Taking Jesus Seriously: He Must Increase
March 25th, 2013 by Matt Elton
The message of the Bible is all about Jesus Christ. He’s in every book of the Bible. Only when we center our focus on Christ do we see the spiritual meaning of biblical events. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the hinge upon which all of scripture swings. We see it foreshadowed in the bread and wine offered by the high priest Melchizedek (Genesis 14), in Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son of promise (Genesis 22), in the story of Joseph (Genesis 37-50) and Jonah (Jonah 1-4), and in Moses’ raising up of the snake in the wilderness (Numbers 21, John 3:14). When we fix our eyes on Christ, we see him on almost every page.
 As powerful as the ministry of John the Baptist was, he knew he was insignificant compared to the one who was coming after him – Jesus the Messiah:
John 3:27-30 – John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven. You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent ahead of Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. He must increase, but I must decrease.â€
He must increase, and I must decrease. This should be the desire of our hearts today. Yet our human tendency is always to take our focus off of Christ and onto ourselves. When we look honestly at ourselves, we realize how hopelessly inadequate we are. By ourselves, we are completely incapable of serving God as he deserves. In and of ourselves, we are incapable of holiness and we consistently fail to please God. Left in our own sinful condition, we cannot enter God’s holy presence. When our focus is on ourselves – on our own weakness, sinfulness, and insufficiency – we cannot help but feel like failures.
Fortunately, our faith is not about us… it’s all about Jesus. We are sinners, but Jesus Christ is sinless. We were separated from God by sin, but Jesus Christ bridged the gap between God and man. We could not atone for our sin, but Jesus Christ paid the price in full when he died on the cross.Â
He has already done the work! When we put our focus on Christ instead of on ourselves, our whole perspective changes. By ourselves, we are slaves of sin… but in Christ, we have victory over sin. By ourselves, we are children of wrath bound for destruction… but in Christ, we have the hope of eternal life. By ourselves, we are separated from God by sin… but in Christ, we can come boldly before the presence of God, being cleansed of all sin not by our own works but by his holiness.
Jesus says “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing†(John 15:5). Our faith must be centered on Jesus Christ alone. Apart from him, we can do nothing.
One of my favorite stories in the gospels is when Peter walked on water in Matthew 14:22-33. The fact that Jesus walked on water is amazing, but what really amazes me the most is that Peter walked on water! He had the incredible, bold faith to say to Jesus, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water†(Matthew 14:28). And then, the awesome faith to step out of the boat and onto the water!
As long as Peter kept his eyes fixed on Jesus Christ, he could walk on top of the water. But as soon as the wind and waves broke his concentration on Christ, Peter began to sink. This story symbolizes the walk of every believer. Like Peter walking on water, we must keep our focus on Christ each and every day. As soon as we allow the troubles of this world to distract us from Christ, we begin drowning in the mire of this world. Hebrews puts it this way:
Hebrews 12:1-2 – “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.â€
The desire of my heart is for Jesus to increase in my life, and for myself to decrease. As Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.â€
When people look at my life, I want them to see less of me, and more of Christ. As I walk with Christ day by day and endeavor to follow him, I want HIS will and HIS power to be manifested in my life. To really be followers of Christ, we must make him Lord of our lives and keep our focus upon him.
He must increase. We must decrease.
Thanks Matt
John 15:5 says it all – without Christ we can do nothing.
I think it was Watchman Nee who said” All of me, none of Christ. Less of me, more of Christ. None of me, all of Christ”.
I think the early church was so powerful because they were the branches that dwelled in Christ the vine, who gave them life.
Matt
Do you understand what “He must increase” was refering to.
John was a Priest of the Order of Melchizedek and was passing his mantle to Jesus the final High Priest and King of Salem(Jerusalem). The reason God chose John from birth for this Priesthood was for the purpose of chosing, cleansing and anointing Jesus as the Lamb of God. David was also anointed a High Priest and King of Salem by this Order which decent came not from Father,Mother ,Birth or Death but only by the purpose of God
6:13 Those who carried the ark of the Lord took six steps and then David 23 sacrificed an ox and a fatling calf. 6:14 Now David, wearing a linen ephod, was dancing with all his strength before the Lord. 24 6:15 David and all Israel 25 were bringing up the ark of the Lord, shouting and blowing trumpets. 26
6:16 As the ark of the Lord entered the City of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked out the window. When she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him. 27 6:17 They brought the ark of the Lord and put it in its place 28 in the middle of the tent that David had pitched for it. Then David offered burnt sacrifices and peace offerings before the Lord. 6:18 When David finished offering the burnt sacrifices and peace offerings, he pronounced a blessing over the people in the name of the Lord of hosts. 6:19 He then handed out to each member of the entire assembly of Israel, 29 both men and women, a portion of bread, a date cake, 30 and a raisin cake. Then all the people went home. 31
Hi Matt,
while the principle of putting God’s will above our own desires and our will is certainly true for walking in fellowship with God, I would caution to use the passage from Joh 3 with John’s statement “He must increase, and I must decrease” as scriptural basis for this principle.
John was making a comparison of his ministry, as having been sent ahead of Christ, and Christ’s ministry which would follow … while his ministry would be decreasing, Christ’s ministry was increasing from that time onward.
As far as I can see, this statement cannot just be applied to us, since it deals with something that does not pertain to us at all.
Wolfgang and Jas
John had a palpable awe of and respect for Christ, and it’s not a stretch to say that, in our lives, if we are to be Jesus’ disciples, then Christ must increase and we must decrease.
Paul said as much in Galatians 2:20
“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”
Seems like Paul “decreased” so much that he considered himself crucified so that Christ might live through him.
Not a bad way to live.
Jesus indicated that we must “hate our own life” if we are to truly become his disciples
Luke 14:26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple”
Sounds like we are to “decrease” if Christ is to ‘increase’ in our lives.
Just about everything in the scriptures points to or illustrates something about Christ on some level beyond the literal for those of us who love him and want to know him better. So it seems is the case with John’s words here also, if we want to take them to heart.
Rich
The passage has nothing to do with respect ,it is about status with God. Taking passages then twisting them to create feel good thoughts is how we have 30000 denominations . Jesus’ increase has nothing to do with our relationship with him, it was about Jesus’ relationship with God. Now if you want to follow Jesus’ footsteps try increasing your status the way Jesus did.
