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An evangelical, a unitarian, and a Muslim discuss the identity of Jesus at a forum held in Melbourne, Australia, on 17th July 2013. This was a discussion jointly hosted by City Bible Forum and CrossCulture Church of Christ between three different views on Jesus.

The evening started with 8 minute opening statements by each presenter, then moderated discussion followed by a 2 minute closing.

A Trinitarian Christian – Dr. Bernie Power (Melbourne School of Theology).
A Muslim – Shahir Naga (1God.com.au)
A Unitarian Christian – Steve Katsaras (Red Words Church).

This is the complete presentation. You can download the audio here or subscribe to the christianmonotheism podcast.

401 Responses to “Jesus: Prophet, Messiah, or God?”

  1. on 02 Aug 2013 at 9:54 amJaco

    Thumbs up to Steve!!!

    I think he did a splendid job! Bernie Power was not that powerful at all and Shahir Naga did not challenge the biblical understanding of Jesus really.

    I think more such conversations should be had. They should also be had on bigger forums. Maybe Bernie Power and Steve should debate each other one-on-one, at the Melbourne School of Theology.

    This forum was really enjoyable…

  2. on 05 Aug 2013 at 9:38 pmSarah

    I second that! This was a great forum. I especially appreciated the cordial tone of all three participants. Steve articulated the Biblical Unitarian position clearly and compellingly. No doubt he gave the audience much to think about.

  3. on 07 Aug 2013 at 8:52 amDr Ali

    Excellent !

    It is the first time that i saw Unitarians included in a dialogue that has to represent Christianity ! , always it used to be the Trinitarians .

    Plus ,a lot of similarities between the Unitarians and Muslims .

    Bernie ………contradicted his own self , first he said God is beyond understanding , then he said he became man . God-man is a paradox .
    The ‘ehad’ point is also lame , there are many places in the Bible where it is used for numerical one .

    Shahir…….Denied crucifixion , well , that is based on verse 4:157 in the Quran . Scholars today are pointing out that the verse does not deny the historicity of crucifixion rather it is negating the Jewish boast of killing the Messiah of God and putting off the plan of God. He also said God cant allow his select to die like that , well , again the Quran mentions the Jews used to kill prophets.

    Steve….. great bro !

  4. on 07 Aug 2013 at 9:24 amDr Ali

    I think Shahir was the one who was quoting the Bible more extensively than the other two , great ! , a Muslim quoting the Bible more than Christians and that too not to deny it but to show the truth in it !

  5. on 07 Aug 2013 at 9:56 amXavier

    At one point the Evangelical said “death in God rather than the death of God”. :/

    Steve told me that he’s apparently interested in the biblical unitarian view which he did not hereto encounter it.

  6. on 07 Aug 2013 at 10:22 amSarah

    Xavier,

    Steve told me that he’s apparently interested in the biblical unitarian view which he did not hereto encounter it.

    Really? That’s awesome! I remember thinking Bernie looked genuinely interested as Steve made his case.

  7. on 08 Aug 2013 at 8:33 amXavier

    Sarah

    Yep, we got the same impression, he seemed to be genuinely intently listening and taking notes. Let’s pray for him and the 200+ who were in attendance.

  8. on 08 Aug 2013 at 2:16 pmJas

    Xavier
    What are you praying for? Can you give them Grace? Can you provide them with Salvation? Are they condemned without your belief? Are you the Way?
    Yes My hope is everyone including myself could be shown the whole truth but deluding ourselves into believing we are the only Way is without proof.
    I realize very well I am not very popular here but searching for the truth is not a popularity contest. I can come across as harsh which rub many here the wrong way which some have used to accuse me of breaking rules.
    But as long as there is someone condemning people of other beliefs by making Grace conditional then I will ask these type of questions.

  9. on 11 Aug 2013 at 12:35 amScott

    Patrick Navas,

    I am in the middle of reading your book, Divine Truth or Human Tradition, and I must say that it is excellent, especially the part on John 1:1. However, I cannot see your logic on Hebrews 1:2. If Christ is said to be the “facsimile/copy of his (God’s) being,” would that not make him of the same nature as the Father? If I create a facsimile of your book “Divine Truth or Human Tradition,” is not the copy by nature exactly the same as the original? Is it possible that charakter simply means “emblem” or “insignia” instead of “copy”?

  10. on 11 Aug 2013 at 3:16 amSheryl

    Hi Scott, Patrick would do a much better job of answering your question but may I offer up my understanding of Christ being a “copy of God’s nature”? I guess I’m going to anyway… 😉

    When Patrick wrote his original book it was THE original … there was no other original. The copies (one of which I was fortunate to read) are copies of that original, but it does not make any one of them “the original.” The fact that Christ was a copy means precisely that he cannot also be the original. Or else the Bible would have simply stated Christ was The Father, Jehovah God, the all-in-all. What the Bible does say is that Christ was the perfect representative, the perfect image of the original.

    Jas — do I understand you to mean that Grace is given to everyone, even the unsaved, and it’s our own choice whether or not to accept it? And believing and accepting God’s gift of Grace through Jesus is our salvation?

  11. on 11 Aug 2013 at 9:09 pmJas

    Sheryl
    I am not sure you can even accept or reject Grace till judgement otherwise it would give ocassion for boasting . But I do think faith and many other acts can be an advantage in our live to keep us from committing an unforgiveable sin but none can be a condition.
    Most people try to mix Grace with the Reward which is extremely conditional but most just pick and choose what conditions they can follow blindfolded out of lack of understanding the promise”S” made to Abraham. Grace is Grace which can not be earned by any act otherwise it would make void the promise that All families would be blessed.
    Also Salvation has several different meanings in the bible.
    First you must figure out just what you are Saved from.
    Saved from premature physical death or a shortened life in the land by being given a prolong life by resurrection of the Saints in the land promised to Abraham as a personal possession ( extremely conditional
    Saved from eternity in the Grave ,allowed judgement and a mediator( councilor ) because of Grace FOR ALL.
    Saved from eternal judgement or 2nd death by being given immortality
    If Jesus was the blessing spoke of to Abraham that brough Grace to ALL then why must christiians claim Jesus did not accomplish this blessing FOR ALL. Yes Jesus also fulfilled the Aaronic Covenant for Israel by ratfying the New Priesthood Covenant by which Israel can be forgiven by baptism and be taught in kept by HS.

  12. on 12 Aug 2013 at 12:02 pmSheryl

    Jas, How do you describe salvation then? I understand that Grace is for all, but it seems to me the Bible says not everyone is “saved.” God wishes that all will be saved, but many are called and few are chosen, the road to perdition is wide and the gate to the Kingdom is narrow, and list of who will be admitted into the Kingdom is restricted, etc. Everyone will be resurrected, some to the second death and others to life in the age to come. In my mind “Salvation” means being saved from the second death. So Grace is unearned and unconditional, but Kingdom entrance (ie eternal life) is definitely conditional. Is that your view as well?

  13. on 12 Aug 2013 at 1:29 pmPatrick

    Hi Scott,

    Thanks for the question. I think Sheryl pretty much summed up the way I would respond to your inquiry, but I’ll try to clarify further.

    The point about Heb. 1:2 is perhaps better understood in light of the tradition Trinitarian claim. According to Trinitarianism, Jesus and the Father, though distinct as ‘persons,’ are nevertheless the same ‘being’ (homousious)—the same God. But Scripture, in fact, nowhere actually says that the Father and Son are the “same being.” If it did I would accept it. Rather, Scripture describes the Son—already pointed out by you and Sheryl—as a “facsimile/copy/representation/reproduction” of God’s “being.” All of these are good ways of translating/expressing the sense of the Greek term charakter.

    Although I’m only pointing out the obvious, the idea of (1) “the same being” and the idea of (2) “a copy of” someone’s being are two different concepts.

    By the use of the word charakter, the author of Hebrews paints a very clear picture (metaphor) that helps us to comprehend the nature of the Father-Son relationship.

    In the ancient world, when people wanted to make an official document, melted wax would be placed on a document or envelope. The hot wax would then be stamped by some sort of stamp or signet ring—serving as a seal or signature/mark of authentication/authority from the author/sender of the document. Consequently, the stamp/signet ring would leave an impression in the wax that would be the “exact representation/image/copy” of the original emblem on the stamp/signet ring. Sheryl is right for pointing out that the picture/image/impression left in the wax would result in an exact “copy/representation” of the original emblem of the ring/stamp. What this tells about Jesus’ relationship to God’s being is very clear. Just as the image on the wax is not the original, not the ring or emblem itself, yet is a perfect representation of it as an image, so Jesus, God’s Son, is a perfect representation of God, but not literally God himself. In other words, God is the original. Jesus is the copy/representation of the original, not the original. The charakter metaphor is a very simple one and makes perfect sense especially when we remember that we are talking about a Father/Son relationship. I think Paul’s “image of the invisible God” language expresses the same basic point about the Father-Son relationship. In this case, Jesus is not the invisible God but the invisible God’s image or representation. If Paul wanted us to believe that Jesus was the invisible God all he would have had to do is say, “He is the invisible God,” but he didn’t. Likewise, if the author of Hebrews wanted us to think that Jesus and God are the same being all he would have had to say was, “He is…one who [eternally] shares God’s being” or “He is…the same being as God” but, instead, he said something else.

    The word “nature” is ambiguous, meaning different things to different people. There is no problem in thinking that the Father and Son share the same nature if by that we mean the nature of holiness, goodness, righteousness, etc. According to Peter, even Christians will be “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).

    Some Trinitarian apologists have tried to argue that, if Jesus is the “exact representation/copy” of God’s being, Jesus must be eternal/without beginning like God. The argument has no validity. Is an “exact copy” of my (original) book the same age as the original book because it is an “exact copy”?

    Hope this helps,

    Patrick

  14. on 12 Aug 2013 at 1:55 pmXavier

    Pat

    You still struggling with the preexistence issue?

  15. on 12 Aug 2013 at 4:46 pmPatrick

    Hi Carlos,

    Not struggling through the issue at present. Of course my mind will always remain open to new light, but for now I’m content to remain agnostic and open to both interpretations.

    Patrick

  16. on 12 Aug 2013 at 10:01 pmJas

    Sheryl
    Defining salvation is depending on the context but the salvation that Grace brings is from certain eternal death that the sin of Adam placed upon All humankind , the total inability to stand face to face with God for judgement that eternal life comes by. Jesus redeemed ALL MANKIND. Now God also spoke of a different Grace within the 10 Commandmente but it was conditional upon doing God Will plus it only provided for a prolong life in the land in body much like Adam’s (1000 years possible)while God makes good his promise to Abraham to personally possess ALL the Land shown him which is another definition of Salvation .Most of the confusion comes from Paul because he emphasizes first that everyone is saved by Grace then second the reward of being in a Covenant Relationship with God which is a choice but not mandatory for a shot at eternal life based upon how you treat your fellow human.
    Yes salvation is being saved from 2nd death or comlplete certain eternal death

  17. on 13 Aug 2013 at 9:53 amRay

    When speaking of Jesus coming into this world in the flesh, being born of a woman, which of the following is true?

    When Jesus came to become a man:

    A. Righteousness came in the flesh.
    B. Truth and justice became a living being in the flesh.
    C. Love as God intended became a man.
    D. All the goodness of God himself became flesh.

    Is is so wrong if a man describes Jesus in one word, that word being “God”.?

  18. on 13 Aug 2013 at 11:11 amJas

    Ray
    You can describe Jesus anyway you want except El Elyon(Most High God). I actually belief Jesus was exalted to God status in authority at his ascension but that does not make him a God by nature.
    Btw Jesus became a man when he was about 12 years old before that he was a child

  19. on 13 Aug 2013 at 3:20 pmRay

    It’s not robbery for Christians to compare Jesus with the Father and to find out that in so many inumerable ways, there are the same, for the same was in the beginning with God. If we want to find a thief, we may have to look somewhere else.

  20. on 13 Aug 2013 at 4:30 pmJas

    Ray
    You are keying upon a very very poor translation.

    NET © 1 who though he existed in the form of God 2 did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

    NIV ©
    Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    NASB ©
    who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    Form is just likeness as we all are made in the likeness

    Its very sad that some translators must deceive to protect their unscriptural doctrines

  21. on 14 Aug 2013 at 1:59 pmMatthew

    I thought this was a great debate. However I don’t think having two Christians and one Muslim is all that helpful. The Muslim comes at the Bible from a different perspective than the other two, so without a central authority between the three it makes for all sorts of jumping around. But I would like to see more debates between Unitarians and Muslims since the Trinity would not be an issue.

    Go Steve!

  22. on 01 Sep 2013 at 8:39 pmSteve

    Watched the debate, Steve took top honors. Knew his stuff and shot from the hip, very impressive. Shahir unfortunately was short changed on time and I had to rewind a few times to understand his points, and he had some good ones most of which came from the Bible. Bernie seemed to perk up a few times when Steve was laying down his view I had never heard particularly Jesus trial. I also saw Steve nodding in agreement with the words Bernie was saying but I knew when Trinitarians talk they sometimes have a quite different interpretation of the literal words coming out of there mouth.
    Works for them.
    Matthew,
    That’s funny about 2 Christians and 1 Muslim.. If we stick with the title of the debate Bernie was the odd man out. Steve and Shahir both agree Jesus was a prophet, Messiah and NOT God.
    And so do I.

  23. on 02 Oct 2013 at 12:02 pmJohn B

    A most interesting debate!

    I think it is easy to forget that ‘nature’ and ‘identity’ are NOT the same thing.

    It is also easy to forget that a ‘copy’ is NEVER the same thing as the original.

    I read an interesting comment made by Adela Yarbro Collins in a 1998 document emanating from St. Andrews Iniversity.

    She stressed the significance of scroll 4Q491 fragment 11 which reflected the thoughts of the Qumram community at that time.
    The community anticipated the divinisation of a human being.
    LIkewise the “Son of Man’ in the Similitudes of Enoch ‘participates in God’s unique sovereignty’ rather than sharing in God’s identity.
    He, like Jesus is worshipped as God’s divine agent -NOT God per se!

    Followers of Jesus may have been aware of this thinking!
    Every Blessing
    John

  24. on 28 Aug 2015 at 6:13 pmRay

    I heard John Hagee say that Satan has a trinity, himself, Antichrist, and the false prophet.

    I believe God also has a trinity.

  25. on 28 Aug 2015 at 6:14 pmRay

    Comparatively speaking, I trust I can say rightly that Jesus is the most high God.

  26. on 28 Aug 2015 at 11:09 pmJas

    Luke 8:28

    When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.”

    Mark 5:7

    And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”

  27. on 29 Aug 2015 at 10:28 amRay

    Seeing Jesus as God is a matter of perspective. I once read an article by Rick Joyner called “When God Walked The Earth”, and it was written about Jesus walking the earth as he did, from the perspective of the angels, because of something he experienced by revelation.

    It’s been revealed in scripture that the Lord is both the Lion and the Lamb.

    When he returns, how is he going to be revealing himself? I suppose as both. The question is will we be ready, and also, can we help others get ready also?

    If I may say something from a certain perspective, may I say that Jesus is the Lord God Almighty? He is that, even as he is the Son of God.

  28. on 29 Aug 2015 at 10:58 amJas

    Ray
    To even hint that Jesus is The Almighty God would infer that the Most High died and Jesus filled that vacuum or Jesus took this by force by proving he was greater than the Father which would make him the Adversary (Satan).
    Could you say the resurrected Jesus is now a Mighty God without taking away from the ALL MIGHTY MOST HIGH GOD?Yes as .long as you see it was given to him.
    Does a Father owe his existence to a Son? No so how do think Jesus feels about you demoting His Father?

  29. on 29 Aug 2015 at 6:39 pmRay

    Jas,

    This is apparently a hearing test you determine to fail. In no way when one compares Jesus to God and the result is that he does not fall short in anything or everything that God is, does that even remotely suggest what you are suggesting.

  30. on 29 Aug 2015 at 7:06 pmJas

    Ray
    Jesus falls short because God created Jesus, Jesus says the Father is greater which Paul confirms by stating God is head(Lord) over Jesus which is a post resurrection statement. All authority was given to Jesus to be head(Lord) of the Church.
    Probably dozens more which state Jesus is God’s servant.
    So if you are fine with making Jesus something he is not and then demoting the Father by making Jesus the Lord over the Father then go ahead. God did give you freewill but judgment is His.

  31. on 29 Aug 2015 at 10:14 pmRay

    Jas,

    You fell short in the first part because Jesus was from everlasting with God, being a part of him. Yes, Jesus said the Father is greater than he and he is the head of Christ, who is the fullness of God.

    Being the fullness of God, qualifies him as being God in our eyes.
    Being the express image of his person qualifies him as being God in our perspective.

    Do you have any more things to say about Jesus falling short of God in your opinion? There are so many things to be said about Jesus being God that can become a list as long as eternity worships God and his praises fill the heavens, and it will shine in brightness forever.

    So do you want to shine, or fall short?

  32. on 29 Aug 2015 at 10:24 pmJas

    Ray
    I would rather know the True God and His Servant The Man called Jesus then your gods

  33. on 29 Aug 2015 at 10:38 pmRay

    Jas, if you are sincere in what you are saying above then read this and believe it:

    Isaiah 11.

    Jesus is God Almighty, just as true as the Father himself, for he serves God as God wills to be served and by inheritance has been given all authority in heaven and earth.

  34. on 29 Aug 2015 at 10:53 pmJas

    Ray
    Have read Isaiah dozens of dozens times. I understand you were shown this as a proof text and will bet you have ever read all of Isaiah.
    Everything must be read in the context of historical, cultural and the mindset of author.
    Isaiah 11 was about a Human King Messiah that lived nearly 700 years before Jesus.
    If you continue to just read parts without context there is no telling what crazy ideology you come here with next time.
    Good luck with your gods

  35. on 30 Aug 2015 at 11:00 amRay

    Jas,

    Have you made a god of the Jesus is the Son of God doctrine?

    Certainly the doctrine is true and is of God, and is necessary for our salvation. We can not be born again without that doctrine. It is absolutely necessary for salvation, but has it become your idol which you serve rather than serving Christ?

  36. on 30 Aug 2015 at 11:04 amRay

    Jesus: Prophet, Messiah, or God?

    All of the above.

  37. on 30 Aug 2015 at 12:10 pmJas

    Ray
    No but what I have done was is read the truth with its context. I have not formed any doctrine on the man Jesus . What I have done is give proper credit to the Most High God who promised a human man in the BLOODLINE of David who would follow God’s will not his own redeeming mankind from the curse of remaining in the grave forever that Adam’s sin caused. This was accomplished with his perfection unto death not by his death,burial, and resurrection which only concerns Israel and the atonement of Israel sins only.
    Jesus would not even exist without the promise.
    What you pre existent god believers do is make God into a person who enjoyed the suffering of Mankind when at any point he could have sent Jesus to redeem mankind. Seth could have been this Jesus . Your belief reads like greek mythology .

  38. on 30 Aug 2015 at 5:39 pmRay

    Jas,

    What you have done Jas, is make an idol out of the Jesus is the Son of God doctrine, which is right doctrine.

    You just do the wrong thing with it. You turn it into something it was never meant to be.

    Those who know the truth about Jesus existing from everlasting in and with God the Father, along with the Holy Spirit, do not do as your last lines above accuse people of.

    I really don’t know the thought process of that kind of accusation of the saints. Please explain it if you can.

  39. on 30 Aug 2015 at 6:12 pmJas

    Ray
    The title Son of God was given to others beside Jesus like Solomon , over 30 people are called Christ in the Bible.
    What I have is a Most High God Doctrine that NOTHING COMPARES WITH. Jesus was a MAN who chose the WILL of GOD over his, he had a beginning, he had a GOD and the very same doctrine about Him as I do.
    Of what great feat would it be for an equal to God to come to be perfect in his own laws to redeem mankind from the sin of a man who was not a God.
    Why not just create Adam as a God who can not sin or why did not Jesus just tend the Garden.
    How ridiculous is it to prophesy about someone coming when they already existed. Your doctrine has millions dying in the flood when all Jesus had to do was to send them the Spirit of God to teach them right from wrong .Just think everyone could have been living in the heaven on earth if Jesus was not such a procrastinator . Why did your Jesus not care enough about these people.
    It is fact that I don’t believe in your god, I believe in the one who promised a human man in the BLOODLINE of David who would follow God’s will not his own redeeming mankind from the curse of remaining in the grave forever that Adam’s sin caused.

  40. on 30 Aug 2015 at 7:55 pmRay

    Jas,

    It’s not so silly to prophesy about people who existed on earth to come into heaven, who once lived on the earth. Likewise it is not silly for the scriptures to prophesy about one who existed in heaven, and then came down from heaven to live and exist on the earth, something that Jesus indeed did.

    He both existed with God before the creation, with God the Father in heaven. The scriptures testify that God made all things through Jesus Christ his Son, which does indeed make Jesus the maker of all things, as well as God the Father himself.

    When Jesus walked the earth just as if God the Father himself would have if he were to have been the Son, (simply meaning that Jesus did the Father’s perfect will) he did this through faith and obedience to God who revealed things of the kingdom of heaven as the need arose.

    I trust that the Holy Spirit also brought things into his remembrance, things pertaining to the glory he had with the Father before he came into this world.

  41. on 30 Aug 2015 at 8:10 pmRay

    I find it amazing that people can find it perfectly acceptable that heaven will be filled with people who once had a pre-existent life in this world, but find it completely unacceptable that Jesus had a pre-existent life with the Father in heaven before he came into this world.

    On what basis do they form such an opinion? Certainly not upon scripture.

  42. on 30 Aug 2015 at 9:30 pmTimoteo

    Ray,

    You babel with more and more silliness, even after many years of reading on this Kingdom Ready blog.

    Jas is doing a wonderful teaching, lovingly trying to rescue you from your silliness.

    2 Timothy 2: (kjv)
    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

  43. on 30 Aug 2015 at 9:32 pmJas

    Ray
    Most people who have actually read the bible without a formed doctrine are the ones who deny your trinity.
    Seems most of the sheeple who believe the trinity read a condensed version call the Proof Text Condensed Version. It is all an obedient trinitarian needs.
    Where was your Jesus when Israel was in bondage in Egypt , when Israel needed a righteous King. Why would God flat out mislead Eve about Her Offspring crushing Satan while he hid that her offspring already existed with enough power to crush satan right then. Your God must take delight in punishing people for your Jesus’ laziness or maybe his fear of Satan .
    You once claimed it was Jesus in a mans body who visited Abraham,could he have ended it right there. Any day at anytime your Jesus could have took the form of a man to offer himself as a sacrifice yet 4000 years past while he twiddled his thumbs.
    All this plus the truth of the Bible makes your belief read like mythology.

  44. on 30 Aug 2015 at 9:53 pmJas

    Ray
    The only thing that makes sense with all the prophecy starting with Eve ending with David is Jesus had to evolve from certain bloodline within the 6000 years God set aside as the 1 in 100 billion or more.
    Your Jesus had no reason to wait and my Jesus had no reason to wait. The difference is my Jesus took action immediately .

  45. on 30 Aug 2015 at 11:34 pmRay

    When the fullness of time came, God sent his only begotten Son into the world. Gal 4:4.

  46. on 30 Aug 2015 at 11:46 pmJas

    But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out his Son born of a woman born under the law,

    Ray yes this happened when Jesus was about 30, prior to God sending him into the world he was born of a women which meant he was 100% human(cultural context ).
    Jesus also sent his disciples into the world

  47. on 31 Aug 2015 at 5:01 amRay

    John 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

  48. on 31 Aug 2015 at 5:02 amRay

    correction: last line should read “before the world was.”

