951753

This Site Is No Longer Active

Check out RESTITUTIO.org for new blog entries and podcasts. Feel free to browse through our content here, but we are no longer adding new posts.


  

I thought I would publish here on KR an excellent paper by Ken Westby.  Ken runs the great One God website www.Godward.org  – also known as “The Association for Christian Development”.  This paper actually just ran as a paid-for full-page ad in “The Journal”.  This is the little newspaper that the Churches of God put out.  And the interesting thing here (some might call it a bold move), is that the Churches of God (off-shoots of the Armstrong World-Wide movement) are decidedly Binitarian (the “God Family” belief).  Ken sent a pdf copy of the entire newspaper (link is here) along with a note saying that his article (on page 19 – and printed here below), was followed up by a 9 PAGE rebuttal in support of the binity belief. I think he may have struck a nerve!

Here’s Ken’s full paper.  I think he presents the clear, logical truth of Scripture quite well.


 

Are We Monotheists?
Or Do We Believe in a Binity or Trinity?

By Ken Westby

 

Do We Have Two Gods? Three Gods? Or Just One God?

Many believe that Jesus is God: in fact, the very God or YHWH (Yahweh) of the Old Testament. Yet we had better consider what the OT God said about himself (as reported in Isaiah 44:6, 24; 45:5-6):

This is what Yahweh says — Israel’s King and Redeemer, Yahweh Almighty: I am the first, I am the last; apart from me there is no God . . . I am Yahweh who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself . . . I am Yahweh, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God . . . There is none besides me.

Obviously, the God of the OT, Yahweh, was not the slightest bit coy or secretive about telling people and nations that he was the one and only true God. He was it — and he believed it was important for people to know that only he was God. From Genesis 1 to Revelation 22, there appears only one supreme uncreated Creator who can be called God. Could that God also be Jesus? How would that work?

If this OT God is Jesus, as many suppose, then we could reasonably expect him to say the same thing about himself in the NT. Why wouldn’t he? Can we find such an unambiguous statement from Jesus: “My name is Jesus and I am God”?

Jesus spoke a lot about God, so in the NT there must be at least one clear statement on what would be the most important essence of his identity: that he is God. One would think such a passage could quickly be found.

What did Jesus say about being God? The God in the OT is quoted hundreds and hundreds of times as God. If Jesus is God he could be expected to be “the same yesterday and today and forever.”

Logically, we would first seek out a quote from Jesus in which he declared he was indeed God. Easy, right? Somewhere in the four Gospels his true identity as God should appear in his own words. Right?

Was he unable to make a plain confession of his true identity as God, the Creator of heaven and earth? If he were God, would that reality not be at the forefront of his Gospel message?

During his ministry Jesus was constantly challenged regarding his authority. Did he ever respond to the frequent challenges thrown at him by simply saying: “I am God, the one and only true God — worship me”? That simple statement would have ended any debate.

Yet Bible scholars and students know no such text exists in the NT. Jesus never uttered anything even close to it. It can’t be found.

Yahweh in the OT didn’t hide his status as the one true God, so why would Jesus hide that he was the Yahweh of Abraham and Israel?

The options to explain the absence of such a revealing NT text are either that (1) Jesus was keeping his true identity as God a major secret for some unknown reason and just pretending to be a human “Son of Man” or (2) He honestly believed he was not God, which explains why we can’t find evidence that he ever claimed otherwise.

Indeed, Jesus spoke a lot about God, but God was always a being other than himself.

Jesus Had a God

Nothing is more important for mankind than to know that “the Lord is One” and to love and worship God with all one’s heart, soul and strength (the famous Shema (literally “hear!”; see Deuteronomy 6:4-5). In fact, Jesus taught that the Shema forever remains the greatest commandment (Matthew 22:37-38).

Notice that he didn’t use the occasion to tell the bright theologian that he himself was the One worthy of such total worship. Instead, we find Jesus always speaking of God as a being other than himself. “Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.”

Jesus identified God as his Father and our Father. After his resurrection he said to Mary Magdalene, “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” (John 20:17).

Paul says Jesus is “the image [visible] of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). Jesus became the visible image bearer of the Holy One. He manifested what a human being bearing the spiritual image of God would be like, how he would love God and love his fellow humans, what he would speak, what he would do.

When you are an “image” of something, you are not the “something.” Jesus is the image of God, in the form of, or in the likeness of, God. Jesus is the unique symbol or manifestation of God, but not God. We are called to follow Jesus in also becoming in the image of God.

Jesus, the Son of Man

Jesus knew who he was and his favorite self-identity title was the Son of Man (Hebrew ben adam). This term was always on the lips of Jesus and always with the definite article (the Son of Man), which indicates that it was a known quantity in his day. In fact, it is a term with strong OT ties including the most famous found in Daniel 7:13-14:

“In my vision at night I looked and there before me was one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power . . .”

Here the “like a son of man” is not used as a title, but a simile to distinguish him from the beasts Daniel is also describing. But this son-of-man-like human is being exalted, glorified and enthroned beside the Ancient of Days. This passage hovers over the entire ministry of Jesus. Daniel 7 and Psalm 2, Psalm 110 and Genesis 3:15 are probably the most important Messianic passages in the OT.

The Gospel writers all use the son of man term in connection with Jesus’ ministry, death and resurrection, and his future prophetical activities. The disciples came to understand toward the end of Jesus’ mission that not only was he a son of man, much like the prophet Ezekiel (whom God addressed as “son of man” 93 times), but that he was THE Son of Man, the archetype, not the type.

Jesus was more than a son-of-man–type prophet, important though that is. He was the prophet whom Moses spoke of: “Yahweh your God will raise up for you a prophet like unto me from among your own brothers” (Deuteronomy 18:15). Jesus was the greatest and final prophet of God’s Torah.

Jesus Enthroned at God’s Right Hand

Jesus saw his Daniel 7 enthronement coming soon when at his trial he said to High Priest Caiaphas and the Jewish leaders, “But from now on [literally henceforth], the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God . . . and coming in the clouds of heaven” (Luke 22:69; Matthew 26:64). Jesus knew who he was. He wasn’t God; he was the Son of Man who was soon going into the presence of God.

Stephen’s martyrdom vision confirms that Jesus’ words to Caiaphas had been fulfilled: “Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man stand at the right hand of God’ ” (Acts 7:55-56).

The prophetic vision of Daniel 7 was fulfilled, with Jesus exalted and enthroned at the right hand of God. Does this make Jesus God?

Clearly not. With what title does Stephen identify Jesus? The same title Daniel used and the same title Jesus chose to summarize his own mission. A title that includes the word “man,” not the word “God.” Could the picture be any clearer?

The disciples put it all together toward the end. They were allowed time to figure things out for themselves, and Jesus wanted it that way. He was content to let his Father slowly open their minds.

In Peter’s famous confession at Caesarea Philippi, he answered the big question that was continually on the disciples’ minds. Jesus asked them directly: “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” Peter answered: “You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God.” Did Peter know that Jesus was the Son of Man, the Son of God, the Messiah? Dead right, he did! Did he confuse Jesus with God? Absolutely not. Did he confess that Jesus was God? Absolutely not.

How did Jesus respond to Peter’s, clear, unambiguous answer? “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven” (Matthew 16:13, 16-17). Jesus affirmed that Peter’s conclusion was in fact the truth from the Heavenly Father himself.

Jesus’ Identity Crystal-Clear

The disciples concluded that Jesus wasn’t just a chosen representative of Adam’s race, a son of man, but was THE Son of Man, the true Adam made in the Image of God. Paul calls the exalted Jesus the Second Adam or Last Adam, the spiritual Adam, “the man from heaven . . . so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven” (1 Corinthians 15:45, 48-49). Jesus is now the man with God in heaven.

Finally, after the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2), the disciples saw all the evidence of Jesus’ life and works congeal together and they understood who he was in the grand cosmic plan of God. Sure, he was Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph and Mary, their friend and teacher, but now they comprehended that Yahweh had chosen Jesus as his firstborn son and unique spokesman to and savior of mankind — God’s supreme Agent and the future King of God’s Realm.

Yahweh knew who Jesus was. At his baptism, “a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased’” (Matthew 3:17). How important is that?

“Father, the time has come, glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, who you have sent” (John 17:1-3).

God is not a trinity of Gods or binity of Gods; he is God alone. Jesus is a man, now glorified, possessing eternal life and ruling the cosmos under God. He has shown the way to God’s pres-ence and life eternal. I join Paul in confessing, “For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live . . . and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ . . . but not everyone knows this” (1 Corinthians 8:6-7).

 

Ken Westby – “The Association for Christian Development” – www.Godward.org

 

87 Responses to “Are We Monotheists? – Or Do We Believe in a Binity or Trinity?”

  1. on 07 Oct 2011 at 8:28 amAngela

    Great article, Ron! Thanks for posting that!

  2. on 07 Oct 2011 at 5:38 pmLORRAINE

    With this article alone it should explain that now one can see that it will be the ‘son of man’ who is YHWH’s elect from the seed of David which is from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob YHWH’s covenant to Sheppard over us in the new kingdom. Jeremiah, 23:vs.5-6 and this is his name whereby he shall be called (YHWH) The Creator’s THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah, 33:vs. l4-16 where Jerusalem shall also be called (YHWH) The Creator’s The Lord Our Righteousness. It will all be one name the new kingdom. Then in the scripture Deut., 18:vs.15 it will as it says in the article raise a Prophet of thy brethren as from’the son of man’ and this is not how jc was born he was not conceived from any ‘son of man’ let alone from the seed of David who was YHWH’s prophet. jc was born from the holy spirit and this is nothing like his brethren were born as described in the nt in mathew. There is no mention of anyone named jc in the OT for as in Isaiah, 62:vs. 1-2, YHWH GOD will not rest or hold His peace until righteousness go forth as brightness as a lamp that burns, and until for all to see the Gentiles and the kings shall see his chosen elect’s righteousness, his chosen elect’s glory, and he shall be called by a new name which the mouth of YHWH GOD shall name. Therefore, the name of the elect will be named at that time this is why there is no name jc in the OT mentioned and the name of the elect has not been called yet by YHWH GOD until the new kingdom of THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS has come. According to the OT when the new kingdom rises the name is to BE CALLED. Praise YHWH GOD.

  3. on 07 Oct 2011 at 6:15 pmLORRAINE

    Also, I agree there is no trinity nor binity it is just one God YHWH GOD The Lord Our Righteousness and his servant the elect which will be called at the time of the new kingdom to come. For as YHWH GOD has said he is the first the last and there is no God before him and that he will not give his glory unto another. Isaiah 43. One other thing if we as the son of man lived forever then YHWH GOD will not be the last only one can be forever that is why in Deut.,32:vs.47 our lives are prolonged by doing the Law. The new kingdom and the life of righteousness will be forever and our Father YHWH GOD is forever. Praise YHWH GOD.

  4. on 10 Oct 2011 at 7:57 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Lorraine,

    A question for you that came to me today….

    The Christian belief is that through Jesus’ sacrifice, we are able to tabernacle with God via the Spirit. The temple no longer serves that purpose and therefore is no longer relevant.

    I think that if I were a Jew who did not accept Jesus as Messiah, I might still find it curious that the temple has been destroyed for nearly 2000 years now, about the same time that this Jesus came with some curious claims of Messiahship. That timing is just a coincidence for you?

