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Introduction

The first five books of the Bible – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy – are collectively known as the Torah. The Hebrew word “Torah” is usually translated as “Law”; but other valid translations are “Teaching” and “Instruction”.

Some of the information in the Torah deals with the rules and regulations that God gave to Moses – i.e., the so-called “Mosaic law”. According to the traditional Jewish interpretation of the Torah, there are a total of 613 rules and regulations, in the entire body of the Mosaic law.

One of the questions that often arises in Christian groups is: “How relevant is the Mosaic law to Christians?” In other words, the question is: “Should Christians care about the Mosaic law at all – and if so, why?”

From my experience, there are two main beliefs about that question, among the various Christian denominations.

One of the main answers is as follows:

“The Mosaic law is absolutely required  for salvation. In other words, it is completely necessary for a Christian to follow the Mosaic law as much as possible, in order to be saved. As a result, if a Christian does not follow the Mosaic law, then he will not be saved – no matter how much faith he has in Jesus.”

The other main answer is the following:

“The Mosaic law is completely obsolete. Therefore, it is definitely not necessary for a Christian to follow any part of the Mosaic law, in order to be saved. Not only that, but there is no benefit whatsoever in following any of the 613 Mosaic law regulations.”

 

As we can see, the statements above raise two separate, independent issues:

1. Is following the Mosaic law required for salvation?

2. Is there any benefit at all, to following any of the Mosaic law’s tenets?

So, let’s take a look in Scripture, to see if we can discover any information about those two issues.

 

Three different meanings of “salvation”

To begin with, let’s take a look at the definition of the term “salvation”. From my experience, most Christians only have one meaning in mind, when they discuss salvation; but it appears to me that there are at least three distinct meanings of that term in Scripture.

By definition, the word “salvation” refers to being “saved from” something. So, when a person refers to “salvation”, the question is: what, exactly, are people being saved from? From what I can see, there are (at least) three separate things that people can be saved from, in Scripture:

 

Meaning 1: Salvation from death, during the kingdom age – i.e., being saved from permanent death, in the Kingdom of God. In other words, this meaning of “salvation” refers to being granted eternal life, in the kingdom age.

Meaning 2: Salvation from death, during this age – i.e., being saved from premature mortal death, in this current age. In other words, this meaning of “salvation” refers to being granted a long mortal lifespan, in this current age.

Meaning 3: Salvation from national enemies – i.e., being saved from military defeat, by a foreign country. In other words, this meaning of “salvation” refers to being granted military victory, over another nation’s armed forces.

 

Here are some examples from Scripture, which demonstrate these three meanings of salvation:

John 3:16 (ESV):

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Deuteronomy 4:40 (NIV):

40 Keep his [God’s] decrees and commands, which I am giving you today, so that it may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live long in the land the LORD your God gives you for all time.

Joshua 8:1 (NIV):

1 Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the king of Ai, his people, his city and his land.

The first verse (John 3:16) refers to being granted eternal life, during the kingdom age – i.e., it refers to “meaning 1” of salvation.

The second verse (Deuteronomy 4:40) refers to being granted a long mortal life, during this age – i.e., it refers to “meaning 2” of salvation.

The third verse (Joshua 8:1) refers to being granted a military victory, over an enemy city – i.e., it refers to “meaning 3” of salvation.

 

Does the Mosaic law have any bearing on eternal life?

From my experience, when Christians use the term “salvation”, they almost always are referring to “meaning 1” of salvation – i.e., they are referring to being granted eternal life in the kingdom. So, when a Christian brings up the subject of “is the Mosaic law required for salvation”, what he is really asking is: “Is it necessary to follow the Mosaic law, in order to be granted eternal life?”

One of the most central parts of the Mosaic law is the system of animal sacrifices – i.e., the sacrifices of animals to God, in official ceremonies. The following passage discusses that sacrificial system – and how it relates to eternal life:

Hebrews 10:1-14 (NIV):

1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The above passage tells us that animal sacrifices can never take away people’s sins – i.e., they can never make people “perfect”. In addition to that, the passage states that God did not even want those sacrifices – i.e., He was not “pleased” with them.

I draw the following conclusions, from the above passage:

– In order for a person to be granted everlasting life, his sins must be taken away.

– Animal sacrifices were never able to take away people’s sins.

– Therefore, animal sacrifices were never able to grant people eternal life!

Think about that: The centerpiece of the Mosaic law – the sacrificial system – was never able to grant people eternal life! In other words, the sacrificial system of the Mosaic law does not allow anyone to be granted everlasting life – and it never did.

In other words, not only is the Mosaic law not able to grant people eternal life now, but it never was able to – not even in Old Testament times!

The reason why this is important is because many Christian groups say things like this: “During Old Testament times, the way that people were granted eternal life was by following the entire Mosaic law but in the New Testament, the Mosaic law no longer has the ability to grant people eternal life.”

From what I can see, that statement is incorrect – because it appears that following the sacrificial system of the Mosaic law was never able to grant people eternal life – neither in Old Testament times, nor in New Testament times.

 

What does God actually want from us?

The passage above also states that God did not desire sacrifices – not even in the Old Testament. So, that raises a question: what did God desire of us in the Old Testament? Fortunately, there are many passages in the Old Testament which address that question; here are some examples:

Isaiah 1:16-17 (ESV):

16  Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17     learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow’s cause.

Amos 5:14-15 (ESV):

14  Seek good, and not evil,
that you may live;
and so the Lord, the God of hosts, will be with you,
as you have said.
15  Hate evil, and love good,
and establish justice in the gate;
it may be that the Lord, the God of hosts,
will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

Micah 6:8 (ESV):

He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

Hosea 6:6 (ESV):

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

All of the above passages were written between the time of Moses, and the time of Jesus. Many Christian churches assert that during that period of time, God explicitly required people to make animal sacrifices, in order to be granted eternal life. However, from the passages above, it certainly appears that even during that period of time, God did not desire sacrifices. Instead, He desired that people love and honor God, and love and do justice to their neighbor.

As it turns out, Jesus also gave us a “summary” of what God desires of us from the Old Testament:

Matthew 22:34-40 (ESV):

34  But when the Pharisees heard that he [Jesus] had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35  And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40  On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Jesus told us that the entire Mosaic law depends on loving God, and loving one’s neighbor. This is the same type of information that the prophets gave us – and the apostles continued teaching those same two commands.