Rich,
as I mentioned before, there are passages which adress that we should in our walk as disciples of Christ with humbleness of mind and put God’s Word and His will ahead of our own ideas and will.
BUT, this has nothing to do with the passage quoted from Joh 3 where John the baptist speaks of “decrease” and “increase” !
One must not take a passage of scripture and use words or statements from it totally out of context and give it an entirely different meaning!
To all those who have commented and read the article and comments thus far, of course the quote Matt references in his post find their primary meaning and understanding in the ministry roles of Jesus and John as you all have so quickly pointed out. But Matt does well to share with us something that he has related to his own life from this same passage. He’s not creating a new denomination in doing this. Nor is one simply living off of an emotional experience when we consider spiritual depths to a particular passage. It doesn’t negate the primary meaning.
Matt has excellent theology and exegetical insight. That is why we have asked him to be a part of our blog team. Not every point someone shares needs to be corrected by those of us who think we have figured it all out. Especially on this blog which is heavy on theology, when the occasional article is posted which can encourage us to consider our personal day to day devotion to Christ, we should welcome it as we do the first warm day after winter.
Perhaps we can give him a break and take to heart the big idea of his post. Too often the main heart of a blog post is completely hijacked by a few critics who are concerned that the “i’s” are not dotted and the “t’s” are not crossed.
“He must increase, I must decrease” most certainly is specifically referring to Jesus & John. But is the statement when considered true about us and Jesus as well? That’s Matt’s point. Let’s consider and discuss that.
Victor,
I mentioned above (#3)
yes … there certainly is a good and true principle which was addressed in the article which is of importance to our walk
BUT .. should one misinterpret passages of scriptures or misapply them?
You write above
The answer to your question would be: “No!” The statement in Joh 3 is NOT about us and Jesus …
“But Matt does well to share with us something that he has related to his own life from this same passage. He’s not creating a new denomination in doing this.”
Victor
How can we use something like this verse completely out of context without hiding the true context. Shouldnt we strive for proper exegesis of all verses .
Amen Victor. I think the OP and Rich’s post (#4) were valid and backed up with other scripture. The counters (#5 and #6) were opinions and condescending on top of that. Wolfgang and Jas – it is clear you have both studied scripture in depth. I’ve learned from reading both of your posts and I think when you ask leading questions to draw people out on their thoughts it is helpful. But I think too that you guys just like to argue and sorry to say, but in my opinion, posts that you make like 5 and 6 above make it less enticing to participate in this blog.
Tim
hmn … I am not into enticing anyone into participating anyways … neither should I, or? I am into study of the Scriptures to arrive at an objective correct understanding of the Scriptures, but I suppose that is not something in what some here are interested ?
Perhaps it’s “Time to say Goodbye” …
Tim
The bible is already very hard to understand without misapplying meanings.
You must think the trinity in christianity was formed out of thin air when in fact is was formed through misapplying meanings. If you were to read how certain denoms were formed you would find the same type of misapplying was the cause. If Matt would have shared first the true context then explained why he was misapplying this verse then no one else would feel the need to uphold the context of the verse.
Everything I share here is up for discussion , reproof and correction using the bible, historical context and the minds of many.
I agree with Victor that Matt’s posts are a breath of fresh air for those of us who want to know Christ better and follow him.
I think we need to be careful not to become Pharisaical in our thinking, and miss the forest for the trees. In Jesus’ time, the pharisees knew the scriptures better than just about anyone else, and they thought they had the doctrine “down”. Yet, when they were face to face with the Messiah, they didn’t even recognize him.
I wonder – did the early Church grow in such a dynamic fashion because the individual disciples did such a great job of interpreting the scriptures? If I recall correctly most of them didn’t have a bible, and many couldn’t read it. Or was it because they knew Christ?
A theology doesn’t give us life – Jesus Christ gives us life!
Rich
The Pharisees were masters of misapplying meanings which Jesus constantly corrected them. Can you provide one verse where the Pharisees’ were correct with the written scriptures .
Rich
Jesus was the legalist to the strict meaning of it. He called those that changed the law by misapplying them all kind of things
“He answered and said to them, ‘Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and he who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God’–then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophecy about you, saying: ‘There people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines of God the commandments of men” (Mat 15:3-9).
“you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness” (Mat 23:28).
“Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?…and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take Him” (John 7:19,32).
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.” (Acts 7:51-53)
Great post, Matt. This is something that really speaks to my heart and I totally agree that “I” must decrease so Christ in me may increase. I can easily apply that to my own life. I think it is especially true for a lot of Americans today that many facets of life encourage people to think of themselves first. I think this goes directly against biblical principle. Phil 2:3 advises us to love others before ourselves. I know someone who was told by her church that she cannot love anyone until she loves herself first..I disagree. I think if we take our focus off ourselves and onto loving others as Christ and our Heavenly Father love us, we won’t have to worry about our own self-worth. The fact that the God who created the universe and everything in it can even give me a passing thought gives me all the self-esteem I need. I wish churches would spend more time on teaching us to love others first, instead of loving our own self first.
Also…this verse about decreasing so Christ may increase makes me think of Phil 2:7 — that Christ “emptied himself” so to become a servant man (when in actuality he had all the authority given to him by God). I’ve taken this to mean that he became an empty vessel for God to pour his spirit into…and I think we should be encouraged to do the same.
Sheryl,
I suppose you are well aware that you are talking about something entirely different from the passage in John 4 to which Matt was referring? The rest of your comment makes that very clear.
Why is it that you and others insist on misapplying a passage of Scripture rather than admit that the passage really is not speaking about what you are inferring that it is?
The point you are making, which Matt was also trying to make, is great and wonderful and important and something which speaks to all of us … as I have mentioned before, YES, it is a true principle that we put our own self-ideas behind and put on what God’s Word and ill advise us … as you mentioned, Christ did always put his will second to his Father’s will which he put first; and thus Christ is actually our example, to be of a humble mind and to put God and His will first in order to walk in His light.
But no matter how you want to look at the passage in Joh 3 about “John decreasing” and “Christ increasing”, it has NOTHING to do at all with what the rest of the article, as well as your comment is setting forth.
