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One of my favorite passages of the gospels is the resurrection of Lazarus from the dead, found in John 11:1-46. Lazarus was the brother of the Mary and Martha whom Jesus visited in Luke 10. Jesus loved Lazarus dearly (John 11:5) and his sisters must have been deeply distraught when Lazarus fell seriously ill (John 11:1). They immediately went to Jesus, but surprisingly, Jesus did not go immediately to Lazarus. Rather, he remained in the place where he was for two days, and told Mary and Martha, “This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it” (John 11:4).

What good news for Mary and Martha! Jesus Christ had clearly told them that the sickness would not end in death. They must have returned home relieved and hopeful that Lazarus would soon make a full recovery. But then, a few verses later, we find a shocking plot twist. Jesus tells his disciples, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep” (John 11:11). The disciples thought he was talking about natural sleep, so they said, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover” (John 11:12). They did not realize that Jesus was talking about the sleep of death. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead” (John 11:14).

What a shock this must have been for the disciples! I think many of us, familiar with the resurrection of Lazarus, do not realize the full emotional impact of those three words: “Lazarus is dead.” Jesus had clearly said that the sickness would not end in death, and yet, just two days later, he says, “Lazarus is dead.” How could this be? Had Jesus failed? Were his words not true? The disciples must have been terribly distressed, so much so that Thomas said, “Let us also go, so that we may die with him” (John 11:16).

And so they set off for the house of Lazarus, and when they arrived, his body had already been laid in a tomb for four days (John 11:17). The scene there was one of total chaos. The Lord had said that the sickness would not end in death, yet Lazarus had died! Mary and Martha must have been horribly distraught and confused. Why had Jesus waited two days instead of coming immediately to heal Lazarus? Now it was too late! Martha and Mary both blamed Jesus, saying, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died” (John 11:21, 32). Some of those present even mocked Jesus, saying, “Could not this man, who opened the eyes of the blind man, have kept this man also from dying?” (John 11:37).

In the midst of all this confusion, John tells us that Jesus “was deeply moved in spirit and was troubled” (John 11:33) and “Jesus wept” (John 11:35). John does not tell us why Jesus wept, but I believe he wept over their unbelief. Jesus had promised that the sickness would not end in death, yet no one believed him. Here was a man who had performed many miracles and healed many people, yet he seemingly failed to heal Lazarus before it was too late. They blamed him for foolishly waiting two days instead of coming immediately. They mocked him, saying, “he opened the eyes of the blind, but he couldn’t kept this man from dying!” And Jesus wept.

Yet it was all part of God’s plan. It was God’s will that Jesus wait two days instead of coming to Lazarus immediately. One of the great lessons we can learn from this story is that even when the situations and circumstances of life seem utterly helpless, even in those darkest moments, God is ultimately working all things together for good for His glory (Romans 8:28).

Here is the part of the story I find most fascinating and significant:

John 11:23-26 – Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Contrast the doubt of Martha with the faith of Abraham. Abraham, when tested by God, was willing to offer up his son Isaac, because God had promised to make a great nation through Isaac. Abraham knew that God could not break his promise (Numbers 23:19) and therefore, Abraham believed that even if Isaac died, God would be faithful to raise Isaac from the dead (Hebrews 11:19).

Martha had also received a promise – that Lazarus’ sickness would not end in death. This means that even if Lazarus died, his death would not be the end! Jesus Christ would be faithful to raise Lazarus from the dead, “so that the Son of God may be glorified by it” (John 11:4). Martha believed that all of the dead will be raised at the end of the age (Revelation 20:13), but she had lost hope in the power of Christ in the here and now. Before her stood the Son of God who possesses all power in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18) even the power to raise Lazarus from the sleep of death immediately. Jesus had said, “I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep” (John 11:11). But instead, Martha was waiting for the end of the age.

Martha put her faith in a future event, instead of in the person of Christ.

Christ’s response to Martha is one of my favorite sayings of Jesus: “I am the resurrection and the life.” Martha had put her faith in her theological understanding of the future resurrection, without realizing that Jesus Christ IS himself the resurrection. He IS the life-giving spirit (1 Corinthians 15:45) and the fountain of living water (John 4) that heals us today (Isaiah 53:5). Martha had faith in the Kingdom coming in the future, but no faith that the King standing before her could work a miracle in the present! When this evil age comes to an end, there will indeed be established a Kingdom on the earth where all who are made righteous in Christ, raised to life again, will live with God forever (Revelation 21). But the Kingdom of God is not only our future hope, but also our present hope as well. Jesus is already King – his victory has already been won, his throne has already been established! From the right hand of God, he is ruling and shepherding his global Body and he’s ready to work mighty miracles if we would turn to him in faith. Thus, Jesus says to us, “behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst!” (Luke 17:21).

We may have a great understanding of what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross and what he will accomplish in the future. But do we know what he is working to accomplish in our lives right here and right now?

We may have a great understanding of who Jesus is, theologically speaking. But do we know who he is, personally?

Brother Yun is a Chinese Christian evangelist who founded many underground churches in China. He was imprisoned and tortured for his faith. In his book The Heavenly Man, he describes his miraculous escape from Zhèngzhōu Maximum-Security Prison. As each door opened before him, he heard the voice of Jesus instruct him to simply walk out through the heavily guarded main gate. At risk of being shot to death by the guards, he obeyed and walked out through the gate. Miraculously, no one saw him, as if he had become invisible. To this day, he remains the only person to have ever escaped from that prison.

Brother Yun makes an insightful observation on the story of Lazarus on pages 74-75 of his book Living Water: 

When Jesus informed Martha that he had come to raise Lazarus from the dead, Martha resorted to her theological knowledge by saying, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day” (John 11:24). This is a chief attribute of Christians who only know Jesus from a theological viewpoint. They know about the history of God’s workings with humankind, and they know that in the future God will make everything right. But they do not know Jesus in the here and now. Jesus has become a historical and a future figure, but not a present figure in their daily lives.

Many churches are spiritually dead today because they keep Jesus at a “safe distance” while they control their own lives and make their own plans. Until you realize that the living Jesus Christ wants to be a major part of everything you do, you will not see revival. Until He is rightfully enthroned as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, your plans will continue to be frustrated and you will see little true blessing of heaven on your activities.

If we’re not careful,it’s easy to intellectualize Jesus into a mere historical figure. It’s easy to think of him as the one who came and died for our sins, and who will come again to rule the world, but forget about all the work Jesus is accomplishing in the world today!

I don’t want to treat Jesus as merely a historical or future figure.

I don’t want to settle for merely knowing about him.

I want to know him personally, right here and right now!

I want to have a relationship with him!

Most of all, I want to see his power manifested in my life. I want to hear his voice daily and follow his direction in my life. As Jesus said in John 10:27, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”

Do you know Jesus… or do you only know about him?

103 Responses to “Taking Jesus Seriously: Right Here and Right Now”

  1. on 11 Mar 2013 at 9:08 pmRich

    Great article Matthew !

    I share your heart’s desire to get to know Jesus personally and not just from a theological perspective.

    I think this might be what Jesus had in mind when he prayed in John 17 shortly before his death:

    John 17:1-3
    “Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

  2. on 11 Mar 2013 at 10:44 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    This is a wonderful ‘sermon’, Matt. You have brought more depth and relevance to the story of Lazarus for me – thank you!

  3. on 14 Mar 2013 at 1:43 pmWolfgang

    Hi Matt,

    this article touches on some very interesting and important points, and I have pondered on some of these things for quite some time as well … and still have some questions. Perhaps you or someone else has further insights …

    One point concerns the passage from Joh 11 which you quoted as well:

    John 11:23-26 – Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

    My question concerns Jesus statement to Martha in which he mentions two types/categories/etc of believers in him:
    (a)he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
    (b)everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

    How can it be that everyone who lives and believes in me will never die, and yet just before this statement Jesus said he who believes in him will live even if he dies?

  4. on 14 Mar 2013 at 1:55 pmWolfgang

    Hi Matt,
    you mention at the end of your article

    I don’t want to treat Jesus as merely a historical or future figure.

    I don’t want to settle for merely knowing about him.

    I want to know him personally, right here and right now!

    I want to have a relationship with him!

    (a) Since Jesus is not present in person on earth, is it even available “to know him personally, right here and now”? Would “to know personally” not require that Christ and us be in the same place?

    There are some folks writing on this blog whom I do not know personally, and cannot know personally, until a time when we are in the same place and meet in person … before such time, it is just not available to know each other personally (no matter how much we would like to have it that way right now) We know each other in some other way, by means of the words being exchanged here and what each have written about themselves and about other things, etc … but we do not know each other personally for the very simple reason: It is not available at this time right here and right now.

    (b) Wanting to have a relationship with Jesus touches a bit on the same points as with the above … except for the truth that it is available/possible to have a relationship with someone whom we do not have to know in person. We just must carefully observe what kind of relationship is available in the current situation.

  5. on 14 Mar 2013 at 4:02 pmMatt Elton

    Wolfgang,

    You raise a good question about Jesus being “present” and whether it is possible to have a personal relationship with him. I’m going to address this in my next post, on Monday. I’ll include some examples from the scriptures of individuals who actually communicated with Jesus after his ascension into heaven. You are correct that a “face to face” relationship with Jesus is not possible at this time, but that doesn’t mean a relationship with Jesus is any less real, or any less personal! Jesus is the Head, and the church is his Body. He wrote to the churches in Asia, “I know you by your works” (Revelation 1-2). Revelation 2:1 says that Jesus “walks among the churches.” And in Revelation 2:23, Jesus says, “I am He who searches the minds and hearts.” Through the Holy Spirit in every believer, Jesus is aware of everything going on his Body, the church. But how can a body function without receiving signals from the head? Jesus knows your mind and your heart. He already knows you personally. Not only is it possible to hear his voice, but I believe it is his desire to have a real relationship with us, his disciples. Jesus says in John 10:14, “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me.” And in John 10:27, he says, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”

    I’ll get into this in more detail in my next post.

    Regarding John 11:23-26, I think the answer to your questions is in how we define “death.” The wages of sin is death, meaning the total end of life. Unless they are resurrected, a person who dies ceases to exist. So that kind of death is permanent and is the same as total destruction or annihilation.

