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Below is a two-part YouTube presentation by Dr. Dale Tuggy, professor of philosophy at the State University of NY at Fredonia. This is a slightly modified version of the talk he gave at the recent Theological Conference near Atlanta, GA a few weeks ago. In it Tuggy’s razor sharp logic slices through many of the erroneous and unsound arguments commonly made by both trinitarians and unitarians. He argues that Jesus should be worshiped, and not just in a civic sense, but in a religious context. He employs careful reasoning to show that such an act is not idolatry. For Tuggy idolatry is not merely defined as worshiping a creature or worshiping anyone other than God, but worshiping someone or something in disobedience to God. Since God has exalted Jesus to his right hand and he has approved and wills that Jesus be honored, sung to, bowed to, etc., it is right to worship him. Worshiping Jesus is always done to the glory of God and so even if he is the direct object of worship, his Father is always the indirect object. This presentation deconstructed my previous position on this subject and erected in its place an understanding that is more robust, less pedantic, and quite freeing. Anyone interested in the question, “Should Christians Worship Jesus?” should watch these videos. If you prefer to get the audio instead, you can find the mp3s here.

68 Responses to “Should Christians Worship Jesus?”

  1. on 26 May 2012 at 9:04 pmSarah

    Thanks so much for sharing this, Sean. Professor Tuggy covered the topic with laser clarity in a top-notch video presentation. I had several “light bulb” moments throughout his lecture and I’d definitely recommend it to anyone struggling to sort out this issue.

  2. on 27 May 2012 at 2:31 amtimothy

    Sarah,

    IMHO these verses tell the story in GODs words.

    1 Corinthians 15:…..(nasb)
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

    24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

    25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

    26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

    27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “ All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

    28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

    reverence=deep respect for/regard or treat with respect

    worship=the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity/to perform act

    Timothy

  3. on 27 May 2012 at 8:30 amSean

    Timothy,

    Did you get a chance to watch the videos?

  4. on 27 May 2012 at 10:21 amXavier

    Thanks for the posts Sean.

    FYI very lively debate over at Dale’s blog on this issue: http://trinities.org/blog/archives/3829

    Also, check out our new vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnzac7yKZYg

  5. on 27 May 2012 at 10:52 amtimothy

    Sean,

    happy Pentecost birthday

    Yes I watched the two videos on 23 May and again just now 27 may.
    In 1960 I took an elective, critical thinking/introduction to logic, at UofM Florida. So the videos only sounded familar and what I believe comes from teachings by the guru VPW.

    Sean, I am fully persuaded [peithia] that:

    A) Jesus Christ is pure man[resurrected] and not GOD/YAHWEH

    B) Jesus Christ, only, has ascended to heaven…the dead are asleep.

    C) Christians have Jesus Christ/comforter spiritually within.

    1 Timothy 2:
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    When a Christian manifest holy spirit by speaking in tongues, is GOD
    being worshiped through Jesus Christ our mediator?

    Timothy

  6. on 27 May 2012 at 2:23 pmSarah

    One thought I had – isn’t Christ the visible image of the invisible God? When all creatures worship God and the Lamb as prophesied in the Revelation scene, wouldn’t it be true that they are only able to SEE the Lamb, and recognize his glorification as God’s presence IN him?

    I always thought of that scene in my head as two visible beings sitting side by side, but I’m wondering if that’s accurate. I know John saw a vision of God himself in this scene, but at the same time it is only a vision. If Jesus is God’s “face”, so to speak, then it seems to me that if one were to observe the scene unfold in reality it would appear much like the scene in 2 Chronicles where the people gathered in the temple and bowed before the visible King David and the invisible God.

  7. on 28 May 2012 at 1:08 pmtimothy

    Sarah,

    You wrote:
    “I know John saw a vision of God himself in this scene, but at the same time it is only a vision.”

    Revelations :1 (nasb)
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and [a]communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,[a Or signified]
    2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

    This vision has so much that may be either literal, figurative or as Johns mind would understand to write the vision.

    The 144,000 will be covered this Tuesday, 29 May, by my pastor in the current “The Final Words” class. So, I am faithful my teachers unraveling
    of the difficult book of Revelations will teach what we need to understand.

    In reference to the above post # 5, the following verses are part of my
    *energy of conviction*:

    John 4: (nasb)
    23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
    24 God is [e]spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” [e Or Spirit]

    John 14:
    16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another [b] Helper, that He may be with you forever;[b Gr Paracletos, one called alongside to help; or Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor]
    17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
    18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
    19 [c] After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.[c Lit Yet a little and the world]
    20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
    21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him.
    and will disclose Myself to him.”

    John 15:
    26 “When the [h] Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,[h Gr Paracletos, one called alongside to help; or Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor]
    27 [i]and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.[i Or (imperative) and bear witness]

    John 16:
    13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
    14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

    Acts 2:
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other [e]tongues, as the Spirit was giving them [f]utterance.
    [e Or languages] [f Or ability to speak out]

    http://lhim.org/resources/classes.php?id=32

    Timothy

  8. on 29 May 2012 at 4:59 amWolfgang

    Timothy,

    So the videos only sounded familar and what I believe comes from teachings by the guru VPW.

    ?? would you please elaborate on your comment ? how do those videos give you the impression that the content “comes from teachings by the guru VPW”? Did VPW really promote worshipping Jesus in a religious sense (such as one would be “worshipping” God)? Did VPW promote worship of Jesus similar to what is propagated in the video as worship in a sense of “direct worship of Jesus >> indirect worship of God” ?

