint you but NOWHERE are either one sent. Moses says they were YHWH who appeared. You can twist all you want and say, “oh, they were sent” but the fact remains that Moses said all three were YHWH who appeared to Abraham. Sorry to have to point the truth out to you from the Hebrew.
Jaco apparently can’t read Hebrew either so I would run too if I was face with the truth of the language.
Well none were YHWH because YHWH was in Heaven. But yes they were sent and 2 were even sent to Sodom to see what was going on there for YHWH. NO ONE has ever seen YHWH but many have seen messengers sent in the Name Of YHWH. CAN YHWH SEND PEOPLE IN HIS NAME or can your ideology limit YHWH.
You pick and choose ignoring the multitude of facts and prophecy that completely destroy your ideology.
Your post was just an attempt to bait ,a very weak attempt at that
jas
Hey Jas maybe you should read from the Hebrew. YHWH appeared to Abraham as YHWH, Word YHWH and Messenger YHWH and were all called YHWH by Moses who make the distinction, Genesis 12, 15, 16, 18 and 19.
In fact in Genesis 18:13 YHWH appears and Abraham looks up and sees three men. He goes and bows down and say, “YHWH if I have found grace in your eyes…”.
In 19:17-18 the other two messengers tell Lot where to go and Lot says to THEM, No, please YHWH! Now Behold, your servant has found grace in your sight…” (Literal Hebrew translation). They grant Lot’s request after.
Genesis 19:20 “YHWH (two messenger) rained down fire and brimstone from YHWH out of heaven (YHWH who left Abraham)”
You really should learn the Hebrew for a more accurate interpretation.
Ben I am very aware of these passages and how the Hebrew reads but besides these passages are the rest of the bible which tells us that no human had ever seen YHWH . Actually this passage is the strongest witness that many have came in the name of YHWH because all three came in that name while the YHWH in heaven rained down on Sodom. This would be 3+1 making 4 ,even the YHWH in Heaven could have been delegated by the MOST HIGH and not be actually YHWH. Actually the 3 that appeared to Abraham were called Men . Like I said I have no problem with YHWH sending messages or messengers in His Name because the bible is clear no human had ever seen YHWH till Jesus ascended to his right hand
Jas
These are not the best passages. There are numerous passages like this one. These are the foundational passages for the 3 powers called YHWH Elohim.
No human has ever seen YHWH? If you knew Hebrew then you would know that is not true. Misinformed again. The Hebrew says no such thing about not seeing YHWH. Abraham Isaac and Jacob all saw YHWH Elohim.
3+1=4? Is that your math? YHWH left Abraham, 1. Two Messengers called YHWH were with Lot, so 2+1=3, oh wow.
Please learn the language correctly.
Exodus 33:20 says that God stated, ‘You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!’
Ben since Abraham lived then it was not The Most High he saw as a man
and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Yahweh I was not known to them.
How can we interpret Gen 18,19 considering YHWH says he never appeared to Abraham by that name which it is undoubtedly someone appeared in the Name Of YHWH
How convenient you have the man that stayed with Abraham leave to heaven or else you would have to be a quadritarain
Jas
Sorry but the Hebrew does not say what the English says in Exodus 33 or in Exodus 6. This is why you need to know the language. You are an English only bible reader.
Genesis 12:8, Abraham calls upon the name of YHWH, יהוה. Also in Genesis 15:2 and 18:3, all of them plus others use the name YHWH that Abraham spoke. So you have to decide if the Bible is true or your faulty interpretation is way off. The latter fits best for you.
Exodus 33 does not refer to his face because Moses asked to see his Glory, Kavod in Hebrew. Kavod also translated as “bosom” and “splendor”. YHWH responds with “face”, “paniym” which is also translated as “complete presence” or “whole being”. Moses and no man can know God in that way, only the Son knew him that way because he was with God, John 1:1; 18. To know God that personally is impossible for man unless you are with God from the beginning. That is what the Hebrew says about Exodus 33. Nice try though from your English translation.
Exodus 6:3 from the Hebrew Grammar can also be translated as,
“I appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Shaddai, and by my name Yahweh was I not known to them?” The second way based on the grammar can also be,
“I appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Shaddai. My name is Yahweh. Did I not make myself known to them?”
See why knowing the Hebrew is so important with grammar. This tells you that Abraham saw YHWH in all three forms, YHWH, Word YHWH and Messenger YHWH.
And by the way, it states in Genesis 18:33 that YHWH departed from Abraham, so where did he go if not back to heaven as 19:24 tells you? Abraham saw three men when YHWH APPEARED TO HIM. Sorry but you should really learn Hebrew to understand this.
Ben
I am very aware of translation errors but I have word for word translated these passages. These passages are very clear . The fact is translating them the way you do makes the statement nonsense , absolutely no reason for it being told.
As far as your second claim if YHWH actually appeared to Abraham he could not appear as something he is not, YHWH can not be seen without his glory or complete presence if he actually appeared Abraham would not have lived
Also YHWH does not say WE he says I.
IT is sad when people see one passage to build an ideology on it then forcefully interpret or flat out ignore all other passages that prove it a false ideology.
SHOW ME WHERE IN HEBREW IT SAYS THIS MAN WENT TO HEAVEN. He left because YHWH was thru with him
Jes
Are you kidding? You mean to tell me that YHWH can’t appear to his creation if he wants to? You have God in a box and you better let him out because the Hebrew bible is clear, He appeared to Abraham and you can’t except it because of your man made teaching.
Genesis 19:18 tells you who destroyed Sodom and Gomorra. Can you read? ALL THREE destroyed the cites, ALL three were called YHWH in the Hebrew. You can’t stand when the Bible contradicts your false teaching. The Hebrew is clear.
Jas
I even gave you the grammar of Hebrew which you ignored because it refutes your Unitarianism.
The hebrew flat out states these 3 were men,humans are only called men
Jas
Then why did Moses call them YHWH? Genesis 18:3;13 and 19:17-24?
You forget that we are created in YHWH’s shape and form. What do you think that form and shape is? The Hebrew uses those words to describe forming idols and our offspring. YHWH is in the shape and form of man who he created from the dust of the ground out of the dirt. Pleas learn the language.
Because they were sent in the name of YHWH. God even made a donkey speak once.
God is not a Man who needs nourishment. God can send his spirit to dwell within or on to speak on his behalf
https://books.google.com/books?id=u5hkIwXJVxoC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=Genesis+18:22+angels+or+men&source=bl&ots=QU2HVGeQlC&sig=5rxTT0uQ06S020BW1csNNr-Nq3s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFEQ6AEwB2oVChMI8t6I4NGZxwIViRs-Ch3r7wen#v=onepage&q=Genesis%2018%3A22%20angels%20or%20men&f=false
Jas
Hey Jas, was the donkey ever called YHWH?
What form is his spirit? What does image and likeness mean in Hebrew from Genesis 1:26? Nobody said he was a man like us, but his shape and form is like ours. That is what the Hebrew says.
Your link is a sad piece of work. “Angel” is a Greek term and not part of the Hebrew. You should really look up your sources before using them. The Hebrew is “Malach” and simply means Messenger. All three men were directly called YHWH so you have to deal with that truth. Sorry
Hey Jas, was the donkey ever called YHWH?
Ben different book ,different writer
“Angel†is a Greek term and not part of the Hebrew.
Ben
I do not believe these men were spiritual Angels because they can not be men.These were men who were delegated authority to act as a representative and were given a message to deliver. Could these men had an angel upon them ? yes but makes no difference how the MOST HIGH worked thru these MEN. Equal YHWH’s are not delegated authority or serve as messengers.
No need to be sorry, your just driven by your ideology
Jas
Show me just ONE verse in the Hebrew bible were a person other than YHWH is called YHWH. Not a person sent by YHWH but who is called YHWH directly and yet is not YHWH? Just one please.
An angel upon them? Do you even see how you have to make this stuff up to justify your view? That is not good.
Jas
Go to a lexicon and look up “image” and “likeness” from Genesis 1:26 and see what it tells you about what they mean. That should clear it up for you too. Reject the truth or embrace it, your choice.
Makes no difference if Man (humankind) was made in the image of the Elohim(Plural) , Male and Female
These 3 men were called Men, 2 were called messengers and the first was there to deliver a message to Abraham.
Everytime a trinitarian tries to prove the trinity they always wind up contradicting themselves. You should stick to Mystery because it cant be proven not a mystery.
Somewhere there is a tree with 3 apples on it, use it for proof
Jas
Can you read? It says YHWH appeared to him (Abraham) and he looked up and saw three man. Now which one was YHWH? Moses does not make a distinction between them. Abraham goes and bows down to them as says, “YHWH…”
In verse 5 and 9 they speak as one, “THEY said…”
YHWH asks a question in verse 17 and YHWH answers in verse 20
YHWH stays with Abraham and then leaves after.
Lot calls the two men YHWH in 19:18 after they tell him where to go in verse 17. They give Lot his request and all three as YHWH destroys the cities, verse 24
Genesis 19:29 Elohim (plural) destroyed the cities according to Moses.
Learn the Hebrew correctly.
Can you read? It says YHWH appeared to him (Abraham) and he looked up and saw three man. Now which one was YHWH? Moses does not make a distinction between them. Abraham goes and bows down to them as says, “YHWH…â€
Ben
Then Whoever wrote that passage made the mistake of not saying YHWH’s . None were YHWH but ALL came in the NAME of YHWH with Messages and Commands.
“In verse 5 and 9 they speak as one, “THEY said…â€
Ben same Message
“YHWH asks a question in verse 17 and YHWH answers in verse 20”
As with ALL good messengers they maintained their delegation to speak for he who sent them
“Lot calls the two men YHWH in 19:18 after they tell him where to go in verse 17. ”
LOt recognizes their delegation
“Genesis 19:29 Elohim (plural) destroyed the cities according to Moses.”
Have no problem with plural Elohim.
“Learn the Hebrew correctly.”
Why bother , did not help your ability to comprehend .
The MOST HIGH can not be a man, messenger, angel and be the one that created them
A mistake? That is your answer?
How blind are you? Your nonacademic answers nothing but to the fact that you can’t read and except the truth if it contradicts your false belief.
There is not YHWH’s in Hebrew, that is why Elohim is plural. They all were called YHWH for a reason and not because they were sent by YHWH.
You can’t show one verse that demonstrates this because none exist. This is why not knowing the original language does damage to the Bible.
Delegation? He called THEM YHWH and pleaded with them. How misinformed and blind are you?
YHWH rained fire and brimstone from YHWH out of Heaven, and that does not makes sense unless what I said is correct.
May YHWH Elohim open both your eyes.
Ben
funny thing is you are definitely not a scholar nor a student of comprehensive reading.
It was most definitely interesting to see you twist the scriptures to make 3 YHWH’s ignoring the fact the Most High can not be a man,a messenger,or angel and the fact the Message always carries the NAME OF THE SENDER .
The fact is Most trinitarian scholars deny the very claim you make because their credibility would be jeopardized . They know it is disgraceful to reduce the Father to lesser beings
Jas
Wow, you must now move to Ad Hominem because you can’t discuss the text because you don’t know Hebrew. Whether I am or not is irrelevant to what the text says. This is typical of a one eyed Unitarian who can’t deal with the texts from the language.
If YHWH wants to appear in human form as his creation then so be it and your in a box God is limited according to you.
You never answered one of my question from the language or the Lexicon I told you to look at. Ad Hominem, Ad Hominem, Ad Hominem is all we have now.
Here is a title for your belief, “God in the box” instead of Jack in the Box. That is your conclusion.
Ad Hominem LOL .
Ben it was just an observation from our discussion. You provided the resources for conclusion.
Fact is it was Ad Hominem long before I turned it on you, that is why I chose to school you on comprehensive reading , other than that responding would have been a waste of time or maybe I was just Bored
Jas
How does someone claim to school someone when they can’t even answer the texts from the language or from the grammar? LOL WOW, how ignorant are you? You simply respond with subjected interpretation and no real objective sources or from the Hebrew language. That is a typical laymen who can’t read the text in the language it was written.
To funny, you really make me laugh.
Ben
What you do not understand is my faith in the Creator is not dependent upon him,her being one or 100. What i do have against most trinitarians is they believe they must believe God is 3 or they and all others who dont believe are all going to burn in hell. There is no such command.
I provide a service for egotistic trinitarians ,I engage them when no others will so they can make fools of themselves which you took hook,line and sinker
Jas
The only thing you have shown here is that you don’t know the language of Hebrew and that you are limited in your knowledge of any kind of discussion because of it.
I never said you would burn in hell. I simply stated that the Hebrew allows for 3 appearance of YHWH and that all three in those appearance all are called YHWH. “Image” and “likeness” is what we are to God, shape and form. If they appear then they would look like men in shape and form. YHWH, Word YHWH and Messenger YHWH are all called YHWH by Moses with clear distinction between all three before they appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18.