  5. on 11 Oct 2011 at 9:22 pmLORRAINE

    Tim, first and foremost I am not a Jew we all know that the word Jew comes from the aberrated term Judah which should be written as Yhwhudah the land of Zion. I am a Hebrew Israelite descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Yaacov or the english term Jacob. Also, the temple you are referring to is not YHWH’s temple you are talking about the temple of Herod the Edomite which was distroyed in 70A.D. Everyone knows that Christianity legally began in the 4th century as prophesied in Daniel chapter 7 when he had the dream about the beast with 10 horns the little horn was representing Augustus Ceasar who initiated his lordship and Christianity in the 2nd century but it was not official until 311cead by Constantine. YHWH’s house the first temple of YHWH GOD was built by Solomon in 1Kings, and the second temple of YHWH GOD was built by the governor Zerrubbabel the Prince the Messiah of Yhwhudah in 522 BCE but was stopped, and the third temple will be built according to Haggi chapter 2. And as you might already know prayer in the so called OT or The Book of Remembrance is no longer within the temple because it has not been built yet so we today are to resort to 2 Chronicles 6 the Solomon Supplications, Hosea 14 preferably 14:vs.2, 1 Kings chapters 8 and 9 and Daniel chapter 6 preferably 6:vs.10 where Daniel kneels down to pray towards the english term Jerusalem to our YHWH GOD with dedication of zeal. I have said in many of my post that as in Malachi, 3:vs.6 YHWH GOD changes not so that this scripture alone confirms that what is in the nt is false and made up. From the first page of matthew that talks about the conception of jc being from the holy spirit and not conceived from the seed of David from Joseph his father this is hollywood no one can be conceived without intercourse with being from the seed of David which is the BRANCH of YHWH and who He says his elect will be from Jeremiah, 33:vs. 14-16. In addition it also says in matthew that a child Immanuel will be born of a so called aberrated virgin which should be written as (almah) meaning a veiled woman or young maiden (married) according to most scholars well this is prophesied in Isaiah 7:vs. 14-16 of one of Isaiah’s children who were all signs given to Isaiah from YHWH GOD that was to be as a sign given to the govener Ahaz so this too dispels the story in matthew from the first page. If you would google YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS to get more from the resources unless you are apprehensive of the truth then study the history given there in the videos and you will confirm for yourself. Oh and one other thing no one had to sacrifice for us at least it is not written anywhere in the Book of Remembrance OT, now don’t you think that is suspicious for YHWH has no secrets Amos, 3:vs.7 none of his prophets nor servants talked about jc and don’t forget He YHWH changes not and also according to Isaiah, 42:vs.8,9 iif something new springs up He will tell us. Praise YHWH GOD He Who Creates.

  6. on 11 Oct 2011 at 9:54 pmRay

    When I read in the Old Testament about God, the Lord, so many times I realize that what is written also applies in truth, to Jesus.

    I suppose this happens because Jesus is the Word of God.

    As I was communicating with a Trinitarian as to who Jesus is as well as what Jesus is to me, he said that Jesus is not God by comparison, but rather is God because he created the heaven and the earth.

    My view is that Jesus created all that is by the spoken word that was revealed to him by God the Father, doing all for the Father (whom we know as God) as the Father was doing all for Jesus, making all things to be under his dominion, unto the glory of the Father himself.

    I began to wonder how it could be (if indeed it could be) that Jesus is not God by comparision but rather is God himself.

    I find no answer to that at this time.

    I found it odd that a man would not accept the truth that Jesus is God by comparison, for he is God by comparison in so many particular and unique ways that it seems endless to me, and while reading the Bible, I have found that I keep finding more ways in which this is so.

    It seemed to me that some men will accept only truth or what they perceive to be true, only if it is their view. If there is truth that comes to them from another, they will often reject it. I suppose they do so because it was not their truth. It was truth that didn’t come from them.

    So it seems to me that some men will not receive truth from another, but will expect others to receive whatever it is that comes from them that they regard to be true.

    I am reminded of something from scripture where someone will set themselves up as if they are God, and a scripture about worshipping the creature (self) more than the creator. I am reminded of verses about idolatry, and verses that speak of what true religion is.

    These things we need to be aware of in our own lives as well for what one man falls into, we ourselves could be tempted with.

    There are many traps, snares, and troubles on our way to heaven that we must avoid, many areas of darkness that we must pass through on our way to our Saviour.

    There have been times in my life that hearing it said that Jesus is God, has been as distasteful to me as hearing about someone who had a sex change operation and is now called a man instead of a woman, a son, rather than a daughter.

    If people are saying that Jesus is God by comparision, I have no trouble with that. That seems to be pure and peaceable to me, so that is where I should be in order to have peace, it seems to me.

    As we live and grow, our views of God will change. If we abide in Christ, our view of God will become more clear, our view of Christ more real for he will make himself known to us in more ways than we have known in the past.

  7. on 11 Oct 2011 at 10:39 pmDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine you said, “the little horn was representing Augustus Ceasar who initiated his lordship and Christianity in the 2nd century but it was not official until 311cead by Constantine.”

    I think someone has been misinforming you. Augustus Caesar is considered to be the first emperor of the Roman Empire, which he ruled alone from 27 BC until his death in 14 AD. He died even before Y’shua began his ministry. He certainly did not initiate Christianity. As I tried to explain to you before, the Romans systematically persecuted the Christians. The first persecution began in 64 A.D. when Emperor Nero blamed the Christians for the burning of Rome.

    They were persecuted right up until the 4th. century.

    You also said, “From the first page of matthew that talks about the conception of jc being from the holy spirit and not conceived from the seed of David from Joseph his father this is hollywood.”

    Not quite Hollywood, more like Greek and Egyptian mythologies. The idea of a virgin birth was well known throughout the Ancient mythologies of the time, and would have been readily accepted (and expected) from these Ancient and superstitious people. I personally have my doubts about the virgin birth. Some of the early Church Fathers (who’s writings have survived) mention that the original books of Matthew of Luke contained no birth narratives.

    It is quite likely that the birth narratives were added later on by people that wanted to show that Y’shua was not a normal human being (like the rest of us). Later on still other people (that wanted to show that Y’shua was not a normal human being) would come up with this idea that he must have been a God Man. Then even later other people came up with this idea of the Trinity. Which is what eventually became the orthodox teachings of the R.C. church, and was carried on later by the Protestant churches that broke away during the Reformation.

    I personally have no problem with anyone that wants to believe that Y’shua was born of a virgin birth. To me it is inconsequential. The most important thing is to love God, and love your neighbor, and try to understand and follow Y’shua’s teachings. We can’t prove conclusively whether or not the birth narratives are authentic or not, so it is futile to argue about it. I personally have my doubts, but I don’t try to force my doubts onto other people.

    You don’t have to believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian. Just like you don’t have to believe that Y’shua is “God the Son” or a “God Man” to be a Christian. Christ’s apostles all went to their deaths testifying that they had seen the risen Christ. They suffered horrible deaths, some were stoned, some were crucified, but they never stopped preaching the good news (or Gospel) of the kingdom of God, and testifying about God’s Messiah, Y’shua, our Lord and King.

    You are right that God doesn’t change. He promised a Messiah, and He sent us a Messiah!!!

    At least that’s the way I see it anywaze. God Bless…

  8. on 11 Oct 2011 at 10:43 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “As we live and grow, our views of God will change. If we abide in Christ, our view of God will become more clear, our view of Christ more real for he will make himself known to us in more ways than we have known in the past.”

    I completely agree with what you are saying. Have a good night and God Bless…

  9. on 11 Oct 2011 at 11:26 pmLORRAINE

    Ray, I respect that you have strong views on jc being god in comparison but with what are you comparing? Where does it say that anywhere please explain? If it is the Old Testament compared to the newt this cannot be so for in the OT YHWH GOD totally makes it known that he does not change. Malachi, 3:vs. 6. The OT does not show us anything about the name jc and it seems odd to me that even the angels have names Gabriel and Michael in the OT so why wasn’t jc mentioned? Many of the prophets all prophesied each other in the OT Daniel 9:vs.2 talked about Jeremiah the prophet it helps to substantiate the truth for me I found it in the scriptures as being said by YHWH so it is not what I regard. I just read the book from Genesis through Malachi and I became illuminated by that alone. Also, I am not in any religion these I do not consider they are all idolatry to me Deut., 4:vs 16-18 it is also prophesied in chapter Deut., 32 that we would begin to worship idols in the future, and the OT is substantiated by this in 1 Kings 18 when people worshipped Ba’al, the same story as jc and this is the history of the Creator YHWH for myself. In this chapter 1 Kings 18 you also have Elijah and Obadiah both prophets to confirm and Obadiah has a book in the OT. I hope and encourage everyone to do what is in their own heart for the decision is theirs and no one else can change that only YHWH GOD can touch the heart of others. He gave us free will but if he wants us to do something you can count on it happening this I have found to occur time and time again in the OT coming true. I realize that the Book of Remembrance has been tampered with to some degree but for it to have been published in over 2000 languages this makes it to be like some kind of amazing phenomenon. Therefore this is all we have but I cannot understand why a nt had to be written do you? I mean the last prophet in the book is Malachi and in Daniel 12:vs.4 ‘this is a great scripture by the way it shows us the far future to the end’ and where YHWH told the angel Gabriel to tell Daniel to stop the words and seal the book so why would an addition be put in the back of that? I just think that’s strangely suspicious but that’s my opinion. Oh, and our Savior is told to us by YHWH GOD in Isaiah 43 YHWH says that He is the only salvation for us and He does not change Malachi 3:vs.6. In Isaiah 42:vs.8 He says that he will give no one His glory and this is what is said before you get to the nt in the back of the book so this is substantiated in my view point. Otherwise if you change that then that is like saying that YHWH GOD is lying or has changed his mind and if that is so show me first where He said or His servant or prophet that this is so for YHWH changes not right? Peace Praise YHWH.

  10. on 12 Oct 2011 at 12:03 amRay

    Lorraine, as you continue in the Word you will find that Jesus does not fall one bit short of God the Father when we compare their character, nature, integrity, holiness, love, and so on.

    Comparing Jesus with all that God is takes one on an interesting journey in the truth.

    You say that God does not change and this is certainly true. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever as the scripture says. (Heb 13:8)

    Jesus has been the subject of the scriptures throughout and yet much about him was not revealed by God in the Old Testament even though so much about him was. We do not find the name Jesus (spelled out as it is here) in the Old Testament but we do find that in the New Testament in our English Bibles.

    When we worship the Lord Jesus we do honor God who gave us his only begotten Son to save us. It’s impossible to speak well of Jesus without giving God praise. We honor God by honoring him whom he sent into this world to save us. It’s not idolatry to honor Christ our Lord and Savior.

    There was a great need to write the New Testament as the New Testament gives us the knowledge of Christ Jesus, the only name given by God unto us whereby we must be saved.

    It was important that a record of his life was made so that we might be saved by the knowledge of him.

    God had his reasons for telling Daniel to seal up his vision. I don’t know what it was, but I do know that it wasn’t so that more books should not be written.

    I believe God shared fully and does share fully with Jesus so many things which do pertain unto glory, but God will not bow to any idol.

    If God were to bow to an idol, would he not be sharing some of his glory or recognition with it? It’s something God will not do. God does not honor idols. Nowhere in scripture do we see God honoring idols. He doesn’t worship his creation as if he would receive any power or glory from it. He knows better and so should we.

    I trust that God honors what is good, pure, true and right. He does honor Jesus for God is good, pure, true and right. He always honors Christ. He will never dishonor him. Isn’t it only right for him to do so?

    Jesus never fell short of all that God gave him to do.

    When I consider all that is that is called God, I take notice of three that stand above all else, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    I believe these shall always stand. They shall stand true, honest, just, pure, and right at all times. They will endure forever. These shall always be holy, in charge, in power, and in glory.

    May the peace of God keep you in Christ Jesus through the knowedge of him.

  11. on 12 Oct 2011 at 12:11 amRay

    Thomas, I don’t know how a man can be a Christian and not believe in the virgin birth.

  12. on 12 Oct 2011 at 1:41 amLORRAINE

    Doubting Thomas, I do not mean to put anything on anyone I am just reading the books of Genesis through Malachi and there is so much that I have learned and I may get a bit overwhelmed and excited with the illumination of the OT it brings me joy. I like when things are substantiated when the dots connect instead of beliefs I want facts. Also just to substantiate YHWH GOD said that in the new kingdom in Jeremiah 23:vs. 1-8 it will be called THE LORD or YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS preferably vs. 5 and 6, and in Jeremiah 33:vs.16 it will be also be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS and in Isaiah 62:vs. 1 and 2 ‘and thou shall be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD YHWH shall name. Now why people want to be told fables and fairy tales is beyond me especially when it comes to the Father the King it brings me to mind about the scripture Malachi, 1:vs. 6-14 when YHWH expresses how he will not accept to be slighted not at all. The persecutions of the Christians was very wrong but so is Isaiah 52:vs.10-15 and chapter 53 which speaks in future tense of YHWH’s servant the future arm of YHWH who has had and still is having as much affliction as the Christians did for many centuries from the times of Egypt in captivity with the Pharaoh unto the time of the ships in read Deut., chapter 28, preferably Deut., 28:vs. 68 until this day the cruelness has not stopped yet and it too is very wrong but because of our transgressions and iniquities this curse was done. It is continuing until we all do what is said in Malachi 3:vs.7-12 and now or soon this is why YHWH will bring a new righteous BRANCH. Well, Peace and Praise YHWH.