  9. on 29 May 2012 at 8:33 amXavier

    Wolfgang

    How was the recent Euro conference?

  10. on 29 May 2012 at 10:02 amWolfgang

    Xavier,

    if you are referring to the recent conference of various believers with the Hemphills as speakers, you may most likely get some wonderful pictures and information from the 21st Century Reformation website.

    if you are referring to some conference of finance secretaries discussing the Euro, I have no clue what they might be up to and who is pulling which strings in the background to take away more money from more people

  11. on 29 May 2012 at 1:18 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    IMHO

    NO!

    The video was showing a formula for logic/debating(philosophical study of valid reasoning) similar to what was taught in a college class at UofM in 1960.(studied primarily in the disciplines of philosophy and computer science) The video also used Byzantine art which was also taught in the required college humanities classes.

    AND

    What I believe is a result of teachings in series of classes taught by VPW in 1980.:

    **Sean, I am fully persuaded [peithia] that:

    A) Jesus Christ is pure man[resurrected] and not GOD/YAHWEH

    B) Jesus Christ, only, has ascended to heaven…the dead are asleep.

    C) Christians have Jesus Christ/comforter spiritually within.**

    VPW(who A buzzard referred to as your Guru in a KR artillerfeuer)never promoted: “worshipping Jesus in a religious sense (such as one would be “worshipping” God)” never promoted: “worship of Jesus similar to what is propagated in the video as worship in a sense of “direct worship of Jesus >> indirect worship of God” ”

    Today, I have a pastor who has put off the *doctrine of men/dispensationalism* and I read the whole bible as being written to me for doctrine[didiskalia].

    The following thread of scripture reveals the Christian relationship with GOD and Jesus concerning spiritual worship:

    John 4: (nasb)
    23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
    24 God is [e]spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” [e Or Spirit]

    John 14:
    16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another [b] Helper, that He may be with you forever;[b Gr Paracletos, one called alongside to help; or Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor]
    17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
    18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
    19 [c] After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.[c Lit Yet a little and the world]
    20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
    21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him.
    and will disclose Myself to him.”

    John 15:
    26 “When the [h] Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,[h Gr Paracletos, one called alongside to help; or Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor]
    27 [i]and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.[i Or (imperative) and bear witness]

    John 16:
    13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
    14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

    Acts 2:
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other [e]tongues, as the Spirit was giving them [f]utterance.
    [e Or languages] [f Or ability to speak out]

    The video used “vision” from revelations to put in a *red herring*(disambiguation). Jesus Christ is a resurrected man and not an animal. Yes he is the Lamb of GOD sacrificed once and for “all”.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exdK7Lirngg

    Wolfgang do you consider(my question to Sean) *When a Christian manifest holy spirit by speaking in tongues, is GOD
    being worshiped through Jesus Christ our mediator?* ?

    IMHO

    regards Wolfgang,

    Timothy

  12. on 29 May 2012 at 1:34 pmWolfgang

    Timothy,

    thanks very much for your note and further clarfication, seems like I misunderstood slightly what you had written earlier.

    As for your question to Sean, I am not sure what to answer …

    I don’t think that there is ever a mention of a “mediator” through whom to worship God … except perhaps in the case of the OT worship in the temple where priests, and in particular the high priest, acted on behalf of the congregation by bringing sacrifice etc. Thus I don’t think that prayer in Jesus’ name or the manifestation of the spirit is a “worship God through Jesus Christ our mediator” … nor would that be “worshipping Jesus”.

    I think the videos in some regards perhaps confuse the issue more than they really clarify. Even though the presenter mentions the truth that the term “worship” can be and is used of different kinds of “worship”, it appeared to me as if he left open some times which kind of worship was or is meant in regards to “worship Jesus Christ”, etc …

    To me the matter is rather simple: Only God is to be worshipped AS God. Others may be worshipped AS whatever they are … thus I would say it is quite wonderful for a husband to worship his wife as “the queen of his heart”, but it would be idolatry if he worshipped her as “his goddess”.

    Cheers,
    Wolfgang

  13. on 29 May 2012 at 1:35 pmWolfgang

    Timothy,

    oops … clicked the “send” button prematurely … wanted to add the following still:

    Thus, I would say it is in harmony with Scripture and appropriate to worship Jesus as Messiah, king of kings, etc …. but it would be idolatry to worship him as God.

  14. on 29 May 2012 at 4:20 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Thank you for your ‘understanding’ reply.

    So far I have not been able to communicate:(with anyone on KR blog)

    1 Corinthians 12: (nasb)
    12 Now concerning spiritual {gifts}(pneumatikos-spiritual matters), brethren, I do not want you to be ‘unaware’.[kjv=ignorant]

    2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.

    3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking [a] by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is [b] accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except [c] by the Holy Spirit.
    [a] or in
    [b] Gr anathema
    [c] or in

    IMHO One should consider:

    Romans 10: (nasb)
    9 [e]that if you confess[homologeo] with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    [e Or because]
    10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses[homologeo], [g]resulting in salvation.
    [f Lit to righteousness]
    [g Lit to righteousness]

    Romans 10: (kjv)
    9 That if thou shalt confess[homologeo] with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession[homologeo] is made unto salvation.

    I consider all of the above paramount to worshiping the GOD and father of our lord Jesus Christ. Being an American I have not been raised with an idea of worshiping a leader as the descendants of the Roman empire seem to have done in Europe.