  49. on 31 Aug 2015 at 5:08 amRay

    Timoteo,

    Do you believe Jesus babbled silliness in John 17:5? I do not.

  50. on 31 Aug 2015 at 8:54 amJas

    John 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

    Ray nowhere in the Greek of this verse does it say with the glory which I had , the literal reading would be with the glory which YOU had which would make perfect sense because Jesus just glorified God in his World so Jesus is asking God to glorify him with his World by finishing the Work he started before the World existed which would be to raise Jesus from the dead.
    Ray lay down your Proof Text Bible so you can read whole passages in context

  51. on 31 Aug 2015 at 8:54 amTimoteo

    Ray,

    NO!

    And you, Ray, are not Jesus.

    consider this view:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaLwFNm5qRs

  52. on 31 Aug 2015 at 9:49 amJas

    Let me simplify .
    It was the Plan that existed before the world was. It is the finishing of this work that would glorify the work Jesus finished therefore Glorifying Jesus

  53. on 31 Aug 2015 at 6:15 pmRay

    It seems clear to me that when Jesus spoke what we read in John 17:5, he was looking to the other side of the cross, to going back unto the Father right after it was all finished, back to the place of glory he knew of.

  54. on 31 Aug 2015 at 6:19 pmRay

    Jesus knew of heaven because that’s where he came from, before he came into this world. He experienced the glory with the Father before the world even was.

  55. on 31 Aug 2015 at 6:41 pmRay

    When Jesus said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions.”, do you suppose he walked those places? I do.

  56. on 31 Aug 2015 at 7:45 pmJas

    You can seem what you want but it does not say that nor does the context allow it. What you read is the translators doctrine.
    Jesus knew things because God told him.
    Highly doubtful considering neither the restored Kingdom of Israel or New Heaven had been created yet.
    Do you understand what a prophet is and what heavenly things was shown them.Do you suppose they walked there?

  57. on 01 Sep 2015 at 4:18 amRay

    Jesus made all things in the beginning with God, for as the scripture says, “all things were created by him, and without him nothing was made that was made.” (John 1:3)

  58. on 01 Sep 2015 at 4:50 amRay

    No doubt that Jesus knew things about God because he experienced them with him, even before the world began, and that these things were brought to his knowledge and remembrance through the Holy Spirit while he walked this earth during his ministry of the gospel that we read about in the gospels.

    It’s an amazing gospel. I’m amazed when I think about how he came to be born into this world. As a little baby in Bethlehem, I wonder what he was aware of as far as his past experience with the Father in heaven.

    I can only conclude that these things came to him later on by the Spirit of God.

  59. on 01 Sep 2015 at 8:53 amJas

    Jesus made all things in the beginning with God, for as the scripture says, “all things were created by him, and without him nothing was made that was made.” (John 1:3)

    Ray
    Jesus was not the Word but did receive the fullness of the Word bodily. This was the proof John was given by God that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah,Prophet and King.
    Again lay down your Proof text bible

    1:33 And I did not recognize him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining –

    Peter explains this Anointing with the Word which was One of the Holy Spirits main functions
    Acts
    10:36 You know 95 the message 96 he sent to the people 97 of Israel, proclaiming the good news of peace 98 through 99 Jesus Christ 100 (he is Lord 101 of all) – 10:37 you know what happened throughout Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John announced: 102 10:38 with respect to Jesus from Nazareth, 103 that 104 God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power. He 105 went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, 106 because God was with him.

  60. on 01 Sep 2015 at 6:56 pmRay

    Yes it’s true, Jesus is the Word of God which was in the beginning with God and the one by whom God made everything. It was through Jesus Christ that God made everything that was made. Jesus is Lord of all. All of creation will praise him to the glory of God. Every knee shall bow, and every eye will behold him. It was of the Father’s good pleasure to give his only begotten Son such an excellent name, above all other names in heaven and earth. There is no other name given whereby we must be saved.

  61. on 01 Sep 2015 at 7:09 pmRay

    John 9:39
    And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and they which see might be made blind.

    Prov 4:18
    But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

  62. on 01 Sep 2015 at 7:32 pmRay

    I wonder what the man of John 9 knew of Jesus. Perhaps very little, but he had clay on his eyes which he needed to wash off, and so he went as he was told to do by Jesus. Maybe he had hope, maybe he had faith, but he had clay on his eyes that he needed to wash off.

  63. on 01 Sep 2015 at 7:53 pmRay

    Short quiz.

    Who was Jesus saying that he was in John 10:30?
    a. God
    b. The Son of God

    I believe the best answer is b. (see John 10:36)

  64. on 01 Sep 2015 at 8:20 pmJas

    Ray
    “The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining”
    Do you not think God Is the Word and can send His Word out descending upon a person and remain which is where it differs from the OT Prophets because the Word descended upon them but did not take up residence .
    You should read the Prophets!!!
    BTW the Name he Gave Jesus meant Yah’s Salvation which is a statement like other names. But the name that is above All is the Part of Jesus’ name that signified who his God Was.
    Jesus was not the First Begotten , he was the uniquely begotten by his resurrection. This is when he became the firstborn of the dead but before that he was adopted by God at his baptism.
    Ray many have been called the Son Of God but none by being begotten by the resurrection of the dead till Jesus .
    Not very many people of the trinity ever get shown the truth like you have been shown here over and over again. Not many people would take the time to teach you but you are a part of this blog and we care.

  65. on 01 Sep 2015 at 10:08 pmTimoteo

    Ray’

    James has just written to you:

    “Not very many people of the trinity ever get shown the truth like you have been shown here over and over again. Not many people would take the time to teach you but you are a part of this blog and we care.”

    I too have seen all the same truth which is being shown to you!

    I believe Jas is truly speaking for GOD as he shares that which he unravels about Jesus not pr-existing his natural human conception and birth.

    And especially the falsehood of a holy trinity.

    I too care about your rescue from the trinity trap.

    Romans 8: (KJV)
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

  66. on 01 Sep 2015 at 10:36 pmJas

    Ray
    SHE Wisdom was the FIRST CREATED, Jesus was not mentioned. John links the Spirit that descended and remained on Jesus as the Word aka WISDOM, HOLY SPIRIT.

    1:1 In the beginning was the Wisdom, and the Wisdom was with God, and the Wisdom was fully God. 1:2 The Wisdom was with God in the beginning. 1:3 All things were created by Her, and apart from Her not one thing was created that has been created.

    Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending like a dove from heaven, and it remained on him. 1:33 And I did not recognize him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining – this is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 1:34 I have both seen and testified that this man is the Chosen One of God.”

    James 3:17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

    God made the earth by His power; He established the world by His wisdom and by His understanding and skill stretched out the heavens. Jeremiah 10: 12

    8:22 The Lord created 39 me as the beginning 40 of his works, 41
    before his deeds of long ago.
    8:23 From eternity I was appointed, 42
    from the beginning, from before the world existed. 43
    8:24 When there were no deep oceans 44 I was born, 45
    when there were no springs overflowing 46 with water;
    8:25 before the mountains were set in place –
    before the hills – I was born,
    8:26 before he made the earth and its fields, 47
    or the beginning 48 of the dust of the world.
    8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
    when he marked out the horizon 49 over the face of the deep,
    8:28 when he established the clouds above,
    when the fountains of the deep grew strong, 50
    8:29 when he gave the sea his decree
    that the waters should not pass over his command, 51
    when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
    8:30 then I was 52 beside him as a master craftsman, 53
    and I was his delight 54 day by day,
    rejoicing before him at all times,
    8:31 rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, 55
    and delighting 56 in its people. 57
    8:32 “So now, children, 58 listen to me;
    blessed are those who keep my ways.
    8:33 Listen to my instruction 59 so that you may be wise, 60
    and do not neglect it.
    8:34 Blessed is the one 61 who listens to me,
    watching 62 at my doors day by day,
    waiting 63 beside my doorway. 64
    8:35 For the one who finds me finds 65 life
    and receives 66 favor from the Lord.
    8:36 But the one who does not find me 67 brings harm 68 to himself; 69

  67. on 01 Sep 2015 at 10:57 pmJas

    Ray
    Here is the original baptism of Jesus in The Gospel According to Matthew in Hebrew.

    After the people were baptized, Jesus also came and was baptized by John. And as Jesus came up from the water, Heaven was opened, and He saw the Holy Spirit descend in the form of a dove and enter into Him. And a voice from Heaven said, ‘You are my beloved Son; with You I am well pleased.’ And again, ‘Today I have begotten You.’ “Immediately a great light shone around the place; and John, seeing it, said to Him, ‘Who are you, Lord? And again a voice from Heaven said, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.’ Then John, falling down before Him, said, ‘I beseech You, Lord, baptize me!’ But He forbade him saying, ‘Let it be so; for thus it is fitting that all things be fulfilled.’” (Epiphanius, Panarion 30.13.7)

    In the Gospel written in the Hebrew script that the Nazarenes read, the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descends upon Him, for God is Spirit and where the Spirit resides, there is freedom. Further in the Gospel which we have just mentioned we find the following written: “When the Lord came up out of the water the whole fount of the Holy Spirit descended upon Him and rested on Him saying, ‘My Son, in all the prophets was I waiting for You that You should come and I might rest in You. For You are My rest. You are My first begotten Son that prevails forever.’ ” (Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah 4

    Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of my hairs and carry me away on to the great mountain Tabor. (Origen, Commentary on John 2.12.87)

  68. on 01 Sep 2015 at 11:02 pmRay

    Christ is wisdom unto us and he is the light of the world that enlightened men who received the wisdom that comes from God. He was in the world by the Spirit of God, though men did not know him by the name of Jesus. God sent him into the world that he might be manifest to as many as would receive him by the power of the gospel. I believe Proverbs 8 prophesies about him as well as other scriptures.

  69. on 01 Sep 2015 at 11:14 pmJas

    Ray
    Proverbs 8 speaks of a FEMALE NOT A MALE. Do you not understand that the Holy Spirit ( FEMALE) descended upon Jesus and remained. She remained upon him till right before death so he could die and returned to him at resurrection. She at present still remains on him according to Rev 5. This is how a human can live in the present Heaven.
    You can not exalt a man to God just because it seems right to you.

  70. on 02 Sep 2015 at 12:00 amRay

    It seems to me that Jesus is the righteousness of the upright that Proverbs talks about, for that righteousness is by the grace of God.

  71. on 02 Sep 2015 at 8:27 amJas

    Ray
    Why shouldn’t Jesus show some of the attributes of Wisdom after all it descended upon him and remained. Does not the Holy Spirit teach God ways. But do not think that just because Wisdom was there when God created everything that this makes Wisdom equal to God .Even Wisdom was created as all the heavenly beings were and are used by God as his workers and messengers .

  72. on 02 Sep 2015 at 11:03 amTimoteo

    Ray,

    James 1:
    5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

  73. on 02 Sep 2015 at 11:25 amJas

    Ray
    This is the brother of Jesus yet he absolutely does not equate Wisdom and Jesus are the same. Why? because he understood Jesus was bodily given this Wisdom from God when it descended and remained within Him.
    Very similar to the other comforters Jesus promised would come after he left them.

    James 3:17 But the Wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

  74. on 02 Sep 2015 at 12:52 pmJas

    Ray
    If you would like to understand when and why the deception that Jesus was ‘eternal Son of God instead of being adopted at his baptism There is historical evidence in this paper.

    http://jesuswordsonly.com/books/235-hebrew-matthew-baptismal-account.html

  75. on 02 Sep 2015 at 2:11 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    Thanks for the link!

    I just emailed asking about Matt 28:19.

  76. on 02 Sep 2015 at 9:54 pmRay

    Jesus has always been with God. Heaven has always been his home.

  77. on 03 Sep 2015 at 3:11 amTimoteo

    Ray,

    Jesus was conceived and born here on Earth.

    Jesus grew up, matured and carried out his some three year ministry here on planet Earth.

    He was crucified and died here on planet Earth.

    He was resurrected by YAHWEH, his GOD and heavenly father, to be Jesus Christ, here on our planet Earth.

    He is the King of the Jews, taking over the Kingdom of his uber great grandfather, King David and king of the land given by promise to his uber, uber, great grandfather Abraham.

    He is the King of GODs coming Kingdom here on Earth.

    Jesus Christ permanent residence is forever here on planet Earth.

    Jesus has temporally ascended from Earth to Heaven, where he is our advocate and mediator with YAHWEH our GOD and heavenly father.

    Romans 8:
    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    The Devil accuses the Christians when they might sin:

    Revelation 12:
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    1 John 1:
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    1 John:
    2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    1 Timothy 2:
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    There is ONE GOD, YAHWEH.

    NOT three gods, the father, the son, the holy ghost.

    We are men and our mediator with YAHWEH is the man Jesus Christ.

    Ray, Jesus’ hometown is where his Kingdom is, here on planet Earth. He will rule GOD’s kingdom here on planet Earth, when he returns.

    Are you going to be, KINGDOM READY?

    We, who love you, want to help you escape the trinity trap!!!!!

  78. on 03 Sep 2015 at 4:51 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    WOW=URICA

    I just received an email from *Jesus’ words only* about lack of the trinity baptism formula in oldest Matt 28:19 Hebrew text.

    http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/topicindex/633-matthew-28-19-in-original-gospe

  79. on 03 Sep 2015 at 6:23 pmJas

    Timothy
    The oldest Hebrew text is not extant but the Old Latin and the Syriac text are older than the oldest Greek text which they do not have formula .
    However All quotes pre niceene of this verse lacks the formula.
    We have loads of historical evidence that the early church fathers quoted out of the original edition of Matthew which using later hebrew text,greek text and quotes of the church fathers we can reconstruct it.
    Not many are favorable to the reconstruction because they hold to traditions of the Holy Roman church which makes Jesus into a God .
    There are people here that claim the greek text as original and inspired yet much it was unknown to the prenicene church.
    I would almost stake my life that somewhere hidden in the vatican is an extant version of the original Matthew(Hebrew) ,Luke (Syriac), Mark (Latin) and possibly a copy of Memoirs of Apostles that John was created from plus Hebrew, Revelation and James in Hebrew.

  80. on 03 Sep 2015 at 9:38 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    I too believe the RCC has deeply hidden or destroyed writings that contradict their trinity multi gods doctrines.

    Much likened to the present day deleted emails controversy.

    I sent the *Jesus’ words only* link to our friend Wolfgang.

  81. on 04 Sep 2015 at 10:00 amJas

    Timothy
    This site has done some very great research but some of their ideologies are forced from the lack of research especially about Paul and the Law.
    Paul never abolishes any of God’s laws for Israel but does address the interpretations of the Law by the Rabbinical sages,Oral law. The Law never could save unless you were perfect in it and did not need the sacrificial laws for atonement. Even using the sacrifice for atonement required faith that it covered your sins. What Paul does do is key upon mankind being released from the curse of remaining in the grave for eternity caused by Adam’s sin which benefited all mankind. It was not that it was important to teach people that were only going to be saved by Grace but was important for Israel to understand that even gentiles received grace on behalf of Jesus’ perfection just he did not separate the reward of Israel from Grace very well which did not require a person to even know about it or do works to maintain it. Everyone will get the opportunity to be Judged by how they treated God’s creation but first God has to fulfill the promises made that brought about the evolution of the one that removed the curse .
    BTW how is Wolfgang doing?

  82. on 04 Sep 2015 at 12:42 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    Very well taken take in #81.

    It is a disappointment, that no one who gave so much opposition to our heated debate/arguments against Matt 28:19, has commented on the *Jesus’ words only* reveal.

    Wolfgang is insulted that he was band from KR!

    He still maintains his German/English biblical study site:

    editor@biblecenter.de

    His latest endeavor is training service dogs for the elderly and handicapped.

    Wolfgang is probably one of the *most way above average intelligence* individuals who has written here on KR. Certainly a 100 fold sower example.

  83. on 05 Sep 2015 at 10:00 amJas

    Timothy
    The only way they are going to accept this reading is for a Greek MS to be discovered that dates earlier than the ones they consider inspired.

    I think you are a little bias when it comes to Wolfgang but he is a very knowledgeable man. I guess the only issues I had was his methods of just claiming something without presenting evidence or without dealing with clear verses that disproved his claim. Strange thing is he only employs this method on 2 subjects.

  84. on 05 Sep 2015 at 10:24 amRay

    Jesus rules in heaven above. It has been his home even before he made this world. Yes, he will rule on this earth also. All power in heaven and earth has been given to him and we will see him rule in power and authority whether that be here or there. Revelation is a book that shows his authority ruling on earth in the form of many judgments.

  85. on 05 Sep 2015 at 11:01 amJas

    Ray
    Revelation clearly shows Jesus coming into existence from Israel.

    Revelation 12:5
    So the woman gave birth to a son, a male child, who is going to rule over all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was suddenly caught up to God and to his throne,

    Jesus was given the status of firstborn which is the reason he WAS GIVEN RULING POWER OVER ALL NATIONS AND THE ANGELS.

  86. on 05 Sep 2015 at 3:17 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    Perhaps I am equally bias about you as well, all positive though.

    Difference lies only that I have teachers using scriptures with their teachings:

    http://lhim.org/resources/classes.php?id=31

    &

    http://lhim.org/resources/classes.php?id=67

    I do care that many, so too many, will not even consider that there can be forgeries supporting their false doctrines.

    Ray,

    Where/when did all this: “Jesus rules in heaven above. It has been his home even before he made this world……and so forth….” come upon you?

  87. on 05 Sep 2015 at 5:30 pmJas

    Timothy
    If I have caused you to prove and reprove than just thank me but if you have learned anything from our discussions let reason take the credit because you should only be convinced once you prove and reproved.
    Don’t ever put faith in another man’s opinions you are capable of forming your own. All denoms have teachers who use scripture to convince yet we see only opinions prevailing ,30+ thousand . Prove and Reprove always.

  88. on 05 Sep 2015 at 6:26 pmRay

    After reading the scripture for myself and seeing that I was lied to about Jesus never having existed in any form since his conception or birth in/by Mary his mother, I have come to a few logical conclusions.

  89. on 05 Sep 2015 at 6:30 pmRay

    Timoteo,

    Did you ever read the book of Job and find out that somebody other than his 3 friends suddenly shows up, and he has a real identity, and existence, and that he was there all along?

  90. on 05 Sep 2015 at 6:43 pmTimoteo

    Ray,

    Thank you, I do not remember who showed up. Please help me, who was it?

    The one main thing, no two things, I remember.

    His friends were called miserable comforters.

    And, all his children and stuff were restored to him.

    Jas,

    Yes! Thank you.

    And thank you for showing you are running with a better persuasion now.

  91. on 05 Sep 2015 at 6:53 pmRay

    Yes, Elihu was Job’s answer for a daysman, one who might lay hold upon two men in disagreement, for the purpose of reconciliation when there is trouble between them.

    Job 9:33 (KJV)

    Though Elihu had not been mentioned until chapter 32, he had been there all along and had heard every word.

    Jesus told people to search the scriptures for they testified of him. I believe Job is one of those books which does so.

  92. on 05 Sep 2015 at 7:01 pmRay

    Jesus is going to open the books one day, and yes, he had been there all along. Though he wasn’t seen, he was there by the Spirit of God, until the day he came in the flesh in/ through Mary.

    He was in the world and the world was made by him says the scripture.

  93. on 05 Sep 2015 at 8:12 pmJas

    Then Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry. He was angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God.

    Ray
    So now God is Barakel the Buzite, for Elihu was his son

  94. on 05 Sep 2015 at 8:31 pmRay

    Jas,

    That must be how some legalists read the scripture which is likely why they can’t understand how in any way, fashion, form, or figure, that Jesus is indeed God.

  95. on 05 Sep 2015 at 8:31 pmRay

    Some of you here should be teachers but you have need to be taught yourself.

  96. on 05 Sep 2015 at 8:45 pmJas

    “That must be how some legalists read the scripture which is likely why they can’t understand how in any way, fashion, form, or figure, that Jesus is indeed God.”

    Ray
    That is how EVERY translation reads and even ALL MSS of Hebrew,Greek,Latin.
    I now understand how trinitarians get their proof text, they invent it out of thin air

  97. on 05 Sep 2015 at 8:48 pmRay

    It really not so much a problem in how pieces of paper read, but rather how people read.

  98. on 05 Sep 2015 at 8:54 pmRay

    It is a sad thing how some people make too much of the Trinity. Some people make too little of it. It’s a matter of perspective. It’s just a perspective.

    I know of thousands upon thousands of people who received the new birth, received the holy spirit, and spoke in tongues, and it was a marvelous thing. There was no trinity teaching, no new member’s class, no list of tenets, just hours of cassette tapes and a few flip charts.

    But none of us have 100% knowledge. Each of us only knows in part.
    There is always something more to be learned.

  99. on 05 Sep 2015 at 9:02 pmRay

    When the other apostles heard from Peter that the holy spirit was given to the Gentiles, did they ask him if they were taught the Trinity, or had a new member’s class, or were given a list of tenets, or a long list of “essentials”?

    Sometimes I wish it were more like that today.

    I feel no calling of God for me to go out to try take away everyone’s tenets, or essentials, or whatever is different between them and me.

    Yet, I believe there are some things some people don’t yet understand or have not yet received that they really should have gotten by now.

    What are we doing for unity? I believe that is an important question.

    If we are all about building our own little camp, we are not going to be used much by God in building the kingdom of heaven.

  100. on 05 Sep 2015 at 9:10 pmJas

    Ray
    I am speechless,never before has anyone made a claim so bizarre . I have now seen it all. Why stop at searching the scriptures, we can now find Jesus in every story ever told. Noah,Abraham,Isaac,Jacob,Joseph,David,Solomon and all the Prophets were actually Jesus. Where does it end ,heck maybe my neighbor is Jesus.

  101. on 05 Sep 2015 at 9:27 pmRay

    See Romans 1:20.

    All of the works of God have something to tell us about him. Jesus made it all (see John 1 and Col 1) and everything that has life has something to tell us about him. Even the sun and the moon and the stars have something to say about Jesus who is the image of the invisible God. He is the very image of God himself. To see him as he is, is to see the Father also. Both are the Word of God. There is nothing carnal or fallen in Jesus. He is living truth in all purity and knowledge.

    The sun and moon and stars work in unity together. There is nothing in Christ that is in contradiction. He sustains all things and in him all things consist and have their being. He is eternal life, just as God the Father is. To hear from Jesus is to hear the word of God.

    Jesus and the Father together do indeed make one because of their sameness which is really the same. Jesus and God together is one God. Though there is a distinction between the Father and the Son, there are no differences between them, that is, they agree and are one.

    If we know what Jesus being the Son of God is, then we should know these things.

  102. on 05 Sep 2015 at 9:29 pmRay

    Since Jesus is the Word of God, there is something to learn about him everywhere in the scriptures.

  103. on 06 Sep 2015 at 12:35 pmJas

    Ray
    How is it Elihu contradicts God about Job’s Righteousness ,at the beginning of story who accuses Job of not actually being righteous and who was it that was allowed by God to test Job. I would say Satan was using all 4 men as his agents.
    You do understand that equating Elihu with Jesus makes Jesus God’s adversary (satan)

  104. on 06 Sep 2015 at 5:40 pmJas

    Is the trinity just an attempt of satan to bring God down to the status of a created being by equating Him to them. Is this satans last ditch effort to be considered Equal to His Creator. It is obvious that no one understands that Satan can come across as righteous to deceive people into worshipping him instead of the One true God. Could satan be pleased with exalting Jesus to God? Yes but it is not the exalting that pleases him, it is the willfull demoting of God by his children that satan is very very pleased with.