  13. on 12 Oct 2011 at 10:21 amLORRAINE

    Ray, you said;

    There was a great need to write the New Testament as the New Testament gives us the knowledge of Christ Jesus, the only name given by God unto us whereby we must be saved.

    Could you show me where was this name given by YHWH GOD in the OT and where does it say we must be saved by this jc in the OT? For the OT is the beginning of the book and the end of it should coincide with the beginning of it. That is how most books movies and other literature formats are done. For YHWH GOD has said in Isaiah 42:vs.9 if anything new comes He will tell us. Also, just as Daniel the expert on visions and dreams did not know why the angel Gabriel said to ‘shut up the words and seal the book to the end’ this meant as you read on the angel tells Daniel that he is not to understand and not to worry for when this time comes he will be at rest in his grave and the time that the angel told the other angel that it will be is times, times and a half that is 2500 years which is the approximated time that religions has been in to play. With this vision that Daniel received the angel was told by YHWH GOD to help Daniel with this one because it was talking about the far future around the end of the 4th century if you calculate the time frame of Christianity Islam and other religious beliefs…This is prophesied in Daniel 11:vs.36-45 and 12:vs. 1-10 is the complete vision of today one can just go ahead and read it.

    As I said I really do respect anyone’s views on their religions and beliefs this is a free choice and decision for all to make for YHWH gave us this freedom and I hope the best for all. But, in Isaiah 2:vs.12 and vs. 18 the proud will have to see for themselves and the idols will be erased says YHWH The King. Read all of Isaiah 2. I will now go on to other post I’m done. Peace, Praise the King YHWH.

  14. on 12 Oct 2011 at 2:42 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray you said,
    “Thomas, I don’t know how a man can be a Christian and not believe in the virgin birth.”

    That is really no different then the Trinitarians who say that a person cannot be a Christian if they don’t believe in the Trinity. To be a Christian means you have to do your best to follow Y’shua’s teachings, and accept him as your Lord, King and Teacher. Understanding who Y’shua was is important, but is secondary to following his teachings, and accepting him as your Lord, King and Teacher.

    The J.W.’s say you must believe that Y’shua was the archangel Michael to attain salvation. The R.C. church says you must accept all of their doctrines and participate in certain rituals (or sacraments) to attain salvation. Some Baptists would say you have to be baptized in a certain way to attain salvation. Most Trinitarians would say that you must believe in the Trinity to attain salvation. Others would say that you must also believe in the virgin birth to attain salvation.

    But, I say none of these things are in reality essential to salvation.

    Psalm 37:27-28,
    “Turn away from evil and do good; so shall you dwell forever.
    (28) For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints.
    They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.”

    To know and understand what God considers evil and good, you just have to look to the teachings of Y’shua, and the 10 Commandments, and the decision reached at the council of Jerusalem, which (I believe) is binding on all the Gentile Christians. Even to this day.

    At least that’s the way I see it anywaze…

  15. on 12 Oct 2011 at 3:02 pmDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine you said,
    “I may get a bit overwhelmed and excited with the illumination of the OT it brings me joy.”

    I’m glad to see you get enjoyment from studying the word of God. This is very good indeed!!! Personally I don’t believe that the disciples would have endured the hardships and oppression they received, including being killed in the most painful of ways, just to promote a false story about the death and resurrection of Y’shua. Why would they make it up??? Why would they be willing to suffer to the point of death to defend a false teaching???

    The only logical explanation is that they truly believed what they said to be true!!!

    I can’t see why anyone would have been willing to suffer and die a painful death, just to promote a false teaching. I’m sorry, but that simply doesn’t make any sense to me…

  16. on 12 Oct 2011 at 3:39 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    DT – just curious how you explain Matt 1:18 and Luke 1:35? I know you don’t accept the gospel of John, but thought you accepted the synoptics.

    FWIW – I don’t see this as a litmus test, I just have not heard of any serious counter to the virgin birth other than a secular argument that miracles don’t happen.

  17. on 12 Oct 2011 at 4:44 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi Tim,
    You are correct that I do study and accept the Synoptics. I just have my doubts about the birth narratives and believe it is possible they could have been added on later by people trying to promote their own agenda. My friend Robert once sent me a link (I wish now that I would have saved it) in which it was quoting some of the early church fathers (who’s writings have survived). Some of them were saying that the original Gospels of Matthew and Luke (which of course they had access to) didn’t have the birth narratives in them.

    Up until this point I had no doubts concerning the virgin birth, but since reading these quotes I am now very skeptical. It does seem strange to me that almost all of the ancient mythologies of the day had stories about virgin births in them, in which these births usually resulted in the birth of a God, or a God Man of some sort.

    Early Christians that believed that Y’shua was God, or a God Man, would have wanted to demonstrate that his birth was not like any other human birth. These people could easily have borrowed this idea from the surrounding cultures of the time. Most Unitarians will agree that various Greek ideas (immortal soul, etc..) were grafted on to early Christianity. It is certainly not impossible that this was just another foreign idea grafted on to early Christianity.

    Since it is impossible to prove for certain if the birth narratives are authentic or not, I do not see any point in arguing about it. I readily admit that I could be wrong. I was just trying to explain to Lorraine that you don’t necessarily have to believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian. The virgin birth seems to be a major stumbling block for her in regards to accepting the N.T. writings. Many atheists will also point out the fact that virgin births resulting in Gods or God Men were common superstitions in ancient times.

    Of course I don’t try to force my doubts on to others. They are just my own personal doubts…

  18. on 12 Oct 2011 at 6:41 pmPositvely G.

    Listen guys lets just be rational here since YHWH The KING created everything the angels the heavens the earth and the waters the creatures etc…and man, and all the plants and vegetation what if. What if YHWH decided that he would make a woman be pregnant just because he can he is the one who Creates all things. What would his chief purpose for doing that be? Since the son of man is of flesh and blood why would’nt he want the child to be born of both the parents? Or, maybe he wanted a child of half breed half human and half spiritual being but for what reason would he even do this? It is apparent that with everyone else in the bible of the OT who were prophets or servants were born from a mother and a father. I guess he became bored you think? I somehow did not see when I read in the OT or didn’t find YHWH The KING as being bored or confused or contrary these he hates so therefore no real explanation can be found for this action of jc’s birth and YHWH The KING always tells us of these kinds of things he did tell everything to his prophets and servants, or possibly it is a secret. In Ezekiel 16 YHWH The KING glorifies while He tells us of our birth as a proud mom and dad does. He says how much He loved us and that we were His, I love that scripture vs. 8 he made a covenant with us and then he said “and thou becamest mine.” OOh I get goose bumps, so I cannot imagine how for such a birth as important as jc’s to not be mentioned in the OT for YHWH The KING surely loved us so it was a time of love for Him. ……Strange

  19. on 12 Oct 2011 at 7:28 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi Positively G.
    Welcome to K.R. the home of the Biblical Unitarians. I can see that you must also be from the YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS group. Are you friends with Lorraine??? You will find a lot of good articles on this site. Of course we all believe that Y’shua was the Messiah promised by God and foretold by Moses and the prophets. I actually believe the birth of Y’shua was mentioned in the O.T.

    Isaiah 9:6-7,
    “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;
    and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
    and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
    Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
    (7) Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end,
    on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it
    with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.
    The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.”

    I believe this child to be born, this son, is none other than Y’shua our Lord and King…

  20. on 12 Oct 2011 at 9:08 pmPositvely G.

    Hello, DT and thank you for your welcome, do you think you could tell me where in the old testament that Moses and any other prophets foretold this coming of Y’shua? In Isaiah 62 the child or I should say the man has not been named as of yet according to Isaiah 62:vs.1,2 where the name shall be called out of the (mouth) of KING YHWH. I also take the word ‘son’ as in the plural tense of the chosen people of YHWH The KING, Exodus 4:vs. 22, 23 as being YHWH’s son and His firstborn. There cannot be two firstborn sons and this is the only time I witnessed the son being mentioned as Israel the chosen people in the old testament. For if you read on down further in Isaiah 62:vs. 5 it says “For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy ‘sons’ marry thee: and as the bride-groom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy KING YHWH rejoice over thee.” Also, there is a convenant between KING YHWH and His chosen son His firstborn; Eze. 16:vs.8. And in the scripture Isaiah 9:vs. 6,7 it mentions David’s throne from which in Jeremiah 23:vs. 5 it says “Behold, the days come, saith KING YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.” This takes to the meaning of raising unto the seed of David and this did not read like that in matthew because there Y’shua was born of a holy spirit not baring the seed of David at all. This will not fulfill the covenant of the most HIGH KING YHWH. But we are all intitled to what we want to acknowledge and go by.

  21. on 13 Oct 2011 at 12:09 amPositvely G.

    Oh, correction; the one who will reign over the new kingdom should be called the Prince of Peace instead of King the book is translated and I overlooked this error so he should be referred to as the Counsellor, or Wonderful but never King. YHWH is the KING.

  22. on 13 Oct 2011 at 2:03 amTim (aka Antioch)

    DT – I would love to read over the evidence about the early fathers disputing Matthew/Luke birth narratives. The main reason I do not completely view the Adam and Eve story as a parable is that Luke 3 runs the lineage of Jesus all the way back to Adam.

    I tend to agree with you on the God/man myths of the Greeks that could easily have been projected into Christianity, however, I do think the virgin birth is important in order to distinguish Jesus from being ‘just a man’. He had to be sinless/obedient whereas we all fall short of that. While all is possible with God, it still makes more sense to me that the birth narrative is correct. If he were like Adam, born without the sinful nature, only then could he navigate this world without sinning. Also, in Mark 6, it seems that Jesus illegitimacy was alluded to (son of Mary, no mention of Joseph).

  23. on 13 Oct 2011 at 9:22 amSarah

    Positively G., you sure sound a lot like Lorraine. Do you happen to know her?

  24. on 13 Oct 2011 at 9:23 amSarah

    In fact your writing style is nearly identical…

  25. on 13 Oct 2011 at 1:26 pmPositvely G.

    Tim, what part of Mary is not of sin she is a daughter of man right?, for after Adam and Eve we are all born in sin to begin with and as you stated Joseph who is supposedly from the line or seed of David is not mentioned as the biological father. But, it sounds like you acknowledge this as a miracle birth and to my knowledge it seems like a birth of secret something that YHWH The King does not do to us if there is something that important you would think He would have mentioned the name of Y’shua somewhere in the Book of Remembrance but it is nowhere in it. And as I’ve said over and over in Isaiah 42:vs. 8,9 YHWH says he tells us of anything new or came to pass. YHWH The King only mentions that He will raise up into the seed of David the one who will reign over the new kingdom He says this through the old testament especially in the book of Isaiah and in the book of Jeremiah and not once has he mentioned the name Y’shua. They only mention His elect, His servant and it is described in Isaiah 9:vs.6,7 it says he will be known as the Prince of Peace, Counselor, and Wonderful it also says Father and the Almighty those two are in error only YHWH The KING can be called that.

  26. on 13 Oct 2011 at 1:37 pmPositvely G.

    Sarah, hello to you and I hope that the writing styles if are identical are acceptable for all to read and comprehend and it is good to meet you. The name Lorraine makes me think of the Nat King Cole’s solo piece called “Sweet Lorraine.” It is an old name. It is also a chamber in the Charlemagne Establishment in Europe the Franks of Rome of the Catholic Church makes it an even older name.