In other words, what God has always desired from us is that we love Him, and love our neighbors! This has been true throughout all of human history.

 

What about the other two meanings of salvation?

As mentioned above, there are three different meanings of the term “salvation”. One of those meanings – being granted eternal life – was discussed above. So, what about the other two meanings of salvation – being granted a long mortal life, and being granted military victory over enemies?

First, let’s take a look at “meaning 2” – being granted a long mortal life, during this age. Part of the Mosaic law states that people must be punished, if they break any of the tenets of the law. In some cases, that punishment involves executing the offender. Here is an example of this:

Numbers 15:32-36 (ESV):

32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34  They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.

In the above passage, a man was executed for breaking one of the Mosaic law’s regulations – in this case, the prohibition against working on the Sabbath. As a result, that man did not have a long mortal life – instead, his life was ended prematurely, because he did not follow the Mosaic law.

Of course, people are not executed for working on the Sabbath now – in other words, the Mosaic law is not being “enforced” now. So, it certainly appears that the following is true:

In Old Testament times, it was necessary for people to follow the Mosaic law, in order to have a long mortal life. However, that is not true any longer – it is not necessary to follow the Mosaic law, in order to have a long mortal life now.

In other words, the Mosaic law did have an effect on “meaning 2” of salvation in the Old Testament – but it apparently does not have that effect in the New Testament.

 

The final meaning of salvation – “meaning 3” – deals with military victories over national enemies. There are many, many examples in the Old Testament, of the Israelites’ success – or failure – in battle being determined by their obedience to the law. In other words, if the Israelites do follow the law, then they are granted victory in battle – but if they do not obey the law, then they are defeated.

There are no examples in Scripture of any other countries having their military success being determined by their obedience to the Mosaic law, though. In other words, “meaning 3” of salvation appears to be exclusively related to the Israelites – not to any other group of people. This makes sense, since God only gave the Israelites the task of possessing the land of Canaan – and he only told the Israelites that their success in battle was related to following the Mosaic law. (In some cases, God caused other countries to conquer the Israelites – but that is always because the Israelites, themselves, had turned away from the Mosaic law.)

So, it appears that “meaning 3” of salvation exclusively refers to the Israelites following the Mosaic law – i.e., it does not apply to any other groups of people.

 

Is there any benefit at all, to following any aspects of the Mosaic law?

As mentioned above, it appears to me that the Mosaic law – at least, the sacrificial system of it – was never able to grant anyone eternal life. So, the next question that arises is: “Is there any benefit at all, to following any of the Mosaic law’s regulations?”

Most Christian groups believe that there is no benefit, of any kind, to following any part of the Mosaic law. However, is that really true? Let’s examine some of the regulations in the Mosaic law, to determine if they can be beneficial or not.

 

First of all, consider the “clean and unclean” food laws that are contained in the Mosaic law. There are many of those laws, of course; but the two most famous regulations are as follows:

– In order for a fish to be considered clean, it needs to have both fins and scales.

– In order for a land animal to be considered clean, it needs to chew its cud and have cloven (split) hooves.

As a result, salmon, cod and halibut are Biblically clean fish; but shrimp, lobster and catfish are not clean. This is because shrimp and lobster (and all other shellfish) do not have fins or scales. Catfish have fins, but they do not have scales.

Similarly, bulls, sheep, and deer are Biblically clean land animals; but pigs, horses and dogs are not. Horses and dogs do not have cloven hooves, and they do not chew their cud. Pigs do have cloven hooves, but they do not chew their cud.

So, the question is – is there any benefit at all, to following the Biblical “clean and unclean” food laws?

It appears to me that there are at least two definite benefits to following those laws. First of all, many of the animals which are considered unclean are classified as “scavengers”. Catfish, pigs, and shellfish all fall into that category. (Scavengers are also known as “bottom feeders”.)

Scavengers eat almost anything that they can find – garbage, carcasses, slop, and even excrement. Also, everything that a scavenger eats eventually gets transformed into muscle tissue in the animal. So, if we eat a scavenger animal, then we are consuming items that that animal, itself, consumed. This is very unhealthy for humans, since many of the items that scavengers eat cause them to be toxic to humans.

The fact that eating scavengers is unhealthy to us is borne out by many studies. For example, research has shown that shellfish contain extremely high levels of mercury – far higher levels than fish that have fins and scales – and mercury is incredibly toxic to humans. Also, studies have demonstrated that pig products have an extremely high risk of transmitting parasitic diseases – such as cholera and trichinellosis.

As a result, one benefit of following the Mosaic food laws is that it allows people to avoid eating scavenger animals – and therefore, to avoid the health risks associated with eating them.

Some other unclean animals are not scavengers, though. Some examples of unclean animals that are not scavengers are horses, dogs and cats. The animals in this group have traits that make them ideal companions for humans – they are intelligent, loyal and affectionate to humans. (In fact, people, themselves, typically form emotional bonds to those animals.)

So, it appears to me that another benefit of following the Mosaic food laws is that it demonstrates the special significance of animals that are ideal human companions.

 

Another famous regulation from the Mosaic law is the Sabbath rest. Basically, the Mosaic law prohibits people from working on the seventh day (the Sabbath) of every week. Instead, people are required to rest, and focus on God, on that day.

So, is there any benefit at all, to following the Sabbath rest regulations? Well, many people have very demanding, stressful jobs – and therefore, taking a break from one’s job, for at least one day of the week, can be extremely beneficial in preventing “burnout”. (Interestingly, the medical community is finally beginning to acknowledge the dangers of long term stress.)

Not only that, but dedicating a one day of the week to focus on God – rather than on our jobs – can also have spiritual benefits. Basically, observing the Sabbath allows us to dedicate that day to worshiping God, and learning about Him – as opposed to being concerned with our daily lives.

Of course, we should  definitely learn about God, and worship Him, on every day of the week – but working at a job, and taking care of daily activities, dramatically limits the amount of time that we can dedicate to God.  Not only that, but from my experience, in many cases people can get completely “caught up” in their daily lives – and therefore, they can end up not dedicating any significant amount of time to God, on any day of the week.

So, observing the Sabbath ensures that we dedicate at least one day of every week, to focus on our Heavenly Father.