  105. on 06 Sep 2015 at 9:00 pmRay

    No doubt Job was God’s servant. He had a powerful and effective ministry we can read about in chapter 29.

    It was the Lord that started the conversation about Job and he asked Satan his opinion of him. I suppose the Lord may have been quiet about his present spiritual condition, though his reputation as a just man of God had gone on a long time, and he was still known and perceived to be as that. In God’s eyes I suppose Job was still one of his best servants, one whom he likely had been the closest to of many I suppose, one that was still very special in his eyes, and I suppose that can be said about anyone for God loves all of us the same. But there are greats and Job was one of them, one of the greatest.

    As time passes, it’s also possible that men can be taken in by the things of the world that occupy their time and it’s possible that men become comfortable. This can be especially true of those that become rich and have so many things that require their constant attention.

    Let’s look at a verse from Proverbs.

    Proverbs 4:18
    But the path of the just is as a shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

    And then there is a lot of exhortation to keep the Word of God and stay on that path with all diligence.

    So is it possible for a man’s days to begin to get dimmer and dimmer spiritually? If he goes back a bit from the path of life, yes indeed.

    Job says he was not in rest, safety, or quiet, and then trouble came,
    yet Job had the reputation for being one of the greatest men of God.
    I suppose he still was one of the greats at that time.

    The Lord sees clearly every man’s goings but he doesn’t have to reveal them all. He may reveal a part. He might reveal some things of a man but not everything.

    No one but Jesus has been the perfect man, that is, to his standards of perfection, though every man in his best days might touch upon some aspect of the righteousness of God that is in Jesus, who has always been in the world. He’s always been the light of the world, even when he has not been seen.

    There is an e-book I would like to suggest, by Morningstar ministries, called “Overcoming Confusion”, and one of it’s key verses is Proverbs 4:18. It also talks about how the revelation of Christ changes people, and how the Church will be built upon that and how the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

    So what changed Job?

    He got a revelation of the Lord didn’t he?

  106. on 06 Sep 2015 at 9:29 pmRay

    When I read the book of Job once, this question came up: “Would God ever sacrifice his word in order to save souls?” Again, another type or shadow of the gospel.

    It’s a book that has so much to teach, discernment and discretion being some of those things. I trust those things will be given to those who truly seek, ask, and knock.

  107. on 06 Sep 2015 at 9:39 pmJas

    Ray
    Job was perfect and righteous, God was so proud to show him off. Satan was the accuser that Job was only righteous because God built a hedge around, therefore by removing this hedge that Job would sin. So God let Satan take everything from him but Job remained righteous. So again satan accuses Job again states Job wont stay righteous under extreme physical duress but still remains righteous so this time Satan acts more personal in his accusations by using his friends to accuse him and attempt to tempt him into cursing God but still Job stayed righteous. So Satan steps up and speaks directly through Elihu claiming to have attribute of Godliness(typical Satan) then tries harder to get Job to forsake God . God then rebukes all the men.
    Jesus was not even tested to this level but both during their sufferings thought God had forsaken them. Fact is that was Jesus’ Passing statement.
    Job never changed commitment to God just changed his reasoning on what God owed him for his commitment. Job was perfectly in reason under the circumstances and since God allowed these circumstances he took the time to undo the damage and restore the damages.
    I wonder what Satan offerd these men to do his bidding , I do know satan was very angry at them because they failed. Elihu was blameless because Satan just used him to speak through kind of like when an angel used a donkey to speak through.

  108. on 07 Sep 2015 at 5:38 amRay

    Jas, I read the last line and wonder if you for the same reason consider that you yourself will be considered blameless in the day of judgment for the same reason.

    If Elihu was blameless for the reason you say, why didn’t the Lord see Job that way, or his 3 friends?

  109. on 07 Sep 2015 at 5:42 amRay

    Jas,

    Do you really think any man will be able to say to Jesus that he wasn’t tested as they were in this world?

    If Job stayed righteous all the way through this testing, why did he repent? Did he repent of his righteousness, and if so, why?

  110. on 07 Sep 2015 at 9:54 amJas

    If Elihu was blameless for the reason you say, why didn’t the Lord see Job that way, or his 3 friends?”

    Ray
    Elihu was just used by satan as a mouthpiece much like the donkey. The 3 men where doing satans bidding by tempting Job to curse God by trying to convince Job he had sinned somehow. Satan uses trickery very well.

    42:7 After the Lord had spoken these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My anger is stirred up against you and your two friends, because you have not spoken about me what is right, as my servant Job has.

    According to God ,Job had no reason to repent

    Ray I will be judged accordingly taking into account that God allowed Satan to deceive mankind

  111. on 07 Sep 2015 at 10:57 amJas

    13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

    Ray
    I am sure Paul had the trial of Job in mind when he wrote this.

  112. on 07 Sep 2015 at 11:39 amRay

    Jas,

    If Job had no reason to repent before God as you say, why did God accept his repentance?

    When you appear before God and he wants your repentance, what do you think you should do?

  113. on 07 Sep 2015 at 12:01 pmRay

    People sometimes type scripture but they don’t hear it, and I wonder who taught them that they should believe or confess as they do, and what was their end, what was the fruit of their lives?

  114. on 07 Sep 2015 at 12:09 pmJas

    Ray
    Job could repent for many reasons. You are confusing confessing sin with admitting a better understanding.
    Anyway it was God who stated “because you have not spoken about me what is right, as my servant Job has” which defines everything that Job spoke as justified. Are you willing to question God’s clear statement because you do not understand what Job repented?

  115. on 07 Sep 2015 at 12:28 pmJas

    When you appear before God and he wants your repentance, what do you think you should do?

    Ray at judgment when the truth is revealed to me I am sure I will have a multitude to ask for forgiveness for.. As for repenting I think it would be a little late.
    You have allowed satan to convict Job by presenting false witness against him. You also see satan as an angel of light and justified to contradict God when he states Job was Righteous.
    What do we know about satan ? He was a liar,an accuser ,a deceiver and a disguiser of righteousness which even today has people deceived about who he was in this story. You actually see him as a minister of righteousness in Elihu

  116. on 07 Sep 2015 at 1:23 pmRay

    Elihu needed not to repent before God. He was moved by the spirit of God, the spirit of wisdom that is in Christ Jesus to speak up as he did.
    The Spirit of God moved him in a positive way. He showed him clearly that Job had been striving against God, resisting his will, choosing service to self more than service to God, choosing to argue against him, going back from the things of God. He told him of the goodness of God, how he deals with those that are against him, making the way of transgression hard, while the way of righteousness is one of prosperity and peace with God, being a joy to be in service to him. This is something Job had once experienced and I expect he needed to be built up in, at this time again. He gave him a message of God’s graciousness to mankind. (see 33:23 and following)

    Job didn’t have to go to the end that he did, having to answer in the presence of the Lord, manifest as he revealed himself to Job from the whirlwind. (see 36:16)

    He also warned him of the consequences of refusing the grace of God offered him.(36:18)

    Remembering God and his greatness helps us make the right choices in life. The acts of his greatness and kindness toward us is seen throughout the creation. (see Rom 1:19,20)

  117. on 07 Sep 2015 at 1:47 pmRay

    Job’s repentance was of God, and it was right.

  118. on 07 Sep 2015 at 2:03 pmJas

    Ray
    Like I said you see satan as an angel of light yet he flat out contradicts God and then bears false witness against Job.

    (a) Elihu expressly rejects Job’s blamelessness: his cleanliness and purity.

    “You say, ‘I am clean, without transgression; I am pure, and there is no iniquity in me. Look, he finds occasions against me, he counts me as his enemy; he puts my feet in the stocks, and watches all my paths.’ “But in this you are not right. I will answer you: God is greater than any mortal. Why do you contend against him, saying, ‘He will answer none of my words’?” (Job 33:9-13 Italics added for emphasis)

    Elihu clearly has Job’s moral cleanliness and moral purity in mind as the companion phrases “without transgression” and “no iniquity” confirm. Elihu claims Job is in fact a man of iniquity, a sinner. His sin is his claim that God is the author of evil. God treats or “counts” him as his “enemy.” (Job 33:10) He predicts God will not answer any of the words of such a sinner. (Job 33:13) God will soon prove Elihu a false prophet on both points.

    (b) A short time later, Elihu unwittingly adopts a position that Satan himself has presented in the first scene in heaven.

    “Let us choose what is right; let us determine among ourselves what is good. For Job has said, ‘I am innocent, and God has taken away my right; in spite of being right I am counted a liar; my wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.’ Who is there like Job, who drinks up scoffing like water, who goes in company with evildoers and walks with the wicked? For he has said, ‘It profits one nothing to take delight in God.’ “Therefore, hear me, you who have sense, far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. For according to their deeds he will repay them, and according to their ways he will make it befall them. Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”(Job 34:5-12 Italics added for emphasis)

    Elihu cannot conceive of a selfless love for God free from selfishness. That was Satan’s position. And Elihu is quick to pass judgment on Job for saying so. It would be an act of wicked and injustice for God not to reward the righteous. Through those words, Elihu has unwittingly condemned God.

    (c) And a short time after that, Elihu describes Job as a wicked fool, deserving more evil than that which he has already suffered.

    “Job speaks without knowledge, his words are without insight.’ Would that Job were tried to the limit, because his answers are those of the wicked. For he adds rebellion to his sin; he claps his hands among us, and multiplies his words against God.” (Job 34:35-37)

    You state Jesus and God are one in unity because they agree but then present an appearance of Jesus that is not in agreement. Job asks for a mediator but got a prosecuting attorney full of accusations and false witness. If Job was guilty he also would have to offer a sacrifice and God would not said Job was justified in his words.

    This discussion shows just how powerful of a deception it is when satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

  119. on 07 Sep 2015 at 3:52 pmRay

    Job indeed needed repentance and God accepted him after his repentance. It happened just as Elihu predicted and told him of concerning the good news of that day, that his flesh would be fresher than a child’s. (see chapter 33)

    If Job would have continued to rebel against God this would not have happened. He would not have become enlightened with the light of the living, nor would he have received the healing of his flesh. His fate would have been deadly, a great ransom not even being able to deliver him.

  120. on 07 Sep 2015 at 4:16 pmJas

    Ray
    Job was righteous before and was established in every word he spoke.
    You are reading accusations not what Job had actually said. All you see is the claim of satan that he speaks for God yet God never said any such thing. If satan could have deceived Job into thinking he had sinned and God was punishing him for wickedness then maybe Job would curse God proven that God was wrong about Job. Try actually reading what Job actually said instead of the false witness provided by satan.

  121. on 07 Sep 2015 at 4:38 pmRay

    Jas, Here as some things Job actually said:

    “Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat! I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments. I would know the words which he would answer me, and understand what he would say unto me….”

    And he goes on in his pride and self righteousness, saying that his righteousness is more than God’s, which is ridiculous. (see Chp 23)

    Did it happen as Job imagined? Did he order his case against God and fill his mouth with righteous arguments? Did he know the words which God then answered him, and understand what he said?

    This whole thing doesn’t make any sense. He’s completely self confident that he’s right and that God is wrong in his dealings with him and then seems to believe that God and he would come to the same understanding, as if God would know not Job’s sin, but rather some fault that was God’s or something.

    This whole thing is nonsense!, and it gets worse. He talks about how God is cruel to him and for not any sin on his part. He even talks about how he wishes that he who he is against would write a book about him and he would wear it as if it were a personal crown for him to rejoice in, which is insanity!

    Yes, God did write a book about Job and we are reading it, and it did not become a crown of rejoicing to him, until he repented of this nonsense!

    Have you never read this book?

  122. on 07 Sep 2015 at 5:05 pmJas

    Ray
    Job was not subjected to any of this because he has done wrong,he was subjected to it because he was righteous. In act God threw Job under the bus to prove that Job would not turn away from him. Under the circumstances what conclusion can Job arrive at. Fact is God said Job was established in every word he spoke . Why because subjected to a test because God wanted to prove to satan how great Job was.
    Jesus did not even go through a portion of this kind of suffering and his last words were My God,My God why have you forsaken me!!!!!.
    Yes Job Thought God had forsaken him but still never curses God.
    Did Job repent of thinking God had forsaken him but for a moment God did just that.

  123. on 07 Sep 2015 at 5:15 pmRay

    God approved of Job’s repentance for it was the thing that was right, something his friends needed also. It’s one thing to talk about God but then miss every opportunity to address those things that need to be addressed for someone’s healing or correction. It’s not talking about God that makes one right with God, it’s doing his good and perfect will, and doing it in proper ministry to others according to his leading.

    Job talked a lot as if he really knew God, but when he saw something of his power and heard him from the whirlwind, he then saw his own miserable condition which he then was genuinely ashamed of. He didn’t straighten God out. God began to straighten him out.

    How many of us think we know Jesus, or think we are ready for his kingdom, but are really going to get a revelation of him, and are then going to truly hate our life? Many I hope, because I begin to see the corruption of their miserable spiritual condition.

    Looking back on my life, I really despise it. The Lord let me know that I’m going to hate it so much the more.

  124. on 07 Sep 2015 at 5:27 pmJas

    Ray
    If Job would have sinned then God would have instructed him to offer a sacrifice for that sin. God plainly states Job was right (established) in his words. Job was not self righteous he was confident in the words that taught him what was righteous and God agrees 3 times that Job was righteous. Satan claims Job is not righteous which you agree in unity

  125. on 07 Sep 2015 at 5:33 pmRay

    Job 23:4…..fill my mouth with arguments.

    Jas,

    Take out a blank piece of paper and write out all of Job’s words which he argues with the Lord after he talks to him from the whirlwind. Go ahead. Write it all out and then share them with us please.

    And if by chance, the paper is blank, then know for sure that what Job said here is nonsense. It just wasn’t true.

    There’s a lot more than just that.

  126. on 07 Sep 2015 at 5:40 pmRay

    How many people today have a wrong perception of God? That is, how many of us do you think that should we have a meeting with God, that we would find out that he’s exactly like we thought he was, that we found out nothing new at all?

    How many of us right now, would not be changed in the slightest bit should we have a meeting with the Lord right now?

    Should we really believe that, or have we learned nothing from the book of Job?

    Was Job kingdom ready?

  127. on 07 Sep 2015 at 6:46 pmJas

    Ray
    Job never claimed any of that but fell prey to one who has.
    Only thing Job needed to repent was thinking God had changed by this one act but God allowed it which was unlike God which is the words Job was right about.
    God stated Job was righteous, God stated Job was established in his words, God did not instruct Job to offer a sacrifice for sin whatsoever.

  128. on 07 Sep 2015 at 8:34 pmJas

    Ray
    God shows Job who it was that darkened council .God then equates satan with the Leviathan then truly identifies in the last verse on it
    “He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud.””
    God is stating his supremacy over satan undoing the damage done by satan when he deceived Job into pride in his righteousness by stating false statement about Job which he was forced to defend the only a man can defend his actions of righeousness.
    If God would not have come when he did and cause satan to flee the seen he very well might have deceived Job into claiming he was more righteous than God. Wow satan is a sly one

  129. on 07 Sep 2015 at 9:50 pmRay

    The Lord showed Job who it was that darkened his council by words without knowledge, and Job came into agreement that yes, indeed it was Job himself. Therefore through this repentance, reconciliation begins between Job and the Lord. Job obeys the instruction given and the Lord accepts his intercession for his friends, for it was according to the will of God.

    Instead of having Leviathan as his king, Job now has the Lord as his king. Instead of being under behemoth, Job is now in the loving care of his Lord in a way of understanding and peace. The darkness is past and the light now shines for Job, and Job is blessed.

  130. on 08 Sep 2015 at 9:38 amJas

    Maybe the story of Job was given as a test to Israel to see if they would call God a liar when he says Job was perfect and righteous. How could God make that claim if Job actually walked with the wicked as he was accused of. How could Job be self righteous when God would only call somebody righteous by following HIS WAYS. Self righteousness is you establishing the means to be judged by like the Pharisees did.
    Calling God a liar was the first act of Satan in this story.

  131. on 08 Sep 2015 at 7:07 pmRay

    I take it that the Lord asks Satan a question about Job, and a question isn’t a statement. It is merely a question. There is a difference between a period and a question mark. They serve different purposes.

    Why might God do that? To answer that question we should ask ourselves what the purpose of the book of Job might be. It has a lot to teach.

    Does it teach humility?
    How about discernment?
    How about being sensitive to the still small voice of the holy spirit when we read?
    How about teaching the fear of God?
    Does it teach us that his ways are higher than our ways?
    Does it teach us that there are differences between he and us?
    Does it teach patience? (If so, why then should we act impatiently?)
    How about temperance?
    How about learning true ministry?
    How about not jumping to conclusions so quickly?
    It has a lot to teach us.
    Also, do people sometimes change over time? Does time change some things?
    How about God’s priorities? Does God ever overlook some things and deal with something else instead?

  132. on 08 Sep 2015 at 7:17 pmRay

    And how about not being too quick to judge….and for that matter, not being too slow either.

  133. on 08 Sep 2015 at 8:03 pmJas

    NET ©
    So the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered 1 my servant Job? There 2 is no one like him on the earth, a pure and upright man, one who fears God and turns away 3 from evil.”
    NIV ©
    Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no-one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
    NASB ©
    The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”
    NRSV ©
    The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil.”

    Are you claim God was asking Satan” there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil RIGHT.”

    Is that how you justify calling God a liar?

  134. on 08 Sep 2015 at 10:03 pmRay

    Jas,

    I suppose a lot depends on which version of the Bible one reads. Here is a verse from the 1599 Geneva:

    Job 1:8
    And the Lord said unto Satan, Has thou not considered my servant Job, how none is like him in the earth? an upright and just man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

    From the way this verse is written what can I know for certain?

    1. that Job is the Lord’s servant.
    2.

    That’s about as far as I get. The rest seems to be in the form of questions.

    And I don’t see the word perfect, which I believe shows up in the KJV.

    It seems to me that even the most God fearing, upright, and just man, who hates all forms of evil, could make a few recent mistakes in life, but still he could be one of God’s best. He sure could be.

  135. on 08 Sep 2015 at 10:08 pmRay

    And another thing this book might teach us, is that with the measure we meet, we might be judged.

  136. on 08 Sep 2015 at 10:24 pmJas

    NASB ©
    There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

    No Ray it do not depend upon version considering verse 1 STATES IT.

    “It seems to me that even the most God fearing, upright, and just man, who hates all forms of evil, could make a few recent mistakes in life, but still he could be one of God’s best. He sure could be.”

    Ray the whole story centers around the state of Job when he was stricken with loosing everything and disease . Everything is about why these things happened to Job. His 3 friends and Elihu claim it was because he sinned and walked with wicked men.
    We know the state of Job before which God declared it3 times and we know Job was established in every word he spoke because again God declared it. Why did the 4 men claim all this happened to Job because he was a sinner worthy of the punishment because he walked with wicked men. If this was the state of Job before why didn’t God just state that.
    Again you tried to explain away God’s statement thinking you were clever but in ignorance of the very first verse in the story.
    Find some other verse to justify calling God a liar this one was a poor attempt.

  137. on 09 Sep 2015 at 6:59 pmRay

    It’s only people who seek the knowledge of God that can be helped.
    Some will read the book and get nothing from it.

  138. on 09 Sep 2015 at 7:04 pmRay

    Some will loose what little they once had of the Word and it will be given to someone else.

  139. on 09 Sep 2015 at 7:35 pmJas

    The knowledge of God come from reading the whole bible in truth. Not by adding false context or by trying explain away very very clear verses. Everyone today has access to the Word and the resources to prove and reprove the best context.
    Nobody is going to loose the Word nor be given to someone else.Where do you come up with this folly.
    You can only make it unrecognizable by trying to explain it away because it testifies against you.

  140. on 09 Sep 2015 at 10:10 pmRay

    I suppose some people will prob’ly read the book of Job as nearly 30 chapters of arguing and self righteousness, and that’s about all they will ever get out of it and will likely live their lives that way, thinking that’s the right way.

  141. on 09 Sep 2015 at 10:23 pmJas

    Ray
    I guess some will justify bearing false witness and calling God a liar out of reading nearly 30 chapters along with their self righteousness that exceeds God’s righteousness because they reduced God to a lying sinner.

  142. on 10 Sep 2015 at 6:22 pmRay

    Jas,

    Are you ready to be judged by the measure you meet out?

  143. on 10 Sep 2015 at 7:28 pmJas

    Ray
    Should anyone be judged by any other measure?
    How about you?

  144. on 10 Sep 2015 at 10:15 pmRay

    Jas,

    Are you ready?

  145. on 10 Sep 2015 at 10:35 pmJas

    Ray
    I am certainly ready along with every man,woman and child that ever lived thanking God for giving Grace from never being raised for Judgment . God will judge me accordingly by how I treated all of his creation.
    Do you think you are beyond Judgment, do you think you are righteous??

  146. on 11 Sep 2015 at 1:09 amRay

    Jas,

    I am one of the greatest sinners who lived his life for himself and was the cause of the greatest harm to many, yet God in his mercy has worked his work of grace to deliver me from such darkness, and I trust he will continue to deliver me. For the darkness is always about seeking to destroy the work and righteousness of God. It’s going about to confuse, cloud, and cover up his light, working to cause the stumbling of many who seek his righteousness and the things of glory, honor, and truth. I trust that God will take vengeance upon all such.

  147. on 11 Sep 2015 at 3:21 amRay

    Some people talk about hyper grace. How might a hyper grace teacher handle the book of Job? Where did hyper grace get it’s roots into the Church? What fruit does hyper grace produce?

    If we don’t like the term hyper grace, maybe we could talk about twisted thinking concerning grace, how people’s understanding of grace might get perverted, or maybe call it unsanctified mercy, or maybe some other term.

  148. on 11 Sep 2015 at 9:28 amJas

    Ray
    If you have a conscience that guides you I am certain you will be judged worthy. God will take into account he allowed satan to deceive you. Even though I have shed some of the deception it will not profit me at the Great White Throne Judgment . I will be judged by how I treated All of God’s creation. Those people who have suppressed their conscience will not fair well at this judgment . People here are seeking the truth and sharing what they have learned. Sometimes they have to defend the truth they have exposed from people who purposely come here to muddy the water with unscriptual claims.
    The question you should ask yourself is why do you come to this site when you do not believe what ths site stands for . Is it to just argue, muddy the water because it certainly not to read and learn. The only reason people converse with you is because they care and some of your post scream out please help me.

  149. on 11 Sep 2015 at 6:05 pmRay

    Sometimes in order to see the Lord more clearly we find that looking at some scriptures which testify something about him, can help us out quite a bit.

    I’ve looked just a bit about comparing Elihu to the Lord, and think it also might be helpful to see how he compares to the Pharisees of Jesus’ day.

    The Pharisees were known to be of the sort that would always be looking for faults in others, especially in those who were considered to be teachers as they were. These were always small things they brought up to Jesus about his ministry, things of no importance spiritually, for Jesus did not commit any sin.

    Was Elihu guilty of bringing up any insignificant thing that Job might have said or did? Nothing that I can tell. The things he brought up did have importance as far as fellowship with the Lord goes. There were some glaring things that were beginning to show up with Job, things his 3 friends either didn’t see or thought them of no importance to address, and for this reason Ehihu’s anger began to show, for they were condemning him but without real reason, without anything that could be actually seen as happening in the present.

    Our present condition is often something of importance to God, and some of the things of him are often seen to be unimportant to men.

    I remember a man once bringing up how Elihu was so eager to speak, but what I noticed is how refrained from speaking he had been. He even said he was, and what he said, he also did.