Matt,
I just want to echo Sheryl’s comments and thank you for an excellent article. Your entire “Taking Jesus Seriously” series has challenged me to be a “doer” of the word and not just a “hearer.” Great work!
Wolfgang,
The truth that our own human will must “decrease” and Christ must “increase” is illustrated beautifully in the humility of John the Baptist. This truth is so completely self-evident to anyone who reads the scriptures seeking spiritual understanding that I don’t even know what to say except to encourage you to read John 3:27-30 for yourself. I cannot find anything in this passage that is “entirely different” from anything I’ve been talking about in my post. You even acknowledge that the overall point of my post is true, so I’m really not sure what you’re taking issue with.
In this post and some of my previous posts, such as my post on Lazarus, I’ve been encouraging people to read the scriptures from a spiritual perspective, instead of just treating the scriptures like a mere historical document. We all know that in the historical context, John the Baptist was referring to his ministry decreasing, and the ministry of Christ increasing. I never disputed this… in fact, I affirmed this because it is exactly the point I was making.
But what does that mean for us today? From a personal, spiritual point of view, what lesson can we learn from this text? How can we apply the truth of this text in our lives? No amount of knowledge about the text is worth anything if it doesn’t change us. No amount of theological understanding is worth anything if we don’t apply it in our lives.
In light of Paul’s statement “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me,” as well as the lessons we can learn from Peter walking on the water (he had to keep his eyes fixed on Christ!) and the obedience of Christ to the Father (“not my will, but thine be done”) – as well as a myriad of other lessons from almost every page of the Bible – the whole of scripture calls us into submission to the Lord. We must humble ourselves to allow the Lord to increase in our lives, in the same way that John the Baptist humbly received the Lord Jesus Christ in John 4. When we humbly submit to the Lord’s leading in our lives, we can be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) and we can say with Paul, “It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me!”
Hebrews 11 describes some of the great men and women of the faith throughout history. Most had little or no theological knowledge. And yet, when God called them, they obeyed. Abraham left everything to travel to a distant land, all because he believed in the promise that God made to him. So strong was his faith that he was willing to offer up Isaac – the son of promise – on the alter, reckoning that God would raise him from the dead. By faith Moses left the luxury of Egyptian royalty and stood in solidarity with his own persecuted and enslaved people, risking his life by opposing Pharaoh and demanding that he let the people go. Neither Moses nor Abraham nor the vast majority of the great people of faith in Hebrews 11 had any understanding of the scriptures whatsoever. In fact, most lived before a single word of scripture had ever been written down. Abraham was an idol worshipper before God called him to leave the land of Ur. Moses did not even know the name of God until it was revealed to him. And yet, when God called these men, they stepped out in faith and in action. They humbly submitted to God in total obedience, completely deserting their former way of life so that God’s power could be fully manifested as God worked through them to achieve HIS glorious purposes.
Consider also the original disciples of Jesus whom he hand chose to be the first to take his message to the world. Some were poor fishermen who had no knowledge of the scriptures and probably could not even read or write. And yet, when Jesus called them, they immediately left everything behind to follow him. They had little theological knowledge, but they had awesome obedience. Contrast that with the rich young ruler in Mark 10:17-27 who was highly educated and could quote the Law from memory, and yet, he walked away and rejected Christ because he could not bring himself into obedience to Christ’s instruction. He refused to “decrease” so that the power of Christ could increase in his life.
I question whether I am more like the obedient fishermen, or the rich young ruler. My desire is to have the same heart as those disciples who so eagerly left everything to follow Christ! I don’t want to merely know about the Bible. I want to know the Bible firsthand by living it out in faith and in action. I am not satisfied with merely knowing about Christ. I want to know Christ personally, hear his voice, do his will, and be his hands and feet in the world. This requires that I wholeheartedly surrender my life to him. There must be less of me, and more of him in my life. Without him, I can do nothing!
I’m convinced that Jesus is not at all impressed by our theology. He is completely unimpressed by our intellectual understanding. No amount of knowledge about the Bible is worth anything if it doesn’t set our hearts ablaze and move us into passionate faith in and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. What ultimately matters to Christ is obedience. He says in John 14:15, “If you love me, keep my commands.” And in verse 21, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” And in verse 23, “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
And that’s really the point of this post. My heart’s desire is to follow Christ and be obedient to his teachings and his personal direction in my life. But in order to do this I must, like John the Baptist, humbly recognize that my own will must decrease so that Christ’s will may increase. As Watchman Nee once put it, “All of me, none of Christ. Less of me, more of Christ. None of me, all of Christ.”
“The truth that our own human will must “decrease†and Christ must “increase†is illustrated beautifully in the humility of John the Baptist. This truth is so completely self-evident to anyone who reads the scriptures seeking spiritual understanding that I don’t even know what to say except to encourage you to read John 3:27-30 for yourself. I cannot find anything in this passage that is “entirely different†from anything I’ve been talking about in my post.”
Matt
I have been accused of not seeking spiritual understanding by every trinitarian,LDS,Jw and orthodox I have had discussions with. This is their means of justifying their beliefs. This verse needs to be understood with in it true context. Do you really think John’s ministry was any different then Jesus’. John was baptizing for remission of sin ,something only a High Priest could do. John was anointing Jesus to be High Priest through ceremonial cleansing and anointing . This is what increasing and decreasing.
Jesus lived in those through faith in the Word that Jesus so thoroughly upheld, something so few today even entertain so much so I have not met one yet in my life and is something I havent obtained. I am not sure it is still attainable. But there is always Grace
Matt,
I would like to know what you mean with and how you define “spiritual understanding”? What is that ? and are there other types than “spiritual” understanding ? how is it different from other understandings?
The passage in Joh 3 is NOT about what you have been talking about … which I would say is certainly “entirely different”.
I acknowledge that your point of individual humility and meekness for a believer’s walk in fellowship with God is true, yes. BUT John the baptist was NOT talking about that when he stated that “I must decrease and Christ must increase” … as is evident when carefully reading the passage and understanding it for what it says.
I do see that in your above comment you actually mention the crux of the problem … which is the idea of a “spiritual understanding” and thereby arriving at as well as justifying how you personally interpret a passage.
Matt
I would like to think that this is as much my desire as also the desire of others here on the blog as it is your desire.