Also, Abraham in Genesis 20:13 told Abimelech that “Elohim, THEY called me to leave my fathers house.” Who is the THEY? Read Genesis 12;15;16;18;19 for the answer. All three are referred by Abraham.
This is what happens when Unitarians don’t know the language and when it shows they go in attack mode. You have proven this point over and over in this discussion.
This discussion was never about me or my beliefs ,it was about how low you would stoop , how desperate you would become when presented with a few small challenges . I am nobody , I dont claim to know the whole truth. Like I said I provided you the means but it was you that made a fool out of yourself . It was your ego that did you in
Jas
Challenges? I haven’t read one challenge from your responses. I laugh every time I read your posts. In fact you have strengthened my belief even more so. Thank you for that.
You can tell that you are nobody the way you discuss the issues or that you don’t know the whole truth. That is obvious.
Thanks for making my faith stronger with ignorance.
Ben
I came clean on last post and reeled in hook ,line and sinker.
Quit biting
Jas
The only thing you reeled in is empty bait with no substance. Thanks for at least admitting your dishonesty of who you are. That helps to know what type of people are on this blog. You have become the poster child of this blog.
Ben
I never baited the hook ,I let you bait it yourself.
Ego has always been the best bait to catch a fool!!!
Btw Thanks for compliment , No one has called me a child in almost a half century.
Heck maybe everyone here can be named Jas or should i only choose 2 others so there can be 3
Jas
LOL you still can’t read with understanding. You think a poster child means being a literal child? lol This is great!
Ben
I will take it as a compliment anyway . Poster Child had an original meaning before someone misused it
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-texts-genesis19-24.htm
Now to show how Ben made a fool out of himself while making a fool out one of the top trinity proof sites.
They say the man that stayed with Abraham did not go to Heaven but Ben says he did . So Ben has now reduced their YHWH’s to ONE and they increased Ben’s YHWH’s to four.
“Thanks for making my faith stronger with ignorance.”
Dont thank me thank Bible.ca for help in identifying the ignorance
Jas
I am glad to see another graduate of Google University on this blog. I know you can’t read on your own or do your own research with a real book source so congratulations on you PhG.
To bad nobody can actually read the Hebrew to know the truth. Good luck with your degree.
Ben
So now everyone over at Bible.ca are uneducated idiots. Have you mentioned that Monetary gain and fame are the reasons for your ideology.
What sources were so hidden for 1700 years that nobody understood the passage. So many Hebrew scholars thru time not seeing this. .
Good luck pushing your book but the world is full of gullible people so maybe you will sell enough to at least pump your ego a notch and your bank account
Jas PhG
Well Jas PhG, your google research can lead to anything you want. I prefer actually reading the Bible first to see what it says over mans faulty teaching like yours.
And there are many Hebrew Jewish scholars who read the Hebrew who agree with me.
Good with your new PhG degree
Ben
I really prefer reading the Bible , studying the Cultural context of the date it was written around and seeking multitudes of opinions of those that do the same. When i read your book about a month ago I did so as a favor to a friend which when ask my opinion I said ” it is sad what people will do for fame and money”
You came here to test your book but no one other than me would give you the time of day after your 2nd post because of the ridiculous statement you made that unitarians are forced to see things only their way. I was blown away of the coincidence you posted here and that I was able to address a few questions I had about some of your claims.
I noticed you were easily rattled and started attacking so I rattled more to see just what type of person you really are. Hateful would be not doing you justice but I will leave it at that.
I know you must post at least one more time which you will use to exalt yourself by making others look small. But I understand that might be your only option so I will leave that alone.
Name the Hebrew Jewish Scholars
Jas PhG
I must post one more time to exalt myself and then you ask me to post Hebrew Jewish scholars? To funny once again.
Nobody else will respond because they can’t or won’t deal with truth of the Hebrew language I posted, just like you.
Goodluck still on your PhG research.
Jas PhG
You read my book a month ago? Well which book was that? Fame and money? I work for a living and if that is what writing is all about then I guess Sir Anthony must be in that same category and every Unitarian who writes as well. Good one
Ben
I am not a fan of Anthony but ego does play a major role .
Why would someone want to debate with someone who twist the Hebrew language. What purpose would it serve when there are multitudes of unbiased Hebrew Scholars who have already proven you wrong on many accounts. They all are respected which it seems you are not respected by a majority of your peers. OF COURSE THEY MUST BE IDIOTS
BTW You forgot to name Hebrew Scholars you claim agree
Jas PhG
You make claims of twisting the Hebrew but not once have you shown how that is true.
Again more personal attacks like “idiots” when you have nothing intelligent to say.
Go read the Targum of Onkelos for Genesis 19:18 or the commentaries of Ben Melech and Jarchi and his Rabbi’s.
Or the K&D Commentary since you can’t read Hebrew. Good luck PhG
Or go read the Scriptures Bible too on Gen.19:18
Ben
I have never called you an Idiot or anyone one. You think everyone who disagrees with you an ignorant idiot.
You stoop to insults to exalt yourself.
Please provide the list of Hebrew scholars that you have said they agree with you.
I must be scary to you for you devote so much time trying to belittle me
Jas PhG
You should go back up and read your comments about me because you seem to have a short memory of the things you say.
Also can you open your other eye and read the list of above in my last post. If you don’t know them then sorry for you I guess.
Scary? I spend very little time on this. Im that good
“You should go back up and read your comments about me because you seem to have a short memory of the things you say.”
Ben
Reread all the comments not once did I call you a name. Maybe what you see as me calling you an idiot is just a summary of your comments and attitude.
I did not ask for who you received the idea from I ask for the Ones who you said agreed with you.
Jas PhG
Jas, think for a moment. If I got my ideas from those sources and many other Jewish sources then that would mean we all agree together. I know that might be new for you to understand, but think of a moment.
For every ideology there can be a multitude of sources that is why we must test these . There are literally thousands of trnitarian scholars who would jump upon your ideology if it held just the hint of truth or if they thought they could convince people to believe it.
There is a large list of comments here that addressed this thoroughly with your alter ego and cowriter . Some of those post carry the name of the person you want to debate .
Jas
My Ideology? Sorry but it is all Hebrew based and yes there are trinitarians who don’t know Hebrew so wouldn’t understand. Only Hebrew scholars would know what I am talking about.
Your long list doesn’t address anything from the language, just subjected opinion of interpretation like yours.
Ben
There are literally 1000’s of trinitarian hebrew scholars plus 1000’s of non trinitarian hebrew scholars.
Yet you can not produce a consensus of even a few. There is a very good reason for this which can not be they do not understand hebrew.
Surely if your ideology had the hint of the truth you should be able to find even 1% of your peers in agreement.
Yours Ideology is also a subjected opinion driven by the need to prove but using your methods means literally 1000’s of different Ideologies which only need the statement if only one was as smart as me they would see it the way they I do. I hate to burst your bubble but there are 1000’s that as smart or smarter then you who see this as a false IDEOLOGY some even who would love for it true.
“Or go read the Scriptures Bible too on Gen.19:18″
18And Lot said to them, “Oh no, יהוה!
Just how does this agree with you
The translator shows that Lot made a statement or reaction not necessarily addressing the messengers
One other thing is nowhere does it say YHWH appeared to Lot
” 1And the two messengers came to Seá¸om in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Seá¸om. And when Lot saw them, he rose up to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground,
So not really a source at all for 3 YHWH’s just as none of the ones from your book support 3 YHWH’s
Agency is a very prominent action throughout the OT and Probably a very good reason there are 100+ million messengers. So the MOST HIGH can have a direct connection with his Creation. Each and every Appearance they Probably had the Name Of the MOST HIGH written upon them
Jas
I can list you Israeli Hebrew scholars you don’t know that will agree with me. Dr.Danny Ben Gigi is one of many who agree with me on the Hebrew.
Not addressing the Messengers? Are you kidding? Why don’t you read verse 17 with verse 18-19 in its complete context before making a fool of yourself trying to say things that are not true.
The context is Lot being takeN out of the city and the two Messengers tell him where to go and Lot says to THEM,
“No, please YHWH. 19 Behold, YOUR SERVANT has found favor in YOUR SIGHT, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die.”
And then the Messenger grants his request.
Now read verse 24 and verse 29 and stop trying to sound smart about the Hebrew because you aren’t.
Ben
YHWH never appeared to Lot ,no verse has “YHWH said” so why would you think Lot was not just making a statement. This has nothing to do with the Hebrew because you upheld this translators ability to properly translate which they does when they translated the 2 messengers as MASTERS not YHWH.
Do you limited the MOST HIGH’s ability to speak through messengers, human or spirit which is how He did it throughout the OT and through Jesus.
I really dont need to know hebrew to translate using context of verse.passage and bible as a whole .
There are 1000’s of very capable translators which I can seek their opinion of what word should be used, maybe you should try doing this to help with your confusion
Jas
All through chapter 18 you have YHWH who speaks as all three, verses 5 and 9. Those same two men went to Sodom and Lot called THEM YHWH. You can play and twist all you want but that is a fact.
Can you read? It says YHWH appeared to him (Abraham) and he looked up and saw three man. Now which one was YHWH? Moses does not make a distinction between them. Abraham goes and bows down to them as says, “YHWH…â€
Ben
Now using what you uphold as a proper translation of hebrew let us deal now with these verses
1And יהוה appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamrĕ, while he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2So he lifted his eyes and looked, and saw three men standing opposite him. And when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
According to the wording of the translator it says YHWH appeared to Abraham before he lifted his eyes to see 3 men standing. If the appearance of YHWH was these 3 men then he would have saw these 3 men then identified them as YHWH. But this was not the case. Abraham received a vision that signified that YHWH was going to speak to him once again through one of his created beings. This is why Abraham looked up after YHWH appearing to him in his mind. At least one of these messengers was going to speak the words of YHWH which since it was YHWH’s words then when addressing these words would result in a response to the one who sent these words. The Identiy of these messengers played no significance . Your view would be like claiming a telephone was the person the electronic message was coming from.
So now we can keep the rest of the bible true and not translate or interpret it falsely against 99.99% of the Hebrew translators
Jas
All you are doing now is trying to use someone else’s interpretation, namely the Rambam. Can you think for yourself? Now you are using Orthodox Jewish sources that you mocked me for doing? Really?
So why did Abraham go to meet THEM, the three men, and bow down and say “oh YHWH” to THEM? Again, stop twisting the text.
All through out chapter 18 YHWH speaks and even says HE will descend and go down to Sodom, but who goes? The two Messengers who Lot calls YHWH.
You need stop and just except the Bible instead of your own personal bias views.
“All you are doing now is trying to use someone else’s interpretation, namely the Rambam. Can you think for yourself? Now you are using Orthodox Jewish sources that you mocked me for doing? Really?”
Ben
It was your source which you uphold.
Does it represent a proper translation from the hebrew?
You provided a level playing field so now let us debate it.
“So why did Abraham go to meet THEM, the three men, and bow down and say “oh YHWH†to THEM? Again, stop twisting the text.”
Because YHWH’s revealed them to Abraham before he lifted his eyes.
Because they were messengers for/of YHWH ,why would he address him or them any other way. They were the mouth and the ears of the ONE that sent them. Do you not understand the office of a messenger?
How is keeping things in ORDER twisting the text
“All through out chapter 18 YHWH speaks and even says HE will descend and go down to Sodom, but who goes? The two Messengers who Lot calls YHWH.”
Ben
Is it he or them?
YHWH delegates this to the messengers because there had to be conversation with Lot. Lot never calls these 2 messengers YHWH. HE MAKES A STATEMENT. By your source Lot calls them Masters not YHWH.
Nowhere does it state YHWH was in human form , why should he when he has 100+ million messengers who carry the authority of the ONE that sent them and can even make a donkey speak for a messenger . Angel or human these men just represented YHWH
Jas PhG
I never quoted the Rambam as a source. Now that is to funny
Lets see if you can put your glasses on and read.
“Now YHWH APPEARED TO HIM (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, while he (Abraham) was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he (Abraham) lifted up his eyes and looked, behold three men were standing over opposite him. And when he saw, he ran from the tent door to meet THEM and bowed himself to the land and said, ‘YHWH! If now I have found grace in YOUR sight, please do not pass YOUR SERVANT by.’ ”
Lot doesn’t call them YHWH? LOL Well the Hebrew says he does and so does the scripture bible you quoted from. The context of verses 17-19 are clear. Well not clear if you are blinded by your own ignorance of the language, so yes I can see that.