    Jesus once told the people that if they did not believe him for who he said he was, they should believe him for his works sake, for his works testified that he was of God. All of the miracles and the good things he preached can only come from one who has enjoined himself with the Almighty.

    Was Elihu preaching anything good? Yes, he had very much good to say, things of importance to relationship with Almighty God.

    A man walking by the spirit of God will often show the fruit of the spirit. This is normal Christian living. Patience is a virtue that is akin to temperance which is a fruit of the spirit. Longsuffering is patience, and that too is a fruit of the spirit. (see Gal 5:22,23)

    Yes, Elihu had waited, for he expected wisdom to be with the aged. No doubt he was there to learn from them, as well as minister if the need and opportunity arose. Yes, he was a younger and upcoming minister. He brought a message of grace to Job. (see Job 24-32) It was even a message of justification. (see Job 33:32 in the KJV)

    Is it even fair to paint Elihu as a Pharisee?

    Did he heap any heavy burdens upon Job? He did say that his hand would not be heavy upon him. (see Job 33:7) He came to him as one who also had the knowledge of God, and was there as a help to job, as a minister of reconciliation.

  150. on 11 Sep 2015 at 6:43 pmRay

    Col 1:17
    …and in him all things consist.

    In considering the Lord as the maintainer of everything that has life, how important is it to maintain our relationship to him who does indeed maintain us?

    Suppose we have a skin disease, or a cancer, or whatever?

    The thing that may need the immediate attention at times is our relationship, or condition of fellowship with God. Have we been maintaining it in a healthy way, or have we let it go towards chaos?

    How important might what we do toward another be for healing for example?

  151. on 11 Sep 2015 at 6:43 pmJas

    Ray
    Elihu claimed that God was punishing Job for walking with the wicked.
    The whole story is about Blameless,Righteous Man which God allowed Satan to test in 2 ways only. None of this test came about because Job had done wrong, God said Job was righteous and blameless before the test started ,said Job was righteous after the first test and we know from the story Job remained Righteous after the second test. These two test are all God authorized satan to do. Satan then proceeded to use these three men to accuse Job of being wicked and that was the reason for the punishment. We know from the first of the story that Job was righteous in the eye of God so these three men were liars and failed to accomplish what satan wanted. This is where Satan possesses Elihu to try to trick Job into cursing God or commit a sin. Job states correctly that it was an injustice to not even have an advocated or to know what the charge was. Job was established in his word according to God because there was no charge that brought about both test and absolutely no justice which if there was a charge than seeing God was a Just there would have been justice
    Ray you can continue to call God a liar when He Said three times Job was blameless and Righteous so you can have Jesus as Elihu instead of satan as Elihu.

  152. on 11 Sep 2015 at 6:47 pmRay

    I couldn’t help but think about how Adam was given the work of maintaining the garden, and not getting a dirk bike to tear it all up.
    (I’ve nothing against dirt bikes personally, I’ve enjoyed riding them for years. I’m just saying…)

    We ought to seek ways to help maintain one another in the love of Christ.

  153. on 11 Sep 2015 at 6:55 pmRay

    I just heard something about the second law of thermodynamics which is a law, a proven law, saying that unless something is acted upon by an outside source, everything will go toward disorder and chaos. This has been a proven fact by science.

    Job, though this testing tended to increase in his pride, self righteousness, and hostility in his attitude toward God. This is evident by his words he was speaking. This is something that progressed with time. It finally reached a point where Elihu was awakened to the seriousness of it, by the spirit within him, which moved him. It was from something deep within his belly. He describes himself as being like a wineskin that was stretched being filled to fullness. This was the spirit of God at work within him to will and to do of God’s good pleasure, and God used him to minister to Job.

  154. on 11 Sep 2015 at 7:25 pmJas

    Ray
    God bless and good luck with your with your argument. I have shown you everything needed to shed your deception

  155. on 11 Sep 2015 at 8:26 pmRay

    Here’s an interesting verse that shows where Job was at after he had ended his words, and even after Elihu spoke to him, to prepare him for this meeting with the Lord:

    Job 40:8
    Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

    This is the attitude that Job needed cleansing of, for it came about through his words which he had been speaking, which as we know proceed from the thoughts and imaginations of the heart.

  156. on 11 Sep 2015 at 8:42 pmJas

    Ray I know I said good luck but can not sit back while someone calls God a liar
    Job just went one on one with satan,so a few questions to see if Job maintained his fear of God was a needed test.
    Truth is this was God showing his supremacy to satan, kind of stupid to think Job thought he could do these things but on the other hand this is exactly what satan sought since his rebellion

  157. on 11 Sep 2015 at 9:08 pmRay

    God so often was reminding Job that man can not do anything in comparison to God. Birds take flight at God’s command, not by man’s command.

    This means that we need God, not the other way around. Sometimes men need to be reminded of this basic fact. We can not exist without God, yet he will exist and keep all of his creation going on, very well without our help. He will sustain in by his power and might, and wisdom and knowledge. In fact we can do nothing. We are completely dependent upon his favor and grace.

    But suppose men could command everything in God’s creation. If they could I suppose they might get to thinking that they don’t need God, that they could do as well without him, and if that were the case, they might be tempted to condemn God that they might be righteous……. in their own eyes anyway.

    Here is the testimony of the written Word of God concerning Job:

    Job 32:1
    So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

    It’s this self righteousness that the Lord began dealing with in his meeting with Job.

  158. on 11 Sep 2015 at 9:45 pmJas

    Ray
    A person DECLARED by God as righteous can not have obtained righteousness by their own measure. Can they be confident of the Word of God which is what God JUDGED Job by .
    Again you are calling God a liar and siding with the accuser satan

  159. on 11 Sep 2015 at 9:56 pmJas

    Job 32:1
    So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

    Ray lets see if you will accuse God of lying in another verse.

    After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken what is right(established), as my servant Job has.

    Are you going to believe these lying men according to God or believe God

  160. on 11 Sep 2015 at 10:53 pmRay

    Jas,

    It was Job’s repentance that was right in God’s eyes, and he sees correctly at all times. Job’s 3 friends had not repented of their folly as of yet. They had been condemning Job without finding his real errors.
    His hostility toward God began to glare brightly, but they did not address it. They only kept heaping condemnation on him for a variety of other reasons, and this is not true ministry. I trust it was an abomination of justice in God’s sight. Yes, they needed forgiveness. Such mistreatment never helps a man. It’s abusive.

    Job had nothing at all to forgive Elihu for, for he did nothing wrong to Job at all.

    I began reading a bit about Practicing the Presence of God. The writer talks about how necessary the practice of this is to the spiritual life, of how important it is to speak humbly to the creator in his divine company. He had never left Job. He was there with him all the time, hearing every word he said, and knowing the condition of his heart at all times. Conversing lovingly to God is of utmost importance, even in the midst of trouble, temptation, suffering, mistreatment by others, especially in times of being tired, exhausted, perplexed, confused, dismayed, in times of bad health, while in pain, when weak, when injured, when in perils, even infidelity and sin.

    It’s a good book to read, and so also is the book of Job. It’s so rich in wisdom and instruction, speaking many things to the heart of man about the heart of man’s basic problems.

    Job was changed by meeting the Lord in the whirlwind. As he says, it was one thing to hear by the hearing of the ear, and another thing to see.

    It’s about God’s amazing grace.

  161. on 11 Sep 2015 at 11:05 pmJas

    Actually the word translated as right is truth in the Greek so no it was not about repenting. It flat out said they were liars. You forget the bible you read is only a late translation. But I will bet you will still choose to call God a liar .

  162. on 12 Sep 2015 at 12:01 amJas

    Actually the hebrew of Job 42:6 literally reads” Therefore I reject comfort in dust and ashes”
    Translator chose to make it read as repenting

  163. on 12 Sep 2015 at 12:16 amJas

    Job many times just ask to die in his prayers ,Job 42:6 is just stating he now rejects the comfort of dying.

  164. on 12 Sep 2015 at 8:25 amRay

    The truth is that Job’s repentance was of God and was the truth about Job.

  165. on 12 Sep 2015 at 8:30 amRay

    Here it is in the 1599 Geneva:

    Job 39:37:
    Behold, I am vile: what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

    Then there is a footnote on this verse that says we know by this that he repented and wanted pardon for his sins.

    Here we find Job walking in the truth, and the Lord about to pardon him for all his sins.

  166. on 12 Sep 2015 at 8:36 amRay

    We used to sing, “..the vilest offender who truly believes, that moment a pardon from Jesus receives.”

    As concerning who Jesus is, yes, a prophet, but more than a prophet, yes, a son of God, but more than a son of God, The Son of God, and one day we will all know much more about what that is all about.

    And what if every time “God” was seen or manifest to men, throughout all of history, he was always seen or made known by the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Now that might not fit some people’s paradigm, but it certainly may be true.

    Job may have been in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ himself at the time of his repentance.

  167. on 12 Sep 2015 at 11:20 pmJas

    There is not a word in Job 42:6 that means repent in the hebrew or greek

    Ray
    Job 40:4 in the literal hebrew states “Behold ( I am) cursed ,how (can I) respond, hand placed over mouth”
    Greek says” some still judge me admonished and rebuked,lord hear no such existing in me but some answer to this hand placed upon my mouth.

    Ray I want to thank you for causing me to prove and reprove. I can now see Satan has corrupted most if not all of english translations .
    I should not be shocked because most followed satan’s trinity.
    The deeper I am caused to dig the more proof there is.

    Keep trying to find a way to make God a liar!

  168. on 13 Sep 2015 at 9:41 amRay

    Jas,

    You don’t need to find a specific Greek word that defines repentance when you see repentance.

    When you repent to God, do you do so with a specific Greek word that defines repentance?

    Do you believe that God is looking for us to use a specific Greek word meaning repentance before he recognizes our repentance?

    If you are right on this matter, here is your chance to re-prove it to me since I didn’t get this the first time.

    No, Job’s repentance was real and the Lord accepted it. It was of him and was something that was right.

  169. on 13 Sep 2015 at 10:09 amRay

    Jas,

    If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and if we say that we have not sinned, we make God a liar. (see I John I)

    Were you led this way by someone from what some call a hyper grace camp? They are those who tend to never see any sin of their own and say they believe in grace. They often talk about it, but they don’t really live and walk in the grace of God as they ought to. For them, it’s not really a saving grace that saves them from their sins, for they are still held captive by them. It’s as if they had not seen the cross at the beginning of their journey, or as if they thought it to be too much of a burden to bring it with them, and went on ahead without it.

  170. on 13 Sep 2015 at 10:42 amJas

    Ray
    I showed you the actual words used which none meant repent, showed you no word was in other verse for vile. In both verses the context was not repentance . God said Job was perfect and righteous so this can not be the reason for allowing satan to test Job as the 4 men led by satan provided false witness of. God said after that the men did not speak what was truthful like Job did.
    It is amazing how hard a trinitarian will work to make the 1 God a liar but will use a possession by satan as proof the son existed before his generation

  171. on 13 Sep 2015 at 11:34 amJas

    Chapters 32 to 37 of the book of Job contain Elihu’s discourse. From 32:6 all the way to 33:7 Elihu says: a) why did he did not want to speak before; b) why did he feel like speaking now; c) how was he a righteous and wise man (33:3 and 33); d) how had the discourses of the three men defrauded him, etc., etc.. Nothing really specific.

    After that he begins to “evangelize” to Job (33:8) as if the latter did not know who God was and what was his way of being and behaving. In 32:13 he says something that is not true, in affirming that God cast Job way, like saying that God had discarded him. On the contrary, during this entire process God had such trust in Job, like that for a perfect man, righteous, and fearful of God and separated from evil, that he had no doubt in submitting him to that entire process, certain that Job would not betray his trust, but would serve Him to teach Satan a lesson by putting him to shame. In fact, even after facing frightening misfortunes that seemed to have originated from God, without a reason, even so, Job remained faithful to God. Therefore God did not cast off or discard Job, like Elihu said, but honored him submitting him to the greatest test of loyalty that can be put on a human being.

    “Lest ye should say: We have found out wisdom, God thrusteth him down, not man.” (Job 32:13)
    Also Elihu argues in 33:8-10, by criticizing Job, that he said he was pure, innocent, and without flaw or evil. First of all, Job did not say that he had always been that way, recognizing that he had sinned in his youth, like we see in 13:26. Therefore, Job did not claim to be pure, innocent and without flaw, he confessed to having them; but that he did not have them now. If he did not have them now he would not have a reason why to “confess” falsely and hypocritically that he did have sins, in this way exhibiting a forged humility and modesty.

    But the case is, that Job not only told the truth in the matter of his actual pure life, it is that the one who gives testimony of his purity and wholesomeness is God himself when he tells Satan the following in Job 1:8

    “For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.” (Job 13:26)

    “And the LORD said unto Satan: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the Earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?” (Job 1:8)
    Therefore Job’s words did not reflect vanity or conceit, but a truth that was reinforced by God. Job did not understand why so many frightening misfortunes if he had not sinned since his youth. What did Elihu and the three friends want? For Job, without feeling it, without believing it and full of hypocrisy and false humility, to lie saying that he had sinned a great deal recently? Many do the same thing nowadays, they try to see sin in Job just for the fact that he honestly confessed that he had no sin.

    In 34:7-9, Elihu slanders Job as his three friends did before, saying that he committed sins and did things that were not true that Job had done. All of that was what Elihu imagined Job must have been doing, being that horrible things were occurring.

    “7 What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water? 8 Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men. 9 For he hath said, it profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God.” (Job 34:7-9)
    At no time did Job say that man did not gain anything by doing God’s will; that was a falsehood by Elihu. Next Elihu proceeds in his discourse detailing and defending obvious things which no one had denied or argued, like the justice and power of God, and the end of perverse beings. This of defending points that no one has denied or attacked is typical of someone who has no greater proof to endorse his affirmations. It is very common in discussions, to see how one of the constituents, who cannot prove his point or destroy the contrary, throws himself with ferocity to defend what his constituent has not attacked nor questioned, to appear that he is defending something, or proving his thesis. In 34:37 Elihu accuses Job of sin and impiety, accusations which were all false.

    “For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth [his hands] among us, and multiplieth his words against God” (Job 34:37)
    I say that those accusations were false because it is God himself, who justifies Job in 2:3, even after suffering the misfortunes described here, and later, and at the end of the book, when He again justifies Job.

    “And the LORD said unto Satan: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the Earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (Job 2:3)

    “…that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.” (Job 42:8)
    In 35:2 Elihu accuses Job of saying that he is more just than God, which is false. What job always said was that he did not deserve what was happening to him, because his conscience was clean, and that he did not understand why this was happening. That was true. What else could a man say submitted to such terrible circumstances? In fact he began to believe that God was punishing him for the sins of his youth (13:26) and many times asked for clemency. Where is it written that Job had said he was more just than God?

    “Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou sadist: My righteousness is more than God’s?”
    Among Job’s detractors, however, there would not have been one worthy of being chosen by God as a model to humiliate Satan, or to be mentioned as a model of perfection, together with Noah, Daniel and Moses in Ezq 14:14 and 20.

    “Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.” (Ezq 14:14)
    In Job 36:17-21 Elihu once again slanders Job. In verse 17 he accuses him of unjust and ungodly, and in 21 he accuses him that he prefers injustice, accusations which were contrary to what we have already seen was the opinion God had of Job.

    “17 But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked, judgment and justice take hold on thee. 18 Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee. 19 Will he esteem thy riches? no, not gold, nor all the forces of strength. 20 Desire not the night, when people are cut off in their place. 21 Take heed, regard not iniquity, for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction.” (Job 36:17-21)
    In conclusion, neither Zophar nor Bildad nor Eliphaz nor Elihu said anything that could help Job understand what was happening to him, or that would console him. They only occupied themselves in slandering and harassing him.

    When in chapter 38 God responds to Job, he doesn’t accuse him of evil, but makes him see that he could not have the wisdom he needed to understand what was occurring, because that wisdom was only in God. Then God shows Job all of the things he did not know, so that he could comprehend that humans cannot understand all, but he never blames him of sin, but for being faithful throughout this entire horrible trial, for having served in helping him humiliate Satan, God returns his prior joy and multiplies his possessions.

    The proof of the great concept God always had over Job and continued having, is that many centuries after these happenings God still remembered him and used him as a model, as an example of a person He would listen to above all others.

    There are some who believe that God disapproved of Job and his discourse, but that is not true. In the following passage we can see the approval of God of both things: for Job’s person and for what Job said. Let us see.

    “7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. 8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for him will I accept; lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.” (Job 42:7-8)
    The only God reproached Job for was having based his reasoning, on his limited knowledge, without taking into account that there could be other reasons that he ignored, why everything that he was suffering through was occurring. Precisely, Job ignored that God was using everything that was happening to him to humiliate Satan, demonstrating to him that Job was better than him even though he was an inferior being, and even though he was suffering pains that he believed were caused by God, without having done anything that could deserve such horrible punishment. Job was right, that was not something that he deserved, but it was something that God had wanted to place on him for eternal humiliation for Satan and eternal glory for Job.

  172. on 13 Sep 2015 at 1:10 pmRay

    I thank God that Job repented of his sin and thereby was healed and delivered from Satan’s hand. This also proved to be the means whereby he was promoted over his 3 friends.

    The holy scripture testified that he was righteous in his own eyes, but such self righteousness is never something from God. It’s of the flesh, the fallen nature of man. I thank God he was delivered out of it during his meeting with the Lord.

  173. on 13 Sep 2015 at 1:27 pmRay

    Jas,

    How long have you been a preacher of self righteousness?

  174. on 13 Sep 2015 at 1:56 pmJas

    Ray
    Job had no sin to repent of. Your lack of knowledge of historical and cultural context is enormous . If Job had sin then he would have been instructed to offer up a sacrifice . There was no such thing as just repenting without offering a sacrifice but this is beyond your comprehension . I have never preached self righteousness, only God can define righteousness.
    You on the other hand define righteousness by 3 men and satan and by calling God a liar have crawled into bed with satan.

  175. on 13 Sep 2015 at 4:53 pmRay

    Jas,

    So when the Lord asked Job who it was that darkened council by words without knowledge, why didn’t Job answer that it was his 3 friends, Elihu, and Satan himself, and that he was the only one still standing on all that is right, as if he did nothing wrong at all?

    But that wasn’t Job’s answer was it?

    Can you even recognize what repentance is? Would you know it if it had sharp teeth and rose up and bit you on the backward parts?

  176. on 13 Sep 2015 at 5:00 pmRay

    What should we suppose would happen to a church that preached self righteousness, or what some call hyper grace?

    I imagine that such leaven would spread throughout until such a time as there was some kind of time of accounting, and then, with so much self righteousness being within it, and no one repenting of their sins, no one coming clean, especially in their leadership, I expect that it would soon destroy itself, making shipwreck of itself, with it’s members being broken up into a thousand pieces, and scattered.

    I trust that such a thing would be their end.

    And then, would any of them ever get it right?

  177. on 13 Sep 2015 at 5:17 pmJas

    Ray
    When God asked that question Job did not know Elihu was possessed by Satan. Job knew that Satan claimed to have done all the things that God was now declaring He was the ONE who did all these things . Job realizes that Satan was the accuser not God which made all the difference in realizing God did not punish righteous like he was deceived to believe.
    If God did punish righteousness he would not be a Just God . Job knew something was fishy when God himself did not present the charge or provide a messenger as an advocate.

    Ray I understand the meaning and use of repent and also know it was not even mentioned in the book of Job.
    Ray not even metaphorically can repentance bite you. You come up with some off the wall stuff that makes absolutely no sense. lol

  178. on 13 Sep 2015 at 5:23 pmJas

    What should we suppose would happen to a church that preached self righteousness, or what some call hyper grace?

    Ray
    Almost every church today preaches self righteousness and hyper grace, You have preached it here. God defined Righteousness and Grace.

  179. on 13 Sep 2015 at 6:14 pmRay

    Jas,

    So everyone preaches self righteousness and hyper grace except you, is that it? You’re friends are wrong, anyone else, and it was the Devil too, and you are the only one left standing, while you can not accept the simple fact that Job repented and was accepted by the Lord because he did, is that it?

    So I guess you preach error as you practice it and that makes you true, is that it?

    You will come to the end of your error if you do not repent. May no one else listen to you except those who will also come to their own destruction.

  180. on 13 Sep 2015 at 6:17 pmRay

    My only hope is that such people will have a visitation by the Lord Jesus Christ and see their condition as Job did.

  181. on 13 Sep 2015 at 7:55 pmJas

    Ray
    I believe that received the reward of Israel one must accept the Commandments ,must be baptized in the name of the High Priest and then be taught how to properly follow it by the indwelling of a HOLY Spirit. This I have not got past the deception of Satan .
    Grace is a gift given to mankind on account of Jesus’ perfection in God’s Commandments unto death which the price was completely paid to remove the curse caused by Adam’s sin which caused remaining in death to reign .
    So no I am not self righteous and I thank God for giving Grace to mankind. I will accept what God judges me at Great White Throne Judgment just being thankful for chance of judgment .
    Please dont have your Jesus visit me because false christianity already accuses me falsely.

  182. on 13 Sep 2015 at 9:15 pmRay

    People who talk in their sleep don’t make much sense.

    America needs a spiritual awakening.

  183. on 14 Sep 2015 at 9:10 amRay

    So it seems that some people think Job should have answered the Lord from the whirlwind, that it was his 3 friends and that other guy that darkened council by words without knowledge, but Job himself wouldn’t listen to them.

    Yes, self righteousness being more valuable than repentance, life or death being the choice for Job, and if we want to be preachers of self righteousness and death that is what some will preach instead of the truth.

    I remember what Jesus said about two men, one of them a Pharisee who prayed that he was satisfied that he wasn’t like other men, and another man who smote his breasts condemning himself, and it was him who went away justified.

    But what value does justification have these days? I believe it still holds the same value among the wise.

    Yes, I believe Elihu hoped for Job’s repentance, for he desired to see him justified, and who knows? Maybe some of the things he said made a difference to Job, for Job indeed repented and thereby was promoted over his three friends.

  184. on 14 Sep 2015 at 10:25 amJas

    Ray
    Lets simplify this.
    Why did God allow satan to test Job?
    Was it because God declared Job unrighteous ?
    By allowing Satan to test Job was God saying he was casting Job away because he walked with wicked men?
    What was the reason God allowed satan to test Job?

    Conclusion is if any of the 4 speakers contradict the true reason then they were bearing false witness therefore were siding with satan. Job was perfect in the test that God allowed ,this angered satan so satan then set out to trap Job while he was in an extremely weaken state by moving these men against Job .Today interrogators uses cruel punishments to entice a confession.Problem is they will confess falsely to stop it.
    Job was truthful that God does not punish men for following God’s way which according to God himself Job was perfect in God ways at the time both test started which is the context of the conversation . Job sides with God and 4 speakers with satan that Job unrighteousness brought about this punishment but we know God was not punishing Job but was using Job to shame satan who rebelled against God’s way from the beginning .

  185. on 14 Sep 2015 at 3:04 pmJas

    “So it seems that some people think Job should have answered the Lord from the whirlwind, that it was his 3 friends and that other guy that darkened council by words without knowledge, but Job himself wouldn’t listen to them.”

    Ray most people who do not have a doctrine to protect see all 4 speakers spoke falsely about why this happened to Job.
    Fact is the english translations translate very important verse incorrectly to protect doctrine adding words and changing sentence structure .
    You are blameless because of this deception.

  186. on 14 Sep 2015 at 7:24 pmRay

    Jas,

    It’s a glaring self righteousness problem you have. Let’s look at it like this, Lets say that

    1.God allowed Satan to test righteous Job.