 

A third regulation of the Mosaic law, which is familiar to most people, is that of circumcision. The Mosaic law states that every baby boy needs to be circumcised, on the eighth day after he is born. (This regulation actually pre-dates the Mosaic law – it was originally given to Abraham; and it was later incorporated into the Mosaic law, at Mt. Sinai.)

So, are there any benefits at all, to following the circumcision regulation? As it turns out, circumcision can significantly reduce the risk of venereal disease. This is especially true in very poor areas, that do not have much access to modern disinfectants. In some cases, circumcision can also increase fertility.

Also note that the Mosaic law explicitly specifies that babies be circumcised on the eighth day after they are born – as opposed to immediately after birth (as is common now). An interesting point to note about this is that a newborn baby’s blood does not coagulate (or clot) particularly well; but the coagulation ability increases each day after birth – and the coagulation strength peaks on the eighth day! This means that waiting until a baby is eight days old before circumcising him will decrease the risk of hemorrhaging – and it also indicates that God had specific reasons for why He specified the Mosaic law as He did.

So, circumcision does provide some specific medical benefits – and it is safest if it is done eight days after a baby is born (as specified in the Mosaic law.)

 

Conclusion

The apostle Paul made quite a few statements in Scripture, about the Mosaic law. One of the most famous of those statements (from Romans 6:14) is the following: “we are not under the law, but grace”.

From my experience, most Christians assume that Paul’s “not under the law” statement means the following:

“In Old Testament times, it was necessary to keep the Mosaic law, in order to be granted eternal life. However, in New Testament times, it is no longer necessary to keep the law, to gain eternal life.”

However, from what I can see in the book of Hebrews, the above statement is not correct. From Hebrews 10, it appears that the keeping the Mosaic law – with its system of animal sacrifices – was never able to grant people eternal life – neither in New Testament times, nor in Old Testament times!

So, if Paul is not speaking about eternal life, then what is he speaking about, when he states that “we are not under the law”? As it turns out, there are several different meanings of “salvation” in Scripture. One of those meanings refers to being granted eternal life. Another, separate meaning refers to being granted a long mortal life, during this age – i.e., being saved from premature mortal death.

There are many examples in the Old Testament, of people being executed because they did not keep the Mosaic law. The example in Numbers 15 – of a man being executed for working on the Sabbath – is one of the most dramatic examples of this. Of course, in our current time, no one is executed any longer, simply because they did not keep the Sabbath.

As a result, it appears to me that when Paul states “we are not under the law”, he is referring to the fact that we are not going to be executed, for failing to keep the law properly. In other words, we are not under condemnation of the law.

To put it another way, during Old Testament times, it was necessary to keep the Mosaic law, in order to avoid premature death – due to the threat of execution. However, that threat of execution is no longer in place – and in that sense, we are “not under the law” any longer.

 

Paul also makes makes statements about some of the specific tenets of the Mosaic law. For example, in 1 Corinthians 7:19, he states that “circumcision is nothing”; and in Romans 14:14, he states that “nothing (no type of food) is unclean in itself”. From what I have seen, most mainstream Christian churches take those statements to mean the following:

“There is no benefit whatsoever, to following any of the Mosaic law’s regulations.”

However, modern science – as well as practical experience – has demonstrated to me that there actually are significant benefits, to following some of the Mosaic law’s regulations. Consider some examples:

– Observing the food laws allows us to avoid significant mercury poisoning and parasitic disease risks;

– Observing the Sabbath allows us to avoid stress-related risks, and ensures that we dedicate at least one day per week to God;

– Observing the circumcision regulations allows us to minimize venereal disease risks, and allows it to be performed in the safest way possible.

 

So, when Paul says “circumcision is nothing” and “nothing is unclean in itself”, he certainly is not claiming that there is no benefit to following those laws – because there plainly are benefits to following them. Instead, Paul is evidently referring to the fact that following the Mosaic law is not required for eternal life – which is exactly the point made above.

Overall, it appears to me that following the Mosaic law regulations – at least, the regulations that it is possible to follow today – is for our benefit. In other words, if we follow those regulations, we will generally have happier, healthier lives than we would have had otherwise. I think this is what Jesus was referring to in Mark 2:27, when he said: “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath”. In other words, following the Sabbath (and some of the other regulations) is for our benefit.

 

Here is an overall summary of this post:

– Some Christian groups believe that following all 613 regulations in the Mosaic law is required, in order to be granted eternal life.

– Some other Christian groups believe that the Mosaic law is completely obsolete – so that there is no benefit in following any of its 613 regulations.

 

As it turns out, I disagree with both of the above statements. My response to those statements is as follows:

– Following the Mosaic law was never required for eternal life – not even in the Old Testament. However, in the Old Testament, it was required to follow the law, in order to avoid being executed. (That threat of execution does not exist today.)

– Modern science has demonstrated that there are some very definite practical benefits, to following certain aspects of the Mosaic law. This scientific evidence also shows us that God has reasons for the rules He gives us.

 

So, from the above two points, my overall belief on the “Mosaic law and salvation” subject is as follows:

Following the Mosaic law – at least, the parts of it that we can follow – is recommended; but it is not required. In other words, since certain aspects of the law promote our physical and spiritual health, it appears to me that God would want us to follow those regulations – and certainly, we should all try to do what God wants of us. However, following the Mosaic law is definitely not required, in order to gain eternal life – and it never was required.

 

35 Responses to “Salvation and the Mosaic Law”

  1. on 29 Feb 2012 at 10:23 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi Brian,
    Thanks for another great article. I especially liked it where you said, “So, observing the Sabbath ensures that we dedicate at least one day of every week, to focus on our Heavenly Father.”

    I agree completely. People get so busy in their lives, working, raising children, cooking and cleaning, etc… that they don’t have to time to reflect on our Father and His marvelous creation. Setting one day a week aside to contemplate God and everything that He has done for us is a marvelous thing. Resting one day a week also helps to reduce the build up of stress in our lives.

    I’ve been a Sabbath keeper for many years now. I had no idea that you were also a Sabbath keeper. I thought that I was the only one on this site (since Robert left). Of course I am not legalistic about it. For instance I will do small jobs like washing the dishes or whatever and I have no problem with helping someone on the Sabbath (even though it is suppose to be a day of rest). I think that by helping someone you are honoring God’s commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves.