  27. on 13 Oct 2011 at 4:57 pmLORRAINE

    Doubting Thomas, I will have to say that the disciples were also not ever found in the OT if so could you point them out please it would seem that if these most important characters did exist then they should be well known to the prophets in the OT. For Isaiah prophesied Jeremiah some 200 years before he was even born and others in the OT have done this similitude so why didn’t anyone notice the disiples of jc or jc himself in the OT? This seems so out of the ordinary writings of the OT text it just does not miss things like this especially the birth of jc it is not in the OT either and all others were talked about such as the child of Isaiah’s “Immanuel” with his birth as being a sign to Ahaz to warn him of the other two bad governors who went against YHWH GOD. This child was said to have been born of a virgin which that word was a translation in error it should have been “almah” a veiled married maiden or young maiden with a husband. This is one of the bible’s rewritten terms for virgin here it does not mean the same for us as a virgin is suppose to but the wrong word was used. The writers of the nt made these stories up because of their pride and loaftiness and because of political reasons for which Christianity especially in the Catholic sector has always been about finances and position of religion order. I was watching television one day and saw on the news about a new type of Pope that will be brought into the congregation of the Catholic Church and he believes in drinking beer and having a pork chop and his belly was huge and he watches the sports with others in the bars and so on. This is all alright but then I saw him with a fellow member of the church and this man looked tattered, his clothes were so old and his shoes, and right after this the Pope got on the phone to accept a tremendous amount of money from a donation to the Pope and the church someone called to let him know that they really like his style. I think the donation was around in the six figure range what that Pope needs to do is give some of that monies to those poor members of his and help them to pay their bills and mortgages. I’ve always felt that the money like that belongs to the people and the church not the church alone it should be praised unto YHWH GOD then given over to those who need it. Praise YHWH GOD.

  28. on 13 Oct 2011 at 6:09 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    PosG,

    In answer to your reference to Is 42:9, I believe God did give us clues about the miraculous birth. Gen 3:15 – the seed of the woman will crush his head. It does not say seed of the man but of the woman. And of course, Isaiah 9:6 and elsewhere we are told of a messiah.

    I don’t think God needed to explicitly name Jesus as the messiah in the OT. In fact, the name of the messiah is not mentioned anywhere (other than as a title), so the argument that Jesus is not mentioned in the OT would apply to anyone claiming to be messiah regardless of their name.

    Thanks for your responses. I am inspired to go deeper into Isaiah. No OT book is quoted as often in the NT as Isaiah. Also a curious claim from a Mormon site that the book of Mormon is the greatest commentary on Isaiah (it quotes about one third of the verses). I just found that intriguing.

    God bless

  29. on 13 Oct 2011 at 6:39 pmDoubting Thomas

    Tim,
    You said, “DT – I would love to read over the evidence about the early fathers disputing Matthew/Luke birth narratives.”

    Yesterday I sent my friend Robert an email asking him if he still had the link handy so that I could post it for you. Below is a copy of part of the email that he just sent to me today.

    – quote – “Here is the link you were talking about, its much shorter

    http://bnai-el-chai.com/

    here is a direct link to virgin birth

    http://bnai-el-chai.com/pdf/Virgin_Birth.pdf

    – unquote –

    He also gave me another link that is much longer if you are interested…

  30. on 13 Oct 2011 at 8:39 pmDoubting Thomas

    Positively G.
    You asked, “do you think you could tell me where in the old testament that Moses and any other prophets foretold this coming of Y’shua?”

    Moses said in Deuteronomy 18:15-16, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— (16) just as you desired of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die’.”

    Also other prophets talked about the Messiah being a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesse, and David.

    You also said, “In Isaiah 62 the child or I should say the man has not been named as of yet according to Isaiah 62:vs.1,2 where the name shall be called out of the (mouth) of KING YHWH.”

    I think it is clear that the child, or son, talked about in Isaiah 9:6-7 is referring to the coming Messiah (whom I believe is Y’shua). Whereas Isaiah 62:1-2 doesn’t seem to be referring to the Messiah at all.

    “(1) For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not be quiet,
    until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, and her salvation as a burning torch.
    (2) The nations shall see your righteousness, and all the kings your glory,
    and you shall be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will give.”

    It is talking about Zion and about Jerusalem. It says that Zion and Jerusalem shall be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will give.

    You also said, “And in the scripture Isaiah 9:vs. 6,7 it mentions David’s throne from which in Jeremiah 23:vs. 5 it says ‘Behold, the days come, saith KING YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth’.”

    We believe that these verses are describing what will happen when Y’shua returns to earth as mentioned in Matthew 24:30,

    “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

    Of course I realize that you don’t accept the Gospel of Matthew or any of the other N.T. writings, but these are the writings that we study.

    You also said, “this did not read like that in matthew because there Y’shua was born of a holy spirit not baring the seed of David at all.”

    Not all Christians believe that Y’shua had a virgin birth and was conceived of the holy spirit. Although the vast majority obviously do. If you would look back at the discussion (above) between myself, Lorraine, Ray and Tim (aka Antioch) you will see that there are some Christians, including myself, that believe the birth narratives are not authentic and may have been added on to the original Gospels.

    If you are interested in learning more about this, might I suggest you check out the links that I sent to Tim in my above message. I agree with you that we are all entitled to what we want to acknowledge and go by. Different people on this site will disagree with each other about different things, but we all agree that Y’shua is the human Messiah sent by YHWH our Father. No-one on this site believes that Y’shua is or was God, or a God Man, or anything like that.

    May the peace and love of God (“OUR” Father) be with you and with us all…

  31. on 13 Oct 2011 at 9:07 pmDoubting Thomas

    Tim,
    On the first link that I gave you (above) if you scroll down to where it says “Overcoming the Jesus Myth”, you will find a very interesting article. I will copy and paste a portion of it below for you.

    – quote –

    2) The early Jewish followers of Rabbi Joshua ben Joseph (a.k.a. Jesus) were condemned by “the Church” because they denied the divinity and the “virgin birth” of Jesus: “They considered him [Jesus] to be a plain and common man, who was justified only because of his superior virtue, and who was the fruit of the intercourse of Joseph with Mary. In their opinion the observance of the law was altogether necessary, on the ground that they could not be saved by faith in Christ alone but by a corresponding life.” [Hist. Eccl. III, xxvii – Eusebius]

    “Nevertheless, inasmuch as they refused to acknowledge that he pre-existed,
    being God, Word, and Wisdom, they turned aside into the impiety of the former,
    especially when they, like them, endeavored to observe strictly the bodily worship of the law.” [ibid]

    3) During the Christological debates between the second and fourth centuries the church added whole chapters to the New Testament (particularly the first two chapters of Matthew) to establish the “virgin birth;” and words were altered to establish that he was the “son of God.” [See: The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture by Bart Ehrman]

    Does it not seem strange that the “Jerusalem Church” rejected the divinity and the virgin birth while the “Roman Church” established these concepts? Is it Rome where God has placed his name forever, or is it Jerusalem?

    – end quote –

    Well I found it to be very interesting anywaze. Let me know if you want the link to the longer article that Robert sent me…

  32. on 13 Oct 2011 at 9:58 pmDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine,
    You said, “I will have to say that the disciples were also not ever found in the OT.”

    That is true, but the Messiah was prophesied many times. The only difference between you and I is that you (like the Jews) are looking for a Messiah to come at some time in the future. Whereas we believe that the Messiah has already come (some 2,000 years ago), and that he will be returning once again on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory to take over the throne of David (an earthly throne) and rule over us as our Lord and King (of course YHWH is still the ultimate King, even over Y’shua).

    You also said, “…so why didn’t anyone notice the disiples of jc or jc himself in the OT?”

    Throughout the O.T. YHWH promised to send us a Messiah. It is only logical that this Messiah would have had disciples to carry on his message after he was raised from the dead and taken up to heaven. Many people in the O.T. were not prophesied by name before they existed. No-one prophesied about the arrival of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesse, David, etc… Just because someone is not prophesied by name in the O.T. doesn’t mean that this proves that they are just a fictional character that didn’t really exist.

    You also said, “This child was said to have been born of a virgin which that word was a translation in error it should have been “almah” a veiled married maiden or young maiden with a husband.”

    I agree. Like I have repeatedly said, I have serious doubts about the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke and as a result don’t believe in the story about a virgin birth.

    You also said, “I’ve always felt that the money like that belongs to the people and the church not the church alone it should be praised unto YHWH GOD then given over to those who need it.”

    I agree. All of the written records we have about the early (original) Christians was that they were all proud of the fact that they did not own anything. Everything that they owned they shared with each other according to what their needs might be. If they were alive today people would probably refer to them as Communists because of the way they lived. They would sell everything that they owned and give it to the church elders to distribute as they saw fit.

    I think it will be like that once again when Y’shua returns with power and glory…

  33. on 13 Oct 2011 at 11:27 pmPositively G.

    Doubting Thomas, the woman does have the egg for which the seed is planted it was said by YHWH The KING that thy seed her child within the womb would have the same faith for generations to generations to be bittien on the heel by the leviathan the snake which is in the metaphor sense it was really her desire her temptation and as a snake it always bite us. Well, Messiah remember this only means anointed it seems that many christians get hung up on this word when it and christ only means anointed ‘look it up’ and there were many anointed one (s) plural Zerrubbabel the Prince and the Messiah, Cyrus, and an ass to talk to Baalem. Also keep in mind that a ‘belief’ is not objective it breeds room for being a lie or rumor word of mouth. In Jeremiah 23v1-8 and in Jeremiah 33v14-16 it tells us that both the holy land and the one on the throne will be called the same name anyway and that is THE LORD YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Isa. 62v1,2 is about the land of Zion and Jerusalem, Yhwhusalem. As for Jeremiah, Yhuhrimiah 23v5 it should not read King for this title is YHWH’s it is a transliteration for His elect, His servant which is confirmed with Isa.49 where YHWH’s servant His chosen Israel is talking to us just read it, and in Isa. 53v10 it says “the servant shall see his seed” this means when he later realizes who he is and the peace movement has begun now this is something that does not describe Y’shua being at all for he knew who he was all through his childhood of 12 unto adulthood and in Isa.42vs. 17-25, it says “my servant doesn’t see, or hear and has been spoiled” this doesn’t sound like Y’shua neither. No the gospel or the goodspell is too hollywood for me I like to have substantiation, facts and truth to be ojective is the key.

    This is a surprise that christians do not regard the miracle birth many of them that I have talked to do with a passion so for you and the others to not or have some speculation on this is new and is showing that YHWH The KING is spreading his spirit for the time is nearing the day of YHWH and many are wakening as in the last book says, Malachi 3v18 “Then shall you return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth YHWH KING and him that serveth him not.” Thanks for the link but I’m sure that my resources have what’s needed to be ready for the good thing that YHWH is about to do for us all. Another thing I was wondering that by the christian beliefs if Y’shua is the son of GOD then why do christians worship the son and not the Father? YHWH does seem to really be angered by this Malachi 1v5-14. It seems to me that many better wake up soon.

  34. on 13 Oct 2011 at 11:34 pmPositively G.

    I will check out the link I like to be informed on all stand points thanks again.

  35. on 13 Oct 2011 at 11:56 pmPositively G.

    DT, all of them Moses, Abraham, Jacob Yaacov, Jesse, and David were mentioned in the old testament their births were mentioned and whom by they were born to and it was substantiated through the scriptures that followed. Also, I do not know about the Jews but I and many that I know realizes that the one on the throne has already been born as you said in one of your post that Moses in Deut.18v15-16 told the people that YHWH will raise a prophet like him, born of two parents and of the seed of David, and I know that this prophet is already here he has to realize his seed or has realized his seed and the time will begin soon for the new thing to happen. As in Habakkuk 2 and Habakkuk 2v1-5 ‘though it tarry,wait for it because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

  36. on 14 Oct 2011 at 12:05 amLORRAINE

    Doubting Thomas, all of them Moses, Abraham, Jacob Yaacov, Jesse, and David were mentioned in the old testament their births were mentioned and whom by they were born to and it was substantiated through the scriptures that followed. Also, I do not know about the Jews but I and many that I know realizes that the one on the throne has already been born as you said in one of your post that Moses in Deut.18v15-16 told the people that YHWH will raise a prophet like him, born of two parents and of the seed of David, and I know that this prophet is already here he has to realize his seed or has realized his seed and the time will begin soon for the new thing to happen. As in Habakkuk 2 and Habakkuk 2v1-5 ‘though it tarry,wait for it because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Praise YHWH THE KING.