    2. God was not saying he was casting away Job for walking with wicked men.

    3. Suppose Job would have robbed a bank some time since 1 and 2.

    Could it then be said that God would not be pleased with him for the reason of bank robbery, and that he was hiding his face from him because of this kind of personal sin?

    I would think that if indeed Job did commit bank robbery, then it certainly could be that God would be hiding his face from him for such a personal sin, and by a man saying so, this in no way contradicts 2. above.

    But you seem to think that if Job did 1. or 2. or whatever, that he therefore would never have to be responsible for anything he did thereafter, for that seems that you are indeed suggesting this sort of nonsense by your preaching of self righteousness and being contrary to sound doctrine and repentance.

    Were you one of those people who either were once considered leadership, or aspiring leadership, who were invited to some leadership teachings, where the scriptures on Job were hacked to pieces, and they people were told that they had to commit to following such a certain leader who was in all sorts of self righteousness?

    Who taught you to think this way?

    Back then we should have asked a few questions of such bad leadership. We should have asked them if they were crazy, if they were nuts, or if the problem was that they simply didn’t have any sense.

    Suppose a man says to the Lord, “Just let me cheat on my wife and my taxes, and all the rest of everything you tell me to do, I do.”

    Does that mean he’s righteous?

  187. on 14 Sep 2015 at 7:27 pmRay

    Job did not commit bank robbery, but he did do a lot of things that were never mentioned in the first few chapters of the book that bears his name, and yes, he needed to repent, and he did, and yes the Lord accepted him because he repented.

  188. on 14 Sep 2015 at 7:34 pmRay

    And that old ministry organization that we were no longer welcome at, lots of us still sent in our offerings, and they sent the checks back, and later they had financial problems. Go figure.

  189. on 14 Sep 2015 at 7:50 pmJas

    Ray
    Have you read the whole book of Job or just what you find in proof text bible.
    Lets see about what God says about the reason for Job to receive this type of punishment .
    Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him WITHOUT CAUSE.”

    Ray do you understand what “WITHOUT CAUSE.” means.
    Job’s 3 friends and Elihu state God had Cause to do these things ,this is speaking of why these things HAPPENED TO JOB EVEN BEFORE HE OPENED HIS MOUTH TO SPEAK.
    WHO DO YOU BELIEVE? God or satan

  190. on 14 Sep 2015 at 7:59 pmJas

    “And that old ministry organization that we were no longer welcome at, lots of us still sent in our offerings, and they sent the checks back, and later they had financial problems. Go figure.”

    Wow an honest ministry kicked you out and had the integrity to send your offering checks back even if that meant financial problems and you are knocking them???
    Tell us about yourself

  191. on 14 Sep 2015 at 8:43 pmRay

    I’m one that believes they threw out a lot of good people, people who knew their teachings and practice was wrong. There was a lot of sin going on in the leadership and they with no just cause black listed a lot of people who still had faith in the ministry, and they returned their offerings.

    Now how do you think the Lord took that? What we do to one of the least of them….

    Jas, not only do I have some idea of what “without cause” means, but I also know that what happens in December will be held accountable, no matter how perfect a man was in September.

    Watch your time. Watch your place. It matters to God. Read the whole book as I did, and listen to Elihu who was moved by the Spirit of God.

  192. on 14 Sep 2015 at 8:50 pmJas

    Ray
    Elihu told me they kicked you out because after they kicked you out you were self righteous.

    Ray do you go around making trouble trolling for arguments ?

  193. on 14 Sep 2015 at 8:51 pmRay

    Jas,

    The Lord is going to hold you accountable for that post.

  194. on 14 Sep 2015 at 8:59 pmJas

    Ray
    I highly doubt that, he is probably clapping .

  195. on 15 Sep 2015 at 8:27 amRay

    Jas,

    Read Luke 6:25.

  196. on 15 Sep 2015 at 9:12 amJas

    Ray
    What was funny?
    I applied your reasoning in Job to an event in your life.
    Also ask a very serious question based upon you post on a site that holds none of your beliefs and circumstances of your church having reason to ask you to leave.
    Ray do you go around making trouble trolling for arguments ?

  197. on 15 Sep 2015 at 10:40 amTimoteo

    Jas,

    Would you share the link to # 196 site mentioned, please?

    Thank you!

    Ray,

    Jesus told his first chosen fishermen, they would be trolling for men, not arguments?

    Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

    Mark 1:17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

    Proverbs 26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.

    Proverbs 30:33 Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.

    (all bible verses were copy/pasted from “BibleGateway” using Windows 8/10 conversion)

  198. on 15 Sep 2015 at 2:07 pmJas

    Timothy
    The site is Kingdom Ready Blog. Ray does not believe in any of the beliefs associated with this Blog . What is his reason for coming here if it is not trolling for an argument . He is not interested in discussion which each and everyone on this blog have tried to have with him, I mean everyone if you read back 6 years.
    I just want to know his reasoning for posting here.

  199. on 15 Sep 2015 at 6:25 pmTimoteo

    Jas.

    Yes, I have noticed the same “go around making trouble trolling for arguments”.

    About five years ago a fellow facebooker mentioned a loco on KRB.

    Always being in contention by contradicting what ever everyone ever writes.

    James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

  200. on 15 Sep 2015 at 7:05 pmJas

    I have tried to give Ray the benefit of the doubt not really knowing what caused him to be so difficult but seeing the accidental post it seems he may go about making division in churches. This made we wonder why he post at KRB when he does not believe any belief associated with this blog.

  201. on 15 Sep 2015 at 9:11 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    It seems that perhaps, as of lately, someone else is writing in his stead.

    His sentence structures are, some what, more sophistication in content and contrariness now.

    Maybe he has given over to an auto pilot mode of automatic writing?

  202. on 15 Sep 2015 at 9:38 pmRay

    As 9/11 rolled by again I read about remembering the most diabolical attacks by a few misguided individuals, who were able to put to the ground the twin towers in a single morning.

    And I still wonder….Did they know what crashing hundreds of gallons of jet fuel into one of those buildings would do? Did they know that the steel reinforced floors would stay intact while the supporting steel heated up until it became like wet noodles? Did they know the floors would come crashing down, increasing the loads in geometric proportions? Did they know to crash the planes not on the top floor, but not too near the bottom floor either?

    And so what do we gain by remembering 9/11? Much in many ways I suppose, about the bravery of a few, about how temporary and fragile life in this world can be, about the need to be thinking in terms of eternity, and perhaps we should be remembering how just a few twisted individuals can do so much damage and how this threat is still very much real, and how our greatest strategy to prevent these sort of attacks, or any threat is through the fear of God, and obedience to his will.

    So since 9/11, how have we been doing to seek with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength to do those things that please God because we are fully aware that without his protection and blessing a nation can not endure. It can not survive without him, and therefore we are obligated to do those things that are commanded of him.

    So how are we doing? The Prime Minister of Israel came to plead with congress, because his nation has been bullied by it’s neighboring evils, and he asked that this Iran deal not go through. He knew the intent of the President as well as the illness of any deal that would be made.

    So when the oppressed come to us with a real matter that is a legitimate cause of some sort of present distress, did we do justly?
    Did we do the thing that would please God in this deal?

    How about the recent decision of the majority of the Supreme court of the United States on marriage lately? Was that the best they could do to please God who ordained marriage between one man and one woman in the beginning, and took of his flesh and of his bone in order to make him a bride and bring about a family? (shadow of the gospel?)

    So if we are to remember 9/11, Let’s remember it with a good mentality, one in accordance with the teachings of scripture whether it be from the book of Job, or from the gospels.

    Didn’t Jesus mention hell about as much as he said “the kingdom of heaven”?

    Have we learned nothing since 9/11?

    Whether among the voters, the politicians, or the judges, are we better off spiritually, in our mentality, about how to best prevent these sort of tragedies? Our protection comes from God. What have we been doing in obedience to him? Have we embraced his way? Have we been embracing the cross? (or have we been preaching self righteousness and been against repentance?)

    Job 34:29
    When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

    (Watch me close. Don’t let me get away with anything. Some of you might want to read the next verse)

  203. on 15 Sep 2015 at 10:02 pmRay

    As I read Job 34:31,32, I had to ask myself, Did the president and congress, and the judges, and the American people do this?

    Did congress get together and say to God, “Surely this 9/11 thing has been a burden to us. It hurts. We sincerely desire to not offend you anymore. That which we don’t see, will you teach us? …..

    I wonder if anyone would have dared to ask about 40 million babies aborted and what his opinion was about that, and if they should some sort of protection of life in the womb act or something.

    Are we in a better spiritual condition now, or were we actually better off in 2000 or so? Where are we at? Any wise men that know the times?

  204. on 15 Sep 2015 at 10:18 pmJas

    Timothy
    Yes I noticed in about 75% of his post lately. Maybe someone who was banned of the triny flavor joined forces with Ray.

  205. on 16 Sep 2015 at 7:21 amTimoteo

    Jas,

    Sure am glad your perception is parallel with mine.

    “Maybe someone who was banned of the triny flavor joined forces with Ray.”

    Furthermore, maybe someone who banned someone is Ray masquerading as a triny flavor force just to get votes or more discourse out of an empty gas tank?

    After so many years, Ray is not eligible or reliable to be called an APISTIA unbeliever.

    By this time, after years of hearing, one would be a professional, rather than the common απειτια — APEiTHIA, un-persuaded and un-believing un-believer.

  206. on 16 Sep 2015 at 9:01 amRay

    I’ve definitely heard so much of self righteousness and really do not believe it to be the right way. I believe repentance is better.

  207. on 16 Sep 2015 at 9:12 amRay

    Some here have been like an empty gas tank. I wonder if they have been hanging around an empty filling station too long. But as far as self righteousness and repentance goes, when one comes to that kind of fork in the road, it might be time to pray and think about the fruit.

    Which road might lead to all sorts of fruit trees, well watered, and which road might lead to aridity and desolation?

    If we are not sure of the doctrine, how about thinking about the works? Should we believe for the sake of the works, or should we not?

  208. on 16 Sep 2015 at 1:20 pmJas

    Timothy
    It does seem unnatural that in light of all the resources that have been presented on this blog that anyone could not be persuaded of the simplest misconception. It is like Ray doesn’t read anything .
    Oh well I guess he left because there has been no post by him in over a day .

  209. on 16 Sep 2015 at 6:28 pmRay

    What was there but repentance that was key to Job’s deliverance?

    Yes, we could say that his obedience to the word of the Lord was it also, and that too, but what was his turning point, and what was it that caused him to turn?

    When he had an up close and personal meeting with the Lord, this began something new for him. Then came his repentance, and then his obedience to what he received, and then his freedom.

  210. on 16 Sep 2015 at 8:42 pmRay

    There is so much to learn from the Book of Job, and as I’ve said before, one of the things to learn is the importance of being sensitive to the holy spirit when we read. The first time I read from it, or heard it read to me as a child, early on in the book, before the conversations between the Lord and Satan, I knew there was going to be trouble, and I didn’t want to hear much more, though later on I was drawn to it, to read more.

    It’s important to remember that we need the anointing of the holy spirit to teach us whatever it is that he will teach us. The natural tendency of man is to live on his own whatever way he chooses, apart from God, even though we need him for everything.

    God had that book written the way he wanted it, not to deceive us, though we are so easily led astray by the flesh as a result of sin. But if we go astray, it isn’t the Lord who led us astray. It’s something we did on our own, by going our own way, something the flesh loves to do. It’s something that is a part of the fallen nature of man.

    Yes, Job was tested and we are tested too as we read. It’s the way God wanted it, I guess.

    It’s important to watch our time, and watch our place, and watch our punctuation also. In this life we will be tested once, and again, and yet again. If we are truly led by the spirit of God and receive from him we will not be destroyed. We will overcome by his grace.

    Jesus told Peter (Matt 16) that the Church would be built by Christ, and the gates of hell would not overcome it. Most teachers who teach from Matt 16:17,18 do so by saying that it is the revelation of the Father which is that mass of rock that we need, and I believe this is true. Jesus came to make the Father known, and the Father will lead us to Jesus Christ.

  211. on 17 Sep 2015 at 9:40 amJas

    Timothy
    I don’t think there would be any profit for this to come from inside nor do I think they would.
    I think the fact Ray is a leader of a group that goes around creating division in churches that Ray’s new ability exist from a partner in his group . It must have been something very disruptive for them to return checks and probably the financial burden came from legal services to restrain his group from retaliation .

  212. on 17 Sep 2015 at 11:40 amTimoteo

    Jas,

    Well, at least you see there is something fishy about the rapid rap intellect change.

    after trying to help Ray look into the mirror to see the error of his belief, and then to have the KR Ray persona completely shift to a highly difficult topic like JOB from the slam dunk triny/JC’s preexistence….. were we being used as wrestling dumdum dummys? Which dumb donkey was doing the talking?

    a copy/past, possible, explanation:

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

  213. on 17 Sep 2015 at 5:57 pmRay

    One of the most effective ways of demonic forces in the heavenly realm, the rulers of the darkness of this world, they gain an advantage over God’s people is through obscuring their vision, darkening legitimate counsel, twisting the teaching of scripture, and hardening the heart of man causing him to become callous and unrepentant.

    Once man’s vision gets clouded, becomes foggy, and he can’t see very clearly, he then begins to get a distorted picture of God in his mind. He begins to get a paradigm of God that is darkened.

    Those sorts of perspectives are from the enemies of God. Satan doesn’t want God’s people to have a proper perspective of him, for he must know that by beholding the Lord, people are changed from glory to glory.

    There’s a vision Eliphaz experienced, that came to him in the night, and it seems to me that it held within it some form of bitterness against God as it desired to obscure Eliphaz’s perspective of the Lord. (see Job 4:13-21.)

    And the most important point seems to be at the end. Writers will often put their main point at the end. Few seem to resist the chance to sum up whatever it is they wish to say.

    It’s a little bit of a different message about wisdom than we find in the book of James, isn’t it?

    When the heart of man has a veil over it, and he can not see clearly through the eyes of his heart, then darkness has gained an advantage over the believer, one that it had been seeking to obtain.

    Who can know things about the Lord’s existence and his glory when he has a darkened veil over his heart? These veils obscure the light of God. He may believe he sees the Lord more clearly than others, but it might not really be so.

  214. on 17 Sep 2015 at 7:08 pmRay

    One thing I find interesting about the book of Job is that we might not be seeing the counsel of the Lord that we would like to see, because as Elihu pointed out, the Lord does show people their transgressions, their work, and he does open their ear to discipline, and commands them to return to him from their iniquity. (see Job 36:9,10) This counsel, to whatever measure it was given, was something given to Job, something Job might not have been revealing to us.

    This book is sometimes not so much about what is seen, but about some things that are not clearly seen, and it’s for us to search these things out.

  215. on 17 Sep 2015 at 9:35 pmRay

    Here is an interesting verse I just came across in my reading which helps me see the Lord more clearly and also some things in the scripture. It’s I Kings 8:39 which speaks of the Lord only, knowing the hearts of all.

  216. on 18 Sep 2015 at 6:37 pmRay

    If we are going to know the Lord Jesus of the new testament, it might do us good to learn something of the Lord from a much older time, such as from the book of Job.

    I was thinking a bit about the Lord speaking from the whirlwind and wondered if Job’s friends also experienced that, and for that matter, I wondered about Elihu also, or if this was something that only Job experienced.

    I wonder if it was something they all experienced. The glory of that must have been awesome. It certainly changed Job. Experiencing such things is no doubt life changing, whether it was a prophetic vision or whatever it was.

    Eliphaz’s dream or vision of the night (see chp 4) must have paled in comparison with the experience with the Lord from the whirlwind, whoever it was that experienced all of that.

    So what are nightmares or whatever from darkness to tell us? I believe it should be a sign to us that we need to get to seeking God through prayer, reading of scripture, or by doing whatever else we should be doing wherever we might have fallen short. Likely something for us to do, before we tell anyone else that it’s time to pray or whatever, unless it’s revealed to us to tell someone else it’s time for them to pray also, which it may very well be so. I personally don’t fault Eliphaz for encouraging Job to seek God. I believe that is the thing we should do whenever we are in distress, confusion, or some kind of darkness, fog, or heaviness of heart, or trouble, or whatever.

    I do believe the Lord was at work in the Spirit, through counsels in the heart. I trust the Lord was there for Job through all of this, in some way by the Spirit.

    Whenever trouble comes, I believe it is a good time to seek the Lord.

  217. on 18 Sep 2015 at 7:02 pmRay

    Will men ever seek the Lord and not find him? Yes I believe that may happen if men have not been listening to the Lord, or have hardened their hearts against him. If they have been walking in darkness for awhile, he might be not so easily found.

    See Proverbs 1 on this.

  218. on 18 Sep 2015 at 8:33 pmRay

    One of my brothers once painted a picture of a tall microphone on a stage with a round spotlight on it. Just that.

    In an art class in school once the teacher told us that in that class we could be anywhere we wanted to be. I remember drawing from memory the concrete beams of the underside of a bridge where I used to go fishing. There was a place where the concrete had been formed crooked as if one of the forms had slipped during the pour, or maybe it was just made crooked and left that way. The teacher wondered why I had drawn it that way, but later I think he recognized the place.

    If I was an artist I would like to paint a man laying down maybe with the back of one hand over his eyes, and through the roof of his house, a narrow sunbeam from heaven, breaking out from the clouds, and shining upon his heart.

  219. on 18 Sep 2015 at 10:12 pmRay

    I think Job is a book where gold is to be refined, even as it speaks of (chp 28:1) it. It’s also like a riddle. Did you ever hear a riddle where you had to figure out some part of it? It’s a book to work out our salvation. Sometimes it reminds me of the book of Romans. It often leads me throughout scripture. It has so much to teach.

  220. on 18 Sep 2015 at 10:35 pmRay

    I Thes 5:21

  221. on 19 Sep 2015 at 10:04 amRay

    Time and again, I’ve found things from the Elihu section to be proven by scripture.

  222. on 19 Sep 2015 at 10:14 amRay

    Do we have to be broken to hear from God? No, not always, but sometimes we hear the best when we are. It’s the humble that God raises up.

  223. on 20 Sep 2015 at 8:39 pmJas

    Timothy
    I guess the Ray we come to know is gone.
    Just to bring discussion to a conclusion .
    Who knew the heart of Job? God or satan
    So who was right?God or satan

  224. on 21 Sep 2015 at 5:39 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    Ray always comes back.

    Can not hardly wait, tons to read in the next defense.

  225. on 21 Sep 2015 at 10:15 pmRay

    Since we as Christians should want to know who Jesus is, or what he is, whether prophet, messiah, or God, (I say he is all three) it will do us good to learn of him wherever we can from scripture.

    In Job, I consider Jesus to have been Job’s way, which he said at one time was hid from him. (see Prov 1) He’s also the wisdom of God. He is Job’s desire for a Daysman. (even the one who was present by the Spirit of God, who we did not know was there but who heard every word) He is Job’s candle that shined upon his head, the light whereby Job walked (see chp 29) through darkness. He was the secret of God that was upon Job’s tabernacle, and the Almighty that was with him, and the rock that poured him out rivers of oil, the blessing of him that was ready to perish that came upon Job, and the cause whereby the widow’s heart sang for joy.

    Yes, he was there for Job. God counseled Job in the chambers of the heart, where the Spirit of God does his work, and Jesus was there by the Spirit of God.

    He is more than just a prophet. He is the Christ, the Messiah, and he is the Almighty Lord. He is God. (discern what I say)

  226. on 21 Sep 2015 at 10:50 pmJas

    Some think the story of Job was about Job and 4 speakers.
    It has a very simple context which was satan claiming God could not know the heart of a man but could persuade by bribing him with success. Satan was attempting to put God on par with him because bribery is satan’s main tool over leaders throughput history, he even attempted bribery with Jesus.
    God was on trial and Job’s Righteousness his only defense.
    Satan loves that Most of christianity thinks he was right about Job.

  227. on 22 Sep 2015 at 3:58 amTimoteo

    Jas,

    You are always right.

    Ray does not seem to read all the 10’s of thousands of words we have written to help him get deliverance from all the false poppy cock he believes and writes about. And here and now still continues to write about.

    He now makes another bold and false statement:

    “Since we as Christians should want to know who Jesus is, or what he is, whether prophet, messiah, or God, (I say he is all three) it will do us good to learn of him wherever we can from scripture.

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

    He is more than just a prophet. He is the Christ, the Messiah, and he is the Almighty Lord. He is God. (discern what I say)”

    Well Ray. I have been discerning what you are saying for too, too long and Jas continues to discern what you are saying and we both take great pains to use scripture for doctrine, reproof and correction to give you instruction in righteousness.

    In one ear and right straight through and out the other.

    Jesus Christ is the only man of GOD who was, who is and who will be for ever and ever more:

    Profit

    Priest

    and King

    I am/have exhausted copy/pasting scriptures supporting our lord and savoir’s position as being Profit, Priest and King……..

  228. on 22 Sep 2015 at 1:53 pmJas

    Timothy
    I wish I was right with 100% certainty but the deception is very complex and is led by a Being who has intelligence beyond mankind.

    The personality of Ray had the agenda of guilt of not loving Jesus enough to exalt Jesus to God. I fell for it in thinking there was no harm in it when driven by love but Jesus would be offended by it so should we.
    How many people have had questions about the trinity only to have the agenda of not loving Jesus enough shame them into dismissing those questions. How many people that came here for answers have been effected by it existing here.

  229. on 22 Sep 2015 at 8:09 pmRay

    People are being shamed by religious men for worshiping Jesus as they ought to. There is so much of God in Christ, where are the limits?
    He is as limitless as the Father himself is. People are supposed to be free, as free as birds in flight far above the contours of this earth.

  230. on 22 Sep 2015 at 8:14 pmRay

    The deceitful tricks of religious men will not hold back true worshippers.

  231. on 22 Sep 2015 at 8:23 pmRay

    I don’t think speaking in tongues is the only way to worship in spirit and truth. When we worship Jesus properly, we honor God and magnify him. Religious men want to put restrictions on our worship, but true worship is so much greater than their narrow vision through darkened veils.

    I remember seeing the iron curtain when I was on a tour in Germany back in the early 80’s. We saw the iron curtain. It was a black mesh, a woven tall fence, and you could look straight through it and see the country on the other side. You could see the green grass and the hills and trees, but if you looked to the left or right you were blinded because of the fence, the iron curtain. So if you walked the border, you could see more of the country, the lay of the land, but you never knew if a reaction force was moving out toward you, or making regular inspections of the fence.

  232. on 22 Sep 2015 at 8:50 pmJas

    “The deceitful tricks of religious men will not hold back true worshippers.”

    Ray are you saying Unitarians use deceitful tricks?

  233. on 23 Sep 2015 at 7:20 amRay

    Jas,

    Are you saying none of them ever do?

  234. on 23 Sep 2015 at 8:10 amJas

    Ray
    Unitarians try to know the truth about God and the Man Jesus by using the bible apart from doctrine.
    Is it deceitful to use simple verses?

  235. on 23 Sep 2015 at 10:37 amJas

    Ray
    Do you feel that coming here proclaiming Jesus as God as the truth that you are offering us Salvation ? Was it that way when your group infiltrated that church ? What were their sins that your group was trying to help them overcome? Was it they did not believe Jesus was God?

  236. on 23 Sep 2015 at 2:13 pmTimoteo

    Ray,

    I have the same questioner:

    “Do you feel that coming here proclaiming Jesus as God as the truth that you are offering us Salvation ?”

    “your group infiltrated that church”

    What is the name of your group?