    But for the believer, death is not permanent but only a temporary “sleep” awaiting the future resurrection unto eternal life. Jesus said “Lazarus has fallen asleep.” I believe when Jesus says “everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die” he means that we will never experience total death (permanent death) but rather, our death is only a temporary sleep – in the grand scheme of things, it is not real death at all. Even though we “die” it’s really only a temporary sleep, not death. That’s why Jesus also said, “he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.”

  6. on 15 Mar 2013 at 11:43 amWolfgang

    Hi Matt,

    thanks for your note and the information regarding my earlier comments.

    Re “personal relationship” I’ll wait to see what your next article on Monday will explain further

    Re Joh 11:23-26 I am still pondering matters … more so because I am trying to put myself into Martha’s place and what Jesus told her in rather simple words, rather than understanding it from a perspective of a 21st century “theologically schooled” reader.

    I believe when Jesus says “everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die” he means that we will never experience total death (permanent death) but rather, our death is only a temporary sleep – in the grand scheme of things, it is not real death at all. Even though we “die” it’s really only a temporary sleep, not death.

    Well, I have trouble saying that “death” is not “real death” or putting “die” in “” and saying “it’s really only a temporary sleep, it is not real death at all”.
    People who are dead are really dead … or else if they are not really dead, they can also not be raised from the dead! The literal truth is that when Lazarus “died” he was “dead” … and not just “sleeping”, which Jesus plainly affirmed also! The use of the term “sleep” in reference to a dead person is the figure of speech “euphemism”, an expression of a harsh truth in less harsh terms (simply put).
    Speaking of dead people only sleeping in the way as you do above appears to me to give a false impression, rather close to what certain religions teach as “soul sleep”, closely linked to “immortal soul” philosophies, etc … in addition, it almost sounds you are contradicting yourself, which is obviously not what you intended to do

    That’s why Jesus also said, “he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.”

    Do I understand you correctly that in essence Jesus said the same thing twice, just using a somewhat different wording and also changing the meaning of “live” as well as “die” from one statement to the other (“live” referring to eternal life in one sentence and earthly life now in the other, “die” referring to what you called permanent death in one and the end of earth life in the other?

    I have a times wondered if Jesus was perhaps pointing (a) to those believers who lived and died prior to the resurrection at his coming in the last day, and (b) to those believers who live at the time of his coming and who will not die but be changed …

    But then, as I wrote earlier … still have my question rather than a good answer.

  7. on 15 Mar 2013 at 1:24 pmSarah

    Wolfgang,

    The use of the term “sleep” in reference to a dead person is the figure of speech “euphemism”, an expression of a harsh truth in less harsh terms (simply put).

    It may be a euphemism, but it’s a Biblical one. I don’t believe the Bible refers to death as sleep merely to soften the impact. Sleeping and waking is often used as an analogy for death and resurrection. So the primary Biblical purpose for referring to death as “sleep” is to illustrate the fact that people will one day “awaken” from death.

    (Dan 12:2) “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

  8. on 15 Mar 2013 at 2:30 pmJas

    “Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die”

    Wolfgang
    “will live even if he dies” is stating there will be a first resurection by the example of Lazarus. A physical resurrection here on earth during the millennium and “everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die” is those living during the millennium which the 2nd death still will not hold them. There will be death during the millennium because anyone who dies before 100 years old will be considered a child and accursed as spoken in Isaiah . Do you believe after you die and your changed that you can die? If not then what you believe is not scriptural .

  9. on 15 Mar 2013 at 3:45 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    your invented interpretation of the words of Jesus in Joh 11:23-26 is noted as being “far out” of context and having nothing to do with what Martha could have understood Jesus to be saying …
    You give us a nice example of an interpretation based on some unscriptural assumptions rather than on what the text actually says.

  10. on 15 Mar 2013 at 3:52 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    It is perfectly clear if you dont ignore the prophets, but since you do I expected nothing less than your baseless response.

  11. on 15 Mar 2013 at 3:52 pmWolfgang

    Hi anyone,
    does somebody actually underrstand what Jas is trying to say with his explanation of Jesus’ words from Joh 11?

  12. on 15 Mar 2013 at 4:08 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    your inventions are far too complicate …. somewhat typical theological exegesis. On the contrary, truth is simple !

    Just for clarification: I don’t ignore the prophets … as you falsely claim! Seems to me that you are the one who is doing exactly that of which you accuse me!

  13. on 15 Mar 2013 at 4:19 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Not only do you ignore them ,you work exceedingly hard at it. You flat out ignore Jer 30-31,Is 65-66,Ez 40-48 and so on and so.
    You dont have a single verse that could be taken literal or figurative that supports you denial of a physical resurrection.

  14. on 15 Mar 2013 at 8:58 pmtimothy

    Jas, #8

    What is going to happen with these people, “in that day”, when they are resurrected? :

    Matthew 7:…..(kjv)
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    22 Many will say to me “in that day”, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    #8
    “Do you believe after you die and your changed that you can die? If not then what you believe is not scriptural .”

  15. on 15 Mar 2013 at 9:09 pmJas

    What is going to happen with these people, “in that day”, when they are resurrected? ”
    Timothy
    These people are those living when the millennium starts. This verse mentions nothing about these people being resurrected. They will live in other nations .

    “Do you believe after you die and your changed that you can die? If not then what you believe is not scriptural .”

    If I am resurrected or given citizenship into the restored kingdom of Israel then according to the prophets I could still die .If I am not resurrected till after the millennium then if I am judged worthy by matters of love then I cant die ever again

  16. on 16 Mar 2013 at 12:49 amtimothy

    Jas,

    This sounds like “once saved always saved”.

    #5
    “If I am resurrected or given citizenship into the restored kingdom of Israel then according to the prophets I could still die .If I am not resurrected till after the millennium then if I am judged worthy by [matters of love] then I cant die ever again”

    [matters of love]

    you are patient
    you are kind
    you do not envy
    you do not boast
    you are not proud
    you are not rude
    you are not self-seeking
    you are not easly angered
    you keep no record of wrongs
    you do not delight in evil
    you rejoice with truth
    you always protect
    you always trust
    you always hope
    you always persevere
    you always love

    So, peradventure(kjv), you move to Colorado where one may legally continue smoking mary jane and you start sorcery again and/but only just a little to get you through the hard times.

    Now what happens to your unconditional salvation.

  17. on 16 Mar 2013 at 2:54 amWolfgang

    Jas

    Not only do you ignore them ,you work exceedingly hard at it. You flat out ignore Jer 30-31,Is 65-66,Ez 40-48 and so on and so.

    Once again, you just accuse someone falsely …

    When someone doesn’t agree with your interpretation of certain passages in Scripture, then — according to you — that person is “ignoring” and even “working eceedingly hard at ignoring” them. The problem is, you are blind to the fact that you might be the one who is ignoring what a passage says because of your false interpretation!

    You dont have a single verse that could be taken literal or figurative that supports you denial of a physical resurrection.

    See above … it’s only in comparison to YOUR interpretation that YOU do not see any passages in Scripture which plainly tell and indicate that the resurrection will NOT be a resurrection in a physical body … 1Co 15 is about “as plain as your nose on your face” … and even states that the body with which one is resurrected is a SPIRITUAL body. You — and others here as well — insist that scripture reads “resurrected with a PHYSICAL body”

    Your particular “millennialist theology” is causing your misunderstanding … but you still should not falsely accuse others of ignoring Scripture or denying the prophets …. just because you are the one who insists on a different doctrine and theology regarding certain passages of Scripture.

  18. on 16 Mar 2013 at 3:01 amWolfgang

    Jas (#15)

    you write in reply to a question about Mt 7:21-23

    These people are those living when the millennium starts. This verse mentions nothing about these people being resurrected. They will live in other nations .

    a simple regard to the context of the passage reveals that Jesus obviously in his sermon on the mount was talking to people who were present then and teaching them about the importance of how they should live in light of entering the kingdom of God and thus what would happen to them when the time of “that day” would be …

    Why would Jesus be explaining to his audience what some people who are born and living thousands of years later at a future millennial time might do and say?

  19. on 16 Mar 2013 at 3:39 amSheryl

    Wolfgang… I haven’t read this entire post, but do I understand you correctly that you do not believe we will have a bodily resurrection, but a non-physical spiritual resurrection? If that is true, why did Jesus invite Thomas to feel the holes in his hands and side…and why did he eat fish for breakfast with the disciples? Also, what, if not our bodies, is being called up out of the grave? If resurrection is spiritual, why do our bodies lie dormant and our thoughts and remembrances ceased? It would make more sense that our spirits would just float up to Heaven to be immediately with God, Jesus and the angels. Wait, I’ve heard that before somewhere….Oh yeah! Every mainstream church I’ve ever attended! Sorry for sounding flippant..but if Jesus is our example and the “first fruit” then I believe we will experience what he experienced in his glorified “body” which signifies to me, clearly, that we will also be resurrected with a physical glorified body.

  20. on 16 Mar 2013 at 4:18 amtimothy

    Sheryl,

    Hello…I have many times, given verse by verse descriptions of the resurrected body and so forth. Even as an answer to your questions and written to you. I can not remember name of the threads.

    So, in a few words….if you will read very, very carefully…..and remember what you read, and ponder and muse about all the details, you will see and understand…and be sure to pray and ask GOD and Jesus, to show you what You want to see.

    Here is an example about plain as day details from the fish for breakfast passages.

    Jesus is not a GHOST or phantom.

    He has a flesh and bone body.(all his blood was given as a sacrifice)

    So his “firstfruits from the dead” body must run on spiritual power.

    He did eat and drink and talk.

    And everything else that is written, plus a very detailed explanation in 1 Corinthians 15…….

  21. on 16 Mar 2013 at 7:08 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    I think there was a thread in which I mentioned various details regarding Jesus’ resurrection, the reasons for him appearing in his former physical body for 40 days, etc. … unfortunately I don’t remember the name of the thread, name of the article under which those comments were made.

