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In John 17, Jesus prayed that his church Cheap Jerseys free shipping would be one in the same way that he and the Father are one. The same unity of purpose that exists between Jesus and God ought to exist in the church.

So why is there more competition between Christian denominations than there is in the Superbowl playoffs?

I believe the problem is a failure to understand what church is, stemming from an emphasis on buildings and institutions rather than people. Many people believe church buildings are special, holy places, and whenever they walk into a church building they immediately feel closer to God. Some people even think that they can only communicate with God inside of that one building. And yet the same God who feels so present to us in church on Sunday morning is equally present with us on Monday morning. The same God who feels so present in a cathedral is equally present in a landfill. He never leaves us or forsakes us, but we so easily take our focus off of Him.

For many, church is only a building. If they don’t like one, they can go to another. Church becomes a fad, even a form of entertainment. They can “shop” for various churches without ever becoming committed or building relationships with any specific group of believers. This church-shopping mentality fuels competition between denominations rather than uniting them in the common purpose of Christ.

In the Bible, the word “church” is translated from the Greek word ekklēsia (Strong’s 1577), meaning a community of people called by God. In the Bible, church is not a building, but a group of people who make up the Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23, 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 12) by being Christ’s hands and feet in the world.

The people are the church, not the building. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, church is not a place you go to once a week, but a commitment to follow Christ that you live out each and every day. You are the church!

One Body

There are many manmade “denominations” in the world, but there is only one Body of Christ. Every individual who follows Jesus as Lord is a member of the Body of Christ, regardless of their denomination, location, age, race, gender, nationality, language, or culture. Jesus is building up a Kingdom of people from “every tribe and language and people and nation” (Revelation 5:9). He is doing away with all ethnic, linguistic, and cultural barriers by uniting his followers into one Body. And yet we still allow the smallest things to divide us.

I can only imagine how much it grieves the Lord Jesus Christ when petty arguments over theology cause division in his church, and when minor disagreements cause believers to cut off relationships with one another, and even hate one another.

Part of Paul’s message in 1 Corinthians 12 is that every member of the Body is important. He writes, “The eye cannot say unto the hand, ‘I have no need of thee,’ nor again the head to the feet, ‘I have no need of you.’” Every member of the Body is vitally important. And yet, the global Body of Christ currently lies fractured in a million pieces over theological quibbles.

With ten fingers, I can accomplish a difficult task.

If I’m missing even one finger, I will struggle.

If I’m missing several fingers, it may be almost impossible.

Just as I need all ten fingers in order to work most effectively, so the Body of Christ needs all of its members in order to carry out the work of Christ most effectively. It is vitally important for all members of the Body to work together in unity. And when Paul talks about unity in the Body, he isn’t just talking about unity among individual believers, but also, in a broader sense, unity between different church congregations. Even the first century believers had differences and disagreements over theology. And yet, they recognized that the core gospel message they held in common was far more important than any minor difference in theory or practice.

Iron Sharpens Iron

Certainly, correct doctrine is important, and we should openly discuss biblical and theological matters in a spirit of good fellowship, “as iron sharpens iron.” And yet, how many denominations have split over the most trivial issues? Doctrinal disagreements divide the Body, often inhibiting or even destroying the work of Christ. Our focus should be on the core truths we hold in common, not the less important issues we might disagree about.

I once heard a true story about a group of Christian missionaries who traveled to a third world country together on a missions trip. They came from very different denominations, and during the plane ride they got into a major theological argument. This argument was so bad that they felt certain they would not be able to work together once the plane landed.

But when the plane landed, they discovered the situation on the ground was much worse than they had anticipated. There had been a major flood and many people had lost their homes. The missionaries immediately jumped in and began working together to help build shelter for the homeless, provide food for the hungry, and get medical attention for the injured.

As soon as they got busy doing the work of Christ, their theological differences no longer seemed to matter.

We have the luxury of spending a lot of time in theological discussions. Most Christians in the world do not have this luxury. We have the luxury of spending a lot of time studying the Word of God, which is a good thing, but we too easily forget that many Christians around the world still lack access to the Bible, or do not even know how to read.

Your average Christian lives in Africa or Asia. Many live in dire poverty and suffer persecution. While we have the luxury of “armchair theology,” Christian leaders in many parts of the world must do “theology on the run.” They don’t have time to worry about minor theological issues when they are too busy serving the Lord, ministering to those in urgent need of help by healing the sick, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, and visiting those in prison.

Is it any surprise that most miracles happen in third world countries, and not in the West where we have become comfortable with “church as usual”? If we spent less time in endless theological debate and more time actively doing the work of Christ, what miracles would we see?

Surely there is great urgency in the times in which we live. The world is changing faster and faster, and new technology allows us to reach the ends of the earth in ways previously unimaginable. This is the moment in which the Body of Christ will either make disciples of all nations, or fail because the Body is not working together. Satan’s strategy to defeat the church is “divide and conquer!”

We cannot afford to let petty disagreements divide the Body. The church around the world must unite for the common purpose of continuing Christ’s work in the world. I pray we see the day when our different church congregations and denominations are actively working together, hand in hand, in a united effort to reach our communities and the world for Christ.

74 Responses to “Rethinking Church: Division vs. Unity”

  1. on 07 May 2013 at 8:34 pmRich

    Well stated Matt

    There are many scriptures that seem to indicate that Jesus is more concerned with our actions than our theological understanding. Matthew 25:30 -36 – He said those that inherit the kingdom will be those that fed and clothed the poor, visited the prisoners, sheltered the strangers, and visited the sick. He didn’t say it would be those that finally got the theology figured out.

    Not to diminish the importance of theology, but let’s not forget that we are all still growing in our understanding of the scriptures. However the commandments of our Lord ( feed the poor, love our neighbor, etc) are for the most part very clear and easy to understand.
    Every Christian can agree on those at least.

  2. on 07 May 2013 at 10:04 pmJas

    Rich
    You do understand those are Torah commandments that Jesus was refering to, not something new

  3. on 07 May 2013 at 11:26 pmSheryl

    Matt, what an exciting article! This really speaks to my heart as I feel an urgency to unite with fellow believers in the calling of Christ, regardless of how we read and interpret scripture. There will (soon) come a time when all differences will be swept aside as we truly are united in welcoming our Lord and King when he returns to set up his kingdom. My five children don’t all understand me the same way, and I don’t feel any of them really know the real “me.” But I love them all dearly and equally. In the same way our Father loves each one of us as we strive to know who He is and how we can help others to know Him and His Son. Thank you for this gift of your writing…a great encouragement!