    I”m sure that God would not be legalistic and would be pleased that I helped someone out… 🙂

  2. on 29 Feb 2012 at 11:42 pmXavier

    Brian

    it appears that the keeping the Mosaic law – with its system of animal sacrifices – was never able to grant people eternal life…during Old Testament times, it was necessary to keep the Mosaic law, in order to avoid premature death – due to the threat of execution

    These are paradoxical statements because to keep Torah meant having life in this age and by implication life in the age to come; but to not keep Torah meant a “premature death” in this age and by implication in the age to come.

  3. on 29 Feb 2012 at 11:50 pmXavier

    Furthermore, alot of people make the distinction between salvation and obedience when it comes to this topic. For example, the Bible says that salvation comes through obedience. In the case of Christians, Jesus “became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” [Heb 5.9].

    And where are Jesus or Paul going around saying, ‘Torah is not required BUT recommended’. 😛

  4. on 01 Mar 2012 at 4:57 amWolfgang

    Xavier,

    … because to keep Torah meant having life in this age and by implication life in the age to come; but to not keep Torah meant a “premature death” in this age and by implication in the age to come.

    So you are saying that in our day and time requirement for salvation (receiving eternal life) is “keeping the Torah”, in other words “righteousness comes through the works of the Law” ?
    Your use of “in this age” and “in the age to come” is rather unclear in light of linking these to the Torah … does Scripture not give specifics as to the time when the Torah was given and until when it was in effect?

  5. on 01 Mar 2012 at 9:09 amWolfgang

    Xavier,

    And where are Jesus or Paul going around saying, ‘Torah is not required BUT recommended’. 😛

    Paul did not go around and “recommend” the Law, or did he? But neither did he go around and “require” the Law, or where did Paul say “Torah is required …”?
    However, Paul did write a few things regarding the Law, such as the following:

    Rom 3:20-22 (KJV)
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    What do you think, this means: “by the deeds [works] of the Law shall no flesh be justified in his [God’s] sight “, and “now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested” ?

  6. on 03 Mar 2012 at 9:19 amJoshua

    Hey, all!

    Is it possible to distinguished the ceremonial laws and the moral laws?

    Could “ceremonial laws” be defined as diet and temple regulations?

    If so, those don’t need to be followed today because there is no temple. And they weren’t really binding because there were variations / updates as Israel moved out of desert economy living to the Promised Land.

    That would leave “moral” laws, the laws that we are bound to still to this day (about our conduct to God, our spouse, and other people), which we fulfill through the empowering of the spirit.

    Thoughts?

  7. on 03 Mar 2012 at 9:25 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi Joshua,
    I think that I would probably be in the minority among this group, but I agree with what you are saying. I don’t believe that morality changes from one generation to another. I personally believe that the “10 Commandments”, the commandments/teachings of Y’shua, and the modified form of Noah’s law found in Acts 15:19-21 are still binding on us till this day.

    “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, (20) but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. (21) For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

    This is of course is just my own humble opinion…

  8. on 04 Mar 2012 at 10:21 amtimothy

    Doubting Thomas

    Happy Sabbath my faithful brother Thomas.( i just checked and could not find anywhere that the word doubt was used in regards to Thomas Didymus.
    Didymus is his surname and translates “twin”.

    you wrote “and the modified form of Noah’s law found in Acts 15:19-21 are still binding on us till this day.”

    Acts 15:
    15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
    21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

    Genesis 9:
    4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

    Thomas(i am not trying to be funny), does it say anywhere in the above
    or anywhere else in scriptures that one should not do all possible to save lives? I am referring to giving blood during operations, treating trauma and even some snakebite victims.

    the majority of American casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan bleed to death. That is why our currant first aid packets have a blood stopper powder.

    I agree that the “commandment” given to Noah, hundreds of years before 10 commandments, was about not eating bloody meat. So maybe “well done” really is still the best taste.
    (if you dare, google:*blood in acts 15:20,29*)

    IMHO

  9. on 04 Mar 2012 at 2:13 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi timothy,
    I hope you had a happy Sabbath as well. I am not against blood transfusions. I don’t think that is what the modified Noahide law is talking about. I think it is talking about eating blood. In England and other countries blood pudding is consumed on special occasions. I believe that this violates the decision reached at the council of Jerusalem. I actually like my steak “medium well” myself… 😉

    I know that the disciple Thomas was never actually called Doubting Thomas in the scriptures, but he has come to be known by that name. My real name is Tom Thurlow, but many of my Christian friends call me Doubting Thomas because of my doubts about the Trinity, and because of my doubts about whether certain books and letters should have been included in our N.T. canon. It is just my nick-name. I actually like it, because it describes my nature.

    I’m a skeptical person by nature. I have been like that ever since I was a young child…

  10. on 04 Mar 2012 at 5:07 pmtimothy

    Doubting Thomas,

    Thank you for pointing out our Noahide law. I did not remember reading about GOD speaking to Noah over not eating anything or about eating at all. I do read about Abram/Abraham very much, but always start with him being in Ur.(i’m going to cut/paste a lot here):

    Genesis 9:
    3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

    4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

    5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.

    6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    This is before Pentecost and Melchizedek.

    Acts 10:
    11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

    12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

    13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

    14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

    15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

    16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

    This was after Pentecost.

    I need to work things of the scriptures before i become fully persuaded too. Make it your own. there is too much ‘commentary’ that contradicts.

    Tom, would you like to write between the lines, with the above verses. Also about any law to eat fish on Friday.

  11. on 04 Mar 2012 at 11:42 pmDoubting Thomas

    timothy,
    From what I understand the prohibition about eating meat (other than fish) on Friday is an R.C. tradition. At one time the R.C. church was telling it’s followers which days it was alright to engage in sexual relations and which days it was not alright. From what I can see the R.C. church is very much about power politics and about controlling every aspect of their followers lives. None of this stuff is of course biblical.

    Peter was the one who experienced the dream that you mentioned. It has been interpreted by some to mean that we are allowed to eat anything, but I think it is clear that Peter didn’t interpret the dream this way. After all it was Peter and the apostles and all the elders of the Jerusalem church that came up with the decision that was reached at the council of Jerusalem that forbade eating blood, and eating animals that were strangled, and eating animals that were sacrificed to idols. So I would rather go with Peter’s interpretation then with what other people say this dream may have meant.