    Think of it … did Thomas see and feel Jesus’ glorified body or the body which had the wounds in it? Or are you saying that the resurrected body will have the same things and be in the same condition as the body at the point of death (except that it is now made alive again)? Why does Scripture put such emphasis on Jesus being dead and in the grave for only a short time so that his body would not see corruption? Are all dead people in the same position as Jesus was at the resurrection in that their bodies have not seen corruption? After the resurrection, Jesus in his spiritual body seems to have
    been invisible, and was only seen by his disciples when he appeared (made himself visible, for example, when he took on the physical form of his previous body ) to them? If he had been living in a physical body, there would not have been any need to “appear” (make yourself visible) because he would have always been visible and could have been seen even from afar off, etc ….

    Just a few thoughts for your consideration …. I’ll leave it at that.

  22. on 16 Mar 2013 at 9:33 amRay

    I wonder what Lazarus experienced of God during the time he was “dead”. Did he experience things by the spirit of God, because
    he was a believer in Christ? If he did, whatever he saw or heard may have been like a dream once he came back to life in this world.

    Then again, he may have simply been asleep without anything much to report back about.

    Still, I wonder.

  23. on 16 Mar 2013 at 10:29 amJas

    This sounds like “once saved always saved”.

    Timothy
    What does being judged worthy by matters of love have to do with “once saved always saved”?How does my statement even claim that I will be saved from eternal death? You will be judged by your treatment of your fellow human during the GWThrone judgment . Where do you read anything about unconditional salvation in any post I have made. All I have stated is we will be shown the truth and have our judgment mediated by Jesus which is GRACE.

    Wolfgang
    How is reading the words of the prophets at face value an interpretation . When a verse is So Perfectly Clear there is no need to reinterpret. Why dont you give one Clear verse that supports your belief like I have done over and over again which your only defense was we cant take it as literal if we are going to spiritualize .
    Yes you flat out ignore the words of the prophets and replace them with yours

  24. on 16 Mar 2013 at 11:03 amJas

    “Or are you saying that the resurrected body will have the same things and be in the same condition as the body at the point of death (except that it is now made alive again)?”

    Wolfgang
    Rev 5 is very clear that Jesus is still in that physical body with his wounds. Verse 6b also makes it clear that He is able to be there in heaven because of the indwelling of Holy Spirit

    5:6 Then I saw standing in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb that appeared to have been killed.. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

  25. on 16 Mar 2013 at 11:25 amWolfgang

    Jas

    How is reading the words of the prophets at face value an interpretation .

    are you really that ignorant ? any reading of anything by itself amounts to nothing … only when the mind understands and interprets the information it receives do those words have a meaning … that you mention “at face value” shows which interpretation you give what you read

  26. on 16 Mar 2013 at 11:29 amSarah

    Timothy,

    You wrote to Sheryl:

    Hello…I have many times, given verse by verse descriptions of the resurrected body and so forth. Even as an answer to your questions and written to you. I can not remember name of the threads.

    I think you may have misunderstood her post. My understanding of what she has written (and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, Sheryl) is that she strongly believes in a bodily resurrection. She was actually disagreeing with Wolfgang.

  27. on 16 Mar 2013 at 11:30 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    Rev 5 is very clear that Jesus is still in that physical body with his wounds. Verse 6b also makes it clear that He is able to be there in heaven because of the indwelling of Holy Spirit

    are you reading the same Bible we are reading?
    Or did you want to give us another example of your invented interpretations?

    I certainly read nothing in Rev 5 of what you claimed above … did anyone else read what Jas claims is recorded in Rev 5?

  28. on 16 Mar 2013 at 11:31 amJas

    Wolfgang
    Yes there are many passages that CLEAR that we can take at face value without reinterpreting. Your method if used by christianity today would increase the denominations of churches from 30k+ to almost 2 billion .

  29. on 16 Mar 2013 at 11:38 amJas

    “are you reading the same Bible we are reading?”

    Wolfgang
    Was the verse I used from your bible?

  30. on 16 Mar 2013 at 11:42 amJas

    “are you really that ignorant ?”

    Wolfgang
    Yes if you logic is the opposite of ignorant.

  31. on 17 Mar 2013 at 1:20 amSheryl

    Sarah and Timothy…. Yes, I strongly believe in a bodily resurrection. Doesn’t the bible say that in the age to come the saints will be ruling the Kingdom alongside our King? And that a man who dies at 200 (I might be off a few years…) would be considered a young man? And we will be present at the wedding feast? I can’t imagine scenes like that without a physical bodily presence. I do understand that it was necessary for the likes of Thomas to see Jesus’ former physical body to prove a resurrection occurred so the gospel could explode across the countries….but the bible doesn’t say anything about Jesus’ body changing to anything different after his visible ascension. In fact, he is visible in bodily form for John to write The Revelation. I see more biblical evidence for physical rather spiritual resurrection. Your comments are compelling, Wolfgang, but I believe we are to understand Jesus’ resurrection as an example of what we will be. No one knows exactly what their own glorified body will be like. But if Jesus was able to manifest a physical body in whatever form he desires, why shouldn’t we be able to? So… a physical resurrection seems appropriate….a body filled completely with holy spirit.

  32. on 17 Mar 2013 at 3:59 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    I do understand that it was necessary for the likes of Thomas to see Jesus’ former physical body to prove a resurrection occurred

    the purpose of Jesus appearing in his former physical body was not just for the benefit of Thomas, but for the purpose of proof in general … since otherwise nobody could have had proof that it was indeed “this same Jesus” who had been resurrected from the dead. The spiritual body is invisible … spirit is invisible! Only when a spirit being is manifested in a physical form does it become visible to the human eye. The eye then sees the manifested physical form or shape, but not the actual spiritual body. That is why the resurrected Jesus, having a spiritual body (it is the spiritual body which is the glorified body), could not be seen as it is invisible. Only when he manifested himself, when he appeared, to his disciples (in his former body) did they see and recognize him.
    The body with the wounds was not the glorified body, for a spiritual body does NOT have any “wounds” … or will a person who has been beheaded have a resurrected glorified body without a head ?

    Wolfgang, but I believe we are to understand Jesus’ resurrection as an example of what we will be.

    Indeed .. but let’s not MISUNDERSTAND Jesus’ resurrection … in thinking that the spiritual body is the physical body we had at the time of death

    No one knows exactly what their own glorified body will be like.

    Indeed, but we do know that it is a spiritual body, not a physical one.

    But if Jesus was able to manifest a physical body in whatever form he desires, why shouldn’t we be able to?

    See here you are mixing up matters …. here you now talk about “was able to manifest a physical body in whatever form he desires”, before you talked about being resurrected with the physical body we had before (more directly there was mention of that only that body could be raised out of the grave, etc) These are two entirely different things!
    Just because Jesus manifested himself, appeared (in his previous physical body) during 40 days after his resurrection to provide indisputable proof of his resurrection, does not mean that others will also manifest, appear in physical bodies … for no further proof is needed. Jesus’ resurrection from the dead was the proof that resurrection was possible, no further proof for anyone else is needed (cp 1Co 15:!ff)
    A further thought about the spiritual body and how resurrected (as well as changed) believers are after having received their spiritual body: Jesus did in a discourse with some who doubted the resurrection mention the following about it:

    Mt 22:30 (KJV)
    For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Now, were are the angels of God? In heaven! What kind of body do they have? A spiritual body. Are they visible to the human eye in their spiritual body? No.

  33. on 17 Mar 2013 at 6:21 amtimothy

    Sheryl, Sarah, Tim(aka Antioch) and Wolfgang,

    I have endeavored to share, just as Wolfgang has too, minute details I have learned after many years of 2 Timothy 2:15 style studying. I even learned the same methods of letting the word interpret itself, and as with Wolfgang, my major learning came from TWI. And by the way I would not be here today and this KR blog and Seans father who makes this all possible, would not be here either. Sean is hitch hiking, IMHO.

    I have the means to write one more time and send Sheryl an E mail, Sarah and Tim a FB message and Skype with Wolfgang.

    Xavier, Sean and many others are too hooked up with The Atlanta Bible College SAB and the anti VPW hateful judging. It seems to me like the biblical word necromancer, romancing the dead. Where seemly intelligent volk talk by writing here about a man who has been dead for almost 30 years. A man, who almost sixty years ago, took a stand for accuracy verses religion and was a bigger campaigner against the triune GOD, the trinity and making Jesus Christ GOD, than any of these “cult like” unintarian groups supported here.

    Xavier, in a private, FB message exchange, accused Wolfgang, myself and Seans dad RVF of being possesed by the VPW devil spirit. He also contradicts teaching from Wolfgang and myself and is anti receiving the holy spirit into manifestation, the MOST foundational of all Christian spiritual matters needed today.

    Jas jumps on what every Wolfgang and I have written with his anti oxymoronish theology. It is a waste of time to have a moderator who sits on the side and then writes a devious anti holy spirit baptism artical, and so playing the devils advocate.

    I have only once to give what GOD through Jesus teaches. That Jesus Christ was a perfect, living human being, in a living human being physical body, whose soul life was in his red blood and his breathing oxygen that made him a living human soul and his blood red.

    Before his passion and resurrection Jesus was not a spirit being like an angel. He had holy spirit “upon him”, just as his great, great and greater grand father King David of the tribe of Judah. And our cloud of OT prophet witnesses.

    I see that here a “physical body” is being spoken of in a ignorant, confused manner. And only Wolfgang and I seem to be able to read 1 Corinthian, which has the whole ball of wax, and see “one type of flesh and another kind of flesh”…a natural man(see above description of Jesus) can not inter the Kingdom of GOD, Jesus only was ready to enter the Kingdom of GOD when he became the first fruits from the dead, raised with a spiritual physical body.

    A physical, spiritual body of flesh and bones; no blood. Jesus gave his blood/life as an offering. The new, resurrected body, must be an alive, physical body running on spirit. The exact detail are not there to be found. It is however revealed that when he appears the christian will see him as he is…be the same as he is, figure.

    So aufweidersehen/widerhallen

    Timothy

  34. on 17 Mar 2013 at 6:50 amXavier

    timothy

    Xavier, in a private, FB message exchange, accused Wolfgang, myself and Seans dad RVF of being possesed by the VPW devil spirit.

    This is what I wrote to you on FB:

    We reject the 9-all-the-time and non-water baptism of The Way. Are you familiar with our ministry? focusonthekingdom.org

    The VW “spirit” still lives in people like Wolfgang and Vince.