  4. on 08 May 2013 at 10:53 amXavier

    Matt

    If we spent less time in endless theological debate and more time actively doing the work of Christ, what miracles would we see?

    In the NT the preaching of the Gospel about the soon-coming KOG was confirmed by miracles [Heb 2.3-4]. And the end will come once THIS Gospel is preached throughout the whole world [Mat 24.14]. “This is the work of God”, to believe what His Son taught [John 6.29].

    Jesus did not come to seek social change…He did not come to address economic issues, they were not a concern for him. Was he aware of them? Absolutely…there was no abuse no iniquity that he was fully aware of.

    He knew that there was a great need for social reform…He knew that there was a great need for care of the poor and the sick who were believed, even by the Jews, to be under the punishment of God. And who were treated with indifference and abused. He knew that widows were mistreated, orphans were mistreated.

    And yet he never came to bring about a social revolution…it was not their social justice that he sought. He didn’t participate in civil rights. He preached the Gospel. John MacArthur

  5. on 09 May 2013 at 1:20 pmMatt Elton

    Xavier,

    Preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom is extremely important, and I don’t want to diminish that in any way. But in the Gospels, the work of Christ is multifaceted and also includes caring for the material needs of the poor and needy. Consider the miracles of Christ, such as the feeding the thousands with a few loaves of bread and fish.

    If anyone doesn’t believe that Jesus cares about social justice, I would simply point them to the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7).

    And what did Jesus proclaim as his mission at the very beginning of his ministry?

    “The Spirit of Yahweh is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Yahweh.”
    -Luke 4:18-19 (Isaiah 61:1-2)

    Living out our faith is more than just telling people that there is a Kingdom coming someday, although that is certainly important. Faith is also about building the Kingdom here and now through the counter-cultural way we live our lives in obedience to the Sermon on the Mount.

    If our faith isn’t moving us to engage in social change, then what’s the point? Jesus said in John 14:12 that whoever believes in him will do the same works he did, and even greater. That means that the same mission he proclaimed in Luke 4:18-19 now becomes our mission – including preaching the gospel to the poor, healing the brokenhearted, preaching deliverance to captives, recovery of sight to the blind, liberty to the oppressed.

    We could have all the intellectual knowledge in the world, but if we’re not actively engaging in social change by helping the poor and needy, we are like the man in James 2 who has faith but no action. James says that his faith is useless:

    “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone… Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
    -James 2:14-17, 24

    Ultimately, we will be judged on whether or not we continued Christ’s work that he proclaimed as his mission in the beginning of his ministry. We are saved by grace through faith, but what is faith? True faith causes us to be transformed into the image of Christ and become his hands and feet in the world, continuing the same work that he did when he walked the earth, and building the Kingdom here and now.

    In Matthew 25:31-46, those who enter the Kingdom of God are those who feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, take in the stranger, clothe the naked, visit the sick, and visit those in prison. Those who don’t do these things do not enter the Kingdom. So if we aren’t doing these things, what are we doing?

    It seems to me that Jesus is extremely concerned about social change, and building an equitable society in which the poor, the widow, the orphan, the homeless receive help and everyone has access to the necessities of food, water, and clothing. This society will ultimately be established when the Kingdom of God is fully come. But Jesus calls us to begin the work right here and right now. In fact, he has already begun the work. We just need to get on board with it and be his hands and feet.

    God bless,

    Matt

  6. on 09 May 2013 at 1:49 pmJas

    Matt
    Of course Jesus was concerned with social injustice but what was Jesus’ guidelines for insuring people understood how to do this?
    7 commandments of the 10 are for man to live by and the 4th is the most importance in maintaining social balance along with the ordinances for harvest. The Sabbaths insure the health of the lower class by given them a set day for rest every week,it also provides release of debt every 7 years and crops for the poor, every 49 years everything is released. The ordinances for harvest provided the corners of the crops for the poor.
    Jesus not once taught against any of the Torah as a guideline and preach the same Gospel Moses and the Prophets preached of which Jesus made perfect.
    It is very sad when people just believe man over God’s Word.

  7. on 09 May 2013 at 2:02 pmXavier

    Matt

    If anyone doesn’t believe that Jesus cares about social justice, I would simply point them to the Sermon on the Mount

    I don’t think I said Jesus or his Apostles did not care. I simply pointed to the biblical fact that they have been sent to primarily preach the Gospel, as per your Isa 61.1-2. Luke 4 cites this very same passage and goes on to tell us why Jesus was sent:

    I must preach the Gospel about the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose. Luke 4.43

    And of course I agree that faith without works is dead.

  8. on 11 May 2013 at 1:45 pmBrian

    “But in the Gospels, the work of Christ is multifaceted and also includes caring for the material needs of the poor and needy. Consider the miracles of Christ, such as the feeding the thousands with a few loaves of bread and fish.” from comment 5

    It is hard to say that Jesus feeding the thousands is an indicator of Jesus caring for the needs of the poor. Depending on your understanding of the Gospels, Jesus performed this miracle once or twice. Either way, he provided food to people who had been listening to him preach all day. There is no indication that all who heard him were poor and needy — only that they did not bring provision for the day, and it was ONE meal. Whatever one believes about Jesus and the poor, this cannot be used as an example of his teaching on social justice.

    My other thought is related to that term “social justice.” It is a phrase that seems to have many different meanings and I would find it helpful in this type of discussion if it was defined.

  9. on 11 May 2013 at 2:04 pmJas

    Brian
    Social justice to me means being concerned with the needs of all by keeping the playing field level. Social justice is purpose of God’s laws in which provisions were made for the poor,the widows,the orphans and the elderly .7 of the 10 commandments when used properly provide the basis for the Mosaic laws .I agree that feeding the thousands was not a example of social justice because it didnt require sacrificing ones good fortune to provide for others misfortune . It was purely just a meal for those that were there.

  10. on 11 May 2013 at 2:59 pmXavier

    Jas

    Social justice to me means being concerned with the needs of all by keeping the playing field level.