    You can google the “Noahide law” and see for yourself, but from I have read the law of Noah (or Noahide law) was in existence long before Y’shua and the apostles appeared on the scene. Righteous Gentiles had always been allowed to enter into the outer area of the temple. Righteous Gentiles were defined as Gentiles that didn’t follow the Law of Moses, but did follow the “10 Commandments”, and were also required to follow the “Noahide law”.

    The “Noahide law” was slightly different than the decision reached at the council of Jerusalem. That’s why I have been saying that the decision at the council of Jerusalem is a modified form of Noah’s law. Even to this day the Jews require that righteous Gentiles must follow the “Noahide law”. It is something that is a Jewish tradition and you are of course correct in pointing out that most Christians don’t know anything about it. They don’t even realize that the decision reached at the council of Jerusalem was a modified form of Noah’s law.

    I’m not sure where the “Noahide law” originated since it is not mentioned in our modern bibles, but it is talked about in history books and such…

  12. on 05 Mar 2012 at 1:06 pmtimothy

    Doubting Thomas,

    Hello Thomas, you are correct that Googles has a lot to read about the RC regulations. They seem to change as time goes on. “Good Friday”,the day Jesus died, is where the fish no meat ordinance came. I can remember, in junior high school, the RC classmates having the special meal available on Fridays.

    Now, in my old age and as a bible student, i see that Jesus died at ninth hour(3:00 pm) was buried. Three days and three nights later GOD raised him from the dead. Now, anyway one counts it, he did not die on Friday. Would you like to elaborate on this topic?

    I certainly agree with you about how Peter eventual interpreted the vision his comforter gave him thrice. The dream was about the gentiles coming to see him. They were considered unclean by the Hebrew people and GOD was telling Peter……. The first glimpse of the “mystery” that gentiles would also receive “holy spirit” and become christians too.

    Ephesians 3:1–21
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:….

    This link was on my facebook from Sir Anthoney Buzzard:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YfSDSqhhcRY#!

    The “Noahide law” is something new to me and google seems to have some good information. Thanks for you great reply Thomas!

  13. on 05 Mar 2012 at 4:35 pmtimothy

    Doubting Thomas,

    I think that knowing the “truth” about when Jesus died is more important than RC mythology. After thinking about how to share with you(and not knowing what you currently believe) which day details, my thinking is that lhim Kingdom Studies vol 2 page 235 has many details to help.

    Also i found this thorough explanation with some graphics. http://ad2004.com/prophecytruths/Articles/Prophecy/3days3nights.html

    I have two friends who are twins from a JW father. One is a loyal JW and the other was spoiled with all the hype his from father and brother. He was bitten by a cottonmouth water moccasin and would have died(IMHO) if his wife had not made sure he was given a lot of blood transfusions along with the anti venom shots.

  14. on 05 Mar 2012 at 6:00 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi timothy,
    Thanks for your response. From what I understand Y’shua died on the Wednesday and was raised on the Saturday (the Sabbath). Apparently there was another Sabbath (probably a yearly Sabbath) that occurred on the Thursday or Friday. I’m not too knowledgeable about the yearly Sabbaths, but from what I understand it was not that unusual to have more than one Sabbath during a week. It would happen several times a year. I watched the video with Sir Anthony, but I just don’t agree with some of Paul’s teachings in regards to the law.

    I have a friend (Jaco) who is an ex-J.W. and he has enlightened me on what they actually believe and teach. I would possibly consider going to a Kingdom Hall since their beliefs are very close to mine, but I disagree with their teaching that Y’shua was the archangel Michael and their teaching about shunning former members and about celebrating birthdays. Apparently if you disagree with them (even on a minor doctrine) then your family and friends are not allowed to talk with you (even to say Hi) until such time as you repent and ask for forgiveness.

    In my opinion all of these things are non-biblical and the shunning business goes against the very basic teachings of Christianity (to love one another even if you might disagree on doctrine). There were a couple of other things that I disagreed with as well, but I can’t remember off the top of my head what they were. I currently don’t attend a church. My church consists of on-line Christian friends that I talk with. Some are preterists some are Trinitarian, but most of them are Biblical Unitarians (Socinians) just like myself.

    I don’t think doctrine is as important as most people make it out to be. I believe the important thing is to have a heart after our Father and to love God and love one another. Both God and Y’shua can look into our hearts and know if we are sincere or not. They can’t be fooled by phony outward appearances. I don’t consider myself to be a teacher or anything like that. I’m just a humble student of Christ who likes to talk with other humble students of Christ. I”m turned off by people that are aggressive and forceful with their beliefs. It seems to me that these people don’t have a heart after God.

    I enjoy discussing (sharing) my beliefs with anyone that is interested, but I’m not the least bit interested in arguing or debating my beliefs. I do my best to keep an open mind and I never try to force my beliefs on to others. BTW – I’m glad to hear that your friends wife forced him to get a blood transfusion. I think that this idea that transfusions are the same thing as eating blood is non-biblical and just plain silly… 🙂

  15. on 05 Mar 2012 at 7:12 pmtimothy

    Doubting Thomas,

    Sure happy to be knowing you. Also glad that you can see from scriptures about Friday not being the correct. Funny they can count 1-2-3 gods but not 1-2-3 days!

    I do my Church on line with lhim because thirty years ago the founder was my favorite teacher and today he is even better. And seems that all, including this blog is geared around becoming KR.

    Jaco is a brilliant scholar and aggressive, as evidenced by his blow by blow with Dr AG. He has a way with the S. African style of English. I have seen much of what he confesses to believe and can imagine how his JW discussions must have been.

    I know several JW and finally told them that we are to have unity…..so
    at least we can start with our,radical, believing that Jesus Christ is not GOD and i absolutely do not hold to many things you believe.Especialy that no one knows when Jesus is coming back and that the bible says I am a witness for the Lord Jesus Christ. And GODs name is really YAHWEH. The letter “J” has only been around for several hundred years.

    Thanks for your fellowship. 8)

  16. on 05 Mar 2012 at 11:05 pmJerryB

    Hi Brian.
    I was going to lurk a while and read some more of the content here before jumping into a discussion, but your article piqued my curiosity, especially since it deals with a topic that I’ve been wrangling with for about 8 years now.
    You state that keeping the Mosaic law was never able to give anyone eternal life. I’m curious then how you interpret Matthew 19:16-19. This is the first usage of the phrase “eternal life” in the New Testament. The passage also uses the terms “saved” and Kingdom of heaven” in the same context indicating some degree of synonymous usage of these terms.
    Similar records of this exchange are found in Mark 10:17-30 and Luke 18:18 – 30.