    I hold Jesus Christ in esteem for what he endured for me and all of mankind. God has given him glory and at the resurrection he will rule as our King of GODs kingdom on Earth.

    I am a veteran, and know how to be obedient to the hierarchy of leadership all the way up to the then current President of the USA. Today my discipline is to my Lord, Here, El Senor, Jesus Christ.

    regards Wolfgang,

    Timothy

  15. on 29 May 2012 at 6:07 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Correction *Herr*

    Timothy

  16. on 29 May 2012 at 9:30 pmSarah

    Wolfgang,

    From my perspective, Professor Tuggy did a good job of explaining that in Rev 4 & 5, the worship given to God identified him as God, and the worship given to Jesus identified him as the Son of God and Messiah. They are shown being worshipped together, but in different capacities.

    Timothy,

    In post #7, I think you might have been disagreeing with my comment that John saw a vision of God, but I’m not sure. Could you please explain? My point was that scripture says “no one has seen God at any time” and I was just contemplating what impact this might have on the scene in Rev 4-5.

  17. on 29 May 2012 at 11:02 pmtimothy

    Sarah,

    Sorry Sarah, I am agreeing with you that John saw a vision. Revelation 1:1
    starts with saying it was Jesus Christ revelation to John, which is a vision.

    On the mountain of transfiguration Peter, James and John saw a vision and GOD spoke from a bright cloud.

    And scriptures say no man has seen GOD at anytime.

    The Final Words class has not reached the scripture about GOD and the lamb.

    Jesus is now a resurrected man and do we know what he sees, now, as a spiritual man.

    Do we know what he sees as a spiritual man?

  18. on 29 May 2012 at 11:12 pmtimothy

    Sarah,

    Sorry again….the last line was not meant to be posted and I am not asking any questions.

    Timothy

  19. on 30 May 2012 at 10:15 amTim (aka Antioch)

    I find the ‘no man has seen God’ verse quite puzzling given all the incidents in the OT where God was seen. The Greek word ‘horao’ is used in John 1:18. Other times it is translated as ‘know’ (perceive with the mind). I think it makes more sense in John 1:18 to say ‘no man has ever known God’ because then it goes on to say that Jesus has made him known.

  20. on 30 May 2012 at 3:27 pmSarah

    Tim, interesting point about the word horao. And it does fit well with the fact that Jesus made him known. Of course you have all the verses that refer to God as invisible to contend with, and the one referring to Jesus as the image of the invisible God. This is where I get a little uncertain as to whether we actually see God seated on his throne when we live on the new earth, or we ‘see’ God via Jesus’ glorification.

  21. on 30 May 2012 at 6:46 pmtimothy

    Sarah and Tim(aka Antioch),

    Some recent teachings reveal that man was actually seeing GODs messenger angles in mainy “incidents in the OT where God was seen”.

    “horao” meaning know=to perceive with the mind could be like “ears to hear and eyes to see”.

    When Christians live on the new Earth it will be in a resurrected, spiritual body. I wonder about this verse:

    1 corinthians 13:
    KJV
    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    NASB
    12 For now we see in a mirror [e]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. [e Lit in a riddle]

    Revelations is reveling that Christians will be ‘like” spiritual beings, “angles” in the future Kingdom of GOD.

    Timothy

  22. on 30 May 2012 at 7:54 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    timothy,

    I’ve been charged with not knowing the ‘truth’ and not knowing God because of my not believing Jesus is God. The verses you quote are a great reminder that we are all still in the dark to a large extent.

  23. on 30 May 2012 at 8:56 pmtimothy

    Tim (ak Antioch)

    2 Timothy 2: (kjv)
    3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

    Timothy

  24. on 31 May 2012 at 6:19 amDr.Ali

    Iam a Muslim it is by chance that i came into your cite .The articles on your cite are scholarly , well argued and a good read.

    Can i take part in the discussions on your cite ?

  25. on 31 May 2012 at 10:38 amTim (aka Antioch)

    Dr Ali,

    I for one welcome you and would love to hear a Muslim point of view. I’ve glanced at the Koran and intend to read it through at some point. I think it is a worthy cause for there to be interaction between Christians, Muslims, and Jews as we all sprang from Abraham and, in my mind, believe in the same God.

  26. on 31 May 2012 at 1:33 pmSarah

    Welcome, Dr. Ali. What are your thoughts on the subject?

  27. on 31 May 2012 at 3:58 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi Dr. Ali,
    I also don’t see any reason why you can’t participate in our discussions (Although I am not a moderator)….

  28. on 01 Jun 2012 at 7:40 amDr Ali

    Hi Tim,Sarah and Doubting Thomas ,thanks for welcoming me.

    I wish you ‘Shalom’ as Jesus Christ wished his disciples in John 20:19

    Before i begin sharing my views with you on this interesting topic i will briefly introduce myself to you .

    Iam an Indian , 29 yr of age , iam a surgeon i completed my M..B.B.S and specialization in General Surgery right now iam pursuing my supers specialization in Gastrointestinal Surgery with fellowship in Liver transplantation.

    I started reading the Bible when i was doing my graduation ,till today i have read it countless number of times.

    I started reading the Bible with preconceived notion that it exaggerated the position of Jesus Christ and raised him to God .With these notions in mind i started with the old testament ,when i finished the old testament i was well versed with the meaning of terms like son of God , Lord etc

    Then i started reading the new testament and that was it , i was dumbstruck i found out that the Bible never portrays Jesus Christ as God instead it portrays him as a obedient servant of God always seeking God !