    You sound like Obama. 😛

  11. on 11 May 2013 at 11:44 pmJas

    Really
    In what way does Obama care about anything other than his own advancement and what does Obama have to do with Jesus’ or with Gods concerns of feeding the poor .
    Maybe you should actually read the Torah to understand the spirit of it instead of just believing people with agendas.

  12. on 12 May 2013 at 1:00 amMatt Elton

    I agree that the feeding of the multitudes may not be the greatest example of “social justice.” Perhaps a better example would be any of the many times in the gospels where Jesus stood up for the poor and even denounced the rich. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, helping the poor and needy is directly tied to entrance into the Kingdom. Jesus taught that it’s hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom. He praised the poor woman who put two pennies into the offering plate, saying she put in more than anyone else. Probably the best example is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man ignored the needs of the poor, and ended up in fire (however you interpret this). The rich man who didn’t care about the poor received judgment, while the poor man received compassion.

    I think Jas’s definition of social justice is correct. It’s not about total wealth redistribution or everyone getting the same amount. It’s not about the rich being evil (Jesus didn’t say the rich cannot enter the Kingdom, only that it is harder) as there are plenty of financially prosperous Christians who use their wealth to do great things and help people in need. Social justice is concerned with making sure that the wealthy don’t hoard wealth to the extent that the poor lack access to even the most necessary things. It’s about a fair society where everyone has, at least to some extent, access to opportunity. For the record, I am not a fan of President Obama. I don’t think socialism ever achieves social justice, despite lofty intentions. I look at social justice more as the difference between fair capitalism and crony capitalism.

    In the Torah, there are plenty of laws to ensure that the poor, the orphan, and the widow have access to the basic necessities. God commanded farmers to leave the edges of their fields unharvested so the poor could glean food for themselves, for example. In the Torah, God clearly cares about social justice, and Jesus, as a Torah-abiding Jew, also cared about it.

    Xavier, I agree that Christ’s primary purpose in his earthly ministry was to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom. Social justice was still pretty important though.

  13. on 12 May 2013 at 1:15 amtimothy

    Jas, Yes indeed, I am in concert with you…..http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/in+concert, and was raised to call them “hidden agendas”…..http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Hidden+Agendas

  14. on 12 May 2013 at 7:04 amXavier

    Matt

    In the parable of the sheep and the goats, helping the poor and needy is directly tied to entrance into the Kingdom.

    Are you familiar with this interpretation of the parable?
    http://youtu.be/ryF1WH9YWJM

  15. on 12 May 2013 at 10:23 amMatt Elton

    Xavier – I haven’t heard that interpretation. Interesting.

  16. on 12 May 2013 at 12:36 pmJas

    Xavier
    I would have to totally disagree with this interpretation. The needy in this verse is those of physical Israel who actually do God’s Will by maintaining a Covenant Relationship with God. Now maybe other nations are allowed to become Jesus’ brethren by accepting the Torah and the Renewed Covenant Changes to become Israelites and those Physical Israelites who dont will be the goats who think the promises were by physical aspects only. Jesus will also say depart from me those that practices lawlessness .

  17. on 12 May 2013 at 4:12 pmXavier

    Jas

    Okay. Never heard your interpretation before so add that to the parable I guess.

  18. on 12 May 2013 at 4:33 pmJas

    Xavier
    Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of ISRAEL to bring them the means to enter and maintain a Covenant Relationship . But they were always provisions for foreigners to enter the Covenant of True Israel by accepting the Words of The Covenants (Isaiah 56) but without a priesthood ,temple and temple sacrifices made by priest there was a requirement to a change to the law for righteousness .
    Hosea and Paul identify the lost sheep who were exiled who are still called ( gentiles)not my people. The person in that video teaches an unbiblical replacement theology that started with Justin who sole purpose was to show that even before he heard of Jesus he was a christian by claiming all the pagan beliefs were in fact christian but satan using foreknowledge of the future borrowed them from christianity.

  19. on 12 May 2013 at 9:46 pmXavier

    Jas

    What about Paul the Apostle? Does he teach replacement theology?

  20. on 12 May 2013 at 10:02 pmJas

    Xavier
    Paul identified the gentiles being grafted back as the very same people that were called “not my people” in Hosea ,the exiles of the Northern Kingdom and the first exiles of the Southern Kingdom whichthe Assyrians took captive and relocated .
    So NO Paul did not teach any replacement theology ,it is people out of lack of knowledge or the intent to deceive that ignore or twist.

  21. on 12 May 2013 at 10:52 pmXavier

    Jas

    What do you mean Gentiles are being grafted back?

  22. on 12 May 2013 at 11:18 pmJas

    9:25 As he also says in Hosea:
    “I will call those who were not my people, ‘My people,’ and I will call her who was unloved, ‘My beloved.’”
    9:26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

    Xavier
    According to Hosea who are these people who were broken off called( ‘You are not my people”) that are AGAIN going to be grafted back called ( ‘My people).
    You do understand the exiled became known as gentiles after exile dont you?
    These are the lost sheep Jesus was sent for!!
    Maybe a good reading of Hosea and an understanding of who he was a prophet to will help

  23. on 12 May 2013 at 11:25 pmtimothy

    Jas, yes, I agree with you again. “Ignore”, to mean something like “push out of mind, actively suppress the knowledge of” and “Ignorant” to mean “not aware of, not knowledgeable of”, which are the common usages, at least in our experience. That also fits the classic difference between ignorance and stupidity – ignorance is not knowing something, stupidity is refusing to know something (or at least refusing to act on the knowledge).

    Here is one mans “point of view expounded” with his home spun UTUBE video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdkg3MHqHo

    And here is how mine and Wolfgangs guru taught us to study the subject of “how to avoid being DECEIVED” by the “ignorant or stupid”. And, Jas, we do not consider you to be either ignorant “and/or” stupid.
    The way, to do a 2 Timothy 2:15/2 Peter 1:20, wordstudy:

    http://www.cortright.org/beobey.htm

  24. on 13 May 2013 at 2:15 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    According to Hosea who are these people who were broken off called( ‘You are not my people”) that are AGAIN going to be grafted back called ( ‘My people).

    they were not those of the nations (also known as “the Gentiles”) but those of the house of Israel who would repent …

    You do understand the exiled became known as gentiles after exile dont you?