Now, some of us here may not be of the opinion that there is a “personal communication and direction” via holy spirit between Jesus and a believer, but rather believe that — while we live on earth and the risen Christ is at the right hand of God — the direction by Christ is via Christ’s teaching, Christ’s words as revealed in the Scriptures.
Furthermore, I am wondering what place you give to the believer receiving instruction from God Himself and walking in fellowship with God, seeing that there is basically very little or no mention of “God” but only of “Christ” ? When it comes to personal direction via the holy spirit, I consider God to be at work within us via His spirit (cp. Phi 2,13)
Are you trying to tell us that at that point in time in John 3, John’s will had not yet “decreased” sufficiently to do what God had ordained him to do and to carry out the ministry he had been called out to fulfill? That John was in part still selfish and needed to become less selfish and allow more of Christ to “increase” in his life? I would say that John was very well “decreased completely already” in the sense in which you try to “spiritually understand” his words seeing that he was “in full swing” carrying out what God had instructed him to do!
Wolfgang,
The Bible has layers of meaning. On the surface are historical events that literally happened. But we can also go deeper when we ask questions like “What lesson can we learn from this passage?”, “What does this mean for me today?”, “How can I apply the truth of this passage in my life right here and right now?”, and “What is God trying to tell me through this passage of scripture?”
Answering these questions requires not just human reasoning but also the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our lives. A passage may mean one thing on the surface, but may also have a deeper moral message when we start thinking about it from a more spiritual perspective. For example, reading the record of Jesus and Peter walking on the water, we could simply stop there and say that this was a historical event. But we could also look deeper and find powerful lessons relevant to us today in that very same passage. I want to go deeper because I’m convinced that our study of the Bible should change us and transform us.
By no means do I claim that my interpretations of scripture are infallible. Feel free to disagree or correct any inaccuracies. I completely agree with you that in the historical context, John was talking about his ministry decreasing so that Christ’s could increase. Now I want to go deeper by asking what lesson we can learn from this and what God may be communicating to believers today through this same passage.
For me personally, I’m struck by the humility of John the Baptist. The Bible does not say how many people he baptized, but John 3:23 says he was baptizing “baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there” and despite this being a fairly remote area, people were traveling to him to be baptized, as it says in John 3:23. We know from elsewhere in the Bible that John was an awesome prophet of God who led a powerful revival. But then, in John 3:26, some of his disciples tell him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.†This new baptizer is the Lord Jesus Christ. Suddenly Christ’s ministry is baptizing more people than John! And behold, “all are coming to Him!” At this point John could have allowed his pride and his human emotions to get in the way. He could have been upset that his ministry was decreasing as all the people went over to another baptizer. But instead, he recognized the greatness of Christ and that this was all part of God’s plan. He said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven…. He must increase, but I must decrease.” Furthermore John recognized the heavenly nature of Christ versus his own earthly nature: “He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.” John recognized that Jesus Christ came down from heaven and is Lord over all. The unescapable conclusion of this powerful faith in Christ is that awesome statement: “He must increase!”
Personally, this record has inspired me to want the same heart that John the Baptist had when he received the ministry of Jesus Christ. John’s awesome ministry of the baptism of repentance – a movement that had probably reached thousands of people – humbly faded from history so that the ministry of Jesus Christ could take center stage. John knew that he himself was not the Christ, but rather, he was the one called to prepare the way for Christ, like a voice calling out in the wilderness, “Prepare ye the way of the Lord!” He humbly received Christ and was honored to baptize the Son of the living God.
If I were pulling interpretations out of thin air that had no basis anywhere else in scripture, I would be worthy of reproof. But overall, the whole of scripture supports this interpretation, especially Paul, when he writes, “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me,” and Hebrews, which calls us to fix our eyes on Christ, the author and perfecter of faith. Jesus says: “Without me, you can do nothing.”
Why the focus on Jesus instead of God? I find this to be a strange question. It is impossible to focus on Jesus “instead” of God. When you are focused on Jesus, you are automatically focused on God. Jesus is the perfect image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:5) so when we look at him, we see God (John 14:9). Jesus always does the will of the Father and always speaks the words of the Father (John 12:49, 14:24), so when we hear Jesus, we hear God. It is impossible to focus on Jesus and NOT be focused on God!
We need to get over this idea that God and Jesus are in competition with each other, as if glorifying Jesus somehow takes away from God. Personally, I completely reject this idea. God has exalted Jesus Christ to be the Lord of lords, the King of kings, the Head of the Body, the possessor of all power and authority in heaven and on earth. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to God (John 14:6), so we must focus on Jesus Christ if we want to be focus on God. There is no other way!
You ask, “I am wondering what place you give to the believer receiving instruction from God Himself and walking in fellowship with God.” My answer is that receiving instruction from God and walking in fellowship with God is of the utmost importance. How do we do it? By faithful obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. HE is the only way to the Father. You say that I talk a lot about Christ, but not a lot about God. I disagree. When you are receiving instruction from Christ and walking in fellowship with Christ, you are automatically receiving instruction from God and walking in fellowship with God… because everything Jesus says and does comes from the Father. It is impossible to walk in fellowship the Lord Jesus Christ and NOT be in fellowship with God. He is the only way the Father. He is the great Mediator between God and man.
You say, “When it comes to personal direction via the holy spirit, I consider God to be at work within us via His spirit (cp. Phi 2,13).” I completely agree! There is no point drawing a distinction between God’s personal direction in our lives, and Christ’s personal direction, as if they were competition with each other. In fact, everything that Christ communicates to us ultimately comes from God the Father. So there is really no distinction. From our perspective, it is as if Jesus is God. This may make some folks uncomfortable, but God has exalted Jesus Christ as Lord over all and as the Head of the Body for this very purpose. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in the sense that he walked the earth as a human being, yet in perfect obedience to the Father he did the will of God perfectly, and thus he perfectly manifested God to us in human form – he is the image of the invisible God! I want to quote a paragraph from my previous post, “He is Present”:
The difference with having a relationship with Jesus versus a relationship with God is that Jesus puts a face on God. God’s ways are far beyond our understanding, but Jesus walked the earth as a human being and was tempted in every way we are, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15). We can relate to his humanity. Even more importantly, Jesus can relate to our humanity. No matter what we face in life, he knows firsthand what it’s like! When we are tempted, Jesus has already been there and therefore he knows how to give us strength in each particular situation. Hebrews 2:18 says, “because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.†He is able to help those who are being tempted. This clearly implies that we can hear from him and receive his help in our everyday life, just as Paul received comfort from Christ when he faced the thorn in the flesh.