    Reading Jesus Christs words in the Bible used to give me a thrill and used to bring me to a trance like state ,i used to question myself how can such a person who speaks like this about God and himself be God ?

    Jesus Christ raised the dead an act which Quran too certifies(Quran 3: 49-51) . As a Doctor i know what it means , he did a thing which by every means beyond limits of science . When he raised Lazarus in John 11 he looks upto heaven and thanks God for hearing him!!. Had it been any other person he would certainly have not looked up instead would have been behaving in a way as if he did it but look at Jesus invoking God and wanting the glory of God not his own !!

    Then i looked to Scholars of Christianity what they have to say , i read Geza Vermes , E.P Sanders , James D.G Dunn , James Barr , Jeffrey J Butz , Bart Ehrman , Ben Wethrington 3 , Maurice Casey , John Hick , Charles Freeman. After reading them i became even more clear to me who Jesus was.

  29. on 01 Jun 2012 at 9:35 amDr Ali

    COMING TO WORSHIPING JESUS

    Before answering this we have to answer these questions first.

    1) Why we should worship God ?
    2) Is Jesus God ?
    3) Is the worship in today’s usage same as that used in Bible?
    4) Did the disciples or early followers of Jesus used to worship him ?

    QUESTION no 1)
    We should worship God because it is his right as he created us , fashioned us and as he is our cherisher and sustainer.

    QUESTION no 2)
    Considering Jesus God is against the Bible and against what Jesus considered of himself and against what the apostles thought of him.Jesus never through out the Bible claimed to create us and the universe.

    This fact is upheld by the New Testament scholarship who consider Jesus to be a devot Jew based in 1st century Israel .

    …Historical figure of Jesus , E.P Sanders
    …Authentic Gospel of Jesus , Geza Vermes
    …Christology in the Making: A New Testament Inquiry into the Origins of the Doctrine of the Incarnation ,James D.G.Dunn, Second Edition,
    …Metaphor of God incarnate , John Hick
    …Jesus of Nazareth An Independent Historian’s Account of his Life and Teaching , Maurice Casey

    QUESTION no 3)
    Biblical verses which mention about people worshiping Jesus Matthew 8:2 , 9:18 , 14:33 , 15:25 , 20:20 , 28:9 , 28:17 , Mark 5:6.
    In each of these verses the Greek word used is ‘proskynein’ which is equivalent to the Hebrew ‘shachah’ .This word means to to do reverence to and not worship as given to God.
    It is also used for other people in Genesis 23:7 , Daniel 2:46 , 1 Samuel 25:23, 2 Kings 4:37, Genesis 50:18, 2 Samuel 19:18 .

    One more verse cited for worshiping Jesus is Daniel 7:14 where the word latreuo is used .As opposed to the LXX, Theodotian’s text reads douleusousin which comes from douleo. The theologian Sir Anthony Buzzard commenting on this says, “The Septuagint chooses latreuo (worship) in 7:14, but Theodotian, another Greek version of the Old Testament, uses the verb douleuo, a neutral word meaning to serve. The word latreuo, used in the Greek New Testament only of divine service, is not applied to Jesus.”

    Buzzard, A . Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian: A Call to Return to the Creed of Jesus. pp. 143

    In the same discussion Buzzard cites Professor of New Testament Emeritus at Candler School of Theology, Emory University, Arthur Wainwright who says in his book The Trinity in the New Testament, “there is no instance of latreuein [to do religious service to] which has Christ as its object”.

    The Eminent British Biblical scholar and Lightfoot Professor of Divinity Emeritus at the University of Durham, James Dunn unequivocally says, “Cultic worship or service (latreuein, latreia) as such is never offered to Christ

    Dunn, J. D. G. Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?: The New Testament Evidence pp. 27

    QUESTION no 4)
    This question is answered excellently BY foremost New Testament scholar James Dunn in his book Did the first Christians Worship Jesus? The New Testament Evidence

    In the conclusion of his book on pp 147 Dunn says on worshiping Jesus.

    “it soon becomes evident that Christian worship can deteriorate into what may be called Jesus- olatry as in an important sense or closed to idolatry.As Israel’s Prophets pointed on several occasion ,the calamity of idolatry is that the idol in effect taken to be God to be worshipped.So the idol substitutes the God and takes place of God .The worshipped due to God is absorbed by the idol.The danger of Jesus-olatry is similar ,Jesus is absorbing the worship due to God alone ”

    On pp 150 Dunn says ” No by and large the first Christians did not worship Jesus as such ”

    In the end if Jesus Christ is not God and the Bible never describes the worship given to God to be given to anybody else and the first Christians not worshiping Jesus ,we should not worship him instead we should worship his God whom he called his father .

  30. on 01 Jun 2012 at 12:59 pmtimothy

    Dear Dr Ali,

    Thank you for your descriptive answers to Questions # 1-2-3-4 and good morning from Florida, USA.

    I agree with the answers you have given, however more from what one may read/study the Word of GOD themselves, without so many commentaries. Most people here on this blog will tell you themselves what they believe about Jesus being GOD and I have posted my beliefs earlier on this thread and agree mostly with Wolfgang about worshiping Jesus.

    This blog is connected to my church lhim.org and we have teachings and classes which expound on these subjects. Later I may, if you shall wish, give you links to archives and classes.

    Tim(aka Antioh), Sarah and Doubting Thomas are wonderful loving Christians very knowledgeable and willing to share what they believe about our GOD and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    GOD bless you.