  37. on 14 Oct 2011 at 12:36 amLORRAINE

    DT, Ok the jig is up, I was just having a bit of fun while we work guys but it seems my Positive G has been blocked but DT I wanted to answer you and I can tell that you kind of thought PG was a different person just kidding with you all it was kind of getting monotenous going back and forth about the same thing so I just went for a thrill……..but DT, Doubting Thomas, the woman does have the egg for which the seed is planted and it was said by YHWH The KING that thy seed her child within her womb would have the same faith for generations to generations to be bitten on the heel by the leviathan the snake which is in the metaphor sense it was really her desire her temptation and as a snake it always bite us. Well, Messiah remember this only means anointed it seems that many christians get hung up on this word with it and the word christ they only mean anointed ‘look it up’ and there were many anointed one (s) plural Zerrubbabel the Prince and the Messiah, Cyrus, and an ass to talk to Balaam. Also keep in mind that a ‘belief’ is not objective it breeds room for being a lie or rumor or word of mouth. In Jeremiah 23v1-8 and in Jeremiah 33v14-16 it tells us that both the holy land and the one who will be chosen on the throne will be called the same name anyway and that is THE LORD YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Isa. 62v1,2 is about the land of Zion and Jerusalem, Yhwhusalem. As for Jeremiah, Yhuhrimiah 23v5 it should not read King for this title is YHWH’s it is a transliteration for His elect, His servant which is confirmed with Isa.49 where YHWH’s servant His chosen Israel is talking to us just read it, and in Isa. 53v10 it says “the servant shall see his seed” this means when he later realizes who he is and the peace movement has begun now this is something that does not describe Y’shua being at all for he knew who he was all through his childhood of 12 unto adulthood and in Isa.42vs. 17-25, it says “my servant doesn’t see, or hear and has been spoiled” this doesn’t sound like Y’shua neither. No the gospel
    or the good spell is too holly wood for me I like to have substantiation, facts and truth to be objective is the key.

    This is a surprise that christians do not regard the miracle birth many of them that I have talked to do with a passion so for you and the others to not or have some speculation on this is new and is showing that YHWH The KING is spreading his spirit for the time is nearing the day of YHWH and many are wakening as in the last book says, Malachi 3v18 “Then shall you return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth YHWH KING and him that serveth him not.” Thanks for the link but I’m sure that my resources have what’s needed to be ready for the good thing that YHWH is about to do for us all. Another thing I was wondering that by the christian beliefs if Y’shua is the son of GOD then why do christians worship the son and not the Father? YHWH does seem to really be angered by this Malachi 1v5-14. It seems to me that many better wake up soon. Oh, and I will check out the link too and thanks. Praise YHWH.

  38. on 14 Oct 2011 at 2:42 amLORRAINE

    One other thing that I would like to add is that in Jeremiah 33v14-16 of THE LORD YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS this scripture is confirming the reign of the ones’ seed who will be on the throne but if you go further down and finish reading this chapter 33vs. 17-26 you can see that the ruler (s) plural, of David’s seed would be multiplied this does not say anything about one person reigning over us forever not at all, but it will be generations of the seed of David and the Levites the priest to continue in the new kingdom forever. So this idea of only one ruler forever is not following the covenant of YHWH The KING and his servants from these two families of David and the Levites. This sounds more rational than one man living forever the only one can do that is YHWH THE KING who is not of flesh and blood this is why in Deut., 32v45-47 where Moses tells the people to do this Law and the Sabbath to prolong your life. People today must turn back to YHWH and away from idolatry it is a waste of their life. Praise YHWH.

  39. on 14 Oct 2011 at 3:16 amWolfgang

    Lorraine,

    you mention above

    I and many that I know realizes that the one on the throne has already been born as you said in one of your post that Moses in Deut.18v15-16 told the people that YHWH will raise a prophet like him, born of two parents and of the seed of David, and I know that this prophet is already here he has to realize his seed or has realized his seed and the time will begin soon for the new thing to happen.

    How do you know that this prophet is already here?

    There seems NO indication in the OT scriptures that would verify your claim … in particular, how do you want to identify that person as being that prophet? Is his name mentioned in the OT scriptures or by which means would you want to identify him (as well as identify any others who claim to be the Messiah as false Messiahs)? Many could come and make all kinds of claims that they are that promised Messiah/prophet, but no one could really verify it, because — for one reason — there are no genealogical records anywhere in existence by which such a person could prove that they are of the seed of David …

  40. on 14 Oct 2011 at 11:18 amSarah

    Hey DT,

    I’ve been thinking about your doubts concerning virgin birth. I just wanted to share some corroborating Bible passages that I believe support the accuracy of the birth narratives.

    In 1 Corinthians 11, I think Paul alludes to the virgin birth of Christ as the counterpart to the special creation of Eve. In the passage below, the context is the creation of man and woman. But then in verse 12, Paul draws an anaology between how Eve was created (being “born of” man, with no earthly mother) and how Christ was created (born of a woman, with no earthly father):

    “(7) For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
    (8) For man was not made from woman, but woman from man.
    (9) Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
    (10) That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
    (11) Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman;
    (12) for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.” – 1Cr 11:7-12 ESV

    In John 1:11-13, we have further support for this special creation of Christ:

    “(11) He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    (12) Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God–
    (13) children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    (14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” – Jhn 1:11-14 ESV

    Notice John’s emphasis on the fact that children of God are not born of “human decision or a husband’s will”. This was certainly true in a literal sense with the virgin birth, which I think John is pointing out in vs 14.

    In fact, one of the main points of John’s prologue seems to be an anaology between Christ’s conception and the “new and living way” through which people are henceforth born into the kingdom. That is, not in the natural way, but in the supernatural way. So not only does the miracle of the virgin birth testify to Jesus’ unique status as Messiah, but it also serves as a symbol representing how all believers will enter the kingdom.

    Just some food for thought…

  41. on 14 Oct 2011 at 2:41 pmLORRAINE

    Wolfgang, you just read the scripture of Moses prophesying that YHWH THE KING “will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me said Moses you shall harken.” You can continue on to read Deut., 15-22 and notice vs. 18 ” YHWH is speaking to Moses and He says “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (note) first Moses told the people the prophet will be like unto him, then YHWH told Moses to tell the people the prophet will be like unto thee as in like Moses. YHWH continues…and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And, in Isaiah 42:vs. 19-21, “who is blind but my servant?” Then in Isaiah 49 the servant is talking to us (note) the servant knows his seed at this point read it. Then in Isaiah 52:vs. 9-15, many think that this is jc….but this servant remember did not know who he is meaning his seed yet and YHWH is describing him to us notice vs. 14, who or what people more than any man has suffered has been persecuted has been taunted with proverbs example Mr. Bird who was pulled behind a truck and broken into pieces, then Emetiel who was cut up and the private parts were stuff into his mouth until this day from birth who? Then in Isaiah 53 YHWH tells us who his servant is and what he has been through from birth not just at 30 years of age and this servant as Moses said in Deuteronomy 18 the prophet, servant, will be raised up like him from among the people’s brethren of Israel from the seed or lineage of David, YHWH’s first born and YHWH’s Son. What more proof is needed because there is much in the OT to substantiate this prophecy but as said in a scripture that right now I cannot find will provide later many are perverted by their wisdom and knowledge and their pride. The scripture is Isaiah 47:vs.10,11. Praise unto YHWH THE KING.

  42. on 14 Oct 2011 at 2:55 pmLORRAINE

    To all, YHWH THE KING is stretching his hand out to ALL who loves Him and want to be with Him it does not matter who they are all over the world are being called to Him His jewels are coming from far and wide. Praise YHWH our FATHER THE KING.

  43. on 14 Oct 2011 at 5:25 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi Sarah,
    Thanks for the quotes. You said, “Just some food for thought…”

    I want to emphasize that I am not trying to teach others to have the same doubts that I have. I will readily admit that I could be wrong. I personally believe that because all the early church leaders were Jewish Christians, that it logically follows that the original Gospels were probably written in Hebrew or Aramaic. Linguists that have studied these things have said that the sentence structures, and such, from the Greek manuscripts seem to indicate that they were translated from Aramaic or Hebrew.

    Some of the early Church Fathers talk about reading the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, but they rejected it as not being authentic, because among other things it didn’t contain the birth narrative. There were other differences as well. I once read about how in the late 3rd. and early 4th. centuries various people traveled to Jerusalem to see if they could find any trace of the original Christians that might still be living there.

    They were horrified to discover that it was populated with Jewish Christians, who only studied ancient Christian writings that were written in Hebrew. Their main writing was a Gospel of Matthew which was written in Hebrew. Which like I said they rejected as not being authentic, because it didn’t match the Greek manuscripts of the time. Anywaze, I’m starting to ramble… 🙂

    I do admit that I could be wrong. But like I said, I think that it is inconsequential whether someone believes or doesn’t believe in the virgin birth. I don’t see it as being a salvation issue…

  44. on 14 Oct 2011 at 5:38 pmDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine,
    You said, “it was kind of getting monotenous going back and forth about the same thing so I just went for a thrill.”

    I agree that we do seem to be at an impasse. Maybe it would be best if we just respectfully agreed to disagree on this. I do wish you well in all your future studies and endeavors. It has been most interesting dialogging with you. You are certainly well versed in the O.T. scriptures. I would be careful of following anyone that claims to be a prophet, or claims to be the prophesied Messiah of YHWH.

    Y’shua warned us in Matthew 24:10-12 that, “…many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. (11) And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. (12) And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.”

    I hope your love for YHWH and your fellow man will never grow cold. God Bless…

  45. on 14 Oct 2011 at 6:08 pmSarah

    DT,

    Thanks for sharing some of your thoughts on the Hebrew vs Greek manuscripts. Just to clarify, I certainly wasn’t questioning your salvation. And I also hope I didn’t sound argumentative. I only wanted to point out that other NT writers such as Paul and John implicitly corroborate the virgin birth. At least for me personally, strong internal evidence takes precedence over possibly dubious external reports to the contrary.

    I do believe that ultimately God will reveal truth on issues like these for anyone persistently seeking him with a teachable heart. I’m counting on that, because I have so many questions!

  46. on 14 Oct 2011 at 6:23 pmLORRAINE

    DT and Sarah, I could be wrong about this but I had just read some information on this topic of the Jewish writings that were composed long ago about 200 BCE to 200AD 400 years and again on Christ at 50AD to 400AD another 200 years, so 600 years in total of the Jewish writings were being composed. Also, in these apocrypha it was acknowledged that Christianity is recorded as an offshoot of Judiasm from the 3rd century 285BCE after the last rebellion of Simon Bar Kokhba against the Roman Empire 132CE but he was defeated in two years in 135. He was also known to be called a Messiah but was then called the ‘son of lies’ by the Jewish Rabbi writers. The Jewish writings were composed by Jewish Hellenistic groups. Southern Palestine formally known as Judah became known as Edomia after the Babylonian conquest 586BCE and can be confirmed in the book of Obadiah in the OT. Also, the confirmation of Psalms 137 was prophesied. The captives were sold to the Grecians Amos 1 and Joel 3. Anyhow many transliterations of the book of remembrance began and many began the translation into the New Testament.

    Examples of Old Testament pseudepigrapha are the Ethiopian Book of Enoch, Jubilees (both of which are canonical in the Abyssinian Church of Ethiopia); the Life of Adam and Eve and the Pseudo-Philo. Examples of New Testament pseudepigrapha (but in these cases also likely to be called New Testament Apocrypha) are the Gospel of Peter and the attribution of the Epistle to the Laodiceans to Paul. Further examples of New Testament pseudepigrapha include the aforementioned Gospel of Barnabas, and the Gospel of Judas, which begins by presenting itself as “the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot”.
    Biblical PseudepigraphaThe term Pseudepigrapha commonly refers to numerous works of Jewish religious literature written from about 200 BC to 200 AD.[4] Not all of these works are actually pseudepigraphical.[4] Such works include the following:[4]

    3 Maccabees
    4 Maccabees
    Assumption of Moses
    Ethiopic Book of Enoch (1 Enoch)
    Slavonic Book of Enoch (2 Enoch)
    Book of Jubilees
    Greek Apocalypse of Baruch (3 Baruch)
    Letter of Aristeas
    Life of Adam and Eve
    Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah
    Psalms of Solomon
    Sibylline Oracles
    Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch (2 Baruch)
    Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs

    Well, I could also be wrong but the information about this was readily available. I found that geographically Ethiopia is close to the Garden of Eden I may be wrong but I will check my resources to make sure. As we know Ethiopia has never been colonized by European powers.