Anyone in fellowship with God must by definition be in fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ, since he is the only way to God. But in my own personal experience, ever since I have intentionally put my focus onto the Lord Jesus Christ and fixed my eyes on him – the author and perfecter of my faith – my faith has been so much richer and fuller because of it.
“Answering these questions requires not just human reasoning but also the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our lives.”
Matt
So you are saying those that disagree with your spiritual understanding are not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
So those that agree must do so to verify they are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thats a catch 22 for those claiming .
If you are right then maybe the concept of trinity is a spiritual understanding through guidance of the Holy Spirit and we should just ignore all historical context of verses against it.
Sounds very familiar.
Personally, this record has inspired me to want the same heart that John the Baptist had when he received the ministry of Jesus Christ. John’s awesome ministry of the baptism of repentance.
Matt
I would want the same heart that it took John to totally submitted his whole life to the Holy Spirit to stay ceremonially pure. This is the understanding you are lacking because you are misapplying the meaning. John could not decrease anymore in humility than he already was. All John could decrease in was status by passing on the torch to one that submitted to the Word of God so completely he qualified as the Human Lamb of God and the holiest of all mankind .
Matt,
says who? since when is the Bible sort of like “double forked tongue” talk?
I would say that the Bible has only true meaning. If it had several layers of meaning, and if such layers of meanings could differ and even contradict each other, then we no longer have truth, but multiple “private” interpretations.
IF the Bible is true, then it can only have one meaning, namely that meaning which the author intends to convey with what is written.
The questions you ask above do not even deal with layers of MEANING, but concern more the matter of APPLICATION. On what basis do you claim that “we can also go deeper” by asking the questions you propose? I would say there can be no going “deeper” in understanding than learning that one true understanding which the author conveyed in what is written.
As for lessons to be learned: Any lesson to be learned by anyone – the original recipients and any other reader in time since — depends on first learning the one true meaning which the author has conveyed. There can be no true lesson learned without first having the true understanding.
What does the truth of the Bible mean for us today? Are you suggesting it means something different for us now than it meant for those who initially received it? Are you seriously suggesting that the Bible has changed its meaning over the centuries? How could such a “changing meaning” writing be considered “TRUTH” if it changed over time?
The one correct question you ask is: “How can I apply the truth of this passage in my life right here and right now?” BUT, that question can only follow a more important question you forget to first ask, namely this one: “Can the truth of this passage even be applied to me ?” Only IF a passage can be applied can you ask HOW it might apply to you …
Your question about “What is God trying to tell me through this passage of scripture?” is also a bit dangerous, since it seems to imply that God might tell you something different than He would tell me by means of a passage in the Scriptures … BUT can this be the case, IF we are dealing with TRUTH?
How could it be God telling you one thing by means of a passage and God telling me something else by means of the same passage?
I’ve heard that claim many time over the decades of my involvement with the Bible … usually from folks whose “holy spirit guidance in their life” contradicted what other readers by their careful reading and utilizing their God given ability of human reasoning understood.
To be frank: What is claimed to be guidance by the Holy Spirit was nothing more than “own fantasizing” (for various reasons), and usually such claim was made to elevate oneself over others, to impress others, to justify unusual understandings that could easily be shown to be incorrect by careful reading and employing human reasoning.
Perhaps you can clarify what you mean with “guidance by the Holy Spirit in your life” ? What is that? Is it available to others as well or only to you? Would the guidance of others be different, perhaps even contradicting the guidance you might get, IF the guidance were in truth from God?
What do you mean with “spiritual perspective”? Also, I am still waiting for you answer to my earlier question what you mean with “spiritual understanding” … could you clarify that one as well, please?
I would consider that to be better than to try and fantasize something non-applicable to us into the passage of Scripture …
That could only be the case IF a passage would be applicable … it would be dangerous fantasizing leading down the wrong path IF a passage was non-applicable or IF the ideas about application today were based on a false understanding of the meaning of the passage!
Our study of the Bible will only change and transform us IF we (1) understand correctly what the Bible does say, and (2) determine the correct
application if an application is possible.
So much for some hopefully helpful comments on the first few paragraphs of your comment above.
Wolfgang,
I want to echo the sentiments conveyed by several earlier commenters. I do not know what your heart is, and the internet is lousy at communicating tone, but you come across as critical. It seems that no matter what kind of article is written, you eagerly jump in, often with the first comment, to criticize and tear down what the person wrote. We’ve seen this dozens of time on articles related to the kingdom of God and the gospel message. However, for some time now you seemingly jump on posts and comments on any topic and tear them down. Perhaps you would be more comfortable engaging with people on your own message board or on some other bigger website.
My concern here is that although you may not intend to or realize it, you intimidate people from making comments. Over the last 30 days over 3,000 unique visitors (i.e. different people) have viewed the blog–57% of each were first-timers. Most–the vast majority–of these people do not comment, but they do read and they do get an impression of the kind of Christians that this site represents. I fear they are not getting a good impression. I can speak for myself that I sometimes struggle as a poster, knowing that you will attack what I say if I make the slightest error or misstatement. As someone who has known you for decades please stop this behavior. It is a great blessing to have extra time on your hands, but perhaps this time should be invested in other endeavors–perhaps in your own local community.
Feel free to stay on the blog, but if you do, please exercise more grace in your communications.
Sean,
no comment from my side any further … I am very disappointed as I now realize rather clearly what seems to be the major concern of you and many others here … it obviously is not the same desire for study of the Scriptures in order to learn the truth, utilizing exchange with each other on biblical topics and methods of how to study the Scriptures …
Participating in an exchange and replying to points in detail in order to share with each other, teach and learn from one another was my intention … however, such — as you have made rather clear here – is not only not appreciated but also not desired.
oops … hit the submit button too early … one more point was to have been in the previous comment
is “more grace” in your opinion to refrain from pointing out what one perceives as an error?
Sean
Your Traffic rank of 3,476,894 doesnt reflect 3000 vistors a month.
Are you sure you are not counting refreshes .
Are these wordpress stats or alexa.