    I thought they became known as “the lost sheep of the house if ISRAEL” (but not as “the Gentiles” …

    These are the lost sheep Jesus was sent for!!
    Maybe a good reading of Hosea and an understanding of who he was a prophet to will help

    Indeed … but what scriptural basis is there for claiming, implying that “the Gentiles” = “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” ?

  25. on 13 May 2013 at 9:16 amXavier

    Jas

    Maybe a good reading of Hosea and an understanding of who he was a prophet to will help

    Thanks. I’ll keep that in mind. :/

  26. on 13 May 2013 at 11:14 amJas

    Wolfgang
    I recommended Xavier to a good reading of Hosea which will uncover the true reference by Paul in Romans.
    Who are not God’s people throughout the OT , So if the Nothern Kingdom and most of the Southern kingdom who went into captivity were called “not my people” then they became known as Gentiles.
    According to Jeremiah the reunification of both Houses of Israel was to come in the last days and restored back into there land. According to Ezekiel God will gather the house of JOSEPH from the nations where he has scattered them. According to Isaiah God will gather both houses from the 4 corners of the earth where he had scattered them.According to ZECHARIAH God will bring them back.
    According to Amos they were sifted amongst the gentiles.
    According to Hosea they were to become as numerous as the sand of the sea just as prophesied by Jacob when blessing the Sons of Joseph and were to become the fullness of the Gentiles(literal meaning of multitude of nations).
    There are many many more but this should help.

  27. on 13 May 2013 at 11:37 amJas

    Timothy
    Thank you for the links ,they were interesting.

  28. on 13 May 2013 at 1:50 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    So if the Nothern Kingdom and most of the Southern kingdom who went into captivity were called “not my people” then they became known as Gentiles.

    is this your “if … then” conclusion? I don’t see Scripture “redefining” any of the house of Israel (even those who have walked away from their God YHWH) as being “Gentiles” …
    You mention passages which speak of apostate folks of both houses of Israel as having scattered among the Gentiles / sifted among the Gentiles … but that does not say that they either “had become” or “became” nor “became known as” Gentiles.

    According to Hosea they were to become as numerous as the sand of the sea just as prophesied by Jacob when blessing the Sons of Joseph and were to become the fullness of the Gentiles(literal meaning of multitude of nations).

    “were to become the fullness of the Gentiles” ?? from where does this idea come?

  29. on 13 May 2013 at 2:08 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    I understand that accepting these would undermine your belief therefore had already concluded your response.
    If you were to translated Genesis 48:19 yourself you might see the first prophesy of the northern kingdom’s destiny but again that might undermine your belief.

  30. on 14 May 2013 at 5:13 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    With respect to all and FYI…..”Plautdietsch” is the “bridge language” between Hochdeutsch and our KJ English. Our dear ole Martin Luther, took the Stephens Greek NT text scrolls, his fiancee and disiples and went up to the HIGHLANDS of Germany and gave us the first, non Latin translation of the Holy Bible. Quickly to follow were French, English and Spanish. Someone invented printing and the Luther Bible was the first book to be mass produced, thus bringing the Word of GOD to the common man. There was no type then and the pages were hand chiseled with a straight edged chisel to facilitate ease of carving the letters…thus the Franktur type alphabet http://www.fontspace.com/category/fraktur
    was born and was actually invented by a Hebrew(Jewish) artisan> Adolf Hitlers Nazi party adopted the Cool looking alphabet for their propaganda created by Goebels. Hitler had a “CS fit” when he learned that they were using an alphabet invented by a Jew. We now call our non Holy Roman Catholic Church, PROTESTANT from which we get the modern word “protest”. So what is wrong here? PRO=for and testes=witness. To day(or atleat 1970-75, when I was in school, in the then, West Germany) therte are only two denominations=Catholiche and Evangeliche(which actually is from Greek and the Highlands German meaning “witness for”. So ones mind can comprehend that the word today, Protest, comes from Martin Luthers action of “Nailing a list of his disagreements” on the Holy Roman Catholic Church Front Door. He had fallen in love and knew that to full fill his eros love he would need to marry and Priest were forbidden to marry and this was one of many thing he discovered were not in the scriptures=a priest cannot marry. So Luther did a 2 Timothy 2:15 and 2 Peter 1:20 translation and married and raised a large family.

    I lived in Ostfriesland, which was predominantly Evangelist, and the locals spoke “Plautdiesch” after work, at home and on Saturday & Sunday at church. So, since Sir Anthoney Buzzard holds a Dr Degree in German, I am submiting a Plautdietsch Mataeus 25:31-36 for SAB:

    31 En wan dee Menschesaen kome woat enn aul siene Harlichkjeit, en aul siene Enjel met am, dan woat hee opp siene harlichkjeits Troon sette;

    32 en aul dee Natsjoone woare fer am toop jesaumelt woare, en hee woat dee utaneen deele, eena fonn dee aundre soo aus en Hoad de Schop fonne Kose,

    33 en hee woat dee Schop to siene rajchte Sied stale, oba dee Kose aune linkje.

    34 Dan woat dee Kjeenich to daen aune rajchte Sied saje: ‘Komt! dee jie fonn mien Foda jesaeajent sent, oaft daut Rikj daut fa junt reed jemoakt es fonn aunfank de Welt.

    35 Dan mie hungad en jie jeewe mie to aete; mie darscht, en jie jeewe mie to drinkje; ekj wea en Framda, en jie neeme mie opp;

    36 Ekj wea noaktich, en jie jeewe mie Kjleeda; ekj wea krank, en jie besochte mie; ekj wea em Jefenknes, en jie kjeeme no mie.’

  31. on 14 May 2013 at 6:34 amWolfgang

    Jas

    I understand that accepting these would undermine your belief therefore had already concluded your response.

    why is it that you project what pertains to YOU into other people?

    If you were to translated Genesis 48:19 yourself you might see the first prophesy of the northern kingdom’s destiny but again that might undermine your belief.

    Where is there a prophecy about the northern kingdom’s destiny of being scattered in judgment among the nations ?

    Gen 49:19 (NASB)
    But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also shall become a people and he also shall be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.”

    Translate the word “nations” at the end as “people”, and most likely the idea of “nations, Gentiles” is easily corrected.