    I don’t see “devil spirit” in there does anyone else?

    Are there are any other moderators on here apart from Sean [who has been notified] with the power to stop the endless nasty, personal attacks?

    This is really not a good testimony for the world to see.

  35. on 17 Mar 2013 at 9:28 amSarah

    Timothy,

    I am extremely disappointed in your previous post. Slander and strife have no place in the body of Christ.

    Jas and Wolfgang,

    Is there any way you could keep your exchanges with each other more positive and less accusatory? It’s neither encouraging nor edifying to read an unending ping-pong match of insults involving accusations of ignorance and so forth.

    I just really want to see the positive, Christ-like tone of this blog restored!

  36. on 17 Mar 2013 at 10:58 amJas

    Sarah
    You are right I should have just ignored that, I am usually very good at that as you saw when Timothy claimed I had a brain disorder called hypograhia and a few other things. I even withheld discussing certain topics with him unless he promised not to get so emotional over them which he has kept other than claiming that we are all in error but if we read TWI book we would be cured and his attack in last post.

  37. on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:21 amWolfgang

    Xavier,

    Timothy

    Xavier, in a private, FB message exchange, accused Wolfgang, myself and Seans dad RVF of being possesed by the VPW devil spirit.

    This is what I wrote to you on FB:

    We reject the 9-all-the-time and non-water baptism of The Way. Are you familiar with our ministry? focusonthekingdom.org

    The VW “spirit” still lives in people like Wolfgang and Vince.

    I don’t see “devil spirit” in there does anyone else?

    I don’t see the words “devil spirit” in there either …. albeit, are you now meaning to tell us that you consider the “VW ‘spirit'” to be a good or godly spirit? IF so, why are you constantly slandering him and his works as being non-godly, false doctrine, etc …implying in essence the same thing as what Timothy understood to be and then called “devil”-spirit?

    Are you saying the “VW ‘spirit'” is a good or an evil (devil influenced) spirit ?

  38. on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:31 amWolfgang

    Carlos / Xavier

    I am rejecting your claim that the “VW ‘spirit”” lives in me !

    IF you include such things as what has been brought into this exchange about VPW’s doctrine and especially ertain things about his personal conduct, etc … you are totally wrong and falsely accuse not only me but others (such as Vince Finnegan) !

    YOU are the one who ought to be dismissed for your uncalled for false accusations from this blog by a moderator, not those whom you falsely accuse!

    It seems indeed that you and some others are participating here not for the purpose of contributing your scriptural insights and understanding but for the purpose of promoting your / your father-in-law’s ministry.

    To clarify, so you and others don’t falsely accuse me …. I have no ministry and thus I am certainly NOT promoting any ministry or group! In my contributions I have endeavored to share my understanding and insights into biblical passages and biblical topics.

    And yes, at times I have let some hear “the echo” of their way of writing and been purposely short, direct, and letting others reap the character of writing which they had sown!

  39. on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:41 amJas

    Wolfgang
    How does 1 Cor 15 actually support your belief. Should we reinterpret the rest of the bible by it or understand 1 Cor 15 by the rest of the bible.
    How are we to understand this verse
    15:24 Then 14 comes the end, 15 when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power.
    Do you claim the first resurrection and the reign of Jesus proir to 70ad which you claim as the end. Could it be that those entering Heaven on earth after the GWThrone judgement and after death and hell are destroyed will receive 100%spiritual bodies and those of the first resurrection just receive purified bodies like the one that lasted almost 1000 years for Adam.

  40. on 17 Mar 2013 at 12:12 pmJas

    15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

    Wolfgang
    How are we to interpret this verse which shows the order which I see as.
    1. Jesus as the first of firstfruits in 31ad
    2. Firstfruits(PLURAL) at first resurrection still in future
    3. Those that belong to Jesus (Every man and woman that ever lived who Jesus bought back by his own blood) after the millennium

  41. on 17 Mar 2013 at 12:42 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Reading Micah 6,7 this morning…

    He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
    And what does the Lord require of you?
    To act justly and to love mercy
    and to walk humbly with your God.

    I second Sarah’s comments about the ping-pong arguments. Really guys? Is this what we are to provide as a Christian example? So righteous in your worldly understanding – where is your humility?

  42. on 17 Mar 2013 at 1:08 pmJas

    Tim
    Actually in my reading of this blog I have seen almost everyone here cross that line. Yes sometimes a discussion gets a little heated which a good reading of the gospels will show some heated debates between Jesus and a few groups. What is important is the motive which in my response to Wolfgang was just retaliation which I should not of done. I have seen each and everyone one of you do the same but I am thankful still that you brought mine to my attention .

  43. on 17 Mar 2013 at 1:49 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    How does 1 Cor 15 actually support your belief. Should we reinterpret the rest of the bible by it or understand 1 Cor 15 by the rest of the bible.

    1Co 15 supports my belief by what it says.

    I suggest to understand 1Co15 in light of its context (textual and historical) as well as the overall scope of Scripture.

  44. on 17 Mar 2013 at 1:56 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Then present all textual and historical evidence ,then provide verses and passages that supports or are supported by it.

  45. on 17 Mar 2013 at 1:56 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

    Wolfgang
    How are we to interpret this verse which shows the order which I see as.
    1. Jesus as the first of firstfruits in 31ad
    2. Firstfruits(PLURAL) at first resurrection still in future

    Jesus IS the firstfruits … there are no other “firstfruits”; the plural being used is simply part of the comparison made.
    The verse says nothing about a “first of firstfruits” … nor does it say anything about a “first resurrection” …

    3. Those that belong to Jesus (Every man and woman that ever lived who Jesus bought back by his own blood) after the millennium

    nor does it say anything about a millennium.

    The verse states that Christ was the first to be resurrected (figuratively emphasized by calling him “the firstfruits”), next were those who belong to him at Christ’s coming.

  46. on 17 Mar 2013 at 2:04 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    Then present all textual and historical evidence ,then provide verses and passages that supports or are supported by it.

    I did not say “textual or historical evidence” … I said “context” …

    For textual context, simply consider 1Co 15, various other passages which address the topic of resurrection from the dead, passages which address “the coming of the Lord”, etc.
    For historical context, consider the time of writing of the epistle, etc.

  47. on 17 Mar 2013 at 2:11 pmJas

    2 Thessalonians 2:13
    But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief
    Revelation 14:1-20
    Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. …
    Revelation 14:4
    It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,

    Wolfgang
    The firstfruits are plural because they are many but yet few

  48. on 17 Mar 2013 at 2:15 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Please provide actual evidence for textual and historical context and verses or passages from bible that supports your understanding

  49. on 17 Mar 2013 at 2:27 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,

    REDEEMED is not the same as RESURRECTED, is it?

  50. on 17 Mar 2013 at 2:30 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    Please provide actual evidence for textual and historical context and verses or passages from bible that supports your understanding

    just read the same passages you have been reading all along …

    You know, there are no different passages in the Bible who would support my understanding or your understanding, we are reading the same passages.

    I would have thought, you would have noticed that already some time ago …

  51. on 17 Mar 2013 at 2:32 pmWolfgang

    Hi all

    I’ll leave this for now as is … no need for me to write anything further at this time on this particular matter.

  52. on 17 Mar 2013 at 2:36 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    This redemption could very well be the first resurrection or maybe it is those who will be part of first resurrection .

    I am am going to ask again if you would please provide actual evidence for textual and historical context and verses or passages from bible that supports your understanding.

  53. on 17 Mar 2013 at 5:08 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    I am am going to ask again if you would please provide actual evidence for textual and historical context and verses or passages from bible that supports your understanding.

    and I can only repeat what I already wrote … they will be the very passages you read and have read. There are no different passages from the ones which you already know …
    The difference is in how those passages are understood in light of their context (both textual and historical) and the overall scope of the biblical Scriptures.

  54. on 17 Mar 2013 at 5:30 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Just once actually provide something other than interpretation, there dozens of passages that witness against your understanding that the context stands within that verse or passage like descriptions of places only understood to be upon this planet. There are verses and passages that Israel will be gathered to Their land and will never again be removed. These are just a few that need no interpretation to be understood which all you ever do is claim it is figurative or has been spiritualized. Through my reading you have been ask for the same I am asking for by a half a dozen people here but not once can you provide it. Either you have evidence for textual and historical context or maybe you dont which I can only guess you dont. You always seem to leave a discussion after you have been asked tough questions or for evidence.

  55. on 17 Mar 2013 at 7:46 pmSheryl

    Wow! I kinda feel like I’m a bit of a new student at a well-established school from reading some of the above posts. I never went to bible school (or any college for that matter) and only attended MS churches thru my adult life. I think it’s kinda cool that I don’t have any of the “background” that some of you do here. No criticism intended at all … just noting that I put away all my “indoctrination” at the door of this blog so I could learn afresh. I love all the new and challenging views. It makes me run to my bible to study. I may not agree with everyone but any scrutiny of scripture is valuable. I just hope that our differing interpretations don’t divide us, but enlighten us.

  56. on 18 Mar 2013 at 9:39 amJas

    Mt 22:30 (KJV)
    For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Now, were are the angels of God? In heaven! What kind of body do they have? A spiritual body. Are they visible to the human eye in their spiritual body? No.

    Wolfgang
    The question that brought about this statement was about who’s wife this woman would be. Considering a woman can only enter in to a covenant with a man one time under the law then she will be her first husbands wife during the millennium . Could it be there will be no need for marriage because they are already married . I dont see where this verse even mentions what kind of body they have and definitely doesnt even hint about a spiritual body. If you have been given a physical body like the one Adam had then there will be no need to have children .
    I see Jesus ruling from God’s throne during the millennium which could be placed upon this earth which if it is then Jesus will receive this same body but I see Jesus ruling from heaven during this time and see him gathering all mankind before returning this rule back to God after he rest his Sabbath again.

  57. on 18 Mar 2013 at 10:38 amJas

    NASB ©James 1:18
    In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

    Just a little more on the Firstfruits.
    This verse would literally be translated
    In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we exist as certain firstfruits of his created.