“Or go read the Scriptures Bible too on Gen.19:18”
Ben
Actually the source I am using is the one you claimed agreed with you. Is it your claim it is a bad translation of the hebrew
Now YHWH APPEARED TO HIM (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, while he (Abraham) was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he (Abraham) lifted up his eyes and looked, behold three men were standing over opposite him. And when he saw, he ran from the tent door to meet THEM and bowed himself to the land and said, ‘YHWH! If now I have found grace in YOUR sight, please do not pass YOUR SERVANT by.’ â€
This translation still has YHWH appearing to Abraham before he lifted his eyes to SEE .
Lot calls them Master not YHWH Plus nowhere in this Passage does it even state YHWH SAID
Your only defense is I am not a hebrew scholar but then you provide what you claim is a proper translation which is no different then the one I have used. You may know hebrew but certainly you can not keep things in order or have consistency in your interpretation. You ignore the fact Lot calls them by a human office of master, the passage calls them messengers and men . Like I said there are 1000’s of Hebrew scholars who are trinitarian who would jump on this if it had just a hope of being true.
Jas
You really have to twist it to make it say what you want. Your commentary on the passage is poor. YHWH appears to Abraham and he sees THREE MEN and runs to THEM and says “YHWH…” That my friend all happened after his eyes opened. Very poor interpretation you have. Abraham then has a dialogue with them as YHWH. YHWH says… over and over again while there are sitting.
Lot does not call them “master” at 19:18. And if you want to say he does in 19:2 then I would argue for a bad vowel pointing translation based on 19:18. Simple when you know the language.
Sorry but have talked to numerous Hebrew scholars and they agree with me on Lot calling them YHWH based on the Hebrew. Try again.
Ben
Fact is the order of YHWH appearing and Abraham seeing set this as two different appearances . YHWH then 3 men.
Changing the vowel pointing because these men made a statement similar to OH MY GOD today is just plain ridiculous. The whole chapter never has YHWH said .
Present the names and credentials of these scholars plus yours
Ben
Your whole Ideology rest upon that the MT is faulty in its vowel pointing but even before the MT no one read the passage with your Ideology. Of all the trinitarian writers from 4th century to the time of MT not one commented in support of your Ideology.
You can not see how ridiculous your ideology is when 99.9% of trinitarians scholars would not touch it with a ten foot pole. This is amazing because I have seen some very ridiculous claims out of trinitarian scholars some even more rediculous then yours.
The Most High can use anyone or anything as his vessel ,men,spirits, donkeys ,bushes, etc .
Why did not one of YHWH just go before Pharaoh, bring the laws, lead Israel, be King over Israel. be High Priest. Why did not one of YHWH just be a sacrifice instead of Isaac then rise from the dead to rule.
Your Ideolgy makes a mockery of the Plan of God
Jas
Nice try, Abraham called them YHWH and bowed to them.
“oh my God” ? LOL you sound like the JW’s now
Dear old friend JAS,
Hello again.
Perhaps, Dr Ben Shlomo has forgotten or maybe never read with understanding about GOD and why he, YHWH, saved Lot and his two unmarried daughters from destruction.
The meditate context seems to be about Abraham’s love for his nephew lot, the son of his deceased brother Haran.
The big picture context is about GODs first commandment to mankind being obeyed and the genealogy of Jesus Christ.
Timoteo
Nice try, Abraham called them YHWH and bowed to them.
Ben
I was YHWH he was addressing not the men whom YHWH was speaking through. The men messengers identity had absolutely no significance just like ALL other times throughout the Prophets .
If the JW’s can see a truth then thats a good thing
Dear old friend JAS,
Hello again.
Perhaps, Dr Ben Shlomo has forgotten or maybe never read with understanding about GOD and why he, YHWH, saved Lot and his two unmarried daughters from destruction.
The meditate context seems to be about Abraham’s love for his nephew lot, the son of his deceased brother Haran.
The big picture context is about GODs first commandment to mankind being obeyed and the genealogy of Jesus Christ.
Timoteo
Timothy
Yes the bloodline is One of the most important prophecies to the Messiah, without understanding that a human was promised to fulfill this Prophecy, a person can invent almost anything.
Jas
Why don’t you show were we can bow down before men or messengers and ask for grace and tell them we are THIER servant? Show me were this is possible all at once and call THEM YHWH directly. The angel forbids this in Revelation 22:8-9. Sorry but once again the scriptures correct you.
You do interpret like the JW’s do when trying to reinterpret a text rather then just submit to it.
TIMOTEO
We are not looking at the big picture of WHY but WHO. Who were those Messengers Lot called YHWH and why if they weren’t YHWH? You can never address a creature by the name YHWH unless they are YHWH. No exception in the Hebrew Bible.
No human is worthy to be a perfect sacrifice unless its God himself who is perfect and sinless. No creature can be
Ben Shlomo,
To start, you are wanting to correct JAS with scripture that has been written for a period after the passion, death, resurrection and ascension of his Lord Jesus Christ, and before his return and the resurrections.
Revelation 22:8,9.
While these verses(being discussed) are for and during Abraham’s sojourn and the obvious purpose is to tell the story about his love and concern to save Lots life for the second time. He even bickers with GOD about not destroying Sodom.
This reallky is about the bloodline of Jesus Christ descending from Abraham’s father and Lots grandfather Terah.
The future was not known to Abraham, nor how important saving Lot and his seed were to GOD.
The scripture have not been written for someone to glory with their knowledge about the Hebrew language.
Someone who can not even spell simple English words.
You write:
were—–for where
THIER—for THEIR
servant–for servants
then—–for than
and:
“No human is worthy to be a perfect sacrifice unless its God himself who is perfect and sinless. No creature can be”
To the contrary! Jesus was the perfect spotless lamb, he is the Passover lamb of GOD sacrificed to redeem mankind from the sin of Adam. Jesus Christ is the second Adam born without a sinful nature. His beginning was at conception by GOD in his mother Mary’s womb.
Melchizedek was King and Priest
Moses was Profit and Priest
Jesus Christ is King and Profit and Priest
Hebrews 4: (KJV)
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Jesus Christ is not YAHWEH, he is the son of YAHWEH
1 Corinthians 15: (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
JAS,
“Yes the bloodline is One of the most important prophecies to the Messiah, without understanding that a human was promised to fulfill this Prophecy, a person can invent almost anything.”
I want to write about why it was important for YAHWEH to save Terah’s seed in Lot. First time when he was captured along with all of Sodom and rescued by uncle Abraham. And second when the angels lead him and his two unmarried daughters to safety.
Genesis 27
27:29 May peoples serve you
and nations bow down to you.
You will be 53 lord 54 over your brothers,
and the sons of your mother will bow down to you. 55
May those who curse you be cursed,
and those who bless you be blessed.â€
Ben
Men have bowed down to men, served these men but above is a Prophesy which shows it was common in this age
Genesis 23
23:7 Abraham got up and bowed down to the local people, 15 the sons of Heth.
12Abraham bowed before the local people
Seems Abraham was accustom to showing respect this way
Ben it was YHWH who was using these men as messengers or vessels so Abraham was addressing YHWH through these men and YHWH was addressing Abraham through these Men
Timothy
Ben has a ideology to protect and a book to sell so nothing we present him would be profitable for him
Write it and send it to Sean
2Sa 9:6
When Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, came to David, he bowed low with his face toward the ground. David said, “Mephibosheth?†He replied, “Yes, at your service.â€
Is King David YHWH
1Ki 1:53
King Solomon sent men to bring him down 1 from the altar. He came and bowed down to King Solomon, and Solomon told him, “Go home.â€
Is King Solomon YHWH
JAS,
Bowing is an Eastern custom, near, mid and far.
In Judo and Jiu Jitsu competition, opponents salute each other with a bow.
Three young Hebrew captives would not bow down to a Babylon idol and were thrown into a fiery furnace for their disobedience.
Bowing is a jester more like our hand shaking custom.
Jas, everything we share here is being read by many other than Sean and Ben Shlomo and Ray.
We are in concert with BOWING and BLOOD LINES.
Are you going to write on the new “Self Defence” thread?
Timothy
I entered this discussion with Ben thinking he was knowledgeable of the Bible but so much of it is unknown to him it makes it very hard. He is not aware of cultural and historical context and the many verses that disprove his ideology. I usually learn at least one thing from a discussion but this one has been very unprofitable.
Yes it is great we agree on many things and I have learn much from you even though we disagree on some things we are both seeking the same thing.
Jas
It’s a shame how you have to twist and add your views into the texts to find support. Nobody in the TaNaKh bowed down and called men for grace or to be their servant while calling them YHWH. You really need help with the language and the grammar.
Timoteo
Sorry but the only way Yeshua was blameless and perfect was because he was YHWH Elohim as the 2nd power in the Godhead.
“It’s a shame how you have to twist and add your views into the texts to find support. ”
Sorry Ben they were just verses that totally made your claim false
“Nobody in the TaNaKh bowed down and called men for grace or to be their servant while calling them YHWH”
Ben
Now that is a fact .YHWH was the giver and receiver of the messages not the name of the vessel used
“You really need help with the language and the grammar.”
Ben you keep claiming that but you are the one who 99.99% of hebrew scholars disagree with.
“Sorry but the only way Yeshua was blameless and perfect was because he was YHWH Elohim as the 2nd power in the Godhead.”
Do you understanding how irrational it is to test someone when it is impossible for them to Fail. How can someone who can not be tempted be tempted . This be like a doctor ordering a pregnancy test to make sure a man is not pregnant .
Ben,
“Sorry but the only way Yeshua was blameless and perfect was because he was YHWH Elohim as the 2nd power in the Godhead.”
Perhaps you are sorry because you are not checking our NT Greek text against OT LXX text. Hebrew does not even have the verb “to be” among other short comings as a language compared to Greek or Aramaic. Having a limited vocabulary, Aramaic is still the richest and the most expressive language of the Semitic group.(G. M. Lamsa)
Jesus was born of a woman and fathered by GOD to be identical to Adams state before the first sin. Jesus is GODs perfect human sacrifice to redeem sin nature man.
At his resurrection, he became Jesus Christ a spiritual man, just as his will become when he returns at the first resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15: (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
“Sorry but the only way Yeshua was blameless and perfect was because he was YHWH Elohim as the 2nd power in the Godhead.”
1 Timothy 2:00(KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Jesus Christ is a human being, a man of the human race.
Elohim is one of YAHWEHs titles.
YAHWEH is GODs name, his personal name and is called the Tetragrammaton. YAHWEH was what ever was needed, is what ever is needed and shall be what ever shall be needed. Past and Present and Future tense.
YAHWEH is monotheism, Shema = “Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one”
YAHWEH is Spirit
YAHWEH is Holy
YAHWEH is Holy Spirit
Jesus is now a resurrected holy spirit human being.
There was no holy trinity in OT times and there is no holy trinity now while waiting for Jesus Christ to return.
The holy trinity was invented by the Holy Roman Empire to captivate.
2 Timothy 2:00()KJV)
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Ben,
What was the original sin?
Jas,
# 375=Wunderbar!
You have created a new urban idiom/figure of speech for those who today hoist the rainbow flag.
Timoteo
Your view is of course from the Greek western perspective. You can look at the Greek all you want but Yeshua was a Jew who spoke and taught in Hebrew. He read the Hebrew bible in the synagogue and that is a fact.
ALL of ancient Judaism debated the Powers in heaven teaching. It was well discussed among the Jews and sages. This is also a fact that even non-trinitarian Jewish scholars admit, see Alan Segal’s work on the subject.
It’s a shame you only quote passages that affirm Yeshua’s humanity but ignore all the passage that support his divinity.
I am Jewish and read the Sages on the subject of Messiah and can say for a fact that they knew and taught that the Messiah is divine and preexisted with YHWH as YHWH Elohim.
The Hebrew bible teaches that three powers in heaven starting from Moses in Genesis 12-20 from the Hebrew. Your English does not translate well to show this teaching. Sorry but you can keep your Greek. But even so, there are numerous Greek scholar like Dr.Wallace who will tell you that Yeshua is God and divine from his own grammar books. You are not well educated enough to even question his position who knows that language better then you.
Good luck with your research but I know the teaching of the Sages and the language it was written in.
“ALL of ancient Judaism debated the Powers in heaven teaching. It was well discussed among the Jews and sages. This is also a fact that even non-trinitarian Jewish scholars admit, see Alan Segal’s work on the subject.”
Ben
While that is true they never equated the powers to be 3 YHWH. Yes many seen a hierarchy in heaven but never did they dissect the Most High .
I believe in the Powers in Heaven and the bible is very clear that the Nations were divided among them while The Most High reserved the creation of Israel . There were also chief princes over Israel and Judah and according to Solomon She Wisdom was the first created of these Powers in Heaven.