    Else, when did the descendants of the younger actually become a multitude of NATIONS (“Gentiles”) ? Point is, that they didn’t … they remained “Israel” as a scattered people AMONG the gentiles, nations after being carried away into captivity, etc …

  32. on 14 May 2013 at 8:18 amJas

    Wolfgang
    Its literal translation is FULLNESS of gentiles,people,nations and is the source of its use in NT.

  33. on 14 May 2013 at 9:26 amJas

    “Else, when did the descendants of the younger actually become a multitude of NATIONS (“Gentiles”) ? Point is, that they didn’t … they remained “Israel” as a scattered people AMONG the gentiles, nations after being carried away into captivity, etc …”

    Wolfgang
    The whole point is Ephraim was prophesied to become the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES(nations) and Paul keys on this prophesy in ROMANS 11:25 . Contrary to your claim that
    Ephraim never became known as gentiles is the clear statement in Hosea where God calls the Northern Kingdom “not my people” which means the same as being called Gentiles who were not God’s people. Paul also keys upon Hosea’s prophesy to identify the foolish Nation(singular) that was to provoke Judah to jealousy which was the exiled of Ephraim .Prophet after Prophet says the house of Ephraim,Joseph or Israel was scattered throughout the Gentiles and would be gathered in the future .

  34. on 14 May 2013 at 10:41 amWolfgang

    Jas

    Prophet after Prophet says the house of Ephraim,Joseph or Israel was scattered throughout the Gentiles and would be gathered in the future.

    I am actually saying the very same thing, namely, that the house of Israel was scattered among (throughout) the Gentiles … but I do not claim that this does turn Israelites into Gentiles or make them part of the Gentiles as you seem to suggest

  35. on 14 May 2013 at 10:57 amJas

    Wolfgang
    I do not claim the Northern Kingdom was turned into Gentiles but the Bible claims they were to be CALLED Gentiles which Paul keys upon in Romans as “Not my People” or in contrast to Judah ,.GENTILES.
    Do you agree that the literal translation of “multitude of nations” is “FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES” in Genesis 48:19 which means the very same thing as “FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES” in ROMANS 11:25

  36. on 14 May 2013 at 1:12 pmtimothy

    Jas and Wolfgang,

    Here is some more historical information about German bible translation that may shed some light on the OT translations. There were Hebrew speaking JEWs living in Germany, even in the dark ages? These people had their Hebrew Torah which was even, earlier than Luther, translated into High and Lowland German.

    “Until 1518, it was reprinted at least 13 times. In 1478-1479, two Low German Bible editions were published in Cologne, one in the Low Rhenish dialect and another in the Low Saxon dialect[plautdietsch]. In 1494, another Low German Bible was published in the dialect of Lübeck, and in 1522, the last pre-Lutheran Bible, the Low Saxon Halberstadt Bible was published. In total, there were at least eighteen complete German Bible editions, ninety editions in the vernacular of the Gospels and the readings of the Sundays and Holy Days, and some fourteen German Psalters by the time Luther first published his own New Testament translation.[3] An Anabaptist translation by Ludwig Hetzer and Hans Denck was published at Worms in 1529.[4] Luther would copy entire passages word for word from the Wormser Bibel in his translation.”

    So if we could locate some of these translations or just use Luthers bible which may have coppied them word for word. I have found it profitable to check the Luther bible, especially when concerned with four others being crucified with Christ….Here are the Lutheran buried fallen German solders at Normandy June 6th landing.

    Now this is a side tract from your topic, but a shining example of results from a better translation:

    http://www.dallasnews.com/travel/headlines/20100627-Normandy-cemeteries-also-include-graves-of-3562.ece

  37. on 14 May 2013 at 1:59 pmJas

    Timothy
    Improper translations for the purpose of protection of doctrinal beliefs have infected 99.99% of translations since the common man has had access, before that the RCC just told everyone what they wanted them to believe.
    If You want to know the true translations the prove and reprove they are correct before adopting them as true and without doctrinal bias of the RCC,LUTHER,CALVIN and many others which has caused 30000+ denominations

  38. on 15 May 2013 at 11:11 amtimothy

    Jas,

    Just for conversation, here is some of the/my “thinking about GENTILE”:

    “……..but most commonly as a generic label for peoples. Strong’s Concordance defines goy as “nation, people, usually of non-Hebrew people, or of descendants of Abraham, or of Israel, or of a swarm of locusts or other animals (fig.) Goyim = ‘nations’.” Strongs #1471[1]”

    Quoted from:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile

    I am a native/Florida Cracker from Miami Florida, where there is folklore about all the Jews living there. Many of these Hebrew people resided in Miami after fleeing/escaping Adolph Hitlers Nazi dispensation of Europe. I went to a public junior high, with student ratio of 90 % Hebrews(today it is 95 % Hispanic). Why, because there orthodontic churches were within walking distance of their school district residences.

    Once a week, many of the students also attended “Hebrew School”, could miss school on their Hebrew holidays and others were allowed to eat fish on Fridays. My family was traditionally Congregational, and taught me that I was a “GENTILE” and as most all of the young American Christians we were circumcised at birth. And, I only discovered the Abrahamic meaning of circumcision, when I learned about studying the bible in TWI’s PFAL bible study class.

    I remember how my aunt had a “CS fit” when I informed her that I was not a gentile, but a called member of Jesus Christ church, a christian.

    1 Corinthians 10: (kjv)
    32 Give no offense[Aproskopos],
    either to the Jews or to the Greeks[Hellen] or to the church[ekklesia] of God,…..

    FYI…..CS fit=urban idiom
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=conniption%20shit

    After reading, many times, about our father of Faith, Abraham…..one may see how complicated the promise from GOD is from seeing and following Abrahams seed/DNA, and especially in Genesis and Exodus. The modern way of thinking allows mind pictures of Abrahams seed as his DNA. Even to consider LOT, his brothers son sharing the DNA of TERAH through HARAN, whose DNA came through a round about way to Jesus Christ DNA from his human mother mary.

    Genesis 11: (kjv)
    28 And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans.

    29 Then Abram and Nahor took wives: the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor’s wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran the father of Milcah and the father of Iscah.

    30 But Sarai was barren; she had no child.

    Sarah was daughter of Terah and Aunt to the later wives of son Issak and grandson Jacob, an intermixed DNA, which was good enough for GOD to later father Jesus Christ. Today, our western civilization frowns on “too close” marriages and incest. Some say GOD just winked at what was going on.