    There is no word in this that means kind. The we in this is those who accepted the Words of the Covenants

  58. on 18 Mar 2013 at 1:04 pmJas

    Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, 1 groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, 2 the redemption of our bodies. 3

    1 tn Or “who have the Spirit as firstfruits.” The genitive πνεύματος (pneumatos) can be understood here as possessive

    Wolfgang
    Yes this redemption as firstfruits is the redemption of their body in the resurrection in which they wait. .
    This redemption is also considered a rebirth as adopted sons and daughters as the wording of James 1:18 “He brought us forth ” means begat. This makes Jesus the first of the firstfruits because he was the first begotten of the dead

  59. on 18 Mar 2013 at 2:01 pmSheryl

    Jas, that’s a great verse. How else do you understand “redemption of our bodies” but that we are to look forward to a physical life in the age to come? If everything is spiritual, why is the New Jerusalem so painstakingly described for us? Why would Jesus tell the disciples that rooms are being prepared for them if they weren’t expecting to live as physical creatures? My understanding of the NT in its entirely seems to fit better with a physical resurrection than spiritual. Then again, our bodies will be 100% full of spirit instead of blood….so maybe each position is correct? …or half correct?

  60. on 18 Mar 2013 at 2:43 pmJas

    Sheryl
    I myself dont see a body without blood in the first resurrection because I see they will be able to die. I see the body as one like Adams, who’s gene pool was pure, with ours being purified somewhat like silver and gold is purified(tried) by fired .Now I do believe that in the second resurrection whoever is judged worthy will have 100% spiritual bodies not capable of death.

  61. on 18 Mar 2013 at 4:38 pmSarah

    Sheryl,

    Then again, our bodies will be 100% full of spirit instead of blood….so maybe each position is correct? …or half correct?

    Do you derive this understanding from the verse where the resurrected Jesus said he was flesh and bone? Personally I believe this is simply an idiom rather than a commentary on anatomical changes in the resurrected body. Reason being, the unfallen Adam had the Spirit of God within him when exclaimed to Eve: “bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh” in Gen 2…yet he still had a circulatory system.

  62. on 18 Mar 2013 at 4:40 pmJas

    Sarah
    Excellent point.

  63. on 18 Mar 2013 at 8:01 pmSheryl

    Good points … I just remember a post awhile back somewhere on here where before resurrection Jesus said “flesh and blood” and post resurrection it was changed to “flesh and bone.” …does the bible say that Adam had blood in his circulatory system before the fall? hmmm…. Wouldn’t that be a great significance of blood if it didn’t occur until Eve ate that fruit….

    If our resurrected bodies die, Jas, how can we have eternal life and not see the second death? How do we put on immortality? I think there will be mortals living during the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. I don’t know if there are different types of beings but I have a sense that there is. I think it’s possible that there are those “outside the kingdom” not allowed in because they are still in sin…and they will be sobbing and angry. And there could be mortals living and dying inside the kingdom as well. But that’s just the picture in my head from things I’ve read in the bible.

    When you say “first resurrection” you don’t mean to say that those alive at Jesus’ coming will receive a glorified body in the twinkling of an eye (changed) and then resurrected to immortality at judgment, do you? I never really thought of it that way….

  64. on 18 Mar 2013 at 9:16 pmJas

    Sheryl
    Eternal life comes after death and hell are destroyed, matter of fact eternal life is the result of deat and hell being destroyed .You will notice in Rev 20 death and hell are not destroyed till after GWThrone judgement. Also it doesnt they will not see second death ,it says the second death will not have power over them or will not hold them.
    I dont see Jesus coming till after the millennium then gathering the dead and those still living from the first resurrection and other nations that weren’t part of the deception of Satan that caused the nations to come against Israel in the battle of Gog and Magog who all die as spoken of in Ez 38-39. All the first resurrection is ,is a fulfillment of all the Covenants that promise possession of land shown and a prolonged life which is one meaning of salvation

  65. on 18 Mar 2013 at 10:55 pmSheryl

    So the beginning of the 1000 year reign has Christ returning and the dead in Christ being resurrected to meet him in the air to begin the saintly 1000 reign (where do you think this will take place?)…in which the saints and priests reign ‘with” Jesus … so I take that as simply meaning he will be here on earth while the devil is locked away. These members of the first resurrection will not taste death… I take that as meaning they will be changed in an instant and receive immortality. (1 Cor 15:52-4) They are resurrected to “life” … not prolonged life.

    Perhaps I am confused regarding when Jesus will return… it just doesn’t seem to make sense to me that he will not reign on earth during the millennium. His feet will touch Mt Zion…I always took that as meaning he will be present for all to see. Do you have a sort of chronological time line of what is supposed to happen at the first and second resurrections … and what part Jesus will have in each? I thought I had a pretty good grasp, but now I’m not so sure.

  66. on 18 Mar 2013 at 11:22 pmJas

    Sheryl
    Do you understand that God will rest again his Sabbath and Jesus will reign over all creation during God’s 7th day then after will return the reign back to God. Maybe Jesus will reign upon God’s throne here on earth but I dont see it. Jesus will gather the dead and those living after the millennium for judgement while the earth is renewed then after that God will bring heaven upon this earth and will dwell amongst mankind as he did with Adam in the garden.
    Can the elect not reign with Jesus if Jesus is in heaven? The Kings of Israel reigned with God when God was in heaven.!
    I believe Jesus will received his reign at the beginning of millennium and Israel will be restored and the elect resurrected and gathered from the 4 corners of the earth as priest to the nations.You know how Paul by vision saw that dead would be gathered first then WE living would be also caught up, this can only be true if he was again alive by the first resurrection . Hebrews 4 will help you understand that being a part of the millennium is entering Gods rest.

  67. on 18 Mar 2013 at 11:58 pmBrian Keating

    Hi Sheryl,

    In comment #63, you referred to another post on this site, which compares the idioms “flesh and blood” and “flesh and bone”. I think you might have been referring to this post:

    Natural Bodies vs. Spiritual Bodies

    The main thrust of that post is that it appears that spiritual bodies are kept alive by Holy Spirit, rather than by blood (regardless of whether any blood actually exists in a spiritual body).

    Brian

  68. on 19 Mar 2013 at 1:02 amSheryl

    I think I have a different understanding of God’s sabbath rest. I always thought God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th…which would mean he set everything in motion and is currently resting (from new creation.)

    My understanding of Jesus’ second coming goes something like this, and please correct me (everyone) if I am in error: Jesus will suddenly appear in the clouds in the same manner that he ascended into Heaven. He and the angels will shout and “wake the dead” who will rise, along with the saints who haven’t fallen asleep. They will meet Jesus as he descends and usher him into Jerusalem much like David’s people rant out to meet him as he entered the city.

    The devil will be locked away and the 1000 year reign will begin during which time the New Jerusalem will be constructed and evil mankind will be defeated. At the end of that period the devil will be let loose for a “short time” and then the second resurrection will begin and judgment will occur, at which time man will be sent either to life or destruction. Then death will be abolished and only holy righteousness will consume the new earth, and Jesus will hand the world back to God.

    Brian, thank you. That was the post I was referring to. You know… I kinda hesitate to say this, but I watched the Twilight movies and I can see how our glorified bodies could be something like that…where blood turns to spirit…all of our DNA is turned on. Well….maybe. 🙂

  69. on 19 Mar 2013 at 9:32 amJas

    NASB ©1 Corinthians 15:24
    then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

    Sheryl
    For what purpose did God give Jesus all authority over heaven and earth. At the end of what does Jesus return this authority.

    Hebrews 4
    4:1 Therefore we must be wary 1 that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it. 4:2 For we had good news proclaimed to us just as they did. But the message they heard did them no good, since they did not join in 2 with those who heard it in faith. 3 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter my rest!’” 4 And yet God’s works 5 were accomplished from the foundation of the world. 4:4 For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,” 6 4:5And again in this place it says, “They shall not enter my rest.”
    “They will never enter my rest!” 4:6 Therefore it remains for some to enter it, yet those to whom it was previously proclaimed did not enter because of disobedience. 4:7 So God 8 again ordains a certain day, “Today,” speaking through David 9 after so long a time, as in the words quoted before, 10 “O, that today you would listen as he speaks! 11 Do not harden your hearts.” 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God 12 would not have spoken afterward about another day. 4:9 Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God. 4:10 For the one who enters God’s 13 rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his own works.

    During Gods first Sabbath Satan had this authority but was reluctant to return it back and has sought to get it back ever since.
    But why think God has been resting when it says God RESTED his Sabbath and Hebrews 4 says he will again .Do you not see that God has been Creating the last 6000 years with Jesus becoming the beginning of a new creation within the 6 days since God rested his Sabbath

  70. on 19 Mar 2013 at 3:00 pmSean

    Timothy,

    I’m not sure if you are still commenting or not. However, I need to issue you an official warning for the following inappropriate comments. For information on our communication policy, please click on the tab at the top of the page. Here are the specific things you said that are not allowable on this blog:

    Xavier, Sean and many others are too hooked up with The Atlanta Bible College SAB and the anti VPW hateful judging.

    This is inappropriate because you are accusing others of “hateful judging.” I (Sean) have not even participated in this thread and yet I am accused. Xavier does not like VPW’s views, but does not hatefully judge him. Either way, this is attacking the person rather than the argument.

    Xavier, in a private, FB message exchange, accused Wolfgang, myself and Seans dad RVF of being possesed by the VPW devil spirit. He also contradicts teaching from Wolfgang and myself and is anti receiving the holy spirit into manifestation, the MOST foundational of all Christian spiritual matters needed today.

    Xavier has already cleared this up in the next comment after Timothy’s where he specifically cited the inflammatory comment on facebook. If someone has personal problems with others, the place to work them out is on facebook or email. Use this blog is primarily for commenting on posts. This is a public forum where comments are read by thousands of people. How we argue is just as important (or more so) than what we argue for.

    Jas jumps on what every Wolfgang and I have written with his anti oxymoronish theology. It is a waste of time to have a moderator who sits on the side and then writes a devious anti holy spirit baptism artical, and so playing the devils advocate

    This comment is extremely inappropriate because it attacks people once again and labels them. Perhaps Jas’ theology seems unusual, but this is no grounds to label him as if there is something wrong with him. As for me (Sean), calling my article defending the Bible (i.e. Matthew 28.19) “devious” and “anti holy spirit” is completely false as well as unwarranted. I don’t even know what to say about the “playing the devils advocate” comment.