Again nowhere in the Hebrew bible has a hint of 3 equal powers only one CREATOR and 100’s of Millions of Powers in Heaven all given it by the Most High the most singular statement in the Hebrew Bible
Ben Shlomo,
I think you missed the wood for the trees. And I think your commitment to trinitarianism prevents you from thinking rationally. But to address your points:
There is no reason to read the ADNI in any other way, for several reasons (which Trinitarianism has minimized or reinterpreted):
1) There is only one YHWH/Adonai. It is therefore prohibited for another to be Adonai
2) The Masoretes pointed the ADNI with a chireq. I know Evangelical apologetic “scholarship” has conjured up a Masoretic Conspiracy Theory at play here. But, as usual, it amounts to special pleading since they have never produced any evidence to support it.
3) Adonai was used as substitutes for the Divine Name by the Sopherim. Ps. 110:1 is not one of those texts. Un-substituted ADNIs were originally read and understood as Adoni, not Adonai.
It does have weight in this matter, precisely since it makes a distinction. The unsubstituted LXX has YHWH in its proper place. A clear distinction between YHWH and kurios mou was therefore be evident. Given the dominant tradition of the time, the second lord would correctly be understood as non-divine. Text and prevailing culture meet each other on the same point.
Adonai does not mean kurios mou. Adoni does. Unless in direct address of emended Psalm texts, Adonai is never translated as kurios mou. So Adoni, as opposed to Adonai is supported by the Greek. I’m afraid the argument is only weak to uninformed minds.
All three of them.
I’m afraid not. We have the ancient texts clearly distinguishing Yahweh speaking to another who is not-Yahweh (distinct identity); this one is a recipient of authority (hardly Yahweh who is All-Sufficient); this authority would be temporary (hardly Yahweh who the Eternal Almighty); and linguistically the person Yahweh addressed was David’s Adoni (my lord, kurios mou) and not Adonai.
And then we have Paul who, in 1 Cor. 15:28ff clearly identifies who Yahweh was, and who the recipient was. Contrary to Trinitarian fabrication that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all three Yahweh, Paul identifies Yahweh to be the Father. Jesus is as distinct from the Father as the ancient recipient of authority was as a being distinct from Yahweh. Unitarianism is deafening here.
I think verse 5 is more a Trinitarian enemy in disguise than an actual friend. And I think your exercise in confirmation bias just highlights your special pleading. Messiah is sitting at the right hand of Power. But Messiah is also a conquering king. Here are texts depict Yahweh at the right hand of humans which does not make them Almighty:
Ps. 16:8 – I have set Yahweh always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Ps. 73:23 – Nevertheless I am continually with you: you have held me by my right hand.
Ps. 121:5 – Yahweh is your shade upon your right hand
Isa. 41:13 – For I, Yahweh your God will hold your right hand, saying to you, Fear not; I will help you
So being at Messiah’s right hand indicates Yahweh’s favour upon him and His accompanying presence wherever Messiah goes.
Verse 5 is furthermore very interesting in that it is one of the Sopheric emendations where Yahweh is depicted in very anthropomorphic terms (the reason for the emendation). Yet, if there ever were a Masoretic Conspiracy, vs. 5 would have been the ideal place to point the ADNI with a chireq yod. Yet, true to their calling, they pointed it with a qamets yod. How could they have missed it? There is a conspiracy, REMEMBER? No, only in your Trinitarian minds.
Your Jeremiah 23 attempt is no proof either. Years ago I sank a troll by the name of Dr. Al Garza, precisely on this point. You might want to read our exchange above.
As the scholarly world moves ahead, the gap between proper scholarship and Evangelical apologetic “scholarship” is growing further apart. But die-hards like yourself do provide some amusement for the rest of us.
Thanks.
Ben,
In # 376 I asked;
“Ben,
What was the original sin?”
Ben,
You say you are a non Christian, Jewish Hebrew person, and so then what
“fact”
do you have that you are a Jew, a DNA descendant of Judah or King David, with a Moabite and Ammonite DNA mix as well or even an Eastern European Ashkenazi Khazar Jew?
We still have a complete geneology of Jesus’s mother Mary which gives his connection to his human brethern.
Adam, the son of GOD, was created by GOD.
Jesus, the son of GOD was conceived by GOD in Marys womb.
As Jas has written:
“375 Jas
“Sorry but the only way Yeshua was blameless and perfect was because he was YHWH Elohim as the 2nd power in the Godhead.â€
Do you understanding how irrational it is to test someone when it is impossible for them to Fail. How can someone who can not be tempted be tempted . This be like a doctor ordering a pregnancy test to make sure a man is not pregnant .
Jesus, as a young man, grew up in Galilee and 11/12ths of his decipals were Galilean and he most probably conversed with then in the Galilean launguage. The earliest NT text are written in the Aramaic launguage and survive today with the few living Christians being targeted by ISIS in Syria and Iraq.
The NT, first written in Estrangelo Aramaic, was then translated into Greek and Latin. Martin Luther, a Latin reading, Holy Roman Catholic priest, used the Stephens Greek NT text for his translation into High German. Following this, English, French and Spanish protestant NT bibles came from the Greek.
Which ever Hebrew scriptures you are using, do not seem to be the same as those Jesus studied, because he was monotheistic and considered it IDOLATRY to have more than one GOD.
If you are not a Christian, would you consider having scriptures opened to your heart for consideration of:
Romans 10: (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
?
Timoteo
“The NT, first written in Estrangelo Aramaic,”
What Jewish source are you getting this from? You are seriously outdated with your information. Let me update you with Hebrew scholar ship in this area.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/bibi-was-right-jesus-spoke-hebrew/
R. Steven Notley, Ph.D. (Hebrew University) is Distinguished Professor of New Testament and Christian Origins, and Director of Graduate Programs in Ancient Judaism and Christian Origins on the New York City Campus of Nyack College.
I am not a Greek Christian believer as the name originates. I am a Messianic Jewish believer in Yeshua, my Jewish Messiah.
Again you fail to understand the historic Jewish position on the Powers in Heaven.
YHWH appears to Abraham as YHWH in Genesis 12
Word YHWH comes to Abraham as YHWH according to Moses in Genesis 15
Messenger YHWH appears to Hagar as YHWH according to Moses again in Genesis 16.
Moses makes a clear distinction between all three by name even though Abraham and Hagar knew them as YHWH.
Abraham is visited by three men who Moses says was YHWH in Genesis 18 and 19.
Abraham tells Abimelech that “THEY, Elohim made me leave my fathers house.” NOT “HE” singular but he used a third person plural verb to describe Elohim from Genesis 12-19. Those are the powers in heaven discussed by the Jews and Yeshua was “Word YHWH” in Genesis 15 according to John in John 1:1 who was made flesh.
Also the early Greek and Latin church for the first 400 years up to Jerome said the NT was written in Hebrew and translated to Greek and other languages.
Ben
Yes you are partially correct but no Jerome does not state the NT was originally in Hebrew. He does state that the book of Matthew was . Hebrew scholarship has found that many books of the NT show sentence structure had to been hebrew first , but not all.
Luke was probably written in Syriac first then Greek adding the first 2 chapters using the Gospel of James. Mark was probably written in Latin since it was requested in writing in Rome after Peter preached about Jesus. John was probably written in Greek using Oral tradition and the Memoirs of the Apostles which was probably in Hebrew , Hebrews was definitely written first in Hebrew then translated to Greek. Romans and Revelation was probably written in Hebrew.
As far as the rest of your post 381 you have absolutely no support what so ever that there were 3 equal powers in heaven nor does the book by Alan Segal which does not even support 2 powers in heaven but does discuss the debates by a few heretical sects of Judaism . Now Dr. Michael Heiser does support 2 powers in heaven but uses faulty sources to prove one was Jesus
Jas
Jerome stated that Paul wrote in Hebrew and his writings were translated into Greek, Lives of Illustrious Men, Book 5. That is most of the NT in Hebrew with Matthews.
Eusebius says Hebrew was written by Paul.
The Talmud talks about the gospels that had the name of God in them, namely YHWH, so they couldn’t burn them.
Jas
Dr Michael Heiser support the Jewish Trinity as he calls it. You are misleading toward him. He is a trinitarian and I guess you know more then him with his faulty sources.
Amazing how people want to pretend they are more educated the others who have studied longer and know the language.
Were did you get your education Jas, if any?
Ben
Yes Jerome thought some of Paul’s writings came from Hebrew which I do not dispute. Yes Paul certainly knew Hebrew but the letters were written to certain churches throughout Asia . According to the gifts of the Holy Spirit Paul had the ability to communicate for the purpose of the Gospel in any language.
Dr Heiser may have become a trinitarian but his book nowhere states or supports the trinity.
As far as your concerned my Education is just that. While knowledge is necessary it is absolutely worthless without intelligence to process it.
So go on thinking PhG but was born with Intelligence to process any knowledge .
Fact is the worldwide web is the most complete library ever known to man I would not be a shame to give credit to it for my knowledge.
And it came to pass when the Lord was come up out of the water, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descended upon him and rested on him and said to him: My Son, in all the prophets was I waiting for thee that thou shouldest come and I might rest in thee. For thou art my rest; thou art my first-begotten Son that reignest for ever. (Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah 4)
Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of my hairs and carry me away on to the great mountain Tabor. (Origen, Commentary on John 2.12.87)
Ben
If you believe Matthew was written in hebrew first as Jerome states and then quotes
HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU STATE YESHUA PRE EXISTED?
HOW COULD THE INDWELLING SPIRIT HAVE BE WAITING FOR HIM TO COME?
IF HE PRE EXISTED THEN SURELY SHE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN WAITING ON HIM.
YESHUA WAS THE FIRST OF ISRAEL TO ENTER THE NEW COVENANT AND HAVE THE SPIRIT COME ONE HIM AND RESIDE . THIS IS HOW JOHN THE BAPTIST KNEW THIS WAS THE MAN WHO WOULD BE THE PROMISED MESSIAH
Jas
Some? No, he said Paul wrote in Hebrew, period. Not some.
Dr.Heiser is a trinitarian and has lectured on the powers in heaven Jewish concept but identifies himself as a trinity believer for a good reason.
Yeah the world wide web is so full of facts and truth, not. Sorry but if you want to be a Google scholar then go for it. Nobody will take you serious though.
Jas
The sages themselves believed in a divine Messiah and one who preexisted. Its in their writings
Genesis 15 with John 1:1 corrects you Jas.
Jas
You know full well that Jerome was trinitarian who believed in Yeshua’s humanity and deity. Nobody’s denying either one. He became flesh, human and that is what the incarnation is all about.
Yeah the world wide web is so full of facts and truth, not. Sorry but if you want to be a Google scholar then go for it. Nobody will take you serious though.
Everything you have knowledge about is accessible on www plus 1000 times your knowledge . I have access to almost every writing ever wrote , almost every lecture , applications, the opinions of almost every jewish scholar, christian scholar but I have not said that was my education. My education was just pure crap which I had to shed after finding it was false.
Michael’s failed logic is his failure to see the greek nt was redacted from quotes out of the greek OT for the purpose of the roman doctrines.
Jas
Yes, everything on the web needs to be filtered but as you can see you are still ignoring facts and trying pretend that the Trinity was never believed by Jews and that is false. Reading Google is not the same as direct contact and face to face discussions for clarity.
Jerome never said, “some of his writing”. He said Paul wrote in Hebrew, period. You just had to add “some” to help your view.
“Michael’s failed logic is his failure to see the greek nt was redacted from quotes out of the greek OT for the purpose of the roman doctrines.”
Are you kidding? Every linguist knows that if you are translating into another language like Hebrew to Greek then you have to use the Greek LXX to get your quotes. You do NOT use Hebrew OT to translate into Greek. You use Greek LXX when translating into that language. See your misunderstanding of how translations work?
Jas
And you still haven’t answered how Genesis 15 can say that, “Word YHWH” is YHWH and John 1:1 has the Word with Elohim and was Elohim. They both connect whether you like it or not.
Ben Shlomo,
You misunderstand the rabbinic motto of the one sent is as the one doing the sending. That is Jewish agency or shlichut. It is perfectly fine for Yahweh’s representative to bear his name (Ex. 23:21).
Michael Heiser is wrong on his Jewish Trinity. Muslims even find a Jewish Mohammad in the OT. A recent podcast with Heiser can be heard at http://www.trinities.organisation.
James McGrath exposed the Two Powers Controversy in his The Only True God as a late development and an overzealous proposal.
Confirmation bias par excellence.
Ben,
Thanks for the link about Jesus and his lingual ability.
Here is one that you, as a Jew, could better explain to us gentile Christians:
http://www.netflix.com/watch/80058343?trackId=14170035&tctx=1%252C0%252C8ce1ce02-4bd4-4bee-9130-c322f7d1ac21-17830163
Jerome never said, “some of his writingâ€. He said Paul wrote in Hebrew, period. You just had to add “some†to help your view.”