    A man asked Jesus what to do to inherit eternal life and Jesus told him to keep the Law, then paraphrased the Ten Commandments.

    Here’s the point. If Jesus spoke of the Commandments as the guide to eternal life, to being saved, and to entering the kingdom of heaven, doesn’t that support the notion that, at least at one time in history the Law was the criterion for salvation?

    JerryB

  17. on 05 Mar 2012 at 11:50 pmDoubting Thomas

    timothy,
    Thank you for caring enough to ask me about my beliefs. I find most people usually just want to label other people so they don’t have to bother to get to know exactly what the other person believes. I guess it’s much easier to just label someone. I really don’t fit perfectly into any man made label. I believe everything that the Socinians do, but I have a few additional beliefs that they would disagree with.

    I am an original created by God, and my beliefs are constantly evolving and changing… 🙂

  18. on 06 Mar 2012 at 3:46 amBrian Keating

    Hi Jerry,

    Thanks for your question. From what I can see, the actions that will allow us to gain eternal life are basically: To love God; and to love our neighbors. This was true both in Old Testament times, as well as in New Testament times – since both the prophets and Jesus emphasized those items.

    The passage that you mentioned – Matthew 19:16-19 – actually appears to lend support to the above idea. This is because the exact commands that Jesus mentioned – do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, etc – are commands that deal with loving our neighbors. To put it another way, if we break those commands, then that demonstrates that we do not love our neighbors.

    With that being said, one of the central parts of the Mosaic Law was the system of animal sacrifices. From what we can see in Hebrews 10, those animal sacrifices were never able to forgive people’s sins. So, since our sins need to be forgiven in order for us to gain eternal life, that tells me that the Mosaic Law’s sacrificial system was never able to provide eternal life to anyone – neither in Old Testament times, nor in New Testament times.

    So, the overall point I’m trying to make here is as follows:

    The basic actions that allow people to obtain eternal life are: loving God, and loving one’s neighbor. This has been true throughout all of history.

    Some parts of the Mosaic Law – such as not committing murder, honoring one’s parents, etc – are concerned with loving one’s neighbor. As a result, those specific commands are required for salvation – and they always were. (In fact, those types of commands pre-date the Mosaic Law.)

    However, other parts of the law – such as, animal sacrifices – do not deal with loving one’s neighbor. As a result, those specific commandments were never required for salvation – not even in Old Testament times. This presumably explains why Hosea 6:6 states: “For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
    the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.”

    Does this make sense? (As it turns out, I have been wrangling with this issue for a number of years as well…)

    Brian

  19. on 09 Mar 2012 at 6:18 amJoseph

    As I can see from the many replies here, the Law topic can be very confusing to wrap ones head around. It can also be a very emotional subject as it pertains to salvation issues. No one likes to be told they are wrong, or think they could be wrong, on issues dealing with reward and salvation. I believe the height of the confusion is based on two main questions:

    1. Where do goyim (non-Jews) fit into the fold of law and salvation?
    2. How do we interpret the NT (mainly Paul’s letters) in light of the OT law/traditions?

    If anyone is interested, I and a friend of mine who take a pro-Torah stance debated on this topic with a few others awhile back ago. For the sake of being redundant here is a link to the blog post. It’s about 100 comments long, so poor yourself some coffee and get cozy… http://lhim.org/blog/2011/07/13/the-kingdom-and-your-response/

    Please post back here if you have any questions/disagreements or incite about what was debated upon.

  20. on 09 Mar 2012 at 6:20 amJoseph

    *insight…. it’s late. 🙂

  21. on 09 Mar 2012 at 9:43 pmJerryB

    “Does that make sense”?
    I guess it depends on how the term “righteousness” is interpreted in relation to eternal life. Deuteronomy 6:25 (as I’m sure you know) says that, after the Ten Commandments were delivered to Israel, they summed up the hearing thereof by saying

    “And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.”

    In the immediate context, there is a reference to testimonies commandments, and statutes, which indicates that they were required to more than just love God and love their neighbors.

    6:17 “Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.”

    Note the use of the conjunction and in front of each one. According to E.W. Bullinger, that indicates that each item in the list is important. They were expected to observe them all. A bit farther on, (6:24) it does connect the performing of these commandments, and testimonies and statutes with the avoidance of condemnation, as you mentioned above. So I see where you’re getting the notion that one aspect of “salvation” is being spared a premature demise, although I hadn’t thought of it that way before.

    The central question then is, do we equate the righteousness that was imputed to them by keeping the commandments and testimonies and statutes of the Law as equivalent only to being spared from death or is it more than that?

    JerryB

  22. on 10 May 2012 at 9:40 amPatrick from Belgium, in Mexico now :-)

    Shalom to all,

    I was looking into clarifications about clean and unclean animals, and therefor food and stumbled upon this site.

    I was nicely surprised to encounter this view about the OT and more specifically the Torah.

    Praised be our Father that we are getting little by little on His track again 🙂
    That’s what I and others surely believe.
    Until restoration of all things… (Paul in Act 3:21)

    In GENESIS 1 and 2 we can find some basic explanation about Creation and the Seventh Day.
    I have a little basic study posted on Youtube:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLk5lNUPtNI

    I hope you allow me to post the link. It’s also there in Spanish:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCfC2uSpGvo

    And I’m preparing what I think will be a VERY enlightening (Sorry… 🙂 study on the vision of Peter in Acts 10 and 11.
    Will post a link when ready, if you allow me.

    Greetings from Mexico.

  23. on 06 Aug 2012 at 1:15 pmRON

    Salvation is Acts 2:38. I hope you obey it.

    (John 3:1 KJV) “There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:”

    (John 3:2 KJV) “The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

    (John 3:3 KJV) “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    (John 3:4 KJV) “Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”

    (John 3:5 KJV) “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    (John 3:6 KJV) “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

    (John 3:7 KJV) “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”

    (John 3:8 KJV) “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

    (John 3:9 KJV) “Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?”

    (John 3:10 KJV) “Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?”

    (John 3:11 KJV) “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”

    (John 3:12 KJV) “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?”

    (John 3:13 KJV) “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

    (John 3:14 KJV) “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:”

    (John 3:15 KJV) “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

    (John 3:16 KJV) “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

    What Jesus has said if u believe u will be born again of the water and His Spirit, note that Jesus told Nic this ,but He didnt tell him how?