    Reference: Simon bar Kokhba Wikipedia

  47. on 14 Oct 2011 at 8:07 pmLORRAINE

    Doubting Thomas, I have not said that I know who the prophet is and I am not claiming anyone as such but I know they are here and as Moses did not know who he was suppose to be at first is how it goes they will have to find their seed they may even be too young yet or may not be born but according to my resources the years of calculations has been 2500 years since the vision in Daniel 11vs.36 -12:v10. I do know that they are an Israelite from the seed of David and the Levites priest is somewhere here too. We may not know the gene pool of David or the Levite but the Father does so I prefer it that way. My excitement is coming from reading the OT and matching it with our history its so illuminating and it is all right there in the scriptures of the OT about the prophet, the servant and his character and long suffering. It is so there, I cannot see why anyone else can not see it. You can begin with Nebucadnezzar when YHWH became fed up with the transgressions and iniquities of His Israel His Son and first born His chosen people. He warned us that a ‘sword’ would be sent upon us but we didn’t hear, didn’t care so as a parent does or should I say we had to accept our punishment the ‘sword’ Leviticus 26:vs.37-46 as Moses told us, and ‘the curse’ First there were the blessings Deut., 32v1-14,and then we fell short and then came the curses Duet., 32v15-68 until now and this is for all son of man. So, thank you for your compliment I do have to study its only been a short time and much more research is needed. I felt I was stumbling between you guys are highy educated and I learned a lot but I just wanted to share my joy of the illumination from Genesis to Malachi. YHWH Bless.

  48. on 14 Oct 2011 at 10:26 pmDoubting Thomas

    Sarah,
    You said, “I also hope I didn’t sound argumentative.”

    No you didn’t sound argumentative at all. It seemed to me that you were just being thoughtful and sharing some of what it is you believe with me. I am actually rather surprised that a whole bunch of people haven’t jumped all over me, because of what I posted. Because I believe it is inconsequential, I usually don’t share my doubts about the virgin birth with people. It just seemed to be a major stumbling block for Lorraine, and from my point of view it doesn’t need to be.

    I am doubtful by nature and have been since I was a young boy. I had a bad experience with an Anglican priest when I was 11 years old. It shattered my innocence and left me distrusting authority figures and the status quo. I became a staunch atheist by the age of about 13 or so. I remained a staunch atheist for almost 20 years. It still effects me to this day, in that I will question anything that doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

    My best friend Tim says that I need to work on re-establishing my trust with authority figures and that I shouldn’t have so many doubts about various things (he is a Trinitarian). But, I think God gave me my life experiences for a reason. I don’t know what my purpose in this life is, but my doubtful nature is just part of who I am. Of course I don’t try to force my doubts on to other people.

    All my closest friends are Trinitarians, but they all know about my doubts concerning the Trinity. I never try to force my Biblical Unitarian/Socinian beliefs on to them, although I will discuss my beliefs whenever the subject comes up in a conversation. I don’t believe that the way a person views the Godhead will in any way effect their salvation. Of course I am always interested in learning the truth, and I do learn new things all the time.

    Anywaze, I want to thank-you for your thoughtful responses. God Bless…

  49. on 14 Oct 2011 at 10:47 pmDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine,
    Discussing which books should or should not have been included in our modern N.T. cannon is a different subject completely. If you want to discuss this then I would suggest we move the conversation over to a more appropriate thread.

    There is a thread called “Is the NT ‘infallible’/’inerrant’ Something close? Or something else?” It is written by Ron S. and is an excellent article on the subject. There were more than 300 comments made on the article. If you are interested in what I believe on the subject, just scroll through the comments and look at my postings. I have made my views well known throughout the comments. I will paste a link for you below if you are interested;

    http://lhim.org/blog/2011/02/19/is-the-nt-infalliableinerrant-something-close-or-something-else/

    You also said, “I have not said that I know who the prophet is and I am not claiming anyone as such but I know they are here.”

    Well I believe that the prophet that Moses was speaking of was here already, and that he will be returning at some time in the future. But, from what I understand it will happen at a time when most people aren’t expecting it.

    Have a blessed and inspiring Sabbath and praise YHWH…

  50. on 15 Oct 2011 at 12:04 amLORRAINE

    Doubting Thomas, thank you, and I did post to that topic but I was responding to you and Sarah discerning on the ‘virgin birth’ whether it was authentic or not so I just thought that I would post some of the documented Jewish writings of the NT to show that the scriptures were transliterations of the OT and not coinciding with it. But I will post it there if that is more appropriate to do and I do have some conflicting comparison from the OT to the NT that YHWH The Father has said to us in Malachi 3v6 He changes not and in Amos 3v7 he has no secrets that he goes through his prophets and servants to let us know what he wants and to give prophesies on His magnifications Deut., 18:v 22,but much was changed in the NT without prophecy or permission from YHWH THE KING. YHWH Bless.

  51. on 15 Oct 2011 at 1:07 amLORRAINE

    DT, I read the post about your unfortunate encounter with a priest, first I am sorry for whatever that person may have said or did to you and it is his faith in the end that he will be judged. I could not help to notice that you said “YHWH had you to go through such an ordeal for some reason” well not your exact words but what I wondered about is why do many people say that when something goes terribly wrong for them in life when we are born in sin and with given the fact that a person who has been given the free will by YHWH is the one who is responsible for his or her actions totally. It just has me confused when people put the blame on YHWH when we need to know that there are for one, unforeseen occurrences and that people do have choices and free will. What YHWH says is in Jeremiah 17:vs.9 ” The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperatey wicked: who can know it? vs.10, I YHWH search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings. But unfortunately with us having free will we make that choice to do wrong which ever way that person’s heart follows and this is why we have the criminal system even though it’s not perfect we need it for those who think they are above the law and YHWH in the end of it all. But I truly am sorry for your bad experience and I hope that you know that to give it to YHWH do not carry it yourself, and He will take it to heart and fix it for you. Praise YHWH and YHWH BLESS YOU.

  52. on 15 Oct 2011 at 10:29 amSarah

    DT,

    Thanks for sharing a little more of your background. I want to echo Lorraine’s sympathy for the way you were treated by that priest. I can only imagine the terrible impact it had on you. And yet here you are, still seeking God, who is using your pain to reshape your faith. What a testimony! Amen!

  53. on 15 Oct 2011 at 11:35 amRay

    Doesn’t a man have to be born again to be a Christian, or is it enough to simply learn from Jesus and follow his teachings?

    It seems to me that a man must be born again to be a Christian and that the new birth is related to how the Lord himself came into this world.

    John 8:42
    Therefore Jesus said unto them, if God were your Father, then would ye love me: for I proceeded forth, and came from God, neither
    came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Doesn’t this tell us that Jesus was with God in heaven and was sent by him into the world, (John 3:17) and tell us a bit about how this happened? (Luke 1:35)

    Didn’t Jesus proceed forth of that which overshadowed Mary?

    I suppose some will call a man a Christian who has been following the teachings of Jesus but has not yet come to hearing how he came into this world, but how can a man be a true Christian without believing in the Lord’s conception by the holy Spirit?

    Isn’t that understanding necessary in order to be born of the Spirit?

    I’ve never heard of a man being sent who did not exist at the time of his sending. I think such a thing (if indeed it would exist) would be the exception rather than the rule.

    Is it so wrong to see Jesus as God? Is it wrong for a man to see Jesus being as God is?

    Isn’t it possible to take something God said as a commandment and make it so constricted in such a legalistic restrictive sense that it becomes something other than God meant it to be?

    I believe the Pharisees of Jesus’ day had something of that nature.

    There are so many rules that men might have while they go out to make disciples in their own image an likeness, yet our calling is to bring others to the Lord for salvation.

  54. on 15 Oct 2011 at 11:35 amTim (aka Antioch)

    DT – my sympathies as well for your experience with the priest. That you are consistently respectful and thoughtful in your postings is a testament to your great spirit.

    I read through the links you sent, thank you. I figured you had some solid reasons for your beliefs and I agree that there are some interesting points made in the article – why did Paul never mention the virgin birth?

    Does it matter? The virgin part does not matter to me, however, what does matter to me is that Jesus had to be different from us in order to be sinless, no? I have believed that he was a man like Adam before the fall and tempted like Adam, remained obedient and therefore restored the relationship of man to God. If Jesus was not sinless, then the whole concept falls apart. Unless he was begotten of God in a manner similar to Adam, then I don’t see how he could have been sinless.

    What came to me further in thinking through this is the birth story of Isaac. Do you think an 85 year old woman could conceive a child without God being involved with the event (aka a miracle)? Was Samuel’s birth to a barren woman not miraculous? So, I do think there is OT support for miraculous births.

    Thanks for giving me more fodder that I cannot share with my orthodox friends 🙂

  55. on 15 Oct 2011 at 11:41 amDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine,
    You said, “It just has me confused when people put the blame on YHWH when we need to know that there are for one, unforeseen occurrences and that people do have choices and free will.”

    When I was about 12 or 13 yrs. old I started to blame God for what had happened to me when I was 11. I couldn’t understand how a loving God could allow something like that to happen to a young child. It wasn’t long before I came to the conclusion that God could not possibly exist. This is where my doubtful nature first began. Up until that point I would believe just about anything that anyone told me.

    When I came back to believing in God again, I was confused by all the different beliefs that the various churches seemed to have. At this point in my life I hadn’t yet read the bible. Because of circumstances beyond my control I never did get a chance to finish High School, and I am not very good at trying to read things that contain complicated language. I had thought that the bible would be beyond my ability to understand and comprehend.

    After going to many different churches I finally decided to try to read the bible for myself and see if I could try to make sense out of it. This is how I eventually came to my Biblical Unitarian/Socinian views. I had no idea that there were other people that shared my views. I had never even heard of the words Unitarian and Socinian and had no idea what they meant.

    It took several years of searching on the internet before I finally came across Anthony Buzzard who explained to me that my beliefs were Socinian in nature. He recommended that I go to this website (K.R.) and share my thought with the people here. Except for a few people, most people here accept me even though I do have some rather unusual beliefs. Like my doubts about whether certain books and letters should have been included in our N.T. cannon etc…

    I consider this website to me my on-line church. I’ve learned so much from reading the articles here and sharing my thoughts with the people that post here. From what I have seen there are a lot of very well educated and intelligent people that post here. I thank God that I was not rejected just because I disagree with them on a few things. Of course I don’t consider myself to be a teacher or anything like that, and I don’t try to force my beliefs on to others.

    I am just a humble student of Christ trying to learn as much as I can, while at the same time trying to grow closer to our heavenly Father (YHWH). I believe that God was guiding me so that I could find this website that accepts you even if they disagree with some of your views on various things…

  56. on 15 Oct 2011 at 12:02 pmRay

    Q. If a man says that Jesus is God, he has:

    a. told a lie.
    b. given a fair description of Jesus.

  57. on 15 Oct 2011 at 3:11 pmSarah

    why did Paul never mention the virgin birth?

    I think a case could be made that he did, albeit indirectly (see post #37). It seems to me that the analogy in 1 Corinthians 11:12 only makes sense if Paul is comparing the unique way Eve was “born” with the way Christ was born.

  58. on 15 Oct 2011 at 4:03 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You asked, “Doesn’t a man have to be born again to be a Christian, or is it enough to simply learn from Jesus and follow his teachings?”

    To be quite honest I’m not sure about that. I tend to lean towards the idea that it is enough to simply learn from Y’shua and follow his teachings though.

    You also said, “I’ve never heard of a man being sent who did not exist at the time of his sending.”

    I don’t study John, but John 1:6 says, “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.”

    I don’t think that this means that John the Baptist pre-existed before his birth.

    You also asked the following question, “Q. If a man says that Jesus is God, he has:

    a. told a lie.
    b. given a fair description of Jesus.”

    I think it is a fair description of Y’shua if the person means it in a comparative way, but I don’t believe it is true that God took on a suit of human flesh and dwelt among us here on earth…

    Tim,
    You said, “Does it matter? The virgin part does not matter to me, however, what does matter to me is that Jesus had to be different from us in order to be sinless, no?”