    Lot fathered MOAB and AMMON from his two virgin daughters.

    Ruth came from Moabs DNA and BOOZ from RAHAB via BENAMMI/AMMON and MOAB.

    Booz begat Obed of Ruth and then Obed begat Jesse the father of KingDavid.

    Before all of this, Mose gave respect to the Moabites as he entered the Palestine area.

    These are Lots descendants.

    Genesis 19: (kjv)
    37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

    38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

    Deuteronomy 2: (kjv)
    9 And the Lord said unto me, Distress not the Moabites, neither contend with them in battle: for I will not give thee of their land for a possession; because I have given Ar unto the children of Lot for a possession.

    Now I am sure that these Moabite people are Gentiles just as much as Abraham is. Only they themselves are not of Abraham’s seed or the promises GOD made to Abraham about his seeds inheritance. But they have a common DNA for Terah.

    Genesis 25: (kjv)
    23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

    Are the decendance of the elder considered to be the Gentiles you are writing about…..there must be billions of people traceable back to Esau.

    Acts 7: (kjv)
    8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

    Abrahams “bonus” seed/gentiles:

    Genesis 25:1
    1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.

    2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

    3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

    4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

    5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

    6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

    These could be the fathers of Iranian people, who are a different stock than the Babylonians and actually rescued Israel from Babylonia with their king Darius.

  39. on 15 May 2013 at 11:51 amJas

    Timothy
    The name ,designation of gentile has no meaning before Abraham, yet Abraham was called to separate from them. It came into use as a contrast only. when Abraham was called and obeyed God made unconditional promises to him and his offspring after him. These promiseswere passed down to Isaac ,Jacob then Joseph through his youngest son. This is why when Israel was separated into 2 Kingdoms the Northern retained the name while the Southern only retained the promises to Judah and David . In Hosea God divorces the people of Israel removing the contrast between them and other gentiles but also promises He would again marry them in the future. Paul in Romans makes reference to this divorce (not my people) and also makes references to them being remarried by was of renewing there vows and being grafted back in Individually as they again accept the Words of the Covenants that had provided the contrast between them and the gentiles. Now while this offer by God to remarry them was to Israel alone there has always been the option for foreigners to enter a Covenant Relationship with God but these are not who Jesus was to redeem by ratifying the changes to the Covenants but it does make it more accessible to foreigners .
    So no ,what I am writing about is only the dna offspring of Jacob

  40. on 15 May 2013 at 1:00 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    I am following and see that The Acts 10 & 11
    gentiles were:

    Acts 11: (kjv)
    1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles[ethnos] had also received[dechomai] the word of God.

    ethnos=

    a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
    a company, troop, swarm
    a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
    the human family
    a tribe, nation, people group
    in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
    Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

    dechomai=

    to take with the hand
    to take hold of, take up
    to take up, receive
    used of a place receiving one
    to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
    to receive hospitality
    to receive into one’s family to bring up or educate
    of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
    to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one’s own, approve, not to reject
    to receive. i.e. to take upon one’s self, sustain, bear, endure
    to receive, get
    to learn

  41. on 15 May 2013 at 1:28 pmJas

    Timothy
    Yes the name gentile is used in NT in contrast to a Jew(Judean) or someone who had converted to Judaism like the many million edomites and samaritans who were the replacement people by the assyrians . But Jesus was sent Only to the lost sheep of Israel to offer them the means to re-enter the Covenants of which they were alienated from because they were exiled and divorced from the promise. Jesus did this by ratifying the changes needed so they could enter(baptism) and maintain(Lord’s supper) a Covenant relationship to receive the promises made to Abraham.
    Jesus’s sacrifice also brought peace between God and all mankind allowing them to stand before God in judgement with a mediator for only their sins against eachother.

  42. on 15 May 2013 at 2:54 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Thanks for:

    “Jesus’s sacrifice also brought peace between God and all mankind allowing them to stand before God in judgement with a mediator for only their sins against eachother.”

    1 John 4: (kjv)
    20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    1 John 2: (kjv)
    1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    Ephesians 4: (kjv)
    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

    So the wise man would forgive those who sin against him as he ask GOD to forgive him too.

  43. on 16 May 2013 at 9:51 amJas

    Timothy
    Yes it is always wise to forgive but even wiser to not let ourselves be easily offended by differences of opinions of which neither may be correct. The whole point of discussion is to subject ourselves to different points of view to promote critical thinking.

  44. on 16 May 2013 at 1:52 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    You are correct, “do not allow ones self to be offended”, and Jesus taught:

    Matthew 13: (kjv)
    21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation[thlipsis] or persecution[diogmos] ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended[skandalizo].

    skandalizo/skandalon

    to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
    to entice to sin
    to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
    to cause to fall away
    to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
    to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
    since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
    to cause one displeasure at a thing
    to make indignant
    to be displeased, indignant

    skandalon

    the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick
    a trap, snare
    any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
    fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation
    any person or thing by which one is (entrapped) drawn into error or sin

    http://motorcyclepictures.faqih.net/motorbike/figure-4-trap

    Jas, as you seem to agree, there are 30,000 differences between denominations. Which make for a lots of “being offended. I know that my beliefs are probably only several % and seems that yours are too. The major: Jesus Christ is not GOD, the dead are not alive today, there will be resurrections when Jesus Christ returns, the holy spirit manifesting, christian, is just like he, Jesus, was when here present. Jesus is now here everywhere a “walking in the spirit” christian stands. I believe what Jesus promised “the words I spoke, I will remind you of”. Just as he reminded Peter that holy spirit baptism will replace Johns water baptism.

    Sorry that only a few here on KR will join in a more personal relationship, off line/KR.

    There are many things you and Wolfgang are seeing that I do not yet understand. Wolfgangs capacity for the intellectual is huge. And sometimes like this, as Peter spoke concerning Paul:

    2 Peter 3:16
    As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    Here is a christians exhortation:

    Titus 3:10
    A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

    Many are called but only a few are chosen. If only each one would reach one!

  45. on 16 May 2013 at 3:43 pmJas

    Timothy
    You dont actually compare or equate Wolfgang with Paul do you.While I do believe Woifgang’s ability for the intellectual is huge sometimes his stumbling blocks out weighs it when he cant see the forest because he has placed a single tree as his hedge.