    Cause He left that up to Peter and the rest of the Apostles at Pentecost.

    (Acts 2:36 KJV) “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

    (Acts 2:37 KJV) “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

    (Acts 2:38 KJV) “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

    (Acts 2:39 KJV) “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

    (Acts 2:40 KJV) “And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.”

    (Acts 2:41 KJV) “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”

    (Acts 2:42 KJV) “And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”

    (Acts 2:43 KJV) “And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.”

  24. on 06 Aug 2012 at 2:46 pmtimothy

    Ron

    AMEN!!!!!

    Timothy 🙂

  25. on 06 Aug 2012 at 6:38 pmLorraine

    JerryB, Well, in Deuteronomy 32:45-47, Moses expressed that the law is our life, to prolong our days, and also in Isaiah 53:10 of the servant, even he too is said to ‘prolong’ his days, so therefore, this law is to benefit us, not so much as to be punished to death if we don’t do them, but then again, it will be the road to premature death, if one does not do them, for they are the way to live righteously, peacefully, and healthy among nations of people. This is why we are living in such suffering times today, we insist on doing, or living anyway we want to, and as YHWH knows what is best for us, His creation, these are the consequences to bare. This will not be the fault of YHWH, it will be, and it is our own fault when we perish one way, or another from not obeying this law.

    According to Isaiah 56, we are all expected to do the law, the commandments, the sabbath, and the passover in Exodus 12, to live a wholesome life for all, not just a selected few. This only promotes: greed, in difference, hate, imposed poverty, adultery, stealing, war, injustice, prejudice, perversion, etc. etc. exactly what we have today that makes it all go wrong just when you start to think that its all fine, or okay. YHWH Bless.

  26. on 06 Aug 2012 at 6:44 pmLorraine

    JerryB, Oh yes I forgot on and premature illnesses, or illnesses period. We have carried these plights for generations from not living in the law, the righteousness, the peace is all YHWH wants for us, but we have our own plan to demise most of the time. Not thinking of others, and selfishness, and pride, is our demise.

  27. on 06 Aug 2012 at 7:17 pmLorraine

    Patrick, I do think that YHWH our creator wants us to definitely eat clean animals, and not the blood, or fat of any animal for this is not good for you. You can find this in Deuteronomy 14, and Leviticus 11.

    The Sabbath, is on Saturday, for everyone knows that Sunday is the first day of the week, look it up. This day is a day of honor for YHWH, for all He has done for us, and to praise unto this day, making it holy by being humble, and either reading, stuyding, or discussing this book and its’ scriptures among each other, or alone, it should be an honor to us as well, to be in glee for Him, and what He has done for us.

    I was told that jesus did rose on Sunday because he knew that the Sabbath day was on a Saturday, and it was a day of rest. lol, although, I do not condone this idol as being a son of YHWH. For I read for myself that in Exodus 4:22,23 this is the only son, and even the ‘firstborn’ son of YHWH, read it, and it is the chosen people “Israel” the Hebrew Yisraelites, who came out of Egypt. Everything was originally wrote with ‘Ys’ and all consonants in those days.

    But, yes the Sabbath is still important, and many are not aware, or they know but don’t want to do it. As is prophesied in Isaiah 56, it is for all nations, all people. YHWH also calls His son, and firstborn, Jacob, Jeserun, Jerusalem. They all should begin with a Y, just as YHWHs name is. Look in the back of any so called bible, the name YHWH is there, and the bible was in those days named ‘the book of remembrance’ in Malachi 3:16.

  28. on 10 Nov 2012 at 6:39 pmJas

    Brian
    I am really enjoying reading your articles.
    I 100% agree that the Mosaic covenant did not promise eternal life, nor did the sacrifices that Able,Noah, Abraham and all those before the Mosaic. I believe eternal life was spoken of and shown to Abraham when God promised all families of the earth would be blessed by his Seed. The Seed in that promise was Jesus who redeemed mankind from the certain death of never being raised for judgement.
    I also agree that the Mosaic Covenant only provided for a prolonged life in the land promised to Abraham. Now understanding this only meaning their ancient life without considering that Abraham can only receive his promise if God prolongs his life by the resurrection of the dead would be a very big oversight.
    I believe eternal life is a product of judgement and judgement is a product of Grace which is given freely without condition to all families of the earth. Everyone will be judged by their deeds which because Grace allows judgement this is real salvation

  29. on 12 Nov 2012 at 12:38 pmJas

    Brian
    You addressed what salvation meant in the OT but just what does it mean in the NT. Does all 3 meanings apply ?

    Romans 10:9
    That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    From this verse we find Salvation is guaranteed if you confess Jesus is lord and believe he was raised.
    This salvation is from eternal death and grants the person eternal life in the New Heaven and Earth

    Matthew 7
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    But in these verses Jesus says that just confessing him lord is not enough.
    This salvation is from being separated from people of the covenant and grants you a long life in the land promised to Abraham when this promise is finally received by Abraham

    Matthew:24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation 23 – spoken about by Daniel the prophet – standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 24:16 then those in Judea must flee 24 to the mountains. 24:17 The one on the roof 25 must not come down 26 to take anything out of his house, 24:18 and the one in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 24:19 Woe 27 to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! 24:20 Pray 28 that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 24:21 For then there will be great suffering 29 unlike anything that has happened 30 from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

    This is salvation from death from invasion of armies. If this was the end days then fleeing would be senseless plus we know that the end does not come till all the things happen in these verses

    24:3 As 7 he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things 8 happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 24:4 Jesus answered them, 9 “Watch out 10 that no one misleads you. 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ 11 and they will mislead many. 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. 12 24:7 For nation will rise up in arms 13 against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines 14 and earthquakes 15 in various places. 24:8 All 16 these things are the beginning of birth pains.
    24:9 “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations 17 because of my name. 18 24:10 Then many will be led into sin, 19 and they will betray one another and hate one another. 24:11 And many false prophets will appear and deceive 20 many, 24:12 and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. 24:13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved. 21 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, 22 and then the end will come.

    Plus we know that in the end the invading armies will not prevail agianst Jerusalem but will be totally destroyed by God

  30. on 13 Nov 2012 at 6:54 amDr Ali

    Thanks brother Brian Keating for the article , a good analysis to a very sticky issue .God bless you .