    What is the name of the church you infiltrated?

    What were the sins of the infiltrated church?

    Had your group already overcome the same sins?

    Who taught your group that they should teach other groups also that Jesus is GOD?

  237. on 23 Sep 2015 at 3:23 pmRay

    Proverbs says this:

    A false balance is abomination to the Lord; but a just weight is his delight. -Prov 11:1

    It’s true that Jesus is the Son of God, but it’s also true that so many people don’t fathom the depth of that truth. They seem to like to stay in the shallow waters as part of some kind of…Blessed Order Of The…One Universal Truth or something. (BOOT OUT)

    But is it the whole truth? Is it a complete weight? Is that all there is?

  238. on 25 Sep 2015 at 10:36 pmRay

    Not only is a just weight depending on it’s weight not coming up shy, but also there should not be anything added to it that would make it more than it is supposed to be, and this too is not right in God’s sight.

    As it has been said, there is a ditch on both sides of the road.

  239. on 26 Sep 2015 at 10:48 amJas

    Ray
    How are we to balance the 2 Ray’s ?
    The one who has presented himself as limited and challenged who everyone here has tried to help and sometimes defended.
    The one who seems more educated with an agenda to divide by jerking peoples heart strings about not loving Jesus enough to make Him God.
    While it may seem you are walking the middle of the path, it is walking in both ditches that creates that medium by illusion .
    You have been asked questions about your motives for posting on an unitarian blog with the same proclamation every time.
    Please enlighten us.

  240. on 26 Sep 2015 at 2:04 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    “How are we to balance the 2 Ray’s ?”

    Ray claims to have a ditch on each side of his pathway to salvation.

    Perhaps this is his metaphoric, meaning he will be the blind being led by the blind and he always falls into both ditches at the same time simultaneously?

    And Jesus loved, loves and will always love GOD enough not to be an idolater himself and an idolater of himself.

    We are never trying to hurt his feelings, but to rescue him from the darkness where he sleeps and is sleeping.

    Romans 13: (KJV)
    11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

  241. on 26 Sep 2015 at 9:15 pmRay

    What can we say about Jesus, that by the grace of God he is what he is?

    He doesn’t need the grace of God. He is the grace of God.

  242. on 27 Sep 2015 at 8:51 pmJas

    Ray
    You can not just return to nonsense . How can Jesus be by the grace of God then not have needed it which by your claim he was it?
    You even contradict your own Word.
    Can you not give a honest reply to the questions ask by us ?

  243. on 28 Sep 2015 at 9:49 pmRay

    Yes Jesus came by the grace of God, for by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves. It is the gift of God.

    Jesus is both the gift of God to us and his grace given to us.

  244. on 28 Sep 2015 at 9:57 pmRay

    How can a sinless man, a perfect man, a man who is the fullness of God, a man who is eternal life, be in need of anything? Jesus lacks nothing. He never sinned. Why would he be in need of grace?

    We are the ones who are in need of God’s grace, and we are the ones who have received of his grace.

    As Jesus is right now, why would he be in need of grace? He’s not in need of anything. He dwells in the Father and the Father in him. We are the ones in need of grace.

  245. on 28 Sep 2015 at 9:59 pmJas

    Ray
    Jesus himself received Grace otherwise he would still be reigned by death. Common Grace is mankind nolonger being punished by the sin of one man. Jesus is not Grace nor came by Grace. Jesus is the reason for Grace.
    How about answering those questions now!

  246. on 29 Sep 2015 at 7:31 pmRay

    Jas,

    What questions are you referring to? Yes Jesus is the reason for grace. We need the grace of God that we might serve him. Serving the Lord is our purpose, our calling, and we need the grace of God to do whatever it is he wants us to do. Yes God gave us grace for a purpose. Jesus is that grace God gave us in order to serve him. We can not serve God without Christ. We can not earn a gift from God. Jesus is that gift of God to the world that the world might be saved.

    Yes, Jesus received grace, the grace of God. God filled him with that grace in order to minister according to his calling which was the gospel of God toward us for our salvation.

    Dwelling in God as he is and does today, he is not in need of grace. He is fully sufficient in all things. We are the ones today who are in need of the grace of God. We are in constant need of it, and we do receive it because of Jesus.

  247. on 29 Sep 2015 at 8:13 pmJas

    Ray
    You know exactly what questions.
    No we need Grace from the curse of remaining in the grave forever . This is a gift to mankind which price was paid in full by Jesus being perfect unto death,what the first Adam failed to do. Every time you add requirements to Grace you discount the price Jesus paid. There are other forms of Grace which are offered because of the Law and the Sacrifice but this Grace only provides a prolonged life during the millennium . Jesus does not dwell in God ,he exist in His presence .
    The one thing your right about is Jesus does not currently need Grace because he was already saved from the grave. Adam would not have needed Grace if he would have been perfect in God’s Laws.
    Love is why someone should serve God, Grace has nothing to do with it.
    There is absolutely nothing we can do to earn or lose Grace. It saves you from the grave so you can have your court date for your own actions.

  248. on 29 Sep 2015 at 11:18 pmRay

    Jas,

    Discern this:

    Only God knows how God is to be worshipped.
    It takes God to serve God, which is why we need Jesus.

  249. on 30 Sep 2015 at 7:42 amJas

    Ray
    God has given us his instruction in Word how he is to be worshipped by his people,the same Word Jesus used. It just takes an effort to read it in truth and ignore manmade doctrines which distort it.

  250. on 30 Sep 2015 at 6:28 pmJas

    Ray
    When discerning nonsense you still end up with nonsense. There must be atleast some hint of rational thought for it to be considered sense

  251. on 30 Sep 2015 at 7:27 pmRay

    In order to worship as we ought to, simply having written instructions or written examples isn’t enough. We also need to have something of which God is, something of himself that he gives to us which then can become a part of us.

  252. on 30 Sep 2015 at 8:27 pmJas

    Ray
    Again nonsense ,everything we need to know is in His Word. Are you unaware that God’s people worshipped HIM long before Jesus came into existence or (even in your pre existence claim) was revealed.
    The OT is full of righteous people who worshipped God.

  253. on 30 Sep 2015 at 9:24 pmRay

    I trust that Old Testament believers called upon the name of the Lord in the spirit of wisdom which was the spirit of God to them at that time. Without that, where would they have been? It was so necessary.

    If as today as men of understanding seem to always be about writing books, I suppose there were some writings back then, even before Moses, but still it would be necessary to worship God in the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom, written words, by themselves being not enough, unless finding some spiritual connection with the Almighty by some spiritual light that was in the world at that time. (see Proverbs 8 and John 1)

    The natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God. (I Cor 2:14)

  254. on 30 Sep 2015 at 9:49 pmJas

    Ray
    People were taught the Word of God by the priesthood, It was read to the people of God every Sabbath. God states over and over again that they had enough knowledge from His Word to Worship Him in Truth. It was outside pagan doctrines that drew some of His People away from His Word but God states that in every generation the was always a minority that worshipped him in truth.
    Promises were made by God to these righteous people that provided for them to have a prolonged life during the age of possession of the land promised to Abraham. Unless God was a liar then these people received one type of Grace which did not come because of Jesus but after they died during that age death would have returned to reigning over them. So they were still in need of Grace from that curse which Jesus paid the price to remove.
    You should just trust every jot and tit in God’s Word and quit proclaiming some unstable men’s word

  255. on 01 Oct 2015 at 1:46 amRay

    Yes knowledge of God comes by hearing the word of God. It must be mixed with faith to be productive. If it is received in the fear of the Lord (which is the beginning of wisdom) it will produce something good. In the fear of the Lord, is wisdom. In the wisdom of God is the spirit of God. The spirit of God is in the word of God and must be connected to something of the spirit of God. Without the fear of the Lord, or without faith, what can the words produce?

    The scripture says over and over again that the spirit of wisdom gives knowledge. If a man has the knowledge of God, did he receive it without the fear of God? Fools do not receive instruction. Wise men do.

  256. on 01 Oct 2015 at 7:19 amJas

    Ray
    Yes faith is required to believe the Word of God contains the wisdom needed to worship God in truth. Fear is just acknowledging that God is in charge of the blessing and curse.
    You are right that fools do not receive(accept) instruction from the Word but that is because most read it for proof text for some unstable men’s doctrines instead of just receiving it in truth

  257. on 02 Oct 2015 at 9:40 pmRay

    There was a day when I was riding dirt bike up in the mountains, and while I was riding, Jesus said to me in a still small voice that was more clear than I had ever heard before, and I knew it was Jesus, and he said, “Be still and know that I am God.”

    And I kept riding. And then he said, “Do you Believe that I am God?”.

    And I rode on some more. And then I answered and said, “I believe you are the holy spirit.”

    And a little bit later I added, “I mean that by comparison.”

    That’s my testimony.

    But he said to me, “Be still and know that I am God.”

  258. on 03 Oct 2015 at 10:33 amJas

    Ray
    In the 100’s of post where you came to proclaim Jesus as God using every tactic it seems very very odd not once or twice you never mentioned such a monumental event.
    Did you just make up this story thinking it would be evidence which would cause all of us unitarians to repent our beliefs ?
    If you are going to make up stories atleast be more thorough by showing us how you knew it was Jesus not satan pretending to be because this is exactly how satan would identity himself to mankind.

  259. on 03 Oct 2015 at 10:58 pmTimoteo

    Jas,

    Seems that Ray is hallucinating more of the time than not.

    Here is an easy check to check if Jesus really said:

    “Be still and know that I am God”

    Jesus has said to us before his passion, I will send the parakletos and bring to your remembrance things that I have said.

    All Jesus conversations are recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

    Here are the Bible Gateway results for:

    “Be still and know that I am God”

    Psalm 46: (KJV)
    10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

    Ray=FAIL=Ray=FAIL

    GOD did say “Be still and know that I am God” yes, however it was said by GOD before He YAHWEH had caused the conception of Jesus in Mary’s womb and of course before Jesus was born, carried out his ministry, endured crucifixion unto death, was raise from the dead by GOD his heavenly father YAHWEH to be the first fruits of the dead and ascended to heaven and sat down and continues to sit at his heavenly father YAHWEH’s right hand making intercession for his brethren and saints.

    Ray surely must believe he heard the words and thinks it was Jesus Christ speaking?

  260. on 04 Oct 2015 at 1:25 pmJas

    Timothy
    I highly doubt Jesus or God would quote an english translation that misses the context of the passage. I am sure Ray just made that up or satan used it pretending to be a minister of righteous or would not doubt claiming to be God.
    Ray Relax ,Know there is only ONE TRUE GOD

  261. on 10 Oct 2015 at 10:45 amRay

    Jas,

    You are going to have to see him or hear him to know him. When you walk by a picture of Jesus, do you know who it is? If you thought about it a bit, could you guess who it was? Did you ever know in your heart who it was that the artist painted?

    His sheep know his voice. I’m sure the world may be full of people who can walk by a picture of Jesus, and say, “I don’t know who that is.” Some might have once been followers of his.

    According to the scriptures, Jesus will be exhalted in the earth, even among the heathen.

    It’s one thing to type the word, and another thing to hear it. I trust the holy spirit is doing his part.

  262. on 10 Oct 2015 at 8:41 pmJas

    Ray
    No one ever painted Jesus, It was just imagination.
    So no its just a picture with no basis for the likeness of Jesus. It is highly doubtful Jesus had long hair.
    The picture could very well be satan.
    Why do you come here with made up stories trying to fabricate evidence thinking we are so weak minded that we can not spot a lie.
    I can’t wait for your next story. Maybe a bush,a rock,a whirlwind will tell you “know that the picture is God”.
    Whatever you come up with it will be worth a chuckle .

  263. on 11 Oct 2015 at 11:33 amRay

    It seems these things will only be revealed unto babes.

  264. on 11 Oct 2015 at 1:09 pmJas

    Ray
    Finally something to agree with. Yes satan,the beast and the false prophets rely upon the immature mind to promote their deception.

  265. on 12 Oct 2015 at 5:28 amRay

    Does anyone here believe in the Lord’s existence with the Father from before the foundation of the world, and that God created it by Jesus Christ? It’s the teaching of the Bible, quite plain and clear.

    But there is a thread that runs throughout some people’s Bibles isn’t there? It goes through Enoch, Elijah, Paul and his being absent from the body, a dead thread?

    The Lord will break every stronghold of the enemy.

  266. on 12 Oct 2015 at 5:35 amRay

    And let’s not forget Samuel, whom the Lord used to spank King Saul on the backside….tingles my ears.

  267. on 12 Oct 2015 at 9:39 amJas

    Ray
    No one here believes Jesus existed before his conception.
    Enoch and Elijah were removed from their locations to somewhere to keep them safe. We know neither saw God because ” 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.”
    Paul was just explaining a dream or vision.
    Lets say all these did see God ,just how does that support the pre-existance of Jesus. It simply would not be relevant .

  268. on 17 Oct 2015 at 10:12 pmRay

    Certainly Jesus existed as came out from God to enter into the womb of Mary. This he may have been alluding to when he witnessed to Nicodemus about being born of the Spirit.

    Elijah and Enoch are not on some remote planets somewhere. I trust they are with God in heaven.

    As we are on earth we may certainly say that no man has seen the Father at any time. (except Jesus)

    Those who are willing to truly seek understanding will find it.

  269. on 17 Oct 2015 at 11:24 pmJas

    Ray
    Jesus was conceived in the womb according to the greek Matthew , now your even contradicting verses you hold highly.
    Where Enoch and Eliyah went does not have any relevance to pre existence of Jesus.
    Understanding is not something you have ever shown here or ever expected to show.
    None of your last post made any sense

  270. on 18 Oct 2015 at 3:18 pmRay

    Jesus was conceived in the womb long after his existence. The Bible clearly says so. He didn’t need to have a fleshly body to create the heavens and the earth.

    Jas, You say you are a Christian, and don’t know these things?

  271. on 18 Oct 2015 at 3:41 pmJas

    Ray
    Absolutely no one can pre exist their conception which is key in understanding the beginning of ones existence . Jesus was conceived of the seed of David as every King of Israel.
    Ray being a christian is not dependent on knowledge or it could effect you.

  272. on 18 Oct 2015 at 7:43 pmRay

    Absolutely Jesus existed before his conception. He came down from heaven to enter into this world. Can a man come from some where if he didn’t first exist? Of course not.

    The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the maker of all things, God creating all things through him in the beginning, before the world was finished. That’s how it got done.

    Jas, Do you believe that men can not be in in heaven without first having had an existence prior, here upon this earth, or that men will not be a part of a new earth without first having had an existence prior, on a first earth?

    I don’t know what your reasoning is behind what you say, other than simply unbelief of what the scripture teaches.

    Let me ask you a basic carpentry question. Here it is:

    If I said I came down from a roof, would you tend to believe I was first on the roof?

  273. on 18 Oct 2015 at 8:10 pmRay

    It almost seems like there be some on this site who may have been influenced by Greek Mythology, for I remember learning a bit about Greek Mythology in a 9th grade English class, and it seemed every day that some student reminded the teacher that what he was saying didn’t make any sense, and his answer was always the same, that in Greek Mythology, anything goes! It doesn’t have to make any sense.

    Or, have you judged others to have been influenced by it and you have thereby, been judged, having been overcome by the same sort of thing?

    Whatever reason it is, you ought to go back to the teaching of scripture and get free of it.

  274. on 18 Oct 2015 at 8:21 pmRay

    As far as I can tell by the clarity of scripture, the fullness of God was in Christ before the world was, and by Jesus Christ all things were created. That’s how God did it. It’s how he decided to do it.

  275. on 18 Oct 2015 at 8:50 pmJas

    Ray2
    If they existed in heaven first then they are not human,the seed of a woman,the seed of David .What you espouse is absolute nonsense .
    Ray1
    You have Greek mythology in reverse. Nothing in my belief incorporates any part of any mythology concerning Jesus’ conception.
    I wish both of you would just do a little research and espouse a little rationality

  276. on 21 Oct 2015 at 8:40 amRay

    It seems to me to be a completely absurd idea proposed, that would say that Jesus had to be a human being in the flesh, in the presence of God, in order to be with him before the world was made. Utter nonsense! For doesn’t the Bible teach that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of heaven, and that no man can see God and live?

    Such ideas are as absurd as Greek Mythology itself, where it seems that anything goes.

    We must return to the teachings of scripture in order to have sound doctrine. Many are out to destroy it, it seems.

    So in what form was Jesus in when he was with God before the world was made?

    a. man
    b. God

  277. on 21 Oct 2015 at 10:44 amJas

    “It seems to me to be a completely absurd idea proposed, that would say that Jesus had to be a human being in the flesh, in the presence of God, in order to be with him before the world was made.”

    Ray
    You can not fathom just how absurd that is. For Jesus to have existed before his prophesized generation would mean Eve,Abraham,David and everyone in his genealogy would also. This dwarfs the nonsense of greek mythology. There is rational thought that helps with understanding that even before prophecies were given God had set forth a plan for a man to come and this plan was before this world was finished.

    C. PLAN

  278. on 21 Oct 2015 at 8:49 pmRay

    It’s absolutely absurd to harbor the idea that the Creator who was in the form of God, who created all things visible and invisible, according to the word and power of the Father, would depend on human beings for the beginning of his existence. How backwards!

    Jesus created man. Man did not create Jesus.

  279. on 21 Oct 2015 at 9:09 pmJas

    Ray
    Then maybe your Jesus is not the one spoken of in the Bible because He had a generation and a very long genealogy .I kind of suspected you would provide proof it was a different Jesus which was not flesh.
    The Bible actually speaks of this false belief.

  280. on 22 Oct 2015 at 9:48 amRay

    The Messiah, according to the scripture had a long standing with God the Father, being in the glorious likeness of his very image, long before he made man which would show forth his generation after he came into the world as he did.

    Since Jesus always did the Father’s will, and did only what he saw the Father do, he would quite naturally be seen as being in the likeness of God in this world.

    I trust he did the same, back before the world was finished.

  281. on 22 Oct 2015 at 10:30 amJas

    Ray
    Don’t be ashamed because even in John’s day the spirit of the anti christ was spinning satans deception.

    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    Ray ignoring clear verses or using proof text bible is what Peter is calling unlearned and unstable which leads to the destruction of rational thought. These people are easy picking for deceiving spirits to speak to

  282. on 22 Oct 2015 at 11:07 amJas

    Ray
    Your Jesus is everything you believe,this I can not debate. But the seed of a woman,of Abraham,of David,the Lion of the tribe of Judah,Prophet like Moses coming from Israel’s brethren can not be Your Jesus.
    So basically we are only debating a Name which you have applied to the spirit that leads you.

  283. on 22 Oct 2015 at 7:52 pmRay

    I was once with a group of Christians who had a book written by the founder and president of that group, and in it he stated that he did not believe Jesus was co-existing with God in the beginning, but it was the Holy Spirit that led me to know that in fact Jesus was with the Father before the world was made, and it is the teaching of scripture. (see Col 1 and John 1)

  284. on 22 Oct 2015 at 8:31 pmJas

    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Ray
    If a deceiving spirit claimed to be unholy just how effective would it be?
    Anyway your Jesus can not be biblical Jesus.

  285. on 22 Oct 2015 at 9:11 pmJas

    Ray
    Let me guess, the founder was Anthony so in revenge you come here as a thorn in his side and to cast stumbling blocks for people who come here to seek the truth.

  286. on 23 Oct 2015 at 10:01 pmRay

    Jas,

    I’ve never read a book by Anthony. I’m here to tell the truth about Jesus.

  287. on 23 Oct 2015 at 10:36 pmRay

    Isaiah 8:13-15
    Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
    And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
    And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared and be taken.

    Romans 9:33
    As it is written, Behold I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Isaiah 28:16
    Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    Jesus had always been in the world by the Spirit of God, in whom he existed and had his being. Zion was his dwelling place, and Israel his beloved. David knew of him and wrote of him. Isaiah saw his glory and wrote of him also.

    In the Spirit of God he witnessed unto men, even to the ungodly, to turn them from their wicked ways.

    John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

  288. on 24 Oct 2015 at 10:30 amJas

    Ray
    I never accussed you of ever reading a book. I was piecing together this statement “I was once with a group of Christians who had a book written by the founder and president of that group, and in it he stated that he did not believe Jesus was co-existing with God in the beginning” and the fact you had knowledge of this blog from the beginning . I am certain the group you mentioned was one of LHIM and you were probably ask to leave because you were there proclaiming your truth but not before they told the group about this blog.
    Ray the people here are seeking the truth and are way past the lie of a pre existent Jesus.

  289. on 24 Oct 2015 at 12:44 pmJas

    For what fellowship has belief in One God and Jesus came in the flesh with those that deny it.

  290. on 25 Oct 2015 at 9:12 amRay

    The scriptures speak clearly that those who deny Jesus having come in the flesh, that they can not have fellowship with God. The scripture is clear about the fact that there is one God, his Son who rules and reigns with him and is the head of all things pertaining to creation, and the Holy Spirit who also is with God, of God, and has always been apart from sin and corruption, and will always be so.

    I believe that those who can read and understand that Jesus was in fact with God from the beginning, and that God created all things by him, and that therefore Jesus is the maker of all things visible and invisible pertaining to everything of the creation of God, if they can apprehend this, but choose to publicly deny it, that such will at least in part be denied by Jesus Christ, for they deny the truth in part.

  291. on 25 Oct 2015 at 11:39 amJas

    Ray
    As concerning the generation of Jesus Unitarians use 99.9% of what was wrote about him to understand the .1% that is hard to understand. You on the reverse ignore 99.99% because it contradicts the .01% you use as proof text.
    What kind of rational thought espouses that Jesus will only deny a part of a person?
    Fact is you came here wrapped in sheep clothing to proclaim your truth .You have never read a single blog by the authors here but post the same thing over and over never reading resources posted by other people who go out of their way and off topic to help you.
    It is apparent you came to this blog with a secret Agenda which was driven out of retaliation for something that happened when you were found out in the group you mentioned above.

  292. on 25 Oct 2015 at 9:25 pmRay

    I trust that to whatever extent a man denies the truth, he will find himself denied, if he willfully chooses to deny it. That’s simply a matter of fairness.

    Concerning Jesus, everything there is about him, is all about God. God is all there is to be found in Christ. There is no darkness in him at all. He is the truth of God….all of it. He received it all. He is obedient to it all. He denies none of it. He knew where he came from. He knew where he was going. He knows where he is now. Those that are his, know these things now, and they will know so much more.

  293. on 25 Oct 2015 at 9:42 pmJas

    “I trust that to whatever extent a man denies the truth, he will find himself denied, if he willfully chooses to deny it. That’s simply a matter of fairness.”

    Your truth or the one that is sought here?

  294. on 26 Oct 2015 at 6:43 pmRay

    Jas,

    Do you really believe that a man may deny Christ and not be denied by him? I’m certain that the apostle Peter was miserable after his denials, worse than a carnal man before any extent of conversion.

  295. on 26 Oct 2015 at 7:47 pmJas

    Ray
    There are so many things that can be denied.
    1.Jesus did not fill the requirement to be the offspring of Eve
    2.Jesus did not fill the requirement to be the offspring of Abraham
    3.Jesus did not fill the requirement to be the offspring of David
    4.Jesus did not fill the requirement to be the offspring of Judah.
    5.Jesus came into existance in the flesh.
    6.Jesus ded
    7.Jesus was resurrected from the Dead.
    8.Jesus was the prophet like Moses who came from the Israelites brethern.
    9. Jesus was an Israelite .
    10. Jesus was declared the Son of God by the resurrection of the dead.

