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by Bethany Reise

The Scriptures clearly say that no man can see God and live (Ex 33:20). But the Scriptures also describe many instances of people “seeing” God, even meeting with him “face to face” (Gen 32:31, Num 12:1-8). How then are the apparent “contradictions” reconciled? Some resort to adopting a Trinitarian perspective of God, and claim that when He appeared to His people in the Old Testament it was in the form of Jesus, the pre-incarnate Son of God, who is also God. However, to assert that God is more than one person is to divorce oneself from the God of the Old Testament and to deny the foundational Jewish belief that there is but one God, YHWH. This fact is clearly stated in their creed in Deuteronomy 6:4: “Hear O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!” Thus, the answer to the mystery of the apparent “God sightings” in the Old Testament must be approached solely from a Hebraic perspective, with the knowledge that God is One and has never been seen or heard by man (John 5:37). It is only by applying the thoroughly Hebraic law of agency to the Scriptures, that seeming inconsistencies are resolved and the true nature of God and His Messiah remain undefiled.

The law of agency is quite a simple concept, but a central one. It is considered common knowledge among Hebrew scholars and Jews, though typically not apparent to the average reader who tries to understand the Scriptures from a modern western view point.1 To understand the Hebrew Scriptures, one must think like a Hebrew and become acquainted with the law of agency. The Encyclopedias of Jewish Religion explains it quite well:

“Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the law of agency is expressed in the dictum, ‘a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself’ (Ned 72b; Kidd, 41b). Therefore an act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle…”2

In other words, the agent who is sent to do the will of his commissioning superior is regarded as the superior themself and authorized to act on his or her behalf. Thus, the agent may bear the name, authority, and title of their sender whom they are representing and be received as such. For example, an agent bearing the name of God may receive reverence, for “homage given to God’s agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.”3 It is by utilizing the law of agency and adopting a Hebraic perspective, that the supposed controversies may be understood and intelligently interpreted.

A good example of the principle of agency in action is demonstrated in the Exodus account. When God determines to deliver His people from the oppression of Egypt, He makes Moses “as God to Pharaoh” with his brother Aaron acting as his prophet (Ex 7:1). The LORD sends Moses to Pharaoh to say: “This is what Yahweh says: Here is how you will know that I am Yahweh. Watch. I will strike the water in the Nile with the staff in my hand, and it will turn to blood” (Ex 7:16-17). Since Moses and Aaron have been commissioned by God as agents of God, they are given the authority to speak and act as God to Pharaoh. Notice that when Moses spoke God’s words to Pharaoh, God said that He would strike the Nile with the staff in His hand. However, it is clearly not God who carries out the action; it is his agent acting on His authority. God commands Moses: “Tell Aaron: Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt—over their rivers, canals, ponds, and all their water reservoirs—and they will become blood.” And when Aaron raises his staff, all the waters of Egypt are turned to blood. Thus, the law of agency becomes apparent: Moses and Aaron were commissioned by God, to be received as God and given the authority of God, to carry out the work of God as agents acting in his stead.

The principle of agency is not uncommon in the Old Testament; in fact God frequently appointed both angels and men to speak and act on His behalf. It is clear that God’s people were quite familiar with the concept. In Genesis 31:11-13, Jacob relates a story of a prophetic dream that he had to his wives. In his dialogue with them, he relates that “the angel of God said to me in the dream… I am the God of Bethel…” It is important to note that though the angel clearly identifies himself as God, he was understood by Jacob, his wives, and the author of Genesis to be an angel of God, or a messenger of God. In fact, this must be the only explanation, for “Jacob knew nothing of a Trinity, and there is certainly no evidence that Jacob would have recognized he was talk to the Messiah.”4 This incident makes it apparent that Jacob’s family and the Hebrew people were familiar with the concept of agency, for they were quite comfortable with accepting the angel who spoke the words of God in the first person, as though he was God Himself.5

Unfortunately many people today are not acquainted with this beautifully simple Hebraic concept. As a result, they struggle over the many “God sightings” of the Old Testament and attempt to explain them by asserting that the are actually manifestations of the pre-incarnate God-man they call Jesus. They reason that because the angel of the LORD speaks as God Himself, he must actually be God. Therefore, they equate this figure with the second member of the Trinity. However if one were to follow this logic through, one would be forced to conclude that both Moses and Aaron were God as well, for they both spoke the very words of God and acted in His name. But one would be hard-pressed to find any evidence to support the claim that Moses and Aaron were God. However, these Old Testament figures are to be understood as God’s representatives who are regarded as God Himself, because the Father invested his name and authority in them. By understanding the principle of agency, the apparent contradictions of the Old Testament are resolved, and there is no need to distort the oneness of God or the pure humanity of Jesus the Messiah, God’s anointed agent.


1 Essoe, Raymond James. “Shaliah: An Introduction to the Law of Agency.” Christian Monotheism. http://www.christianmonotheism.com/
2 R.J.Z. Werblowsky, G. Wigoder, New York: Adama Books, 1986, p. 15.
3 Deuble, Greg S. They Never Told Me THIS in Church!: A Call to Read the Bible with New Eyes. Restoration Fellowship, 2006, p. 66.
4 Spirit & Truth Fellowship International. “Divine Agents: Speaking and Acting in God’s Stead.” Biblical Unitarian: A Website about God & his son, Jesus Christ. http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/ .
5 Deuble, p. 66.

by Bethany Reise

359 Responses to “God’s Not-So-Secret Agents”

  1. on 17 Dec 2012 at 5:36 pmJas

    Bethany
    Very good explanation of agency but rabbinical judaism or israelism are not monotheistic ,they are only strict unitarians with regard to The Elyon (most high) who is the Creator.
    Actually rabbinical writings speak of a lessor YHWH who appeared visually but was actually called YHWH.
    But this should be understood in light of agency.
    But true Israelism believed in a host of lessor gods but were not to put them before the God who chose them as his own inheritance when he divided the other nations amongst his sons.

  2. on 20 Dec 2012 at 11:15 amMike Gantt

    Anyone who knows what an insurance agent is should be familiar with the concept of agency.

  3. on 07 Jan 2013 at 9:35 amJohn

    “The Branch of the LORD”

    God tells us that we can understand His eternal power and Divine nature through the things that are made.

    (Romans 1:20) – Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made.

    Jesus is identified as, the Branch of the LORD.

    ​(Isaiah 4:2) – In that day the Branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious; And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing For those of Israel who have escaped.

    A Branch is part of the Tree so it carries the same nature as the Tree yet it is dependent on the Tree.

    (John 5:19) – Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

    Even though the Branch is of the same nature as the Tree, everything the Branch has comes from the Tree.

    (John 13:3) – Jesus knew that the Father had given him authority over everything and that he had come from God and would return to God.

    The Sap of the Tree gives life to the Branch just as the eternal Spirit of the Father gives life.

    (John 5:26) – For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself.

    The apple tree gives the branch life and revelation that it should produce apples. Without that life and revelation the branch would not know.

    (Mark 13:32) – “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    ​Even though the Tree and Branch are of the same nature, the Tree is always greater than the Branch.

    (John 14:28) – You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

    “Jesus, Before and Now”

    The Angel of the LORD. The word, (angel) means (messenger or representative). A representative is a person or thing that represents another. As the messenger and representative of God, the Angel of the LORD speaks for God and manifests God’s presence. In essence, when we see the Angel of the LORD, we see God. When something is a representative of something else it can be of the same nature of that which it represents. In other words, by nature a false god is not God so any manifestation of it is, by its very nature, not God.

    (Galatians 4:8) – But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

    By nature the Angel of the LORD is God because He is God’s representative as He manifests God’s power and presence. Notice how when the people of God interacted with the Angel of the LORD they understood Him to be God. They even, as a form of worship, offered a sacrificed to Him and He accepted it. Listen.

    (Judges 13:21-23) – When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”

    Throughout the Old Testament the Angel of the LORD was the Word of God manifested in divers ways to Israel. He spoke to Moses in the burning bush and He was the one who led Israel through the wilderness as a pillar of fire and a cloud, just to name a few. Today that same Word of God, who was with God and who is God, is Jesus in the flesh. Listen, the Angel of the LORD who led them as a cloud in the wilderness and followed them as the Rock is today’s Jesus.

    (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) – Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

    The Angel of the Lord who spoke to Moses in the burning bush identified Himself as the, “I AM” is also the “I AM” of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    (John 8:58) – Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    This “I AM” statement of Jesus carries Divine power because it identifies Jesus as the representative of God’s presence, the Word of God.

    (John 18:3-6) – The leading priests and Pharisees had given Judas a contingent of Roman soldiers and Temple guards to accompany him. Now with blazing torches, lanterns, and weapons, they arrived at the olive grove. Jesus fully realized all that was going to happen to him, so he stepped forward to meet them. “Who are you looking for?” he asked. “Jesus the Nazarene,” they replied. “I AM,” Jesus said. (Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them.) As Jesus said “I AM,” they all drew back and fell to the ground!

    At the title “I AM” they drew back and fell to the ground. This is not just your everyday, I AM.

    Another way of identifying God with the Angel of the LORD and the pre-incarnate Jesus is through voice recognition. Notice the character trait in the voice of the Angel of the LORD as He repeats names twice. He carried this same character trait as the word made flesh.

    (Exodus 3:2-4) – And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

    Also again with Abraham.

    (Genesis 22:11) – But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.”

    (Genesis 46:2) – Then God spoke to Israel in the visions of the night, and said, “Jacob, Jacob!” And he said, “Here I am.”

    (1 Samuel 3:10) – The LORD came and stood and called as at other times, “Samuel! Samuel!” And Samuel answered, “Speak, for Your servant hears.”

    Now notice the same character trait in the word made flesh.

    (Luke 22:31) -Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat.

    (Acts 22:7) – And Saul fell to the ground and heard the voice of Jesus saying to me, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

    (Matthew 27:46) – About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

    (Luke 10:41) – Jesus answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things.

    (Matthew 23:37) – Jesus laments: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

    The Angel of LORD lived in the presence of His Father before He dwelt among us as the word made flesh.

    (John 1:1) – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    (John 1:14) – And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    (2 Corinthians 8:9) – For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

    The Angel of the LORD, as the manifested word of God, took on human flesh.

    (Hebrews 10:5) – Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.

    (John 1:14) – The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    He lived, died and was resurrected back into the presence of His Father.

    (John 17:5) – Now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I shared with you before the world was created.

    Jesus is God with us because, through God’s eternal Spirit, He represents God’s presence among us the same way He did in the Old Testament.

    (1 Timothy 3:16) – And without controversy great is the mystery of our religion: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

    (Luke 7:15-17) – So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother. Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” And this report about Him went throughout all Judea and all the surrounding region.

    (Matthew 1:23) – “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    Jesus is called Wonderful because He is the Angel of the Lord as the word in human form.

    (Isaiah 9:6) – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    (Judges 13:18) – And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    Jesus, as the man, is called the seed of David but Jesus but He is also called the Bright and Morning Star as the Angel of the LORD or Word of God in human flesh.

    (Revelation 22:16) – “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the Bright and Morning Star.”

    The Father, Son and eternal Spirit make up God’s Divine nature and eternal power.

    (Romans 1:20) – Ever since the creation of the world His eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things He has made. So they are without excuse.

    The Father and Son through the power of God’s eternal Spirit equate to the Divine nature of the one true God.

    (1 John 5:20) – We know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    (John 17:3) – This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    (1 John 1:3) – That which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

  4. on 07 Jan 2013 at 12:52 pmXavier

    Would anyone on here advocate “the manifestation of YHWH” as a definition for the word “angel”?

  5. on 07 Jan 2013 at 2:42 pmSarah

    Hi John,

    A Branch is part of the Tree so it carries the same nature as the Tree yet it is dependent on the Tree.

    The kingdom of heaven is compared to a tree (Luke 13:19), and Israel is compared to a tree (Jer 11:16). Individual humans are also compared to trees (Ps 52:8).

    Jesus said,”I am the vine, you are the branches…” (Jn 15:5) and he also said, “I am the vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.” (Luke 13:7).

    As far as I can tell, God is the planter, not the planted. I don’t see evidence in scripture for the Tree-branch / God-Jesus comparison.

  6. on 07 Jan 2013 at 3:50 pmtimothy

    Sarah,

    Somewhat related?(copy/pasted)

    Galatians 4:28 – Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    It is a fact in horticulture (the science and art of plant life) that the seed and fruit of any graffed branch have direct life and relationship to the root. It is yet another fact that the root gives life to the branch, and not the branch to the root.

    The Apostle Paul understood this in his teaching of Romans 11:18 when he declares to the graffed Gentile branches, ‘thou barest not the root, but the root thee.’ Paul told them to keep that in mind and not be arrogant.

    In other words, seeing that God cut the unbelieving Jew off and they were the natural branches, he can also cut you off if you abide in sin like they did.

    ***This gives a hint to the question about “once saved, always saved.”

    These graffed olive branches are no longer attached to the wild olive tree, and thus that tree’s root no longer bears them. These graffed olive branches are now attached to the Jewish olive tree, the Israel of God (good olive tree), and thus this tree’s root now bears them and gives them life. The fruit they bear has direct life and relationship to this root, which is holy, and to the branches which are also holy (Romans 11:16).

    The Gentiles now have a direct relationship to the root of the tree, the blessed Patriarchs.

    In times past these grafted branches were Gentiles and aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers from the covenants and the promises, having no hope and being without God in the world but are now brought near by the blood of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:11-13).

    Now these grafted branches are no more strangers (Gentiles) and foreigners, but fellow citizens WITH the Saints (Ephesians 2:19-22). These Gentiles, which were not a people, have now become the elect (chosen) people of God through faith in Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:10).

  7. on 07 Jan 2013 at 4:35 pmJas

    Timothy
    First thing in understanding the grafting is understanding just who are gentiles. Pauls quote from Hosea is the key but even though the bloodline of Israel is numerous as the sand, being the Israel of God is those that take hold of the covenants and revisions and these people are known by the signs or mark of the Sabbaths and memorials.
    All others are saved by Grace alone.

  8. on 07 Jan 2013 at 5:30 pmtimothy

    what kind of Gentiles were:

    Lots sons:

    Moab—-Ruth

    Ammon—-Rahab—-Boaz

  9. on 07 Jan 2013 at 5:52 pmJas

    Timothy
    It doesnt matter with regard to the grafting in. Paul was refering to the remnant of the southern kingdom that returned from captivity as the natural branch and those of the exile as the wild branches who were alienated from the commom wealth and the covenant promises when they were scattered amongst the gentiles and would be known as gentiles.It was the northern nd southern kingdoms who were said to not be his people by these 2 exiles that God promised to renew the covenant and again call them his people. Israel was a light to the gentiles by bringing forth Jesus to redeem all mankind from the curse of Adams sin.

  10. on 08 Jan 2013 at 10:06 amJohn

    God is making one people, not two. These will be a people that God can call His own. They will be a royal priesthood and a holy nation.

    Exodus 19:6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

    1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

    There is one Gospel for all people. There is not one Gospel for Israel and one for Gentile.

    There will be one Law for all people, which includes the seventh day Sabbath.

    Numbers 15:15-16 One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord. One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.’”

    Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger that join themselves to the Lord to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of My covenant.

    Notice in the next verse how Jews and Gentiles gather on the Sabbath? The Gentiles then begged that Paul would teach them again on the next Sabbath. The next Sabbath almost the whole city came out to hear the word of God. This took place years after the resurrection. If there was a change to the Sabbath day this is where Paul would have said something, but he didn’t. Listen.

    Acts 13:42-44 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

    Obedience to righteous will be for Jew and Gentile.

    Romans 2:8-10 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentile; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.

    Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

    God’s Law is holy, just and good. It defines righteousness and godly love.

    Romans 13:8-9 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

  11. on 08 Jan 2013 at 10:13 amJas

    Ezekiel 37:15-17:

    And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: And you, son of man, take one stick, and write upon it: For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick, and write upon it: For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions; and join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.

  12. on 08 Jan 2013 at 11:27 amJohn

    Amen…God will make one holy people by writing His Law upon our hearts. We will go from an attitude of, I must obey God’s Law, as under the old covenant to, I want to obey God’s Law under the new covenant.

    Sin is the transgression of God’s Law. Grace does not do away with the Law, it does away with the punishment.

    Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.

    It doesn’t say, where grace abounds the Law is done away with.

    The Law will always point out sin and demand punishment for sin but the Law no longer has authority over those who are in Christ, not that we can now breath the Law of God.

    Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

    In other words, shall we break God’s Law because we are free from punishment? Certainly not!

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

    In other words, shall we continue breaking God’s Law because God loves us and won’t punish us? Certainly not!

    Many people believe have been taught that God’s Law is no longer binding on His people, this is a huge false teaching. People say as long as you love people you will all set but love is defined by God not man.

    You could be empowered by the Spirit of God and cast out demons, prophesy and do many miraculous things all in the name of Jesus and still not be right with Him because you break God’s Law.

    Matthew 7:22-23 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

    Jesus came to remove the curse of the Law, which is death because of breaking the Law. He didn’t come to do away with the Law.

    Satan is the one who hates those who keep the commandments of God and who have the testimony of Jesus. so of course he would love to do away with God’s Law.

    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

  13. on 08 Jan 2013 at 11:37 amJohn

    There is an eternal power and divine nature that can be understood through creation. The Bible teaches us that God’s eternal power is His Spirit and the divine nature is the Father and Son. The Father, Son and eternal Spirit make up God’s Divine nature and eternal power.

    (Romans 1:20) – Ever since the creation of the world His eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things He has made. So they are without excuse.

    The Father and Son through the power of God’s eternal Spirit equate to the Divine nature of the one true God.

    (1 John 5:20) – We know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    (John 17:3) – This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    (1 John 1:3) – That which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

    (Hebrews 1:8-10) – But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

  14. on 08 Jan 2013 at 11:39 amJas

    John
    You are correct that the Words of the Covenants are very important to True Israel because they are the means to the first resurrection but Grace has no conditions but is the means of the second resurrection so All mankind can be judged by their own sin not Adam’s which left all mankind without judgement and without judgement no man can be found worthy to receive eternal life in the presence of the Creator

  15. on 08 Jan 2013 at 1:31 pmWolfgang

    John,

    you wrote above:

    The Father and Son through the power of God’s eternal Spirit equate to the Divine nature of the one true God.

    could you perhaps “translate” (explain) this statement?
    what does “the Father and Son through the power of God’s eternal Spirit equate …” mean? what do you mean with “through the power of God’s eternal Spirit”? how does it “equate to the Divine nature of the one true God”?

  16. on 08 Jan 2013 at 5:25 pmJohn

    Jas

    Grace is the means by which we can stay in fellowship with God even though we fall into sin. The power of Grace is that it teaches us to deny ungodliness. The commandments of God teach us what godly love and righteousness looks like. We don’t keep the commandments of God to be righteous for righteousness comes through Jesus but we do keep the commandments as an expression of love towards God and neighbor.

    Keeping the commandments of God is not a means to salvation, it’s a result of salvation.

  17. on 08 Jan 2013 at 5:36 pmJohn

    wolfgang

    God is one. God is invisible. No one has seen or heard God at anytime. God has manifested Himself through His Spirit in time and space without leaving eternity.

    Psalm 139:7-8 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

    The Spirit of God manifests the presence of God in a tangible through the Angel of the LORD and through an inspirational way through revelation.

    Notice all three working in redemption.

    Isaiah 63:8-10 For He said, “Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
    And He fought against them.

    I don’t pretend to know or understand all about of heavenly Father but we must use all of Scripture when forming our belief system.

  18. on 08 Jan 2013 at 5:43 pmJas

    John
    Sadly I must disagree because salvation has at least 3 distinct meanings.
    1.being saved from the first death coming to early
    2.being saved from certain eternal death because of lack of judgement .
    3. a prolonged life by the first resurrection which is the reward for taking hold of the Words of the Covenants by an effort to perform and teach them.

  19. on 08 Jan 2013 at 5:44 pmJohn

    Xavier

    You can’t understand this verse unless you understand how the invisible God who is called, YHWH reveals Himself.

    (Judges 13:21-23) – When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”

    Notice how when the people of God interacted with the Angel of the LORD they understood Him to be God. They even, as a form of worship, offered a sacrificed to Him and He accepted it.

    Angel means messenger. The messenger of YHWH is His word coming to His people through many divers ways in times past but in these last days His word has come to us in a flesh and body.

    (Hebrews 10:5) – Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.

    (John 1:14) – And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    (1 John 1:1-3) – That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

  20. on 08 Jan 2013 at 6:45 pmJohn

    Sarah

    YHWH compares Himself, as well as His people and plan, with many things to help us understand spiritual truths. And yes, YHWH compares Himself to a planted thing too.

    Hosea 14:8 “O Israel, stay away from idols! I (YHWH) am the one who answers your prayers and cares for you. I am like a tree that is always green; all your fruit comes from me.”

  21. on 08 Jan 2013 at 10:00 pmJohn

    Jas

    You are right when you say salvation is viewed in different phases in the Bible. The first step in salvation is justification. Justification is all the work of Jesus and is the first step of being saved. Justification has to do with being made right from a past wrong. No keeping of any Law can justify or cleans you of a past wrong, only the blood of Christ can. The second phase in the salvation process is sanctification. Sanctification is our part in the saving work of God in our lives. It has to do with obeying the truth as God reveals it to us. The final phase of the salvation process is glorification. This has to do with the resurrection and receiving of immortality and entering into eternity with God in the kingdom of God.

  22. on 08 Jan 2013 at 10:54 pmJas

    John
    The salvation that leads to being judged worthy of eternal life comes from Grace alone and is offered freely to ALL mankind from Adam to the last.
    There is no self justification ,sanctification or glorification because Jesus has allready reconciled God and mankind.You are just mixing two meanings then trying to create a new meaning by spiritualizing.
    All you are saved from is the certain eternal death from lack of judgement and as far a being judged worthy depends on your teatment of your fellow human.
    Everytime you see as a requirement belongs to the reward of a prolong(not eternal)life by the first resurrection into the land promise to Abraham and his covenant offsprings and those joined during the Sabbath rest of God.

  23. on 08 Jan 2013 at 11:39 pmSheryl

    Hi All…. Does anyone have a fairly clear idea of what salvation looks like then? Now that I’m out of the doctrine that teaches 1) you die and go to heaven or 2) you are raptured and go to heaven (and what happens after that has always been a mystery) I’d like to do a sort of status report of what I’ve gleaned so far from reading the Bible and studying from various teachers.

    Here is where I’m at right now: a person makes a conscious decision to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and lived a sinless life as the only begotten son of Yahweh, the one true God, was crucified and fulfilled prophecy proving he was God’s messiah, and finally was the first man of mankind to be resurrected. I’m not sure if that moment is when s/he is born again….or whether the new birth comes at resurrection.

    From that moment of belief on, the new believer begins a new life in Christ and transforms to a new being, trying to learn to live in the spirit instead of the flesh. S/he is “saved” for life in the age to come (opposed to eternal life?) and will enter the Kingdom on Earth at Jesus’ second coming…providing s/he has not fallen away from the faith and is not one of the people (liars, cheaters, fornicators, etc) mentioned as not allowed to enter the Kingdom.

    During the Messianic age the saints will be judging … not sure who. Are there people still outside the kingdom trying to clean up their act? I know people will be living longer…but doesn’t Isaiah predict that a man who dies at 200 will not be considered as living a full life? So there is life AND death in the age to come.

    I’m not sure when judgment is, but suspect it is perhaps an ongoing process during the millennium. It would probably take a thousand years to judge all of mankind from Adam and Eve. Then at the end the “goats and sheep” will be separated, Satan will be loosed for little while, then the final annihilation. And THEN, it will be back to life as it was meant to be…as in the Garden of Eden when Yahweh God can once more walk among his creation.

    So….”salvation” appears to be a process, perhaps even reaching into the age to come. Those who attain salvation are saved to life in the age to come….whether inside or outside the kingdom.

    Next I’ll ask what Paul means about putting on immortality if there is death in the age to come… !!

  24. on 09 Jan 2013 at 12:16 amtimothy

    Sheryl,

    Hello. I am pondering all the same things. Seems that there always are more things to consider and fit together with what I already believe or have been persuaded to believe.

    I clicked on Johns green name and am about to study his nice website which has the subject presented without the interruptions and counter criticisms which cloud my perception.

    Several friends here are also my FB friends. Are you on facebook too?

    agapao se’

    Timothy, who is ignorant

  25. on 09 Jan 2013 at 2:01 amBrian Keating

    Hi Sheryl,

    You raise some very good questions – about what salvation entails, and about who will be saved. As it turns out, I have done some research on those questions as well.

    From what I can see, it appears that not everyone will have the opportunity to be saved, during this age. In other words, some people will live and die during this age, without ever even having a chance to obtain salvation.

    There are two main reasons why a person would not have a chance to be saved during this age. One reason is that some people lack the ability to understand about God and Jesus. In other words, some people do not have the mental capacity to understand the Gospel message at all. An example of this would be a person who dies as a newborn baby – a baby simply does not have the ability to understand about God. A person who has severe mental disabilities would fall into this category as well.

    The other main reason why a person might not be able to be saved is that God might not “call” the person during this age. Basically, it appears that God is only calling a subset of people to salvation during this age – i.e., He is not trying to get everyone saved right now. So, if God does not call a given person, then that person will not be able to be saved during this age – because, as Jesus tells us, “no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him”.

    As it turns out, I have written articles about the two “categories” listed above. The article about people who are incapable of understanding about God can be found here. The article about God only calling a subset of people today can be found here.

    In any case, if a person is capable of understanding about God, and if God does call him, then that person certainly does have the opportunity to be saved during this age. So, if a person does have that opportunity, what will happen to him?

    It appears to me that if a person has the opportunity to be saved during this age – and if he is faithful to God during his life – then he will be granted immortal life, immediately after Jesus returns. In other words, that person will be immortal during the millennium (and ever after). These will be the people who assist Jesus in ruling during the millennium.

    On the other hand. if a person has the opportunity to be saved during this age – and if he consistently rejects God during his life – then he will be permanently destroyed, immediately after Jesus returns. In other words, that person will not be alive at all during the millennium (or ever after).

    However, if a person did not have the opportunity to be saved during this age, then what happens? It appears to me that those people will be resurrected after Jesus returns – but they will be resurrected to mortal life (not to immortal life). Then, those people will be given some finite period of time, to learn about God and Jesus – and to become faithful to God. I call this period of time their “judgement period”.

    If those people are faithful to God during their judgement period, then they will be granted everlasting life after that period. On the other hand, if those people reject God, then they will be destroyed after that time.

    The fact that those people are mortal during the millennium explains why some people will still be dying during that time. It also explains why the Gospel is still being spread, and people are still coming to salvation, during that period.

    Does all of this make sense? These are the conclusions that I have come to, after many, many hours of research and mulling…

    Brian

  26. on 09 Jan 2013 at 7:53 amWolfgang

    Hi

    it’s amazing what kind of fancyful speculation one can come up with in order to “explain” certain dilemmas which are caused by adherence to incorrect non-biblical doctrines such as “man is lost from birth, a born sinner” (which is why people in those categories mentioned above would need an oppoprtunity to be “saved”) and non-biblical speculation ideas about future kingdom etc …

    Biblically speaking, the problem of those “people who did not have the opportunity to be saved” doesn’t exist … because those categories of people mentioned as examples are not lost in the first place, since they never committed sin either! The false doctrine of “man is a born sinner” (“inherited sin from Adam”, etc.) is the problem!

    Furthermore, Biblically speaking, those questions pointing out certain dilemmas of understanding eschatological matters are easily answered or do not even exist as questions when understanding the matters relating to the coming of the Lord and kingdom, etc. correctly

  27. on 09 Jan 2013 at 8:28 amXavier

    John

    The messenger of YHWH is His word…

    So is that an angelic being or not?

  28. on 09 Jan 2013 at 9:38 amJohn

    Xavier

    The Bible uses the word, angel, to describe this manifestation who is called God, is worshiped, can forgive sin and who has the Father’s name. I am my father’s son so I have my father’s name.

    Here are some other uses of the word, angel.

    H4397 מַלאָך mal’ak (mal-awk’) n-m.
    1. a messenger
    2. specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher)
    [from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy]
    KJV: ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

    A messenger carries a message and a message contains words. When the Messenger of YHWH comes to His people He is coming as the word of YHWH.

    Now here is where the water gets muddy. Is this messenger a created angel or a manifestation or extension of God’s presence.

    Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old.

    If this Messenger is a tangible manifestation of the word of YHWH and we know YHWH is eternal and has never been without His word than this messenger eternal and is not a created being, but rather, He is a manifestation of how God, who lives in eternity, reveals Himself in time.

    To me, God is way above our ability to completely understand His eternal essence. We can draw from the Bible some principles that can help us to see and understand enough about God to have a personal relationship with Him but the day we can say we completely understand Him is the day He ceases to be YHWH.

    Isaiah 40:13 Who could know the Lord’s mind? Who could be his teacher or give him advice?

    Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

    YHWH is love so the closer we draw to Him, to be like Him, the more love we should have in our lives. Love is a mysterious thing.

  29. on 09 Jan 2013 at 9:52 amXavier

    John

    So for you angel can be both a personal being and an impersonal manifestation?

  30. on 09 Jan 2013 at 10:35 amJas

    Brian
    Very interesting thoughts.
    You are right that there will be those who live in the Sabbath age that will be living outside Israel.If the restoration of Israel comes within our lifetime then we might be amongst these people with a chance to be taught by Jacob the truth and then become a priest or king to the nations. Those of Israel will be given a body capable of living the whole millennium but even if they sleep again they will be raised at the second coming of Jesus where he gathers all mankind,the dead he redeemed and those living by the first resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgement that if found worthy eternal life in the presence of God will be given.During the time of judgement the earth will be completely restored then after heaven and the actual throne of God will be placed upon the renewed earth amongst man

  31. on 09 Jan 2013 at 10:43 amJohn

    Xavier

    I would say the message itself is impersonal but the messenger who carries the message is a personal being or a manifestation of a personal being. If God, through His Spirit, is spiritually inspiring you than it’s the personal presence of God working in you. In the old testament God spoke to His people both through inward inspiration and external manifestation.

  32. on 09 Jan 2013 at 11:16 amSarah

    Hi John,

    If this Messenger is a tangible manifestation of the word of YHWH and we know YHWH is eternal and has never been without His word than this messenger eternal and is not a created being, but rather, He is a manifestation of how God, who lives in eternity, reveals Himself in time.

    Generally speaking, a messenger is distinct from the one who sends him, is he not? Angels are spoken of in scripture as distinct from God, beings who can be charged with sin and punished for it. On what basis can we say that the Angel of The Lord is in some other category?

    I also think it’s very significant that the NT never once identifies Jesus as the Angel of The Lord. And further still, that the NT actually identifies the Angel of The Lord as truly being an angel (see Acts 7). The apostles went to great lengths to identify Jesus in OT prophecy. Yet they never once suggested Jesus was the Angel of The Lord.

    It’s interesting to note that Joshua was accompanied by the Angel of The Lord when he fought his enemies during his conquest of Canaan. Some suggest this angel was Jesus. Yet Jesus is the namesake of Joshua, and Joshua was a type of Christ. The parallel is between Joshua and Jesus, not the Angel of the Lord and Jesus. This is evident by the fact that Jesus will be *accompanied* by an archangel when he returns to conquer his enemies and obtain the land of his inheritance – a direct parallel with the story of Joshua (see 1 Thess 4:16, Rev 19:11-21).

    Through my research I have found that the idea of the Angel of The Lord as Jesus most likely originated with Justin Martyr. He was a thoroughly Hellenized Christian who was eager to prove Jesus’ pre-existence in order to harmonize Christianity with the ideas set forth in Plato’s creation myth “Timaeus.” This for me is the last nail in the coffin of the idea that Jesus pre-existed his birth as the Angel of The Lord.

  33. on 09 Jan 2013 at 11:43 amJas

    Sarah
    Your very correct that most false doctrines of the early church started with Justin then morphed . the virgin birth,replacement theology,pre existence of Jesus and many more.He and his school was more than likely the author of John ,the translator and the interpreter of Matthew adding the birth narrative from the gospel of James which odds are Justin was the author and the source of our greek Luke which he rewrote from the gospel Marcion brought to Rome. There is no telling what this man has done.

  34. on 09 Jan 2013 at 12:59 pmXavier

    John

    In the old testament God spoke to His people both through inward inspiration and external manifestation.

    Of course but one thing is a vision/revelation/dream etc., and another is an “angel of YHWH” right?

    Just trying to gauge if ANYONE on here would argue that the latter is some kind of impersonal “manifestation”.

  35. on 09 Jan 2013 at 2:14 pmJohn

    Sarah

    However you want to view the Angel of the LORD you cannot avoid or do away with how Scripture identifies Him. If He is not part of the personal manifestation of YHWH than we have a problem with the things YAWH says regarding Himself. You would also have a hard time reconciling such verses as these:

    (John 17:5) – And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    (Hebrews 1:8-10) – But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
    Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    Jesus, as the man, is the seed of David but He is also the Bright and Morning Star as the Angel of YHWH’s presence and the Angel of the covenant.

    (Revelation 22:16) – “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the Churches. I am both the root and stock of David, and the bright star of the morning!”

    Paul specifically says the Angel of the LORD who fooled Israel in the Old Testament was Christ.

    (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) – Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

    Paul also equates the attacks of serpents as being the result of testing Christ.

    (1 Corinthians 10:9) – We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.

  36. on 09 Jan 2013 at 4:01 pmJas

    Here are a few quotes from Justin Martyr’s First Apology
    Ch. 21

    And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

    Ch. 22

    And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated.

    And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius.

    The fact is Justin never really became a christian,he adopted christianity for to transform into a harmonization of his former belief which was very popular and very profitable for the roman church and his school

  37. on 09 Jan 2013 at 5:33 pmSarah

    John,

    Paul specifically says the Angel of the LORD who fooled Israel in the Old Testament was Christ.

    (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) – Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

    Paul also equates the attacks of serpents as being the result of testing Christ.

    (1 Corinthians 10:9) – We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.

    I think there is good reason to believe these two passages are allegorical rather than literal. The entire chapter is full of typology and figurative language, and it should also be noted that Paul never once actually says in these passages that Jesus is the Angel of the Lord. Rather, this is an inference that finds no other corroborative support in scripture. In fact, Hebrews 1 strongly argues *against* the idea that Jesus is an angel.