    I see that here a “physical body” is being spoken of in a ignorant, confused manner. And only Wolfgang and I seem to be able to read 1 Corinthian, which has the whole ball of wax, and see “one type of flesh and another kind of flesh”…a natural man(see above description of Jesus) can not inter the Kingdom of GOD, Jesus only was ready to enter the Kingdom of GOD when he became the first fruits from the dead, raised with a spiritual physical body.

    Here you accuse your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ of speaking in an ignorant and confused manner. This is attacking people once again. Feel free to attack arguments but never people. Please see the communication policy for relevant Scriptures on this. For example 1 Peter 3.15 commands us to defend our beliefs with gentleness and respect.

    This is your official warning. Please consult the communication policy above for what will happen the next time this behavior occurs.

  71. on 19 Mar 2013 at 6:03 pmJas

    Sean
    I think unorthodox would more define my bibliology but my theology pretty much matches yours.All I am doing showing how I see it and putting it to the test. I think one of blogs objectives under the About explains my objective

    A Place to Propose New Ideas: As we continue to study the Bible in its historical context new concepts and facts come into view. The blog is a great place to propose a new idea and put it to the test. This is especially helpful because if there is a hole in one’s idea someone is likely to point it out so that we can all move closer to the truth on a given matter. Posts in this category include Eschatologically Motivated Ethics and the series of posts called The Politics of the Message.

  72. on 19 Mar 2013 at 10:37 pmSheryl

    Jas, Sorry…I meant to address your question of why God handed authority and power over to Jesus … my idea is that God cannot be where sin is and I believe the age to come is meant to be a return to “in the beginning” At this age, man knows what a disaster sin is, so when Jesus, with all power and authority, vanquishes the evil one and eliminates sin, God will take over and manifest himself on earth as in the beginning when he walked with Adam and Eve. just my thoughts…. I don’t know how biblical that is.

    So my thinking is that Yahweh God is resting from creating … or at least rested until he raised Jesus to be the first new creation…of which we are to follow at the first resurrection. Again…this is just my own understanding.

    I’m not really sure what you mean by “God rested his Sabbath.” I thought the sabbath was a holy day for rest that was created for our benefit. “Sabbath” is a noun so I’m having a hard time catching your meaning here.

    I understand that the “rest” that the Hebrews will never enter is a type of salvation rest that rebellious people now will never enter at judgment. So to me, God’s “rest” here means that our trials and testing will be over when Jesus comes back.

    BTW… I’ve been studying today some ideas about “rapture” and resurrection and how the various bible verses fit together. Probably one of the most intriguing verses regarding Jesus having a physical body at his return might be Job 19:25. Then the very next verse is Job saying that although his current flesh will decay, in the latter days he will be in a new body and able to see God.

  73. on 19 Mar 2013 at 11:28 pmJas

    “why God handed authority and power over to Jesus … my idea is that God cannot be where sin is ”

    Jesus said all authority in heaven and earth. There is no sin in heaven.

    “I’m not really sure what you mean by “God rested his Sabbath.” I thought the sabbath was a holy day for rest that was created for our benefit. “Sabbath” is a noun so I’m having a hard time catching your meaning here.”

    The meaning of the word Sabbath is rest which is an action so no it really isnt a noun but is used in many places as the name of the seventh day of week. Hebrews 4 is not speaking of a day,festival day or year because Joshua allowed them to rest the seventh day and allowed the land to rest its seventh year. This Sabbath is God’s rest day just like it was in the first creation week of events
    Do you see God resting when he called Abraham,destroyed Sodom,parted Red sea,wrote the Law, etc

    “I understand that the “rest” that the Hebrews will never enter is a type of salvation rest that rebellious people now will never enter at judgment.”

    What do you mean by that rebellious people?
    Do you know there was always an elect while Israel was a nation.
    Many through the OT are spoken of as righteous. What you are speaking of is an invented doctrine of the early church fathers. Hosea is clear int he reference in Romans that God will call Israel His special people again. God can not break Covenants without becoming a liar

  74. on 20 Mar 2013 at 3:54 amSheryl

    Jas … I realize there is no sin in Heaven, but obviously there is plenty of it here on earth. I think that’s why God sent his son to redeem us as his anointed agent. And when Jesus comes and completes his work of ridding the earth of sin, God can take over the kingdom in person and we, like Job, will see him face to face.

    If sabbath means rest, then how can God rest his rest? That is what I find confusing. I believe God can still take action, hear prayers, send angels, etc while he is at rest from creation. When I am relaxing/resting I don’t sit passively and not do anything. Even during rest families still interact. That’s what I mean about God resting from Creation … the work of the first six days.

    I must admit that i come from a background of pure grace and once saved always saved. From reading the bible I don’t believe that now. I do believe that though the gift of grace is unearned and can’t be worked for, we are still required to put forth effort to obey commandments and conform our lives to one fit for the coming kingdom. Where the Sabbath day fits in, I’m not sure. If the Sabbath is meant for man, and not man for the Sabbath…is it God’s will for us, for our own good, to take a day of rest? Or are we sinning by not recognizing a sabbath day? …something tells me there are probably other posts on this topic.

    When Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt toward the promised land, the people rebelled in the desert and turned from God to idols. So God told them they would never enter his rest. That’s the example / type I meant. We don’t want to be like those idolatrous children of God.

    I appreciate very much God’s chosen people, Israel. I do know that there was and still is a remnant and I am grateful to be included in God’s family, along with the original chosen. I don’t know what the invented doctrine is that you are referring to … I didn’t mean to imply that all Israel was rebellious to this day. There is a seductive and compelling movement these days that I find dangerously close to anti Semitic, that blames Jews for nearly every bad thing on earth….but I don’t mean to give the impression that I hold to that.

  75. on 20 Mar 2013 at 9:46 amJas

    Sheryl
    I do understand that God can not be amongst sinful flesh because of Adam sin. But Job shows he can be amongst a sinful angel.
    But God gave Jesus all Authority in Heaven also and this is the authority he returns back to God. I have no problem with Jesus running the heavenly order from earth but just dont see it.
    Actually everytime you see the word Sabbath describing a day it should be read as Sabbath day but the word Sabbath carries the meaning of rest. The seventh year is a rest for the land,beast of burden,fruit trees and vines plus a rest from debt through release and is called a Sabbath. The seventh set of Sabbath years is also a rest through total release of slave debt.
    Gods first Sabbath was after 6 days of creation when he rested from his works but ever since have been working not resting which is why Hebrews 4 states he will rest again.
    As far a as modern day Jews being the elect I dont see how they could be without recognizing Jesus and the changes in sacrificial law but believe many have the last two thousand years have become christians and many today are comming to their King. But this is just those of the southern kingdom of Judah from the remnant that returned from captivity . The bulk of Israel were scattered amongst the gentile nations ,northern kingdom in 722bc and southern kingdom in 586bc which almost all the prophets say they will be gathered in the last days. Now being a true Israelite is through the acceptance of the Covenants not by blood which only a remnant in the OT were this spiritual Israel by being blameless by offering sacrifices with FAITH for their short falls in obeying the Words of the Covenants and that same spiritual Israel can be blameless by entering into a Covenant relationship by accepting the Words of the Covenants (Word of God) then being cleansed of past sins and maintain it by using Jesus as our sin sacrifice with faith.
    This promise to the elect(those in covenant relationship ) can not be broken by God if atleast one person were blameless unless God is a liar. Now men can break this covenant personally but its no great thing for a man to be a liar.

  76. on 20 Mar 2013 at 12:15 pmJas

    I do understand that God can not be amongst sinful flesh because of Adam sin.

    I want to clarify that God can be amongst sinful flesh provided they are covered with sinless flesh such as an animal before mankind produced their own who is Jesus.

  77. on 20 Mar 2013 at 2:32 pmSheryl

    In Acts 1:11 the angel tells the disciples that Jesus will return the same way he left. I suppose you can read different meanings into that…but simply speaking… if I was staying with you and then drove from away your house and you asked someone what I was doing…that “witness” would say, “She’s going but she’ll come back the same way she left” wouldn’t you expect me to drive back to your house? In other words, you wouldn’t expect me to phone you, or send you a video or something…you would expect me to come back just like I drove off. anyway…that’s why i believe Jesus is returning in the flesh and we will be like him (in the “new” flesh) and reign with him in the flesh. I don’t see where Jesus shows up bodily then becomes a spirit…I only see that he appears for everyone to see and reigns for a thousand years on earth. Jesus, after he was resurrected, made a point of telling the disciples to touch his skin, to watch him eat…he made a point of saying that he was NOT spirit…but flesh and bones.

    I totally agree with you about the OT Israelites and the modern Jews. 🙂

  78. on 20 Mar 2013 at 3:19 pmJas

    Sheryl
    I agree that Jesus will return the same way he left ,I just see this as after the millennium . Paul believed he would be alive when this happened and the only way that can be is if he is alive by the first resurrection.
    8:11 I tell you, many will come from the east and west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven

    Why doesnt Jesus include himself at this table.

    “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.’ (Ezekiel 37:21-28)

    Why does Ezekiel say David will be their earthly king. Jesus was raised to be King of Kings not just a King. God currently hold this Title but this is Jesus inheritance while God rest his rest day(Sabbath day) again.
    If Jesus was to return to gather all the dead and living he purchased back then there would be none left for the 2nd resurrection of the Great(Just) and Small (Unjust). Why would they go to him in the heavens if they were going to be on earth. How does the current earth get renewed by fire(2Peter 3:7-13) if people are still on it.After judgement and the renewal of the earth the new city not built by human hands and The Heaven will come upon the renewed earth along with all that were judged worthy of eternal life.

  79. on 21 Mar 2013 at 12:08 amSheryl

    Jas, Jesus didn’t include himself at the banquet because he is the bride-groom … that would be like me saying Easter Dinner is at my house. I don’t think anyone would wonder whether or not I would be there.

    you said: If Jesus was to return to gather all the dead and living he purchased back then there would be none left for the 2nd resurrection

    The second resurrection is reserved for the people who rejected Christ before he appears at the last trump (the end of tribulation) and I would guess at the end of the millennium those people who died (assuming they have accepted Christ) during that 1000 years would also be included in the 2nd res.