Ben
Jerome never elaborates on what he based that upon but recent scholarship has determined Hebrews was a translation from Hebrew.
I am certain that his letters were in a language which was readable by the church it was sent. Aramaic,Greek and Latin were better languages for communication through writing while Hebrew script was more a way of recording and memory aid.
Actually no one should translate using a source other than the one you are translating. This would require a complete understanding of the text through years of having the text read by someone who learned it the same way. This is how the Masorites were able to add vowels to make it a readable language just by knowing the markers.
Michael may be a trinitarian of some sort but never makes the case for 3 equal YHWH nor does he make the case for 2 equal YHWH ,he presents a hierarchy of 2 powers , one being subordinate actually taking commands from the ancient of days who is the Most High. Michael also does not see but 2 YHWH in Gen 18 which would make 4 if he used your 2 in Gen 19.
The first part of John was added by probably Justin who was very favorable to Philo.
As a Unitarian I have no problem with lesser Gods even if they were sent in the name YHWH, or called Word YHWH. THERE IS ONLY ONE MOST HIGH
Ben
What you fail to understand is the difference between Monotheism and Unitarianism. The early debates were over issues with monotheism which denies the existence of other powers in heaven. None of these debates ever divided the Most High aka Ancient Of Days .
Jas
I understand exactly what the sages taught because I read them from the Hebrew they were written in. You have no clue what they really believed or taught. The powers teaching existed and that is what Paul and the Jewish apostles believed in. That is why John 1:1 is connected to Genesis 15 and all the other passages as well. You have no clue from a non-Jewish perspective.
Jerome made it very clear that Paul wrote in Hebrew and his writing were translated into Greek. That is what he said. Stop twisting history. Read it again.
Timoteo
I have problem, as a Jew, with anything labeled “Four Blood Moons” as a title. Not sure what it is about but it doesn’t look any good. Not sure what you want me to view from this.
Is this Western Dispensational teaching?
Ben Shlomo,
It is obvious that you are ignoring my refutations above. But believe me, if I have free time, I will respond to your misdirected comments.
You are no Jew. If you confess as God more than one, you are a polytheist; you are an uncircumcised pagan in Jewish garb who have turned the worship of a Moabite calf into a festival to YHWH. You have merely covered the Gentile trinity with a Hebrew sauce.
John 1 has nothing to do with Genesis 15. John 1 has probably nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. If you appreciated the ancient mystical Jewish traditions you would know that the Prologue involves the possession of Jesus so as to become the spokesperson for Yahweh. It refers to the beginning of Jesus’ ministry.
For what it’s worth, here is an excellent paper by Andrew Perry, whose research supervisor is Loren Stuckenbruck: https://www.academia.edu/3288395/John_1_Jesus_Creator_of_an_old_creation_or_of_a_new_one.
Here is the refutation to your cherished Two Powers idea: https://www.academia.edu/2856579/Two_Powers_and_Early_Jewish_and_Christian_Monotheism
Thanks,
Jaco
Ben,
Yes, I was skeptical too and though the film would be more about astronomy.
However, it is about the Nation of Israel and GODly intervention and so forth.
Being a Jew/Hebrew person, perhaps you might watch the presentation on NETFLIX.
FOUR BLOOD MOONS
http://www.netflix.com/watch/80058343?trackId=14170286&tctx=0%252C2%252Caf4d2d8f-20a4-494b-8c38-1472a49a8fa2-4982555
Ben
I am starting to doubt that you have done the proper research . You used Alan Segal’s works as support for your Ideology which since I had already read his works I knew you just read the title of one of his books then assumed it supported it.
Like I said knowledge is necessary but without intelligence to process it it is just like downloading it to a flashdrive then putting it in your pocket.
You can make claims on your ability to translate hebrew to english but so can your average jew who also speaks english.
Jaco
I don’t have time to school you in ancient Jewish tracts. You have no clue of the Jewish literature or writings of my people. Even now in Israel the truth is coming out by priests like Ariel Cohen Alloro who speak the truth of the Jewish powers/trinity and the Jewish teaching of the virgin birth.
No connection of Genesis 15 and John 1:1? What Hebrew bible are you reading? Moses tells you that Word YHWH is YHWH and John the Jew tells you the Word is Elohim who became flesh. You are so ignorant of our language and teaching that you have to ignore the truth and follow man made doctrine of the Pharisees and the scribes who wanted to make Yeshua a man and only a man. Good luck with that.
Timoteo
Thanks, I will watch tonight and give you my opinion of it next time. You have my interest about it now.
Jas
I never used Alan’s work to support my belief. I stated that even Jewish scholars, like him, admit to the teaching within ancient Judaism of the Powers of Heaven that influenced Christianity and Paul. I read most of his work and you assume to much or can’t read my comments correctly. Segal rejects, of course, the teaching but is honest to say it existed within Judaism. More then I can say for you who like to put it in the 4th century.
Average Jews don’t even know their own Hebrew Bible or what it says so stop sounding foolish please.
Ben Shlomo,
Not only don’t you have time, you don’t seem to have the expertise or the honesty to school me (or anybody for that matter). What comes out of some obscure priest as “truth” has for ages been refuted as falsehood by many groups who were silenced by a murderous Trinitarian Church, and by scholars today. You are falling for feeble-minded superstition.
And no, there is no connection between John 1 and Genesis 15. You have to assume a doctrine fabricated by Jew-haters which have been fed to you as truth. You have merely fixated on it and in your closed-mindedness don’t even allow yourself to read up on proper scholarship.
Here is a great reference of how much the Trinitarian Church has hated you Jews. Indulge yourself in Luther’s Dad Juten und Ihre Leugen..
And remember, you only have yourself to blame for what you believe. 🙂
Till next time.
Ben,
The NT has revealed three types of people:
1) Hebrew/Jew
2) Barbarian/Gentile
And from 1) and 2) those who believe
3) Christian
I was an unbelieving Barbarian Gentile and now am a believing Christian.
There are two types of unbelievers:
1) those who have never heard
= Gr apistia
2) those who have heard but will not be persuaded
= Gr apeithia
Believers:
pistia = heard and believe
peithia = fully persuaded
I have only seen that Jesus is a fully monotheistic, Hebraic, human being. And perhaps one would say that he is a deity living now with a holy spiritual body and now in company with his HOLY SPIRIT GOD and father.
GOD is supreme ruler of the universe. Jesus will rule the Kingdom of GOD on Earth when he returns.
I do not know how my believing differs with yours as a Hebrew route, become, Christian?
The Holy Roman Empire introduced the three god doctrine, which makes those that adhere to that belief IDOLATERS.
The worst of Judea idolatrous resulted in the Hebrew people being led captive to Babylon.
There, Daniel became in-charge of the Magi(the Yazidi), who are being crucified, beheaded and murdered, today, along with the Near Eastern Christians by ISIS.
I do not know, how or why, my believing differs with yours as a Hebrew route, become, Christian?
I ask again? With all your study of the ancient sages and Hebrew writings. Can you explain to us about what was the original sin, committed by the first ADAM.
Just to clarify your claim.
Is it your claim the 3 powers in the jewish trinity are completely equal and are one YHWH but 3 El’s or one Elohim?
Jaco
Well Jaco, there is plenty of Rabbinic literature that makes the connection since one of the names of Messiah in Jewish writing is “דבר” and that just shows your ignorance of our writings.
Targum Onkelos, Jewish Philosopher Philo and Radak to Isaiah 51:4
Sorry to have to show you the truth, lesson is out for today.
Timoteo
There were two classes of Hebrews in ancient times, Jews from the Southern Kingdom of Judea and the Northern Kingdom Israelites who were scattered to the nations. Then the goyim or gentiles who were called the uncircumcised.
The name Christians was introduces much later and was applied to the Greeks from Antioch who came into the faith, Acts 11. The early believers where all Jews and Israelites, see Acts 2:5-11.
The original sin that was committed by man was disobedience of the instructions of God to not take from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This was the first Torah command from God. Sin in ancient Hebrew is a picture of a serpent and a fence. This tells us that the serpent waits to stray Gods people from his teachings and commands.
Is there another question you wanted answered or is this kinda what you were looking for?
Jas
I am only saying what the Hebrew Bible says. YHWH Elohim is made up of one and plural. YHWH means “he exists” and Elohim means, “they are God” with the suffix being used in the third person plural.
Moses introduces only three appearances starting in Genesis 12 to Abraham and moves from there to introduce Word YHWH and Messenger YHWH yet all are called YHWH by name. Then Abraham is introduces to three men and all three, from the Hebrew, are called YHWH again. Lastly Abraham tells Abimelech that “Elohim,THEY made me leave my fathers house.” referring back to Genesis 12;15. Who are the “THEY” since it was only YHWH who appeared and called him?
NOTE: Moses is the only one who uses and introduces the names “Word YHWH” and “Messenger YHWH” in his writings about Abraham. Abraham and even Hagar never call them by those names. They refer to them as YHWH only. Why would Moses do that if they were distinct and separate as YHWH? Why did Moses make a clear distinction between them if they weren’t distinct as YHWH?
Ben
Does orthodox judaism claim Dan 7:9-14 was a reality when the vision came or do they see it as still future ?
When do you place it?
Ben
I understand that Elohim is Plural but to claim it is a plural of 3 is ridiculous . It must be at least 2 and can not be limited. But it can be used to describe one of a type as it is to describe singular gods .
How do you deal with El Elyon because there can only be ONE MOST HIGH GOD plus Duet 32 :8,9
Ben
I notice you failed to answer whether the Jewish trinty has 3 equal persons
Jas
Well, if they are all called YHWH what does that make them Jas?
Jas
Elohim refers to the three men who Moses said appeared to Abraham. Three appearances as recorded by Moses, NOT two.
Jas
I don’t really care what modern Orthodoxy says about TaNaKh. They have twisted the scriptures and reject Yeshua as Messiah to fit there own agenda. They will lie to anyone about who the Messiah really is so the Christians won’t use their own writings against them
Daniel 7 from the sages make it clear that Messiah is the subject and context. Rabbinic literature never has just one view of a passage from scripture. Refer to PaRDeS if you are confused.
Jas
I don’t have a problem with the singular expressions of YHWH, it’s the plural expressions you have to contend with not me. YHWH is “he” and Elohim is “they”. That is what the Hebrew bible teaches.
How do you deal with all the plural expressions of “They” if they are not persons? Third PERSON plural pronouns right?
Ben
So you do not know!!! It is your ideology !!
It is just a legend that Moses wrote Genesis ,facts is it was probably compiled from oral tradition which was probably commissioned by Moses and the elders . It may have involved many scribes. It also could have a later existence..
I am starting to see how you protect your ideology , by ignoring every fact that disputes it.
Jas
Are you kidding? You are trusting in German scholarship for your belief? It has always been maintained in Judaism that Moses wrote the Torah and even Yeshua himself states the same. You are holding to ignorant claims rather than historical facts from the very people who lived it. What a shame
Ben,
I read this as GODs first commandment for then human kind, Adam and Eve:
Genesis 1: (KJV)
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,
**Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,**
and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
After the flood GOD commanded the surviving four males, with seed in themselves:
Genesis 9: (KJV)
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them,
**Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.**
Ben, how can a same sex, married couple:
**be fruitful, and multiply,…..**?
What did Judah’s son Onan do that caused his own death?:
Genesis 38: (KJV)
10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.
And to the contrary, what did Lots two unmarried daughters do:
**to be fruitful, and multiply and replenish the Earth**
Genesis 19: (KJV)
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
Jas
I can now see you are not even a Bible believer if that is your position. You are against the entire ancient belief of Judaism and even Yeshua himself. This is a waste of time if you are holding that positions from Europe.
Timoteo
Do you have a point or a question?
Noah’s sons had wives to multiply with, Genesis 6:18. Your kidding right?
Jas and Timoteo
You both obviously can’t read the Bible if this is your best arguments.
“Ben, how can a same sex, married couple:
**be fruitful, and multiply,…..**?”
This is laughable if when you read Genesis 6:18
And Jas, you can keep your European views all you want. Thanks
Ben,
You may be laughing.
I am laughing, but not at you.
Noahs wife bore him three sons, who in turn each had offspring with their wives.
Shem, the father of Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram
Ham, the father of Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan
Japheth, the father of Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras
You write:
“Your kidding right?”
No I am not kidding.
Today homosexuality is dominating in the Western world.
Is this abomination present in modern day Israel? Are homosexuals executed as written in the law?
The point you missed. Two men married to each other and/or two woman married to each other, can not be fruitful and multiply. They only can masturbate each other.
We, Jas, Jaco and myself are believers and pray GOD forgive you because you do not know what you are doing.