I understand this is your blog to run the way you see fit and will honor your rules but I thought disagreeing and sharing was one of the tools this blog has. While I may not agree with Wolfgang on many issues he always is honest in presenting his disagreements .
I realize that nobody likes a critic but how else do we get to the truth.
There is a guy on my hockey team – good player, very knowledgeable about the game of hockey. He is first to point out each mistake that someone else makes. His comments are not mean and I think in his mind he is really trying to be helpful, but he can really bring down morale of the team.
A counselor I heard once said that there should be four positive comments to each critical comment, otherwise, you will probably invite argument or at best be ignored. That is largely what has happened with my teammate. It is sad because he has a lot to teach, but until he learns tact, it will largely go to waste.
Tim
Is he pointing out real mistakes? If so this should help the team.
Is it his ego or people getting their ego hurt causing the moral problem? I would rather have the truth then a suger coated lie.
Jas,
You asked, “So you are saying those that disagree with your spiritual understanding are not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?”
This is not what I’m saying. When I said I need the guidance of the Holy Spirit in my life to help me to understand scripture, this was not a statement of arrogance, but of humility! I also said, “By no means do I claim that my interpretations of scripture are infallible. Feel free to disagree or correct any inaccuracies.”
What I’m saying is that my own human reasoning is not good enough to fully understand the awesome truths of God’s Word. I need His help! Anyone who thinks they have a perfect understanding of all truth is deceiving themselves. We all fall short of a perfect understanding, and we all need God’s help through the Holy Spirit to keep us on the right track.
God has given the Holy Spirit to all believers so that we may better understand the spiritual truths of His Word. We should all pray that God will help us to have a better understanding of his truth and correctly apply it in our lives. I believe that if we pray this with sincerity, God will answer and reveal to us awesome truths in His Word that we might never see without His help. I love Christ’s words at the Last Supper in John 14:26, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
Wolfgang,
I invite you to a look at some of the passages cited in the first paragraph of my post. Each deals with a historical event, and yet, also foreshadows the coming of Christ. The Christological interpretation in no way contradicts the historical interpretation. The Bible is multifaceted and each “layer” complements the others instead of contradicting.
The Bible is not merely a historical document. It’s spiritual. Hebrews 4:12 NASB says, “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
You said, “IF the Bible is true, then it can only have one meaning, namely that meaning which the author intends to convey with what is written.”
I completely agree… but the author of the Bible is God (2 Timothy 3:16) and He, in his infinite wisdom, can intend the same passage of scripture to complementary (not contradictory) meanings in different contexts. For example, when the account of Moses raising up the snake in the wilderness was first written down, nobody could have imagined that it had anything to do with the Messiah. And yet, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is precisely what that record is all about (John 3:14).
If we treat the Bible merely as a historical document, we will only be concerned with what the writer meant in that original historical context. We would disregard the Christological interpretation of the snake in the wilderness because the original writer of Exodus could not possibly have intended that meaning in the original historical context.
But Jesus didn’t do this. Instead, he took passages of scripture written centuries before and applied them to himself! “Beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27). He revealed Christological interpretations of scripture that most people had probably never even imagined.
No other book in history has such awesome depth of meaning as the Bible. The Word of God is living and active! The life, death, and resurrection of Christ is foreshadowed in almost every passage of the Old Testament. And yet, the Apostles never saw this until Jesus taught them. Even though the death of Christ is described in the Old Testament, they couldn’t believe that he was actually going to die. Until Jesus led them through Moses and the prophets and showed them all things in the scriptures concerning himself, they were oblivious to those awesome truths in God’s Word. The truths had always been there, but they lacked the spiritual understanding.
If we treat the Bible only as a historical document, we will only be able to scratch the surface of its vast wealth of meaning. If we do as Jesus did and apply the Bible to the present, we can hear the voice of God speaking through His Word not only to the original audience thousands of years ago, but to us today! The author of the Bible is GOD, and he has put in his Word not only messages to certain groups of people living thousands of years ago, but also important lessons for us today. God has made His Word living and active. Its wealth of meaning is far more deep and multifaceted than we can even imagine!
We definitely need the help of the Holy Spirit in our endeavor to understand scripture. God forbid that any of us should merely “fantasize” our way to an interpretation based on figments of our imagination. As I said to Jas, we must pray for wisdom and understanding, and I believe that God will answer this prayer by revealing awesome truths in His Word through the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Jesus says in John 14:26 that the Holy Spirit, “shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
Matt
Maybe I misunderstood about you proclaiming the truth by your special ability that I am lacking.
We can just agree to disagree
Jas,
It has nothing to do with lies, that is a strawman. The glass is both half empty and half full, both are true, which do you focus on?
That same hockey player could be saying ‘nice pass on that one’ instead of pointing out the time there was a man open and didn’t see him. Or, he could do both. But if it is all negative, negative, negative, good luck with the interpersonal relationships. Do you not see why you and Wolfgang are meeting resistance?
Tim
Yes I see why also I understand why. I have agreed with many here and stated that. I have noticed that when a trinitarian shows up here almost everyone jumps on them because being critical of them is acceptable here.
Yes the same hockey player could be nicer and not say a word about mistakes but that makes for a great social group not a great team.
Hi Brethren….Wolfgang, I hope you are still here with us. I enjoy your posts, personally speaking, and don’t mind being agitated once in awhile. I appreciate being stimulated by other opinions and views. It helps to sharpen my own understand, or perhaps point out where I might be in error. Frankly….and I know Sean doesn’t mean for this to happen…but if we were all nicey-nice this blog would get boring for some of us. Good, honest, truthful criticism, as long as it is void of personal attacks, should be encouraged, IMHO.
For all that…I’m not sure what your understanding of the verse in discussion is. Of course John is referring to his ministry…but I believe there is a deeper meaning in this, as in much of the bible. Jesus spoke in parables…he must have had a reason for us to search the deeper meanings.
And there is ONE truth, yes, absolutely agree. However, how many times have you re-read through a chapter in the bible and something new catches your eye, or you find a different meaning from what you read another time, when perhaps your life was on a different track? I say with humble honesty….when I read the bible through trinitarian eyes it held a completely differently meaning than it does now.