    Should I let a few hard to understand verses remove all these facts which I can not deny.

    You have stated in many words that everyone here will be denied by Jesus if we don’t follow what you claim as truth. I flat out do not understand how you have been allowed to post your boasting for almost eight years.

  296. on 26 Oct 2015 at 11:59 pmRay

    Simple and basic reading skills reveal that God did indeed create everything by Jesus Christ according to the scriptures. He had a genetic connection all the way back to Adam and Eve just as we all do. The Lord’s genetic connection to the flesh which could be traced all the way back to Adam (if we had all the genealogical information) was through his mother Mary. Having been with the Father in the beginning, in the form of God, (who is Spirit) he (by way of the Holy Spirit) began a new existence once conceived in his mother’s womb.
    We are all the offspring of Adam and Eve according to the flesh, and the offspring of God through faith in Christ, as many as are born of the Spirit of God through faith. That faith is all about Jesus.

  297. on 27 Oct 2015 at 1:41 amRay

    Correction. I believe we do have the genealogical information on Jesus (through Mary’s genealogy, which I believe is given in Matthew 1) by combining Matt 1 and Luke 3, which takes us all the way back to Adam.

    The best explanation (in my opinion) I have heard is the Mary’s father’s name was Joseph, same name has her husband’s. (see Matt 1:16 where it says “husband”.)

    The reason Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation (see Col 1) is because by him were all things created.

    So maybe we should ask…firstborn what?….Son, right? So Jesus was the Son of God back when he created, right? To every creature in existence, to every creature ever created, Jesus is the firstborn. (the Son of God)

  298. on 27 Oct 2015 at 9:35 amJas

    Ray
    So now you are claiming Jesus owed a part of his existence to Mary and her gene pool ,if Mary was his biological mother then half of Jesus did not Pre exist. No wonder he never came before this.
    Quite a flip flop from you saying it would be absurd that the Creator”would depend on human beings for the beginning of his existence. ”
    What is absurd is God giving Prophecies about the seed of humans bringing about the generation of Jesus while never mentioning he already existed.

  299. on 27 Oct 2015 at 11:24 pmRay

    Jas,

    By your reasoning then, let’s suppose because of all of your genetic material, you will have no existence after this earthly life. But if you miss heaven, you can’t blame it on your gene pool.

    Long before Jesus came into this world in the flesh through the divine conception, the Psalmist wrote of how God spoke to him, meaning that he did in fact exist at that time. Learn from him and don’t put your trust in men.

  300. on 27 Oct 2015 at 11:43 pmRay

    Isaiah 5:20,21
    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

    Prov 30:4
    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    My guess is God the Father, and his Son’s name is Jesus.

    Is there anything in Prov 30:4 that would suggest that God did not have a son at that time? Nothing that I can see.

  301. on 28 Oct 2015 at 9:21 amJas

    Ray
    This is a great example of a hard to understand verse. First thing you must do is seek the historical and cultural context of the age. At the time of this writing Israel(Jacob}and Ephraim had been called God’s Firstborn by God himself and Solomon Was called God’s Son by God Himself.
    I believe it is speaking of Solomon as the Davidic Kingship which 900 years later could be applied to Jesus when he came into existance ,the jews thought Israel.

    “By your reasoning then, let’s suppose because of all of your genetic material, you will have no existence after this earthly life. But if you miss heaven, you can’t blame it on your gene pool.”

    Ray if you intent is to offend me you must try harder than this. You will not determine who Jesus denies!!!

  302. on 28 Oct 2015 at 9:12 pmRay

    Proverbs 30:4 is so simple. How could anyone who reads it not know it’s talking about God and his Son? Though it may be about more, at it’s very least it’s talking about God and his Son who came into this world by Mary of Israel. How could anyone miss it?

    I think of the man born blind who could not see Jesus, yet he was healed of him, and when he saw him, he did not know who he was, though he had testified of him and his healing power. Yet when he heard the Lord testify as to who he is, he believed.

    John 9:39
    And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

  303. on 28 Oct 2015 at 9:32 pmJas

    Proverbs 30:4 is so simple. How could anyone who reads it not know it’s talking about God and his Son? Though it may be about more, at it’s very least it’s talking about God and his Son who came into this world by Mary of Israel. How could anyone miss it?

    Ray
    Proverbs was written some 900 years before Jesus
    You ask “Is there anything in Prov 30:4 that would suggest that God did not have a son at that time? Nothing that I can see.”
    I gave you 3 possibilities excluding Jesus at that time of that writing and allowed for a prophesized one.
    Yes God had a Son at that time ,2 at firstborn status who were dead at that time and one who was alive. Unless you want to call God a liar.
    Ray you might need to do a little research before asking a question answered atleast 3 times in the OT.
    And you make reference that I am BLIND!!!!!!!!!!

  304. on 29 Oct 2015 at 8:08 amRay

    Jas,

    You say you see. Therefore your sin remains.

  305. on 29 Oct 2015 at 9:16 amJas

    Ray
    The Word of God reveals many sinful acts in me yet not a single one exist that you condemn me and others here by. There is absolutely no command to belief Jesus pre existed, that Jesus is God but there are commands to the contrary .
    By what spirit do you condemn?

  306. on 29 Oct 2015 at 6:19 pmRay

    Jas,

    I know of no commandment that tells Christians to not tell the truth about Jesus, when some promote lies which are contrary to the truth
    about him.

  307. on 29 Oct 2015 at 6:24 pmRay

    If a man says he sees but he does not, is he telling the truth?

  308. on 29 Oct 2015 at 6:34 pmJas

    Ray
    If you think God lied about His Firstborns and His Son Solomon have your Savior accuse God as he did before the world was.

  309. on 29 Oct 2015 at 6:48 pmRay

    Jas,

    Jesus is my Savior. He did not accuse God before he made the worlds. (as you suggest)
    He simply made the world according to the rule, order, and will of God, according to what he was shown, it seems to me.

  310. on 29 Oct 2015 at 6:50 pmRay

    Jas,

    Do you really believe Jesus is some other God, other than the Father?
    The Bible says he is the same as God.

  311. on 29 Oct 2015 at 7:04 pmJas

    Ray
    I understand you use the name Jesus and apply it to the god of this age.
    Yes satan was everything before the world was(Ez28:12) but sin was found in him so he lost his firstborn status . But Glory be to the Most High when he set into motion a plan to find another firstborn in humanity.

  312. on 29 Oct 2015 at 7:25 pmJas

    Ray
    Yes the real Jesus said he was a father,actually father of lies.
    so yes your Jesus is the god of this age and the father of lies

  313. on 30 Oct 2015 at 7:54 pmRay

    Jas,

    Before Satan ever was, Jesus was. He created him along with all the angels. Satan fell into sin and was cast down to earth. Satan is not the firstborn of creation. He never was. He is a liar and the father of lies. Those who lie along with him do not know God. Jesus is the firstborn of creation.

  314. on 30 Oct 2015 at 8:18 pmJas

    Ray
    I understand your Jesus existed before the real Jesus which you have made your Adversary (Satan). Only the Devil would claim he was equal to the Most High.
    What Lucifer can not understand is he will never regain his Firstborn Status because God has appointed the MAN Jesus his New Firstborn .
    Ray please tell him next time you talk.

  315. on 31 Oct 2015 at 8:35 amRay

    Jas,

    Jesus is not my adversary. He is for my good. If I do that which is pleasing in his sight, he is not my enemy. Jesus always told the truth about himself, and he always will. He will not mislead anyone. He is the truth. There is no darkness in him. When he speaks, he speaks that which is the Father’s will. He is the wisdom of God to us. He and the Father are one. He is everything that God is. God is what he is, and he is what God is. He is that I AM, and it’s not robbery to say so.
    Jesus doesn’t take anything away from God. He is not a thief, but is a rewarder of righteousness. He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him. If we ask him for a fish, he will not give us a stone. Jesus is pure light and love, through and through. He is eternal life.

    See him as God is, because he is.

    Lucifer was never the firstborn. Jesus was first. He is the firsborn of all creation. Everything, visible and invisible of the creation of God was made by him. (see Col 1)

    If you have been a Christian very long, you should have known these things.

  316. on 31 Oct 2015 at 9:02 amJas

    Ray
    The real Jesus did not see equality with God as something to be grasp , it was satan that did not think it was robbery. You follow a false translation.
    Jesus was appointed first born because the original was found with sin. This is the context of the whole bible starting with Adam who was appointed firstborn but also was found with sin.
    You have allowed satan to convince you he is equally God ,something the real Jesus would never allow. Fact is you follow another Jesus .
    Ray I have been a Christian for over 50 years but only a true believer in the real Jesus for the last 10 years. So for 40 years I was deceived like you.

  317. on 31 Oct 2015 at 10:47 amRay

    Jesus in reality, being with the Father in heaven, before, during, and after the creation, knew that he might rightfully and lawfully remain in his majesty, as the Father is, being with him, and remain there, but instead of doing that, he took upon himself our form, and came into this world in the flesh, becoming a servant to do the Father’s will.

    I don’t believe this is something he had to do. He was not forced to do it. Who could ever accuse him of anything? Who would ever dare? I believe he legally could have remained in the form of God, ruling with the Father over all he created by the power of God. It wouldn’t have been robbery.

    For the sins of mankind, mankind was fully deserving of death and eternal damnation. Yet we, while we were in our sins, Jesus came to save us.

    I imagine the Father let him know that he didn’t have to do this, that he didn’t have to come into this world, but it pleased the Father that he did.

  318. on 31 Oct 2015 at 10:54 amRay

    Jesus didn’t have to come to save us but he did, and do you know why? It’s because he IS God. (discern this. He is as the Father himself is.)

    This was a hearing test, with the answer given. How well did you do?

  319. on 31 Oct 2015 at 10:56 amRay

    And I suppose there is a sense in which we can say that Jesus had to do it, do you know why? It’s because he is the love of God.

  320. on 31 Oct 2015 at 11:06 amJas

    Ray
    Your Jesus did exist with God till sin was found in him. Ever since he has sought the Throne of God and by becoming the Jesus of NT he has accomplished this in deception by reducing God to equality with a man. Satan thinks by deceiving the whole world into following him under the name of Jesus he has exalted himself as God of the Universe but soon God will deal with him and his false ministers of righteousness who gave you this deception. Fear not because God will hold you blameless for believing this great deception and you will be judged by your deeds as also multitudes.

  321. on 31 Oct 2015 at 3:41 pmRay

    Jas,

    Again I say there is no sin in Jesus Christ. He is not the Devil as you seem to suppose. He is the son of God. God gave his Son the throne and he will rule in it with the Father forever.
    your perception of Jesus having never existed before his mother Mary, is false. He has always been with God the Father. He was in the world by the Spirit, but the world did not know him. He came unto his own and his own received him not. (Have you never read this?)
    But to as many as received him he gave them eternal life.

  322. on 31 Oct 2015 at 4:03 pmRay

    The Jesus of the Bible clearly pre-existed his fleshly body which developed in the womb of Mary his mother. Known by the scripture as the Word of God, he is testified by it as being the maker of all the creation of God.

  323. on 31 Oct 2015 at 4:28 pmRay

    Here’s a verse from Isaiah that is speaking about Jesus, who at the very time this verse was written, was seated with the Father in his throne:

    Isaiah 33:22
    For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king; he will save us.

  324. on 31 Oct 2015 at 5:10 pmJas

    Ray
    Your Jesus was found with the sin of pride so much that he thought himself worthy to sit upon God’s throne. I realize you don’t know that your Jesus is not the real Jesus but you could shed that deception with just a little research. I do not condemn you because you are deceived like you condemn others .
    Fact is everytime you proclaim your Jesus here everyone knows you are preaching another Jesus.

  325. on 31 Oct 2015 at 5:16 pmJas

    Ray
    Actually Isaiah 33:22 says
    For the YHWH is our judge, the YHWH is our lawgiver, the YHWH is our king; he will save us.
    It speaks nothing of Jesus , you just won’t do any research at all

  326. on 31 Oct 2015 at 7:13 pmRay

    Jas,

    Read Psalm 36:9. If the light of the gospel is hid, it is hid from those that are perishing.

  327. on 31 Oct 2015 at 8:12 pmRay

    Jas,

    Jesus ascended to God’s throne, where he was before, after he overcame Satan, even unto the death of the cross, and he is worthy.

  328. on 01 Nov 2015 at 12:00 amJas

    Ray
    The real Jesus ascended to the right hand of God’s Throne ,your Jesus still seeks God’s Throne. Please tell your Jesus he will fail.

  329. on 01 Nov 2015 at 4:27 amRay

    Jas,

    Jesus is at the throne of God as I have told you. He was even there before he entered into this world through his mother Mary.

    Jas, If you ever did anything by Jesus Christ, Did you know that he existed then, and have you never read how God created all that is, by him?

  330. on 01 Nov 2015 at 11:50 amJas

    Ray
    I understand that your Jesus has told you he is God .He has deceived Kings ,Nations and even a multitude of Israel long before he took over christianity . He has come in many names and has sent multitudes of false prophets .
    But we are here to discuss the real Jesus who was appointed firstborn receiving credit of a firstborn son which are the things that confuse you because lack of knowledge.

  331. on 01 Nov 2015 at 1:29 pmRay

    Jas,

    Obviously you haven’t been doing your Biblical studies. You say you’ve been a Christian for about 50 years now? Have you never studied the Bible?

    Study the word “glory” and notice each time the word is used that whatever manifested the glory existed at the time the glory appeared.

    This is what my Jesus said, and it’s recorded in John 17:5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Obviously, Jesus is speaking here of being with the Father before the word was made, existing in him, having his being in God, being therefore full of his glory, living and being in the form of God, being clothed with power from on high, living and moving in that eternal light and life, having a purpose, having his living, having his all in all, in God.

    Or have you never read John 17:24, which also speaks of the same glory? This he spoke having known this. (see John 17:25)

    Jesus never deceived me. He deceives no man, though you seem to suggest that he has and that he did. He has not and he does not.

    Sir, it is you who deceives. Repent and be saved, in Jesus’ name.
    No liars will be allowed access to heaven.

  332. on 01 Nov 2015 at 1:45 pmRay

    See Merle Haggard, What A Friend We Have In Jesus, you tube.

    Jesus is real. He’s not an “imaginary friend”.

    Ask Jesus if he existed before the world was, or if he made it all.

  333. on 01 Nov 2015 at 2:07 pmJas

    Ray2
    Try using the context of the whole passage instead of proof texting. Are you the one who has deceived Ray?

    John 17:24 does not speak of pre existence , It speaks of Love as the glory same type of glory extended to the disciples when Jesus sent them into the world. Of course God loved Jesus the moment he set into motion the Plan to bring about his existence in the offspring of Eve,Abraham,David and his father Joseph.
    Yours and Ray’s Jesus is none other than the one who has sought God’s Throne since he was found with sin and was refused as firstborn.
    For the last time quit coming here condemning, I hold Ray blameless because he is just deceived and you I don’t know.

  334. on 01 Nov 2015 at 2:41 pmJas

    Ray2
    Why don’t you post under your own name, could it be you were banned many years ago?

  335. on 01 Nov 2015 at 4:18 pmJas

    Acts 2:33
    “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

    Acts 5:31
    “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    1 Peter 3:22
    who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

    Ray and Ray2
    When was Jesus exalted to the right hand of God? After angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

    Luke 22:69
    “But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.”

    Certainly not before this point unless you make the real Jesus a liar.
    So you can come here claiming your Jesus pre existed because your preaching another Jesus but we know better to buy into the deception.

  336. on 01 Nov 2015 at 4:36 pmRay

    Jas,

    You really are lost. Not only do you not recognize Jesus, but you think I am someone else also. Deception has overcome you. Repent and be saved, in the name of Jesus.

    As far as I can tell, (and this is simply common sense) everywhere someone or something manifested some type of glory, it or they, existed at the time the glory was made known.

    This is how we know Jesus was with the Father before the world was made. He had his glory with the Father. He said so, and he does not lie. Men lie, but he does not. Men deceive, but he does not. Jesus remains true, and he remains true to his word. He speaks what the Father gives him to speak.

    Are you calling God a liar? (see I John 1:8)

  337. on 01 Nov 2015 at 4:57 pmJas

    Ray
    It is really not that hard to tell you have someone else writing things, wording and style are a sharp contrast. You are so very deceitful .

    Like I said you preach another Jesus, one that has being seeking to overcome God Throne by deception.

  338. on 01 Nov 2015 at 5:56 pmJas

    Rays
    The real Jesus said your god was a liar from the beginning and was the father of all lies. So actually the real Jesus beat me to it,that is calling your god a liar.

  339. on 01 Nov 2015 at 9:44 pmRay

    Jas,

    Jesus, whom I tell you had glory with the Father before the world was just as I have said.

    Did you study the word “glory” from the Bible, and if so, did you notice that each time the word is used, the glory that was manifest, was because the person or thing that showed it, did indeed exist at the time of it’s being manifest?
    Jesus, whom I tell you of is indeed the truth.

    What is it about the truth that so offends you sir?

  340. on 01 Nov 2015 at 9:52 pmRay

    Jas,

    Jesus, whom I tell you of, indeed had his glory with the Father in the beginning, just like he said in the gospels.

    Do you just come on here to troll against the Lord, and if so, why?

  341. on 01 Nov 2015 at 9:58 pmJas

    Ray2
    17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, so that they can see my glory that you gave me because you loved me before the creation of the world .

    The Glory was love the same Glory I gave my Son when I first spoke of having a Son. A full 18 years before his Birth. I even spoke of how great he would be, Glory that was not misgiven.
    Nothing about the truth offends me, matter of fact you worshipping another Jesus does not offend me but your lies do

  342. on 01 Nov 2015 at 10:44 pmJas

    Ray
    You are the one coming preaching a different Jesus than what anyone in this ministry believes condemning everyone here unless they believe your lies.
    Who is the troll?

  343. on 02 Nov 2015 at 8:42 pmRay

    Jas,

    Your son did not have that glory with you. Find a life in Jesus.

  344. on 02 Nov 2015 at 8:50 pmRay

    Jas,

    Did your son ever make anything long before he was found to be in the womb of his mother?

    Long before Jesus was found to be in the womb of Mary, he made all that is. This he did thousands of years before he entered into Mary’s womb. This is what the Bible teaches, and it is true.

  345. on 02 Nov 2015 at 8:56 pmJas

    Ray
    Not only did God glorify the real Jesus when he set into motion the plan to bring about his existence God also glorified him when he gave prophecies to Eve,Abraham ,David and every Prophet which spoke of him coming.
    Ray quit condemning me by stating I have no life in Jesus.

  346. on 02 Nov 2015 at 9:04 pmJas

    “Long before Jesus was found to be in the womb of Mary, he made all that is. This he did thousands of years before he entered into Mary’s womb. This is what the Bible teaches, and it is true.”

    Ray
    Jesus was only accounted creation, just as all that been accounted firstborn yet was not the oldest son. Isaac, Joseph, Ephraim and David were all accounted firstborn status yet received the glory of the oldest son.
    You really need to do a little research on biblical culture so you wont have to be so very confused anymore.

  347. on 03 Nov 2015 at 12:31 amRay

    John 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    So what was the glory Jesus had with God before the world was? It was being clothed in God the Father, dwelling in him, and he in God, with all that the Father is, all the power of God. This is how Jesus made the world, and how the world was created by God.

    Jas,
    What are you saying when you say that “Jesus was only accounted creation”? What in the world does that even mean? It doesn’t make any sense at all.

    Are you saying that God only accounted in his word that Jesus made everything that was created by God, but really did not? That would be calling God a liar.

    God is not a liar. His word is true. God created all things by Jesus Christ who was at the time with him, being clothed with all the power of God, God in him, and he in God. Being one with the Father, he did as the Father showed him, and by the power of God the creation came into being, by Jesus Christ, who manifested the power of God, doing the works God gave him to do. This is how the world came to be, Jesus being the power of God.

    Certainly God may look at Israel, and call the entire nation his firstborn. He may certainly look at the early Church and call them first fruits. But to misuse the scripture to find a way to rob Jesus of his glory, saying he did not do the works that he did, is wrong. It is sin.

    Jas, just repent of sin when you see yourself in it. Or, would you rather become lost as happened to the son of perdition? (see John 17:12)

    Here is John 17:5 from the 1599 Geneva, which has a coma where the verse in my KJV did not:

    And now glorify me, thou Father, with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Jesus is now in that same glory.

  348. on 03 Nov 2015 at 1:28 amRay

    John 17: 25
    O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

    Yes, Jesus knew the Father, even before the world was made. He was sent from where he was in heaven, to become manifest in the flesh in this world, to make God known, and to make atonement for sin.

    No doubt that the Holy Spirit brought back to his remembrance whatever the will of God was for that moment. Jesus knew that he knew the Father. What reality of heaven must have been given him, things he had experienced of glory with God in the thousands of years past!

    To understand the gospel we need the teachings of Jesus, who explains the gospel.

  349. on 03 Nov 2015 at 10:05 amRay

    There are several reasons we should look at whatever Jesus said at this crucial time, just before his death on the cross. How often did he pray something in a way that it would be heard by his disciples? I don’t know, but this is what is happening in this part of the gospel of John.

    Secondly, since this is so near to the cross, when he will be leaving this world, to go unto the Father, shouldn’t we suppose that this is where he will make the important parts of the gospel known?

    Writers of anything often will put their major and most important points that they wish to make clear, at the end. I often like to look for the point at the end.

    It’s very clear, by the things the Lord repeated, that he emphasized his existence with the Father from the beginning. When things are repeated, let’s consider them to be important.

    Yes, he could have taught these things after his resurrection, but perhaps Now, now was the best time.

  350. on 03 Nov 2015 at 10:54 amJas

    Ray2
    Jesus was given the status of Firstborn to replace the original Firstborn because in him was found sin. This is a very common concept in the bible. With this status comes the glory of the actually Firstborn because he gave up the right. This accounts the real Jesus with the reason for creation. Adam was to be this replacement for Firstborn but failed because of sin.
    No accounting Jesus Firstborn does not make God a liar because appointing Isaac,Joseph, Ephraim ,David and Solomon Firstborn is a common concept.

    “Jas, just repent of sin when you see yourself in it”

    Ray again quit condemning , your Jesus has no control over Salvation but will be locked up during The real Jesus’ reign and then destroyed after. Do you really think Satan would deceive the whole world in the end days by using his name ?

  351. on 03 Nov 2015 at 3:55 pmRay

    Jas,

    Jesus was given the status of firstborn because by him every living creature was made. (see Col 1:16) Just as the builder of the house has more honor than the house itself, this honor was given to Jesus in the beginning, as the world was being made.

    Not Adam, nor any other creature could or would ever replace the Lord’s position of firstborn, because by him all things were created, that are in heaven, and earth, visible and invisible. (see Col 1:16)

    Jesus, being the Firstborn over all creation, being their maker, as well as being the redeemer of all mankind, has this honor not only because it was God’s divine plan, but also his execution of it, according to his power which was at work within Christ, and by him, according to his obedience.

    As long as you are preaching against his existence as Firstborn, according to the Bible’s teaching of it, and working to deceive people into thinking Jesus never existed in glory with the Father, or that he didn’t bring about the creation according to the will and power of God in the beginning, while it is plainly set in order before you, in such a way that you may understand clearly, you are yet in your sins.