    Even trinitarian scholar James Dunn identifies these instances in 1 Cor 10 as allegorical:

    “It is hardly likely that Paul intended to identify Christ as the wilderness rock in any literal sense. So “the rock was Christ” must denote some sort of allegorical identification: The rock *represents* Christ in some way; as water from the rock,so spiritual drink from Christ.But is it an allegory of the realities *then* operative, or something more in the line of a *typological* allegory of the spiritual realities now experienced by the Corinthians? The latter seems the more probable, not least because Paul HIMSELF describes the whole affair as *types* and as happening to the Israelites *typologically* in verses 6 and 11.”

    http://yahislove.blogspot.com/2011/06/james-dunn-on-1-corinthians-104.html

  38. on 09 Jan 2013 at 8:02 pmSheryl

    Timothy, I am not on FB … But if you would like to email me (is this allowed?….guess I’ll find out!) my email is sheryl at sherylshaw dot com.

  39. on 09 Jan 2013 at 8:19 pmSheryl

    Hi Wolfgang,

    Bear with me, please, but I have a problem with your comments….I’m willing to investigate that mankind may not be born with sin nature, but on the surface it seems to go against what I’ve read in the Bible. Isn’t the whole reason that man dies precisely because of the sin nature passed on from Adam? And that is the reason Jesus had to be the perfect only sinless sacrifice? “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” All … not all who are not lost or any other qualifier. I consider it false doctrine to teach that man does NOT come into the world with a sin nature. If you’ve had children you know that they need to be trained to be good…they are inherently willing to be selfish and self-centered. I think Brian’s comments are valid and biblical … but I am still learning and ready to be taught. 🙂

    ….Perhaps this subject should be on a new post?

  40. on 09 Jan 2013 at 10:55 pmJohn

    Sarah

    We shouldn’t try to explain away verses that give us an uderstanding of other verses that we don’t understand lest we leave big gaps in our understanding of the Bible.

  41. on 10 Jan 2013 at 1:18 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    you mention “man is born with a sin nature” which is “passed on from Adam” … but where do we read of either in the Scriptures?

    I read that sin is the transgression of God’s commandments, etc. … that sin came into the world with the sin of Adam … I read of man sinning and thus bringing death upon himself, etc cp. Rom 5:12ff

    I do not read that “a sin nature is passed on to every man”. I do not read “every man from birth is a sinner and under condemnation”, etc …

  42. on 10 Jan 2013 at 4:27 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Brian has written:

    “consider these passages:

    Psalms 51: (ESV):
    5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
    and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Psalms 58: (ESV):
    3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
    they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

    Romans 3: (NIV):
    10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

    11 there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God”.

    The above passages indicate that no one is “naturally” righteous.”

    You write:

    “I do not read that “a sin nature is passed on to every man”. I do not read “every man from birth is a sinner and under condemnation”, etc ”

    Unrighteousness is sin!

    What do you read now?

    Timothy

  43. on 10 Jan 2013 at 5:45 amWolfgang

    Timothy

    the passages from Psa 51 and 58 should not be isolated and taken out of context but be understood in light of their context and also the overall scope of the Scriptures .

    You seem to adhere to the doctrine of “inherited sin” so that man does not need to transgress God’s commandments but is already a sinner before he even is aware of and knows how to discern and chose right or wrong? And you seem to have no problem with such a doctrine as being contradictory to the overall teaching of the Scriptures about sin ?

    Those passages still do NOT say anything about “a sin nature” nor about it being passed on in procreation !

    Also cp. the passage in Psa 58 … It speaks about “THE WICKED” … are you (or Brian or anyone else) claiming that all mankind is to be included in THE WICKED? or do you notice that Scripture makes a contrast between “the wicked” and others of mankind … where does Scripture say that the righteous “are estranged from the womb” or that the righteous “go astray from birth, speaking lies” ???
    As I pointed out with the example about Psa 58, the passages Brian and you mention should not be taken out of context nor be isolated form the overall scope regarding a subject .. which is unfortunately exactly what you are doing.

    I still do NOT read anything about “a sin nature is passed on to every man”, nor do I read “every man from birth is a sinner (a wicked fellow) and under condemnation” …

  44. on 10 Jan 2013 at 8:37 amSarah

    Wolfgang,

    I still do NOT read anything about “a sin nature is passed on to every man”, nor do I read “every man from birth is a sinner (a wicked fellow) and under condemnation” …

    Is it your position that man is born in a state like Adam and Eve prior to the fall?

    Would you agree that every human born under the curse (excepting Christ) will inevitably commit sin at some point in their lives?

  45. on 10 Jan 2013 at 8:46 amSarah

    John,

    The burden of proof is upon the one who claims Jesus is the Angel of The Lord, because neither Jesus nor his apostles ever say this is so, and because the Bible makes statements that clearly run contrary to this idea.

  46. on 10 Jan 2013 at 10:18 amJas

    “I still do NOT read anything about “a sin nature is passed on to every man”, nor do I read “every man from birth is a sinner (a wicked fellow) and under condemnation” …”

    I have agree with Wolfgang because there was not given anywhere in the Law for Righteousness a command for a sacrifice for a child.So sin must come after someone is old enough to know right from wrong not at birth.
    Plus I have never read anything in the bible that states that but have read it in the early church writings

  47. on 10 Jan 2013 at 10:35 amJohn

    Sarah

    The proof is in the facts and the burden is on God to help people see them. We know that God is invisible and has never been seen in fullness yet we find a manifestation who is identified as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Sacrifice and worship is offered to Him and He accepts it. He is equated with the presence of God. He has the Father’s name and is authorized to forgive sin. He is the Messenger or word of God because He brings the words of God. The Word was with God and the Word was God. He came to His own but they rejected Him. The Word became flesh and lived among us. John testifies how that which was with the Father from the beginning he saw and handled. During the last day of Jesus’s life on earth He asked with, a longing, to be in the presence of the Father just like He had BEFORE the world began. Jesus is not only the seed of David but He is also the Bright and Morning Star. There is so much more I can add to this but I’ll stop here.

  48. on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:07 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Genesis 5:

    5 “Adam”==Man
    8 “Seth”==Appointed
    11 “Enosh”==Mortal
    14 “Kenan”==Sorrow
    17 “Mahalalel”==The Blessed GOD
    20 “Jared”==Shall come down
    23 “Enoch”==Teaching
    27 “Methuselah”==His death shall bring
    31 “Lamech”==The Despairing
    32 “Noah”==Rest

    Reads:
    Man [has] Appointed Mortal Sorrow; [but] The Blessed GOD Shall Come Down Teaching, [and] His Death Shall Bring The Despairing, Rest.

    Genesis 6: (AMP)
    4 There were giants on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God lived with the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

    5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination and intention of all human thinking was only evil continually.

    6 And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved at heart.

    Were not all of these human beings “born”?

    Genesis 5:
    32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

    Only Noah, his wife, Shem, Ham, Japheth and their wives–eight living souls were saved from destruction by the ARK.

    What is your “THEORY” as to why:

    The Devil poluted the christ line?

    Tried to Kill the Christ line.

    And later why did GOD saved Lot and his two daughters from destruction at Sodom and Gomorrah?

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  49. on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:35 amJas

    “And later why did GOD saved Lot and his two daughters from destruction at Sodom and Gomorrah?”

    Timothy
    Because Abraham pleaded God to save the righteous there.
    Yes it is very important to understand why the land of Canaan was flooded,why Abraham was separated ,Why Tamar had to produce offsprings for Judah and why commandments were given to Israel to stay separate from other nations. Jesus’ bloodline had to stay separate from Cain’s

  50. on 10 Jan 2013 at 12:08 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    You are being “RUDE”, as usual, and hijacking my comments to Wolfgang.

    To KR moderator RSF:
    ***Kingdom Ready policy: Hijacking a post repeatedly (i.e. we all do this from time to time but if you do it constantly it really does become onerous)***

    Having selfcontrol is a fruit of the spirit and attribute of love of GOD.

    1 Corinthians 13: (KJV)
    3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

    5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

    6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

    7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

    8 Charity never faileth

    You have spoiled my comments to others time and time again. And now Wolfgang has had his freedom to answer, my work intensive post, stolen by you. I continually am forgiving you, as now.

    Ephesians 4:32
    And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

    Colossians 3:13
    Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

    still agapao se’

    Timothy

  51. on 10 Jan 2013 at 12:13 pmJas

    Timothy
    This is an open discussion but if you feel I have been rude to you by communicating with you then let me apologize . Maybe I dont understand what an open discussion is.

  52. on 10 Jan 2013 at 12:37 pmWolfgang

    Sarah,

    Is it your position that man is born in a state like Adam and Eve prior to the fall?

    Would you agree that every human born under the curse (excepting Christ) will inevitably commit sin at some point in their lives?

    it is my understanding that man is born in a state where he/she cannot commit sin and be a sinner because he/she is not able to act responsibly nor even know what is right or wrong.

    I would agree that all humans (except for Christ) have committed (or will commit) sin at some time in their lives as they grow up and thus bring curse and (eternal) death upon themselves … the way out being repentance and believing on Christ as the Messiah.

  53. on 10 Jan 2013 at 12:40 pmWolfgang

    Timothy,

    Were not all of these human beings “born”?

    sure they were born … BUT… were they sinners when they were born? or did they become sinners when they sinned?

  54. on 10 Jan 2013 at 12:43 pmSarah

    Wolfgang,

    Fair enough. Thanks for your input, I have more thinking to do on this topic…

  55. on 10 Jan 2013 at 12:49 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    John,

    I like to ask this question of everyone that believes Jesus is God: When did the apostles come to that realization? Why is that revelation not recorded anywhere in scripture? It defies logic that it would not be plastered all over the NT and not just in a handful of verses that are either ambiguous or inexplicit or both.

    Instead, all four gospels reconcile on this point: Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. If Jesus was God, then Matthew, Mark, Luke and even John forgot to tell us that clearly. The more I think about that, the more I find that unbelievable.

    I’d like to refute each of the verses you cite to show Jesus is God, but it gets tiresome rehashing the same verses over and over. If you want counters, I suggest you go to biblicalunitarian.com or google the ‘trinity delusion’. They have done a great job with most of those verses. For me, there are only a couple left that are curious, but that is insignificant compared to the bulk of the NT that clearly delineates Jesus from God. Once you put aside the assumption of the trinity, the dual nature of Jesus, and functional subordination (all syllogisms), and read the bible without those pre-suppositions, I think you will come to a very different but much simpler interpretation and see that the emperor has no clothes.

    Peace

  56. on 10 Jan 2013 at 1:43 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    I have agree with Wolfgang because there was not given anywhere in the Law for Righteousness a command for a sacrifice for a child.So sin must come after someone is old enough to know right from wrong not at birth.

    indeed … the Law does not command a sacrifice for a child. Also, there is the principle that there is no condemnation because of the sin of someone else! Thus, the idea that all mankind after Adam is under condemnation and are born sinners because of the sin of Adam can’t be correct. Man did not inherit sin (or “sin nature” — whatever that is supposed to be) from Adam.

  57. on 10 Jan 2013 at 1:53 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    I believe mankind lost fellowship or being in the presence physically with God when Adam broke the covenant offered. I also belief that Jesus fully followed all covenants that God made with man allowing man to physically be in the presence of God again which allows man to stand before God at final judgement therefore saving man from certain eternal death.This is the Grace

  58. on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:08 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    I too would say that man lost his connection / his means of communication with God the very day, when he sinned and thus was under the sentence /condemnation of (eternal) death.
    Now, seeing that God is SPIRIT (and not a Being/Person in a physical shape), I would conclude that “being in the presence of God” can NOT mean being present in a “physical” manner. I would say that even in the garden, man was NOT physically in the presence of God, but rather was in the presence of God by means of “a SPIRIT connection” … or does someone really want to argue that God was a physical Being/Person Who was physically present in the garden?
    Since there was no “being in the presence physically with God” in the garden, it follows for the same reasons that there can’t nor won’t be a “being in the presence physically with God” again at some time in the future.

    All the ideas of resurrected people being physical people being in the presence physically with God on earth in the kingdom or afterwards or whatever are unfounded assumptions

  59. on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:10 pmSarah

    Well said, Tim (aka Antioch). You got right to the crux of issue!

  60. on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:11 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    My use of physically would be better descibed as personally

  61. on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:31 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    so then how do you mean “personally” ? was God or did God become a “physical” person in whose presence man (as a “physical” person) was / will be? Or was and is God a SPIRIT person and man originally had a “spirit” connection and thus was in God’s presence “spiritually” … and therefore in the future will again be in God’s presence as a “spirit” person?

  62. on 10 Jan 2013 at 2:49 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    I dont believe that man can be in the presence of God in his natural physical form. I believe after final judgement if found worthy of eternal life we will receive a spiritual form but this is after the second resurrection which your question is aimed after the first resurrection where God is making good his promise to Abraham which I believe we receive a physical body much like the one Adam was left with after he sinned. i also believe during this time God will rest his Sabbath again and Jesus will sit upon Gods throne in heaven exercising the authority that was given him while Satan is locked up then after returning the throne back to God then God releasing satan one last time to test mankind or satan which we know satan will fail and be destroyed

  63. on 10 Jan 2013 at 3:09 pmJohn

    Tim (aka Antioch)

    There are many verses that reveal the Father and Son as God.

    Thomas came to realize Jesus was God.

    Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Luke tells us that it was God who visited His people.

    (Luke 7:15-17) – So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother. Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” And this report about Him went throughout all Judea and all the surrounding region.

    This is confirmed again here.

    (Matthew 1:23) – “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    The Father and Son through the power of God’s eternal Spirit equate to the Divine nature of the one true God.

    (1 John 5:20) – We know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    The Father and Son is true God and eternal life.

    (John 17:3) – This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    The Father, Son make up God’s divine nature. The Father and Son, as well as, the eternal Spirit were all involved in creation.

    (Hebrew 1:8-9) – But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    There is so much more I can say but I’ll stop here.

  64. on 10 Jan 2013 at 4:31 pmSarah

    John,

    (Luke 7:15-17) – So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother. Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” And this report about Him went throughout all Judea and all the surrounding region.

    (Ex 4:29-31) – Then Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all the elders of the people of Israel. Aaron spoke all the words that the LORD had spoken to Moses and did the signs in the sight of the people. And the people believed; and when they heard that the LORD had visited the people of Israel and that he had seen their affliction, they bowed their heads and worshiped.

  65. on 10 Jan 2013 at 5:07 pmJohn

    Sarah

    (Luke 7:15-17) – So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother. Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” And this report about Him went throughout all Judea and all the surrounding region.

    These words, God has visited His people, were spoken here because Jesus had just brought a dead girl back to life. It goes on to say how this report about Jesus went throughout all Judea and the surrounding region. The people were coming to realize that God had visited them in the same way Thomas came to realize the nature of Jesus.

  66. on 10 Jan 2013 at 6:20 pmSarah

    John,

    My point in posting that verse from the OT is that a precedent has been set regarding this phrase “God visiting his people” and what it means. I’m sure you’d agree with me that Aaron was not God, and yet scripture says God “visited his people” in reference to the signs and wonders Aaron did. Clearly this phrase cannot be used as proof that Jesus is God, lest you be required by your same logic to say that Aaron also was God.

    In both passages, Ex 4:29-31 and Luke 7:15-17, God visited his people in the sense that he empowered a particular man to perform the signs and wonders in the sight of the people. As the last Adam, Jesus is far superior to Aaron in status, but he is still 100% human being – contrary to the Platonic ideas that infiltrated the church’s interpretation of the Bible centuries ago.

  67. on 10 Jan 2013 at 6:45 pmJohn

    Sarah

    These following things are never said about Aaron or any other man.

    (John 20:28) – And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    (John 17:5) – And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    (Hebrew 1:8-9) – But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    (1 John 5:20) – We know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    Notice in above verses how the Father and Son equates to true God.

    (Matthew 1:23) – “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us”.

    It’s no doubt that Jesus, as the seed of David, was 100% man but that’s only half truth because Jesus is also the Bright and Morning Star.

  68. on 10 Jan 2013 at 7:42 pmSheryl

    Hi John,

    May God richly bless you!

    I’d like to respond to your Heb 1 quotations that you believe affirm Jesus as being the one true Yahweh God.

    I believe that the second part of the verse, Heb 1:9, makes clear that the first part does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh, but “a” god. A human above all other humans. God is exalting Jesus, his obedient begotten human son. Otherwise why say “therefore God, YOUR God, has set you above your companions.” God is affirming that even Jesus, who is ranked higher above any other created or begotten being, still has a God. This interpretation appears to conform better to the entire bible, IMHO.

    Also, regarding your last sentence…could it be that Jesus is called the bright and morning star because he is the first of the new creation; ie the first resurrected man? The star of the first new morning? Anyway, that’s how I see it.

  69. on 10 Jan 2013 at 8:13 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    You can’t just take out bits and pieces that fit your belief system.

    I agree that there are many verses that speak of the humanity of Jesus but there just as many that speak of something more than humanity. Something about the man Jesus existed in the Father’s presence before taken on a body.

    (Hebrews 10:5) – Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.

    (John 17:5) – And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    (Hebrew 1:8-9)…He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

  70. on 10 Jan 2013 at 9:36 pmDoubting Thomas

    Luke 2:52,

    “And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.”

    How could God (in the 2nd person) increase in stature and in favour with God???

  71. on 11 Jan 2013 at 3:01 amSheryl

    Hi John,

    It was taking “bits and pieces” and not looking at the entire bible all the way through that had me thoroughly confused. Only when I realized that Jesus was God’s son and not Yahweh, but a real human being, could I finally make sense of the bible.

    Regarding Hebrews 10 — If you read your offered verse in context you will know that V 5 is a quote from Psalm 40 (6-8). What is being taught is that the old sacrifice of animals and burnt offerings has been done away with. That the sacrifice of Jesus “body” (prepared for him) is the final sacrifice to provide us with righteousness. Just like we “sacrifice” our bodies (flesh) to spiritual death when we take up our cross and follow Jesus. ….The OT was quoted much, to prove that Jesus was the true Messiah, as you know, I’m sure.

    Regarding John 17 … we read in two preceding verses Jesus saying that eternal life is to know the one true God AND (not “who is”) Jesus whom He has sent. In the next verse Jesus tells God he has completed the task he was assigned to do and has brought God glory on earth as a result. In the next verse (5) Jesus is requesting the glory from God that he was promised at the fulfillment of his mission…the glory that God had ready to give him. When you continue on in the chapter it is abundantly clear that Jesus is speaking to his God and our God about us….he is not speaking to himself, nor is he speaking from a second nature. I would also like to point out especially verses 20-22….apparently Jesus wasn’t the only one who had glory with the Father. Jesus has also already given you, John, the same glory…so that you (and all believers) can be one with Jesus and in perfect unity with God. So you can say on judgement day, “Give me the glory that I had with you.” (Halleluiah!)

    In Heb 1 it starts out with the assertion that in prior days God spoke through prophets. And so several prophetic verses are illustrated. Heb 1:8-9 are a direct quote from David’s Psalm speaking about Yahweh God. God also states quite clearly in several passages that he alone created the heavens and earth. If Jesus was with him at creation why didn’t he simply say “I and my son created the heavens and earth” and save us all this fuss?

    In fact, why didn’t Jesus just simply say “I am God your father come to earth to save you.” But if he wasn’t Yahweh in skin and WAS the human son of God, wouldn’t this man have insisted that he was the SON of God? And isn’t that exactly what the NT says over and over? Doesn’t Jesus continuously refer to himself as the Son of God or, in case we get confused and think he is God….the Son of Man (human) ??

    I look at it this way…. if Jesus wanted us to know for sure who he was, he would have stated with crystal clarity that he was the SON of God and he would never refer to himself as God the Son. And that’s exactly how the NT reads.

  72. on 11 Jan 2013 at 3:15 amTim (aka Antioch)

    John,

    Hardly bits and pieces…

    In each of the passages below, only the Father is referred to explicitly as God, never the Son or the Holy Spirit. This meshes perfectly with a Unitarian perspective but seems to me a startling omission (by most
    of the NT authors) if the trinity was known to be the truth.

    John 17:3 – Now this is eternal life: that they know you [the Father], the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    John 20:17 – I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

    Rom 15:6 – so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Cor 1:3 – Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

    2 Cor 11:31 – The God and Father of the Lord Jesus

    Eph 1:3 (also in 1:2) – Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

    1 Thes 1:3 – We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith

    1 Thes 3:11 – Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus clear the way for us to come to you

    James 1:27 – Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

    1 Pet 1:3 – Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

    2 John1:3 – Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son

    Jude 1 – To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:

    Rev 1:1 – The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

    Rev 1:6 – has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father

    Other verses, canonically, which I suggest require some mental gymnastics to harmonize them with the doctrine of the trinity, but are very straightforward from a Unitarian perspective…

    Numbers 23:19 – God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind

    Deuteronomy 6:4 – Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one (this one is most troubling as it is such a weighty passage; making ‘echad’ into ‘compound unity’ which makes God into a parser of words; Jesus did not revise the verse but affirmed it in Mark 12:32 et al)

    Deuteronomy 18:15 – The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

    Psalm 110:1 The LORD says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” (Adoni vs Adonai, and clearly unequal ‘lords’)

    Ezekiel 34:23-24 – I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken. (this is messianic, Jesus is prince, Yahweh is God)

    Matthew 6:9-10 – This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (Jesus instructs us to pray to the Father, for it is the Father’s will (not Gods) that is to be done on earth as it is the Father’s will (not Gods) that is done in heaven.)

    Matthew 12:18 – “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

    Matthew 12:32 – Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (equality in the godhead??)

    Matthew 26:39 – My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” (two wills?)

    Matthew 27:46 Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (How could Jesus say such a thing if he had any access at all to his ‘God side’?)

    Mark 13:32 – “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

    Luke 2:52 – And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man

    John 1:18 – No one has ever seen God (but Jesus was seen)

    John 10:29 My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all…

    John 10:33-37 – “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
    Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (Jesus corrects them, he does not claim to be God but the son of God)

    John 17:3 – Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    John 17:21-22 – that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you
    gave me, that they may be one as we are one—(more of an argument against modalism but also speaks to the claim that Father and Son are both God cause it would also mean we are God)

    John 20:31 – But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    Acts 2:22-24 – Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This
    man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him

    Acts 2:36 – “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    Acts 2:38 – Peter said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (goes against Mt 28:19 baptismal formula)

    Acts 10:38 – how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. (God was with him, not God was him)

    Romans 5:19 – For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Paul never refers to Jesus as God or a God/man, but only as a man)

    Roman 8:17 – Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ (Christ cannot be the heir of himself and we cannot be co-heirs with someone who is God.)

    Romans 8:34 – Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. (Can’t be God if he is at the right hand of God)

    1 Corinthians 8:6 – yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (explicit)

    1 Corinthians 11:3 – But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (not co-equal)

    1 Corinthians 15:28 – When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all (not co-equal)

    Ephesians 4:5-6 – one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    Colossians 1:15 – The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (the image of is not the object, the image of Caesar on the coin is not Caesar)

    1 Timothy 2:5 – For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

    Hebrews 3:1 – Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. (rather demeaning titles for someone who is God)

    Hebrews 5:8-10 – Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

    James 1:13 – For God cannot be tempted by evil (Jesus was tempted)

    1 John 4:14 – And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

    Sorry for the length of the post.

  73. on 11 Jan 2013 at 11:31 amJohn

    (Judges 13:21-23) – When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”Doubting Thomas, Sheryl, Tim (aka Antioch,

    First of all the Angel of the LORD and Jesus are not YAHWEH, but rather, they are manifestations used by YAHWEH in time and space to interact with His people.

    1 Timothy 3:14-16 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

    A miracle is something we know happens but we don’t really know how it happens but by faith we believe. Because of this we end up calling it a mystery.

    The Angel of the LORD and Jesus are by nature God because they manifest God’s presence in time and space.

    Philippine 2:6-7 “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.”

    A manifestation is never greater that what it’s manifesting nor is He who is sent greater than He who sends.

    Without understanding this you cannot understand how the Angel of the LORD is revealed in the Bible nor can you understand how Jesus was in the presence of the Father before the world began. Jesus spoke many times of things He saw and understood before becoming flesh and dwelling among us.

  74. on 11 Jan 2013 at 11:38 amJohn

    Doubting Thomas, Sheryl, Tim (aka Antioch),

    First of all the Angel of the LORD and Jesus are not YAHWEH, but rather, they are manifestations used by YAHWEH in time and space to interact with His people.

    (Judges 13:21-23) – When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”

    (1 Timothy 3:14-16 ) – These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

    A miracle is something we know happens but we don’t really know how it happens but by faith we believe. Because of this we end up calling it a mystery.

    The Angel of the LORD and Jesus are by nature God because they manifest God’s presence in time and space.

    Philippine 2:6-7 “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.”

    A manifestation is never greater that what it’s manifesting nor is He who is sent greater than He who sends.

    Without understanding this you cannot understand how the Angel of the LORD is revealed in the Bible nor can you understand how Jesus was in the presence of the Father before the world began. Jesus spoke many times of things He saw and understood before becoming flesh and dwelling among us.

  75. on 11 Jan 2013 at 12:28 pmSheryl

    I’m about to run off to work and will read the rest of your post later, John, but in regards to:

    “First of all the Angel of the LORD and Jesus are not YAHWEH, but rather, they are manifestations used by YAHWEH in time and space to interact with His people.”

    I’m sorry, but that makes Jesus sound very inhuman. Yes, Yahweh “used” Jesus to teach us the ways of Yahweh, and provide us with salvation…but Jesus was a human being who had his own will and purposely emptied himself to allow God to fully work through him. I don’t believe Jesus was just a skin for God to wear on earth.

    more later… 🙂

  76. on 11 Jan 2013 at 12:53 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    John,

    Two of your recent quotes are verses that are in dispute amongst trinitarian translations as to what they actually say. 1 Tim 3:16, in NIV and NASB for example, does not say ‘God was manifest’ but ‘He was manifest’. Phil 2 is perhaps the most widely debated passage even amongst trinitarians as to what Paul was really saying, what is ‘morphe’ really implying, outward manifestation or inward ontology?

    While I have my beliefs on the relationship of Jesus and the Father, I have a much firmer belief in what the most important point of scripture is – love God and love people. Whether Jesus is God or is not God, I don’t see where that has any impact on living out the greatest commandment. Are we judged by our heart or by our knowledge?

    Love and Peace

  77. on 11 Jan 2013 at 1:06 pmJas

    “Are we judged by our heart or by our knowledge?”

    Tim
    That depends on whether you believe there is just one judgement or if you believe there is just one resurrection

  78. on 11 Jan 2013 at 9:56 pmJohn

    Tim (aka Antioch)

    The way I understand language is that the context determines who the (He) is. The subject of the verses is God so the (He) must also be God.

    (1 Timothy 3:14-16 ) – These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of (God), which is the church of the living (God), the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: (God) was manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

    How do you feel about Thomas’ conclusion?

    John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    How about Peter’s conclusion?

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    How about Paul’s conclusion?

    Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

    How about Isaiah’s conclusion?

    Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    How about God’s conclusion?

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    I agree with you in that we should not determine who is a Christian based on their understanding of the divine nature of God, since it’s not an easy thing to understand. I believe he who sees their need for a Savior and receives Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior then to me they are a Christian. All the rest is an in house debate.

  79. on 11 Jan 2013 at 11:01 pmSarah

    John,

    You really haven’t offered any answers to Tim’s challenges. What are we to do with the straightforward statement in the book of Numbers that God is not a man, nor a son of man? How about the fact that Jesus has a God (Romans 15:6, 2 Cor 11:31, Jn 20:17, etc, etc)? Shall we then say that God has a God? How about the fact that Jesus prayed, ‘Not my will but thine’? Or the fact that he prayed at all? Does God pray to himself?
    How about the fact that Peter’s sermon in Acts plainly identified God as the Father and Jesus as a man, and yet this message procured the salvation of the very men who delivered Jesus to his death?

    I believe these and countless other problematic issues are legitimate, significant, and must be adequately answered by the Trinitarian system – because God does not present himself in scripture as three, or as three-in-one, but as ONE, from Genesis to Revelation.

    The verses you cited should be examined carefully and objectively from the perspective of the ancient Hebraic worldview instead of the Hellenized worldview we have inherited. Any system of interpretation that borrows from Plato is a shaky foundation indeed, regardless of how long it has been around or how widely it is held. I second Tim’s recommdation of the Trinity Delusion and Biblical Unitarian websites. ChristianMonotheism.com is another great one. These present a thorough exegesis of each passage you’ve quoted. I would also highly recommend the articles on this blog that deal with church history, in order to trace the Trinitarian system of thought to its roots.

    It doesn’t sound to me like you’re particularly concerned about the problems with Trinitarianism, but if you should ever feel so led, these websites would be excellent resources.

  80. on 12 Jan 2013 at 4:00 amtimothy

    Tim (aka Antioch)

    You are exposing many things about Our Lord Jesus Christ and how he revealed GOD to the world for human kind to see GODs loving nature. He always did what GOD was telling him to do and is the example for our repentance.

    Your posted in # 72:

    “John 17:21-22 – that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

    May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

    I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—

    ***(more of an argument against modal-ism but also speaks to the claim that Father and Son are both God cause it would also mean we are God)***”

    Apostle Paul wrote by revelation from Jesus Christ:

    Be Imitators of God

    Ephesians 5: (NASB)
    1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;

    2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

    1 Corinthians 4:16
    Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

    1 Corinthians 11:1
    Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    Philippians 3:17
    Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an en sample.

    GOD is in Christ and Christ is in us. Paul saw this as Christ being in himself. He imitated GOD by immitating Christ.

    Colossians 1: (kjv)
    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    We can immitate GOD by immitating Christ while immatating Paul.

    Romans 12: (kjv)
    2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    2 Corinthians 5: (kjv)
    5 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    2 Corinthians 5: (kjv)
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    Jesus Christ is not now present. However he, our parakletos, is ever present where there is a christian. If and when the christian manifest their parakletos the world will be seeing GOD as Christ demostated GOD by “loving with the agape love of GOD”

    I believe that christians were with GOD just like being claimed that Jesus was with GOD.(figuratively)

    Ephesians 1: (kjv)
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    14 Which is the earnest(token) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Romans 8: (kjv)
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    This is the proof verse…proof that one is born again. Holy spirit gives our parakletos words and we utter these words by speaking in tongues.

    Acts 2: (kjv)
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    I repeat:

    Romans 8: (kjv)
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    This is the proof verse…proof that one is born again. Holy spirit gives our parakletos words and we utter these words by speaking in tongues.

    Acts 2: (kjv)
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    So Tim (aks Antioh) I too do not believe Jesus Christ is any less than a human being, spotless, and the perfect sacrifice to GOD for the redemption of mankind. The others view that he was GOD is just not logical and is likened to this classic verse:

    Jeremiah 2: (kjv)
    13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

    Please allow Tim (aka Antioch) to receive this into manifestation FIRST!

    agapao se’,

    Timothy

  81. on 12 Jan 2013 at 4:37 amJohn

    Sarah

    I too believe the Trinity doctrine is of Antichrist. I believe there is one God and Father of all who is above all and in all.

    Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    But I also believe the one God is eternal and dwells in eternity steps into time without leaving eternity through His Spirit.

    Psalm 139:7-8 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

    When the Spirit of God manifests God’s presence in time and space that manifestation is of the same God nature as God Himself yet is subordinate to God in all things.

    Listen and read carefully for this God manifesting to His people in such a way they we can see God and live. God’s mediator is equated with God by nature yet He is not God.

    Genesis 22:10-12 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But (the Angel of the Lord called to him) from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since (you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me).”

    And again…

    Exodus 3:2 And the (Angel of the Lord appeared to him) in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

    Who was this Angel of the LORD? Listen.

    Exodus 3:5-6 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

    And again…

    Judges 2:1 Then the (Angel of the Lord) came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: (“I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you.)

    It was the Angel of the LORD who led them out of Egypt through the wilderness experience yet Paul identifies Him as Christ.

    1 Corinthians 10:1-9 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;

    And again…

    Judges 13:17-23 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?” (And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”) So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”

    Notice His name is called wonderful now notice the name Jesus is called.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. (And His name will be called Wonderful), Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    And again…

    Notice how David shall be like God and being like God is like being the Angel of the LORD before them.

    Zechariah 12:8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them.

    The Angel of the LORD is the manifestation of God’s presence.

    Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, And (the Angel of His Presence) saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old.

    The Angel of the LORD is the messenger of the covenant. The LORD whom the seek will come to His temple through the Angel of the LORD.

    Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

    This happens when the Angel of the LORD becomes flesh and dwells among us in the temple of the body of Christ.

    John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days (I will raise it up).

    Who will raise up the temple?

    The Angel of the LORD is a manifestation of God’s presence through His Spirit. He is called the word of God because He is the Messenger of the LORD.

    He came to His people but they rejected Him.

    Isaiah 63:8-10 For He said, “Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, and He fought against them.

    Listen to John recap this…

    John 1:1-12 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

    Jesus is the Angel of God’s presence in human flesh. He was glorified in the Father’s presence before the world began yet, through His love and grace, He gave all that up for us when He partook of sinful flesh.

    2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

    Psalm 2:12 Submit to God’s royal son, or he will become angry, and you will be destroyed in the midst of all your activities—for his anger flares up in an instant. But what joy for all who take refuge in him!

    Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Jesus is by nature God yet He is not YAHWEH.

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

    I know these things are hard to grasp but they are of God and by faith we know they happened but how they happen is where we need faith.

    Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

  82. on 12 Jan 2013 at 9:24 amSarah

    John,

    I too believe the Trinity doctrine is of Antichrist. I believe there is one God and Father of all who is above all and in all.

    So would it be accurate to say you are a Binitarian?

    The problem with the purported proof texts that Jesus is an angel is the string of inferences you have to make, as well as the contradictory evidecne you have to ignore.

    Why does Hebrews 1 tell us the son is SUPERIOR to angels, and make a sharp distinction between angels and the son of God? We are warned in NT scripture not to worship angels, but according to your view, those who bow before Jesus are worshipping an angel.

    Why did Stephen identify the Angel of The Lord who spoke in the burning bush as simply an angel in his Acts 7 sermon? Couple this with the fact that Jesus said “God” spoke in the burning bush (Mark 12:26) rather than “I” spoke or “we” spoke, and you have an angel speaking on behalf of God who is NOT Jesus. This is how any Jew would have understood Jesus’ words based on OT scripture. If Jesus is the Angel of The Lord, it would seem that he forgot to mention this to his disciples.