We are believers and followers of our lord Jesus Christ:
Matthew 7: (KJV)
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
2 Timothy 4: (KJV)
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
You, Ben, are not the first Hebrew person I have met, who now thinks they are a higher class Christian.
GOD is no respecter of persons, each Christian receives the same full measure of holy spirit.
Romans 11: (KJV)
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Bob Dylin is one such “Jewish American Entertainer” who became Christian and preformed this Music, “SAVED”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxpIdN6Jwzo
Timoteo
Is that all you got? You speak nonsense about things you never learned correctly because you are dependent on Western commentaries. Yes I am laughing because you think you have it all figured out yet you have never studied were your faith came from, namely us. We know our faith better then you do and you think you understand your English bibles as if that is the language they spoke? Ill stay with the Hebrew Bible.
You say,
“After the flood GOD commanded the surviving four males, with seed in themselves:
Genesis 9: (KJV)
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them,
**Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.**
Ben, how can a same sex, married couple:
**be fruitful, and multiply,…..**?”
So either you can’t read the meaning of God telling them to multiply with their wives or you are just plain ignorant of the Bible. Ill stay with the latter.
Then you write,
“The point you missed. Two men married to each other and/or two woman married to each other, can not be fruitful and multiply. They only can masturbate each other.
“We, Jas, Jaco and myself are believers and pray GOD forgive you because you do not know what you are doing.”
Are you seriously trying to say that no females were present to marry them? Give me you sources for this ridiculous view. Or are you still trying to say something else more ridiculous?
I don’t know what I am doing? Now you have me rolling because I am the only one who understands what our Hebrew bible says between us here.
May Yeshua the true Messiah of Israel open your blinded eyes to his truth and nature.
Also, nice rabbit trail you went to ignore the truth of Yeshua as YHWH Elohim. That usually happens when the other party gets put in a corner with the language so they run a different trail to avoid looking foolish.
Ben
You came here looking for a debate over Gen 18,19 concerning how many YHWH were in the passages. You were shown there were only messengers sent to act on behalf of YHWH in Heaven which Judaism confirmed many years before Jesus. You claim the views of some heretical sages and you then claim Alan Segal’s work supported your views which in fact it demonstrated perfectly that it was heresy . You the tried to use Dr.Heiser as support for your ideology but he does not see 3 YHWH in Gen 18,19.
You ignore questions that are impossible for your ideology to answer. You turn to Ad Hominem to cover up . You used Revelation as a proof that the men in Gen were God ignorant of the many verses that show bowing was a norm in the culture. You have not provide any real scholars that support your 3 YHWH Ideology.
I am sure one day you will find a follower of your Ideology ,every Ideology does.
Ben
Genesis was only a historical record which only brings us to the death of Jacob. Joseph probably commissioned it to be recorded probably in Egyptian Cuneiform .Exodus started where Joseph left off. It is very possible Moses commissioned it to record in Hebrew adding The Name Revealed as the ruling Authority of Israel set up when the MOST HIGH GOD divided the Nations. The Name or statement YHWH was only relevant to the portion of the Nations THE MOST HIGH GOD set aside for Himself.
Jas
Really, messengers can be called YHWH? How ignorant is that! Please explain that foolish logic. And if they can be called YHWH as messengers only then you shouldn’t have a hard time believing the Messiah can also be called YHWH as well. YHWH the name can be applied to anyone representing him. Wow, thanks for confirming Yeshua as YHWH.
Jas, I don’t care about you theory based on modern academics. They are foolish to try to reinterpret history and the belief of the Jews and even Yeshua himself. This explains you ignorance at best.
“Really, messengers can be called YHWH? How ignorant is that!”
Ben
Messengers come in the name of the authority that sent them.
Do you not know the definition of messenger ?
Messengers are how God communicates with his Creation.
Just this simple fact when ignored will lead to all kinds of strange ideologies like yours. A messenger is an agent and can never be the sender or receiver of the message .
Your ideology makes my computer multiple persons even YHWH himslf when I read his spoken words
Ben Shlomo,
A Muslim once told me that there’s one thing worse than ignorance, and that is knowing a little. If you don’t even know that messengers of Yahweh can be called Yahweh, you are ignorant of even the rudimentary aspects of ancient Jewish agency laws.
That’s why you can’t respond to my criticism of your wishful Ps110:1 fabrications.
I’m starting to wonder if it’s still worth it to engage you… Just when I thought there’s a good challenger out there…
Not you.
Ben
Lets turn the page to Exodus 3,4 .Exodus 3 starts out with a Messenger of YHWH appearing to Moses . Every MS of this chapter reads Messenger so what was was Aaron to Moses that made Moses like the God of Gods to Aaron.
It was the ability to have someone else speak as someone else. A very easy concept for Moses to understand because this is how God was speaking to Moses.
I would say that most children understand the definition of messenger and since most scholars are past that age they would know Gen 19 use of Messenger totally rules out the possibility of the being YHWH.
This is why NO trinitarian scholar would use this passage as a proof text, their credibility would crumble . But your need for your ideology to have 3 YHWHs causes a least one truth which is there was only one YHWH that destroyed Sodom
Jas
NEVER outside of Genesis 18 and 19 does a messenger of creation called YHWH unless it is YHWH himself. His name is his alone and no where will you find such nonsense in the Hebrew Bible. Moses tells you who the three YHWH’s are, YHWH, Word YHWH and Messenger YHWH. Moses makes it very clear who these three are, namely YHWH Elohim. Our own Targum tell you who they are and so does many other Jewish literature.
You are really trying to ignore the Hebrew aren’t you.
Also, until you actually learn what we believe in our writings, yes you should really stop this discussion. You really don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to the language or our Sages.
Jas
Why don’t you start from the beginning? Where did Messenger YHWH first appear and who called him by that name?
Lets see how much you think you know with this Hebrew Torah 101 question.
Don’t run away now either.
Jas
*Hint: Genesis 16=Foundation chapter.
See, you always start from the beginning where they first appeared and that will tell you who they are according to Moses. Fundamental learning, try it some time.
“You are really trying to ignore the Hebrew aren’t you.”
Ben
You confirmed that the term used to describe the men in gen 19 was indeed messenger, is there another reading where that term is not used.Never anywhere is a messenger the sender of a message , absolutely against the meaning in any language or culture.
“Why don’t you start from the beginning? Where did Messenger YHWH first appear and who called him by that name?”
LOL there is no such thing as messenger YHWH but there is MESSENGER OF YHWH . A messenger is the Agent of the sender and always carries the NAME of sender.
Do I have to bring a 3rd grader here to explain to you the definition of Messenger?
Ben
This so called messenger yhwh just who is he delivering for .
Jas
Do I have to print the Hebrew for you in this box? This is the problem with you English only Unitarians. There is no “of” in Biblical Hebrew so they add the English “of” for reading. My 6 year old knows this from Hebrew. Shall I have him explain for you too?
The literal Hebrew reads “Messenger YHWH” just like the literal reading for The Word of YHWH is “Word YHWH” with no article and two nouns joined together to form a “construct relationship” in Hebrew.
Lastly, Moses tells you that Messenger YHWH appeared to Hagar as YHWH who she called the El who sees all and lived. Only Moses identifies all three before they appear to Abraham.
Maybe I should have my 6 year old type the rest. Hebrew 101, child play now.
Please have a 6 year old type the rest, I dare say it wont change your intelligence level you have presented here ,might just up it.
Every Hebrew Scholar will translate it messenger of YHWH because messenger yhwh is a subordinate title of a servant to the sender. It is against every use of the word in any language or culture.
Jas
Ignorance must be bliss for you.
EVERY Hebrew scholar? So now you generalize as if you know EVERY Hebrew scholar. That is where you are heading now because I just schooled you on what a “Construct Relationship” is in Hebrew?
Once again, just like “The Word of YHWH” has no article in Hebrew, namely “hey” prefix, or “of” it is, like Messenger YHWH, in the form of a Construct Relationship. Hebrew 101 by REAL Hebrew scholars, maybe the ones you don’t know.
Shall I continue? Or do you need to read a real Hebrew grammar book for reference?
Jas
That is why Moses identifies both Word and Messenger as YHWH in Genesis 15 and 16. Neither Abraham nor Hagar call them by those titles or names. Only Moses calls them by those names to show the distinct difference between them as YHWH.
Presentone real hebrew scholar who translates this in context without “OF”.
So messenger yhwh is subordinate because you are using messenger to describe yhwh if is not Messenger of YHWH.
Word is also Subordinate because YHWH is more than just Word.
SUBORDINATE TO WHO?
Jas
Are you really trying to tell me that both Word and Messenger YHWH are subordinate to YHWH? Or who?
That is not what the Hebrew means in a construct relationship. Go read a grammar book please. You are looking foolish now.
Both are called YHWH by name. You can twist and play all you want with the texts but it wont help you.
Jas
The sages have already declared both as YHWH and you can take it up with them, the real Hebrew speakers and scholars. Good luck
Jas
And here is a question for you too. Are you really saying that it is okay to call the Word and the Messenger by the name of YHWH because they represent him? Is that a yes or a no?
Jas
Also let me help you define what a construct relationship is in Hebrew.
When two nouns come together either by juxtaposition or by means of Maqqef they are in a construct relation to one anther.
A pair of words in the construct state is considered a SINGLE unit.
So even if you want to add the “of” that doesn’t separate them from being a single unit.
This might help you too.
Who is “the Angel of the Lord / God�
When the Old Testament refers to “the angel of the Lord†or “the angel of God,†is it an appearance of God himself, a personal angelic messenger of God?
How did the Bible translate Biblical Hebrew into “the angel of the Lord / God�
A. The Construct Relationship
This question takes one into the grammatical study of the Hebrew noun. During the process of translation, translators take into account how a noun is related to a sentence. In this simplified presentation of Hebrew grammar, a noun has three possible cases, which is a syntactical form that indicates the sense of its relationship to the sentence:
Nominative – a nominative noun is the subject of a verb (i.e. the Father loves Jesus).
Genitive – a genitive noun is the object of a preposition (i.e. the angel of the Lord).
Accusative – an accusative noun is one that is the direct object of a verb (i.e. the Father loves Jesus).
Biblical Hebrew indicates the genitive function of a noun by using a grammatical method called a construct relationship, which is formed by stringing 2-4 nouns together. In the study of “the angel of the Lord,†the first noun is the construct noun, which may or may not have its form altered (a noun’s meaning may be altered slightly by how it is stressed with a change in inflection, spelling, or pronunciation). The second noun is the absolute noun, because it never undergoes any type of form change.
How the construct noun is stressed affects how the relationship to the absolute noun is designated. There are four markers, used in various combinations, which connect the construct noun to the absolute noun. These markers are:
Conjunctive accent – There are 9 conjunctive accent marks that can be seen in the Masoretic text. These marks are found under a word that is connected to the following word.
Maqqef – This word means “binder,†and functions like an English hyphen. It joins two words of a word pair and forms a new word.
Reduction of a vowel – The construct noun is essentially shortened with the loss of a vowel. Biblical Hebrew does not have any vowels; however, the translation of the Bible is based on Masoretic texts, where the scribes of this tradition introduced a system of vowel marks to indicate how the text was to be read.
Specific construct form – this is reference to a certain spelling pattern for the construct noun.
The construct relationship of “the angel of the Lord / God,†is indicated by a combination of a vowel reduction and conjunctive accent. Thus, the Hebrew term for angel (mal’âk) is the construct noun and the Hebrew term for Lord (Yehôvâh) / God (‘elohiym) is the absolute noun.
B. Determining the Definiteness of the Construct Noun
As a rule, the construct noun cannot have a prefixed article such as “aâ€, “anâ€, and “the.†In a construct relationship, the absolute noun defines whether the construct noun is indefinite (“a†or “anâ€) or definite (“theâ€), and a definite noun is indicated by one of three ways: 1) a prefixed definite article, 2) a pronominal suffix, or 3) by a proper name.
Who is “the Angel of the Lord / God�
Because the absolute noun, Lord (Yehôvâh) or God (‘elohiym), is a proper name, it calls for the definite article “theâ€. In all 56 occurrences of the phrase “the angel of the Lord†or “the angel of Godâ€, the nouns are in their proper construct relationship. This means that “the angel of the Lord / God†is not translated as “an angel of the Lord / Godâ€.
Who is the angel of the Lord / God?
In the 56 occurrences of the phrase “the angel of the Lord / Godâ€, several suggest that he is God in human form and other instances where he is distinctly different from God.