    Timothy

  31. on 01 Jun 2012 at 7:05 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Dr. Ali – I enjoyed your post and look forward to more. I have to ask given the amount of study you have done on this – what do you think is driving your interest in studying a religion that is not your own?

  32. on 02 Jun 2012 at 2:41 amWolfgang

    Dr. Ali

    thank you for an informative post with interesting and important information regarding the topic being discussed.

    In each of these verses the Greek word used is ‘proskynein’ which is equivalent to the Hebrew ‘shachah’ .This word means to to do reverence to and not worship as given to God.


    In the end if Jesus Christ is not God and the Bible never describes the worship given to God to be given to anybody else and the first Christians not worshiping Jesus ,we should not worship him instead we should worship his God whom he called his father .

    I would deem the above sufficient to answer any questions or disputes about the matter … Only God Himself should be worshipped AS GOD!

    Any misunderstandings or incorrect interpretations and conclusions seem to be based on a lack of understanding the different meanings which the word “worship” can have in different contexts.

    When only one meaning (namely, that of “worship AS GOD”) is assumed and then assigned to other passages, the result is bound to be a false interpretation and conclusiona, such as: (a) “Only God is to be worshipped”, (b) “Jesus is worshipped”, therefore (c) “Jesus must be God”.

  33. on 03 Jun 2012 at 8:14 pmRay

    I was watching the TV program “River Monsters” yesterday on a particular species of fish called the Snakehead. As Jeremy Wade was speaking of the term “Monster”, he called the Snakehead, the word made flesh.

    It seems good to me to worship Jesus more than the creation, yet when speaking of the creation sheds light upon the word of God, by teaching us how words are sometimes used, I find it enlightening.

  34. on 06 Jun 2012 at 6:47 pmRay

    I want to learn more about the Snakehead. At any rate, Jesus is the Father personified.
    I wonder if Jezebel ever had a fish tank.

  35. on 06 Jun 2012 at 7:37 pmtimothy

    Ray,

    Here are Jezebel and Ahab at lunch time:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_BwXjegQVc

    Timothy

  36. on 06 Jun 2012 at 9:41 pmRay

    Thank you Timothy. My computer is so slow and as I was waiting to download that on youtube, some other message came up that said it couldn’t be displayed or something. I don’t even have volume anymore. It will have to be another time. I would like to see it.

    Hebrews talks about the Lord pitching a tabernacle. Isn’t heaven God’s tabernacle? Moses made the tabernacle according to the pattern he was shown. (Heb 8:5)

    Now I’ve heard it said that since Jesus made the creation, he is God. Well I suppose that may be ….unless as the priest of the most high God he was creating heaven as God’s tabernacle.

    There are different ways of looking at things I suppose.

  37. on 07 Jun 2012 at 2:21 amtimothy

    Ray,

    There are several meanings for tabernackle. The basic meaning is tent.

    Genesis 12:8
    And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

    Abram lived in a tent when he first came to Canan.

    Psalm 83:6
    The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;

    Seems like most peoples lived in tents, which were also called tabernacles.

    Exodus 25:9
    According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

    GOD instructed Moses to build *the Tabernacle* which was where Israel worshiped GOD according to the law. This was a portable affair which then packed up and carried every time they would wander/travel.

    Later Solomon build a permanent temple/tabernacle.

    It had three doorways-the Way-the Truth-the Life. This was *the Way* they had to GOD through animal sacrifices. Our Lord and Savoir Jesus Christ became our sacrifice “the Way, the Truth, and the life once and for all.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&cp=5&gs_id=i&xhr=t&q=tabernacle&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=636&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=GEjQT9OLFpCg8QSDy7W_AQ

    Timothy

  38. on 08 Jun 2012 at 1:05 amRay

    Jesus said that in his Father’s house there are many mansions and that he went to prepare a place for his disciples. (John 14:2)

    Surely this house is in heaven and Jesus is the builder of it. Not only is he the builder of it, I believe he is the maker of it also.

  39. on 08 Jun 2012 at 10:10 amtimothy

    Ray,

    Yes Ray, Jesus said what you wrote:

    ***Jesus said that in his Father’s house there are many mansions and that he went to prepare a place for his disciples. (John 14:2)***

    Yes Ray, he did say that while he was a human being just like you and me.

    Then he said a lot more:

    John 14: (kjv)
    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 14: (nasb)
    26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

    Then he gave himself, his life, for us and died on the cross. Three days later his heavenly father raised him from the dead. Forty days later,he Jesus Christ a resurrected man ascended up to heaven and sat down at the right hand of his heavenly father GOD.

    Now Ray there are two individuals: GOD and his Resurrected son Jesus Christ siting on the right hand side of GOD. GOD has always been in heaven and Jesus Christ his resurrected human son is the first and only human being to be in heaven at this time.

    Fifty days after God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, *the day of Pentecost*, holy spirit was given to those who:

    Romans 10: (kjv)
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Ray…..why not watch the two videos…and use the same formula for ‘logic’ with the above.

    Ray…..please acknowledge that you have read and considered what and that I am taken part of my precious time to help you.(I have 70 years)

    Timothy

  40. on 08 Jun 2012 at 10:34 pmRay

    I believe there are many others in heaven with God at this time because of Jesus. My computer is way too slow to get videos and I have no sound at this time.

    I believe there will be many who will be saved because of Jesus who never knew of his name as Jesus. They may have been wise men who walked in the light of Christ that they received before he come into this world in the flesh. Having walked with him, they knew him though not by his name Jesus.