    Jesus is going to be accompanied by an archangel at his return. THAT is almost certainly the Angel of The Lord – the same angel who accompanied Joshua into Canaan. I think this close association between the Angel of the Lord and Jesus is the reason why some conflate the two.

  83. on 12 Jan 2013 at 9:45 amSarah

    Timothy,

    Good list of verses in post #80. Thanks for sharing them.

  84. on 12 Jan 2013 at 10:00 amJohn

    Sarah

    The word, angel means messenger. Is not Jesus the messenger of YAHWEH?

    This is what Hebrews says about Jesus.

    Hebrews 1:4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    Jesus became better than the angels through His inheritance because He received and more excellent name because of it. What was He prior to this?

    Jesus had personal knowledge of life with the Father before He became flesh and dwelt among us.

    John 3:10-13 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, (I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness). If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven).

    John 3:31-32 (He who comes from heaven is greater than all others) he who comes from earth is of the earth, and of the earth are his words: he who comes from heaven is over all. (He gives witness of what he has seen and of what has come to his ears); and no man takes his witness as true.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only he who is from God, (he has seen the Father).

    He longed to be back in the presence of His Father, just like He had before the world was.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

    I understand how these things are hard to grasp but just because we can’t fully understand YAHWEH through the glass darkly we were given we should not avoid or make light of the things God has given us about Himself.

  85. on 12 Jan 2013 at 10:42 amSarah

    John,

    This excerpt from an article at BiblicalUnitarian.com says it well:

    There are also verses that say Jesus was “sent from God,” a phrase that shows God as the ultimate source of what is sent. John the Baptist was a man “sent from God” (John 1:6), and it was he who said that Jesus “comes from above” and “comes from heaven” (John 3:31). When God wanted to tell the people that He would bless them if they gave their tithes, He told them that He would open the windows of “heaven” and pour out a blessing (Mal. 3:10 – KJV). Of course, everyone understood the idiom being used, and no one believed that God would literally pour things out of heaven. They knew that the phrase meant that God was the origin of the blessings they received. Still another example is when Christ was speaking and said, “John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven or from men?” (Matt. 21:25). Of course, the way that John’s baptism would have been “from heaven” was if God was the source of the revelation. John did not get the idea on his own, it came “from heaven.” The verse makes the idiom clear: things could be “from heaven,” i.e., from God, or they could be “from men.” The idiom is the same when used of Jesus. Jesus is “from God,” “from heaven” or “from above” in the sense that God is his Father and thus his origin.

    The idea of coming from God or being sent by God is also clarified by Jesus’ words in John 17. He said, “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world” (John 17:18). We understand perfectly what Christ meant when he said, “I have sent them into the world.” He meant that he commissioned us, or appointed us. No one thinks that we were in heaven with Christ and incarnated into the flesh. Christ said, “As you have sent me, I have sent them.” So, however we take the phrase that Christ sent us, that is how we should understand the phrase that God sent Christ.

    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/john-3-13

  86. on 12 Jan 2013 at 10:48 amSarah

    John,

    You wrote:

    I understand how these things are hard to grasp but just because we can’t fully understand YAHWEH through the glass darkly we were given we should not avoid or make light of the things God has given us about Himself.

    My heart’s desire is to know God’s word accurately and to worship him in spirit and in truth. I am sure the same is true for you too.

  87. on 12 Jan 2013 at 12:17 pmtimothy

    John,

    You wrote:

    “I understand how these things are hard to grasp but just because we can’t fully understand YAHWEH through the glass darkly we were given we should not avoid or make light of the things God has given us about Himself.”

    This is about seeing Jesus Christ, when in our new Resurrected body, at his return…not about understanding YAHWEH. There is no seeing YAHWEH, maybe not even for Jesus now at his right hand.

    We do see YAHWEH in the loving Jesus by his behavior. We can see him in Paul and each other. And others are to be seeing him in us as we renew and transform our minds(heart). One may pray for YAHWEH to give us a righteous heart.

    1 Corinthians 13: (kjv)
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    When Jesus Christ returns, the christians will be resurrected/changed and be in their new perfect body.

    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    In their resurrected body the christian will see Jesus Christ as he is and *then face to face*.

    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    1 Corinthians 2: (kjv)
    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    The love of YAHWEH is something you and others experience.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf6ze7ZI38

    agapao se'(modern se’ agapao)

    Timothy

  88. on 12 Jan 2013 at 1:00 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    I am enjoying the discussion.

    John – I understand a bit better where you are coming from. I don’t think we are that far off. I think a key difference is the notion of ‘agency’. From the NET Study Bible about Gen 48:16:

    Jacob closely associates God with an angelic protective presence. This does not mean that Jacob viewed his God as a mere angel, but it does suggest that he was aware of an angelic presence sent by God to protect him. Here he so closely associates the two that they become virtually indistinguishable. In this culture messengers typically carried the authority of the one who sent them and could even be addressed as such. Perhaps Jacob thought that the divine blessing would be mediated through this angelic messenger.

    I look to Joseph and his relationship with Pharaoh as analagous to Jesus and God. “You shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you.” Joseph is not the Pharoah’s ‘avatar’ but a separate person. He has been given the signet ring and acts for Pharoah. Your thoughts on agency?

    Timothy – thank you for the post. It helped remind me of what it means to have ‘Christ dwell in us’ and how we can do no better than to follow him. When we do we essentially channel God’s love and what better example can we be to those that do not know God?

    Sarah – as always your points are right on and succinct.

  89. on 12 Jan 2013 at 2:18 pmWolfgang

    Timothy,

    GOD is in Christ and Christ is in us. Paul saw this as Christ being in himself.

    This statement appears to indicate that Christ is in us the same way as God is in Christ … now then, how was God in Christ? how is Christ in us?

    I understand the expression “Christ in you” in Col 1:27 in light of the later passage in Col 3:16 …. Christ is in us as the word of Christ dwell in our hearts. It is by means of the word of Christ “residing” in our hearts, that Christ is in us.

  90. on 12 Jan 2013 at 2:22 pmHayal Meir Talmid

    I am new to this blog so I haven’t read everything here yet. I hope, though, that I have read enough to fit in and not be off-topic or out of order.

    I am a Nazarene Jew. Most “Messianic Jews” are trinitarian. As I became a disciple of the Messiah (in 1972, or so) and found out about Messianic Judaism, I soon ran headlong into the trinitarian rule of contemporary Messianic Judaism (MJ). On the one hand, trinitarian theology is just as dogmatic and wrong as the mainstream Jewish rejection of the New Testament and Covenant. I believe, in fact, that these two phenomena, “Christian” trinitarianism and the “Jewish” rejection of the Messiah (Yeshua) really are just two aspects of a single thing: Anti-Messiah, aka the worship of the beast, doctrine of the Nicolaitans, etc. Notice, for example, that both “Christian” and “Jewish” anti-Messianic discrimination are Roman. Trinitarian dogma is Roman Catholic dogma, and what did Caiaphas and Company say when Pontius Pilate declared Yeshua innocent and the King of Yisrael? “We have no king but Caesar!” They pledged allegiance to Rome, to paganism, to Satan, which is one of many ways in which the Word points to Rome (in a broad sense) as the main culprit in the world to this day.

    What is weird, though, is that when one tries to inform people about the obvious wrongness and evil of trinitarian dogma, it’s like climbing Mount Everest—it’s a very, very uphill battle, which is why most people don’t get too far in that direction. What this means is that something very powerful indeed must be “tilting the playing field” radically to maintain the trinitarian advantage in Western civilization. For many years, therefore, I have been doing research to figure out what this very powerful something is and how we might do something about it—how we might “level the playing field.” This, in fact, is my career.

    Some people in this blog have suggested that trinitarian dogma is delusional, anti-Christ, etc. That is why I think that this post is not off-topic and why I am posting this message here. My conclusion is that trinitarian dogma is that which is referred to in the Word as 666, the worship of the beast, mark of the beast, etc. When I say this, even non-trinitarians may think I am going too far. Well, when I first heard such an idea, I, too, was skeptical, but subsequent experience convinced me otherwise. Just to try to document that these ideas may not be as crazy as they seem, consider these words of Isaac Newton, “the greatest scientist” ever:

    “Posit.
    The Ecclesiasticall hierarchy of the triunitarian Church commencing after the death of Constantius &, headed by the Bishops of Rome & Alexandria, was the two horned Beast” (see http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/view/texts/normalized/THEM00192 for more information).

    After exhaustive, comprehensive research, one of the greatest minds ever also concluded, not only that something is very fishy about trinitarian dogma but also that the more you sniff that fishy smell, the worse it gets.

    But there’s more: Much more! Guess what the US and most other flags of the nations stand for: Trinitarian dogma! That is the real reason why the flag has three colors and 13 stripes: Three colors and a unity, and one and three in the number 13. Other than my website, I don’t know where else you can see that idea in print because it’s one of the main secrets of Freemasonry, maintained by blood oaths—if you tell, and you’re a Mason, you’re dead, and not a pretty death. Now we begin to see how the use of distortion and violence coupled with politics and religion—Masonic, “Bonesmen,” and other occult capturing of positions of wealth and power in the world–work to perpetuate the insanity of the “Jewish” rejection of the Messiah, the “Christian” imposition of trinitarian dogma on the “sheep,” and the Islamic reaction to this Judeo-Christian apostasy. Now we begin to see how trinitarian dogma plays a key role in dividing the world into contemporary warring powers. Now we begin to see why trinitarians are so grouchy.

    Once we begin to see these things, once we begin to understand the root of contemporary problems, we are on the road to recovery.

  91. on 12 Jan 2013 at 2:34 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Exactly!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxC5QgY4gfU

    se’ agapao Wolfgang

    Timothy

  92. on 12 Jan 2013 at 3:26 pmJas

    Hayal
    Welcome
    You have come a long way and I agree with most of your conclusions but I see the beast as a much older system that has been at odds with the system that YHWH setup for his people. The RCC is just a false prophet along with orthodox christianity and rabbinical judaism .May I add that not being to buy,sell or trade is the effect of a monetary system that doesnt followed a fair balance of trade .

  93. on 12 Jan 2013 at 4:46 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Hayal,

    Welcome as well and I enjoyed your post. I have entertained similar thoughts but am not to the point of accepting such as truth. Perhaps with time as I’ve only been a Christian for 3 years.

    There are many trinitarians that I have met who I greatly respect as Christians and I do believe them to be of the true church. For most people, I think when people they respect as more learned than them spout all the arguments for the trinity and they have never heard the counters, I think it is difficult for them to go against that. For example, I caught one of our church elders in a discussion on it at a retreat. For about an hour and off the top of his head, he defended the trinity against my questions but I was quite a bit more prepared than he. The next day, he told me that regardless of what either one of us knows about it, there have been far more knowledgeable people for hundreds of years who have researched it and the trinity has stood and he is comfortable with that. That is the power of tradition.

    I hope you stick around. Peace to you.

  94. on 12 Jan 2013 at 5:25 pmSarah

    Tim, you’ve described it exactly. The average Christian hasn’t done research into the trinitarian doctrine, instead relying upon a few favorite pastors or apologists to do their thinking for them. Few people really want to rock a 1600 year old boat either 🙂

    And there is most definitely a spiritual element to this deception, as Hayal pointed out. I personally have experienced intense and palpable spiritual opposition from the moment I began to look into the subject a few years ago.

  95. on 12 Jan 2013 at 8:11 pmJohn

    Sarah

    I understand how some use the word, sent or came from God to my the authority by which Jesus is here but Jesus plainly says had personal knowledge and eye witness testimony of life with the Father before He became flesh and dwelt among us.

    John 3:10-13 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, (I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness). If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven).

    John 3:31-32 (He who comes from heaven is greater than all others) he who comes from earth is of the earth, and of the earth are his words: he who comes from heaven is over all. (He gives witness of what he has seen and of what has come to his ears); and no man takes his witness as true.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only he who is from God, (he has seen the Father).

    He longed to be back in the presence of His Father, just like He had before the world was.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

  96. on 12 Jan 2013 at 8:30 pmJohn

    Tim (aka Antioch)

    The Angel of the LORD, in relation to YAHWEH, is similar to Joseph and Pharaoh but I believe it’s more because the Angel of the LORD is more closely related to manifestation rather than agency. The Angel of the LORD is actually identified as the Angel of God’s presence. The Angel of the LORD called for Abraham to kill his only son. He gave the covenant promise to multiply Abraham’s seed. Sacrifice is offered to Him as worship and He accepts it. When they resisted the Angel of the LORD it grieved the Spirit of God which effected God Himself. YAHWEH is one God who reveals and manifests Himself in time and space in such as way that man can be in His presence and not die. It’s sort of like light reflecting…2 Corinthians 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

  97. on 12 Jan 2013 at 8:54 pmJohn

    John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. The Word Becomes Flesh and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Read the above words carefully.

    The word, which is another way of saying the Messenger or the Angel of the LORD. The Angel of the LORD was with God and was God. He came to His own, in the old testament, but they did not receive Him. Listen.

    Isaiah 63:8-10 For He said, “Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.

    Back to John…He came to His own but they did not receive Him. He became flesh and dwelt among them.

    John the Baptist said: “I am ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Make straight the way of the Lord,”’ John 1:23

    Listen to who John the Baptist says he was preparing the way for.

    Isaiah 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    Prior to Him becoming flesh He came to His own but they rejected Him then He became flesh and dwelt among them. This is why when John says Jesus existed before Him he meant it. He did not mean in relation to status of importance. Listen.

    John 1:30 This is the One I told you about: ‘After me comes a man who has surpassed me, because He existed before me.’

  98. on 12 Jan 2013 at 9:05 pmDoubting Thomas

    Welcome Hayal!!!
    I’m always glad to meet a fellow Unitarian, but I agree with Tim (aka Antioch) that most Trinitarians are good people who are just being misled. My best friend is always trying to use the argument that there have been 2,000 years of religious genius’ who have all confirmed the validity of the Trinity. And how dare we contradict the wisdom of these religious genius’.

    I personally find that to be a rather weak argument. Of course the majority of religious experts are going to agree with the religious experts that went before them. It is most unusual for someone who is considered to be an expert, to disagree with his fellow (and historic) experts on any subject. At least that’s the way I see it anywaze… 🙂

  99. on 12 Jan 2013 at 9:52 pmSarah

    The word, which is another way of saying the Messenger or the Angel of the LORD. The Angel of the LORD was with God and was God. He came to His own, in the old testament, but they did not receive Him. Listen.

    The Angel of The Lord was God? A second God, who is an angel and yet God himself? With his own independent center of consciousness? Are you saying there are two YHWHs? This concept of a two-in-one God you are describing is just as foreign to Hebrew thought as a three-in-one God. As I’ve said before, it’s rooted in Plato’s pagan doctrine of human pre-existence. By contrast, scripture tells us that the first Adam was brought into existence by God his Father, and thus when Paul calls Jesus the last Adam, we have the ontological template for the only other man in history to be directly fathered by God.

  100. on 12 Jan 2013 at 10:47 pmJohn

    Sarah

    “The Angel of The Lord was God?”

    Your argument is with the Bible, not me.

    Exodus 3:1-8 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. And the Lord said: “I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites.

  101. on 13 Jan 2013 at 8:01 amJohn

    Did the man, Jesus, preexist? No He did not!

    Jesus is the beginning of God’s new creation. His physical life began at His physical birth but He, the Angel of the LORD who is metaphorically called the word, had a preexistence before He became flesh and dwelt among us.

    We see in John 1:1-14 how in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God. We see how, prior to becoming flesh, He came to His own but they rejected Him. It goes on to say that He who came to His own became flesh as the man Jesus and dwelt among us. John the Baptist speaks of Him as existing before John the Baptist.

    Listen to the Angel of the LORD speak of How God prepared this body or temple for Him.

    Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.

    Therefore when He, the Angel of the LORD, came into the world.

    The flesh and blood body of the man Jesus is called, that holy thing, is the Son of God and the promised seed of David.

    Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    The flesh and blood man called Jesus is the seed of David, which came be traced all the way back to Adam but He who took on flesh and blood is the Bright and Morning Star who existed with the Father before the world began.

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the Bright and Morning Star.

    The Bright and Morning Star is the Angel of the LORD. He is the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us.

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    He has personally seen the Father and has given eye witness testimony to the fact.

    John 3:10-13 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, (I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness). If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven).

    John 3:31-32 (He who comes from heaven is greater than all others) he who comes from earth is of the earth, and of the earth are his words: he who comes from heaven is over all. (He gives witness of what he has seen and of what has come to his ears); and no man takes his witness as true.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only he who is from God, (he has seen the Father).

    He expresses His desire to be back in the physical and literal presence of His Father just like it was before the world began.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    John 16:28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

    As a new creation, Jesus had to grow and learn what it’s like to live as a human under the Law.

    Hebrews 2:16-18 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

    He gave up some much when He left His Father’s side to become our High Priest.

    2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

    Let us not focus only on the seed of David but let us also see and understand the Bright and Morning Star who gave up so much for us because He, just like His Father, loves us.

    John 16:27 For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

  102. on 13 Jan 2013 at 9:07 amRay

    John is certainly correct in that he who became known as Jesus, the Son of God, did in fact exist with the Father from the beginning, before the world was made.

    When I thought of Jesus coming out from God (John 16:27), I began to perceive that as a “being born of the Spirit”.

    Only those who are born of the Spirit will be able to see God. They will be the ones that are pure in heart. (Matt 5:8)

    We who are born of the Spirit will see the Father in heaven.

  103. on 13 Jan 2013 at 9:23 amJohn

    Welcome Ray,

    You are correct in that prior to the physical birth of Jesus He came out from God in eternity past, before the world began. He was God’s Messenger and was, by nature, God. He became flesh through a miraculas birth just over 2000 years ago. Those who have been born of God through Jesus the Chirst will enter the kingom of God, which will be on an earth made new.

  104. on 13 Jan 2013 at 9:25 amRay

    Religion wants to put blinders on people as a man might do to a horse to get him to go only the way he wants him to go, that he might be controlled.

  105. on 13 Jan 2013 at 10:09 amSarah

    John,

    My argument is with the interpretation of the Bible you are asserting.

    Claim #1: Jesus is the Angel of The Lord.

    Claim #2: The Angel of The Lord is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    To arrive at this interpretation, you simply ignore verses that refute both claims.

    (Act 3:13) The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.

    (Act 7:30) “Now when forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight, and as he drew near to look, there came the voice of the Lord: ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’ And Moses trembled and did not dare to look.

    Acts 3:13 plainly distinguishes the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob from Jesus his servant. And in Acts 7:30, Stephen interpreted the being in the bush to be an angel. Stephen did not say this was God, nor did Stephen say this was Jesus. The Hebraic principle of agency, previously mentioned in this thread, provides the explanation. The angel in the bush exactly that: a spirit being who represented God to Moses. To suggest otherwise is to contravene the clear testimony of scripture.

  106. on 13 Jan 2013 at 10:10 amtimothy

    JAS,

    Good morning and GOD bless you.

    You write:
    “When I thought of Jesus coming out from God (John 16:27), I began to perceive that as a “being born of the Spirit”.”

    **
    I Corinthians 15: (kjv)
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and
    become the first fruits of them that slept.

    21 For since by man came death, by man came
    also the resurrection of the dead.

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall
    all be made alive.

    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the
    first fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at
    his coming.

    The term “first fruits” is similar to “firstborn” in that it
    implies two things: (1) he was the first to be resurrected
    and (2) others will follow. When the others will follow is
    clearly stated as “afterward they that are Christ’s at his
    coming.” When he comes back, we too will be given a new
    life just like his. At that time, we will be born a second time.

    When Jesus was put into the sepulcher, his lifeless
    body was so marred and disfigured Isaiah said that it was
    beyond human semblance. When he got up, he had a
    completely new body. We are promised a similar
    transformation.

    Philippians 3:20 and 21
    20 For our conversation is in heaven; from
    whence also we look for the Saviour, the
    Lord Jesus Christ:

    21Who shall change our vile body, that it may
    be fashioned like unto his glorious body,
    according to the working whereby he is able
    even to subdue all things unto himself.**

    You also have written:
    “We who are born of the Spirit will see the Father in heaven.”

    Romans 8: (kjv)
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    This is the proof verse…proof that one is born of the spirit. Holy spirit gives our parakletos words and we utter these words by speaking in tongues.

    Acts 2: (kjv)
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Ephesians 1: (kjv)
    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    14 Which is the earnest(token) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Our full salvation awaits the return of Jesus Christ and our Resurrection/change into a new body. We will be the fruits following “Jesus the first fruits from the dead”.

    We also preexisted, within GODs plan, at the time “GOD predestinathed” our needed salvation. GOD has in his mind and heart a plan for all he does for his own good pleasure and will. We and Jesus are GODs loving good pleasure.

    Ephesians 1: (kjv)
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,….

    All of this will be done here on Earth…not in heaven.

    se’ agapao

    Timothy

  107. on 13 Jan 2013 at 10:16 amtimothy

    RAY,

    Sorry my post was meant for you and not Jas.

    Jas GOD bless you too.

    Timothy

  108. on 13 Jan 2013 at 11:34 amJohn

    Sarah

    Both the Angel of the and Jesus are Messengers and servants of YAHWEH.

  109. on 13 Jan 2013 at 11:35 amJohn

    Sarah…sorry for the type O’s I’m typing from my phone.

  110. on 13 Jan 2013 at 11:39 amJohn

    When Jesus said, “I came out from God” He had not yet died nor resurrected yet.

  111. on 13 Jan 2013 at 1:34 pmSarah

    John,

    Both the Angel of the and Jesus are Messengers and servants of YAHWEH.

    Couldn’t agree more! I just believe that “both” really means both – two beings who are distinct from each other.

  112. on 13 Jan 2013 at 1:39 pmJohn

    Sarah

    One, who was in the presence of the Father before the world began, became flesh dwelt among us.

  113. on 13 Jan 2013 at 1:43 pmSarah

    John,

    When Jesus said, “I came out from God” He had not yet died nor resurrected yet.

    Why couldn’t he be referring to his Holy Spirit conception in Mary’s womb?

  114. on 13 Jan 2013 at 1:59 pmJohn

    How about this shocker…Sunday is not the Lord’s day.

    From Genesis to Revelation Saturday, the seventh day of the week is, and always has been, the Lord’s day.

    Jesus so clearly and plainly says He is Lord of the Sabbath, which is not Sunday. Those who set aside Sunday are not following Jesus or the Apostles, but rather, they are following the traditions and commandments of man. Because of this God says they worship Him in vain. If you doubt Saturday is the seventh day, look in your dictionary.

    The seventh day was created a special and blessed day as part of creation itself. This, along with marriage, was created before sin was in the world and are part of creation itself. Satan hates both of them and is actively distorting both.

  115. on 13 Jan 2013 at 3:12 pmJas

    John
    In early christianity the designation Lord’s Day was the day of Jesus’ resurrection not a day of the week but was a day in the Hebrew month,Nisan 17.For many centuries the church argued whether to honor Jesus on Nisan 14 when he became our passover or to honor him on the resurrection day. There is no telling just who made this a weekly event but certainly was done to bring pagans into the church’s pocketbooks . Btw sunday was called the Lord’s Day long before Jesus . There is not a single refence in the bible to what day of week Jesus was raised but is references to which week in the count of 7 .As far as the Day of hebrew month we know Jesus died Nisan 14 and was raised the 3rd day on Nisan 17. In the first century it took a literal 3 days till you were proven to be dead and could not be buried till after that so as proof Jesus died he had to be dead 3 full days

  116. on 13 Jan 2013 at 3:53 pmDoubting Thomas

    Everyone…
    Some of you will remember a former moderator of Kingdom Ready by the name of Mark Clarke. He is in desperate need of our prayers. He and his wife Melodie have recently been evicted from their apartment and they are now living in a tent city. I have been praying for them, and I was hoping that others here would also say a prayer for them. Thanks…

  117. on 13 Jan 2013 at 4:09 pmJohn

    Jas

    Not one verse that says Sunday is the Lord’s day nor is there one verse that says Sunday is now observed in light of Jesus’ resurrection. Sunday observance is a distortion of truth. Jesus kept Saturday, Paul kept Saturday and early church kept Saturday. As a natter of fact, a law was enacted to force Sunday worship in 364AD. This tells us that God’s people were still obeying God in 364AD.

  118. on 13 Jan 2013 at 4:20 pmJas

    John
    I agree

  119. on 13 Jan 2013 at 4:32 pmSarah

    Sorry to hear the news, DT. I’m praying.

  120. on 13 Jan 2013 at 4:38 pmDoubting Thomas

    Thanks Sarah… 🙂

    John and Jas I also agree. I had thought I was one of the only Sabbath keepers here on K.R. It is nice to know that I’m alone…

  121. on 13 Jan 2013 at 4:53 pmJohn

    Doubting Thomas

    That’s great news to hear of your faithfulness to the truth. If people took the time to test what they believe regarding Sunday observance they would be shocked. Many people were put to death for keeping the Sabbath during the dark ages. If you kill enough Sabbath keepers there will be no one left to resist you. This is how Sunday keeping came to be so popular, it wasn’t through Bible study.

  122. on 13 Jan 2013 at 5:57 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    I like your post in # 15 and am puzzling your # 118. This is sure to be controversial in our country, USA, as the president is aledged to have added Muslim law to the mix.

    The birth of Christ was 11 September 3 BC. One reckoning is by the information here:(also google)

    Revelation 12:
    (kjv)
    1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

    (NASB)
    1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

    2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

    This was worked out by using tables of Astrology and the science of Astronomy.

    Point being that calender years have been set by the birth of Christ as:

    BC=before Christ
    AD=ano Domini

    Now the little darlings have changed these into:

    BCE= before common era
    CE=common era

    I concider it a Liberal effort to delete Jesus Christ just as the current president and his gang have been doing in our country.

    Having lived for 71 years with our worldly 7 day week beginning on
    Monday, the near past having stores closed on Sunday, no liquor sold on Sunday, and official dealings limited to reqular work day and so on. And a child goes to Sunday School on Sunday and school on M–F. Christian adults go to church on Sunday.

    We are a Judo Christian nation and Hebrew peoples practice their Saturday Sabath and go to Temple. But the world does not now revolve around Saturday as being the King Pin day of the week.

    By the way, Jas, I am writing this, not questioning what you already know, but to bring it all to our(readers) minds.

    The first command GOD made to humankind was to “be fruitfull and multiply and refill(replenish) the Earth.

    Next GOD rested on the 7th day.(I was taught that GOD actually made the day of rest for the Mankind as he does not ever need to take a break)

    Noahide Law= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws

    (Doubting Thomas introduced this interesting information to me and one can easyly see that Abraham had GODs law befor the law of moses and Melchizedek was his High Priest and accepted his Tithe)

    My church has set aside Sunday for our day of worship and praise as a group. There is a physical church building in Latham New York where the surrounding aera believers assemble every Sunday for praise and teaching. I live in central Florida and attend via ‘live feed’ internet. This KR bloug is availed by, moderated by and maintained by the lhim.

    This subject of the Sabath needs to be settled. But How?

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  123. on 13 Jan 2013 at 6:13 pmJohn

    Timothy

    There is not need to settle the Sabbath, it’s the seventh day. It was blessed and called at its creation. We still have a seven day week, just as God crested it. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The papacy changed the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day with not authority from the Bible. If you read your Bible you will have no doubt as to which day Jesus kept, Paul kept and the early church kept. Satan is working hard to do away with anything that represents God in God’s creation. The Sabbath and marriage are two such things.

  124. on 13 Jan 2013 at 6:17 pmDoubting Thomas

    Hi Timothy,
    I have no problem with Sunday keepers. Y’shua said, “the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath”, and he also said, “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath”. So the way I see it as long as you keep one day a week holy and dedicated to growing closer to our Father in heaven. Then you are honoring the spirit of the 4th. Commandment. Not everyone is able to keep the Sabbath on Saturday (policemen and firemen for instance), but as long as they set one day a week aside to honor and grow close to our Father. Then I think that God will be happy… 😉

  125. on 13 Jan 2013 at 6:41 pmJas

    Timothy
    I find no requirements for Grace but belief that the first resurrection is by the Words of the Covenants and the signs(marks) given to identify True Israel.
    As far as the Noahide law being the only requirement for a gentile I find no support .First thing is all are from Mosaic law and second the gentiles were be taught the Words of the Covenants every Sabbath with the choice of entering the Covenants or just to accept Grace.The Sabbath and other signs are a choice as is entering into covenant.
    The way to settle the need is to understand the difference between entering a covenant and receiving a gift

  126. on 13 Jan 2013 at 10:02 pmJohn

    Jas

    Jesus taught us how to keep the Sabbath according to the spirit of the Law and not once did He say just keep any day out of seven. God blessed the seventh day and called it holy He even protected it with the fourth commandment. If any boss forces a child of God to work on the Sabbath he will have to give an account to God. This is not so with any other day of the week.

  127. on 13 Jan 2013 at 10:02 pmtimothy

    To all readers,

    God spoke to Noah–no angle mentioned:

    Genesis 6: (kjv)
    13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

    Genesis 7:
    1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

    First time that years, month and days together, recorded in GODs word:

    Genesis 7:
    11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

    Genesis 8:
    6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:

    13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

    GOD speaks again to Noah and again no angle mentioned:

    Genesis 8:
    15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,

    16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

    GOD said in his heart (no angle envolved either):

    21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for *the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth*; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

    **Wolfgang: GOD said to himself:
    “the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth”,
    which is a clew to whether or not man is born with an evil heart or sin nature. How old does one have to be to be a youth. I am of the humble opinion it begins at birth. All humans have an evil sin nature, which at least is surpressed as *Sherl* has attested, and by bringing ones children up as was Soloman by his mother teaching him the proverbs.

    And the father withholds not the rod from the son he loveth or as in your Country, Wolfgang, the mother uses here largest kitchen wooden spoon to disipline her children. Can you remember? **

    22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

    GOD speaks to Noah and his sons (no angle envolved):

    Genesis 9:1
    1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

    GOD gives the same first commandment again, to the now remaining mankind, Noah and his three sons. Some how, I am under the opinion that since by marriage, man and woman become one flesh, the wives are included with the blessing and commandment.

    4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

    6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

    God speaks to Noah again without angles being envolved:

    8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,

    17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.(this is the token of the rainbow)

    To John, You wrote in # 123:

    “There is not need to settle the Sabbath, it’s the seventh day”

    Yes , in YOUR minds eye, you do not need to settle the sabbath. There are other basics too, that you have not settled because of wrong teaching or lack of right teaching.

    Listen to this interview of A Buzzard by our KR modirator about the sabath and hear an eccentric view of keeping the Sabath holy, plus a means to correct all your wrong teaching and private interpretation.

    This intervier and many others on important topics may be accessed by clicking *Truth Matters* on right side of KR page under POD CAST.

    This is for everyone and is from KR to you:

    http://www.christianmonotheism.com/truthmatters/podcast%2028%20–%20Anthony%20Buzzard%20–%20Law.mp3

    Jesus Christ has given us rest by all his death and resurrection once and for all accomplished as our High Priest and King(after the order of Melchizadek)

    We are to keep this new covenet sabath rest 24/7!

    1 Corinthians 14: (kjv)
    21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

    Isaiah 28: (kjv)
    11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

    To the individual, personally & privatly, speaking in tongues in their private prayer life gives rest to the soul and builds up the inner man spiritually.

    Ephesians 3: (kjv)
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;….

    John4: (kjv)
    23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    agapao se’,

    Timothy

  128. on 13 Jan 2013 at 10:40 pmJohn

    Tim

    Worship God in spirit AND in TRUTH. Jesus taught many times on how to keep the Sabbath in light situations that come up on the Sabbath. Never, not even once, did He teach concerning Sunday or any other day. It’s the carnal man that resists the Law of God. The Sabbath is a blessed day, why think of it as a cursed day? God spoke of a time when man would call good evil and evil good.

  129. on 13 Jan 2013 at 11:29 pmJas

    John
    I dont believe that any day can be the Sabbath,only the seventh day which has been preserved throughout is the one of the Covenants

  130. on 14 Jan 2013 at 12:22 amJohn

    Jas

    The seventh day Sabbath is a literal day, not a spiritual day. I agree we have a rest in Jesus from the struggle of sin but the rest He gives us is the Greek word, anapauo but the seventh day Sabbath is the Greek word, sabbatismos which refers to the literal seventh day.

    Here are some translations of Hebrews 4:9.

    Hebrews 4:9 (DRA) There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.

    Hebrews 4:9 [BBE]) So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.

    Hebrews 4:9 [SLT]) Therefore a celebration of a sabbath remains to the people of God.

    Remember, the fourth commandment protects the seventh day for everyone, even the working animals. Animals don’t need the rest that Jesus gives because the He gives us has to do with a rest from our struggle with sin.

    The awesomeness of the new covenant is that God will have a people He can call His own. They will be a holy nation and a royal priesthood. Why is this? Because God will put His Spirit in them and empower them, through love, to keep His commandment, including the fourth commandment.

    Ezekiel 36:26-28 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

    Jeremiah 31:31-33 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    Hebrews 10:16-17 “This is the new covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

    Satan has twisted God’s people into believing the Law is done away with. He has people thinking the Law is bad when God says the Law is holy, just and good.

    The literal seventh day is a blessed day. The word blessed means joyous, happy, a favor or gift bestowed by God. Why would God, Jesus or the cross do away with something that is good, joyous and testifies of God and His creation?

  131. on 14 Jan 2013 at 6:53 amJohn

    ————————————-WARNING————————————-
    NOT FOR THE WEAK

    Daniel 7:24-25 The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; he shall be different from the first ones, and shall subdue three kings. He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time.

    Who is this man who speaks pompous words against the Most High God. Who intends to change God’s Law and times and who persecutes the saints of the Most High, those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus?

    Official Statement of the Catholic Church

    “The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” “The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ.” Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris’ Ecclesiastical Dictionary.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    Who is this man of sin who sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God?

    Official Statements of the Catholic Church

    “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty” …Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,

    ​”The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.” Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”.

    .-Pope Nicholas I declared that “the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man.” – Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.

    “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man (…) he is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power.” -Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, ‘Papa II’, pp.25-29

    Times of God changed by the papacy.