The following passages are instances where “the angel of the Lord / God†exhibited capabilities usually associated with God:
Made prophetic promises
The promise to multiply Hagar’s descendents (Gen 16:6-16, 21:17)
Accepted worship
The promise to Manoah’s wife of Sampson (Judg 13:1-25)
Identified himself with God
Stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son Isaac and blessed him (Gen 22:11-18) Appeared in Jacob’s dream (Gen 31:11-13)
Appeared to Moses (Ex 3:2-6)
Israel rebuked for not conquering the Promised Land (Judg 2:1-5)
The selection of Gideon (Judg 6:11-27)
Provides personal provision and protection for Believers Provided food for Elijah (1 Ki 19:5-8)
Made divine appointments Moses (Ex 3:2 – 4:28) Sampson (Judg 13:3-24)
Delivered the nation of Israel
Protection from the Egyptian pursuit (Ex 14:19) Future protection of Jerusalem (Zech 12:8)
A prayer of protection (Ps 35:5-6)
Judged human beings
Ahaziah’s worship of Baal (2 Ki 1:2-15)
Judged nations
The Song of Deborah and Barak and the curse of Meroz (Judg 5:23)
This article is from:
Who is “the Angel of the Lord / God� (page 3) In these instances, “the angel of the Lord†is distinctly different from God:
Balaam’s disobedience of going to the leaders of Moab (Num 22:22-35)
David’s disobedience of a census (2 Sam 24:15-17, 1 Chron 21:15-18)
God’s answer of King Hezekiah’s prayer and judgment of King Sennacherib of Assyria (2 Ki 19:34-35) David’s prayer (Ps 34:7)
Zechariah’s call to repentance (Zech 1:10-20)
In the Old Testament, “the angel of the Lord / God†spoke in the first person as though He were God, had the attributes of God, yet was distinct from God. In consideration of the triune nature of God, is He God the father, Son, or Holy Spirit?
Exodus 33:20 suggests that “the angel of the Lord / God†cannot be God the father since no man can see His face and live.
Examples such as Judges 3:10, Isaiah 11:2, Luke 4:18 indicate that the Holy Spirit is not visible to human beings.
The patriarch Jacob makes the very first mention of the word redeemed and associates the term with the angel within the context of “redemption from all evil†(Gen 48:16).
Hosea 12:3-4 makes it clear that the patriarch Jacob associated the angel with God.
And in only this instance, “the angel of the Lord / God†is not seen as a created angel.
Reference:
1. Baze JM, The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament – Part I in Conservative Online
(www.conservativeonline.org/journals/01_03_journal/1997v1n3_id06.htm), volume 1, number 3 (1997). 2. Baze JM, The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament – Part 2 in Conservative Online
(www.conservativeonline.org/journals/02_04_journal/1998v2n4_id05.htm), volume 2, number 4 (1998).
Jas
Listen, hear it? The bell rang, school is out now.
Heretical Sages
“And here is a question for you too. Are you really saying that it is okay to call the Word and the Messenger by the name of YHWH because they represent him? Is that a yes or a no?”
YES because they are sent as an agent .
You are trying to say there is Messenger YHWH, Word YHWH and YHWH and they are all Gods equal in power.
IS Messenger YHWH always Messenger YHWH?
Is Word YHWH always Word YHWH?
Is Plain YHWH always Plain YHWH?
Did they draw straws to see who got to be who?
Because If I was one of them I would draw for the one which was not subordinate .
I see you can google and copy and paste
I will read this then tell you what i think about it. Very rare thing for there to be something I have not read.
From what I have read so far I am not too sure it supports Your Ideology which would not be the first time you thought it did to learn later it did not.
Ben
Your link is not even a valid website, what kind of a fly by night site was it?
Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that
the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to
all his servants and to all his land the great trials which your eyes have
seen, the signs, and those great wonders. Yet the Lord has not given
you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very
day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have
not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn out on your feet.
You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or similar drink,
that you may know that I am the Lord your God.†(Deut 29:2–6)
Ben
Do not leave out MOSES YHWH
As in many ANE accounts that lack an introductory formula,23 messengers
are not contextually distinguished from the sender in two other
biblical narratives. With no introductory formula, Gen 19:15–26 describes
two envoys who speak as if they were God. This convention seems to be extant,
even by the New Testament (NT) period. Whereas Matt 8:6–9 records
a centurion asking Jesus to heal his servant, it is the centurion’s messengers
who ask Jesus to heal the servant in Luke 7:3–8. These accounts are reconciled
by an awareness of the role of ANE messengers. Whereas Matthew
addresses a Jewish audience that was aware that messengers spoke on
behalf of a person as though the person/sender were present, Luke’s mixed
audience may not have understood this custom. Thus, for Matthew’s Jew-ish audience, the messengers are presented without specifi c mention, as
though the centurion himself speaks to Jesus.24
Jas
First, you don’t know what a construct relation is in Hebrew so you have to ignore that and look foolish.
Second, you admit that The Word and The Messenger can be called YHWH which makes 2 YHWH’s plus the Father equals 3. You are now a trinitarian too. Amen! And Yeshua Jesus can be YHWH too based on your admittance. Good for you Jas!
Third, the site is one of many grammar sites that tell you, the ignorant, what a construct relation is based on “The Messenger of YHWH”.
Fourth, you can’t read based on your desperate attempt to play around with Duet.29
Finally, Moses himself tells you, the foolish, when Messenger YHWH first appeared in the Torah and Moses says he is YHWH who spoke to Hagar and who she calls El who sees all and lived to see him.
Once again I hear school bells ringing, class dismissed Jas.
Believe Moses and stop believing man made doctrine in Unitarianism.
Jas
Oh, and your Genesis 19 commentary lacks any real historical or Biblical credit. The Targumim and the Sages recognized the plurality of YHWH Elohim in both Genesis 18 and 19. Even Abraham himself in Genesis 20 tells Abimelech that “Elohim, THEY made me leave my father house”, Genesis 12. “THEY” referring to YHWH Elohim in all those passages.
In Hebrew we call this the “sefirot” of YHWH. Look it up some time.
I like the way you made the Word and the Messenger of YHWH little YHWH’s who are subordinate to the BIG YHWH, like JW’s who call Jesus a god with a little “g”. To funny Jas.
Ben Shlomo,
Exodus 23:20, 21: “Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name [is] in him.”
Hmmm… You may have missed this one. And there were many more called Elohim in the Bible.
Jas, Timoteo, spare your pearls for someone who’d appreciate them. Shake the dust off your feet. There are more worthy ones than this one.
Ben
There is so much more to a language then Grammar. For instance here in USA we speak English yet across the USA the Language has taken form of the culture it exist in. It even gets worst when we go to other countries that speak it. Even time has changed the structure.
Hebrew is no different. To Understand a writing 2000+ years old you first must understand the cultural context plus the mindset of Author.
I realize that you have learned Hebrew101 which we are all proud of you but there are a few lessons to learn beyond that.
Jaco this man is not the purpose for discussion, I already knew from his arrogance he was set plus he has a book to defend.
This discussion is for those who might come across a Ben who might try to deceive them.
Plus it pushes me to do deeper research.
https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/bbr20a01.pdf
Jaco
Hey Jaco, that verses in Exodus 23 tells you that the Messenger is YHWH because his name “shem” is in him. The Hebrew for “name” means “character/presence”. The very presence and character of YHWH is in him because he is YHWH. All the Messenger of YHWH verses tells you that he is YHWH. From the beginning Moses tells you back in Genesis 16. Man you really need to read better.
Jas
Hebrew 101? LOL Hebrew is my language as a Jew. You really need better comebacks then that. Maybe you should take a Hebrew class from real Hebrew scholars. I can call Dr.Danny Ben Gigi if you like of even Dr.Heiser too. They can school you or I can still teach here if you like.
Jas
Also you article has a lot of holes in it. For example it implies that YHWH was invisible behind the scenes when the text calls the Messenger YHWH directly. He assumes in his paper that the real YHWH was there invisible playing catch up. This is the best Dallas has?
Let me give you real Jewish sources instead of Western nonsense.
“In the Hebrew Bible, G-d is sometimes described in human form. Exod. 23:21 mentions an angel who has the form of a man and who carries with him or represents “the name of G-d.†A human figure on the divine throne is described in Ezekiel I, Daniel 7, and Exodus 24, among other places, and was blended into a consistent picture of a principal mediator figure who, like the angel of HASHEM in Exodus 23, embodied, personified or carried the name of G-d, HASHEM, the tetragrammaton. This figure, elaborated on by Jewish tradition, would become a central metaphor for Christ in Christiantiy.†(Alan F. Segal, Paul the Convert, Yale University Press, pg. 11)
“By the way of Truth this angel they were promised here is the redeeming angel in whom is the Great Name, for in Y-a-h the Eternal is an everlasting Rock. This is [what He meant when] He said, I am the G-d of Beth-el, for this is the custom of the King to dwell in His Palace. He is called mal’ach (angel) because the whole conduct of this world is by that attribute. And our Rabbis have said that this is Mattatron, a name which signifies “the guide of the road†. . . ‘to bring thee into the place which I have prepared, referring to the Sanctuary. . . I will yet mention the Rabbis’ meaning in saying that Mattatron’s name [in the sum of letters-numbers] is even as the Name of his Master. His voice is thus the voice of the living G-d, and it is mandatory upon us to hearken to His voice by the mouth of the prophets. . . he will not pardon your transgression if you rebel against his word, for he who rebels against him, rebels against the Great Name which is in him, and he deserves to be cut off by the attribute of justice.†. . . his voice is the voice of the Supreme One.†(Ramban, Exodus 23, Mishpatim, translated by Rabbi C. Chavel, Shilo Publishing House, pg. 410-411, 413)
“Because of this obedience, G-d exalted Jesus and bestowed on him the “name which is above every name†(Phil 2:9). For a Jew this phrase can only mean that Jesus received the divine name [Yud-Kei-Vav-Kei], the tetragrammaton [HaShem] . . . We have seen that sharing in the divine name is a recurring motif of early Jewish apocalypticism . . . â€
(Alan F. Segal, Paul the Convert, Yale University Press, pg. 62)
“R. Ishmael said: The angel Metatron, Prince of the Divine Presence, the glory of the highest heaven, said to me: At first I sat upon a great throne at the door of the seventh palace, and I judged all the denizens of the heights on the authority of the Holy One, blessed be he. I assigned greatness, royalty, rank, sovereignty, glory, praise, diadem, crown, and honor to all the princes of kingdoms, when I sat in the heavenly court (yeshiva). The princes of the kingdoms stood beside me, to my right and my left, by the authority of the Holy One, blessed be he. But when ‘Aher came to behold the vision of the chariot and set eyes upon me, he was afraid and trembled before me. His soul was alarmed to the point of leaving him because of his fear, dread and terror of me, when he saw me seated upon a throne like a king, with ministering angels standing beside me as servants and all the princes of the kingdoms crowned with crowns surrounding me. The he opened his mouth and said, “There are indeed two powers in heaven!†Immediately a divine voice (bat kol) came out from the presence of the Shekinah and said, Come back to me, apostates sons – apart from ‘Aher!†Then Anapi’el HASHEM, the honored, glorified,beloved, wonderful, terrible and dreadful Prince, came at the command of the Holy One, blessed be he, and struck me with sixty lashes of fire and made me stand to my feet.†(3 Enoch 16:1-5, The Old Testament Pseudipgrapha, pg. 268)
“G-d calls [Enoch-Metatron] HASHEM hakaton, another interpretation of Exod. 23:21 (12.5). The date of these documents is far too late to be of specific guidance for Paul. Whatever the date of Daniel or the earliest son of man traditions, this angelic figure, the figure that the Bible sometimes calls the Kavod or the principal angel of G-d, is pre-Christian and is a factor in Paul’s description of Christ.)†(Paul the Convert, Alan F. Segal, Yale University Press, pg. 51)
Do you want more real Jewish sources?
Ben
Knowledge is a good thing but knowledge without intelligence is dangerous as you have shown so far. Hebrew 101 is the level of expertise that you have shown so far . There is much more needed then grammar to understand a language but I am probably wasting my breath telling you that because you are a god in your own mind and your ideology is your prophetic word .
I am not trying to build a brand, sell a book, exalt myself and certainly was not the one who came here with an ideology without the resources to defend it. You can not even answer simple questions on it .
Your only defense is I don’t know hebrew but where does that leave you with 1000’s that do that have the proper education in the cultural and historical context of the time plus intelligence to process it.
Dr. Heiser has done some great research but his opinion goes the way the wind blows.
A book which is knowledge without intelligence can teach someone hebrew
Ben
Do you not have any reading comprehension .
“mentions an angel who has the form of a man and who carries with him or represents “the name of G-d.â€
What do you think represents means?AGENCY
“he will not pardon your transgression if you rebel against his word, for he who rebels against him, rebels against the Great Name which is in him”
AGENCY AGAIN
“At first I sat upon a great throne at the door of the seventh palace, and I judged all the denizens of the heights on the authority of the Holy One”
AGENCY
Again knowledge without intelligence is dangerous
Jas and Jaco,
What have they done to the Hebrew launguage?