  46. on 16 May 2013 at 4:43 pmtimothy

    jas,

    No, the point is, with you and Wolfgang, “in which are some things hard to be understood”.

    I am lost sometimes with your and his thinking.
    I do see that Wolfgang is not the apostle Paul and neither are you, Sean, X or SAB.

    However, Wolfgang has a most high intelligence quotient and a “Higher level of Education” than most. He has language skills to translate between English-German-English and to comprehend the word of GOD with an honest and logical interpretation.

    Like I have written, to bad you will not wish to fellowship on facebook or skype. Somehow here the posters/writers become like HAL the 2001 computer. They only exist when the computer is on. There is a more loving Christian fellowship for those who really wish to be kind and tenderhearted with their spiritual family.

    You know how to contact Sheryl and D Thomas and Wolfgang?

  47. on 16 May 2013 at 5:15 pmJas

    Timothy
    My purpose here is to create discussion and criticism of my beliefs to drive me to search deeper to prove what is acceptable and what is truly biblical.
    I realize my methods and beliefs sometimes are hard to understand which sometimes tend to offend . The fact that my relationship only exist here allows me to be more honest with my beliefs when the contrast could cause me to be less than honest to protect close relationships . At this moment I am not seeking fellowship but if I ever do I could not find a finer bunch then most here.

  48. on 16 May 2013 at 5:29 pmJas

    Timothy
    I think you think education is a measure of intelligence . I see Wolfgang as very educated but low in original thought. I have friends who are very high up in Physics but totally lack in all areas of individual critical thinking.

  49. on 16 May 2013 at 6:28 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    No, I do not think what you think I think. I have known many people with no formal education who have extremely superior intelligence. Low, average and above average and seldom way above average.

    You refuse to consider manifesting holy spirit, your tenderness subject.

    However some who have, are in this category:

    1 Corinthians 2: (kjv)
    16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

    They have put off the “areas of individual critical thinking”. And are given to walking in the spirit.

    Albert Einstein had an extremely high IQ.

    Galatians 5: (kjv)
    9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

    And he, Albert Einstein would instantly notice, one small change has a cumulative effect.

    To the contrary, I consider “low original thought” would describe one who:

    Romans 12: (kjv)
    2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    Here is a “hot teaching” with Seans father:

    http://lhim.org/sunday/teaching_notes.php?id=349&mode=audio&page=2&find_me=

  50. on 16 May 2013 at 7:09 pmJas

    “You refuse to consider manifesting holy spirit, your tenderness subject.”

    Timothy
    I completely believe in the manifestations of The HS, I just see absolutely no evidence of it today or the last 1500 years. The HS is the effect of entering of Covenant Relationship with God but it was also giving temporarily for purposes of prophesy and guidance then was given without measure to Jesus to teach him God’s will and upcoming plans. Jesus actually shared the manifestation with the disciples to give them the tools and proofs to make ready His own visits. The reason I presume why The HS is not amongst us today is because christianity has perverted the Word and there is no way to live without accepting the Babylonian banking system that allows us to buy,sell and trade.
    I do not see Wolfgang in your light but I still respect his knowledge

  51. on 17 May 2013 at 9:06 amSean

    Jas,

    You may want to listen to this resource by David Bercot. In it he surveys the historical evidence for the gifts of the spirit in the centuries after the New Testament.

  52. on 17 May 2013 at 9:24 amJas

    Sean
    TY for resource .
    I have no idea when the church fell away from God out of fear of the one that can kill the body but I am absolutely positive that today no one has the manifestation and gifts of The HS. Satan himself can transform himself into a ministering spirit and only needs people to believe one lie to prevent the manifestation of The HS. My quest is to expose the lies I still might believe by proof and reproof. My beliefs may not be totally correct but I have proved many false beyond the shadow of a doubt and will continue to test.

  53. on 17 May 2013 at 12:21 pmJas

    Timothy
    If I may ask why is it so important to you to get me one on one with you? What do you expect to achieve?

  54. on 17 May 2013 at 1:13 pmXavier

    RE: historical evidence for the gifts of the spirit in the centuries after the New Testament.

    In view of the early church, it appears that the miraculous gifts performed by the apostles and their followers stopped being a common phenomenon by 150 to 200 AD. Counterfeit forms of it continued to crop up for the next 200 years but were in most cases within fringe or extreme groups. By the time of Chrysostom and Augustine, they had completely vanished off the historical landscape. Miraculous Gifts in the Early Church, A Historical Analysis, P.E. Johnston.

    http://www.academia.edu/458797/Miraculous_Gifts_in_the_Early_Church_A_Historical_Analysis

  55. on 17 May 2013 at 2:46 pmJas

    Xavier
    TY for article.
    Actually I see no need for the gifts to cease especially the gifts of languages and interpretation of languages because I see no greater tool in ministry of the Word.
    The gift of healing would also serve as a great proof which would bring many to God . The rest would serve the church even today.
    But why should God aid the church in teaching lies and is probably the reason the ceased .

  56. on 17 May 2013 at 3:07 pmXavier

    Jas

    …why should God aid the church in teaching lies and is probably the reason the ceased.

    I think it is self-evident that the Apostolic churches not only faced lies but the misuse of the gifts [cd. Corinthians].

  57. on 17 May 2013 at 3:26 pmJas

    Xavier
    Possibly in the Corinth they already were following there old pagan practices of speaking in tongues but I doubt they still were manifestating any gifts. The letter was to a church of which was falling away from God through human ego of which Paul did not know to what extent .

  58. on 17 May 2013 at 3:30 pmXavier

    Jas

    I doubt they still were manifestating any gifts

    Where does it say that?

  59. on 17 May 2013 at 3:33 pmJas

    Xavier
    If it stated that I would say in fact. I just doubt it.

  60. on 20 May 2013 at 10:03 pmSheryl

    Xavier, the excerpt from the Academia.edu article is very intriguing. Historical evidence of cessation of HS gifts is as important as historical evidence of political church corruption of who God and His Son are. Did gifts fall away as the church became corrupt…or was this a natural occurrence because the gifts for the early church (to get it rolling, so to speak) were not needed as the gospel spread of its own volition?

    My bottom line when it comes to speaking in tongues is that it is not commanded in the bible, and if it is for today…not everyone will necessarily receive this one of the particular gifts. I have never felt called to SIT, nor edified by any attempt. I know there are others who genuinely feel closer to God as they practice SIT and I don’t begrudge them.