    He has been with the Father before the world was made by him.

    Anyone who denies Jesus as the Christ and has received the light of God by the spirit of wisdom, is a liar, not walking in the light they had received, for the spirit of wisdom is the same spirit as the spirit of Christ.

    I believe the Lord created the world and everything in it according to what he was shown from the Father, and that he did it by the power of God which he had received, and is.

  41. on 10 Jun 2012 at 2:03 amDr Ali

    Hi Ray

    Are you saying Jesus Christ created the universe ?

    If yes then can you back your claim by showing one verse from the Bible which says this .

  42. on 10 Jun 2012 at 10:10 amRay

    Dr. Ali, I claim that God created everything by Jesus Christ, and that makes him my maker. Not only is Jesus the reason for the universe, but he is the reason for every purpose of God which he purposed in himself.

    Because the Word was in the beginning with God, God had communion with him. I believe there was a full sharing that took place, and that nothing good was withholden from God’s Son, whom we now know as Jesus. I believe a promise was made before the world was, that though the world would fall into sin, that a Saviour would come, and that he would be born of a woman, a pattern of this being given in Genesis on the first day.

  43. on 10 Jun 2012 at 10:18 amRay

    I trust that Jesus created all by the power of God according to the pattern that was shown him, and this is why the planet Saturn has it’s rings.

    I think I also know now why the ocean is near the shore.

  44. on 10 Jun 2012 at 12:20 pmtimothy

    Ray,

    De Ali wrote:
    “Are you saying Jesus Christ created the universe ?

    If yes then can you back your claim by showing one verse from the Bible which says this .”

    I too would like to see the *chapter/verse* to back up your claim.

    And you wrote also:”I think I also know…..”

    Does this mean that you just think you know and are not sure you know?

    Timothy

  45. on 10 Jun 2012 at 12:22 pmtimothy

    correction “Dr. Ali”

  46. on 10 Jun 2012 at 3:33 pmJaco

    Ray’s cognitive categories are amorphous and fluid…that makes any logical engagement rather challenging…

  47. on 10 Jun 2012 at 3:35 pmJaco

    Dr. Ali, what is your take on Jesus’ re. the issue of preexistence? There is no historical evidence from the Bible that Jesus literally preexisted his birth on earth. Or that he literally took part in creation. That he was the motivation for creating in the first place is what his preeminence meant for the first Christians…

  48. on 10 Jun 2012 at 5:30 pmRay

    Can anyone prove Jesus did not create all by the power of God the Father, or that he wasn’t with him in communion with him from before the beginning of the earth?

    I know of no verses in the Bible that would say that. There is nothing I know of that could prove such things.

  49. on 10 Jun 2012 at 5:37 pmRay

    I believe Jesus was a part of God from everlasting and when God created all that is, Jesus was included. I don’t believe God is required of us to say that Jesus was with him whenever he speaks
    of the work which he did. I believe he may but isn’t required of us to say so.

  50. on 10 Jun 2012 at 7:53 pmtimothy

    Ray,

    You wrote:
    ” I believe he may but isn’t required of us to say so.”

    Yes Ray, and you are saying so with out the normal way on this BLOG, where you would, at least quote scripture.

    Do you actually have a Bible there to read/quote from?
    Here is a link to the NASB which is written in easy to read modern English.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/#booklist

    Everything you are writing seems like you have been listening to some strange teaching tapes. Check it out by reading for your self. Follow along and read from the many threads here on KR which have already settled from scriptures your skewed personal interpolation.

    Timothy

  51. on 11 Jun 2012 at 8:26 amDr Ali

    Hi Ray

    Thanks for responding .

    Before i answer this important question whether the Bible portrays Jesus as the creator of universe ? i want to show you some logical difficulties which arises when you claim that Jesus created the universe.

    Logical difficulties with your claim.

    1) If Jesus created the universe in totality i.e 100% , then it automatically implies that God the father did not create the universe even 1% of it .

    2) If you say both together created the universe , then it implies that both together are creators and individually they are not .

    3) If you say God gave Jesus Christ the power to create the universe , it then implies that initially Jesus Christ did not have the power to create and needed to be given by God . Even in this situation God remains the creator not Jesus Christ as God gave the power to him without which he could have not created .

    You also said Jesus is a part of God from the beginning , this is outright unBiblical as the Bible never says God has a part.

  52. on 11 Jun 2012 at 9:19 amDr Ali

    Now Biblical proofs on who created the universe.

    I will quote you verses from the Bible which shows only God created universe not Jesus Christ.

    Genesis 1:1
    “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

    Isaiah 45:12
    “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, And I ordained all their host.”

    Psalm 102:25
    “In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.”

    Isaiah 37:16
    “O LORD Almighty, God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.”

    Jeremiah 27:5
    “With my great power and outstretched arm I made the earth and its people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please.”

    Isaiah 40:26
    “Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.”

    Isaiah 44:24
    “This is what the LORD says–your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself”

    Isaiah 45:12
    ” It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.”

    Isaiah 45:18
    “For this is what the LORD says–he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited–he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.”

    Isaiah 48:13
    “My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.”

    Isaiah 57:16
    “I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me–the breath of man that I have created.”

    Isaiah 42:5
    “This is what God the LORD says–he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it.”

    Job 9:8
    “He alone spreads out the heavens, and treads on the waves of the sea.”

    Jeremiah 10:11
    “He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion.”