    Official Statements of the Catholic Church

    Question – Which is the Sabbath day?
    Answer – Saturday is the Sabbath day.
    Question – Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
    Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd ed.

    “Sunday is our MARK or authority. . .the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact” Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

    Friday crucifixion, Jesus’ second coming before the revealing of Antichrist, Jesus resurrected on Easter Sunday, Jesus’ birth on December 25th, Sunday observance as the Lord’s day and much more. The papacy also removed the second commandment from the Ten Commandments and then made two commandments out of the tenth so there would still be ten.

    Did the papacy persecute the saints of the Most High God?

    During the dark ages the papacy was responsible for the torture and murder of over 1000 million God fearing people for the sake of Catholic unity in the teachings of the papacy.

    ​”The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” – Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142.

    “The Bible says, Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic church says, No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep the first day of the week. And lo, the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic church!” Father Enright, C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas City, History of the Sabbath, p. 802

    “He is a heretic who does not believe what the Roman Hierarchy teaches. –A heretic merits the pains of fire. –By the Gospel, the canons, civil law, and custom, heretics must be burned.”–148, 169

    IF WE BELIEVE RELIGION IS TRUE, WE SHOULD BE REINTRODUCING A CRIMINAL PENALTY FOR THOSE WHO FAIL TO ATTEND CHURCH ON SUNDAY -Daily Independent 4-11-98 -Sara Maitland “On the issues of belief”

    Do you see why Jesus said our worship is in vain when we teach the commandments of man?

    Mark 7:6-7 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

    Matthew 15:8-10 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

    Who are you worshiping with your belief system?

    Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

  132. on 14 Jan 2013 at 7:12 amtimothy

    FYI

    QUOTE:

    It is argued that the Sabbath
    day was instituted at creation as a weekly rest for all
    mankind from Adam onwards.

    ……..overlooks the following biblical facts:

    1. Exodus 16:23: The Sabbath day is revealed to Israel
    by God. The Lord says, “Tomorrow is a Sabbath
    observance, a holy Sabbath to the Lord.”
    There is no hint
    here that the seventh-day rest had been in force since
    creation. God did not say: “Tomorrow is the [well-known]
    Sabbath given to all nations from creation.”
    Indeed Moses adds:
    “See, the Lord has given you [Israel] the Sabbath;
    therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth
    day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of
    his place on the seventh day” (Ex. 16:29).
    If God gave the
    Sabbath to Israel in Exodus 16, was He removing it from
    mankind in general? It is most strange that if Sabbathkeeping was revealed as divine law from creation for every
    nation God would now specify Israel as the nation obliged
    to keep the Sabbath.

    2. Nehemiah 9:13, 14:
    The origin of weekly Sabbath observance is not at creation, but at Sinai:

    “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from
    heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws,
    good statutes and commandments. So You made known to
    them Your holy Sabbath, and laid down for them
    commandments, statutes and law, through Your servant
    Moses.”

    3. Nehemiah 10:29-33:
    The weekly Sabbath is part of God’s law given through Moses and thus part of the whole system of Sabbatical observances revealed at Sinai:

    “[The people] are taking on themselves a curse and an
    oath to walk in God’s law, which was given through
    Moses, God’s servant, and to keep and to observe all the 14 The Law, the Sabbath and New Covenant Christianity
    commandments of God our Lord, and His ordinances and
    His statutes…As for the peoples of the land who bring
    wares or any grain on the Sabbath day to sell, we will not
    buy from them on the Sabbath or a holy day; and we will
    forego the crops the seventh year…We also placed
    ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of
    a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the
    showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the
    continual burnt offering, the Sabbaths, the new moon, for
    the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin
    offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of
    the house of our God.”
    Notice that Israel was bound to a whole system of
    Sabbaths and holy days.

    4. The purpose of the Sabbath, though it reflects God’s
    rest at creation (Ex. 20:11), is specifically to commemorate
    the Exodus of the nation of Israel from Egypt. That is why
    the fourth commandment was given: “You shall remember
    that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord
    your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and
    by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God
    commanded you [Israel, not mankind from creation] to
    observe the Sabbath day” (Deut. 5:15).

    END QUOTE

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  133. on 14 Jan 2013 at 9:27 amJohn

    Timothy

    You, as well as many, are missing the whole story of redemption and how God is calling a people out of the world to make His own. This is the whole reason for giving Israel the oracles of God.

    Romans 3:1-3 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

    Do we do away with the oracles of God or do we teach them?

    1 Peter 4:11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

    God taught Israel His ways through the oracles so they could be a light to the nations.

    Isaiah 42:6 “I, the Lord, was right to call you. I will hold your hand and protect you. You will be the sign of my agreement with the people. You will be a light for the other nations.

    Now lets begin to see the truth about the Sabbath.

    First of all, do the words holy, blessed and sanctified mean anything to you. Do they have any value to God? Well, these are the words God used to describe the seventh day of creation.

    The words, holy and sanctified mean to set apart for God. God did not set apart or institute the Sabbath at Sinai through the fourth commandment, He’s calling His creation back to it with the words, REMEMBER.

    Keep in mind how the Ten Commandments were given because of transgression. In other words, people were violating these principles prior to the Law being written in stone. You say the Sabbath was not enforced prior to Sinai so it wasn’t to be followed prior to Sinai? Well, you could say the same about marriage. It was instituted as part of creation but was it enforced prior to Sinai? Was Cain guilty of murder prior to Sinai? Did Eve disobey her Father prior to Sinai? Has any committed the sin of lying or coveting prior to Sinai?

    You say the Sabbath was given to Israel because of their release from Egypt? This is true but why?

    You have to keep in mind how God’s people were in bondage in Egypt for hundreds or years so they pick up a lot of the pagan beliefs and practices, as a result, they lost much of what they knew of their God. Some even worshiped the Egyptian gods.

    When the people of God were in bondage in slavery they wanted time off from work to worship God but Pharaoh refused and even punished them for wanting to take time off from work to worship God. This is why, after their release from slavery, God wanted them to be thankful for the Sabbath because it’s protected time for worship. The whole reason from Moses asking to let God’s people go was so they could worship God. Listen.

    Exodus 5:1-10 Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.’” And Pharaoh said, “Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go.” So they said, “The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go three days’ journey into the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword.” Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to your labor.” And Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land are many now, and you make them rest from their labor!” So the same day Pharaoh commanded the taskmasters of the people and their officers, saying, “You shall no longer give the people straw to make brick as before. Let them go and gather straw for themselves. And you shall lay on them the quota of bricks which they made before. You shall not reduce it. For they are idle; therefore they cry out, saying, ‘Let us go and sacrifice to our God.’ Let more work be laid on the men, that they may labor in it, and let them not regard false words.”

    After all this God says this…

    Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

    The Sabbath was created as part of creation itself and is special time and even protected time for all who desire to part of God’s family. God’s house is a house for all nations.

    Isaiah 56:5-7 Even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. “Also the sons of the foreigner/Gentile who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
    Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant—Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

    Mark 11:17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’ ”

  134. on 14 Jan 2013 at 10:53 amJas

    Timothy
    Abraham followed commandments,ordinances and statues which the specifics were not revealed. One of those was circumcision which the 13 tribes had to be circumcised before crossing the Jordan because the generation that died in the wildernesses had forgotten to circumcise their children.It was given as a requirement of the Mosaic covenant but we know it did not start there. The Sabbath was also given prior to Sinai in Ex. 16:29 so Nehemiah 9:13, 14 is probably a bad translation.Many ancient languages that came out of Babel with the name of the seventh day as a form of the word Sabbath with others days only described by number so even before Abraham the Nations knew of it by name.But all this is irrelevant because the Sabbath was given as a sign of a Covenant people with a few others as a perpetual sign of the children of God but in no way is it a requirement for receiving Grace.

    John please read more carefully because you have mis stated my position twice now

  135. on 14 Jan 2013 at 11:13 amJohn

    Jas

    I’m a little slow at times so could you refresh my memory? As a child of God under grace are we still obligated to obey the Ten Commandments such as honoring parents, not stealing, respecting God’s name, celebrating the weekly Sabbath and so on?

  136. on 14 Jan 2013 at 11:36 amJas

    John
    Grace is a gift so no requirements are attached . There is two future resurrections ,one of requirements and a reward and one of redemption which is the gift of redemption for certain eternal death from not being able to be in the presence of God without a mediator because Adam broke fellowship with God for mankind. Even though we have received Grace we all still must be judged worthy of receiving eternal life and this judgement will be only on how we have treated our fellow humans and are acceptance to the truth that will be revealed. But the most important is accepting the Lamb of God as our only way to eternal life as our mediator.
    All the Words of the Covenants were very necessary for Jesus to be born under the law to be perfect in the law so the promises made that allowed this must be kept and the reward must still be offered to anyone would also takes hold of the Covenants as can be applied at that time

  137. on 14 Jan 2013 at 12:27 pmJas

    116 Doubting Thomas
    Everyone…
    Some of you will remember a former moderator of Kingdom Ready by the name of Mark Clarke. He is in desperate need of our prayers. He and his wife Melodie have recently been evicted from their apartment and they are now living in a tent city. I have been praying for them, and I was hoping that others here would also say a prayer for them. Thanks…

    Doubting Thomas
    From what i understand there are several members in this group.
    Why is one of there brethren living on the street

  138. on 14 Jan 2013 at 1:06 pmJohn

    Jas

    I think understand what you’re saying and I believe the same way.

    The commandments of God can be obeyed one of two ways. One way is to achieve a standard of righteousness acceptable to God (Old Covenant) and the other way is to express love for God and neighbor (New Covenant). God tells us that, where sin abounds ie breaking God’s Law, grace much more abounds. What God is saying here is that He is more concerned with our relationship with Him than He is of our short falls and weaknesses. Grace is the means by which we can keep in fellowship with God in spite of our bad choices. The power of grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, not live in it. If you truly love God it will be hard not to keep the commandments, including the fourth commandment. The reason for this is because the Ten Commandments define godly love at its basic level. The first four teach us how to love God and the last six teach us how to love others. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in God’s Law. If you take away God’s Law lawlessness will abound causing the love of many to grow cold. This is what you see in the world today.

  139. on 14 Jan 2013 at 1:19 pmJas

    John
    You are close enough.
    Paul taught both Grace and Reward but some have mixed them causing some to believe there are requirements for Grace and some to believe there is no requirements for the reward.
    It is time we rightly divide them

  140. on 14 Jan 2013 at 1:52 pmDoubting Thomas

    Jas,
    You asked, “From what i understand there are several members in this group.
    Why is one of there brethren living on the street.”

    About 2 1/2 years ago Mark Clarke lost his job. About 2 years ago he had to give up his internet and as a result he stopped being a moderator (and contributer) to this site. This site has a constant changeover over of members who participate and as a result very few of our current members actually remember Mark. I believe that only Wolfgang and myself were members when he was a moderator. From what I understand there have been some former members (and others) that have been helping him financially. I myself am on a disability and am in no position to help him financially.

    However I can offer him prayers of support. I was just asking that our fellow members (even if they don’t remember him) also pray for him as well…

  141. on 14 Jan 2013 at 2:05 pmJas

    Doubting Thomas
    From what i understand this blog is a member of LHIM network which boast many members. When I click on this network I see a donate button. I know not everyone can help with money but if there is a 100 members who can spare $20 then this helping hand can carry him tell he can recover from a burden that 90 % of us are only 90 days away from ourself if we were dealt this hand

  142. on 14 Jan 2013 at 2:25 pmJas

    $20 bucks a month can be recovered by turning our thermostat down a few degrees which depending on where this man is could be a 50 degree difference between him and us

  143. on 14 Jan 2013 at 2:34 pmJohn

    2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

    Jesus was born in a manger. He had no place to lay His head. Jesus was never a rich man on earth yet the Bible says He was rich, yet for our sakes He became poor. Prior to becoming flesh and dwelling among us Jesus was rich with the bounty of all that heaven could offer. He had a most awesome glory with the Father before the world was yet He gave it all up for us.

    He saw the Father and lived with Him in glory. He came to testify of the Father’s glory and love.

    John 3:10-13 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, (I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness). If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven).

    John 3:31-32 (He who comes from heaven is greater than all others) he who comes from earth is of the earth, and of the earth are his words: he who comes from heaven is over all. (He gives witness of what he has seen and of what has come to his ears); and no man takes his witness as true.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only he who is from God, (he has seen the Father).

    To deny these truths is to deny the very ministry of Jesus Himself.

  144. on 14 Jan 2013 at 3:44 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    I’d be willing to contribute for Mark – can Sean or one of the other admins provide some guidance? Who do we send it to? Do they have family? Where are they located? Perhaps there are some other resources that could be tapped into.

    This is somewhat of an on-line church for me so despite that there is no shortage of need out there, it does strike me harder when someone associated with this blog is in need and I do feel an extra tug to do something.

  145. on 14 Jan 2013 at 4:06 pmtimothy

    Tim (aka Antioch)

    Ditto for me.

    Philippians 2:
    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    I have emailed him….DT can give you the email address too.

    Timothy

  146. on 14 Jan 2013 at 4:18 pmJohn

    My question would be, why 2 1/2 years without a job? I do a lot work with the homeless, people who have addictions and people coming out of prison. Some people are homeless due to circumstances outside of their control while others are willfully homeless through a choice not to be burdened with having the daily responsibility of having to show up to a job.

    2 Thessalonians 3:10-11 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies.

    I like to know more of why people are in the situation they’re in from reputable people who personally know them and their situation.

    The principles found in the good Samaritan story is what I live by when reaching out to those in need.

  147. on 14 Jan 2013 at 4:28 pmJas

    John
    You are not obligated to help unless you chose to.
    I absolutely know nothing about him other than reading several post but in these post I dont see a man who was lazy so his reasons are irrelevant to me. If we cant help someone we know than how can we justify helping strangers . evidently he was very well respected here which tells me enough.

  148. on 14 Jan 2013 at 4:51 pmtimothy

    I perceive that you do not take advantage of any teaching from the links I have posted here.

    Here is another which should give you a chance to “check”, meaning to stop, some observable rejection of Jesus’ commandments to his church.

    http://lhim.org/sunday/teaching_notes.php?id=349&mode=audio&page=2&find_me=

    Timothy

  149. on 14 Jan 2013 at 5:09 pmJohn

    Jas

    Your question, “Why is this brethren in the street?” is a good question. The answer to the why will determine the best way to help if help should be given at all. I know it sounds cold without having all the details but I’ve been doing street level ministry for years now and I, through much trial and error, learned to be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove.

  150. on 14 Jan 2013 at 5:16 pmJas

    John
    My question should be taken as why is he still there.
    The reality is everyone is known by someone and if we take care of our own every stranger has some group.
    It hasnt been that long ago when this was the norm

  151. on 14 Jan 2013 at 8:15 pmSheryl

    I don’t have much but I’d like to help too. I can certainly spare $20 at this time…next week might be a different story … 😉

    Something has been weighing on me…I work part time but commute about 45 min. When I get off the interstate there are always 1-4 panhandlers with cardboard signs asking for “any kind of help.” I always pray for them because I don’t know if they are there out of need or greed (a recent statistic claims that these people can make $30K a year doing this…that’s more than I make working three jobs!)

    So how can I know if I’m enabling the beggars, or really offering them some help? I’ve been stopping at this intersection nearly a year now, and the faces are pretty much the same.

    When should our prayers turn to action?

  152. on 14 Jan 2013 at 8:28 pmJas

    Sheryl
    Charity begins at home where we know the people.
    Yes many people will use you but a little common sense like you are using will go a long way.
    We must lead by example in showing people that if everyone takes care of their own then there in no excuse for helping because we know the whole circumstances .
    State run welfare is really very recent before that people had less excuses

  153. on 14 Jan 2013 at 8:34 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    What you can do is research the area churches and find out what they are doing to help the needy and give through them. You might even find a ministry you could serve through.

  154. on 14 Jan 2013 at 8:38 pmSheryl

    John, I’m responding to something you posted earlier, before the Sabbath discussion.

    I believe your outlook on who Jesus is might be different if you would consider that perhaps “the word” is not necessarily referring to Jesus. I was praying about it just this morning.

    In the beginning … that would be Genesis, right? God used his word or breath or utterance to create what we know around us. Jump ahead to John’s gospel… in the beginning was the word (keep in mind that when the bible was written “word” was not capitalized because all the words were in capital letters.) So connect that with Genesis … in the beginning was God’s word…his breath, his utterance, his creative power that only the one true God possesses. It defines who God is…God’s word, his utterance, IS God.

    So now if John’s “word” is not necessarily Jesus, but God’s creative utterance … is it possible to consider that when God created everything he, who is timeless, knew at once the entire history and future of mankind? God knew we would need a perfect sinless man who would be one of us who we could relate to, to be the only sacrifice to provide redemption. This was all planned out from the beginning of creation…it just needed the actual man to make it come to fruition…and that man, Jesus, was born and became God’s word made flesh. God’s idea taken form.

    Anyway, that makes all the rest of the bible come together for me. Especially after reading Hebrews which makes it crystal clear to me that we are being taught that Jesus is not an angel. In fact, as I was reading it the thought occurred to me that this was written perhaps to quell some false doctrine going around at the time. But that’s just my own conjecture.

  155. on 14 Jan 2013 at 9:23 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    I appreciate your heart felt concern for my understanding of Scripture. Before I knew any better I was a trinitarian but then I started studying the Scriptures and came to the Unitarian belief and rejected the literal preexistence of Jesus but there were these verses that would hit me in the face that screamed preexistence that I could not get around. I couldn’t go back to the trinitarian belief because I knew that was obviously wrong so with more study I have come to see how God manifests Himself in time and space. The Angel of the LORD is God manifesting Himself in time through His Spirit without leaving eternity. He came to His own but they rejected Him. He became flesh and dwelt among us and then returned back to the Father’s presence just like it was before the world began.

  156. on 14 Jan 2013 at 10:16 pmSarah

    Sheryl,

    In response to your question about when to help someone vs when to pray, I have been approached by strangers for help on many occasions. Sometimes I’ve given them money even as I felt uneasy about their motives. Other times I passed by people holding up cardboard signs about being out of work, and then felt guilty for doing so. It’s so hard to know whether to believe someone in our day and age. But I’ve often thought that I need to be better prepared by keeping things like gas cards or restaurant gift cards on hand. I guess in the end we can’t always know for sure whether a plea for help is legit, but can only act as we are led in each situation and trust the outcome to the Lord.

    John,

    I don’t think I said so earlier, but welcome to our blog here at KR. I’m still a little foggy on your beliefs about the nature of God. Would it be fair to say that you believe God is one being with two centers of consciousness, and that one of these two centers of consciousness is the Angel of The Lord, whom you believe to be Jesus Christ?

  157. on 14 Jan 2013 at 11:33 pmSheryl

    Sarah, Thank you for that. I see many of us are in the same boat. You know, I prayed that God would send ministering spirits or his believers to help these folks and was reminded that I’m one of the believers….!! So I need to find a creative helpful way to help without enabling.

    John, Your passion for your beliefs is very energetic and challenging…I love it! And I will agree that God manifests himself in time and space…I just think my understanding is that God uses his heavenly host as his individual agents of whatever mission or message might be necessary. The bible says in Hebrews that Jesus was first a little lower than the angels until his resurrection, and now he is higher than the angels…which makes me assume that he can’t be an angel. I am comfortable that he was born human and was resurrected glorified. I just can’t find compelling scriptural evidence that Jesus pre-existed except in God’s plan. How do you explain when the angel Gabriel told Mary that a child would be “begotten” in her womb? If not begun at that moment, Jesus would have to be re-incarnated and that smacks of Eastern philosophy, IMHO.

    By the way….where does the original biblical language say that Jesus said he was going “back” to the Father? I think it says he is going “to” the father.

  158. on 15 Jan 2013 at 3:08 amJohn

    Sarah, Sheryl

    I don’t know all things about the nature of God but can only piece together verses that speak of His manifestation. How can one even touch upon the eternal, invisible, unseen and unheard God who is called, YAHWEH. How do you truly define, with complete clarity, a God who is unseen and can’t be seen yet has manifested Himself and unheard yet is heard? You could say He dwells in a fourth dimension, which is something outside of my grasp.

    God is Spirit yet He has an eternal Spirit that connects with the natural realm.

    Psalm 139:7-8 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

    In the Old Testament we find the eternal, invisible and unseen being manifested in time and space, in other words, made tangible.

    Tangible: capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch. Capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind.

    Notice how YAHWEH is manifesting His presence through His Spirit and that manifestation is called the Angel of the LORD or the Angel of His presence.

    Isaiah 63:8-10 For He said, “Surely they are My people, children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; so He turned Himself against them as an enemy, and He fought against them.

    Jesus, through the same eternal Spirit, is the manifestation of God’s presence only this time it’s in flesh and blood.

    The Father, Son and eternal Spirit make up the one true God.

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    I’m a retired police detective. I remember going to court to testify regarding speeding tickets I gave while using the radar gun. The radar gun is a very complex tool used for speed limit enforcement and defense lawyers know this. When the defense lawyer would ask me how the radar gun worked, in attempt to confuse me resulting in a dismissal, I was trained to respond to that question with, “I don’t know how the radar gun works, I only know how to work the radar gun.” This is very similar to how I view the nature of God.

    Now this may deep and maybe even a little Scifi but maybe the Father (YAHWEH) is the invisible side of God, the Son (Angel of the LORD\Jesus) is the tangible side of God and the eternal Spirit is the link between the both.

    When you read the Old Testament you will find the Father the Angel of the LORD and the Spirit are identified as one manifestation of true God. In the New Testament you find the Father, Jesus and the Spirit are identified as one manifestation of true God.

    The Angel of the LORD and Jesus are two sides of the same coin and that coin is God.

  159. on 15 Jan 2013 at 5:00 amSheryl

    John,

    I’m not convinced that there are scriptures indicating any of the angel manifestations were God himself, except in agency. Where you see one entity comprising father, son and spirit…I see one God who is spirit, and can send his holy spirit anywhere. I see him choosing to send angels to proclaim his word and as such the angels speak as though they are God…however they are angels of God, doing his work on his behalf. As it says in the beginning of Hebrews, in the old days God used angels and prophets to get his messages across…but when he fathered a human son, Jesus, his words would now be spoken through his son. Jesus emptied himself of his human ego to be filled with God’s spirit to enable him to remain sinless and do the work God meant for him to do…and was obedient even to death.

    I cannot see that Jesus was God the Son, or the son part of God. Jesus was a man (scripture backs this up) who lived by God’s spirit instead of living by flesh. I think we know when we ourselves are acting in spirit, and also when we are acting in flesh. If you can imagine being filled with the spirit and “manifesting” God’s holy love and perfection 100% of every day….well, I think that’s how Jesus lived and that is the perfection we strive for. That same holy spirit that is God and belongs to God, flows from God through Jesus and through us.

    In other words, the manifestations of the angels of the Lord are not THE Lord, they are the vessels God uses to get his message to his people. I don’t believe that Jesus was one of those Hebrew bible “vessels.”

    And I do agree that God’s nature is only understood by our pea brains in what we can figure out from his word. We love our God so much that we come on here to hope to share and glean knowledge from each other so that we can know our God the best we can. When you can, try reading Hebrews with the thought that Jesus is a human being born just like the rest of us with the exception that his bio father is God. See if makes sense to you.

  160. on 15 Jan 2013 at 9:21 amSarah

    John,

    In the New Testament you find the Father, Jesus and the Spirit are identified as one manifestation of true God.

    Sounds like you identify closely with the modalist view.

  161. on 15 Jan 2013 at 9:44 amJohn

    Sheryl

    Scriptures back up the fact that Jesus was a man, amen. That’s one side of the coin. The other side of the coin we find backed up in Scripture Jesus and the Angel of the Lord was God. If you can’t see that then it’s because you don’t want to see it, not because it’s not there.

    Within the oneness of God’s is His eternal power and divine nature.

    Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

    In the Angel of the LORD we find the blending of YAHEWH’s divine nature and the Angel of YAHWEH through the eternal Spirit.

    Isaiah 63:8-10 For He said, “Surely they are My people, children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; so He turned Himself against them as an enemy, and He fought against them.

    The first commandment warns us not to worship other Gods. Offering sacrifice to a being, other than YAHWEH, is a sin. Yet, we find the Angel of the LORD very plainly being called God and being worshiped as God.

    Judges 13:21-23 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”

    The Angel of the LORD is the God of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob.

    Exodus :1-8 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. And the Lord said: “I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites.

    There is a blending of the divine nature in the Angel of the LORD and YAHWEH. We see the same thing with Jesus.

    There is enough backing of Scripture to bring Thomas to the conclusion that Jesus was God or else he has another God.

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Peter came to the same conclusion.

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    Paul came to the same conclusion.

    Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Isaiah came to the same conclusion.

    Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Even YAHWEH Himself speaks contrary to what you’re saying.

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    Let us not use our lack of understanding to deny truth, but rather, let us through faith, believe.

    Jesus is called Wonderful because He is the Angel of the Lord is called Wonderful.

    (Isaiah 9:6) – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    (Judges 13:18) – And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    As a detective I had a few occasions to identify a suspect through, voice recognition. The Angel of the LORD, who is clearly identified as God in the Old Testament, is Jesus in the flesh in the New Testament. Notice the character trait in the voice of the Angel of the LORD as He repeats names twice. He carried this same character trait as the word made flesh.

    (Exodus 3:2-4) – And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

    Also again with Abraham.

    (Genesis 22:11) – But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.”

    (Genesis 46:2) – Then God spoke to Israel in the visions of the night, and said, “Jacob, Jacob!” And he said, “Here I am.”

    (1 Samuel 3:10) – The LORD came and stood and called as at other times, “Samuel! Samuel!” And Samuel answered, “Speak, for Your servant hears.”

    Now notice the same character trait in the word made flesh.

    (Luke 22:31) -Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat.

    (Acts 22:7) – And Saul fell to the ground and heard the voice of Jesus saying to me, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

    (Matthew 27:46) – About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

    (Luke 10:41) – Jesus answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things.

    (Matthew 23:37) – Jesus laments: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

    Jesus is a man through the seed of David but He is also the Angel of YAHWEH’s presence as the Bright and Morning Star.

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the Bright and Morning Star.

    Prior to the Angel of the LORD becoming flesh, He dwelt in the presence of His Father. He was rich, yet He became poor for us. He came to testify of what He has seen and heard while with the Father. This was all prior to becoming flesh and dwelling among us.

    Notice the personal knowledge of life with the Father Jesus had in His memory. This life was before He became flesh and dwelt among us.

    John 3:10-13 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, (I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness). If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven).

    John 3:31-32 (He who comes from heaven is greater than all others) he who comes from earth is of the earth, and of the earth are his words: he who comes from heaven is over all. (He gives witness of what he has seen and of what has come to his ears); and no man takes his witness as true.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only he who is from God, (he has seen the Father).

    He longed to be back in the presence of His Father, just like He had before the world was and before He became flesh and dwelt among us.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

    Stop looking at only one side of the coin. Take some time to flip the coin over and see what Scripture says about it.

    Here is true God…read it carefully.

    1 John 5:20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

  162. on 15 Jan 2013 at 11:21 amJohn

    How to keep the Sabbath holy, according to Jesus.

    God created everything in six days and He could have stopped right there, but He didn’t. He went on to include as part of creation a seventh day. He blessed the seventh day and called it holy and until this very day the whole world still has a seven day week for no other reason other than that’s how God created it.

    The seven day week is a huge testimony for creation and bears witness to a Creator. If the whole world honored God by keeping the seventh day holy we would be hard pressed to teach our children the theory of evolution.

    God protected the seventh day with His Law because He cares about His people. If any unbelieving boss forces you to work on the Sabbath he is accountable to God. This is not so with any other day of the week.

    God set aside the seventh day of every week for the sacred assembly of His people as a people of God.

    Leviticus 23:3 “Work may be done for six days, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, a sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD wherever you live.

    The seventh day has been blessed as part of creation itself so those who honor God, by celebrating it, will also be blessed.

    Isaiah 58:13-14 “If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own business on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own business, and speaking your own word then you will take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

    The Sabbath is a holy day and a holy day is to be celebrated.

    Nehemiah 8:10 Then he said to them, “Go your way, eat the fat, drink the sweet, and send portions to those for whom nothing is prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord. Do not sorrow, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.”

    Jesus came to restore the joy of the Sabbath. He lifted all the burdens that were placed on the Sabbath through the legalism and ritualism of the religious Jews.

    The teachings and life of Jesus taught us principles of how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of the spirit of the Law.

    The spirit or purpose of the Law is to define godly love. In all the teachings of Jesus you never, not even once, hear Him do away with the Sabbath nor do you here Him changing the day of the Sabbath from the the seventh day to the first. What you do hear, in the life and teachings of Jesus, is how to keep the Sabbath holy in light of things that come up on the Sabbath.

    All the teachings of Jesus, regarding the Sabbath, was in light of how the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

    The Sabbath is suppose to be a blessing and a joy for mankind, not a burden. The Sabbath a time that is set aside to put down our tools of trade and come from far and near to celebrate God as a people. Basically the same way you view Sunday is how we should view the Sabbath.

    As Sunday keepers, all throughout the week we look forward to Sunday. We look forward to getting together with our brothers and sisters in Christ to hear the preacher to share in the gifts that God has given to His church. We sing and worship as a people. We give testimony and express the needs of the body. We gather in fellowship for potluck. This is a joyous time and it should be. You don’t work on Sunday because of some Law, but rather, we don’t work on Sunday because we don’t want to miss out on all the blessings and fellowship. If we could just switch our day of celebration to honor God and obey Him as a people we would be glorifying and honoring Him on His sacred day. This is why God says take the seventh day off from work. He even protected the seventh day for His people with His Law to protect His people against unbelieving bosses. He never protected Sunday, Sunday is one of the six days He created for work.

    What did Jesus teach us regarding a necessity to work on the Sabbath?

    Luke 13:14-16 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.” The Lord then answered him and said, “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?”

    Luke 14:5 Then He answered them, saying, “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?”

    This next verse is very important to understand because this is where Jesus puts the Sabbath in it’s right perspective when He says the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

    Mark 2:23-28 Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. And the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?” And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

    Jesus understands things happen and things need to be done. The Sabbath should not be kept in such a ritualistic way that everything we do on the Sabbath becomes a sin. It’s interesting in the above verses how Jesus points us back to the old covenant to teach a principle of Sabbath keeping under the new covenant. This means that even under the old covenant doing necessary things on the Sabbath was not a violation of Law.

    Working a job on the Sabbath, to care for your family, is not a violation of the Sabbath if it’s necessary to do. Working on the Sabbath, out of necessity was not a violation of the Sabbath, even under the old covenant. Listen.

    2 Kings 11:4-11 In the seventh year Jehoiada sent and brought the captains of hundreds—of the bodyguards and the escorts—and brought them into the house of the Lord to him. And he made a covenant with them and took an oath from them in the house of the Lord, and showed them the king’s son. Then he commanded them, saying, “This is what you shall do: one-third of you who come on duty on the Sabbath shall be keeping watch over the king’s house, one-third shall be at the gate of Sur, and one-third at the gate behind the escorts. You shall keep the watch of the house, lest it be broken down. The two contingents of you who go off duty on the Sabbath shall keep the watch of the house of the Lord for the king. But you shall surround the king on all sides, every man with his weapons in his hand; and whoever comes within range, let him be put to death. You are to be with the king as he goes out and as he comes in.” So the captains of the hundreds did according to all that Jehoiada the priest commanded. Each of them took his men who were to be on duty on the Sabbath, with those who were going off duty on the Sabbath, and came to Jehoiada the priest. And the priest gave the captains of hundreds the spears and shields which had belonged to King David, that were in the temple of the Lord. Then the escorts stood, every man with his weapons in his hand, all around the king, from the right side of the temple to the left side of the temple, by the altar and the house.

    It’s all about heart…. If you love God you will honor His wishes. You will keep the Sabbath holy because you see it as a gift to mankind from our heavenly Father. When you love God you will view the seventh day Sabbath in the same way you would view your child’s birthday or your wedding anniversary. You remember these days in your life not because of some Law, but rather, because they are special times for you. Well, the seventh day is special time for God, even He rested on it. This is how we should view the seventh day Sabbath.

    Satan hates the Sabbath because it testifies of creation and it’s Creator. Because of this he has changed the day from the seventh day to the first day. Now all of God’s people are forgetting the Sabbath when the will of God is for His people to remember the Sabbath.

    Listen to how cleaver Satan is in how he changed the Sabbath to Sunday and then Christianized it through a false religious system.

    Official Statements of the Catholic Church

    Question – Which is the Sabbath day?
    Answer – Saturday is the Sabbath day.
    Question – Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
    Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd ed.

    “Sunday is our MARK or authority. . .the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact” Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

    “Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles…From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” The Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August, 1900.

    Now watch how all the world is forced to worship the Beast. This enforcement of Sunday worship is not only in the US, but rather, it’s all through the world.

    In the U.S., Sunday is not only a religious holiday but is also the only common-law holiday -“Holiday,” 1994 Funk & Wagnall’s

    Blue Law:- One of a body of laws in colonial New England designed to enforce certain moral standards. 2.Law designed to regulate Sunday activities. American Heritage Dictionary & Electronic Thesaurus

    The Blue Law – A legal means to enforce Sunday worship by secular authority.

    …blue laws legislation regulating public and private conduct, especially laws relating to Sabbath observance.

    The blue law restricts activities and sales of goods on Sunday, to accommodate the Christian sabbath. The first blue law in the American colonies was enacted in Virginia in 1617. It required church attendance and authorized the militia to force colonists to attend church services.

    There is an old saying that one cannot legislate morality, but the concept behind a blue law comes as close as possible. In the modern sense of the term, a blue law is any ordinance that attempts to control the sale of commerce or limit business hours on Sunday, also known as the Lord’s Day or the Christian Sabbath. Many parts of New England and the South still observe a number of blue law restrictions, especially the prohibition of alcohol sales and the limited hours permitted for retail sales on Sundays.

    Although much of this legislation has been softened if not repealed, there are still many areas and communities in the United States, especially those where religious fundamentalism is strong, that retain blue laws. The Supreme Court has upheld Sunday closing laws ruling that such laws do not interfere with the free exercise of religion and do not constitute the establishment of a state religion.

    Many states forbade the sale of cigarettes, and laws prohibited secular amusements as well as all unnecessary work on Sunday; provision was made for strict local censorship of books, plays, films and other means of instruction and entertainment.