  352. on 03 Nov 2015 at 3:59 pmRay

    John 17:20
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

  353. on 03 Nov 2015 at 5:50 pmJas

    Ray2
    Your lack of biblical context is the source of your confusion. You do not even grasp the idea of the status of Firstborn. It has to do with rank not time.
    Isaac did not pre exist Ishmael yet was given Firstborn status,Joseph did not pre exist his brothers yet was given Firstborn status, Ephraim did not pre exist his brother yet was given Firstborn status, David did not pre exist his brothers yet was given Firstborn status.
    All these receive the Glory of their oldest brother.
    The Real Jesus being said he was the First it just an honor when being appointed Firstborn not that he existed before.
    Everyone is still in their sins unless they are living as perfect as Jesus did. You have no idea what is or what isn’t a sin much less understand the word.
    BUT AGAIN QUIT CONDEMNING,CAN YOU NOT DISCUSS WITHOUT CONDEMNING PEOPLE TO HELL.
    Ray2 be honest and post for yourself under your own name.
    PEOPLE HAVE BEEN BANNED HERE FOR FAR LESS.

  354. on 03 Nov 2015 at 7:40 pmRay

    Jas,

    When Jesus in the beginning made the world by the power of God the Father, it was about who he was, the Firstborn of all creation. It was about his honor being about who he was and what he had done. He had been the maker of the heaven and the earth by the power of God, (thus God giving him that title) God working out his creation, his creative work by his Son, whom we now know as Jesus, who is also known as the Word of God.

    Jas,

    It is your lack of Biblical context that is the source of your problem, not mine. What you ascribe to me is revealing what your problem is.
    You are telling all of us here what your problems are.

    Look again at the context of Col 1:16.

    Woe unto those who put evil for good and good for evil. That looks like a promise of God to me.

  355. on 03 Nov 2015 at 7:53 pmRay

    Jas,

    I know of no verse of scripture that calls Isaac the firstborn. Do you have one?

  356. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:03 pmJas

    Ray
    First thing is Jesus is Firstborn OVER ALL CREATION. You are using a faulty translation. Yes Jesus was appointed Firstborn which is a rank not point in time. As it has be shown to you Firstborn Status can be given to the Youngest and also to even grandsons . This does not mean they existed before the oldest it means they were chosen over them most of the time because the older committed a sin.
    Ez 28 says Lucifer was perfect before his sin thus was castaway as Firstborn . Adam was created to replace Lucifer as Firstborn but also sinned which void his Firstborn Status. It was not uncommon for the appointed Firstborn to be credited the great things the original Firstborn was a part of.
    Of course we have other ways to understand these difficult passages ,Ones that owe his existance to his genealogy ,ones that show he was appointed the Son of God by the resurrection of the dead ,plus dozens upon dozens more your prooftext bible just ignores.
    Ray and Ray2 you are very confused and poorly researched

  357. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:05 pmRay

    Jas,

    Do you understand that Jesus being in God and with God the Father at the time of creation, and God creating all things by him, gave Jesus a rank above all others, even as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself?

    Yes, the builder of the house did come before the house, but is it because of time that the builder has more honor than the house in your opinion, or is it because he not only pre-existed the house, but because he also was the builder of it?

  358. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:06 pmJas

    I know of no verse of scripture that calls Isaac the firstborn. Do you have one?

    Ray
    It is translated “Only Begotten Son” which We know he was not even the Oldest Son.

  359. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:06 pmRay

    Jas,

    If you like coming on here with all this stuff and letting other see how stupid you are, just keep it coming. I think we all are beginning to enjoy this.

  360. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:08 pmRay

    Isaac was the only son of Abraham and Sarah. I know of no verse saying that he was the firstborn. Not even his name means firstborn, apparently. He was the only son of the promise that God gave to Abraham.

  361. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:10 pmRay

    Jesus is called the firstborn of creation because he is the maker of every creature. See Col 1:16. No reason to take it out of it’s context.

    Do you see that Jas?

  362. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:15 pmRay

    Quite simply put, Jesus is the firstborn of every creature because by him all things were created, according to all that is listed in Col 1, and because of all reasons given in Col 1, for by him all things consist.

    Verse 17 of Col 1 is likely why I heard sung, “Who watched the sheep”. I heard Johnny Cash sing this. It’s a song about the first Christmas, the birth of Christ. You might find it on you tube.

  363. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:17 pmRay

    The song is called Who Kept The Sheep.

  364. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:33 pmRay

    Something that may be of interest here is something I found on Wikipedia, which said, “…the anglicized name Isaac is a transliteration of the Hebrew term Yishaq which literally means He laughs/ will laugh.”

    According to Gen 21:3, it was Abraham who gave him that name.

  365. on 03 Nov 2015 at 8:49 pmRay

    I should add that according to Gen 17:19 it was the Lord who told Abraham to call his name Isaac.

    So I wonder, Did God decide to laugh because he knew Sarah would?

  366. on 04 Nov 2015 at 9:37 amRay

    It seems to me that some people react so violently to the Trinity doctrine that it causes them to reject the truth of scripture.

    If anything causes you to reject the scripture, whatever it is, I suggest you forget about it, and just learn to say what the scripture says.

    In Hebrews 1:2 it talks about how the world was made by Jesus, (the Son of God) and in Hebrews 1:6 it talks about the firstbegotten being brought into the world.

    We need Christians who are willing to stand up and say what the scripture says.

  367. on 04 Nov 2015 at 9:53 amJas

    Ray and Ray2
    This is a Unitarian Blog with some of the best researchers you will find.
    When you state we reject the truth in the scriptures you offend everyone in this ministry and others united in the Truth that God is One God and Jesus came in the Flesh.

  368. on 04 Nov 2015 at 8:15 pmRay

    Jas,

    Instead of trying to show us all yer wonderful research, if that research prohibits you from confessing what the word says about Jesus being the maker of the heaven and earth, it’s really not such good research is it?

    We need Christians who will say what the Word says. Yes indeed Jesus is the maker of heaven and earth, which is the main reason given by the apostle Paul in more than one of his writings in the scripture, where he is called first, above everything. It’s because by him they were made.

    And, yes, by the way, that means he did indeed exist before his conception in the womb of Mary.

    You need not be offended, you just need to repent.

  369. on 04 Nov 2015 at 9:14 pmJas

    “366 Ray
    It seems to me that some people react so violently to the Trinity doctrine that it causes them to reject the truth of scripture.

    If anything causes you to reject the scripture, whatever it is, I suggest you forget about it, and just learn to say what the scripture says.

    359 Ray
    Jas,

    If you like coming on here with all this stuff and letting other see how stupid you are, just keep it coming. ”

    Ray
    So you are saying everyone in the Unitarian Faith rejects the Truth in the Scripture and all the research we show just shows how STUPID we are. You have also basically said the Unitarian faith will exclude us from Heaven.

  370. on 04 Nov 2015 at 9:55 pmRay

    Jas,

    Thank you for answering all our questions. Yes you prefer to serve religious men rather than the truth you attack.

    Yes, it’s true Jesus did in fact exist before creation, and he is the one who made it all, according to the gospel. This is what some people who call themselves Christians deny. They have opposed it and attacked it, being against it.

    Rather than repent, they choose to try to clothe themselves in what appears to them to be their good works, and even those things are the things that prevent them from receiving the truth.

  371. on 04 Nov 2015 at 10:09 pmRay

    Jas,

    If you don’t want to hear the truth about yourself, stop attacking the truth. I never said “Unitarian faith excludes people from heaven.”
    That is false accusation on your part. Repentance is required to get clean of it.

    Some people think their doctrine is their faith. It is not. It is simply their doctrine. It isn’t faith. There’s a difference. Only Jesus can get a man into heaven. One day we will all meet him, or not enter heaven at all. It’s up to him who gets into heaven.

  372. on 04 Nov 2015 at 10:14 pmRay

    If anyone here sees some plain truth of scripture, but he can’t confess it or profess it, consider whether or not you have a problem. Consider whether or not something is wrong. We as Christians should learn to say what the Word says. Do you remember the lesson about the mother hind (deer)? Some here might know what I’m talking about.

  373. on 04 Nov 2015 at 10:35 pmJas

    “Sir, it is you who deceives. Repent and be saved, in Jesus’ name.
    No liars will be allowed access to heaven.”

    Ray2
    Do not even understand the context of yours and Rays statements.
    I also see you are now admitting there are atleast 2 of you writing under the Name Ray something that was flat out denied. Are you the leader of the group which has caused divisions in churches?

  374. on 05 Nov 2015 at 1:07 amRay

    Jas,

    Why do you come on here with all of this nonsense? Who is Ray2?

    As near as I can figure out, it’s a figment of your imagination. I’ve been on this blog for years, and have never seen another Ray on here as far as I can remember. I have never been blocked from this blog.

    Are you saying that two different writers named Ray made the same statements or what? This makes no sense to me. I don’t know what you are talking about.

    If you wish to quote me at least write out the context so we can see what you are talking about. A simple statement with no context posted can easily serve to cause confusion. Is this deliberate?

    You do understand that the scripture teaches that there will be no liars allowed in heaven don’t you? Heaven is not a place for liars, or thieves, or for anything unclean to flourish.

    Where do I admit there are two people writing under one name?

    If you wish to make the accusation, show us where it is that I admitted to two people writing under my name. I know of no such thing happening here. No one uses my keyboard but me.

    Hope this clarifies things.

    May I say sir, that you are talking like a drunken man, and I do not believe the problem is either alcohol or drugs?

  375. on 05 Nov 2015 at 1:15 amRay

    I don’t find it strange at all for a Christian to understand that both Col 1, and Hebrews 1, speak of Jesus being the maker of everything in the creation of God, and to encourage anyone who can read it for themselves and see it also, to speak the same thing as the Word teaches.

    This is a good thing for Christians to do. I’m not asking anyone to come up with some new and strange doctrine. I’m just saying that it’s good to eat the things God gives us to eat, that we may grow thereby.

    This should not pose any problem for a Christian of 50 years, even if it was only in the last 10 years that he has been a true one. This I say because I believe that was one’s testimony here not long ago.

  376. on 05 Nov 2015 at 9:36 amJas

    370 Ray
    Jas,

    Thank you for answering all our questions. Yes you prefer to serve religious men rather than the truth you attack.”

    Ray
    Do you not read before copying and pasting your leaders comments to me? He came clean why don’t you?

  377. on 05 Nov 2015 at 8:45 pmRay

    Jas,

    I have no idea what you are talking about. I neither copy nor paste. I don’t know how to do that. What leaders are you referring to? I have no leaders that I know of, nor do I know what those comments might be. Who is it that came clean?

    You seem to me to be one who is talking in his sleep, and when people talk in their sleep, do they ever make sense?

  378. on 05 Nov 2015 at 9:02 pmJas

    Ray
    I provided the statement from comment 370,here it is again

    370 Ray
    Jas,

    Thank you for answering all our questions.

    Are you claiming you have no knowledge of it? I realize it was just a slip up on your partners part but you posted it from your ip address. I can’t even imagine someone who has been on internet for atleast 8 years doesn’t know how to Copy and Paste.
    UNBELIEVABLE !!!

  379. on 05 Nov 2015 at 9:08 pmRay

    Jas,

    Again I have no idea what you are talking about. What partner? I have no partner. What is an ip address? Truly I don’t know how to copy or paste. Not everyone is tech savy. I don’t even know how to use a cell phone. When I borrow one from someone at work I ask them if they will dial the number. I have little interest in electronic devices. Each of us are different. Ask me about changing ball joints on old vehicles, and that I could tell you about.

  380. on 05 Nov 2015 at 11:43 pmJas

    Ray
    Almost all your confusion can be cured here unless you are afraid to be exposed to the truth.

    http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html

  381. on 06 Nov 2015 at 9:30 amRay

    Getting back to the matter at hand, I find it odd how a Christian can join a Biblical Unitarian camp, and go so far to promote Biblical Unitarianism, that he will not be able to simply say what the scripture teaches about Jesus being the maker of everything in the creation, and him being with God the Father in the beginning.

    How is that? Is it idolatry?

    I’ve heard it said that “The Trinity is idolatry.”, but what prevents a man from simply saying what the scripture clearly says about Jesus?

    We have the first part of John’s gospel, Col 1, and the first part of Hebrews 1, as part of the New Testament, which is certainly clear enough, and then they want to suggest that they are some sort of “Leadership” and have the “wisdom” to clear up (get rid of) the truth (the Word) they call “confusion”.

    Is it OK if I laugh now, or do I have to wait?

  382. on 06 Nov 2015 at 10:26 amJas

    Ray
    You did not even look at resource I posted, If you did you would find it is fully based upon on what scriptures teach. You can not just use a few verses without using the rest of the bible for context. Fact is the evidence for Unitarianism outweighs any Jesus is God doctrine by 90 to 1. No verse is ignored but is thoroughly researched using the whole bible,history and culture to understand context.

    How can Worshipping the Creator and giving honor to His Anointed ever be considered Idolatry ? Do you understand the meaning or were you just condemning Unitarians again?

  383. on 06 Nov 2015 at 5:55 pmRay

    Jas,

    So you want to play politics is that it? How is it you can’t even honor Christ by saying that he is the maker of all of the creation, or that he existed with the Father long before he came into the womb of Mary his mother?

    Please give us all here an answer.

    See Ray Stevens- Mr. President- Mr. President you tube.

  384. on 06 Nov 2015 at 5:57 pmRay

    Jas,

    You say you honor Christ, but look at your above posts and see how you have dishonored him.

  385. on 06 Nov 2015 at 6:46 pmJas

    Ray
    Actually I give Honor to the Messiah by recognizing his APPOINTMENT as the Son of God by the Resurrection of the Dead, by being APPOINTED Firstborn OVER all Creation and by ascending to the Right Hand of God AFTER having angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
    NONE OF THIS CAN BE SAID OF YOUR JESUS because if what you say was true he had all this from beginning .
    It may be true I dishonor your Jesus, but then again God says to resist him.

  386. on 06 Nov 2015 at 7:35 pmRay

    Yes, Jas, Jesus from the beginning had the pleasure of making all there is, (see John 1, Col 1, and Heb 1) God giving him this place of honor as his, for from the beginning, before the world was made, Jesus, the Son of God did indeed belong to him.

    This is the Christ, and the truth you dishonor.

    Jas,
    Why would you think that you could convince Trinitarians that their doctrines are wrong, and you yourself refuse to simply say what the scripture clearly and plainly teaches concerning the glory Jesus had with the Father from the beginning, even as the world was being made by him, who is the Word of God and was with God?

    Why would you think that anyone would pay any attention to you at all, when you can’t even do that?

    Why would you turn people away from the truth, and then try to show everyone how good you are?

    Isn’t it because you decided to go for self righteousness rather than the gospel?

    Do you consider the condition of your soul to be so much better than the blood of Christ which was shed for you? And if so, why? Because you will honor him with your lips…. sometimes?

    So I ask you again, will you simply confess what the scripture teaches about Jesus being the maker of all of creation, by the glory he had with the Father in the beginning, before you go out to “correct” everyone else of their doctrines which are true?

    See again Ray Stevens Mr. President- Mr. President.

  387. on 06 Nov 2015 at 9:49 pmJas

    Ray
    Never sought to convince you of anything, better than me have tried here. I continue this discussion this long to see you would expose who it was that leads you.
    But I never mind speaking of the truth so it certainly wasn’t a waste of time.
    Lol you have no us here ,only you and either a mouse in your pocket or your partner who said “Thank you for answering all our questions.”
    Notice the “OUR”
    I guess you now think you are Ray Stevens ?

  388. on 06 Nov 2015 at 10:19 pmRay

    Again I say Jas, you are talking like a drunken man or a man who talks in his sleep. Do people ever make any sense when they talk in their sleep? Did you ever try to reason with a drunk?

    Jas, you won’t be leading any Christian who knows what the scripture says about the Lord’s glory which he had with the Father before the world was even made. All of creation was made by him just as the scripture says, and if you will not confess that, you will not be leading any Christian who knows that, anywhere.

    A man who will not accept a certain part of scripture which others do, will not be leading them anywhere. He’s only fooling himself, being a deceiver of his own soul, and onto corruption he will go, for he has forsaken the truth whereby he was once was bought, which at one time had apprehended him, whereby he for a while once served for a time, but then was led astray.

    You live in your hypocrisy, and as long as you are comfortable there, there you will remain. You became a Pharisee. You became a false teacher, having forsaken the truth. Now, counter missionary work is your occupation. If that’s what you want, that is what you will have.

    But make no mistake here. You will not be deceiving those who know the truth about Christ being the maker of heaven and earth, just as the scripture says. For by the power of God, all that is of the creation, he made by his Son, Jesus Christ, both visible and invisible, all of creation was made by him, who is the Word of God. Therefore he has his place above every name that is named. He is the maker of us all, and he is due the honor of that. He will be glorified in the earth. He will be glorified by mankind whom he has made. They will worship him and be glad. They will not be put to shame for doing so, rather, they will be put to shame who try to deny them that truth, for the kind that go against the truth of God are thieves and robbers.

    One in Christ, will chase a thousand of them, for that is their inheritance.

  389. on 06 Nov 2015 at 10:23 pmRay

    Jas, what you guess is wrong. You are a liar and full of deceit, and there is none of that in Christ.

  390. on 06 Nov 2015 at 10:36 pmRay

    Jas, I am sure there are others watching this site, and some of them have been wondering what you are about. I trust more than just a few are finding out. You are telling us what is wrong with yourself, and thereby are giving us the answer to our questions. Yes, notice “our” here. It’s not just me.

    We are finding out that you think you have the whole truth about Jesus as far as when he began and how he received his honor about who he is, even while you refuse to accept all of the truth revealed by the scripture, and then go out to attempt to correct those who have the truth you refused. Yes, Jas, we see your hypocrisy. It’s not just me.

    We know you to be the man who has a beam in his own eye and goes out to try to correct others, thereby causing injury to others. Did you ever see the three stooges as they did carpentry work? One of them would carry a 2×4 on their shoulder and then apparently unknowingly turn and someone would get hit with it.

    Just repent and get free of it. Learn to say what the scripture teaches. Read the first few verses of John 1, Col 1, and Hebrews 1. Digest it and say what it says. Read it out loud and learn to say what it clearly says. Is that so difficult for a Christian of 50 years or so?

    But if you are not yet ready for that, determine to do one thing. Don’t go out to correct others because they say what the scripture says. Don’t go out to correct them of what you refuse to read and to say.

    Have mercy on the Church for whom Christ died.

  391. on 06 Nov 2015 at 10:37 pmJas

    Ray
    You have absolutely no Idea whats real or not real do you.

  392. on 06 Nov 2015 at 10:55 pmJas

    Ray
    Everybody on this blog uses the same resources and has come to the very same truth that YHWH our God Is One and Jesus is not God.
    Over the last eight years dozens of people have had discussions with you on these very topic. Almost everyone here has learned to just ignore you
    So no there is nobody here questioning the truth that YHWH our God Is One and Jesus is not God.
    Your little ploy to cover up you have a partner writing for you will not work. Timothy and I noticed him immediately .
    Just confess the lie ,be a man

  393. on 06 Nov 2015 at 11:59 pmRay

    Jas,
    So how is it that you having a beam in your own eye think you should go around to everyone else (who sees clearly that Jesus is the maker of us all, and that he indeed had his glory, the glory of his existence, being clothed in the glory of the Father, even as he made all that is of the creation, doing it for the Father, as the Father wanted it made)as if you know the right way, but have in fact gone your own way, refusing to see the truth that has been plainly set before your very eyes?

    How is it that you who have denied this truth, think you should go about to teach others something other than that truth, and that you should have everyone else’s support?

  394. on 07 Nov 2015 at 12:04 amRay

    Jas,

    I have no one writing for me. All that has been typed on his blog in my name has been written by me. Again you are making things like this up simply to muddy the waters, as a ploy to cover for your sins, that they might not be clearly seen by others.

    Why not just go to the cross and repent of such things instead?

    Or, is the blood of Christ something unclean in your sight, as you think yourself to be pure?

  395. on 07 Nov 2015 at 12:06 amRay

    Jas,

    Everyone here can open their Bibles and read plainly that Jesus created all that is. Why should you think that you can fool them?

  396. on 07 Nov 2015 at 12:24 amJas

    Ray
    Still refusing to be honest!
    I do not claim to be a teacher, but I will show people the facts and tell them to research for themselves . I absolutely do not condemn people to hell like you do and do not exalt myself to heaven like you do.
    Even though you worship another Jesus because of deception I feel you will be pardoned because God allowed the deception and you will be Judged by love for God’s creation.
    If you truly want the status of being exalted you need to shed all the deception or just realize you will just receive common salvation, the salvation Jesus completely secured for every human that has existed .
    Btw insults do not effect me,never has ,never will so don’t waste your time.

  397. on 07 Nov 2015 at 12:30 amJas

    Ray
    Everyone here has opened their bible ,the whole bible and thoroughly researched. This is why they ALL believe the truth that YHWH our God Is One and Jesus is not God.
    Do you not comprehend this is a Unitarian blog???

  398. on 07 Nov 2015 at 1:10 amRay

    Jas,

    Why should I think anyone will listen to misguided clowns who ignore the plain truth that Jesus is the maker of heaven and earth, and instead go some other way?

    Rather, I expect Christians will wake up out of their slumber and say, “I’m going to say what the scripture teaches about Jesus being the maker of everything, visible and invisible, and not allow myself to be led astray, or be abused, or misused for some religious politician’s selfish and carnal motives. I’m not going along with fleshy fallen corruption anymore. I’m going to be a believer instead of a politician.”

    Jas, How about taking this short quiz:
    Choose the best answer:

    In the beginning was___________.

    a. a Unitarian blog.
    b. the Word.

  399. on 08 Nov 2015 at 12:40 pmRay

    I just read John 14:23:

    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    So the Father and the Son come together unto a man such as keeps the words of Christ, and according to this book, Jesus was always with the Father, even before the world began. And when he died on the cross, he went unto the Father as he had said. And when he rose again, he came unto his disciples. And when he ascended, he went back to the Father in heaven.

    And I thought it a bit odd how John ends his gospel, except that it really is a natural closing, how he did it, but I wondered why he did not include the day of ascension.

    I suppose his interest was all about Jesus and his works and his teachings when he was with them, letting us know that he could only write so much, or that there could be no end of the books that could be written, while today, so many are thinking so much in terms of Christian doctrine, of “essentials” of faith, things such as resurrection and ascension, or maybe the ascension doesn’t rank as high as his conception, ministry, death, and resurrection.

    I suppose the reader of John’s gospel, when he comes to the end of it should naturally know where Jesus went.

  400. on 08 Nov 2015 at 4:41 pmRay

    Here’s an interesting verse that reminded me of Gen 1. See Gen 1:1-8.

    Psalm 29:10
    The Lord sitteth upon the flood; yea the Lord sitteth King forever.

    The Lord sits on his throne above all of his works which he has made, and there is a river that flows from the throne of God.

    If I was an artist I could do something with that, like maybe a painting of God’s throne way out in space, and a river meandering through space to reach the people throughout the earth. It would have to branch out in all directions.

  401. on 11 Nov 2015 at 9:33 amRay

    Here’s a verse in the KVJ:

    Acts 2:25
    For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

    Carefully notice the word “foresaw”.

    Here is the verse in the 1599 Geneva:

    Acts 2:25
    For David saith concerning him, I beheld the Lord always before me:
    for he is at my right hand, that I should not be shaken.

    And here is Psalm 16:8 in the KJV:
    I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

    Yes, Jesus was with David. Though David himself died and was buried and his body left in the grave, Jesus did come of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, and God did raise him up from the grave. David Knew that this Jesus, the Lord who was with him, the Son of God, would come to sit on his throne. (see Acts 2:30)

    Acts 2:22
    ……..miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him…
    Col 1:16
    For by him…..

  

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