    This article have indeed kept me pondering .I thank God for showing me this blog .

    Not even the article but comments are also brilliant !

    But brother Brain i have the following points which i think should be considered when dealing with this topic.

    A ) Jesus himself sought to bring Jews outside the rigid confines of Judaism , he taught what was necessary to be observed and what was unnecessary . That would have been it , why did then Paul took it ahead , when he himself should have stopped at the teachings of Jesus ?

    B ) Scholars agree that the view of Jesus on Judaical laws was different from that of Paul and we cant just undermine it .

    My notion is that Jesus was having a different view of Judaical Laws than Paul .We have to treat the message of Jesus in Gospels and that of Paul in his epistles differently , according to me they are not contradictory but at the same time not the same .

    I want to recommend these well written scholarly books on the same subject for brilliant in depth analysis.

    1) Paul, the law and the Jewish people by E.P Sanders

    2) James the brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenman

    3) The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ by Daniel Boyarin

    4 ) From Jesus to Paul by Joseph Klausner

    5 ) How Jesus became Christian by Barrie Wilson.

  31. on 13 Nov 2012 at 9:48 amtimothy

    Dr Ali,

    Nice to read your writings again.

    I always refresh my mind with the simple and basic scriptures from my Christian youth at age 39. This is actually the proximate order I received them.

    Jeremiah 2: (kjv, unless otherwise noted)
    13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

    Currently the Christian Church has become a world wide broken cistern with some claimed 30,000 plus denominational private interpretations of GODs word.

    Hosea 4:
    6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

    The world today, and even more especially so because of the internet, is nothing but informational knowledge. Yet a true knowledge of GOD is being distracted by the “private interpretations” of who GOD is and where our human kind, resurrected, Lord Jesus Christ resides.

    2 Timothy 3:
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    2 Timothy 4:
    1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

    2 Timothy 2:
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    All scriptures are “GOD breathed” and all means all without any exception. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are GOD breathed scriptures and contain the words Jesus spoke by revelation of GOD.

    2 Peter 1:
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Before his death, resurrection and departure Ascension, Jesus taught that he would send a parakletos to dwell with and in the Christian. That he would speak to the indwelt person and remind them of things he has spoken. Apostle Paul has written what he heard from Jesus.

    Galatians 1:
    12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Dr Ali you write:
    “B ) Scholars agree that the view of Jesus on Judaical laws was different from that of Paul and we cant just undermine it .

    My notion is that Jesus was having a different view of Judaical Laws than Paul .We have to treat the message of Jesus in Gospels and that of Paul in his epistles differently , according to me they are not contradictory but at the same time not the same .”

    To the contrary, Paul has written what he received by revelation from Jesus Christ. Actually, *GOD in Christ in Paul*

    **according to me they are not contradictory but at the same time not the same .”**

    This is your intellect talking and not any spiritual revelation.(IMHO) 🙂

    I have given you links to powerful teaching which would allow you, by your believing, to be baptized by Jesus Christ with holy spirit and receive into manifestation your own parakletos.

    You recommend: *I want to recommend these well written scholarly books on the same subject for brilliant in depth analysis.*

    I recommend that you submit to the “brilliants” of GOD in Jesus Christ and read and study the NT in light of GOD being the author. How much more wisdom has GOD given Jesus Christ?

    1 Kings 4:
    29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.

    This is what we are doing on KR blog:

    1 Corinthians 9:
    24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

    We continue to learn to be Kingdom Ready, and run the race with perseverance to reach the prize, the return of our Lord Jesus Christ and our new resurrected, spiritual body.

  32. on 13 Nov 2012 at 10:08 amSarah

    Dr. Ali,

    My notion is that Jesus was having a different view of Judaical Laws than Paul .We have to treat the message of Jesus in Gospels and that of Paul in his epistles differently…

    Would you please give a few examples of the differences you see between Jesus and Paul as it relates to the Law? Also, would you explain what you mean when you say we need to treat the message of Jesus and that of Paul differently: Why? And in what way?

  33. on 13 Nov 2012 at 9:41 pmJas

    “A ) Jesus himself sought to bring Jews outside the rigid confines of Judaism , he taught what was necessary to be observed and what was unnecessary . That would have been it , why did then Paul took it ahead , when he himself should have stopped at the teachings of Jesus ?”

    Dr Ali
    You are correct that Jesus sought to bring Jews outside the rigid confines of Judaism but only 2nd temple Judaism which had built hedges around the Law of God. Anywhere it seems that Jesus spoke against the Law you will find that none of them are actually found in the Law of Moses. Jesus calls them the Traditions of men. Paul was commissioned to preach the Gospel of Grace which came after Jesus redeemed ALL mankind from the sin of Adam as the Lamb of God making perfect all sacrifices for Adams sin from Able to Jesus. The 12 was to preach the goodnews of the renewed covenant to the Jews and the lost tribes(sheep) who were scattered amongst the Nations. So in truth there were 2 gospels one of reward of a prolonged life and Grace which was the gospel of the circumcision and one of only Grace which is the gospel of the uncircumcised which offered eternal life to all mankind.

    “We have to treat the message of Jesus in Gospels and that of Paul in his epistles differently , according to me they are not contradictory but at the same time not the same .”

    I agree

  34. on 25 Aug 2015 at 12:33 pmTheodore A. Jones

    The Way of salvation was perfected after the murder and ascension of Jesus Christ. The law was changed by adding the word REPENT into law. Heb. 7:12
    “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom. 2:13 The grace to allow an escape from serving the penalty of eternal death is predicated upon hearing and obeying REPENT regarding the sin of murdering of Jesus Christ. No man’s murder is a direct benefit.

  35. on 26 Aug 2015 at 12:35 pmJas

    Theodore
    Repenting was the central theme for the Gospel to Israel . Hebrews is very clear what changes were necessary which was a better sacrifice ,a High Priest who did not have offer a sacrifice for himself and a better Priesthood to teach and maintain those that entered into this special Covenant Relationship through the New Priesthood Covenant promised by God to Israel and Judah. The words which convicts are what brought people to both Priesthood Covenants. The difference in the New is accepting these words,being cleansed and receiving one of the 101 million Priest which function under the High Priest of the New Covenant .By doing this they would receive a prolonged life by physical resurrection into the Land Promised Abraham during Gods next Sabbath Rest.

  

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