    Regulations imposed to enforce the Sunday worship.

    The first laws regulating public activities on Sundays were passed in colonial Virginia in the 1620s. Similar laws intended to keep the Sabbath holy were soon adopted elsewhere in America. Typically, all forms of trade or commerce were outlawed. No public entertainment or meetings were permitted, except of course for church services, which often included two-hour services in the morning and the afternoon. Travel on Sunday was banned, except for emergencies. Violators were subject to fines imposed by civil authorities.

    A blue law is one restricting activities or sales of goods on Sunday, to accommodate the Christian sabbath. The first blue law in the American colonies was enacted in Virginia in 1617. It required church attendance and authorized the militia to force colonists to attend church services.

    Penalties for violating the Blue Law

    Whippings, fines, burnt tongues, severed ears: such were the Puritans’ penalties for breaches of the Sabbath. Under the “blue laws” of the 1700s, the punishments could be invoked for simple misdeeds ranging from shuffleboard to skipping church.

    Listen my brothers and sisters in the Lord, these changes to the Sabbath did not come form God but are of Satan and his Antichrist and the whole world is being deceived, just like God said.

  163. on 15 Jan 2013 at 11:22 amJohn

    Sarah

    Not sure what the modalist view is.

  164. on 15 Jan 2013 at 11:25 amSarah

    John,

    I appreciate your attention to detail. I imagine that your career as a detective has enhanced your ability to sniff out similar patterns in scripture. I’ve spent the last decade as a computer programmer, so pattern-hunting is second nature to me too.

    I agree, it’s no coincidence Jesus used name repetition in a similar manner to certain passages in the OT. It doesn’t surprise me, given the fact that the Son’s mission was to reveal his Father to us. The fully human Last Adam was sent by God to preach a message, and in obedience Jesus spoke what his Father told him to say.

    (Jhn 14:24) Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

    So yes, his words will naturally sound a lot like his Father’s. But that doesn’t mean the son IS the father.

  165. on 15 Jan 2013 at 11:48 amJohn

    Here is a very sad statement…”and no man takes his witness as true”.

    This statement is found at the end of Jesus’ personal testimony of how He literally came down from heaven and while He was in heaven He personally saw and heard things that He is testifying of but no one is believing Him.

    John 3:31-32 (He who comes from heaven is greater than all others) he who comes from earth is of the earth, and of the earth are his words: he who comes from heaven is over all. (He gives witness of what he has seen and of what has come to his ears); and no man takes his witness as true.

    Jesus is plainly telling us how He was in heaven prior to becoming flesh and while He was in heaven He personally witnessed things, with His own eyes, and heard things, with His own ears, which He is testifying of and no one is believing Him. Are you one of them?

  166. on 15 Jan 2013 at 12:08 pmJohn

    Sarah

    “So yes, his words will naturally sound a lot like his Father’s. But that doesn’t mean the son IS the father.”

    Amen!!! Like Father, like Son.

    The Father is God and Jesus is God.

    A son comes from the loins of his father, which makes him a son and of the same nature as his father.

    The Angel of the LORD came from the loins of YAHWEH, which make Him a Son and is of the same nature as His Father. This Son became flesh and dwelt among us.

    Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?

    Psalm 2:12 Pay homage to the Son or He will be angry and you will perish in your rebellion, for His anger may ignite at any moment.
    All those who take refuge in Him are happy.

    The Angel of the LORD was the Son who was sent to take on sinful flesh.

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.

    He gave up so much for us when He did this.

    2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

    Jesus is the Angel of the LORD or Son of God in His poor state haven given up His rich state in heavenly glory.

    Listen to the tone of His voice, He really missed the glory He had in the presence of His Father even before the world began. Listen.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

  167. on 15 Jan 2013 at 1:21 pmMike Gantt

    John (#166),

    Do you believe then that God is two?

  168. on 15 Jan 2013 at 1:46 pmWolfgang

    John

    Listen to the tone of His voice, He really missed the glory He had in the presence of His Father even before the world began. Listen.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    HOW did Jesus have this glory before the world began? As we see from the gospels (in particular Mt and Lk), Jesus became alive with the conception and birth approx 2000 years ago … but was thus not alive “before the world began” … so then, HOW could he have glory with God before he was alive?

  169. on 15 Jan 2013 at 1:56 pmJohn

    Mike

    My father and I are two in persons but one or sameness in human nature. YAHWEH and His Son are two in persons but in divine nature they are one or sameness. My father is human so I’m human. YAHWEH is God so His Son is also God.

  170. on 15 Jan 2013 at 2:35 pmJohn

    Wolfgang

    (I don’t know how to grey the quotes)

    …………..HOW did Jesus have this glory before the world began? As we see from the gospels (in particular Mt and Lk), Jesus became alive with the conception and birth approx 2000 years ago … but was thus not alive “before the world began” … so then, HOW could he have glory with God before he was alive?……………………………………..

    I notice how you say, “in particular Mt and Lk”. There is a reason for this. If you notice each of the four gospels focuses on a different side or aspect of Jesus.

    The human side of the Son of God had it’s beginning approx. 2000 years ago but He existed prior to that.

    John 1:14-16 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

    Here is a very sad statement…”and no man takes his witness as true”.

    This statement is found at the end of Jesus’ personal testimony of how He literally came down from heaven and while He was in heaven He personally saw and heard things that He is testifying of but no one is believing Him.

    John 3:31-32 (He who comes from heaven is greater than all others) he who comes from earth is of the earth, and of the earth are his words: he who comes from heaven is over all. (He gives witness of what he has seen and of what has come to his ears); and no man takes his witness as true.

    Jesus is plainly telling us how He was in heaven prior to becoming flesh and while He was in heaven He personally witnessed things, with His own eyes, and heard things, with His own ears, which He is testifying of and no one is believing Him. Are you one of them?

  171. on 15 Jan 2013 at 2:51 pmWolfgang

    John

    My father and I are two in persons but one or sameness in human nature. YAHWEH and His Son are two in persons but in divine nature they are one or sameness. My father is human so I’m human. YAHWEH is God so His Son is also God.

    so then according to your interpretation, “God” is not a “person”, but a “nature” (as in divine “nature”)? Now, a “nature” does not act or do anything, yet the Bible throughout speaks about “God” (and uses the word “God” !!) acting and doing things …
    Seems to me that your idea about “God” being a “nature” (rather than a person) is contrary to what the Scriptures tell us …

  172. on 15 Jan 2013 at 2:57 pmWolfgang

    John,

    Jesus is plainly telling us how He was in heaven prior to becoming flesh and while He was in heaven He personally witnessed things, with His own eyes, and heard things, with His own ears, which He is testifying of and no one is believing Him. Are you one of them?

    I would suggest that you read more carefully rather than read into the text what is actually not there …
    Nowhere in Scripture (also not in the passage to which you make reference) does Jesus tell anyone that he was living in heaven prior to his birth.
    Nowhere does Scripture say that “he [Jesus] became flesh” … Joh 1:14 states that “word became flesh” which is NOT the same as “he [Jesus] became flesh” as you mention here.
    Nowhere does Scripture tell that Jesus prior to his birth was in heaven seeing and hearing things …

    Are you one of those who do not believe Jesus, but rather believe church fathers and their successors and their unbiblical doctrines?

  173. on 15 Jan 2013 at 3:22 pmJohn

    Wolfgang

    God is a title given to a person or thing because of it’s nature.

    Galatians 4:8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

    Here in the above verses these people were worshiping idols, some wood and some stone. Some were even planets, yet they viewed them as gods.

    YAHWEH is a person. YAHWEH’s Son is a person and by nature they are God.

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    Notice the Father and Son make up true God.

  174. on 15 Jan 2013 at 3:24 pmJohn

    Wolfgang

    Here is a very sad statement…”and no man takes his witness as true”.

    This statement is found at the end of Jesus’ personal testimony of how He literally came down from heaven and while He was in heaven He personally saw and heard things that He is testifying of but no one is believing Him.

    John 3:31-32 (He who comes from heaven is greater than all others) he who comes from earth is of the earth, and of the earth are his words: he who comes from heaven is over all. (He gives witness of what he has seen and of what has come to his ears); and no man takes his witness as true.

    Jesus is plainly telling us how He was in heaven prior to becoming flesh and while He was in heaven He personally witnessed things, with His own eyes, and heard things, with His own ears, which He is testifying of and no one is believing Him. Are you one of them?

  175. on 15 Jan 2013 at 3:39 pmMike Gantt

    John (#169),

    Of course, the trinity concept says that God is three persons in one being. Are you saying that your conception is that there are two persons (i.e. Father and Son) in one being (who is the one God)…or two persons (Father and Son) in two beings (i.e. two Gods)?

  176. on 15 Jan 2013 at 4:33 pmJohn

    Mike

    My father is human by nature so that makes me human. If I had brothers they too would be human by nature because they came out of the same human father. YAHWEH is God by divine nature so that makes His Son God by divine nature. YAHWEH’s family is expanding in that His goal is to have many to partake of His divine nature. Jesus is the first of many…

  177. on 15 Jan 2013 at 4:52 pmMike Gantt

    John (176),

    So what do you make of the Scriptures that say God is one?

  178. on 15 Jan 2013 at 6:15 pmtimothy

    John,

    Jesus had several brothers and sisters.

  179. on 15 Jan 2013 at 6:16 pmJohn

    Mike

    We know there are many gods in heaven and earth but to us there is God who is supreme and who is the source of all things and one Lord Jesus through and by whom are all things.

    1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is [only] one God, the Father, Who is the Source of all things and for Whom we [have life], and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through and by Whom are all things and through and by Whom we [ourselves exist].

    YAHWEH is the source of all things and Jesus is the means by which are all things. Without YAHWEH there would be nothing, not even Jesus.

    You could say that the nature of God expands.

    The Father and Son make up true God.

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

  180. on 15 Jan 2013 at 9:42 pmSean

    1 John 5.20 does not teach Jesus is God. (click here for more details)

  181. on 15 Jan 2013 at 10:43 pmJohn

    Tim

    Jesus’ brothers and sisters are those who do is Father’s will who is in heave.

  182. on 15 Jan 2013 at 10:49 pmJohn

    Sean

    If YAHWEH alone is true God then does that make Jesus a false God?

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

  183. on 15 Jan 2013 at 11:46 pmSheryl

    John,

    “If you can’t see that then it’s because you don’t want to see it, not because it’s not there.”

    For 25 years I was a trinitarian and I DID see Christophonies (?) in the OT because that’s what my church taught me. Once I got away from church doctrine and studied on my own and saw that I needed to pray fervently for God’s wisdom and discernment, I saw the bible in a whole new light and consider that knowledge a revelation of the holy spirit.

    It wasn’t easy to let go of those long held and cherished beliefs. It was nice to think that Jesus was back there in the beginning working for God and appearing on earth … but the bible doesn’t say that. The bible says that in OT days God spoke through prophets and angels … it does NOT say that God spoke through his pre-incarnate son, Jesus (and if this was true I wonder why God doesn’t just say that?) God does say that NOW he speaks through his son.

    (that’s as far as I got on your post answering mine…!) 🙂

  184. on 16 Jan 2013 at 1:06 amJohn

    Sheryl

    I’m not a Trinitarian. I use to be one many years ago but then I became a Unitarian but then realized, through the study of the Scripture, the Unitarian belief did cover all the bases either.

    Listen.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, (((through whom also He made the worlds))).

    First of all notice how it says the worlds/ages (plural) was made through the Son. The ages refer to all the different dispensations of time.

    The Spirit of God was speaking to and through the prophets in the Old Testament.

    The Spirit of God also manifested and spoke as the Angel of the LORD. Read and see YAHWEH, the Angel of His presence and the Holy Spirit all working as one.

    Isaiah 63:8-10 For (((He said))), “Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And (((the Angel of His Presence))) saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old. (((But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit))); So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.

    The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are one and the same.

    Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the (((Spirit of God))) dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the (((Spirit of Christ))), he is not His.

    The Spirit of God which spoke to the prophets in times past is the Spirit of Christ.

    1 Peter 1:10-12 Of this salvation (((the prophets))) have inquired and searched diligently, and have prophesied of the grace that should come unto you, searching what, or what manner of time, the (((Spirit of Christ who was in them))) had signified when He testified beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.

    YAHWEH is Spirit but He also has an eternal Spirit of which manifests YAHWEH’s presence in time and space.

    Psalm 139:7-8 Where can I go from (((Your Spirit)))? Or where can I flee from (((Your presence)))? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

    When you interact with the Spirit of God through inspiration you are interacting with God and when you interact with the Angel of the LORD you are interacting with a tangible manifestation of God through same eternal Spirit.

    This same eternal Spirit manifested God in human flesh.

    Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the (((eternal Spirit))) offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    When Jesus was pierced YAHWEH felt it.

    Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; (((then they will look on Me whom they pierced))). Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

    John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

    I understand how this is a very complicated subject but we must use all of Scripture and connect all the dots. We should leave no stone unturned just to fit God in a nice little box.

  185. on 16 Jan 2013 at 3:37 amtimothy

    John,

    you wrote and are avoiding scripture:

    “Jesus’ brothers and sisters are those who do is Father’s will who is in heave.”

    I wrote:

    “Jesus had several brothers and sisters.”

    Matthew wrote by revelation of Jesus Christ:

    Matthew 13: (kjv)

    55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

    Mark also wrote by revelation of Jesus Christ:

    Mark 6:3
    3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

    Your tangent has lead you farther away, where you are avoiding a precious thing to Jesus Christ, his human dna siblings from his human mother and step father Joseph. Why are they mentioned, well he loved them too.

    Are you offended because I loveingly practice:

    2 Timothy 4: (kjv)
    4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

    Why do the above? doctrine–reproof–correction

    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

  186. on 16 Jan 2013 at 8:48 amJohn

    timothy

    What does Joseph and Mary having children have to do with Jesus. Jesus’ father is not Joseph.

  187. on 16 Jan 2013 at 9:13 amWolfgang

    John,

    you mentioned above

    God is a title given to a person or thing because of it’s nature.

    Galatians 4:8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

    Here in the above verses these people were worshiping idols, some wood and some stone. Some were even planets, yet they viewed them as gods.

    YAHWEH is a person. YAHWEH’s Son is a person and by nature they are God.

    Your last statement should read more accurately:
    YAHWEH is a person. YAHWEH’s Son is a person. And by nature they are GODS (plural).

    Now, since such would be unbiblical, the logical conclusions is that your ideas about God and Jesus being “God” (singular) is incorrect.

    Biblically correct would be the statement:
    YAHWEH is a person. YAHWEH’s Son is a person. YAHWEH is God, His Son is a human.

  188. on 16 Jan 2013 at 9:40 amJohn

    —————————-The Sunday Delusion——————————

    All through the Scriptures we find the seventh day of creation as special time.

    It was created, blessed and called holy as part of creation itself.

    The Father was the first to keep it holy.

    Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

    Jesus kept it holy.

    Luke 4:16 When Jesus came to the village of Nazareth, his boyhood home, he went as usual to the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read the Scriptures.

    Paul kept it holy.

    Acts 17:2 Paul went into the synagogue as he always did and on each Sabbath day for three weeks, he talked with his fellow Jews about the Scriptures.

    The early church kept it holy. And keep in mind, this was years after Jesus’ resurrection.

    Acts 13:42 As they Paul and Barnabas went out of the synagogue, the people earnestly begged that these things might be told to them further the next Sabbath.
    Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

    Why not just tell them to come back the next day, which would have been Sunday? Why wait a whole week to hear the word of God again? If the Sabbath was changed to Sunday this would have been the perfect time for Paul to do so, but he didn’t.

    The seventh day is the only day protected by God’s Law in the fourth commandment.

    It’s the longest and most detailed of all the commandments.

    It’s the only commandment that effects both humans and animals.

    It’s the only commandment that begins with, REMEMBER.

    It’s the only commandment that is forgotten.

    So how did we come to the point of forgetting the seventh day to remembering the first day? The answer is, DELUSION!

    The number one reason people give for making the change from God’s seventh day Sabbath to Sunday, the first day, is the celebration of Jesus’ resurrection.

    They say that since Jesus was resurrected on Sunday the seventh day Sabbath was now changed to Sunday, the first day, in order to celebrate Jesus’ resurrection.

    You can search all of the New Testament and you will not find one verse that authorizes such a change.

    So where do they get their biblical support for this change? There must be something in the Bible since the whole world is doing it.

    The answer is, delusion.

    Let me explain….

    The number one verse used to support the Sabbath change, as a result of celebrating Jesus’ resurrection, is found in John 20:19.

    John 20:19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

    Now lets break this down.

    They say the disciples gathered on the first day in John 20:19 to worship and celebrate Jesus’ resurrection but this is not what the verse is saying. Look at it carefully.

    Why were they together of the first day in John 20:19?

    They were hiding for fear of the Jews because Jesus had been crucified and they thought the same would happen to them. They were not gathering for a worship service nor were they celebrating Jesus’ resurrection. As a matter of fact, they didn’t even know Jesus had resurrected at this point, that’s why they were hiding.

    So you see, Sunday observance, in light of Jesus’ resurrection, is false.

    So were did the change from the seventh day to the first day really come form?

    —————–Official Statements of the Catholic Church—————–

    Question – Which is the Sabbath day?
    Answer – Saturday is the Sabbath day.
    Question – Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
    Answer – We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd ed.

    “Sunday is our MARK or authority. . .the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact” Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

    Who are you following????

  189. on 16 Jan 2013 at 9:50 amJohn

    Wolfgang

    The word, God is an authoritative title such as the word, police. If you called the police would it matter if one police cruiser showed up or ten showed up you would still say the police are here.

    It would matter if YAHWEH showed up or the Spirit of YAHWEH showed up or Jesus showed up or all showed up you would still say God is here.

  190. on 16 Jan 2013 at 9:52 amJohn

    Wolfgang

    The word, God is an authoritative title such as the word, police. If you called the police would it matter if one police cruiser showed up or ten showed up you would still say the police are here.

    It wouldn’t matter if YAHWEH showed up or the Spirit of YAHWEH showed up or Jesus showed up or all showed up you would still say God is here.

  191. on 16 Jan 2013 at 9:57 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Yes indeed.

    You wrote above:

    “YAHWEH is a person. YAHWEH’s Son is a person. YAHWEH is God, His Son is a human.”

    Jesus had a human family with a mother and brothers and sisters. This is a normal human thing and he had a human step father who cared for him from birth and raised him to be a man of good GODly character.

    Jesus is a human being, not GOD, who gave himself as a living sacrifice and was raised from the dead by GOD into a resurrected human being with a new spiritual body.

    And yes, he now has a human family, with human beings having their parakletos representing him today here on Earth. Jesus Christ is not GOD, he is the human High Priest and King speaking for GOD through his spirit indwelling in the members of his body.

    GOD is Jesus Christ father and ours by adoption. Joseph is Jesus’ mothers husband and father of his earthly dna siblings. Luke protrays Jesus as a human man as reflected in his geneology, Adam to Joseph.

    Jesus Christ is our resurrected, human High Preiest and King, after the order of human High Priest and King, Melchizedek.

    Timothy

  192. on 16 Jan 2013 at 10:28 amJohn

    timothy

    So all these verses are lying?

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    If YAHWEH alone is God then does that mean Thomas is making Jesus a false God?

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    True God and eternal life includes the Father and Son.

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    True God and eternal life is fellowship with the Father and Son

    John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    Knowing the Father and Son is eternal life.

    You don’t have to believe me when I call Jesus, God but at least believe YAHWEH when He calls Jesus, God.

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

  193. on 16 Jan 2013 at 10:38 amJohn

    YAHWEH is all powerful and omnipresent.

    He can, through His eternal Spirit, manifest His presence through fire, burning bushes, an Angel and so on but there there things YAHWEH can’t do…

    He can’t lie.

    He can’t make a rock so big that He can’t lift it.

    He can’t manifest His presence, through His eternal Spirit, as a human being.

    Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    Oops!!! That verse accidentally slipped in…SORRY!

  194. on 16 Jan 2013 at 11:23 amJas

    John
    Have you ever took the time to read Isaiah in context to understand this was speaking of a person in 8th century BC which means this special conception and God coming through a human birth has happened twice with God failing the first time to be perfect

  195. on 16 Jan 2013 at 11:54 amSarah

    John,

    So all these verses are lying?

    I think we all agree on the veracity and authority of scripture. The debate is over how to interpret certain passages.

    By the way, you’ve used John 20:28 as a proof text that Jesus is God on several occasions. But a more thorough look at the verse and its context reveal a different story:

    http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Jn20_28.html

  196. on 16 Jan 2013 at 12:52 pmJohn

    Well, here is how I see it. I choose to see and use, as part of my belief system, all the verses in the Bible that speak of a life that Jesus had before becoming flesh. I also use Jesus’ personal I witness testimony of what He has seen and heard while with His Father in heaven. I also take to heart His personal desire to back in the presence of his Father just like He had before the world began. Also, I get a little suspicious when thousands of words are used to change a simple and plain statement by people such as Thomas’ declaration of Jesus being his God. We also must not forget the words of YAHWEH Himself declaring His Son to be God.

    Remember, Jesus was a man as the seed of David but He is also the Bright and Morning Star who became flesh and dwelt among us.

  197. on 16 Jan 2013 at 1:18 pmtimothy

    Sarah,

    Thanks for all the links you share. I visited the websit…..read the research paper and listened to one of the video teachings.

    There is so much to learn and ponder. The teacher brought up the point about the spirit of the anti Christ leading so many people in the wrong way to destruction.

    The parable of the sower is so important to understand and follow. There are warnings of what to be cautious for, the devices of our adversary the devil, the god of this age.

    2 Corinthians 4:4
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Matthew 7: (kjv)
    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    se’ agapao Sarah

    Timothy

  198. on 16 Jan 2013 at 2:36 pmSarah

    You’re very welcome, Timothy. I’ve found the TrinityDelusion website to be a useful resource. LHIM supports it too – you’ll notice a link to it at the upper right corner of this page.

  199. on 16 Jan 2013 at 3:52 pmWolfgang

    John,

    you claim above

    The word, God is an authoritative title such as the word, police.

    you have pointed out the root of the whole misunderstanding … the word “God” is NOT a term describing a group, institution, family, association, department etc ! “God” is not an authoritative title such as “police”.

  200. on 16 Jan 2013 at 3:58 pmWolfgang

    John,

    you write above

    Well, here is how I see it. I choose to see and use, as part of my belief system, all the verses in the Bible that speak of a life that Jesus had before becoming flesh.

    here is the basic error: You are actually NOT using the verses in the Bible that speak of a life that Jesus had before becoming flesh … instead, you are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of verses which you interpret as if they speak of a life that Jesus had before becoming flesh … In truth, there is NOT one verse which speaks of a life Jesus had prior to him being born

  201. on 16 Jan 2013 at 5:08 pmJohn

    Wolfgang

    Let me help you come to the light through the Scriptures.

    Genesis 1:26-28 And God H430 said H559, Let us make H6213 man H120 in our image H6754, after our likeness H1823: and let them have dominion H7287 over the fish H1710 of the sea H3220, and over the fowl H5775 of the air H8064, and over the cattle H929, and over all the earth H776, and over every creeping thing H7431 that creepeth H7430 upon the earth H776. 27 So God H430 created H1254 man H120 in his [own] image H6754, in the image H6754 of God H430 created H1254 he him; male H2145 and female H5347 created H1254 he them.

    The word (God) is the word (elohiym). This word has within it’s meaning a plurality.

    H430 אֱלוֹהִים ‘elohiym (el-o-heem’) n-m.
    1. gods in the ordinary sense
    2. but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God
    3. occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates
    4. and sometimes as a superlative
    [plural of H433]
    KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
    Root(s): H433

    Now notice how God says, “Let (Us) make man in (Our) image” yet when He creates man He uses a singular pronoun.

    So you see, the word (God) is a little more deeper than you’re allowing it to be.

    Again…notice the (Us) when referring to how God would go down and confuse their language.

    Genesis 11:7 “Come, let (Us) go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

    And again…notice the (Us).

    Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for (Us)?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

    Now take a close notice….cause you might miss the (Our) and the (We)….I don’t think Jesus was speaking French.

    John 3:11 “Most assuredly, I say to you, (We) speak what (We) know and testify what (We) have seen, and you do not receive (Our) witness.

    If you can step out of your box for a minute and look at both sides of the coin you might find that you’ve been missing something.

  202. on 16 Jan 2013 at 6:51 pmJas

    Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for (Us)?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

    John
    Again I ask if you have taken the time to really understand this whole passage.
    I dont think Jesus spoke any thing in this verse. Isaiah Heard GOD speak to the host of Heaven,then ISAIAH answered “Here am I! Send me.”

  203. on 16 Jan 2013 at 6:54 pmSheryl

    Hi John,

    I believe it is accurate to interpret the “us” in the “us/we” verses you mentioned above as God and his heavenly host. You have to read into the text that God was speaking with Jesus…the text never says that. I lean toward the “heavenly host” as the other conversant with God because in the passage where God is conferring to send someone down to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, angels of the Lord appear to Abraham. It is not far-fetched to link those angels of the lord (representing God’s directives and voice) with the other half of the conversation God was having in the “us/we” verses. And in the passage where the prophet says “Here am I! Send me!” his vision as he made his declaration placed him in the heavenly court with God and his angels…nowhere is the pre-incarnate son of God mentioned.

    I’ve been accused of picking out verses here and there to support my position. It is easy to use Thomas’ emotional outburst when he finally recognizes the risen Jesus as a “proof text” … but there is more to that story. You need to go back to the last supper when Jesus stated that when you see him (Jesus) you see God. Notice he does not come out and say to his beloved disciples “I am God.” He NEVER says that. In fact he ALWAYS defers to God and humbles himself completely. What he was trying to say is … if you want to know what God is like, this is it…I am what God is like. Jesus is the perfect representation of his father in Heaven…and the proof is that God approved and anointed him as the Messiah. So to look at Jesus is to see God in him. I believe that is what Thomas meant…he finally saw that God truly was in Jesus.

  204. on 16 Jan 2013 at 8:11 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    Shall I write off what YAHWEH Himself said about His Son as well?

  205. on 16 Jan 2013 at 8:18 pmSarah

    John,

    Now take a close notice….cause you might miss the (Our) and the (We)….I don’t think Jesus was speaking French.

    John 3:11 “Most assuredly, I say to you, (We) speak what (We) know and testify what (We) have seen, and you do not receive (Our) witness.

    Indeed he was not speaking French. But neither was he speaking of a mystical 2-in-1 existence. Nicodemus would have understood that about as well as he would have understood French.

    Notice that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about being born of the Holy Spirit just prior to the verse you quoted. When Nicodemus expressed doubt, Jesus responded in Jn 3:11 by referring to his and John’s combined testimony about the Holy Spirit at Jesus’ baptism.

    We read in John 1 that the apostle was also a “witness” who gave “testimony” that he “saw” the Holy Spirit descending as a dove, and “heard” the voice from heaven affirming Jesus as God’s son.

    Jhn 1:19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”

    Jhn 1:32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him.

  206. on 16 Jan 2013 at 8:25 pmSheryl

    John, I hope I didn’t give you the impression that I write off anything in God’s word. But on the surface, what God said about Jesus, out loud so everyone could hear:

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    And behold a voice from Heaven that said, “This is my Son, The Beloved, in whom I am delighted.”

    or, “And there was a cloud and it was a shelter about them, and a voice from the cloud which said, “This is my Beloved Son, hear him.”

    So God commands us to to hear his son, in whom he is well pleased. And what does Jesus teach us? That he is God’s son….not God. If you accept that and believe it, then everything else makes perfect sense.

  207. on 16 Jan 2013 at 8:41 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    This is what God says about His Son, Hebrews 1:8.

  208. on 16 Jan 2013 at 8:58 pmJas

    John
    actually the word translated “unto” is prov(strongs 4314 ) is translated”for” 32 times in netbible and 26 times in av and is the word translated “for” in 2 Timothy 3:16
    kinda changes the context doesn’t it

  209. on 16 Jan 2013 at 9:33 pmRay

    I’ve heard it said that whenever we see “the angel of the Lord” written in the OT, that it’s always a manifestation of Christ, the Son of God, the point being not to come up with a new doctrine, or to find a new definition of the word angel, rather to teach people things about the Lord Jesus.

    Whether we say that it is or that it could certainly be so, our attention should be drawn to seek out the truth concerning Christ.

    I am one that believes it certainly could be so. I see no reason why it could not be so.

    I wonder why some seem to struggle so at such a thing. Why such a struggle with such a thing as that?

    What if the Church had more unity in doctrine as well as in practice?

    Consider Exodus 18:12 and Psalm 133.

    When bretheren dwell together in unity before God, isn’t Jesus present? Wouldn’t he join in? And there might come a blessing in the form of an anointing, or some other manifestation of the grace of God.

  210. on 16 Jan 2013 at 10:05 pmJohn

    Ray

    Unity of believes is why I believe there are so many denominations in the world. The Bible is a complicated book with a spiritual, as well as, a literal application. Some will go to such lengths in describing the elephant’s head while others will go just as far to describe the elephant’s tail. Both groups are describing the same elephant but they just can’t come to a unity. I guess we’ll all see the whole elephant when Jesus comes.

  211. on 16 Jan 2013 at 10:51 pmSheryl

    John… My sentiments precisely! We are all wanting the same thing, to know the one true Yahweh God and his son Jesus the Christ. We must never, ever let our love for one another become diluted because we don’t see the same things in the bible. We are on this site primarily because we all love God, the rest is stimulating conversation.

  212. on 17 Jan 2013 at 6:28 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (200),

    What are the three verses that you think are most challenging to your position, and how do you defend your position against them?

  213. on 17 Jan 2013 at 7:34 amWolfgang

    Mike Gantt

    What are the three verses that you think are most challenging to your position, and how do you defend your position against them?

    I do not know of any pro-trinitarian verse in the Scriptures … all pro-trinity arguments I have encountered (or have used myself many years ago while engulfed in the trinity belief) are NOT statements from Scripture but rather more or less obvious mis-interpretations of what the verses state. There is no defense needed … when taking a closer look at the arguments presented, what is argued usually by itself already contains the error in either incorrect reading of the text, or using perhaps an incorrect translation, or incorrect conclusions drawn from wrong premises, etc.

    Scripture states that God is Only ONE (“person”), so any position which has God being more than one (such as Two or Three “persons”) must of necessity be wrong.

  214. on 17 Jan 2013 at 9:02 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (213),

    I was not speaking of the trinity, but rather of Jesus’ pre-existence.

    I agree with your position on the trinity. However, there are a number of verses which, at the very least, seem to speak of Jesus’ pre-existence. It is those to which I was referring.

  215. on 17 Jan 2013 at 9:40 amWolfgang

    Mike (214)

    Jesus did pre-exist … BUT he did not “pre-live”. Jesus was a human being, human beings do not live in some other sphere as some other type of living being prior to their birth. Thus, Jesus could not have lived prior to his birth as something else … or else, he was not a true human being.

    IF Jesus was indeed a human being, then any verse which might be understood as if Jesus had lived prior to his birth, need therefore be examined to see if there is a different understanding possible which would not be contradictory.

    Usually, Joh 1:1ff is “thrown into the pot” as proof text that Jesus lived with God prior to his conception and birth … BUT one only need to read what the verses say, and easily the correct understanding can be ascertained => “WORD” existed (it does NOT say, “Jesus lived”) in the beginning. When taking 1Pe 1:20 into consideration alongside Joh 1:1, we learn that Jesus existed in God’s foreknowledge (cp. the expression “was foreknown”) … now, how does something or someone “exist” in someone’s knowledge or God’s foreknowledge? Not as a real living person, but as “thought, word”.

    Yes, Jesus existed in the form of “word” in God’s foreknowledge, God’s plan … in God’s “mind”. When the time was fulfilled (cp Gal 4:4) what had been “word” in God’s plan until that time became reality in that the “planned” human being was conceived and born by a woman.

    Similarly, any other verse that uses expressions which might seem to indicate that Jesus lived prior to his birth, can (and must) be understood in a manner which will be in harmony with the general truth mentioned above in my opening paragraph. Jesus did not live (not as a human being, not as any other type of living being, “angel” or “God”) prior to his birth … even though he existed in God’s plan in the form of “word, thought, concept”, etc.

  216. on 17 Jan 2013 at 10:44 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (215),

    Let me paraphrase that back to you to see if I understand it:

    “Because Jesus was a human being, his existence began at his conception in Mary’s womb, and any scriptural reference to him as active before that time is merely a reference to God’s plan for his life as a human being. Jesus himself did nothing, had nothing, and was nothing prior to his conception as a human being because He did not exist prior to that time.”

    Do I have this right? If not, please revise as necessary.

  217. on 17 Jan 2013 at 10:44 amTim (aka Antioch)

    I agree the pre-existence verses are confusing, but what makes most sense is exactly what Wolfgang said above. That, for me, harmonizes verses like Ephesians 1:3-5…

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

    That God had a plan for a Christ was revealed at the fall in Gen 3:15. We all existed in the mind of God from eternity. Otherwise, a literal interpretation would mean that we also pre-existed with God before the foundation of the world.

  218. on 17 Jan 2013 at 11:16 amWolfgang

    Mike (216)

    “Because Jesus was a human being, his existence began at his conception in Mary’s womb,

    correct …

    and any scriptural reference to him as active before that time is merely a reference to God’s plan for his life as a human being.

    (a) there are no scriptural references to him as active before that time
    (b) scriptural reference to the Messiah before that time refer to what God had in mind either in regards to what God would bring about or what Christ would accomplish as a human being

    Jesus himself did nothing, had nothing, and was nothing prior to his conception as a human being because He did not exist prior to that time.

    The person Jesus did not exist prior to his conception and birth …
    But, please note, in terms of God’s foreknowledge and prophecy, the Messiah had and did what God had planned for him already from the beginning and thus from before the foundation of the world. (Cp. references to his suffering from before the foundation of the world or the glory he had with God from before the foundation of the world.

    An illustration: An architect planned a glorious villa in 1990. 20 years later he finds a person who likes the plan and who builds the villa. The villa already “had glory with the architect” long before the actual construction process got started (that is, in the architect’s mind and plans and in terms of drawings and descriptions which the architect made). You would not claim that the actual villa already existed in 1990, just because I tell you that it “had glory with the architect” or “was foreseen by the architect” at that time. You would understand from the context of our conversation and the nature of buildings, plans, drawings, decriptions, etc. that the building did not exist as the actual glorious building already in 1990, but that it existed as word, thought, plan, drawing “with the architect” (that is, in his mind, in his drawn up plans, in his descriptions).