    In a way gifts are with us now…though we don’t see them as very miraculous any more because we understand the mechanisms. Interpretation of foreign tongues can be done on a cell phone. Hospitals have became places of healing. Teaching is done on the computer. Compassion is readily available for acceptance or participation through various forms of media. I dare say that if a first century man were transported through time to today…there would be enough miraculous events to blow his mind.

  61. on 20 May 2013 at 10:22 pmXavier

    Sheryl

    The prevalent doctrine that gifts is defined by speaking in tongues, the easiest “gift” to fake, should be a tip off. Especially when this one gift is tied to salvation.

  62. on 20 May 2013 at 10:48 pmJas

    Sheryl
    Would you at anytime have a conversations with a foreigner about the bible if its wasnt impossible?
    Real speaking in tongues was a tool in the ministry of christians ,why should it be diminished as long as there is many languages . It is not that it has ceased ,its why should God aide even the smallest lie.
    As far as healing there is still uncured diseases and have been the last 1500-2000 years. Did they not deserve to be healed ?
    I think God gave gifts as they were needed to those who re-entered the renewed Covenant and should not ever change unless the gospel has changed.

  63. on 21 May 2013 at 9:29 amJas

    Xavier
    One thing to consider in the historical evidence that the gifts ceased is that most of the unitarian/sabbatarian church writings were destroyed by the roman church during the persecutions of the 4th and 5th century. Jesuits may have also identified the true church by the use of gifts

  64. on 21 May 2013 at 10:43 amXavier

    Jas

    …most of the unitarian/sabbatarian church writings were destroyed by the roman church during the persecutions of the 4th and 5th century.

    What writings? And what’s your evidence for this?

  65. on 21 May 2013 at 11:00 amJas

    Xavier
    Have you not read that when the roman church concluded that a church was heretical they burned all their writings .
    This is witnessed by several early church fathers and also the plain histories.
    There is a virtual library available to all that seek it today, we nolonger have to accept what we are told we can find it ourself without doctrine inserted .

  66. on 21 May 2013 at 11:08 amXavier

    Jas

    Perhaps you could provide some of that “virtual library” on here.

    Thanks.

  67. on 21 May 2013 at 11:46 amJas

    Xavier
    A few years ago I started reading everything on the early church not to teach from but for my own learning or I might have kept notes and references. Should I now do it again for your benefit or should you if you are interested .
    I am just telling you it is there.
    Btw if you are interested in the history of the unitarian church its is easier to find it under the sabbatarian churchs who were the majority of the unitarian church.

  68. on 21 May 2013 at 12:28 pmXavier

    Jas

    So you’re asking us to accept what you say? :p

  69. on 21 May 2013 at 12:36 pmJas

    Xavier
    No, I am not asking anyone to accept anything, but if you want you can try to prove it false.
    I thought everone here understood that I am not interested in teaching, I am interested in discussion and research plus the understanding of other beliefs.
    I am certainly not qualified to teach unless I myself can shed all deceptions caused by men and satan.

  70. on 21 May 2013 at 2:52 pmXavier

    :/

  71. on 21 May 2013 at 3:34 pmJas

    Xavier
    You must be very young

  72. on 22 May 2013 at 6:59 amXavier

    Jas

    Thanks. 😉

  73. on 24 May 2013 at 8:45 pmtimothy

    Pentcost May 16, 2013

    *Clothed with power* Living Hope

    http://lhim.org/sunday/teaching_notes.php?id=475&mode=audio

    Acts 1: (kjv)
    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost[pneuma] not many days hence.

    8 But ye shall receive[lambano] power[dunamis], after that the Holy Ghost[pneuma] is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    [lambano]=receive into manifestation

    [dunamis]=
    “dynamite”
    strength power, ability
    inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
    power for performing miracles
    moral power and excellence of soul
    the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
    power and resources arising from numbers
    power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

    Acts 2: (kjv)
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out[ekecho] of my Spirit[pneuma] upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out[ekecho] in those days of my Spirit[pneuma]; and they shall prophesy

    ekecho=
    to pour out, shed forth
    metaph. to bestow or distribute largely

    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved

    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost[pneuma], he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    John 14: (kjv)
    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter[parakletos], that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit[pneuma] of truth[Aletheia]; whom the world cannot receive[lambano], because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    [Aletheia]=
    objectively
    what is true in any matter under consideration
    truly, in truth, according to truth
    of a truth, in reality, in fact, certainly
    what is true in things appertaining to God and the duties of man, moral and religious truth
    in the greatest latitude
    the true notions of God which are open to human reason without his supernatural intervention
    the truth as taught in the Christian religion, respecting God and the execution of his purposes through Christ
    subjectively
    truth as a personal excellence
    that candour[Parrhesia] of mind which is free from affection, pretence, simulation, falsehood, deceit

    2 Timothy 1: (kjv)
    7 For God hath not given us the spirit[pneuma] of fear[deiliva]; but of power[dunamis], and of love[agape], and of a sound mind[Sophronismos].

    [deiliva]=
    timidity, fearfulness, cowardice

    [Sophronismos]=
    an admonishing or calling to soundness of mind, to moderation and self-control
    self-control, moderation

    [Parrhesia]=
    fearless candour

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrhesia

    1 Corinthians 12: (kjv)
    1 Now concerning spiritual[pneumatikos] xxxxx, brethren, I would not have you ignorant[agnoeo].

    1 Corinthians 14: (kjv)
    38 But if any man be ignorant[agnoeo], let him be ignorant[agnoeo].

    [agnoeo]=
    to be ignorant, not to know
    not to understand, unknown
    to err or sin through mistake, to be wrong

    [pneumatikos]=
    Spiritual Matters
    relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
    that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
    belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
    belonging to the Divine Spirit
    of God the Holy Spirit
    one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
    pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

  74. on 25 May 2013 at 5:25 pmJas

    Timothy
    While everything in your post is correct it is no great insight just someone looking up meanings.
    It certainly doesnt prove you are guided by the HS ,so can you provide me with one proof ,to offset the post where you set out to offend me like the one where you claimed I was retarded or had a form of epilepsy . No fake one like SIT unless you can put 10 people of foreign language together and all can hear understand what you say by hearing you in their native language .

  

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