    Malachi 2:10
    “Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? ”

    The above verses clearly says God alone created the universe alone.

  53. on 11 Jun 2012 at 9:27 amDr Ali

    Matthew 24:36
    “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”

    Jesus himself said he does not know the time of hour.

    One question for you Ray is if Jesus himself is the creator then how come he does not know the time of end of his own creation ?

  54. on 11 Jun 2012 at 3:03 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Dr. Ali – thanks for the legwork, I have copied and pasted those verses into a document that I have put together about the deity of Jesus.

    I think a key word in the ‘Jesus creator’ verses is the Greek word ‘di’. Lexicons give various meanings for this word that include ‘by’, ‘through’, ‘with’. That definition can lead to Jesus being the one ‘by’ whom the world was created.

    But ‘di’ can also be used to mean ‘on account of’ or ‘because of’. That greatly changes the meaning. ‘On account of’ Jesus was the world created. That makes more sense – otherwise, Jesus creating the universe is completely out of synch with the verses that Dr. Ali posted.

  55. on 11 Jun 2012 at 3:47 pmtimothy

    Dr. Ali,

    Thank you Dr. Ali.

    Timothy

  56. on 11 Jun 2012 at 7:15 pmRay

    Dr. Ali,

    Here’s the problem with your logic in #1 above, (Post 51) Since Jesus healed the man born blind, (you can find this scripture for yourself, I’m not making it up) this doesn’t mean that he was not healed by God, for God healed the man born blind and he did it by Jesus Christ.

    I believe Jesus does heal certain things 100%. This still leaves plenty of room for God to work, for it’s still God that heals 100% also whenever he heals completely.

    As Christians we shouldn’t be unaware of this mystery.

    As for #2 above, I believe it is acceptable to refer to Jesus as the creator at times, just as it is to honor God as the maker of all things.

    There is nothing within the libery of the Spirit that forbids this that I am aware of.

    Just as both God the Father and Jesus his Son are healers, I trust that it is acceptable to call both Jesus and God makers of us all since mankind was made by God through Jesus Christ.

    That mankind was made by God through Jesus Christ is what the Bible teaches.

    As to #3 above, are you saying that if Jesus did not heal by the power of God, then he could not be a healer? I ask this because you say that if he did not have power to create unless God gave it to him, then he could not be a creator.

    I can not in good conscience follow such things as if it were logic.

    What we can observe by all this is that when men do not walk in the light they have been given, they tend to fall asleep spiritually, and when a man is asleep he might be speaking things that make no sense at all. This is part of what Rom 1:20 speaks of.

  57. on 11 Jun 2012 at 8:02 pmtimothy

    Ray,

    Why not have some politeness and look up, then copy/past.

    You could at least meet kindness with kindness as many people spend a lot of effort to help you.

    you wrote:
    “(you can find this scripture for yourself, I’m not making it up)”

    http://lhim.org/blog/2012/05/23/should-christians-worship-jesus/#comment-129134

    Timothy

  58. on 11 Jun 2012 at 8:19 pmtimothy

    Ray,

    you write:

    “As Christians we shouldn’t be unaware of this mystery.”

    What mystery are you referring to Ray?

    What was the mystery before The Day of Pentecost?

    clew:

    One was revealed after Pentecost and the other is still a mystery.

    Timothy

  59. on 12 Jun 2012 at 9:13 amDr.Ali

    Hi Tim (aka Antioch)

    Thanks for the good points you raised.

    The Greek word ‘ di ‘ simply does not indicate a cause but a means.

    The following verses are commonly quoted in support of Jesus being the creator of world :::: John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:16,1 Corinthians 8:6

    In all of these verses the word which is commonly translated as ‘by’ is actually in Greek ‘ di ‘

    Tim you said ” di can also mean ‘ on account of ‘ or ‘because of’.
    That makes more sense – otherwise, Jesus creating the universe is completely out of synch with the verses of Old Testament.”

    Rightly said Tim , especially if you see Isaiah 48:13
    “My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.”

    In this verse God says he created the universe with his right hand and we know Jesus is not the right hand of God instead the Bible says he sits at the right hand of God.

    Now by evaluating in a scholarly/critical manner gospel of John represents a higher Christlogy as agreed to by most of the Biblical scholars (F.F Bruce , E.P Sanders , Geza Vermes , Raymond Brown , Bart Ehrman and Daniel Wallace ) .Most of these scholars say that Johns Gospel is a less historical record of Jesus and have things which are more of the view of the author of the Gospel than of Jesus.

    According to me the prologue of John represents the view of the author not of Jesus as Jesus never talked about such a thing during his ministry on Earth.

    Tim and Timothy what are your views on this ?

    Like wise the Epistles of Paul which we are dealing here Hebrews , Colossians and Corinthians ,except for Colossians the other 2 have unknown authorship and even Colossians is debated.

    They were written for respective populations to drive a particular motive in that populace . So again according to me they should not be taken at face value instead should be read in the context in which they were written and the motive which the author was trying to drive. Anything on Jesus in these Epistles should be evaluated side by side with the Synoptic Gospels and see whether it is matching what Jesus said then only should be upheld otherwise kept aside.

    Again Tim and timothy what are your views on this ?

    Waiting for your replies and one more thing this is not to hurt you the least ,just want to have a good discussion on these topics.