    Since I don’t see Jesus being in the heavens during the 1000 years, the people wouldn’t be going to him there. I don’t necessarily understand that the entire earth will be on fire all at the same time, and I do suppose that during the 1000 years there will be some human involvement in returning the earth to its more Eden-like appearance and function.

    Does the bible actually say that New Jerusalem, coming from Heaven like Jesus came from Heaven (but born on earth) is not built by human hands? I don’t have a mind-picture of this gigantic city falling out of the sky, but rather that the plans are “sent” from heaven like the plans of Noah’s ark are sent from heaven.

    I’m going to read the Ezekiel passage later tonight and get back with you on that after some studying. But for starters….I think Jesus is king of kings right now which fits into your idea that God is enjoying his sabbath rest as Jesus has all authority that was given to him by our Father after Jesus’ resurrection.

  80. on 21 Mar 2013 at 8:27 amJas

    “Jas, Jesus didn’t include himself at the banquet because he is the bride-groom … that would be like me saying Easter Dinner is at my house. I don’t think anyone would wonder whether or not I would be there.”

    Sheryl
    I would think it would be more disappointing if they saw Jesus sitting at his table if he was there

    “The second resurrection is reserved for the people who rejected Christ before he appears at the last trump (the end of tribulation) and I would guess at the end of the millennium those people who died (assuming they have accepted Christ) during that 1000 years would also be included in the 2nd res.”

    Sheryl
    Where do I find that mentioned

    “Does the bible actually say that New Jerusalem, coming from Heaven like Jesus came from Heaven (but born on earth) is not built by human hands?”

    NASB ©
    And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

    21:15 The angel 36 who spoke to me had a golden measuring rod with which to measure the city and its foundation stones and wall. 21:16 Now 37 the city is laid out as a square, 38 its length and width the same. He 39 measured the city with the measuring rod 40 at fourteen hundred miles 41 (its length and width and height are equal).

    Sheryl
    Very large city for humans to build. Ezekiel’s has a Temple which is the millennium city

  81. on 21 Mar 2013 at 10:42 amJas

    “Jas, Jesus didn’t include himself at the banquet because he is the bride-groom”

    Sheryl
    Where do you read this is wedding banquet . I dont see Jesus as a bride-groom till after the millennium .

    21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb!”

  82. on 21 Mar 2013 at 1:39 pmWolfgang

    Hi

    has anyone (really) read the quoted verse about the new Jerusalem ?

    NASB ©
    And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

    have you noticed that the description is NOT of literal buildings, walls, streets, etc of a city? the new Jerusalem is PEOPLE …. “a bride adorned for her husband” !!! Or is someone of the opinion that brick buildings makek for a good bride for a husband?

  83. on 21 Mar 2013 at 1:50 pmSheryl

    I think the timeline of Revelation is up to interpretation as well. Do I understand you correctly that you think Jesus will re-appear on earth after the 1000 years?

    so I read Ez 37 last night from a couple different translations. What I get is that Israel and Judah will be bound together and brought back to life at some point…I think after the 1000 years, but I could be wrong. I honestly don’t know why Ezekiel prophecies that their king will be David. It does say they will have one shepherd….it doesn’t necessarily say David is that shepherd. I think possibly the kingship could be referring to the house of David…just speculating.

    As I was praying about it this morning though…. it occurred to me that the “dry bones” that are brought back to life in Ezekiel’s vision represent the Jews who are asleep, but not in Christ. So they will be part of the second resurrection and will recognize David as their king…but will soon realize Jesus is the King of kings…thus the king over David…and their one shepherd. I would guess that people like these would be considered righteous and wouldn’t receive the second death.

    So who is the bride? I always thought it was the church….which would be the dead in Christ who are raised first when Jesus re-appears at the last trumpet. I was taught (indoctrinated?) about the wedding feast … I’d have to do a biblos.com search to find where that comes from…or if it’s even biblical. I guess the parable about the wedding feast signifies the banquet would be something like that.

    The last trump comes after the plagues are poured out of the seven bowls…which I understand comes after the 7 years of tribulation. This is when the angel wants to show John the bride of the Lamb, which is then pictured as the New Jerusalem…the Kingdom, and the inhabitants will be Jesus’ church. I am comfortable with 7 years of tribulation, Jesus reappearing in the flesh on Mt Zion to defeat the enemy and lock away the evil one and usher in the 1000 years reign from the New Jerusalem. And again….I don’t see the city floating out of the sky in reality, like John sees in his vision — any more than Jesus floated out of the sky when God “sent” him as our savior. I can see that a literal city construction can take place in these 1000 years … like the 9 months it took for Jesus to be fully formed in Mary’s womb. It wouldn’t make sense for John to have a vision of the actual construction of the city. And no…it wouldn’t be mere human hands doing the construction. The risen dead in Christ will have glorified bodies, and we don’t know what wonders these bodies will be capable of.

  84. on 21 Mar 2013 at 2:05 pmJas

    “have you noticed that the description is NOT of literal buildings, walls, streets, etc of a city? ‘

    Wolfgang
    It has a wall,gates,foundations,streets and has measurements givien for its size. So no, because it is literal things in the literal city.

    “Or is someone of the opinion that brick buildings makek for a good bride for a husband?”

    Yes it is spoken of in OT that Israel was to be married to the land.
    {4} Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. {5} For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

    Maybe you should understand and accept what God reveals instead of reinterpretation to fit your belief

    21:11 The city possesses 26 the glory of God; its brilliance is like a precious jewel, like a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 27 21:12 It has 28 a massive, high wall 29 with twelve gates, 30 with twelve angels at the gates, and the names of the twelve tribes of the nation of Israel 31 are written on the gates. 32 21:13 There are 33 three gates on the east side, three gates on the north side, three gates on the south side and three gates on the west side. 34 21:14 The 35 wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    21:15 The angel 36 who spoke to me had a golden measuring rod with which to measure the city and its foundation stones and wall. 21:16 Now 37 the city is laid out as a square, 38 its length and width the same. He 39 measured the city with the measuring rod 40 at fourteen hundred miles 41 (its length and width and height are equal). 21:17 He also measured its wall, one hundred forty-four cubits 42 according to human measurement, which is also the angel’s. 43 21:18 The city’s 44 wall is made 45 of jasper and the city is pure gold, like transparent glass. 46 21:19 The foundations of the city’s wall are decorated 47 with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation is jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, 48 the fourth emerald, 21:20 the fifth onyx, 49 the sixth carnelian, 50 the seventh chrysolite, 51 the eighth beryl, 52 the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, 53 the eleventh jacinth, 54 and the twelfth amethyst. 21:21 And the twelve gates are twelve pearls – each one of the gates is made from just one pearl! The 55 main street 56 of the city is pure gold, like transparent glass.

    21:22 Now 57 I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God – the All-Powerful 58 – and the Lamb are its temple. 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, because the glory of God lights it up, and its lamp is the Lamb. 21:24 The nations 59 will walk by its light and the kings of the earth will bring their grandeur 60 into it. 21:25 Its gates will never be closed during the day 61 (and 62 there will be no night there). 63 21:26 They will bring the grandeur and the wealth 64 of the nations 65 into it, 21:27 but 66 nothing ritually unclean 67 will ever enter into it, nor anyone who does what is detestable 68 or practices falsehood, 69 but only those whose names 70 are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

  85. on 21 Mar 2013 at 2:17 pmJas

    As I was praying about it this morning though…. it occurred to me that the “dry bones” that are brought back to life in Ezekiel’s vision represent the Jews who are asleep, but not in Christ.

    Sheryl
    Actually these bones represent the elect of Israel,the Saints of the first resurrection who never received the mark of the beast but had the mark of God on their forehead and hand. There was only a few signs given to mark the Israel of God which are available today . The Law,the Sabbath,and the Festivals ,everything that opposes that is not the mark of the elect of the first resurrection

  86. on 21 Mar 2013 at 2:28 pmJas

    The last trump comes after the plagues are poured out of the seven bowls…which I understand comes after the 7 years of tribulation.

    Sheryl
    You are correct that Revelation is not in order.After the 1000 years Satan will be loosed to deceive the nations so the last trump will come after the millennium right before the earth is destroyed and renewed by fire.

  87. on 21 Mar 2013 at 3:00 pmSheryl

    Hmm….then the order of events is up to interpretation? Better to interpret using the rest of the bible as a guide…which means lots of studying!

    I don’t get how the bones represent the elect of Israel … the Saints. The verse clearly references the broken Israel (two sticks bound together as one) … not modern-day Israelis. And those righteous individuals who die before Jesus is revealed (old dry bones…dead for a LONG time) cannot possibly be raised at the first resurrection because they can’t be “in Christ.” There are certainly Jews by blood who have accepted Christ but I don’t see a biblical difference between the Jews and Gentiles who have accepted Christ.

    Psalm 132:11-18 is illuminating…however I can’t put a timeline on it…so the dwelling place of Zion could be during the millennium or after, as you say. But it is surely on earth.

  88. on 21 Mar 2013 at 3:21 pmJas

    I don’t get how the bones represent the elect of Israel … the Saints. The verse clearly references the broken Israel (two sticks bound together as one) … not modern-day Israelis. And those righteous individuals who die before Jesus is revealed (old dry bones…dead for a LONG time) cannot possibly be raised at the first resurrection because they can’t be “in Christ.”

    Sheryl
    I not sure where you get that OT Israel was not in Christ. The sacrifical system was set up to point to Jesus. So everyone who tookpart with faith in the sacrificial system are most certainly in the anointed Lamb. Actually when Abel offered his blood sacrifice he was also in the anointed Lamb. 99.9% of Christians will be the Great in the 2nd resurrection because they were deceived by Satan into worshipping Babylon but God will still give them Grace and judge them by matters of love of their fellow human just as he will do the same for the small who are not christians .
    I myself will be a part of the Great unless something changes or is revealed to me that will prove I am worthy of being part of the elect

  89. on 21 Mar 2013 at 3:46 pmJas

    37:11 Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are all the house of Israel. Look, they are saying, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope has perished; we are cut off.’ 37:12 Therefore prophesy, and tell them, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Look, I am about to open your graves and will raise you from your graves, my people. I will bring you to the land of Israel. 37:13 Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and raise you from your graves, my people. 37:14 I will place my breath 13 in you and you will live; I will give you rest in your own land. Then you will know that I am the Lord – I have spoken and I will act, declares the Lord.’”
    13 tn Or “spirit.”