  219. on 17 Jan 2013 at 11:35 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (218),

    How then do you understand 2 Cor 8:9. That is, at what point in Jesus’ life did he go from rich to poor?

  220. on 17 Jan 2013 at 12:15 pmtimothy

    Tim (aka Antioch), wolfgang and Mike Gantt,

    That God had a plan for a Christ was revealed at the fall in Gen 3:15. We all existed in the mind of God from eternity. Otherwise, a literal interpretation would mean that we also pre-existed with God before the foundation of the world.

    Genesis 3: (kjv)
    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Galatians 3: (kjv)
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

  221. on 17 Jan 2013 at 12:22 pmJohn

    Wolfgang

    “there are no scriptural references to him as active before that time”

    Only because you refuse to see them, not because they are not there.

    Much of the problems with people today is that they establish their value and worth in the eyes of God from the doctrines they believe. Our value and worth in the eyes of God must be established through our understanding of the cross. Everything else just becomes an in house debate.

  222. on 17 Jan 2013 at 1:00 pmtimothy

    I do not know what your understanding of the cross is.

    Stauros is the Greek word and it does not mean two pieces of timber with one fastened on the horizontal.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stauros

    The cross actually has several figurative as well as actual meanings. The RCC has given us the image as an object to worship–the death of Jesus Christ. Some time there are pictures of their priest carrying a pole with a grostesk crusifix Jesus hanging from his out stretched hands. They seem to be worshiping the instrument that killed Jesus Christ, a cross.

    To the contrary, my familiarity with GODs word shows that we are to worship the alive, risen/resurected and transformed human being, our High Priest and King after the order of Melchizedek, Jesus Christ.

    Yes, christians are to take up their cross and so forth and how to do this is the topic of the NT to mbe Kingdom Ready.

    I am sure glad that GOD, and not all you all, will be judging me.

  223. on 17 Jan 2013 at 1:45 pmWolfgang

    Mike (219)

    How then do you understand 2 Cor 8:9. That is, at what point in Jesus’ life did he go from rich to poor?

    2Co 8:9 (NASB)
    9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

    My understanding would be that he became poor at the point when he decided to accept and carry out God’s (his Father’s) plan which required making himself of low esteem and a servant to mankind by giving his life as a ransom for many (cp Mk 10:44-45). As God’s only begotten Son, as the Messiah, he indeed was rich … yet he “emptied himself” and first became a servant and only later – after his resurrection – then received his riches to which he had an inheritance claim because of being the Almighty’s Son.

  224. on 17 Jan 2013 at 2:18 pmJohn

    Wolfgang

    Jesus’ testimony.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

    John the Baptist’s testimony.

    John 1:15 John spoke about him. He cried out, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘He comes after me, but he is greater than I am, because he existed before I was born.’”

    John the Baptist is not saying Jesus is greater than he because Jesus is greater than he. What he is saying is that Jesus is greater than he and existed before he did.

  225. on 17 Jan 2013 at 2:31 pmSarah

    John,

    John 1:15 John spoke about him. He cried out, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘He comes after me, but he is greater than I am, because he existed before I was born.’”

    What translation are you citing? eimi protos ego = was before me. It doesn’t use the word “born.”

    In any case, it’s the same principle as the infamous statement, “Before Abraham was, I am (he).” Pre-existence in Jewish culture meant something very different from Greek culture:

    “Rabbinic theology speaks of the Law, of God’s throne of glory, of Israel and of other important objects of faith, as things which had been created by God, and were already present with Him, before the creation of the world. The same is also true of the Messiah. It is said that his name was present with God in heaven beforehand, that it was created before the world, and that it is eternal. But the reference here is not to genuine pre-existence in the strict and literal sense. This is clear from the fact that Israel is included among these pre-existent entities….In Pesikta Rabbati 152b it is said that ‘from the beginning of the creation of the world the King Messiah was born, for he came up in the thought of God before the world was created.’ This means that from all eternity it was the will of God that the Messiah should come into existence, and should do his work in the world to fulfill God’s eternal saving purpose”

    Sigmund Mowinckel, He That Cometh, p. 334

  226. on 17 Jan 2013 at 2:39 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (223),

    You’re certainly entitled to think what you want, but, for my part, I struggle to identify any point in Jesus’ earthly life at which he could be described as rich and, after that, poor.

    I could most easily see how someone would describe him as poor throughout his life, given the humble circumstances in which he found himself, from his birth onward. On the other hand, I could see how someone might want to describe his life as rich throughout because of his special relationship with God, from his birth onward. In other words I can see how someone could describe him as physically poor and yet spiritually rich. What I can’t understand is how anyone could find a rich to poor transition in his earthly life.

    Are you really saying that this is what you see?

  227. on 17 Jan 2013 at 3:17 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Mike,

    I agree with Wolfgang. Jesus could call down legions of angels but he didn’t. He was able to create coins in the mouth of fish and feed thousands with just a handful of food. Therefore, access to wealth and material things was not any problem for him. But instead, he put aside that power and chose to do the will of his Father. For me, that explains Paul’s words.

  228. on 17 Jan 2013 at 3:19 pmJohn

    Sarah

    John 1:15 (NASB) John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

    John 1:15 (NKJV) John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

    John 1:15 (RSV) (John bore witness to him, and cried, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.’”)

    John 1:15 (WE) John talked about him. He called out saying, `Here is the man I told you about. I said that the one who is coming after me is greater than I am, because he lived before I lived.’

    John 1:15 (NCV) John tells the truth about him and cries out, saying, “This is the One I told you about: ‘The One who comes after me is greater than I am, because he was living before me.’”

    Again…John is not saying, Jesus ranks before me because Jesus ranks before me. What he is saying is, Jesus ranks before and was living before he was born.

    Listen to the testimony of Jesus….

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

  229. on 17 Jan 2013 at 3:54 pmMike Gantt

    Tim (aka Antioch) (227),

    So, your point is that “became poor” is an allusion to his crucifixion?

  230. on 17 Jan 2013 at 4:03 pmJas

    Mike,John
    He was rich because he was successor to the throne of Israel but chose to be a servant instead

  231. on 17 Jan 2013 at 4:40 pmMike Gantt

    Jas (230),

    I can see how qualifying as a successor to the throne of Israel might make a carpenter’s son from Nazareth potentially rich. But that’s not the same as his actually being rich.

  232. on 17 Jan 2013 at 4:53 pmJas

    Mike
    That is because you equate rich with wealth instead of status as King instead of servant . Even though he did not use his status he was still the legal king of Israel.

  233. on 17 Jan 2013 at 4:54 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Mike – yes, that makes sense to me. Poor, weak, needy – the lexicon I looked at uses those as synonyms for the underlying greek word.

  234. on 17 Jan 2013 at 5:23 pmSarah

    Mike,

    I find Ps 22 (a prophecy of the crucifixion) to be a good illustration of how Jesus became “poor”:

    Psa 22:6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people.

    Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;

    Psa 22:15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.

    It’s difficult to describe Jesus as being in a poor state at his baptism when God said “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.” Jesus went from experiencing the full favor of God at the beginning of his ministry to becoming an utter curse near the end of it. I would say that this is the voluntary transition from rich to poor Paul was referring to.

  235. on 17 Jan 2013 at 5:24 pmJohn

    If you believe the testimony of Jesus and John the Baptist regarding Jesus being in the presence of the Father before the world began and living before John was born then you will interpret the riches Jesus gave up as being the glory and majesty He had with His Father before the world began. If you don’t believe the testimony of Jesus and John then you won’t believe Jesus gave up the riches of His glory with Father when He took on sinful flesh and dwelt among us.

  236. on 17 Jan 2013 at 6:01 pmMike Gantt

    Sarah (234),

    Would you then say that Phil 2:6-7 is describing the same thing?

  237. on 17 Jan 2013 at 6:03 pmJas

    John
    You mean if we believe your interpretation of the testimony then we should have no reason to understand your interpretation of how Jesus was rich. If that was the only understanding standing in the way then MAYBE but it isnt

  238. on 17 Jan 2013 at 6:19 pmSarah

    Mike,

    Yes, I believe so. One thing that convinced me was Paul’s use of the phrase “emptied himself” in

  239. on 17 Jan 2013 at 6:21 pmSarah

    Browser error, sorry about that.

    Notice that Paul said Jesus “emptied himself” in Phil 2:6, and how well this corresponds to Ps 22:14 quoted earlier, “I am poured out like water”. In other words, he became poor by emptying himself of his very life.

  240. on 17 Jan 2013 at 7:01 pmMike Gantt

    Sarah (238 & 239),

    So you see Paul as speaking about Jesus in his earthly ministry as “being in the form of God” and “equal with God,” but giving up that equality by subjecting himself to the crucifixion as described by Ps 22?

  241. on 17 Jan 2013 at 8:12 pmJohn

    Philippians 2:5-7 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

    Jesus, by nature is God and by nature was equal with God but He made Himself of no reputation when He came in the likeness of man.

    God sent His own Son to be born in the likeness of sinful flesh.

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.

    Again….by the testimony of two witnesses.

    Jesus’ testimony.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

    John the Baptist’s testimony.

    John 1:15 John spoke about him. He cried out, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘He comes after me, but he is greater than I am, because he existed before I was born.’”

    John the Baptist is not saying Jesus is greater than he because Jesus is greater than he. What he is saying is that Jesus is greater than he and existed before he did.

    Lets get a little more detail from John the Baptist regarding where Jesus literally came from in which He testifies of what He has seen and heard while in heaven but no one receiving His testimony. Even today…

    John 3:30-32 He must increase, but I must decrease. He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.

    Testifying of what He has seen and heard would make no sense if His life only consisted of His birth in the manger.

  242. on 17 Jan 2013 at 8:18 pmJohn

    This surely is an epic battle…I love it.

    Maybe when the smoke clears the truth will be shinning brightly.

  243. on 17 Jan 2013 at 9:03 pmSheryl

    John…. en garde! (lol)

    Okay…so if Jesus was a likeness of God put into a fleshly sinful body, then #1, how could he possibly be called the Son of Man (human) and #2, how could he have truly been tempted to sin? Or rather, how can I, born a human, ever truly resist sin if even Jesus had to have a flesh robe to put over his spiritual self? When I consider Jesus being God, or God’s spirit in flesh, I can’t think of him being human, but some otherly creature. On the other hand, if I consider Jesus as just like me then the passage where it says Jesus was tempted so that we would know it’s possible to overcome temptation makes much more sense to me. The passage doesn’t say (like trinitarians say) that God (as Jesus) had to come to earth to be tempted so HE would know what’s it’s like….it says Jesus faced temptation so WE would know a human being can resist all temptation. See Heb 2: 18 and 4:15.

    I don’t know what translation you are using for John 1:15, but listen to this:

    John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'” NIV

    John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’” ESV

    John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. KJV

    Yohannan bore witness of him and cried, saying, “This was he of whom I spoke: ‘He that comes after me is preferred in honor before me, for he had priority over me.’ Aramaic

    The interlinear Greek translation (according to biblos.com) uses “he had precedence” because he was before me.

    So “before” doesn’t necessarily mean in time, but could mean in rank. And because of the word “precedence” I am led to go with rank. And just like John was prophecied to make the way ready for the Messiah….so the Messiah was prophecied to be “before” John. This also fits with the rest of the bible with no confusion.

    You almost got me with John 3:32 … but I think I can explain it. I like the Aramaic translation which is: And whatever he has seen and heard he testifies, and no one is receiving his testimony.

    John the Baptist knows the Hebrew bible very very well, I’m sure. So he knows all the prophecies about the coming Messiah. John knows that Jesus is going to testify throughout his time on earth and his words will not be received. It doesn’t seem farfetched for John to say this if Jesus indeed began his life from the manger. The Greek bears this out too. It’s like saying that you are testifying to what you read and study, but I will never accept it. Of course I don’t KNOW what will happen because OT prophecies haven’t been written about you and me. ….does that make any sense?

  244. on 17 Jan 2013 at 9:30 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    God is not a personal name for any one particular being, Satan is called the god of this world. The Bible also says there are many gods and many lords. The word God is just a title given to someone in authority. Some have the right to use the title while others do not have the right. There is only one who is true God and He is the Father but because the Angel of the LORD is of the Father He to is by nature God and since He became flesh in the person of Jesus that makes Jesus God by nature.

    It seems to me that your problem is not in understanding, but rather, belief. You can’t believe the Angel of God’s presence couldn’t manifest in human flesh. You say that would make Him more than human but would Jesus also be more than human since He was born without an earthly father?

    Temptation has it life in sinful flesh. When the Angel of His presence put on sinful flesh He also put on human temptations.

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.

    The man Jesus has His preexistence in the prophesies of the Old Testament as the seed of David but the Bright and Morning Star had glory and majesty in the presence of His Father before the world began.

    John the Baptist testifies of the life Jesus had before becoming flesh. He goes out of his way to speak in detail of the heavenly realm in which Jesus literally came from and how Jesus gave I witness testimony of what He saw and heard while in His heavenly majesty with His Father.

    John 3:30-32 He must increase, but I must decrease. He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

  245. on 17 Jan 2013 at 9:37 pmJohn

    Is Jesus a false God?

    (Hebrew 1:8-9) – But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    (John 20:28) – And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    (Isaiah 9:6) – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    (Matthew 1:23) – “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    (Luke 7:15-17) – So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother. Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” And this report about Him went throughout all Judea and all the surrounding region.

    (1 John 5:20) – We know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    (John 17:3) – This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

  246. on 17 Jan 2013 at 9:41 pmJas

    Is Jesus a false God?

    No but sadly yours is.

  247. on 17 Jan 2013 at 10:04 pmJohn

    Jas

    Now, Now be nice.

  248. on 17 Jan 2013 at 10:54 pmtimothy

    Fellow Humans,

    There are a lot of things to comment on. So please try to be forgiving and absorb all these little viewpoints.

    A lot of what is being written here looks like “brown noseing”, GOD and Jesus and the readers.

    Matthew 6: (kjv)
    Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

    2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

    4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

    5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

    At the same time, Christians are commanded to shine as lights and not cover their light with a basket. There is a lot of knowlege, being shared here with our group.

    Jesus started his life by receiving material wealth:
    “GOLD, frankincense and myrrh”.

    With this asset, his step father Joseph was able to move to another country and live until the “coast was clear” to return and live in nazareth region israel. Joseph was not a paulper.

    Jesus had a huge family of relatives of Judah and Livi tribes: Marys old man(aner) Joseph, his grand father and his great grand father Jacob and great, great grand father Matthan. To this add grand mother(a levite) , great grand mother, great, great grand mother and all the families of aunts and uncles and cousins.

    Jesus Christ, a human being, had a large living human family which even extened to his cousin, Elizabeth(a Levite) the mother of John the Baptest.

    These blood relatives surely knew who he was as the Meseiah and he had their clout. We do not know all the deatails, but some things are implied, mainly that his tep father had a carpenter shop and that Jesus is refered to as the carpenters son and as the carpenter.

    At around 30 year old Jesus began his ministry by being baptised by the baptest himself, his cousan John of Zacharias and Elizabeth.

    At this point Jesus appears to have left his worldly wealth and started relying of GOD, his heavenly father, to suply his needs.

    This point, to give up ones worldly Possessions, was exhorted by Jesus as a requirement to be one of his decipals. One example was the fishermen giving up ther fishing businesses.

    Mike Gantt:
    “What I can’t understand is how anyone could find a rich to poor transition in his earthly life.”

    Here it is, at least IMHO.

    Jesus, being a human being, with human nature was fortunent to have such a large family to educate, train, and develope the GODly character he learned from his righteous family and GODs word. He had some thirty odd years to become GODs word in his mind and when he received holy spirit at his water baptism by John, he took off like a sky rocket to carry out GODs plan for mankinds salvation. He became GODs word in action.

    All of us here are “human beings” and dealing with:

    1 Peter 5: (kjv)
    8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

    To add to our struggle we are commanded to change and be like Jesus Christ, is also a human being and was tempted in all ways as we are and gives us the strenght to overcome.

    You see, some here on KR believe *Jesus Christ is not GOD*. He is a human being too and we too, being human, can repent and copy Jesus another human being, and…..

    We can:

    Romans 12: (kjv)
    1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

    2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    IMHO, there is a glitch for the brain, when one thinks they are capable to be like GOD, while “Believing”, Jesus Christ is GOD. This is not only the epitome of elegance “IDOLTRY”, but a clever stumpling block and skandalon from our adversary.

    Maybe Wolfgang would explain what I am implying.

    John:

    Jesus, by nature is God and by nature was equal with God but He made Himself of no reputation when He came in the likeness of man.

    equal is the Greek word “isos” which means “equal but not the same”

    This should explain what the verse says or means:

    http://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/isosceles-triangle.html

    (P S my spell checher is not working)

    Timothy

  249. on 17 Jan 2013 at 10:59 pmJas

    John
    You ask a question then use verses that you have been shown to not mean what you claim.Personally I dont mind if you call the ascended and exalted Jesus a god,but remember that He also has a god who is God which makes Him a lessor god. I can use god to describe him just as Thomas because He is more than an angel but less than God. You need to understand just because the word theos is used that doesnt mean GOD but can mean god or even goddess .So being honest I gave you a honest answer and my opinion.

  250. on 17 Jan 2013 at 11:08 pmJohn

    Ever wonder what the Angel of God’s presence looked like?

    Daniel 10:4-6 Now on the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, that is, the Tigris, I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude.

    Ever wonder what Jesus looks like after retuning back into the Father’s presence just like it was before the world began?

    Revelation 1:12-15 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lamp stands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters.

  251. on 17 Jan 2013 at 11:17 pmJohn

    Jas

    However our finite minds want to understand Jesus as God we can’t deny He is God just like His Father is God lest He become a false God. If this is the case then we’re all in trouble.

    (Hebrew 1:8-9) – But about the Son YAHWEH says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    (John 20:28) – And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    (Isaiah 9:6) – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given…His name will be called…Wonderful…Mighty God…Everlasting Father…

    (Judges 13:18) – And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    (Matthew 1:23) – “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    (Luke 7:15-17) – So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother. Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has risen up among us”; and, “God has visited His people.” And this report about Him went throughout all Judea and all the surrounding region.

    (1 John 5:20) – We know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    (John 17:3) – This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

  252. on 18 Jan 2013 at 12:08 amSheryl

    John, Since I look like my mother I guess that means I am my mother? The descriptions you post are compelling, but not convincing when you take in all scripture. We only know what the prophets saw in their visions…

    You keep referring to the Bright and Morning Star … are you saying we should believe that Jesus was a “star” in heaven? I”m not being flippant…I really don’t know why you keep bringing that up as if it’s a clincher.

    1 John 5:20 … this has been “unpacked” earlier. It does NOT say Jesus is the true God and eternal life, in any translation.

    John 17:3 … yes, we must know the one true God AND his son. It doesn’t say you must know the one true God who is Jesus Christ.

    Can we make this really simple? If Jesus was God in the flesh, why didn’t he just say so? Is it because he really was who he said he was: The Son of Man and the Son of God? If he really was an angelic being….why does the bible say in human form he was lower than the angels, and after resurrection he was higher than the angels? Doesn’t that mean that he wasn’t an angel?

    Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

  253. on 18 Jan 2013 at 4:21 amWolfgang

    Mike (226)

    You’re certainly entitled to think what you want, but, for my part, I struggle to identify any point in Jesus’ earthly life at which he could be described as rich and, after that, poor.

    it’s not so much about “a particular point in Jesus’ earthly life” … nor should the understanding of “rich” be limited to material, financial “riches” …
    Several others have already pointed out how “rich” does have far more meaning than just “financial riches, material property, etc” …

    I could most easily see how someone would describe him as poor throughout his life, given the humble circumstances in which he found himself, from his birth onward. On the other hand, I could see how someone might want to describe his life as rich throughout because of his special relationship with God, from his birth onward. In other words I can see how someone could describe him as physically poor and yet spiritually rich. What I can’t understand is how anyone could find a rich to poor transition in his earthly life.

    As I mentioned previously … Jesus himself did NOT grasp for the riches he was entitled to as king but rather made himself poor in making himself a servant (cp Phi 2:5ff)

    IF this is not what the verses in question are speaking about, then what are they speaking about? How else was Jesus rich and became poor? Or, to use your wording, at what point of his life did he change from being rich to being poor? How do you understand 2Co 8:9 … without contradicting basic truths, such as human beings do not live prior to conception and birth in some other sphere as some other kind of being?

  254. on 18 Jan 2013 at 4:45 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (253),

    A human being is a combination of spirit and flesh.

    Gen 2:7 “Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”

    Jas 2:@6 “For just as the body without the spirit is dead…”

    If Jesus preexisted as a spirit (leaving aside for the moment whether he was God or an angel or some other kind of spirit) then all that would be necessary to make him a human being would be to clothe him with flesh.

    Thus 2 Cor 8:9 is simply referring to the fact that Jesus gave up spiritual status and wealth in heaven to become one of us on earth.

    Your notion that human beings do not have existence somewhere else before their existence on earth might be true, but it does not have to be true in the case of Jesus. Since he was unique in other ways, he can be unique in this way, too.

    Whether you think Jesus was human, or God, or both, or something else, there are too many scriptures which speak of his preexistence to dismiss the idea casually. Whether we think he preexisted is secondary; what seems undeniable is that the apostles thought he did.

  255. on 18 Jan 2013 at 5:33 amJohn

    Sheryl

    You say 1 John 5:20 has been unpacked already, maybe you should call the airlines because you probably got someone else’s luggage.

    1 John 5:20 (AMP) And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.

    1 John 5:20 (CEB) We know that God’s Son has come and has given us understanding to know the one who is true. We are in the one who is true by being in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (CJB) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment, so that we may know who is genuine; moreover, we are united with the One who is genuine, united with his Son Yeshua the Messiah. He is the genuine God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (DARBY) And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that [is] true; and we are in him that [is] true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (ERV) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding. So now we can know the one who is true, and we live in that true God. We are in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God, and he is eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (ESV) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (GNV) But we know that that Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind to know him, which is true, and we are in him that is true, that is, in that his Son Jesus Christ, the same is that very God, and that eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (GW) We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (GNT) We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we know the true God. We live in union with the true God—in union with his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and this is eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (HCSB) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know the true One. We are in the true One—that is, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NET) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NIRV) We also know that the Son of God has come. He has given us understanding. Now we can know the One who is true. And we belong to the One who is true. We also belong to his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God. He is eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NIV) We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NIVUK) We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NKJV) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NLV) We know God’s Son has come. He has given us the understanding to know Him Who is the true God. We are joined together with the true God through His Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and the life that lasts forever.

    1 John 5:20 (NLT) And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NRSV) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NRSVA) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NRSVACE) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (NRSVCE) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (RSV) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (RSVCE) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (TNIV) We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 (WE) We know that the Son of God has come. He has given us a heart to know him who is true. We belong to him who is true, because we belong to his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God. He has the life that will live for ever.

    1 John 5:20 (WYC) And we know, that the Son of God came in flesh, and gave to us wit, that we know him very God, and be in the very Son [Jesus] of him [and be in the very Son Jesus of him]. This is very God, and everlasting life.

    1 John 5:20 (YLT) and we have known that the Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ; this one is the true God and the life age-during!

  256. on 18 Jan 2013 at 5:38 amWolfgang

    Mike (254)

    A human being is a combination of spirit and flesh.

    Gen 2:7 “Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”

    Jas 2:@6 “For just as the body without the spirit is dead…”

    yes … but that is irrelevant for the matter under consideration! If not, then it would be relevant to all mankind (and not just Jesus)

    If Jesus preexisted as a spirit (leaving aside for the moment whether he was God or an angel or some other kind of spirit) then all that would be necessary to make him a human being would be to clothe him with flesh.

    IF that were so, then it would also be the case for all other human beings … or else, Jesus was NOT a true human being …are you proposing all humans pre-live as spirits and are just “clothed with flesh” to be made human beings?

    I would think that this is NOT what the Scriptures teach concerning human beings … Thus, I think that this idea of a Jesus “pre-living” prior to his birth as a spirit is NOT what the Scriptures teach concerning Jesus either.

    Thus 2 Cor 8:9 is simply referring to the fact that Jesus gave up spiritual status and wealth in heaven to become one of us on earth.

    See above …. then all human beings are doing the same thing as they give up their supposed “spiritual status and wealth in heaven” and decide to become a human being (“one of us on earth”) who – I suppose you believe – are all poor souls (having given up our wealth) ?

  257. on 18 Jan 2013 at 5:59 amWolfgang

    John,

    thanks for the long list of various translations of 1Jo 5:20.

    The question still ist, what did John mean with what he wrote and to what or who was he referring when he stated at the end of the verse “This is the true God” after having spoken just before this part of the verse about “Him who is true” and “His Son” …
    I would think that John would know that “Him Who is true” and “His Son” are not one and the same, but are two different and distinct Beings. I also think that John knew very well (which we can know from other passages of John’s writings) that John made a clear distinction between “God / true God” and “God’s Son” … do you really think John muddied them up and thought the Son (God’s Son) was His own Father (the true God) ?

  258. on 18 Jan 2013 at 6:04 amJohn

    Sheryl

    “Since I look like my mother I guess that means I am my mother?”

    Since you look like your mother it’s important for us to get a closer look to see who you really are…

    Lets take a closer look…

    Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David and the Bright and Morning Star.”

    The flesh of Jesus is the seed of King David through Mary’s lineage but He is also the Bright and Morning Star who put on the flesh.

    Philippians 2:6-7 (NLV) Jesus has always been as God is. But He did not hold to His rights as God. He put aside everything that belonged to Him and made Himself the same as a servant who is owned by someone. He became human by being born as a man.

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.

    The Bright and Morning Star or Angel of the Lord has a name, He is called Wonderful.

    Judges 13:18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    Jesus or the seed of David has a name, He is called Wonderful.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; His name will be called Wonderful…

    Now you know His Son’s name so you can answer the big question.

    Proverbs 30:4 Who has ever gone up to heaven and come back down? Who gathered the winds in his hand? Who can gather up all the water in his lap? Who set the limits for the world? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name? Do you know?

    Notice the glory of the Bright and Morning Star.

    Daniel 10:4-6 Now on the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, that is, the Tigris, I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me in your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.

    Notice Jesus returned to His former glory, which He had with His Father before becoming flesh and dwelling among us.

    Revelation 1:12-15 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lamp stands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters.

    Well, you look like your mom but you are not your mom but that does not mean you are not a mom.

  259. on 18 Jan 2013 at 6:24 amJohn

    Wolfgang

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment, so that we may know who is genuine; moreover, we are united with the One who is genuine, united with his Son Yeshua the Messiah. He is the genuine God and eternal life.

    What did John mean? Did John mean that Jesus was God? Well lets ask him, lets hear his thoughts and testimony.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Revelation 1:7-9 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

    Sorry…Zechariah just slipped in there by accident.

  260. on 18 Jan 2013 at 6:39 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (256)

    Your argument hangs on your definition of a human being rather than on the Scriptures. That is, you define a human being as someone who could have no existence prior to his birth. Then, having used the Scriptures to establish that Jesus was a human being, you say, by your definition rather than by the Scriptures, that Jesus could not have preexisted. Thus you have a circular argument.

    To wit:

    P1: Human beings can’t preexist.
    P2: Jesus was a human being.
    C: Jesus cannot have preexisted.

    Your argument is circular because to conclude that Jesus could not have preexisted, you first assume that human beings who preexist cannot for that reason be human beings.

    Your way out of the dilemma would be to show that the Scriptures teach that preexistence disqualifies someone from becoming human.

  261. on 18 Jan 2013 at 7:47 amWolfgang

    Mike (260)

    Your argument hangs on your definition of a human being rather than on the Scriptures. That is, you define a human being as someone who could have no existence prior to his birth.

    not quite … my definition of a human being is taken from all I can read about in Scripture about human beings … and as far as I can read, Scripture does NOT teach that human beings live prior to their conception and birth somewhere in heaven as spirits.
    What definition for “human being” are you using? Are you seriously suggesting that human beings do live in heaven as “rich spirits” prior to their conception and birth when they become “poor humans” ?

    Your way out of the dilemma would be to show that the Scriptures teach that preexistence disqualifies someone from becoming human.

    Not so … YOU are the one who needs to establish from Scripture that human beings live as rich spirits in heaven prior to their conception and birth when they are clothed with “human flesh” and become “poor humans”.

    I tend to think that you will deny that all humans pre-live as spirits in heaven before their conception and birth …
    I tend to think that you will also deny that all humans pre-live as “rich” spirits in heaven and then become “poor” humans …
    If that be so, then Jesus could not have “pre-lived” as a spirit / rich spirit in heaven prior to his conception and birth either … or else you will have to insist that Jesus was not really a human being …
    Which is it ?

  262. on 18 Jan 2013 at 8:25 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Heute bin Ich jetz ein un siebzig.

    # 257

    John 14: (kjv)
    10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    1 John 5: (kjv)
    20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

    Timothy

  263. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:05 amWolfgang

    Timothy

    happy birthday!

  264. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:28 amJohn

    Wolfgang

    Spirit/mind + flesh = human

    1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

    Jesus says the flesh profits nothing.

    John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

    Jesus was a spiritual being in the presence of His Father prior to becoming flesh in a space of time.

    John 6:62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

    Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

    Jesus had memory of His time in the glories of heaven with His Father.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    John 3:31-33 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.

    Jesus was looking for to His return to be back with His Father in heavenly glory.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    You don’t believe any of this because since you believe a spiritual body cannot become a fleshly then you must also believe a fleshly body cannot become a spiritual body.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

  265. on 18 Jan 2013 at 11:39 amTim (aka Antioch)

    John,

    I would be more convinced if the synoptic gospels paralleled John’s gospel on the pre-existence and Godhood of Jesus, but they don’t. Why not? Perhaps it is because John’s gospel has been read literally when John was speaking figuratively? Given John’s poetic style, I think that is likely. After all, his thesis in Jn 20:31 – “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” If John was trying to tell us Jesus is God, he sure confuses the matter with that verse. On the contrary, he says here (and it seems very clear) that life is believing Jesus it the Messiah and Son of God. Now THAT reconciles with the synoptics.

  266. on 18 Jan 2013 at 12:28 pmJohn

    Tim

    John did identify Jesus as God, as well as, the Son of God but the important thing for God’s to come to know and believe is Jesus as the promised Messiah. Remember, even YAHWEH Himself identified Jesus as His Son, as well as, God.

  267. on 18 Jan 2013 at 1:48 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    John – big difference between god and God. I don’t see any clear labeling of Jesus as God by John. On the contrary, in John 10:34-36, Jesus rebukes the pharisees who claimed he was making himself equal with God. Jesus says instead he is God’s son. Therefore, Son of God does not equal God and therefore Jesus is not God. Or, did he lie to the pharisees?

  268. on 18 Jan 2013 at 4:24 pmJohn

    Tim

    Did Jesus really rebuke them? No…

    The Bible teaches us that Jesus is God, even YAHWEH calls Jesus, God.

    Lets read what Jesus said in context.

    John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

    Remember, God is title given to one in authority. People in times past who spoke for God were also given the title, God, and Scripture can’t be broken. All Jesus said was that God was His Father and they wanted to stone Him. Why? Because they understood that to be the Son of God means you are by nature, God.

    This was not the first time they wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to be God.

    John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.

    You also have to remember that Jesus never really spoke clearly. He always spoke in parables to confuse those who didn’t really want the truth.

    Matthew 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

    Luke 8:10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.’

    Mark 4:34 But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.

    Matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them.

    This is why when you want to know the mysteries of God or the deeper things of God you need to search the Scriptures, here a little and there a little. When you do that you will see the Bible identifying Jesus as God.

  269. on 18 Jan 2013 at 4:36 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (261),

    You said:

    “my definition of a human being is taken from all I can read about in Scripture about human beings … and as far as I can read, Scripture does NOT teach that human beings live prior to their conception and birth somewhere in heaven as spirits.
    What definition for “human being” are you using? Are you seriously suggesting that human beings do live in heaven as “rich spirits” prior to their conception and birth when they become “poor humans” ?”

    If a human being can ultimately become a heavenly being by resurrection, what is so strange about a heavenly being initially becoming a human being by conception?

    I am not making any broad statement about human beings; you are the one doing that. What I am doing is acknowledging that there are more than a few verses in the New Testament which give reason to believe that the apostles considered Jesus – whatever they thought of his ontology – to have existed before his earthly life. I think for you to try to override that by saying you are unaware of Scripture teaching “that human beings live prior to their conception on earth…” is avoiding the issue. The apostles don’t imply that Jesus was a human being before his human conception – just that he existed before his conception.

  270. on 18 Jan 2013 at 6:16 pmJohn

    Mike Gantt

    “The apostles don’t imply that Jesus was a human being before his human conception – just that he existed before his conception.”

    Excellent point!!! The Bible is clear in that I speak of Jesus having some form of existence prior to becoming flesh and dwelling among us. To me, I see the Angel of the LORD as a tangible manifestation YAHWEH’s word.

    We read in John how the word was with God and was God beging equal with God by nature but not by authority. A manifestation is never greater than that which it manifests nor is one who is sent greater then He who sends.

    The one who manifests as God came to His own but the did not receive Him. This same one became flesh and dwelt among us. He is identified as the tangible word of life and has being with the Father from the beginning. Listen to how John explains how he was able to touch, hear and see that which was known as the word in the Old Testament.

    1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

    This amazing testimony of John does not speak only of Jesus’ birth in a manger, but rather, he speak of Him who was with the Father from the beginning.

    Jesus was defiantly with the Father in the beginning and saw Him with His own eyes.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    Jesus was defiantly with the Father before taking on sinful flesh and was desiring to return to the Father like it was before the world began.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

  271. on 18 Jan 2013 at 7:54 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    John,

    Did Jesus really rebuke them? No…

    I beg to differ. In 10:33, pharisees claim he is blaspheming because he claims to be God. In 10:35 Jesus asks why they are claiming blasphemy when he says he is God’s son? If Son of God = God then to the pharisees, it would be no different to claim to be either one. So why would Jesus bother to make the distinction if they meant the same thing? Sure looks like a rebuke to me.