    I agree that it doesn’t matter which is why I said it is inconsequential and not really worth arguing about. I don’t see this as being a salvation issue in any way, and I have no problem with anyone that wants to believe in the virgin birth. I just personally have some serious doubts about it. I believe Y’shua was different from us because of his nature. He was the only human that ever existed that lived his entire life without committing any sin in the eyes of his (and our) Father.

    That makes him more than just our Messiah, Teacher, Lord and King. It makes him our role model as well. Someone we can aspire to try and emulate as best as we can. Of course none of us will be able to lead a completely sinless life like Y’shua did. I think that all God wants us to do is to try our best. At least that’s the way I see it anywaze…

  59. on 15 Oct 2011 at 4:22 pmDoubting Thomas

    Tim,
    I just realized that I forgot to answer what you said at the end of your message.

    You said, “So, I do think there is OT support for miraculous births.”

    I agree. It is not impossible that Y’shua had a miraculous birth. I just have my doubts about whether the birth narratives are authentic or whether they might have been added on at some point.

    You also said,
    “Thanks for giving me more fodder that I cannot share with my orthodox friends :)”

    You are quite welcome… 😉

    I want to thank everyone for their kind words above. I am actually thankful for my doubting nature. If it wasn’t for my doubting nature I would probably still be a Trinitarian and I would probably have never have found this site, and all the kind people that post here… 🙂

  60. on 15 Oct 2011 at 6:09 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Sarah, you said:

    Notice John’s emphasis on the fact that children of God are not born of “human decision or a husband’s will”. This was certainly true in a literal sense with the virgin birth, which I think John is pointing out in vs 14.

    To me, I think this points back to John 3 and the discussion with Nicodemus about being born again. We have a birth mother – our first birth, but our second birth is spiritual. As for 1 Cor 11, I suppose. It does not hit me hard and I would think that since the ‘virgin birth’ is part of most doctrinal statements, it would have more support. I never realized how scant the support is.

    DT – what is it about Yeshua’s nature that allowed him to be sinless? Why could he live life without sin when all the rest of us have no chance to do so? Maybe therein lies the real meaning of ‘Son of God’.

    I want to confirm as well that this is just interesting speculation for me and am not seeking to get out the pitchforks and torches and have a witch roast – I would be on the wrong side of that crowd anyway 🙂

  61. on 15 Oct 2011 at 7:01 pmXavier

    If you do not identify with any of the below, it is more likely you are a biblical unitarian.

    Monotheism can involve a variety of Conceptions of God:

    * Deism posits the existence of a single god, the Designer of the designs in Nature. Some Deists believe in an impersonal god that does not intervene in the world, while other Deists believe in intervention through Providence.
    * Monism is the type of monotheism found in Hinduism, encompassing pantheism and panentheism, and at the same time the concept of a personal god.
    * Pantheism holds that the universe itself is God. The existence of a transcendent being extraneous to nature is denied.
    * Panentheism is a form of monistic monotheism which holds that God is all of existence, containing, but not identical to, the Universe. The one God is omnipotent and all-pervading, the universe is part of God, and God is both immanent and transcendent.
    * Substance monotheism, found in some indigenous African religions, holds that the many gods are different forms of a single underlying substance.
    * Trinitarian monotheism is the Christian doctrine of belief in one God who is three distinct persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

  62. on 15 Oct 2011 at 7:06 pmDoubting Thomas

    Tim,
    You asked, “Why could he live life without sin when all the rest of us have no chance to do so?”

    That is an excellent question. That is probably the strongest proof (that I can see) that Y’shua did indeed have a miraculous (virgin) birth. I just don’t understand why some of the oldest writings like Marcion’s Gospel of Matthew, and the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew didn’t have the birth narratives in them. Why would anyone want to intentionally remove the birth narratives from the Gospels???

    However I can see why certain people that believed that Y’shua was God, or a God Man, might have wanted to add on birth narratives that depicted a miraculous birth of some sort…

  63. on 16 Oct 2011 at 3:02 amLORRAINE

    To All, to continue to dwell on if there is a miracle birth or not of jc is a prerogative but to be in the realm of understanding we must go beyond emotions and euphorias the times are in play and one must attain the truth and in Isaiah 61 Isaiah is saying that ” The Spirit of the Lord YHWH is upon me, because YHWH has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptabe year of YHWH and the DAY of VENGENCE of our GOD YHWH; to comfort all that mourn; 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But you shall be named the Priests (plural) of YHWH The Father; men shall call you the Ministers (plural) of our GOD YHWH; you shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall you boast yourselves. 8 For I YHWH love judgment I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in TRUTH, and I will make an ever lasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed (plural) shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring (plural) among the people; all that see them (plural) shall acknowledge them, (plural) that they (plural) are the seed which YHWH has BLESSED. 11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so YHWH GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before ALL the NATIONS. Obviously this coming of the Day of YHWH is not talking about one person at all it is talking in Plural of the chosen anointed ones. As I’ve said before those who think that this is talking about the olden days and not what is coming up in Jeremiah 23:vs.20 “The anger of YHWH shall not return, until He have executed, and until He have performed the thoughts of His heart; in the latter days you shall consider it perfectly, vs. 27 ” Which think (referring to the prophets) to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers (in the past) have forgotten my name for Ba’al. Also, in Isaiah 43:vs. 18,19 18 “Remember you not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19 “Behold, I will do a NEW THING, how it shall spring forth; shall you not know it? me talking lol, Are you guys ready or are you still in dream land? I YHWH wil even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

  64. on 16 Oct 2011 at 8:54 pmRay

    Do any of you see a connection between John 16:27-30 and Luke 1:35?

    When you picture Luke 1:35 in your mind, does it remind you of a begetting in some spiritual way?

    I know we usually speak of Luke 1:35 as a conception rather than a begetting, for his birth that we usually speak of happened 9 months or so after this conception by God.

  65. on 17 Oct 2011 at 10:44 pmDoubting Thomas

    Tim (aka Atioch),
    I was just reading an interesting article that my friend Robert had sent me some time ago. It goes into detail about what we know about the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew (or Gospel of the Hebrews as it is sometimes called) . I will paste the link below for you if you or anyone else is interested.

    http://www.onlinetruth.org/Articles%20Folder/hebrew_gospel_of_matthew.htm

    I hope you and everyone else have a great week…

  66. on 20 Oct 2011 at 8:55 pmRay

    What if Old Testament appearances of the Lord God were God sending Jesus to appear, communicating himself by him, and what if the Lord Jesus used angels of God (his, that is Jesus’ own angles which were also of the Father) to communicate himself at times in the Old Testament?

  67. on 20 Oct 2011 at 10:32 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    I personally don’t believe that Y’shua preexisted prior to his birth. I just don’t see how someone who is fully 100% human, like us, could preexist prior to their birth.

    However, I do respect your right to believe in a preexisting Y’shua…

  68. on 22 Oct 2011 at 12:41 amRay

    I suppose all the people who will be in heaven had once previously existed as 100% humans like us.

  69. on 22 Oct 2011 at 9:25 amRay

    Thomas,
    The reason Jesus could exist before his birth is because that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit.

    Jesus is able to cross the barriors that are impossible for men to cross without him. He’s able to take men where they can not go without him.

  70. on 22 Oct 2011 at 2:41 pmLORRAINE

    Ray, oh the fairy tales, I think that you are in euphoria and I’m not trying to be rude but I surely sympathize with you for many have been mislead by the pastors Jeremiah 23, Jeremiah 24:vs.9,10, and the priest Malachi 2. I am so sorry but this earth was put here for us to live in righteousness and peace and love through the covenant of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the land was given from the rivers of Egypt to the Euphrates and more Genesis 15v. 13-18. There is a scripture where YHWH states this and about the earth and his plans for us I will provide later will check my resources. Your belief sounds a lot like in the days of Amen Serapis the Egyptian idol of resurrection many Egyptians believed this and it was carried on to Christianity. In Deut. 32v45-47 in the very beginning Moses told us through YHWH do the law to prolong our lives and in Isaiah 53 about the servant the elect the arm of YHWH vs. 10, and YHWH does not change Malachi 3v6.

  71. on 22 Oct 2011 at 7:30 pmRay

    Truth is no fairy tale. Those who were in need of repentance considered that the apostles of Christ were drunk on that day of Pentecost. (Acts 2)

  72. on 22 Oct 2011 at 10:45 pmLorraine

    Ray, is there somewhere that maybe you could fulfill that truth from the OT for the NT should be its fulfillment of the substantiating of the said new covenant. What I do know is in Deut.32v16-18 it prophesied that newly gods will begin and that is the NT for Moses prophesied that after he dies in 31:vs. 29 we would provoke YHWH to anger and as also prophesied in Deut.28:v15-68 it told us of our fate if we anger YHWH we’ll be under the ‘curse’ in Deut.30v1 we will be driven to serve other nations and their gods until this day. To further substantiate the final vision of the future Daniel 11v36-12:10 tells us how the different governors from chapter 7 of Daniel’s dream in which Gabriel the angle had to help him with of the 10 horns were(kings) that will rise and fall and at the last one he will exalt himself to magnification and go against the true GOD YHWH and all others and accomplish vast prosperity then he will honor the god of forces that his fathers did not know with gold and pleasant things in the most strong hold a strange god and increase its glory and caused them to rule over many and divide the land for gain and Christianity is that strong hold full of poitics and this is the time of now as prophesied in Duet 28,30,32 that will happen to us. Repenting YHWH says he has grown tired of it in Jere.15v6. Aslo in Malachi 1v6-14 YHWH tells how we snuffed at Him with our offerings and expected to still get blessings similar to the repentings of today as if He were nothing He is our Savior and our KING. Why are those in Christianity honoring YHWH THE FATHER? Do remember whatever they tell you in the nt if YHWH did not say it then it has been changed and YHWH says Malachi 3v6 He changes not. For in Deut. 18:v22 “When a prophet speak in the name of YHWH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass,that is the thing which YHWH had not spoken, but the prophet had spoken it presumptuosly: thou shall not be afraid of him. And in Amos 3:v.7 YHWH’s prophets and servants is always how He speaks to us no secrets or beliefs only truth. We are atthe feet and toes Daniel 2:v1-49.

  73. on 22 Oct 2011 at 10:51 pmLorraine

    correction Why doesn’t Chrstianity honor YHWH THE FATHER?

  74. on 23 Oct 2011 at 12:12 amDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine,
    You said, “Why doesn’t Chrstianity honor YHWH THE FATHER?”

    You will find that everyone on this site does honor and worship YHWH the Father. We had an article entitled “Should we worship Jesus?” and almost everyone on this site agreed that “only” YHWH the Father should be worshiped. I will paste the link below for you. You will notice that Ray was the only one on this site who seemed to believe that it was alright to worship Y’shua in the same that way we worship the Father (YHWH).

    http://lhim.org/blog/2011/04/02/should-jesus-be-worshipped/

    You also keep quoting Jeremiah 15:6 and saying that God is tired of people repenting.

    (6) “You have rejected me, declares the LORD; you keep going backward,
    so I have stretched out my hand against you and destroyed you— I am weary of relenting.”

    It says that God is weary of relenting. It does not say anything about YHWH being weary of people repenting. Listen to how Y’shua answers Peter in Matthew 18:21-22;

    “Then Peter came up and said to him, ‘Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?’ (22) Jesus said to him, ‘I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven’.”

    I believe that YHWH has an almost infinite amount of patience when it comes to his beloved children. I don’t think that God gets weary of people truly and honestly repenting.

    I hope that you had a great and inspiring Sabbath. God Bless…

  75. on 23 Oct 2011 at 12:33 amLORRAINE

    Doubting Thomas, my KJV red trimming 162M Regency says in Jeremiah 15v6 ‘repenting.’ and aside from that it is confirmed in Malachi 1vs.6-14 YHWH expresses His impatience on how we have not been honoring Him being the Father. This is why we do not have the sacrifices anymore people were being contrite with their offerings. But thanks you see many of these new books are changing words around my book is pretty old at least 20 years. Anyhow thanks again and it is good that those at the site do know that YHWH is the Strong One and does not give His glory to another. Thanks, and you have a bless day as well.