    Sheryl
    Yea what God promises is the truth. He does place his Spirit in them and resurrects and gathers them from the four winds . God is a person of truth.
    You know what is the funny thing about this discussion. You will receive salvation the way you understand it as eternal life with God and Jesus but after the rewards that were promises to those of the Covenants and so will every christian who believes they go straight to heaven after they die because there is no concept of time in sleeping.

  90. on 21 Mar 2013 at 3:57 pmWolfgang

    quite amazing what kind of speculations you all come up with concerning the supposedly future millennium …

  91. on 21 Mar 2013 at 4:01 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Aint the Word of God beautiful when the word of God is true to its words

  92. on 22 Mar 2013 at 1:25 amSheryl

    I totally agree with you about salvation coming the next moment from death. Anyone who’s had general anesthesia can understand that passing of time won’t be experienced.

    So Jas, are you saying that we will be in heaven after resurrection? Because in my studies it seems there are many OT verses indicating an earthly residence….or do you believe we will be in heaven part of the time? Also, I’m curious as to your definition of The Elect.

    I always wondered how OT Israel was sanctified….you help me to understand that. They did believe and hope for a coming Messiah, so in that sense I would agree that they were “in Christ.”

    Hey Wolfgang…don’t knock us as we learn!! 😀 How do you interpret the “1000 year” verses …. just wondering.

  93. on 22 Mar 2013 at 1:47 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    How do you interpret the “1000 year” verses …. just wondering.

    I haven’t read “1000 year” verses (plural)?

    I remember one single verse in Rev 20, which doesn’t say what many make of it in order to then get off on a whole “millennium speculation theology” … reading that one verse in context of the whole book with its clear time frame given at both the beginning of the book and at the end of the book, I understand that the verse obviously is not speaking of a literal 1000 year time period (such as “not 999 years, not 1001 years, but exactly literallly 1000 years), rather the number 1000 is used figuratively.

    A similar use of 1000 is found in a passage which speaks about “having cattle on a 1000 hills” (it is obvious there as well that 1000 is not meant in the sense of exactly 1000, and not 999 or 1001)

  94. on 22 Mar 2013 at 8:05 amJas

    “So Jas, are you saying that we will be in heaven after resurrection? Because in my studies it seems there are many OT verses indicating an earthly residence….or do you believe we will be in heaven part of the time? Also, I’m curious as to your definition of The Elect.”

    Sheryl
    I see all of the millennium being upon this earth while other nations continue around restored Israel.
    I am not sure what verses are in OT that explain Rev 20b -21. other than the Promise to Abraham that all families who be blessed through him which I see as Grace through having Jesus mediate for both great and small at Judgement.
    2Peter 3 shows the reason why Judgement will be in Heaven while the earth and heaven is renewed

  95. on 22 Mar 2013 at 9:28 amJas

    Sheryl
    The elect are those before Jesus’ sacrifice who had entered a Covenant relationship with God by accepting the Words of the Covenants(God) and being cleansed by either sacrifice for remission of sin or baptized with water when there was no operationally Temple like we see with John baptizing. These elect not only hear, they do the Commandments the best they can using the personal sin (Passover)offering when they fall short.
    After Jesus’ sacrifice they enter through accepting the Words of the Covenants (God) and being clensed through water baptism ,when these fall short they offer a personal sin sacrifice by using Jesus blood and flesh symbolically as the Passover offering. If you were taught the Words of the Covenants changed you need to understand no Covenant that has been ratified can be annulled without death ,so unless all Israel by blood have ceased completely to exist and not one prior to that maintained it then it is still in effect.

  96. on 22 Mar 2013 at 5:48 pmJas

    Mar 5:25
    Now 1 a woman was there who had been suffering from a hemorrhage 2 for twelve years.
    Joh 5:5
    Now a man was there who had been disabled for thirty-eight years.
    Joh 8:57
    Then the Judeans 1 replied, 2 “You are not yet fifty years old! 3 Have 4 you seen Abraham?”
    Heb 3:9
    “There your fathers tested me and tried me, 1 and they saw my works for forty years.
    Luk 13:11
    and a woman was there 1 who had been disabled by a spirit 2 for eighteen years. She 3 was bent over and could not straighten herself up completely. 4

    Wolfgang
    Just how are we to read the above verses if you claim eth just means year (singular). why dont you reread Rev 20 so you can finally read a 1000 years verses(plural)

  97. on 22 Mar 2013 at 7:47 pmSheryl

    I capitalized every time I saw 1000 Years in Revelation 20:

    “And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a THOUSAND YEARS. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the THOUSAND YEARS were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

    I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a THOUSAND YEARS. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the THOUSAND YEARS were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a THOUSAND YEARS.

    When the THOUSAND YEARS are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”
    ***
    The exact number of years may be figurative, but there is some kind of happening during a stated time period. I believe the last paragraph depicts the final judgment, after the second resurrection.

    The way Daniel’s vision is set out (see Chp 7,) it seems to me that the evil one wages war over the earth and torments the saints during the tribulation (troubles) and THEN judgment is pronounced in favor of the holy ones at which time they possess the holy city. And they will reign with Christ forever and ever …. but roughly a thousand years after Christ’s victory comes the second resurrection. This scenario is repeated throughout Isaiah as well.

  98. on 22 Mar 2013 at 8:17 pmJas

    Sheryl
    Daniel 7 is speaking of orthodox christianity who persecuted the true church for the last 1900 years.
    The key hint is where it says “His intention will be to change times established by law.” which was done by the catholic church when they transfered the Sabbath and Festivals to pagan days.

  99. on 22 Mar 2013 at 11:24 pmSheryl

    Yes, Jas, I can see how the RCC fits right in there and it breaks my heart that so many truly loving hearts for God are seduced into an orthodoxy that, in so many ways, goes against God’s word. I remember my stepfather telling me he was ex-communicated for asking his Catholic priest why they wear long flowing robes when the bible says to beware of men in long flowing robes. This is a good reminder that I need to pray hard for those who are under deception…especially in this late hour.

  100. on 23 Mar 2013 at 1:22 amWolfgang

    Jas

    Just how are we to read the above verses if you claim eth just means year (singular). why dont you reread Rev 20 so you can finally read a 1000 years verses(plural)

    I was not talking about “years(plural” but about “verses(plural)” … where Sheryl had indicated that there were verses (plural) about the 1000 years in the Bible …. when there actually is only one single passage in Rev 20 which even mentions “1000 years” …

  101. on 23 Mar 2013 at 10:33 amJas

    Sheryl

    If you count 1260 years forward from 312 when Emperor Constantine come into power it will bring you to late 16th century in the reformation . This is where the Holy Roman church lost domination till the end.
    Constantine was the one who declared sunday to be the Lords day.
    Before that the feast of Lords Day was at first light on the Sabbath to commemorate the Resurrection . Jews had the Feast of Sabbath on Friday evening and some christian did both

    Wolfgang
    What else could I thought you saying when there are 6 verses in Rev 20 . God really wanted us to know that restored Israel would be for only 1000 years so we would understand it wasnt for eternity .
    Actually there are atleast 2 seperate passages in these verse.
    Satan being bound and the Saints living

  102. on 23 Mar 2013 at 1:22 pmJas

    Sheryl
    This is a quote from Eusebius, Commentary on the Psalms, in Migne, Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 23, cols. 1171,1172 .early 4th century

    “Wherefore as they rejected the Word by the New Covenant, Translated and transferred the feast of the sabbath to the morning light, and gave us the symbol of true rest, viz. The Saving Lord’s Day, the first of the light, in which the Saviour of the world, after all his labours among men, obtained the victory over death, and passed the portals of heaven, having achieved a work superior to the six-days’ creation on this day, which is the first of light and of the true Sun, we assemble, after an interval of six days, and celebrate holy and spiritual sabbaths, even all nations redeemed by him throughout the world, And do those things according to the spiritual law, which were decreed for the priests to do on the sabbath; for we make spiritual offerings and sacrifices, which are called sacrifices of praise and rejoicing; we make incense of a good odour to ascend, as it is said, ‘Let my prayer come up before thee as incense.’ Yea, we also present the shewbread, reviving the remembrance of our salvation, the blood of sprinkling, which is of the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, and which purifies our souls. . . . Moreover we are diligent to do zealously, on that day, the things enjoined in this Psalm; by word and work making confession to the Lord, and singing in the name of the Most High. In the morning, also, with the first rising of our light, we proclaim the mercy of God toward us; also his truth by night, exhibiting a sober and chaste demeanour; And all things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the sabbath these we have transferred to the Lord’s day, as more appriately belonging to it, because it has a precedence and is first in rank and more honourable than the Jewish sabbath. For on that day, in making the world, God said, Let there be light, and there was light; and on the same day, the Sun of righteousness arose upon our souls. Wherefore it is delivered to us [paradodotai, it is handed down by tradition,] that we should meet together on this day ; and it is ordered that we should do those things announced in this Psalm.”

    It was Emperor Constantine who transfered it from the morning of the Sabbath to the day honoring the SunGod who he equated with Jesus.

  103. on 25 Mar 2013 at 11:40 amJas

    It seems that the early christians celebrated the resurrection at morning light, the second part of the Sabbath day. This in no way contradicts Matthews account that Jesus was raised “late on the Sabbaths” considered the second part of the Sabbath was the morning which since the evening was the first part the use of plural is justified. I have done intensive research in the use of phrase “Lord’s day ” pre 4th century to find most are mistranslations from greek by adding the word “day” with the ones that are not never referring to a certain day. This also helps me understand the 8th day in a 7 day week by understanding the early christians considered the morning part of the Sabbath as start of a new day but not a 24 hour day. There is a hebrew witness to this in the recognition of the 50th year in the 7th month of the 49th year in the celebration of of 7th set ofSabbath years in the Jubilee . I can also see the reasoning of Emperor Constantine to equate Jesus as the light to his Sungod

  

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