If the bible doesn’t have spiritual understanding for each of us, how could some people read the exact same words but come away with such a completely different perspective? And also be so absolutely convinced that they are led by the holy spirit and “know” they are right? Is it possible, do you think, that God allows for us to have a personal understanding of certain scripture….in addition to a basic understanding? IE…if there is one truth….can two different views be acceptable? This is something I’ve been thinking a lot about.
Sheryl,
I had a look if anyone had written anything further here …
As far as I am concerned, I see no reason anymore to actively participate in sharing my understanding concerning biblical matters here at this time …
The owner of this blog is doubting my intentions and heart … has made clear that “criticism” (= “understanding disagreeing with blog majority theology” ? ) is a problem here, etc … why should I share?
I have always endeavored to even give detailed reasoning from the scriptures and explain why I understand things the way I do and I have certainly been honest in my presentations … as the person with whom I have had perhaps most disagreements even acknowledged (I appreciate that, Jas )
Thus, unfortunately, you will have to do for now without further participation from me.
The article says
” The message of the Bible is all about Jesus Christ. ”
I disagree , the message of the Bible is all about God .
Further the article says
” Our faith must be centered on Jesus Christ alone.”
Again i disagree , the faith of Jesus Christ himself was centered on God and not once did he asked our faith to be centered on him but instead he asked again and again to center our faith on God .
He wanted to bring the Jews out of man made on rabbi centric faith to God centric faith , his intention was never to establish Jesus centric faith .
If we want to take Jesus seriously as the article says then we should listen and obey him . A Jesus centric faith is our invention not what Jesus Christ himself said and by doing that we are ending up making a self inventory faith .
Last but not the least by making our faith God centric are we looking down Christ ? , according to me absolutely not instead obeying him.
I kind-of agree with Dr. Ali. And I think his and many others’ sensitivity re. the issue comes from recognising the wholesale defection of Christendom from the original faith. To Christendom, focusing on Jesus alone implies that Jesus is all and everything, even to the exclusion of the Father Himself; to them Jesus is God Almighty…
But then again, IF the religion and mission of Jesus were those of being God-centered, then focusing on Jesus alone would automatically imply also seeing and experiencing God. The first Christians did view Jesus as their ultimate Hero – the one who uplifted humanity; the one who was the prototype for humanity and the initial blueprint even before creation. Hence their conviction that seeing the Image implied alse seeing the Original. Understanding it this way, without the subsequent Catholic and Calvinistic corruptions of God and Jesus, one can focus on Jesus and remain true to God-centeredness…
Jaco
Dr Ali
I agree
Jesus should be our example not the center of our universe.
That’s an excellent point…and one I have difficulty in getting across to (smile) Jesus-freaks. I would think anyone who professes Jesus to be the Lord of their life would know that Jesus had a God, a heavenly father, and we should acknowledge Him too. It is enough for me that Jesus said the most important truth is that God is One. …he didn’t say “God is me.”
Jas…on a personal note…would you be interested in discussing views off-blog? If so, my email is sheryl at sherylshaw dot com. I respect your choice, either way.
Thanks Jaco , Jas and Sheryl .
For once after posting my previous comment i got scared and thought that it would not go down well with people on this blog , but to my delight i found out after reading the comments of you people that there are still true followers of Jesus Christ left in this world .
One more point i want to add ……… Jesus Christ himself was addressed as Rabbi in the Bible !
Did you get the point , Christ asked the Jews to follow God not the Rabbis . If he would have asked Jews to base their faith on him it would have been an irony . It would be like asking people not to follow other rabbis instead asking them to follow another Rabbi… Jesus .
Jesus Christ walked , talked , preached and died for God .
Reading your last comment, Dr. Ali, it dawned on me that Jesus is the only one we can go to to find God. It’s like looking for a street and thinking the signpost IS the street. IE…if you are looking for God the ONLY way to find him is to follow Jesus and he will show the way. So simple….and making Jesus into God and the holy spirit just confuses everything.
@ Dr. Ali
after reading your comment #43, and though I am not participating in discussions here on the blog, I wanted to briefly mention that I certainly agree with your earlier observation … there’s no reason for you to be scared and thinking that I might not appreciate your post. I thought that your point was right on target!
Cheers,
Wolfgang
PS: however, be not surprised if some here think differently and if it will not go down that well with others more … but still no reason to be scared .
Dr. Ali,
No worries here. I think your point is well made. I actually think I suffer a bit from not giving Jesus his due, probably as a result of over compensating against the trinity.
Dr. Ali,
Thanks for the comment. I’ll be making a new post later today that will respond to your comment in more detail.
For now I just want to say that I used to believe exactly as you do, so I understand where you are coming from. Most folks on this blog, including myself, are non-Trinitarian. I certainly don’t believe that Jesus replaces God, but I agree with Sheryl that Jesus is the only way to God.
His death on the cross pays the price for our sins so that we can be reconciled to God. Through his perfect obedience to the Father, Jesus is the exact image of God and he is the one who makes God known to us. When we look at Jesus, we effectively see God, because God is so perfectly reflected in him.
I have to disagree that Jesus didn’t ask us to center our faith on him. Jesus said in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
Jesus was a rabbi, but not merely a rabbi. He is the perfect Son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, given all power and authority in heaven and earth.
At the Last Supper in John 15:4-5, he told his disciples, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
If Jesus is the only way to God, if he is the vine and we are the branches, and if we can do nothing apart from him, then it sounds to me like our faith should be centered on the person of Jesus Christ.
He doesn’t replace God… but he is the only way to God.
Again, more coming soon in a new post.
God bless,
Matt Elton
Matt
I want to respond but my hope is Dr. Ali will expand more.
Sheryl
You have some very interesting post in your blog . Your life is very fascinating and we are alike in many ways in ours views of the world today. i think you should create a topic at your blog which I would gladly discuss it with you.
Dr. Ali and others,
I have a new post up that addresses the issue of a “Jesus-centric” faith: http://lhim.org/blog/2013/04/09/taking-jesus-seriously-expanding-our-thinking/
I hope it will shed some light on why I believe God desires us to center our faith on Jesus Christ, and have a relationship with Jesus.
I look forward to continuing this conversation over on the new post.