  76. on 23 Oct 2011 at 12:47 amLORRAINE

    Ray, I’m sooo excited, I found the new covenant in the Book of Remembrance so called Old Testament it is in the book of Jeremiah chapters 30 and 31v31 the new covenant of the seed of David will come says YHWH. And in Jeremiah 33v14-26 YHWH tells us that many will be in this movement the new covenant vs.22″As the host of heaven cannot be numbered neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto Me.” Praise YHWH THE KING.

  77. on 23 Oct 2011 at 12:34 pmRay

    As I Cor 8:6 says to us there is but one God, the Father.

    But then it goes on to say that there is also one Lord to us, one Jesus Christ by name.

    To say that there is one God to us and leave out Jesus as our Lord seems to be wrong doesn’t it? That makes sense since it is by him only that a man may come to God, for no one comes to the Father but by Jesus. One can not come to God and be a follower of God without following Jesus. One can not be a child of God without first having come to Jesus, or at least to have been led to God by him whom they have not seen.

    Yet, though there is but one God to us, it’s not robbery for us to compare Jesus to God finding them in so many ways to be absolutely equal. This happens in so many ways that I don’t think they can be numbered. If we think we have counted them all, another one will surely arise, it seems to me.

    The Lord Jesus is God by comparison.

    I’ve often heard that God is one what and three who’s. That’s some funny language it seems to me, but if I may use the same type of language, I might put it forth that God in one who and many whats,
    meaning that God is one and what he is is many things to us, such as truth, righteousness, justice, mercy, love, goodness, equity, life,
    and all the things that Jesus himself is. The list gets to be so long, who could put it all on paper?

    God told Moses that he is what he is.

    “I am what I am.” is basicly the same as “I am that I am.” It seems to me to be a difference in English because of the time and how words are used. They are used a bit differently in different times.
    (Old English vs. new)

    In the Bible I’ve seen where Jesus has communicated himself by sending his angel. The angel of the Lord is also seen as communicating God. Some say that angel of the Lord as appearing the the Old Testament at times is Jesus. Maybe it was Jesus who sent the angel to represent him, or maybe it was an appearance of the Lord Jesus himself, I don’t know for sure.

    I tend to go with the idea that in the Old Testament, the Lord Jesus may have sent his angel, one of the angels of God to communicate things about himself, to be his representative, when the angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament.

    To me there is but one God, the Father, and his Son Jesus is as he is.

  78. on 23 Oct 2011 at 12:39 pmRay

    It seems to me to be acceptable to say that Who Jesus is, is the Son of God, even as What he is, is God. (If I may describe Jesus in one word)

  79. on 23 Oct 2011 at 1:33 pmDoubting Thomas

    Lorraine,
    You said, “…my KJV red trimming 162M Regency says in Jeremiah 15v6 ‘repenting’.”

    Their are different families of ancient Greek manuscripts some going back much earlier than others. Although the KJV is about 400 years old, and is one of the oldest English translations, it is based on a modern family of Greek manuscripts. All of the modern bible translations use the oldest Greek manuscripts that are available. The assumption is that the older the Greek manuscripts, then the more accurate and reliable the translations are.

    For example the word “Godhead” only appears in the old KJV (written about 400 years ago) and the Old Geneva Bible (written about 500 years ago). The word “Godhead” doesn’t appear in any of our modern translations, because the word “Godhead” doesn’t appear in any of the oldest Greek manuscripts. The word “Godhead” was invented by the Trinitarians in order to support their doctrine of the Trinity. These Trinitarian biases were reflected in the later Greek manuscripts.

    Many people have grown up using the KJV only, and like you, they believe that because it was written some 400 years ago that it must be more accurate then the modern translations. This just shows an ignorance of the process of how the modern translations use “only” the oldest available Greek manuscripts, instead of the later family of Greek manuscripts that was used when translating the KJV.

    I would recommend that if you are interested in serious bible study that you look at some of the more modern bible translations. Most serious bible students will compare different bible translations with one another. A word, or phrase, can be translated into English in several different ways. The Net.bible.org is an excellent study document. I will paste and copy the various ways to interpret Jeremaih 15:6 below for you (this is copied from the Net.bible.org).

    Net bible;
    “I, the Lord, say: 1 ‘You people have deserted me! You keep turning your back on me.’ 2 So I have unleashed my power against you 3 and have begun to destroy you. 4 I have grown tired of feeling sorry for you!”

    NIV bible;
    You have rejected me,” declares the LORD. “You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion.

    NASB bible;
    “You who have forsaken Me,” declares the LORD, “You keep going backward. So I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am tired of relenting!”

    NLT bible;
    “You have forsaken me and turned your back on me,” says the LORD. “Therefore, I will raise my clenched fists to destroy you. I am tired of always giving you another chance.”

    MSG bible;
    “[You] left [me], remember?” GOD’s Decree. “You turned your back and walked out. So I will grab you and hit you hard. I’m tired of letting you off the hook.”

    BBE bible;
    “You have given me up, says the Lord, you have gone back: so my hand is stretched out against you for your destruction; I am tired of changing my purpose.”

    NRSV bible;
    “You have rejected me, says the LORD, you are going backward; so I have stretched out my hand against you and destroyed you—I am weary of relenting.”

    NKJV bible;
    “You have forsaken Me,” says the LORD, “You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of relenting!”

    As you can see there are many different ways to interpret this verse. Only the old KJV version uses the word repenting. Have a great day and God Bless…

  80. on 23 Oct 2011 at 2:49 pmRay

    I think about the puzzle, the riddle some Trinitarians put forth.

    I’m talking about the diagram where they draw “The Word” in the center of a triangle of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (which are placed at the corners of the triangle) and around the outside there are paths that say, “Is not”, while there are short paths from each of the three corners to the inside of the diagram that to to “The Word”, which say, “Is”.

    I’ve heard it said that the inside represents the Trinitarian view, while the outside represents the Unitarian view, but I tend to think the answer to this riddle, (if there is one to be found) is about the inside being the “What” part, and the outside being the “Who” part.

  81. on 23 Oct 2011 at 3:39 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    That’s an interesting way of looking at it. Of course I know when you say that Y’shua is God, that you mean it as a comparison, and you actually know that Y’shua is in reality “the son of God”…

  82. on 23 Oct 2011 at 3:46 pmRay

    Here’s a question I’m contemplating:

    Does God call people to be advocates for the Trinity doctrine?

    I do not believe my calling is to be an advocate for the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Lots of people seem to be doing it. I don’t think there’s need for another. I personally don’t feel it to be my calling.

  83. on 23 Oct 2011 at 3:51 pmLorraine

    Ray is there anywhere a scripture in the so called OT to back up that we are not to go to YHWH unless we go through jc for I only see in the Book of Remembrance that YHWH goes through His chosen prophets and His servants only in Amos 3v7. As long as we do the law and the Sabbath we are with him and blessed always. His servant His elect who is of the seed of David along with the high priest seed of Zadok and the Levites priest in (plural) and who will bring judgment and righteousness in the new kingdom of the new covenant is in many scriptures Jere.23v1-8, Jere.33v14-26 Isa.42v18-25, Isa.49,52,53 and more so can you show any that fulfills the OT what is said in the nt? Also, I understand when one is in ‘belief’ one rather not get substantial objective facts on it but I need scripture to know. Going through jc who is suppose to be YHWH’s son is irrelevant until I see in scripture that YHWH claims him as His son the only son I witnessed in the OT is in Exodus 4:vs.22,23 ‘Israel’ the chosen people of YHWH THE KING and they are mentioned all through the Book of Remembrance Genesis through Malachi dosen’t it seem suspicious that they are never mentioned in the nt when these people and anyone who returns unto YHWH Malachi 3v7, are constantly mentioned in the OT. Never has YHWH made any one person the star of the show because He is the only one who is that The Strong One and the Father and will not share this glory oh did I mention that YHWH is a jealous GOD this is said all through Deuteronomy and the OT for example Deut.4:vs.24. I do respect your belief and if there is a scripture in the nt to fulfill it from the OT then it is alright with me otherwise our conversation is useless for YHWH doesn’t change Malachi 3v6 that would be idolatry.

  84. on 23 Oct 2011 at 3:56 pmDoubting Thomas

    Ray,
    You said, “I personally don’t feel it to be my calling.”

    I know it is certainly not my calling either… 🙂

  85. on 23 Oct 2011 at 4:07 pmLorraine

    Doubting Thomas, this is why I said that this Book of Remembrance so called OT is tampered with and many others so I am aware that there are different ways to translate depending on the languages but Hebrew is primary I would think. Also, the words ‘repent’ and ‘relent’ is not that much different in meaning and usage so really it does show us that YHWH is growing tired of our backsliding and so much that He has already punished us or else we would not have the problems in life and the world as we do the sword is upon us. So the bottom line is that if we don’t turn back unto His law and the Sabbath we wil continue the ‘curse.’ Until the day of YHWH and it looks like that will be the only way this is going to all get straightened out for people are so stiffnecked.

  86. on 22 Sep 2017 at 5:04 pmPovero

    “Before Abraham was, YAHWEH (I am that am),” says Jesus when his opponents questioned his credentials. The Gospel of John, referring to Christ, says, “In the beginning, there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God…” Scripture is clear on the identity of Christ, and the earliest Christian writers understood Christ to be homousios – consubstantial – with the Father, that Christ is eternally begotten of the Father, not made. This teaching is incorrect, and it matters. If Jesus is not God, then He cannot swallow up and defeat sin in His death on the cross, and faith in him is useless. And so is faith in the Father, since we’d all be bound for hell without Christ – might as well do whatever we want. This teaching you offer has terrible consequences. I pray you all find the truth.

    Three persons does not mean three gods. God is indeed one. If God is love as John tells us in his letter, then He must be everything in which love is contingent. He is the Lover – the Father, the Beloved – the Son, and the Perfect Love that gives life and conforms them to each other – the Holy Spirit. This is one God, three Divine persons. That’s always been the understanding.

  87. on 21 Jul 2018 at 2:41 amS.SAMDANIEL,IPS

    Dearly Beloved,Peace be to you in the Everlasting Honourable Name ‘YAHWEH’!
    YAHWEH IS NOT A BINITY OR TRINITY! YAHWEH ALONE IS THE CREATOR AND SAVIOUR! HE IS A SPIRIT BEING! HE HAS NO SON!
    BINITY AND TRINITY FRAUDS WERE INSERTED IN GREEK AND LATIN TRANSLATIONS MADE FROM THE HEBREW MANUSCRIPTS BY THE POPES OF ROME AFTER 3RD CENTURY CE!
    YAHWEH HIMSELF ONLY MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH AS THE SAVIOUR!
    SEE YESHA 7:14,9:6.40:3-5,MICAH 5:2,MAL3:1ETC.
    MAL 3:1 IS PERVERTED IN MATT 11:10,MARK 1:2 AND LUKE 7:27 to CREATE TWO gods viz,father god and son god/son of god!
    How the Everlastig Father YAHWEH [Yeshayah 9:6] could become the son of god? How YAHWEH of hosts of Mal 3:1 could become the son of god? How YAHWEH and ELoah of Yeshayah 40:3-5 could become the son of god?.Two gods fraud and 3 gods fraud are inserted throughout the New Testament translations

    Are the following verses which relate to the Saviour false then?
    ‘For to you is born this day a Saviour who is the Master YAHWEH[MARYAH in Aramaic]-Luke 2:11.
    ‘In the beginning was the Word.The Word was with YAHWEH and the Word was YAHWEH.The Same was from the beginning with YAHWEH-John 1:1..The Word became flesh [John 1:14]

    ‘The first man was from the earth,earthy but the second man is the Master Yahweh from heaven'[I Corr 15:47]
    ‘I AM YAHWEH EL SHADDAI,THE BEGINNING AND THE END AND THE FIRST AND THE LAST WHO WAS,WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME[REV !:8]
    He also says that He is a Spirit Being!
    Rev 2:7,11,17,29:3:6,13,22].

    There is also only one throne in heaven for YAHWEH EL SHADDAI,THE SPIRIT BEING!

    If you have Email ID,I will forward my Research Articles in this regard.
    Your Loving Brother in Truth,
    S.SAM DANIEL,IPS

  

Leave a Reply