We have a Germanic structure in our English, spoken and written verbs.
past tense
present tense
future tense
YHWH is a noun, being formed, by combining three Hebrew words needed to make our conjugated English verb *TO BE*!
Haya- was (I was, you were)
Hove- is (I am)
Yihiye- will be (I will be, you will be)
Early on here, I offered this link for Dr Ben and he seems to avoid our suggestions for an honest and simple study method, using the internet:
http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/yhvh-is-the-verb-to-be-in-hebrew.1155127/
Seems as well, that some self proclaimed, superior Hebrew, descended Christians, let ego blind their reasoning and avoid the doctrine, reproof and correction.
2 Timothy 4: (kjv)
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
Timothy
YHWH is a statement of the ruling authority over Israel. This is why it was unknown before The Most High God gave it to Moses to Use.
It is the Name that The Most High God reserved Israel under when he divided the Nations among the Sons Of God. It can be used in every aspect of heavenly rulership of Israel.
Jas
Is that only thing you pointed out from all of those? Do you have a reading comprehension problem? The point was that all those sources and more are discussing the identity of Messenger YHWH and it was a back and forth debate. The common theme is that they recognize the name “YHWH” was applied to him and even the “Word” in other sources. You take the position of agent and I take the position of the second power YHWH who is YHWH and part of Elohim, “they are God”
Ben
There is only one context which was they represented or had authority given them by a higher power. They were servants
Timoteo
You have stated nothing new in the name “YHWH”. Except let me enlighten you on another, deeper lever of his name.
The name YHWH is formed by 3 Hebrew letters, the yod, the Hey and the waw. The “yod” and “hey” alone are used to represent the name “YHWH” as well. You see this in Hebrew literature. So if you separate the letters and look at them individually you have the following,
Yod=YHWH
Hey=YHWH
Waw=and
Hey=YHWH
You see three names of YHWH plus the waw which means “and” in Hebrew. That is what the name also represents.
YHWH-“He exists” and YHWH, YHWH And YHWH.
The three who are one in unity.
Jas
The name wasn’t know before Moses? Go read the Hebrew if you can. Abraham used the name and before him Eve used it as well. What is wrong with you? And don’t point to Exodus 6 to try and say God said so. That is not what the Hebrew says YHWH told Moses.
Timothy
I recall in Ben’s book he said the numerical value of these 4 letters equal 111 which he claims proves the trinity.
Actually the 3 numbers that are in ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN are 100,10,1 . Ben does not understand math either
“The name wasn’t know before Moses? Go read the Hebrew if you can. Abraham used the name and before him Eve used it as well. What is wrong with you? And don’t point to Exodus 6 to try and say God said so. That is not what the Hebrew says YHWH told Moses.”
Ben
Oh I can’t ignore Exodus 6 because it is perfectly clear . YHWH was added for clarity so the Israelites could understand the MOST HIGH GOD was the Authority in these historical accounts.
According to honest hebrew scholars that is what it says
Jas,
I am beginning to wonder if these were trinity Jews:
Acts 9:23 And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Timothy
They were Edomite Jews, synagogue of SATAN , Babylon Mystery . One thing for sure they were not ISRAELITES
Jas
What book are you ready? Are you blind?
I stated the Hebrew letter “Aleph” adds up to 111. I don’t think you have much training in reading.
The first letter is ×=1 next is ל=30 and finally פ=80
Now get your calculator out Jas and add correctly.
Aleph represents 1 plus it adds up to 111. That is the point Jas. Glasses on yet?
Jas
Yes Jas, that is why it is also translated as “By my name was I not known to them?” Rhetorical question in other translation, why? Because you can translate it that way.
That is why when you read Genesis you find the name being used by Eve and Abraham and etc. Man you need to take a Hebrew class.
Timoteo
No, you are just blinded by your own man made doctrine that came much, much later in history.
Ben
It has been a few months but thank you for bringing the ridiculousness of it what ever it came from.
One hundred and eleven is only written 111 but it value is 100+10+1.
The first number represents 100’s
The second number represents 10’s
The third number represents 1’s
But I guess that is just a trinitarian culture trait to not know how to count.
“Yes Jas, that is why it is also translated as “By my name was I not known to them?†Rhetorical question in other translation, why? Because you can translate it that way.”
Ben The Most High God says just what name he appeared to them as then says he appeared by another name? That is just plain stupid .
None of the greatest Hebrew scholars translated that way , not even trinitarian scholars who would use anything as a proof
‘
Jas
What are you talking about? Do you know how ignorant you sound right now?
The Hebrew word “aleph” has a numeric added value of 111 total. Each letter in the Hebrew aleph-bet has a numerical value that can be added together to form a number in value to its word. Wow is all I have to say. This type of numerical Hebrew is done all the time in Judaism. Man, my Jewish colleagues right now are laughing at your comment.
NO Jas you are just plain stupid because there are Hebrew bibles that do translate it that way because the grammar allows for both. The fact remains that you read the name being spoken in Genesis, so is Moses stupid for saying they spoke the name and then God tells him, NO? How dumb are you?
Sorry, I can’t keep talking to people who don’t even know the basic principles of how Hebrew works, even within Judaism itself. It seems Unitarians like to look at things with one eye open and ignore all the rest that contradicts them.
It’s okay though, in Israel the truth is coming out about the Messiah as we speak.
Even the Cohen “Priests” are speaking the truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeXcOC5-VHA
Hey, Ben, you need psychotherapy. And seriously. You are suffering from a serious case of pathological denial. And I’m afraid my bored Unitarian friends above only feed your deception.
That verse in Ex. 23 EXPLICITLY states that someone distinct from Yahweh is called Yahweh. Following the rule of SHLICHUT perfectly, the agent is as good as the one doing the sending. In your indoctrinated mind you ignore this principle and instead reverse-apply the text to suit your Antisemitic Trinity fabrication. God’s name was also placed in Jerusalem – are you going to include Jerusalem in your Trinity fabrication? Of course not, because you are voluntarily deceived and logically inconsistent.
Oh yes, and your silence on Ps 110:1 is deafening. But you’re sick. And that’s the problem.
Jaco
I think your observation is correct. He admitted above he was hearing voices in his head when he said his Jewish colleagues were laughing . I as far as I know he has only one colleague Dr Garza which I am not sure whether that is not an alter ego of Ben or vice versa .
I think for the mental health of Ben we should just ignore him
Thanks Jas. I think there are many more conversations with real scholars from which we all can learn instead.
Looking at these threads it seems nobody can post respectfully without attacking personally. Not a very good discussion as believers.
There are Jews who are both believers and non-believers who understand that within ancient Judaism God appeared as a multi-personal person. Whether you believe in it or not that is a fact.
Everyone is arguing about a simply word like Lord when everyone knows that the word Lord has a diversity of multiple meanings.
Just because someone is called lord in Hebrew without the vowels like Yahweh this means absolutely nothing at all, and everyone is arguing over Hebrew and Greek grammar for nothing.
Everyone knows that everyone in the Biblical scriptures at one time is called and referred to by God and other people by the very same names as God is called and referred to.
This never makes anybody else the creator besides God including Jesus himself because other people are called by the same names and titles of Jesus.
Example eloahim mighty godly and so on, God is called this and so are human beings like Moses and the scribes.
theos Jesus is called this and the Devil and a roman is called this and God almighty is also called this.
lord Abraham is called this and others are called this like Jesus and God almighty himself.
I can go on and on about names and special titles that people claim that only refers to God, when they don’t in reality.
Everyone thinks that God almighty has some secret teachings and Godhead that they have to figure out and then they are superior and know this secret and inform everyone about this hidden Trinity.
God never taught this and the Lord doesn’t have to keep his Godhead a secret from anybody, he’s revealed who he is plainly.
God said that he’s one a single Entity alone and there’s no one with him and there’s nothing like him in the universe and on Earth and in the heavens.
There’s no secret hidden Godhead that everyone has to discover, absolutely none.
The master text says God himself said that he’s absolutely one and didn’t teach the Trinity ever.
No matter who’s named what like Emanuel like Isaiah’ son was whom the verse is speaking about and not Jesus in which Christians put this title on, he’s not God visiting us on Earth and nether is Isaiah son.
No matter is Jesus is called the mighty God other people are called this in the Old Testament also in the plural.
Jesus also quotes to us his master Text on who he really is and who God is, and I quote.
And this is life eternal THAT THEY MAY KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD and know that Jesus was sent by you (as the Messiah)
The Greek says one and only and not Jesus in a Trinity using mono’s in Greek using the singular Thee yourself.
su Greek the actual meaning is — yourself https://biblehub.com/greek/4771.htm
monos Greek meaning only only, solitary, alone (1), just (2), mere (1), merely (2), only (18), only one (1), only thing (1), private (1), themselves* https://biblehub.com/greek/3441.htm
1. an adjective, alone (without a companion);
b. it is joined with its noun to other verbs also, so that what is predicated may be declared to apply to some one person alone (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 131 (124) note):
Jesus is making it clear that God is the only alone one true God.
All other scriptures about Jesus on his identity have to be interpreted using this master text, that is clear and with NO ambiguous statements and is not used as a parable.
So it’s clear Jesus himself said God is the only true God and you are to know he sent me.
To make things even clearer Jesus says this.
Jesus tells Mary that he’s going to my father and your father my God and your God, this totally agrees to the master text and proves Jesus didn’t say he is God.
God says he’s the only true God and Jesus said that he God is the only true God.
There’s nothing to argue fight over and discuss about Gods supposedly secret hidden Trinity, there’s no Trinity.
If the word command speech of God is God and it was along side God with him looking at each other then there’s two Gods and this isn’t what the scriptures teach, God himself said there’s no other God with himself and he’s alone.
If you still believe that this word command thought of God is another God with God, then your interpretation isn’t correct and you will go to Hell for this belief.
Just because if it’s true the word Lord for God and the word lord for King David or some say the Messiah Jesus, this is no different when Moses is eloahim and Abraham is also lord because it would be the same for Abraham the same word without the vowels and if it isn’t this also means nothing, but King David or Jesus has a special title for himself, just like every other prophet.
It doesn’t make Jesus God because it wasn’t taught by God and Jesus said that God is the only true God.
You just didn’t know it existed in the Text in that form.
The Master text is clear from God Almighty himself and Jesus the servant of God, being his prophet and messenger.
Your interpretation of Jesus being God goes against Jesus words himself.
Can someone please send me the Paper that Joseph wrote??? He couldn’t add the link. 🙁
I would love to get the link of the Paper Joseph wrote.
But I would like to add somethings:
If one would indeed read ××“× ×™ in Psalm 110 without punctuation marks (without vowels) and thus read it as Adonai (which is not a name, but a title and could not only mean ‘my lord’ but also ‘my master’) and consider it thus as proof that Yeshua is God. Then this could equally mean, for example, that when the word ××“× ×™ is used for Avraham in Genesis 23:11, or 24:54 this would mean that Avraham is also God. And what to think of ל××“× ×™ which is used to refer to Esau..
I think the most appropriate/fitting translation is the following:
“The LORD said to my masterâ€, and the real question is not how David could call his own descendant (The one who is the Ben of David) God, but how he could call him his master. The answer is because that one is THE Ben of David, i.e. Messiah ben David.
Apparently there are several variations of the verse from John 1:18, but the main difference between the different renderings is the μονογενὴς θεός (monogenes theos, “the only God”) versus ὠμονογενὴς υἱός (ho monogenes huios, “the only son”) part.
If we assumed for a moment that the variation with ‘theos’ is the right one, and monogenes means one of a kind, only or unique, the Greek says: θεὸν οá½Î´Îµá½¶Ï‚ ἑώÏακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὠὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατÏὸς á¼ÎºÎµá¿–νος á¼Î¾Î·Î³Î®ÏƒÎ±Ï„ο.
Word-by-word translation without punctuation would be something like:
god no one has seen at anytime a unique god the [one] being in the bosom of the father he has made known
What I’d like to know is if this sentence can’t be (grammatically restructured or be framed in a different way and) read something like this (with a change in punctuation, and from the idea that monogenes means one of a kind, only or unique): “No one has ever seen God; the only (one) God. The one (being) in the bosom of the Father (OR sitting at his Fathers side) he has made Him known.â€
And if we would assume that huios is the right one: “No one has ever seen God. The only son; the one (being) in the bosom of the Father (OR sitting at his Fathers side), he has made Him known.â€
Note: I’m not asking if these are options theologically, but if they could be grammatically if you look at the original Greek texts and consider that they don’t contain any real punctuation marks.