    Re: John 5:18, that is a different claim than 10:33. If you claim you are equal with God, it means, to me, that you are not God but claiming to be on the same level as God. Then again, Jesus rebukes them as well and says he can do nothing of himself. Someone equal to God would say such a thing? And explicitly he says elsewhere that the Father is greater than he.

    It seems clear to me that tradition has taught that Jesus is God and not the bible, though I admit that translational bias has clouded that quite a bit. I also think you really haven’t looked into the counters for your proof texts available at the websites that I and others have mentioned earlier.

  272. on 18 Jan 2013 at 8:40 pmJohn

    Why is it important so Satan that we reject the preexistence of Jesus?

    Because a Jesus who didn’t have glory with His Father before becoming flesh is a different Jesus. With this Satan is able to do away with God’s Law.

    Let me explain.

    When Jesus says, “If you love me, keep my commandments” people don’t look back to Mt.Sinai because they don’t believe Jesus was the one on Mt.Sinai giving the commandments because He wasn’t even born yet. This is a great deception.

    Listen.

    We know that YAHWEH has manifested His word in a tangible way through the Angel of His presence all throughout the Old Testament. John picks up on this in John 1:1-3.

    John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

    John 1 verses 1 through 13 is the Angel of the LORD before He became flesh and dwelt among us. It’s not until verse 14 that He becomes flesh.

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    This same Angelic manifestation of the word of God is the same Being who gave the oracles of God to Moses on Mt.Sinai.

    Acts 7:38 This is Moses that was in the Congregation, in the wilderness with the Angel, which spake to him in mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the lively oracles to give unto us.

    Who was this Angel on Mt.Sinai? It was the same Angel that led Israel out of Egypt.

    Exodus 20 And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “You shall have no other gods before Me….

    Remember, God is speaking through His Angel…Acts 7:38.

    Now who led Israel out of Egypt? The Angel of the LORD did.

    Judges 2:1-2 Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this?

    So you see, it’s of great importance to Satan that you reject these things so he can do away with the Ten Commandments. Because of this, what we see today in the Christian faith is a belief system built on love for God and love for man with no definition of what godly love is.

    Romans 13:8-9 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    The Ten Commandments define what godly love is and what righteousness looks like at its basic level. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in God’s Law. The first four teach us how to love God and the last six teach us how to love others. Take away the Law and would you have is a private interpretation of what love and righteousness is. As a result, we now have homosexual weddings, gay and lesbian pastors, idols and the worship of other gods (sports, musicians and so on), we disregarded the seventh day Sabbath which was blessed and called holy as part of creation itself and of which Jesus is Lord of.

    This has happened because false prophets have come teaching that the Ten Commandments are done away with. As a result of this God’s Law is taken out of His creation causing lawlessness to abound resulting in the love of many to grow cold.

    Matthew 24:11-13 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

    Jesus came to be our example. He kept His Father’s commandments, if He didn’t He would not be our Savior. We must place our faith in Jesus and His teaching and do likewise. Faith does not do away with the Ten Commandments, it upholds them.

    Romans 3:31 Does this mean that by this faith we do away with the Law? No, not at all; instead, we uphold the Law.

    These are the two things that God is looking for in His people, to keep the Ten Commandments (the oracles of God) and continue believing in Jesus.

    Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

    Acts 7:38 “This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us.

    1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak according to the oracles of God. If any man minister, let him do it according to the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

  273. on 18 Jan 2013 at 8:45 pmtimothy

    Sarah and Tim,

    hendiadys

    Hendiadys is a figure of speech used for emphasis — “The substitution of a conjunction for a subordination”. The basic idea is to use two words linked by a conjunction to express a single complex idea.

    Expressing a single idea by two nouns instead of a noun and its qualifier. A method of amplification that adds force

    QUOTE “The specific figure of speech is called hendiadys. Literally, the figure hendiadys means “one by means of two.” Whenever two words are used but only one idea intended, it is the figure hendiadys. One of the two words expresses the fact and the other intensifies it to the superlative degree, thus making the statement especially emphatic. This figure gives considerable cogency to an expression. When Thomas exclaimed “my Lord and my God,” he was observing the resurrected Christ as “my godly lord.” The word “lord” expresses the fact and the word “godly” intensifies “lord” to the superlative degree. Indeed my godly lord is exactly what Jesus Christ is!” QUOTE

    Thomas addresses … a grammatical construction called “hendiadys” where a single concept is is expressed by two synonyms linked by the conjunction “and”.

    John20: (kjv)
    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    ***And Thomas answered him and said unto him. my godly Lord.***

    Figures of speech are like FLAGS marking important verses.

    Timothy

  274. on 18 Jan 2013 at 8:53 pmJohn

    Tim

    The words, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)” reveal more to what Jesus meant than what you think He meant.

    Now lets see what the rest of the Bibles says about Jesus being God.

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

  275. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:02 pmSheryl

    It seems to me that much of your interpretation hinges on the gospel writer John’s “word” being Jesus. But the Greek is “logos” and you have to assume that John means Jesus. But you can also read that verse as the word/logos being a “plan.” And for many of us, that interpretation fits better with the entire bible.

    Have you studied church history, or the many councils that finally decided how the gospel would be preached? Do you know how Helenism was enmeshed with the gospel? It is entirely probable that many verses were tweaked here and there to force a viewpoint that the gospel writers didn’t necessarily mean. So I don’t buy that the disciples were convinced Jesus was pre-existent in any form. I don’t read that at all. However I can see that a cursory reading, along with a mindset already believing that Jesus was a conscious pre-existent entity, could come away with feeling vindicated in their “proof verses.” And I would believe the same thing if it weren’t for the other verses than plainly contradict the idea that Jesus existed before he was born. Especially the verses that purposely deny Jesus being any kind of angel. Those verses force us to look at your “proof verses” a little more closely.

    And by making Jesus God, you are either creating a second God (it is abundantly obvious that there is a father AND a son….two persons) or making the man Jesus inconsequential. IE…if Jesus is really God in flesh….just who exactly is Jesus the man? And to have it both ways you have to give this man two natures…and at that instant he ceases to be a human being. If Jesus existed before he was begotten, he also ceases to be a human being. However, if Jesus was a man who was so full of God’s spirit that he was the perfect image of God…then ALL the scriptures remain unbroken.

    If Jesus wanted to make it clear that he was a human being and not an angel, he would have referred to himself as human. And he did! Why else would he call himself Son of Man? Timothy sure didn’t think Jesus was an “angel” of God: “For God is One, and The Mediator of God and the sons of men is One: The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah”

  276. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:05 pmSheryl

    John…how come you never post the verse following Heb 1:8:

    “You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

    by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

    How do you figure that God HAS a God?

  277. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:14 pmSheryl

    Just wondering…. do you think Jesus said this?

    And God spoke all these words:

    2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

    3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

    4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    or do you think Jesus was Yahweh in this: Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:

    Or do you think Jesus was talking about himself here: Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD.

  278. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:16 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    God is a title, not a personal name. The Father is God above all and Jesus, being His Son, is by nature God also. The Father Himself tells us this.

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    Satan has the title god as well but we don’t want to worship or obey him.

    Now as far are the word (logos) goes. John says the word was with God and the word was God. He came to His own but they rejected Him. He became flesh and dwelt among us and they beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

  279. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:25 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    I think YAHWEH manifests His words through the Angel of the LORD, also known as, the Angel of His presence. The Angel of His presence indicates to us that the Angel of the LORD is the presence of YAHWEH in time and space.

    When people interacted with the Angel of His presence they understood that it was YAHWEH they were interacting with. They even, as a form of worship, offered sacrifice to Him and He accepted it.

    To ask me how the mechanics of all this works I couldn’t tell you all I can do is read what is written and compare it with the rest of Scripture. I can’t even tell you how it can happen or what it’s going to be like coming out of the grave to meet the Lord in the air but I know it’s going to happen from what I read and compare in the Scriptures.

  280. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:28 pmJas

    Timothy
    You can not read the greek of John20:28 as godly lord ,why not try to understand that Thomas called Jesus a god not God. If you are going to accept John then you have to accept the greek it was written in. As I mention at the beginning of comments to the post that the hebrew religion was not monotheistic and rabbinical judaism was not and still are not. They believe that there was a lessor YHWH that was visible but both were strict unitarian when it came to the invisible YHWH who was the Most High and the Creator.
    The use of the title Most High God and the command to have no other gods before me should tell the tell there were other gods. Throughout the OT YHWH declares his supremacy over the other gods by stating they were not able to do anything unless he ordained it,therefore they were nothing compared. If Jesus preexisted as a god then he was nothing too

  281. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:32 pmSarah

    Timothy,

    In response to post #273 – that’s certainly another reasonable interpretation of John 20:28. I lean toward the interpretation that Thomas is acknowledging two individuals (Jesus and God), based on the Greek grammar as described on the trinity delusion website. But you’ve presented a viable alternative.

  282. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:39 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    FYI:

    http://rhetoric.byu.edu/figures/groupings/by%20author/bullinger.htm

    Timothy

  283. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:47 pmJas

    Timothy
    If the greek was my lord and god then maybe it could read that way but it reads as lord of mine and god of mine, both lord and god being possessed by the greek word mou which means my,mine or me.

  284. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:49 pmDoubting Thomas

    I agree Sheryl,
    Y’shua is recorded as saying that he is “the son of man” about 100 times or so in the bible. Y’shua and the writers of the bible were definitely emphasizing his humanity. Not once does it say anything about Y’shua being “God the Son”. That is just a man made (Greek) idea that was adopted later on after the apostles were long gone. If the apostles had believed that Y’shua was in reality “God the Son”, or that Y’shua had pre-existed as some sort of supernatural being. Then they would have believed him when he repeatedly said that he would be raised back to life in 3 days. The apostles didn’t even believe the eyewitnesses that saw the risen Christ.

    Mark 16:14 (ESV), “Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.”

    I think this clearly shows that they thought of Y’shua as being completely human, and not some sort of supernatural being (or God Man) that pre-existed before he was born to Mary…

  285. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:58 pmtimothy

    Doubting Thomas,

    Wow, I never noticed his reproofing the deciples for their unbelief.

    Shows how much we need each other in our quest for renewing our minds.

    Also how much human we are, compared with Jesus and his deciples.

    Timothy

  286. on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:09 pmJohn

    Doubting Thomas

    You sure are leaving a lot of scriptural facts out of your conclusions. But hey, if you choose to see only one side of the coin that’s your right.

    By the way, who raised Jesus’ dead body from the grave? Was it YAHWEH? Was it the Spirit of YAHWEH? Or was it Jesus? Maybe all three had a piece of the action? Hmmm!

    Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

    John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

    Just a side note, who is it that raised Jesus from the dead? The reason why I ask is because He is the same one who is going to raise you from the dead.

    John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

    There sure seems to be a blending of powers.

  287. on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:15 pmtimothy

    John,

    Do you believe “once saved always saved”?

    Timothy

  288. on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:33 pmJohn

    Tim

    No.

  289. on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:41 pmtimothy

    John,

    http://godskingdomfirst.org/OnceSaved.htm

    Timothy

  290. on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:44 pmSheryl

    Since “God” is a title I will say Yahweh for who we commonly call God the Father, and Jesus for God’s human son. And I firmly believe that scripture demands we count them as two individuals…The Father and The Son…Yahweh and Jesus.

    I believe that when Jesus died (and if he was re-incarnated from another spiritual life…what kind of “death” is that?) only Yahweh could resurrect him. When Jesus said destroy this temple and I will raise it up…to me it’s like lying in bed with strep throat and saying, “I may be sick now, but so many days I will raise this body up!” But it’s the penicillin that heals me….I don’t rely on myself. I have to be given health by an outside source so I can raise my body up. And so Jesus is given renewed life by Yahweh. If Jesus is truly dead as we understand what death is, then he is dead and can’t do anything, let alone give himself back life.

    Actually, that was one of the sticking points that I couldn’t get around when I was a trinitarian. How can Yahweh die (which would break scripture right then and there) and then raise himself up? Either he didn’t really die….or he isn’t really Yahweh.

    Of course there’s a “blending of powers” as you say. Jesus has been GIVEN all authority to act on Yahweh’s behalf. If my dad gives me authority to run his company when he’s on vacation, I have the power to hire and fire, buy and sell…and being in dad’s perfect will I would only do what I know he would approve of. My employees treat me like they treated my dad…but they know I am the child. And when dad gets home I hand the company back over to him… sorta like: “Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.”

  291. on 18 Jan 2013 at 11:16 pmJohn

    1 John 3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

    Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

    A dying declaration is very valuable.

    Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

    The Angel of God’s presence is the image of the invisible God in the same way, Jesus is the image of the invisible God.

    Colossians 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

    John 1:1-16 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. The Word Made Flesh And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

    Isaiah 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.

    Malachi 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

    Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

  292. on 18 Jan 2013 at 11:25 pmJohn

    Sheryl

    They are two individuals…

    When God gives Jesus all authority that makes Jesus God too in light of everything and everyone else….accept God the Father who gave Jesus all authority.

    1 Corinthians 15:24-27 Next, at the end of the world, Christ will give His holy nation over to God the Father. Christ will have destroyed every nation and power. Christ must be King until He has destroyed all those who hate Him and work against Him. The last thing that will be destroyed is death. The Holy Writings say that God has put all things under Christ’s feet except Himself.

  293. on 19 Jan 2013 at 1:57 amWolfgang

    hi

    how come folks don’t realize that the idea of a “literal pre-existence” (a pre-living) of Jesus basically was introduced by church fathers who explored the idea of Jesus being “more than a human”, that is “Jesus is God” ?
    The doctrine of “Jesus’ pre-existence” came about and was needed and used in support of “Jesus = God”. Without such a “pre-existence” doctrine there could be no “Jesus = God” doctrine.

    I find it almost strange that some do realize that the “Jesus=God” doctrine is a false doctrine, but then for some strange reason they hold on to the “Jesus pre-existed” doctrine which is nothing but a support doctrine for the “Jesus=God” doctrine …

  294. on 19 Jan 2013 at 3:21 amWolfgang

    Mike

    If a human being can ultimately become a heavenly being by resurrection, what is so strange about a heavenly being initially becoming a human being by conception?

    I am not making any broad statement about human beings; you are the one doing that.

    well, you sure are making a general statement about human beings just above … since any human being believing on Christ can – as you call it here – “become a heavenly being by resurrection”

    or do you want to say that your logic does not apply to any human being but only to Jesus (who would then not really be a “true” human being as other human beings are?

    What I am doing is acknowledging that there are more than a few verses in the New Testament which give reason to believe that the apostles considered Jesus – whatever they thought of his ontology – to have existed before his earthly life. I think for you to try to override that by saying you are unaware of Scripture teaching “that human beings live prior to their conception on earth…” is avoiding the issue.

    I am not avoiding any issue, I am making clear that there is a distinction between “exist” and “live” (which you seem to equate)!

    I have in my initial reply post to your comment stated at the very beginning that indeed Jesus “pre-existed” … as “word, thought” in God’s plan and God’s foreknowledge (cp Joh 1:1ff and 1Pe 1:20) However, Jesus – as is the case with any other human being as well – did not “pre-LIVE” prior to his conception and birth. Thus, any references to a “pre-existence” of Jesus are speaking about his “pre-existence” (NOT about any “pre-living”) as part of God’s plan. Interpreting such references otherwise, as if Jesus already “pre-lived” are contradicting what Scripture teaches about both human beings in general as well as Jesus in particular!

    “Jesus=God” proposers developed such a contradictory doctrine by misinterpreting “word [logos]” in Joh 1:1ff as referring to “a living and acting ‘God-person’ who existed in the beginning” … and they did so. because without a “pre-living” Jesus they can hardly insist that Jesus=God.

    The apostles don’t imply that Jesus was a human being before his human conception – just that he existed before his conception.

    Indeed … they certainly did not imply that Jesus was a human being prior to his conception and birth, for anybody will know that such an idea is plain stupidity. They also knew that it is just as erroneous to imply that a human being pre-lives their conception and birth as some other kind of “living being /person” !!
    I would think that they also knew (for example, from Jesus’ teachings as well as from what they may have learned as children being taught by their parents) from the OT scriptures, that the man of the line of Abraham and David who would be the Messiah had been part of God’s plan from the beginning, thus had been as “thought, word” in God’s mind and His foreknowledge … and this is what they then taught and wrote.

  295. on 19 Jan 2013 at 5:17 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (293 and 294),

    well, you sure are making a general statement about human beings just above … since any human being believing on Christ can – as you call it here – “become a heavenly being by resurrection”

    I’m not making a broad statement about human beings that cannot be supported by Scripture.  On the contrary, it is well-supported by Scripture that raised human beings dwell in heaven.  You don’t believe you’re going to heaven when you die?

    or do you want to say that your logic does not apply to any human being but only to Jesus (who would then not really be a “true” human being as other human beings are?

    Again, you are operating without scriptural support on your own definition of a “true” human being which says that preexistence is impossible – even as some other kind of being.  But even if it were, aren’t all things possible with God?

    I am not avoiding any issue, I am making clear that there is a distinction between “exist” and “live” (which you seem to equate)!

    Such a distinction might be able to explain away some of the preexistence scriptures, but not the ones that speak of Christ being active in that preexistence (e.g. 1 Cor 8:6; Phil 2:6-7; Heb 1:2, 10; Col 1:16; John 1:3,10; Mic 5:2) before his earthly life.

    There is, however, something more important at stake than whether or not Jesus preexisted, and that is that Jesus is now Lord.  Whether we think he preexisted or not, whether we think he is God or human, our responsibility is to regard him as Lord, is it not? If you think he’s God, could you obey him any less if it turned out he was human?  If you think he’s human, could you obey him any more if it turned out he was God?

    Calling Jesus Lord means that we should do what he says (Luke 6:46) – and that has nothing to do with his ontology, eh?

     

  296. on 19 Jan 2013 at 7:25 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Thank you for your gebortstagwunsch gestern.(263)

    Funny thing, I and you might as well be posting in German, because these fellows shine to not even read the, sometimes, labor intensive post we make.

    I still sometimes wonder what the point is in makeing a long, long, xtra long series of some 32 diferent versions translations of a verse.(255)

    Then I remembered while we were learning how to rightly divide GODs word, there was a guy that just could not under stand simple kjv or niv so he bough a box full of different versions at a junk book store, and would frantially read in many version and still not understand what is written, where it is written, to whom it was not written, UZW.

    I remember, also, learning that there is no verb “to be” in Herbrew and that actually two words make up the “Tetramagen”, one being
    “I is(I am)”.
    So look at this series of verses with Luthers translation included.

    John 8: (kjv) with (1545 Luther)
    50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
    50 Ich suche nicht meine Ehre; es ist aber einer, der sie sucht, und richtet.
    *
    GOD does seek glory and Jesus did not seek his own glory.

    51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    51 Wahrlich, wahrlich ich sage euch: So jemand mein Wort wird halten, der wird den Tod nicht sehen ewiglich.
    *
    Matthew 13: (kjv)
    23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
    *
    HUAHB=hear understand accept hold fast bear fruit
    *
    This man will perservere the race and receive the reward=resurrection

    52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
    52 Da sprachen die Juden zu ihm: Nun erkennen wir, daß du den Teufel hast. Abraham ist gestorben und die Propheten, und du sprichst: “So jemand mein Wort hält, der wird den Tod nicht schmecken ewiglich.”
    *
    not taste death for eternity(destroyed in the lake of fire)

    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    53 Bist du denn mehr als unser Vater Abraham, welcher gestorben ist? Und die Propheten sind gestorben. Was machst du aus dir selbst?
    *
    just who in the world do you think that you are?

    54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
    54 Jesus antwortete: So ich mich selber ehre, so ist meine Ehre nichts. Es ist aber mein Vater, der mich ehrt, von welchem ihr sprecht, er sei euer Gott;
    *
    Your GOD, my father, he gives me my honor.

    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
    55 und kennet ihn nicht, ich aber kenne ihn. Und so ich würde sagen: Ich kenne ihn nicht, so würde ich ein Lügner, gleichwie ihr seid. Aber ich kenne ihn und halte sein Wort.
    *
    I know him, you do not and lie, and hold his word.

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
    56 Abraham, euer Vater, ward froh, daß er meinen Tag sehen sollte; und er sah ihn und freute sich.
    *
    Abraham, your father, rejoiced that he could imagine my day coming.
    *
    same princable that John 1:1 has with GOD imagineing what here was going to talk into being(This is a figure of speech known as *Condescensio*. This is God condescending to reveal Himself within the sphere of His creatures’ experience.

    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    57 Da sprachen die Juden zu ihm: Du bist noch nicht fünfzig Jahre alt und hast Abraham gesehen?
    *
    Yeah Jesus, sure, Abraham live a long, long time ago and you are not even a full grown man yet and have seen him.

    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    58 Jesus sprach zu ihnen: Wahrlich, wahrlich ich sage euch: Ehe denn Abraham ward, bin ich.
    I was taught by Dr Who/Will that Jesus actually said “I was befor Abraham” or “Abraham was befor, I is”.(OT Hebrew)

    59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
    *
    1 Corinthians 10: (kjv)
    13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    John 8: (NASB)
    7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U-H3hPYBmA

    Timothy

  297. on 19 Jan 2013 at 7:32 amJohn

    Angels are called, sons of God and morning stars.

    Job 38:4-7 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    A son is one who is born or came out from his father. As a son, he carries his father name.

    The Angel of His presence is God’s mediator in time and space. He, being God’s firstborn Son, carries the Father’s name. As God’s representative, when He speaks it’s God speaking through Him. Listen and read carefully.

    Exodus 23:20-22 “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.

    Notice they were commanded to obey His voice and do all that God was speaking. The Angel of the LORD is YAHWEH’s firstborn Son in all creation.

    The Angel of the LORD is God’s firstborn Son in all creation. He was the image of the invisible God before becoming flesh and after becoming flesh. Through Him and for Him YAHWEH created all things.

    Colossians 1:15-16 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    The Angel of the LORD gave all this up when YAHWEH sent Him, His firstborn Son, to take on sinful flesh and dwell among us.

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.

    The man Jesus is fully human as the promised Messiah and the seed of David. But He is also the Angel of God’s presence as the Bright and Morning Star.

    Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David and the Bright and Morning Star.”

    As the Bright and Morning Star, He glory with His Father in heaven and personally saw the Father with His own eyes.

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    His desire was to return to His former glory that He had with His Father even before the world began.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Isaiah capture all this in one verse. Listen, Jesus is the Son who was born just over 2000 years ago but He is also the Angel of the LORD, as God’s firstborn Son of all creation, who was given. The Angel of the LORD has a name, Wonderful, Jesus is called, Wonderful. He is also called, Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Pretty impressive list and yet He is still a man in sinful flesh.

    YAHWEH is invisible and dwells in eternity. In His love for His creation, He interacts with us through a mediator in time and space. The Angel of the LORD is God’s firstborn Son of all creation. He has reached out to His creation and redeemed His creation and loved His creation through Him. But they didn’t receive Him.

    Isaiah 63:8-10 For He said, “Surely they are My people, children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; so He turned Himself against them as an enemy, and He fought against them.

    John recaps this.

    John 1:-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. The Word Becomes Flesh and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

  298. on 19 Jan 2013 at 8:18 amtimothy

    John,

    You seem to profess to know all there is about angels, so would you explain about the following scriptures…thank you.

    Is this witten about an angel?:

    Isaiah 14: (kjv)
    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    *
    Who were these sons of GOD?:

    Job 38: (kjv)
    7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    *
    And who are these “sons of GOD”?

    Genesis 6: (kjv)
    4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
    *
    What did these angels do wrong?:

    2 Peter 2: (kjv)
    4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    *
    What are these angels going to be judged for?:

    Jude 1:6
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    Timothy

  299. on 19 Jan 2013 at 9:32 amJohn

    Timothy

    I don’t really know much about all the other angels. But I do see a hierarchy in heaven.

  300. on 19 Jan 2013 at 10:11 amWolfgang

    Mike (295)

    it is seemingly not possible for me to communicate in a manner in which others do understand what I mean when they read what I write … despite quite some effort I do put forth in my endeavor to express myself with precision, accuracy, correct grammar and correct use of vocabulary.

    Perhaps I should refrain from writing on blogs where English (which is not my native language) is used and restrict myself to places where folks use German?

    As far as what I understand the Scriptures to communicate regarding the matter, I will repeat what I wrote earlier:

    Indeed … they [the apostles] certainly did not imply that Jesus was a human being prior to his conception and birth, for anybody will know that such an idea is plain stupidity. They also knew that it is just as erroneous to imply that a human being pre-lives their conception and birth as some other kind of “living being /person” !!

    I would think that they also knew (for example, from Jesus’ teachings as well as from what they may have learned as children being taught by their parents) from the OT scriptures, that the man of the line of Abraham and David who would be the Messiah had been part of God’s plan from the beginning, thus had been as “thought, word” in God’s mind and His foreknowledge … and this is what they then taught and wrote.

    If you believe Jesus lived prior to his conception and birth, provide evidence from the Scriptures as to when he started his life (since conception and birht would then not be the starting point of his life), what kind of living being he was, where he lived, what he did … ?

  301. on 19 Jan 2013 at 10:40 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (300),

    I find you quite articulate. I don’t see how you could be any more so if English were your primary language.

    I don’t think the problem is with how you communicate, but rather with the position you have taken. There’s no reason to re-hash that here. What I would like to hear is your answer to what I raised as the more important point in 295.

  302. on 19 Jan 2013 at 2:50 pmWolfgang

    Mike,

    would it make a difference, which Jesus one calls Lord, seeing that Scripture talks about some early church folks were following “another [a different] Jesus”? would it then be of some importance to establish which Jesus one is talking about?

    Such a distinction might be able to explain away some of the preexistence scriptures, but not the ones that speak of Christ being active in that preexistence (e.g. 1 Cor 8:6; Phil 2:6-7; Heb 1:2, 10; Col 1:16; John 1:3,10; Mic 5:2) before his earthly life.

    Since you believe Jesus already lived prior to his conception and birth, what kind of living being was he? You mentioned “spirit” somewhere before … but that does not quite answer my question, seeing that God is spirit, angels are spirits, etc … so then, was he God, a second God living with His Father Who is the first God? was he an angel ? are there other spirit beings mentioned in Scripture one of which he was?

  303. on 19 Jan 2013 at 3:55 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (302),

    Let’s say there are two men, and both are calling on the name of Jesus. Let us also make clear that both are explicitly referencing the Jesus described in the four gospels. One, however, believes that Jesus preexisted in some form prior to his human conception while the other doesn’t. Are you suggesting that this means that these two men are not calling on the same Jesus (as in the sense of 2 Cor 11:4, to which I presume you were alluding)?

  304. on 19 Jan 2013 at 4:14 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    The first mention of cherubs is in Gen. 3:24, where the figure is not described, but their office was, with a flaming sword, to keep or guard the way of the tree of life …

    The serpent, a fallen angel, was in the Garden with humankind and is called “the devil” by us today.

    Angels, looking like men, went to Sodom to rescue Lot. The sodom men lusted for them:

    Romans 1: (kjv)
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    So these angels must have looked perfectly like human beings:

    Genesis 18: (kjv)
    4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

    5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

    6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.

    7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.

    8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

    22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

    There were three spirit beings? More than one looking like men and the other as the Lord.

    33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

    Genesis 19: (kjv)
    19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

    2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

    3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

    4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

    5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
    *
    Genesis 13: (kjv)
    13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.
    *
    6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

    7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

    10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

    11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

    Why have I copy/pasted so much scripture?

    First as I read to better understand, second for all you all and third per adventur others seeking the kingdom of GOD will be able to learn by reading GODs word. Try to do likewise.

    Now we may see that;

    angels come into fruition suddenly sometimes.
    *
    Hebrews 13: (kjv)
    2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
    *
    They seem to appear as handsome men.

    There feet need to be washed as guest.

    They can look like normal humans or be terifying to behold and need to comfort the humans they appear to.

    They eat and drink, just as Jesus did in his resurrected body.

    They have untold fierce abilities to unleash against humans.

    They fight for GODs people.

    Sometimes wear ultra white bright shineing clothing.
    *
    Acts 1: (kjv)
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    *

    They fight with and for GODs people>
    *
    Exodus 33: (kjv)
    2And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:
    *

    Generally angels are messingers for YAHWEH.

    Wolfgang—so far I never have encountered any mention of Jesus being an angel. I know that the JW make him the arck angel Gaberal and we recently have learned here, that a similar “false doctrine” is fracturing our unity in the body of Christ.

    There is much more about the fallen angels written in the
    “Book of Enoch”.

    Jude (kjv)
    14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Timothy

  305. on 19 Jan 2013 at 4:44 pmWolfgang

    Tim

    Wolfgang—so far I never have encountered any mention of Jesus being an angel. I know that the JW make him the arck angel Gaberal and we recently have learned here, that a similar “false doctrine” is fracturing our unity in the body of Christ.

    I haven’t read anything in Scripture either about Jesus living as an angel or archangel prior to his conception and birth

    Also, I am still awaiting Mike’s answer to my questions from above, seeing that he believes in Jesus having pre-lived prior to his conception and birth .. I had asked the following in 2 posts:

    If you believe Jesus lived prior to his conception and birth, provide evidence from the Scriptures as to when he started his life (since conception and birht would then not be the starting point of his life), what kind of living being he was, where he lived, what he did … ?

    Since you believe Jesus already lived prior to his conception and birth, what kind of living being was he? You mentioned “spirit” somewhere before … but that does not quite answer my question, seeing that God is spirit, angels are spirits, etc … so then, was he God, a second God living with His Father Who is the first God? was he an angel ? are there other spirit beings mentioned in Scripture one of which he was?

    So then, what are the answers to these questions?

  306. on 19 Jan 2013 at 5:09 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    # 296 I wrote:

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
    56 Abraham, euer Vater, ward froh, daß er meinen Tag sehen sollte; und er sah ihn und freute sich.
    *
    Abraham, your father, rejoiced that he could imagine my day coming.
    *
    same principle that John 1:1 has with GOD imagining what here he was going to talk into being(This is a figure of speech known as *Condescensio*. This is God condescending to reveal Himself within the sphere of His creatures’ experience. Just like the young boy would imagine what it would be like to be at the tier park, GOD condescending has his imagination, which I would call his foreknowledge. eh?

    (FYI-I learned to “imagen-neering” when target shooting, to have an image in my mind of the correct sight picture and squeezing the trigger when the literal picture of front and rear sights were on the target.)

    This is just an idea I thought you would further explain.

    PS-my spell checker is working again.

    Timothy

  307. on 19 Jan 2013 at 5:55 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (305),

    You haven’t yet shown me how the answers to these questions will affect your obedience to the Lord Jesus. If you come to believe that he had a preexistence, will you obey him more? If you hold fast your view that he is only human, will you obey him less?

    Do we not owe the Lord Jesus the same obedience whether we think him human or divine? “Lord”means “obey.”

  308. on 19 Jan 2013 at 6:51 pmJohn

    Mike Gantt

    If you believe Jesus started His life in the manger than you can say that when Jesus said, “Keep My commandments” He was not referring to the Ten Commandments. But if you see Jesus as the one who gave the Ten Commandments, at the direction of His Father, then you are obligated to keep them if you love God, this includes the fourth commandment.

  309. on 19 Jan 2013 at 8:06 pmMike Gantt

    John,

    If you think the fourth commandment means making one day of the week different, then you’re missing what the new covenant is all about.

    In the old covenant, there was a day set aside as the Sabbath. Remember, however, that the purpose of the old covenant was to foreshadow the new. The new covenant is the day of the Lord – the eternal day in which we now find ourselves. This day of the Lord is the Sabbath. That is, it’s a time of rest for the people of God; a time to do God’s will and not our own. Therefore, “those of us who live should no longer live for ourselves but for Him who died and rose again on our behalf.” (2 Cor 5:15).

    Anyone who thinks that the Lord died and rose again so that worship services could be moved from a synagogue on Saturday to a church on Sunday has grossly misunderstood the work of the Lord and severely underestimated His love for us and His expectations of us.

  310. on 19 Jan 2013 at 8:59 pmJas

    NIV ©
    “If you love me, you will obey what I command.

    John
    this is not speaking of commandments of God but obeying what Jesus taught. Jesus did not preexist but the spirit that indwelt him did. Wisdom, Holy spirit,the visible YHWH or better known as the other half of Us. The first creation of the Most High ,the seven lamps that indwell Jesus presently in Heaven,the Havah who is the mother of all living things.the Christ(Anointer) of the Christ(Anointed) Jesus.

    Mike
    You would do well to reread the bible without the rose colored glasses of tradition.
    the seventh day was a perpetual sign of those who truly love God

  311. on 19 Jan 2013 at 10:40 pmRay

    If Jesus was the angel of the Lord who appeared unto men in the OT, who was the angel of the Lord in Matthew 1:20? Could it have been any particulare angel of God? I suppose so. Could it have been the holy Spirit?

    If it had been the holy Spirit, I wonder what he might have looked like in the dream Joseph had. If it was the holy Spirit, I suppose he would have looked similar to how Jesus would look.

    The holy Spirit of God proceeded forth from God, but was he born of God? Certainly he was not born of God as Jesus was born of God.

    When Jesus proceeded forth from God to be born of a woman, he left the realm of heaven’s glory to come into the womb of a woman and take unto himself another form.

    Let’s suppose Jesus was the main messenger of God when God chose to communicate with men on this earth by the Spirit in OT times, that is to say that the information proceeded forth of God to Christ and then unto men by way of the holy Spirit speaking to the hearts of men, reaching unto their souls.

    It seems to me that Christ might also have sent angels, God’s ministering spiritual beings unto men at times in order to convey some heavenly message to them.

    I find it interesting when I see the word ‘the” sometimes. There ares scriptures that say “the angel of the Lord” and not “an angel of the Lord”. Angel means messenger doesn’t it?

  312. on 20 Jan 2013 at 1:22 amtimothy

    Mike Gantt,(307)

    Seems like I quote these scriptures over and over again and most hear are like the guy in parable of the sower:

    Matthew 13: (kjv)
    4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

    Jesus explains the parable:

    19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

    What happens when you hear these two important verses?

    Acta 2: (kjv)
    22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man [approved of God] among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    Jesus is a man=Jesus Christ is not GOD

    Jesus Is a man [approved of GOD]

    to be [approved of GOD]=one must rightly divide the word of truth:

    2 Timothy 2: (kjv)
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    All you all are not rightly dividing the word of truth:

    “Do we not owe the Lord Jesus the same obedience whether we think him human or divine? “Lord”means “obey.” ”

    We want to stand approved unto GOD!