God bless,
Matt Elton
Concerning the recent posts – I don’t see that Jesus and his Father are in any sort of competition, and they are certainly one in purpose. What Jesus commanded in John 15 was that we abide in him, and that without him we can do nothing, and we wither as dead branches. So it certainly is not off-base to want to abide in Christ and be tapped into him, the true shepherd. Do we do this to the exclusion of God? Of course not.
What distinguishes Christ’s disciples from the Jews? Both worship Yahweh.
To me, Christ IS the central figure of the Bible – the old testament is full of examples that illustrate something about him ( Jonah, Joseph, Abraham and Isaac, etc etc). Not to mention the numerous prophecies.
Is Christ the head of his church? Are we wrong by acknowledging him as head and following his directions?
Hi Rich,
Welcome to KR!!! I believe that following Y’shua’s directions means following his instructions (and examples). Y’shua said we should pray to the Father. “Our Father. Who art in heaven. Hallowed be your name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”… 🙂
Doubting Thomas
Amen!
Doubting Thomas and Jas – God bless! Definitely we all agree that our prayers and supplications are to be directed to God our Father, as Jesus taught us.
Our instructions, as members of His church, come from the head, who is Christ. So i want to make sure I’m in good communication with him on a daily basis, so when he wants to tell me something through the spirit I recognize his voice and am listening to what he wants to tell me. We can speak to him at any time – this is simply personal conversation with our master and friend, not prayer.
Rich
I understand where you are coming from but Jesusis is the head because he was first in order . Jesus told us to pray to the Father but he does allow us to name drop his name when praying. Only God can receive prayers and worship.
Jas,
If only God can receive prayers and worship, how do you explain the fact that Jesus was worshipped?
Not only did he receive worship from men on earth (Matthew 2:2, 2:11, 14:33, 28:9; John 9:35-38) but Hebrews 1:6 says “Let all the angels of God worship him!”
Revelation 5 paints an awesome picture of literally millions of angels (“the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands”) as well as the four “living creatures” and the twenty-four elders all falling down before Jesus Christ and crying out in a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing!” If this isn’t worship, what is? If even the angels in heaven are worshipping Jesus, how much more so should we, as mere mortals, be worshipping him!
As for prayer, I agree that Jesus taught us to pray to the Father in his name. I would prefer to use the term “communication” with Jesus rather than “prayer” to Jesus. I believe it is absolutely possible to communicate with Jesus – and every believer should have a personal relationship with him.
When Jesus walked the earth as a human being, he could only be in one place at one time. Today, he is far more present with us in the world than he was back then, because he lives inside of every believer through the Holy Spirit (Colossians 1:27). He promises that “I am with you always, even unto the end of the world†(Matthew 28:20). Whenever believers gather together in fellowship, Jesus joins with them through the Spirit according to Matthew 18:20. Revelation says that he “walks among the churches.” Jesus is present, he knows everything that’s happening in his church, and he desires a relationship with us.
Saul in Acts 9 and Stephen in Acts 7 both spoke with the risen Lord Jesus Christ after his ascension into heaven. Paul thanked Christ in 1 Timothy 1:12, and Revelation ends with a petition directed toward Christ: “Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!†In 2 Corinthians 12:6-9, Paul specifically communicated with Jesus Christ regarding the thorn in the flesh. Jesus then spoke to him, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” We know it was Jesus because Paul says in the next verse, “I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.â€
Not only can we talk to Jesus, we can also hear his voice. Just as he strengthened and encouraged Paul when he faced the thorn in the flesh, he can also speak to us when we face a trial or temptation. Hebrews 2:18 says that Jesus is able to come to the aid of those who are being tempted.
In John 10:27, Jesus says, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” Jesus calls us into a relationship with him in which we can know him personally, and he can know us personally. We should endeavor to hear his voice and receive his wisdom and guidance in our lives.
God bless,
Matt Elton
Matt
You can make those verses mean what you want.This subject has been covered in this blog by many here in a few discussions with oneness believers.
If someone remembers where please point Matt that direction I just remember reading a very great discussion somewhere in this blog.
I agree with Matt.
Our prayer and supplications are to be directed to our heavenly Father, as Jesus taught. I think we all agree on this.
As for fellowship, and communication with the head of the church, of which I am a member, that is another matter altogether. If he is a present reality in my life, as he promised he would be, I can certainly acknowledge him and listen to him. In fact it would seem strange no to want to do so.
Rich
Of course you agree .
If I had a dime for everytime I heard someone say I will always be with you in your heart ,well I would be very heavy. If you hear Jesus vocally then you might be very unique. But if He speaks to you through his example of obedience to the Word of God then you would try to walk the line that he did and by doing so Jesus will also confess your name to His God At Judgement.
God only desrves our worship but Jesus deserves the highest form of respect bestowed upon a human.
Romans 1:25 shows that even creatures can be worshipped but does that make them able to receive prayers of other creatures. The verses you referenced to prove we could worship Jesus the word translated “worship” carries the meaning of paying homage but when used about God its about His Sovereign status. Every King of Israel and even some gentile kings received this.
Hebrews 1:6 speaks of a future time when God brings back His firstborn into the world but again All Righteous Kings of Israel were said to sit at the right hand of God,they were even called Christ. Satan main goal is to divert worship to anyone or anything other than the sovereign Creator.
Jas,
perhaps the following article and comments comes to mind?
http://lhim.org/blog/2013/03/18/taking-jesus-seriously-he-is-present/
Wolfgang
While there is some very good information present there the discussions I read were with a man named John who was a oneness believer. I believe you, Doubting Thomas,Tim, Jaco and maybe even Sean presented a very strong case that Jesus wasnt worshipped or was to worshipped.
The problem with blogs is searching is very hard.
Jas,
I don’t know if this is the article you had in mind, but it includes a very insightful presentation by Dr. Dale Tuggy on the subject.
http://lhim.org/blog/2012/05/23/should-christians-worship-jesus/
Great article!
We all have critics, don’t take them too seriously. The majority of the people hear your heart and probably agree with your sentiments! Thanks for taking time to write.
Let’s not forget, it all seems to start with the commandment: “Love One Another”. Though we may disagree on issues, we need to respect and love one another, even if we disagree with each other. I, for one, invite Wolfgang, and others to return and fellowship. We grow in understanding as we share our thoughts, though we may disagree. I think that when we arrive in Heaven, we will all have some of our ideas and interpretations corrected on certain points…….