    Your Muslim brother in Jesus Christ Dr.Ali

  60. on 12 Jun 2012 at 10:09 amSarah

    Your Muslim brother in Jesus Christ Dr. Ali

    Dr. Ali, I wonder if you could please elaborate on this? You’ve been debating (very effectively) from the vantage point of a Christian who has rejected trinitarianism but accepted Jesus Christ in all other aspects according to scripture. Yet you have also mentioned several times you are Muslim, which leaves me wondering exactly where you’re coming from. I would love to hear more about your faith journey to this point in your life if you are willing to share it?

  61. on 12 Jun 2012 at 3:45 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Dr. Ali,

    I echo Sarah’s question in #60 – I’m very curious to understand why you have obviously spent a great deal of time studying the Bible? Do you spend even more time with the Koran?

    As for your questions:

    1) My opinion of John 1:1-18 is that the key word to understand is ‘logos’. What did John have in mind when he used that word. The common trinitarian argument is to say logos=Jesus. That is a compelling argument on the surface, but I think ‘logos’ had a meaning entirely different for John’s audience. Logos (gk) = memra (aramaic) = dabar (hebrew). The word is pervasive throught OT and NT and when I did a word study on it, I do not conclude that ‘logos’ is Jesus. ‘logos’ is more like God’s plan. To accept ‘logos’ is Jesus would be accepting that John, a Jew, was redefining its meaning. I cannot reconcile that.

    2) My opinion is the NT was canonized and elevated to the status of scripture by a council of men, the same group that gave us the trinity. I don’t accept they were spirit led and therefore I don’t see it on the same level as the OT. But, it is the best source of information about Jesus. Acts 2, in particular, melts my heart as it closely describes what I experienced when I became a Christian. It explains how a small band of disciples, hiding and afraid when their rabbi was executed, were suddenly transformed and gladly became martyrs in order to spread Jesus’ gospel. So, I do study the NT and elevate it above any other Christian writings, however, I stop short of committing to doctrines that are not overwhelmingly clear.

    I’m thinking our opinions are not far apart on either issue?

  62. on 13 Jun 2012 at 8:38 amDr.Ali

    Hi Sarah and Tim

    Arent we brothers and sisters in faith of believe in one God ?

    Christ believed in one God , so do Abraham , Moses , Elijah , Joel , Jonah , Amos , Hosea , Isaiah , Micah , Jeremiah , Ezekiel , Daniel and Malachi .

    So that makes us brothers and sisters in Abraham , Moses and Christ .

    Tim also thank you for your answers to my questions , simple and thought provoking.

    Brother Tim can i discuss with you on ‘ logos’ ?

  63. on 13 Jun 2012 at 11:20 amTim (aka Antioch)

    Dr. Ali,

    I’d be delighted to discuss ‘logos’ with you.

    While I agree with you on the belief in one God (we are all children of Abraham), I would have to part ways with the Muslim faith as to the role of Jesus. I do believe he is the ‘Son of God’ (just not God the Son).

    I became a Christian just over two years ago at age 46. For most of my life, I believed there was a God and I could even accept for sake of argument that Jesus was the son of God. But where I got stuck was accepting the bible as the word of God. I felt that too much time had passed and there were too many inconsistencies and contradictions and what I saw at the time as downright viciousness attributed to God for the bible to be truth.

    While I still have my doubts about inerrancy, I nevertheless see God coming through at least a part of the bible and it seems clear to me now that Jesus is who he claimed to be. What gives me this conviction is how the bible, particularly the NT, speaks about the transforming power of the holy spirit. I have experienced that myself. God’s spirit has given me the ability to control behaviors that I had before that were not godly and that I tried to control on my own but always failed. I have been given a softer heart to love people and I find people far more interesting now than I did before.

    When I look at the Muslim faith, what I am impressed with is the devotion to God. To pray five times a day – to have that focus on God – I would think God is pleased by that. But missing what Jesus is and what he represents – the means by which God has reconciled mankind to himself – that is no small matter. Personally, I have a hard time believing that the decision to believe in Jesus has to be made during this lifetime, but I do believe that no one will enter the kingdom of God without doing so. I tend to think, and I can neither prove or disprove this biblically, that between the first death and second death, there is a final opportunity to ‘come to Jesus’.

    But back to the holy spirit because I would like to know your understanding of that. It is the crucial factor in my conviction of being a Christian. As in Acts2, we see the transforming power that occurred when the people repented. I’ve met many Christians (real Christians and not those who call themselves that by birth or social convention) who share similar testimonies of how the spirit came upon them and transformed their hearts and their lives. I am not well versed on the Muslim faith, but I am not aware of any acknowledgement of that holy spirit in Islam. Am I wrong?

  64. on 14 Jun 2012 at 5:44 amJaco

    Great discussion going guys! (and gal).

  65. on 14 Jun 2012 at 5:54 amJaco

    Dr. Ali,

    Could you elaborate on your position regarding Jesus being referred to as the son of God? How do you understand it and do you object to the rather narrow way Muslims understand this expression? Do you allow for non-natural uses of the phrase, “son of…”?

    Thank you,

    Jaco

  66. on 14 Jun 2012 at 8:08 amSean

    Jaco,

    We missed you this year!

  67. on 15 Jun 2012 at 5:49 amJaco

    Hey, Sean!

    I think I missed you all even more, brother. God willing, he’ll make the way for me to see you all next year. Either in Atlanta or in Australia…

    Thanks, bro.

  68. on 12 Apr 2013 at 5:46 pmJas

    Sarah
    Thank you
    Yes this one of them ,the other had a man named John who I believe was banned

  

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