    So, yes we follow and obey our Lord Jesus Christ by reproofing your false doctrines.

    2 Timothy 4: (kjv)
    4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    Apostle Paul’s “Paraclete” speaks Jesus’ word by revelation and by obedience Paul writes to Timothy(Timotheos):

    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

    2 Timothy 3:16=doctrine+reproof+correction

    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Seems like your ideas are fables:

    A) Jesus preexisted his conception and birth as a spirit being angel.

    B) Jesus Christ is GOD and not a living resurrected full human being with a now spiritual body.

    These false doctrine are a result of “wrongly dividing” GODs word and according to 2 Timothy 2:15 doing so one does not stand approved of GOD.

    Wolfgang, KR and myself are on the same page with how we “cut/divide” GODs word.

    Timothy <3

  313. on 20 Jan 2013 at 3:58 amWolfgang

    Mike (307)

    why do you refuse to answer my questions ? why do you dodge the issue by deviating to a different topic (lordship of Jesus) ?

  314. on 20 Jan 2013 at 5:05 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (313),

    What is the purpose of knowing Him better if not to obey Him more?

  315. on 20 Jan 2013 at 6:44 amJohn

    Is Jesus not good?

    Many people come to that conclusion when they read verses like Matthew 19:17.

    Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

    Why is it that whenever someone tried to exalt Jesus He always pointed them back to the Father? The reason for this is became Jesus came to glorify His Father’s name, not His.

    John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

    John 17:26 I made known Your name to them, and I will continue to make it known, so that the love You have loved Me with may be in them, and I may be in them.”

    The Bible speaks of Jesus as being in equal nature, God, just like His Father is God but He never used or exalted His nature for His own glory.

    Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.

    Jesus humbled Himself as a servant before mankind. He was always faithful to His work in glorifying the Father and never glorified Himself.

    1 Peter 5:6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time.

    After humbling Himself under His Father’s will He was exalted back to His former glory.

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    Jesus longed to return to His former glory, the glory He had with His Father before the world began.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    So the reason why you don’t find Jesus exalting Himself is because He was faithful to His work of glorifying the Father.

  316. on 20 Jan 2013 at 10:14 amRay

    Timothy,

    I believe Jesus existed as a spiritual being, a messenger of the life of God to this world before he existed in the womb of Mary. I don’t believe such a thing to be fable.

    In the Spirit, Christ, the Son of God was the light of men long before he entered into the womb of Mary to take on the form of men. He has aways been dwelling in God the eternal Spirit by the power of the holy Spirit. I trust he has always been clothed by the Spirit of God, even before the world began. Being his Son, he had the dominion, power, and glory of God who was with him, and he in him.

    When the angels saw the Son, didn’t they see God? (see John 14:9)

    How much of this that I am telling you, do you believe to be fables?

  317. on 20 Jan 2013 at 10:27 amJohn

    Ray

    Very, very nice Ray…\o/

    Your conclusion is based on Scripture, as a whole, and can be taught from Scripture with a clear conscience. Praise God!

    We may not completely understand all the mechanics of the eternal power and Divine nature but somethings just belong to God.

    Deuteronomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

    If finite man understood all that God is as the great “I AM”, God would cease to be God.

  318. on 20 Jan 2013 at 12:49 pmWolfgang

    John,

    you mention above

    The Bible speaks of Jesus as being in equal nature, God, just like His Father is God …

    Since I have read this and heard it many times in conversations, I would finally like to ask a simple question about such statement:

    Where does the Bible speak of Jesus as being IN EQUAL NATURE, GOD, just like His Father is God ?
    What is this NATURE to which you are referring? Is it what the Bible calls “divine nature”? Is this, partaking of the divine nature, what makes Jesus = God? or is it something else (if so, what is that nature)?

    I’ve read and heard many times people state that Jesus and His Father were of the same nature … but I have not read any scriptures which actually say that their supposed equality was because both had “the same nature” …

    Perhaps you can clear this up … BUT, please, do not post a list of all kinds of verses which you think show Jesus = God … I (like everybody else on this blog) have already read those. I honestly want to read verses which declare that God and Jesus share the SAME NATURE …

  319. on 20 Jan 2013 at 12:53 pmWolfgang

    Mike (314)

    What is the purpose of knowing Him better if not to obey Him more?

    who said anything about not wanting to confess and obey Jesus as Lord? as I mentioned before, this is another topic … which can gladly be discussed some other time.

    On the other hand, you seem think it does not matter whether one knows him or not ? As far as I am concerned, I think (a) if one is ignorant and does not know certain things about Jesus is a different matter from (b) one is misled and believes certain false information about Jesus and refuses to do anything about it when more accurate information from the Scriptures becomes available

  320. on 20 Jan 2013 at 1:54 pmJohn

    Wolfgang

    You’re kidding? Right?

  321. on 20 Jan 2013 at 2:22 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (319),

    I simply asked you what changes about obeying the Lord based on acceptance or rejection of his preexistence?

  322. on 20 Jan 2013 at 4:29 pmWolfgang

    Mike (321)

    actually … I don’t know what the answer to your question about what changes about obeying the Lord may be based on acceptance or rejection of his preexistence … could be quite different depending on what weight a person might put in general on the importance of being convinced of a certain aspect, such as preexistence of Christ, Deity of Christ, or perhaps some other aspect regarding his person

  323. on 20 Jan 2013 at 4:30 pmWolfgang

    Mike (321)

    I am still waiting for your answers to the questions I had asked previously and already twice …

  324. on 20 Jan 2013 at 5:02 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (322 and 323),

    I cannot understand how you would obey Jesus any less or more whether you thought he had a preexistence or not.

    Nor do I understand how you would obey Jesus any less or more whether you thought he was human or divine.

    Thus I do not understand how a Unitarian would act any differently than a Trinitarian (except that they would address God and Jesus differently in prayer), assuming both were fully committed to the lordship of Christ. In other words, unless I am eavesdropping on their prayer times, I do not see why I should be able to tell which one is the Unitarian and which one is the Trinitarian.

    As for me, I am neither Unitarian nor Trinitarian. I believe that Messiah was an identity God created for Himself before He created anything else. He manifested Himself in various ways throughout Old Testament times. This is what the New Testament references to Messiah’s preexistence are about. In the New Testament He became a human being. Thus you could say that God became an angel who became a man. This resurrected man (Christ) was revealed to be God Himself at the Second Coming which took place late in the first century, after 70 AD but before the last of the original disciples died – according to promise.

    I think I have answered your questions in full, but, if note, please let me know what I missed.

    To me, the most important thing in life is trusting and obeying Christ. This is why I will often bring it up. Theological discussions aren’t worth much if they don’t help us to trust and obey Him more. Further, I believe that if we are not growing in trust and obedience of Christ, then we can’t really be advancing in our knowledge of Him – no matter how smart or doctrinally correct we think we’ve become. In fact, we’d only be deceiving ourselves.

    Thus, to Christ be all trust, all obedience, and all glory!

  325. on 20 Jan 2013 at 7:37 pmRay

    As concerning the nature of Christ, I believe he is just as holy as God is. And what else could we add to that? Just as righteous, true, honest, pure, kind, loving, just, etc.

    Has there been any angel of God, that has proven his nature as being on par with God, that has done as well as Jesus, having made known his nature to men as Jesus has?

    Is there anything in the creation of God that should have power over Christ or that need not be subject to him?

    I do not consider it robbery to say that Jesus is equal to God in all the afore mentioned things and even more. He’s proven himself worthy to have ruled over Israel and th have exercised his authority over the Gentiles as both Lord and Saviour.

    He ruled over David as King, Priest, and Lord. He ruled over Thomas as being his God, his Saviour, and Lord.

  326. on 20 Jan 2013 at 7:48 pmtimothy

    Mike Gantt,

    You (324):

    “This resurrected man (Christ) was revealed to be God Himself at the Second Coming which took place late in the first century, after 70 AD but before the last of the original disciples died – according to promise.”

    Does this mean that you two too are “preterest”?:

    “Second Coming which took place late in the first century, after 70 AD”

    About angels:

    Isaiah 14: (kjv)
    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    Mike do you know that the above verses are speaking:

    “This resurrected man (Christ) was revealed to be God Himself at the Second Coming which took place late in the first century, after 70 AD”

    Timothy

  327. on 21 Jan 2013 at 3:30 amWolfgang

    Mike (324)

    you mention

    Thus I do not understand how a Unitarian would act any differently than a Trinitarian (except that they would address God and Jesus differently in prayer), assuming both were fully committed to the lordship of Christ. In other words, unless I am eavesdropping on their prayer times, I do not see why I should be able to tell which one is the Unitarian and which one is the Trinitarian.

    well, I am surprised … first you say you do not understand how Unitarian or Trinitarian would act differently in regards to obeying the lord Jesus … and then you do mention with your “except ….” a rather important point where their obedience would most certainly differ.

    I believe that Messiah was an identity God created for Himself before He created anything else.

    Hmn … this is a new idea for me. “God created an identy for Himself” … now why would God do such a thing, did He have to hide Himself from someone or disguise Himself so as to not be recognized when He went into action as the Creator?

    He manifested Himself in various ways throughout Old Testament times.

    I would say so as well … yet none of these manifestations were actually God Himself…
    This is what the New Testament references to Messiah’s preexistence are about.
    I do not read anywhere in Scripture even a hint which would confirm such an assumption.
    This is at does

    In the New Testament He became a human being.

    No, God did not “become a human being” … your statement flat out contradicts what we read throughout the OT and NT Scriptures about “God”, especially when reading the gospels and how they make a clear distinction between the man Jesus and God.

  328. on 21 Jan 2013 at 3:34 amWolfgang

    ooops …. in the above post a quote problem occurred in the following paragraph … perhaps a moderator can correct the mistake ? Please!

    ___________________________________________

    He manifested Himself in various ways throughout Old Testament times.

    I would say so as well … yet none of these manifestations were actually God Himself…

    This is what the New Testament references to Messiah’s preexistence are about.

    I do not read anywhere in Scripture even a hint which would confirm such an assumption. ….

    In the New Testament He became a human being.


    _________________________________________________

  329. on 21 Jan 2013 at 3:47 amtimothy

    John and all you all,

    (299)

    “Timothy
    I don’t really know much about all the other angels. But I do see a hierarchy in heaven.”

    I cannot find anywhere about Jesus being an angel before his conception and birth, Perhaps one should esquire of the
    JW researchers.

    Here is more written about the bad angels:

    Quote( I edited this by deleting much and adding more verses)

    *The fall of Lucifer*

    Genesis 1:2 is mistranslated in the KJV. It should read:

    “And the earth became without form and void, and darkness upon the face of the deep.”

    Genesis 1:2 contradicts Isaiah 45:18. Tohu means empty or lifeless. Isaiah 45:18 says He formed it to be inhabited, not as an empty wasteland. So, what caused a world that was formed to be inhabited to become empty and barren?

    What caused this original creation in Genesis 1:1 (which was perfect) to be formless and void.

    Isaiah 14:12; Ezekiel 28:15-19; Romans 8:22; I Timothy 3:6; Revelation 12:4; These Scriptures explain that in the beginning God created angels under three leaders: Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer.

    These three archangels were responsible for all the other angels. Lucifer, who was called an angel of light, wanted to usurp the throne of God. He caused a mutiny in heaven so to speak. Therefore Lucifer was cast out of heaven along with one third of the angels who, under Lucifer’s leadership, had conspired against God. After being cast out of heaven, Lucifer became “Satan”, “the Serpent”, “the Devil.” …The mutiny in heaven of Lucifer and his angels was so cataclysmic that while the war was taking place, all that God had originally created in Genesis 1:1 fell into ruin. Thus, verse 2 of Genesis 1 says, “and the earth was [became] without
    form and void…”

    a couple of related verses in the Old Testament.

    I Kings 22: (kjv)
    19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne,
    and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

    20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

    21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

    22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so

    This is a very perplexing passage of Scripture. God apparently sent a spirit from heaven to be a lying spirit in the mouths of false prophets. Can an angel become a lying spirit? Not according to any Christian doctrine I know of. This lying spirit had to be a devil, demon, or evil spirit.

    Job 1: (kjv)
    6 Now there was a day when the [sons of God] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
    ***
    LOOK what some of the evil ones did:

    Genesis 6: (kjv)
    2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    4 There were [giants] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. [giants]=Rapha/Raphaim/Nephilim
    ***
    “(These half angel and half human giants all died in the flood, yet the “also after that” shows other giants appeared. The Nephilim and later the Raphaim are the descendants of fallen angels.)”
    ***
    “(For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man. Deuteronomy 3:11 (KJV)

    Og required a bed 9 × 4 cubits made of iron as described in the above verse, and for approximate modern measurements convert 1 cubit to 18 inches, or just under 1/2 meter (0.4572 meters). His bed was 13.5 feet long by 6 feet wide (4.1 meters by 1.83 meters). This giant descendant of a supernatural fallen angel was likely 12 feet tall minimum if you allow 18 inches to tuck his feet in at night.)”
    ***
    5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    ***
    7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From [going to and fro] in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

    1 Peter 5: (kjv)
    8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    Satan presented himself at the throne of God in heaven. He had come from the earth but obviously was not restricted to earth. He had free access to both earth and heaven. Now with these truths in mind, let’s take a close look at Revelation and Ezekiel.

    Revelation 12: (kjv)
    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Verse 8 bears repeating. “…neither was their place found any more in heaven.”. The book of Job testifies that Satan had free access to God’s throne. I Kings says a lying spirit descended from heaven to cause the demise of King Ahab. Therefore, Lucifer’s place is still found in heaven and the casting down referred to in Revelation 12 is yet to occur.

    Furthermore, verse 10 describes the fall of Lucifer as the casting down of “the accuser of our brethren…who accused them before our God day and night.” How pray tell, could Lucifer be the accuser of the brethren if he had been cast out before Adam and Eve were formed, before Abraham was called, before the Church was founded? This is a chronological impossibility.

    Ezekiel 28: (kjv)
    12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

    17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

    18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

    19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

    Lucifer’s former status and his sin, [thereal “original sin”] are past tense. Conversely, every single reference to his fall from heaven is future tense and is communicated in the same context as his destruction. He will be cast down and humiliated and destroyed all in the same time frame.

    II Peter 3: (kjv)
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    It is possible that this cataclysmic flood was caused by the original sin of Lucifer, but not by his fall from heaven. So we can no longer associate the darkness of Genesis chapter one with the casting down of the angel of light.

    2 Peter 2: (kjv)
    4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Jude 1: (kjv)
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    The fall of Lucifer is still future.

    At this point in time he still has access to the throne of God and uses that access to accuse God’s people day and night, as he did Job.

    Fortunately, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. This truth is the context of the epistle of Ephesians which presents us as seated in the heavenlies, declares that by the Church the wisdom of God is manifest to those in the heavenlies, and declares that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in the heavenlies.

    Ephesians 2, 3, and 6
    2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    2 Corinthians 4:4
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    This is a sobering reality, but our hope of justice and of the eventual destruction of the destroyer is certain. God will throw down and humiliate the [god of this world] before he is eventually brought to ashes before the people he continues to enslave. That will be a glorious day indeed!

    end Quote

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  330. on 21 Jan 2013 at 7:39 amJohn

    Timothy

    It’s important for us all that you go through each one of these in this reply and answer them.

    Which one of these is Jesus not?

    a) representative

    b) messenger

    c) angel

    d) the theophanic angel

    e) variant

    f) ambassador

    g) envoy

    h) one who is sent

    i) a messenger from God

    (If you say Jesus is any one of the above then He is classified as an Angel.)

    Who is Abraham speaking with in Genesis 18?

    Who is this?

    Judges 13:21-23 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”

    Who is this?

    Genesis 16:10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.”

    Who is this?

    Genesis 22:11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”So he said, “Here I am.”

    Who is this?

    Exodus 3:2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

    Who is this?

    Judges 2:1 Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you.

    Who is this?

    Judges 2:3-5 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept. Then they called the name of that place Bochim; and they sacrificed there to the Lord.

    Who is this?

    Judges 6:22-23 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face.” Then the Lord said to him, “Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die.”

    Who is this?

    Judges 13:17-18 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?” And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    Who is this?

    Zechariah 1:11 So they answered the Angel of the Lord, who stood among the myrtle trees, and said, “We have walked to and fro throughout the earth, and behold, all the earth is resting quietly.”

    Who is this?

    Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.

    Who is this?

    Zechariah 12:8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them.

    Who is this?

    John 1:10-14 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Who is the He here and when was the He, He?

    John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    Who is the (I) here?

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Can you identify each name and title here?

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    This is only the tip of the iceberg.

  331. on 21 Jan 2013 at 8:09 amWolfgang

    Mike

    This resurrected man (Christ) was revealed to be God Himself at the Second Coming which took place late in the first century, after 70 AD but before the last of the original disciples died – according to promise.

    while I disagree with the first part of your statement (“this resurrected man (Christ) was revealed to be God Himself …”) I also do believe that the so-called second coming of Christ happened in the first century AD and involving events of 70 AD and happening before the last of the original disciiples died – according to promise.

    I thought I was the only one who has such an understanding regarding the timing of the second coming of the Lord

  332. on 21 Jan 2013 at 8:11 amWolfgang

    To clarify the last statement of my above post a bit … it should read more accurately:

    I thought I was the only one among those writing on this blog who has such an understanding regarding the timing of the second coming of the Lord

  333. on 21 Jan 2013 at 9:02 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (327),

    You said:

    “Hmn … this is a new idea for me. “God created an identity for Himself” … now why would God do such a thing, did He have to hide Himself from someone or disguise Himself so as to not be recognized when He went into action as the Creator?”

    Two reasons, though the first one is reason enough:

    1) A human being who knows he’s God cannot be “tempted in all things as we are.” All human beings essentially have amnesia regarding the origin of their lives (few are the memories before age 5 that anyone can recall), and are thus dependent on others to tell them about it. Jesus was no different. Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4 provides the model of a great one divested of his senses and cast in a lowly place, only to return to that which he came.

    2) Satan and host of adversaries in the heavenly realm could not know the true identity of Messiah or else “they would not have crucified the Lord of glory” (1 Cor 2:8), for it was the means by which their authority was vanquished.

  334. on 21 Jan 2013 at 9:09 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (331 and 332),

    Where and how did you learn this truth?

  335. on 21 Jan 2013 at 9:23 amtimothy

    Sean,

    John(330),

    With the exception of, c) and d) angels, which ones I am not; I am all of the above, listed persons, a) through i) and endeavor to repent, renew my mind and change into the human person Jesus Christ was before his death and resurrection and when he returns I will see him as he is in my changed, spiritual, resurrected human body.

    I never can have, right now, anymore than Jesus was, a conceived and born human being.

    As a token and earnest, I have my own “Paraclete”, holy spirit of truth, “GOD in Christ in Me”, my standing.

    And further more, based on these few communication polices from our KR:

    “Kingdom Ready”

    Communication Policy

    How To Disagree Respectfully and Fruitfully

    Here are some positive statements about how we can argue constructively. Whereas the previous list speaks to what we should not do, this list gives guidance as to what we should do.

    6) If, after open, honest debate, two parties still do not agree on an issue, and each side is convinced that the other “just can’t see it,” then the Christian thing to do is to “agree to disagree” and not continue wrangling and arguing about it. We will never agree on everything, so this will likely be how many debates will conclude.
    7) What we should avoid is taking the attitude of “I must proclaim The Truth, and continue to proclaim it whether they want to hear it or not.” If parties agree to disagree on a matter, they should let it go, and not keep bringing it up, especially in other threads that have nothing to do with the matter on which they disagree. If a poster continually proclaims his views with no intention of debating, it is seen as baiting an argument, which detracts from the thread, and it engenders strife as well.”

    “the Christian thing to do is to “agree to disagree” and not continue wrangling and arguing about it.”

    “If a poster continually proclaims his views with no intention of debating, it is seen as baiting an argument, which detracts from the thread, and it engenders strife as well.”

    “I agree to disagree”, respectfully, and see no profit for me to continue with your “skandalon” baited arguments.

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  336. on 21 Jan 2013 at 9:58 amJohn

    Timothy

    This is what I usually get….thanks.

  337. on 21 Jan 2013 at 9:59 amWolfgang

    Mike (333)

    You said:

    “Hmn … this is a new idea for me. “God created an identity for Himself” … now why would God do such a thing, did He have to hide Himself from someone or disguise Himself so as to not be recognized when He went into action as the Creator?”

    Two reasons, though the first one is reason enough:

    1) A human being who knows he’s God cannot be “tempted in all things as we are.”

    ?? what does this even have to do with my question and your earlier statement? How does this give reason for God creating a different identiy for Himself ??
    Furthermore, you make it sound as if God was trying to hide from Jesus (which according to your earlier statement, was God Himself, just as another identity ?) was not supposed to know who he (Jesus) was ?? Makes it look as if God kept Himself ignorant of Who He (his second identiy) was ?

    Truth is: If Jesus was actually God (whether disguised in a second identity or not), He could not have been tempted in all things as we are !

    All human beings essentially have amnesia regarding the origin of their lives (few are the memories before age 5 that anyone can recall), and are thus dependent on others to tell them about it. Jesus was no different. Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4 provides the model of a great one divested of his senses and cast in a lowly place, only to return to that which he came.

    I have no clue what this is supposed to have to do with what we are discussing …

    2) Satan and host of adversaries in the heavenly realm could not know the true identity of Messiah or else “they would not have crucified the Lord of glory” (1 Cor 2:8), for it was the means by which their authority was vanquished.

    where does 1Co 2:8 say anything about Satan and host of adversaries in the heavenly realm could not know the true identiy of Messiah ?

  338. on 21 Jan 2013 at 10:05 amWolfgang

    Mike (334)

    I learned about the second coming of Christ having taken place in the 1st century AD from trying to sort out how it could be that the NT scriptures speak all over the place about a soon coming fulfillment of those prophecies about the coming of the Son of man and the traditional doctrines of most of Christian groups contradict that with their ideas of a still future coming …

    The endeavor was part of a re-evaluating of my beliefs after having left a particular group and desiring to take a more objective look at the things which I had been taught and had been teaching for many years …

  339. on 21 Jan 2013 at 10:33 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (338),

    Good for you.

    I do not know very much about preterism or preterists, but most of them I have discovered on the Internet seem to say that the coming of the kingdom was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which, of course, it could not be because our Lord had said that would be a preliminary sign of His coming, not the coming itself.

    They also seem to think that church should continue. However, church was, of course, rendered obsolete with the coming of the kingdom.

    To God be the glory!

  340. on 21 Jan 2013 at 10:34 amMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (337),

    Do you not understand that God died and rose as Jesus? Then He died as Jesus and rose as God.

  341. on 21 Jan 2013 at 12:03 pmWolfgang

    Mike (340)

    I understand that God cannot die !

    Do you not understand that God died and rose as Jesus? Then He died as Jesus and rose as God.

    this makes no sense whatever …

  342. on 21 Jan 2013 at 12:06 pmWolfgang

    Mike (339)

    so then since the coming of the Lord was after the judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD, when do say his coming was? what historic event is to be identified with his coming?
    Was his coming not be as a judge (cp Jam, who speaks about the judge already “being at the door” at the time of writing of his epistle) ?

  343. on 21 Jan 2013 at 12:09 pmWolfgang

    oops … for some reason it seems that my keyboard is not keeping up with my typing and “eats” small words or a few letters once in a while

    Above sentence

    so then since the coming of the Lord was after the judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD, when do say his coming was? should have read:

    so then since the coming of the Lord was after the judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD, when do you say his coming was?

  344. on 21 Jan 2013 at 2:19 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (341)

    To die is simply to give up one form of existence for another. He lived as YHWH; now He lives as Christ. Similarly, you now live as Wolfgang; and you will one day live as resurrected Wolfgang (you could say “the son of Wolfgang”).

  345. on 21 Jan 2013 at 2:25 pmtimothy

    Mike Gantt,

    Ha Ha….
    Are you implying “the son of Wolfgang” is a “sheep in wolfs clothing”?

  346. on 21 Jan 2013 at 2:27 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (342 and 343),

    His coming was “not with signs to be observed” (Luke 17:20-21). It was in “the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor 15:52). Only the sanctified experienced it (Heb 12:14); to the unworthy He came like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2; 2 Thess 1:9-10). Thus I do not know how to make the date more precise than between 70 A.D. and the death of the last original disciples. As you know, precise dates for the deaths of the disciples are unknown, but it is unlikely that any were after 100 A.D. Thus, we can say 70-100 A.D. Since the apostle John could have lived into the 90’s and wrote with the Lord’s coming still in the future, we can say that it was probably closer to 100 A.D. than to 70 A.D.

  347. on 21 Jan 2013 at 2:31 pmWolfgang

    Mike (344)

    you seem to invent your own definition or application of terms .

    To die is simply to give up one form of existence for another. He lived as YHWH; now He lives as Christ.

    In a way I don’t care how you define “to die”, the point I am making is that Scripture teaches that God can NOT “die” (however you may want to define it)

    I still find your argument confusing and contradicting the Scriptures.

    Similarly, you now live as Wolfgang; and you will one day live as resurrected Wolfgang (you could say “the son of Wolfgang”).

    No, I could not say “the son of Wolfgang”, because “the son of Wolfgang” is a person who was born over 30 years ago and whose name is not even “Wolfgang”.

    Your implication of God changing into Jesus is plain non-biblical … one only need to read a record in the gospels about Jesus praying to God, and it should be clear that “God” and “Jesus” are not the same person or being.

  348. on 21 Jan 2013 at 2:42 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (347),

    If you don’t care to accept what I’m saying, so be it. As I said before, my overarching interest is in actualizing the lordship of Christ. If you are serving Him, it will be well with your soul.

  349. on 21 Jan 2013 at 2:47 pmWolfgang

    Mike (346)

    His coming was “not with signs to be observed” (Luke 17:20-21). It was in “the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor 15:52).

    For some reason, I am not reading in Lk 17:20-21 that the coming of the Lord would be “not with signs to be observed” …. I rather read this:

    Lk 17:20 (KJV)
    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    By the way, this statement of Jesus also does away with the idea that the kingdom of God is an observable political nation … as so many here seem to believe.

    1Co 15:52 also does NOT speak about the time or speed of the coming of the Lord “in the twinkling of an eye” … it speaks about the resurrection and change that will happen at the lust trumpet and emphasizes that this will not be a drawn out process but happen “in the twinkling of an eye”.

    Once again, I notice a somewhat uncareful reading of what the verses actually do say on your part

    Only the sanctified experienced it (Heb 12:14); to the unworthy He came like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2; 2 Thess 1:9-10).

    See above … what are those verses actually about? and obviously all experienced it, just in quite different ways.

    Thus I do not know how to make the date more precise than between 70 A.D. and the death of the last original disciples. As you know, precise dates for the deaths of the disciples are unknown, but it is unlikely that any were after 100 A.D. Thus, we can say 70-100 A.D. Since the apostle John could have lived into the 90′s and wrote with the Lord’s coming still in the future, we can say that it was probably closer to 100 A.D. than to 70 A.D.

    John wrote about it as in the imminent future, because at the time of writing it was imminent in the future … and since John’s writing indicates that the temple at Jerusalem was still standing, and Jerusalem had not been destroyed, the internal evidence of the book of Revelation indicates that John wrote it prior to 70AD (actually, there are indications that he wrote it while being imprisoned by Nero and before being released by Galba … shortly before Nero’s death)

  350. on 21 Jan 2013 at 3:24 pmJas

    Lk 17:20 (KJV)
    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    By the way, this statement of Jesus also does away with the idea that the kingdom of God is an observable political nation … as so many here seem to believe.

    Wolfgang
    so your belief requires the kingdom tocome with out observation,much like death.
    This also does away with the idea that the kingdom of God is a observable spiritual nation with resurrected people who could observe it.
    The context of this verse is when not the nature of it . This question is almost the same as Acts 1:6. The timeframe is set by God and as we find in Acts Jesus doesnt know and is therefore not observable for Us

  351. on 21 Jan 2013 at 3:47 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    so your belief requires the kingdom tocome with out observation,much like death.

    no … my belief is that the reign of God is spiritual in nature, therefore “not with observation”. Matters of the spiritual realm are without observation, whereas the setting up of a political nation can be observed by anyone and everyone.

    This also does away with the idea that the kingdom of God is a observable spiritual nation with resurrected people who could observe it.

    who was being addressed with this statement ? were those resurrected people? obviously not. The point is not about whether or not those who are in the kingdom will notice what’s going on and observe God’s reign …. the point of the statement was plain that God’s reign does NOT come (is not set up) with the folks living at the time seeing it as they would be able to observe if it were a political earthly kingdom.

    The context of this verse is when not the nature of it .

    Well, the point is when (timeframe) it comes, it would be without observation … and that point is plain as day indicating that it will not be an earthly political kingdom (NOT “a kingdom of this world” ) which could be seen and observed by anyone and everyone,

    This question is almost the same as Acts 1:6. The timeframe is set by God and as we find in Acts Jesus doesnt know and is therefore not observable for Us

    while the timeframe was set by God, Jesus very well knew the “timeframe”, seeing that he prophesied at various occasions about the timeframe being “soon” and even “in this generation (his contemporaries)”, and he emphasized that the timeframe could be known by comparing the matter to (1) a woman expecting a child … she surely knows the timeframe, just not the day or the hour when labor will set in and the baby be born, and (2) the situation with a tree, when you see the leaves coming out, anyone giving the matter proper thought knows that the timeframe for summer to start is imminent.

  352. on 21 Jan 2013 at 4:04 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    I am not surprised that you fail to understand the context of their question or of Jesus’ answer as being WHEN.
    The new moons,seasons and new year are observable and Jesus is just stating when is not observable.
    Nowhere does this verse even hint about the nature of the kingdom but as usual you twist to suit.
    Jesus gave signs that were observable for the Possible future destruction so equating it with the coming of the kingdom of God becomes impossible with this verse

  353. on 21 Jan 2013 at 4:21 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (349),

    You said:

    “…John’s writing indicates that the temple at Jerusalem was still standing,”

    Please give chapter and verse.

  354. on 21 Jan 2013 at 4:30 pmSheryl

    I get the impression from reading Luke 17:20 in context he is telling the Pharisees not to watch for signs because the kingdom is already in their midst, and after suffering and being rejected he will come again in a flash, like lightning. People will be acting like everything is the same as always and suddenly Jesus will make his second coming and establish the Kingdom on earth. If the kingdom of God is not “observable” then why is the kingdom described in detail the same way Noah’s ark was described?

  355. on 21 Jan 2013 at 4:41 pmJas

    Sheryl
    Observable is in reference to when not the physical or spiritual nature of it or where it will be. But considering the days like the days of Noah are given with signs that are observable it is incorrect to equate the coming of the kingdom because Jesus says that “when” is not observable in this verse which means if the outcome of the sign of Jonah is God not destroying Jerusalem and the Temple then none of these signs will come before the Kingdom of Israel being restored.

  356. on 22 Jan 2013 at 12:13 amRay

    Should it be that “A fire truck isn’t red because red is a color.” be the greatest revelation a Christian should have? I wonder if the Lord’s Angel in Rev 1:1 was the holy Spirit.

  357. on 22 Jan 2013 at 3:57 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    If the kingdom of God is not “observable” then why is the kingdom described in detail the same way Noah’s ark was described?

    descriptions are sometimes given as part of a literal statement (sort of like “a report” about something) and sometimes they are given as part of a figure of speech (and what is said is not a “literal report”, but a more emphatic picture of the literal truth that is described)

    Cp. the use of a parable, for example, the parable of the sower and the seed … what is stated uses the same type of words and same type of detail as might be used in a newspaper “report” about an actual farmer sowing seed … BUT, the story told with those same words and detail is NOT about a farmer going out on his field and sowing …the story uses “the picture of a sower sowing seed” to convey a truth of an entirely different nature (that is, it is about a person preaching a message and about how this message is received … has nothing whatever to do with a literal farmer, nor with literal seed, nor with literal field … even though those very same words and details are used as would be if it were a report about a farmer sowing seed in his field.

    What about the message regarding the kingdom of God ? there are quite a few parables which Jesus told … and in none of them he meant to describe the kingdom as being what those literal words actually mean.

    I’ve seen quite often pictures of a lion and a lamb being right next to each other … and it was obvious that the painter as well as the viewers / readers understood the particular OT prophecy mentioning the lion and the lamb next to each other in its literal sense, as if it were a “report” about how lions and lambs will behave in the future kingdom of God. They miss the point to which this prophetic picture refers … which is “peace to the highest degree among the people who are in it” (such as if deadly enemies – like lion and lamb – would peacefully be right next to each other)
    See, a lion and a lamb are NOT ever literally next to each other, therefore the picture does NOT refer to a literal lion and a literal lamb, but lion and lamb are used as part of a figure of speech to emphasize how great the peace will be.

    See, many of those folks know that lion and lamb are deadly enemies and therefore this picture cannot be literally true …. BUT they are ignorant of figures of speech and the truth that if words and their meanings are not literally true then they are used as part of a figure of speech. So what do they do? The continue insisting on a literal interpretation and claim that lion and lamb are NOW deadly enemies, but these animals will be entirely changed in character in the FUTURE kingdom of God … something which is nothing but speculation and assumption because of course nobody can know the future … which these interpreters use – as they think, to their advantage – because nobody can prove them wrong either. The truth of the matter is, their premise is already wrong … and so their “assumptions for the future” are already “proven” to be incorrect.

    The kingdom of God is described with words and descriptions which could also be used for descriptions of visible physical things and events as we see each day … BUT God’s reign in the new covenant age is NOT about a political earthly nation-kingdom, and Jesus is NOT a political ruler-king as those who rule a nation and are commanders of literal armies, etc.

    A few thoughts … hopefully helpful.

  358. on 22 Jan 2013 at 5:17 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    You have given (357) the best revealing of the “Top Parable” in your above post. Everyone would profit from studying and applying their Christian walk to the “HUAHB” of this parable and take a class available currently only from lhim book store, “Change to Change”.

    I will share your description of the two most important parables to take heed to.

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  359. on 28 Jan 2013 at 3:24 pmWolfgang

    Timothy,

    thank you for your kind words re my post above … unfortunately nobody else seems to have found my effort to be helpful

  

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