951753

This Site Is No Longer Active

Check out RESTITUTIO.org for new blog entries and podcasts. Feel free to browse through our content here, but we are no longer adding new posts.


Is Christmas Pagan? (Part 2)

  

In many people’s minds, the idea that Christmas evolved from Pagan feasts is given more credence by the fact that many Christmas customs were observed as part of Pagan religion and culture. Yule logs, holly, mistletoe, and evergreen decorations all play a part in many different Pagan festivals. But does that mean that they all stem from the same source? Lights and trees, revelry and gift-giving are common to many different celebrations in many different cultures. But this doesn’t prove that they are derived from the same source. If Christians use them at Christmas, why assume they were all taken from Paganism?

Of course some Christmas customs are certainly taken from paganism. The use of the word yule and the various customs associated with it, for example, come from pagan culture. The word probably came from the Anglo-Saxon geol, which meant “feast.” It is thought that among the Anglo-Saxons, the time of the winter solstice was a time of a great feast.

But so what? Is everything that was once used by paganism centuries ago, now off limits when Christians apply them to Christmas or other Christian festivals? Are we prepared to strictly apply that to everything we do? Why can’t we use some of the same words, symbols or customs, which long ago ceased to be used in the worship of false gods? We need to remember that before pagans co-opted them centuries ago, God had given many of the things used in custom, as good gifts to be enjoyed by his people. Why then can Christians not redeem these good gifts for their use as they celebrate Christmas? In my opinion, it is sufficient to point out to people the origin of these customs, and distinguish these “winter customs” from the true Christmas celebration, which has to do with the birth of God’s Son, Jesus Christ. In my perfect world, people would call all of those customs “winter customs” or “holiday customs” rather than “Christmas customs.” “Christmas” would only be used to refer to the Christian holy day that remembers Christ’s birth. But I don’t see that happening any time soon.

There is a FAQ page about various Christmas customs on the same web site as Dr. Bucher’s other articles.

Perhaps the biggest custom of Christmas is the Christmas tree. There have been a number of false assumptions linking its origin to Paganism, but again, with no historical basis. It is often difficult to separate history from legend in such cases. Many variations are found on the internet, most without sources or citations (not uncommon on the Web). Dr. Bucher lists his sources for his articles:

In doing the research for this article, I found three works especially helpful. The first is Christmas in Ritual and Tradition, Christian and Pagan by Clement A. Miles. Though now a bit dated, Miles’s work made use of the best scholarship of the time, much of which has not been improved upon, and therefore is still a valuable resource. Of equal value is Francis X. Weiser’s Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs. Weiser’s work only devotes several chapters to the customs of Christmas, but these are well researched and articulated. I also found The Solstice Evergreen by Sheryl Ann Karas to be helpful. Karas has done an admirable job researching the various ways that the evergreen has been used in various cultures over the centuries and this is the book’s strength.

At one time I, like many other Christians, cited Jeremiah 10 as “proof” that the Christmas tree was Pagan.

Jeremiah 10:
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

However, careful examination of the context shows that it is speaking of cutting down trees and carving them into idols, decking them with silver and gold. It is not referring to the Christmas tree, which in its modern form did not come into existence till hundreds of years later.  (See Dr. Bucher’s article on this here.)

So where did the Christmas tree originate? While the popular story of Martin Luther setting up the first Christmas tree is purely legendary, most history scholars agree that it did originate in Germany. The earliest record of a decorated evergreen at Christmas is from 1521 in Alsace (a region of Germany). Another record from Strasbourg in 1605 describes what was hung on their tree – “…roses cut of many-coloured paper, apples, wafers, gold-foil, sweets…” We also know from historical writings that not all Christians approved of the custom. The theologian Johann Dannhauer said he didn’t know where the custom came from, and called it “child’s play… Far better were it to point the children to the spiritual cedar-tree, Jesus Christ.” The first mention of candles on a Christmas tree is in the 1600’s. The custom grew slowly in popularity from the mid-17th century, and had grown to the general German custom it is today by the early 19th century. But where did it originate?

Karas has amply demonstrated that evergreens have been a symbol of rebirth from ancient times. Bringing greenery into one’s home, often at the time of the winter solstice, symbolized life in the midst of death in many cultures. The Romans decked their homes with evergreens and other greenery during the Kalends of January. Living trees were also brought into homes during the old German feast of Yule, which originally was a two-month feast beginning in November. The Yule tree was planted in a tub and brought into the home. However, the evidence just does not exist which shows that Christians first used trees at Christmas as a symbol of rebirth, nor that the Christmas tree was a direct descendent of the Yule tree. On the contrary, the evidence that we have points in another direction. The Christmas tree appears to be a descendent of the Paradise tree and the Christmas light of the late Middle Ages.

From the eleventh century, religious plays called “mystery plays” became quite popular throughout Europe. These plays were performed outdoors and in churches. One of the most prevalent of these plays was the “Paradise play.” The play depicted the story of the creation of Adam and Eve, their sin, and their banishment from Paradise. The play would end with the promise of the coming Savior and His Incarnation (cf. Gen. 3:15). The Paradise play was simple by today’s standards. The only prop on stage was the “Paradise tree,” a fir tree adorned with apples. From this tree, at the appropriate time in the play, Eve would take the fruit, eat it, and give it to Adam.

Because of abuses that crept into the mystery plays (i.e., immoral behavior), the Church forbade these plays during the fifteenth century. The people had grown so accustomed to the Paradise tree, however, that they began putting their own Paradise tree up in their homes on Dec. 24. They did so on Dec. 24 because this was the feast day of Adam and Eve (at least in the Eastern Church). The Paradise tree, as it had in the Paradise plays, symbolized both a tree of sin and a tree of life. For this reason, the people would decorate these trees with apples (representing the fruit of sin) and homemade wafers (like communion wafers which represented the fruit of life). Later, candy and sweets were added.

Another custom was to be found in the homes of Christians on Dec. 24 since the late Middle Ages. A large candle called the “Christmas light,” symbolizing Christ who is the light of the world, was lit on Christmas Eve. In western Germany, many smaller candles were set upon a wooden pyramid and lit. Besides the candles, other objects such as glass balls, tinsel, and the “star of Bethlehem” were placed on its top.

Though we cannot be certain, it seems highly likely that the first Christmas trees that appeared in Germany in the early sixteenth century were descendants of both of these customs: the Paradise tree and the Christmas pyramids and lights. The Paradise tree became our Christmas tree. Decorations that had been placed on the pyramids were transferred to the Christmas tree.

For many Christians the Christmas tree still retains the symbolism of the Paradise tree. The tree reminds us of the tree in Eden by which Adam and Eve were overcome and which thrust them into sin. But more importantly, the tree reminds us of the tree by which our sin was overcome, namely the tree upon which Christ Jesus was crucified. Is it a stretch to refer to the cross as a tree? Hardly, for this is the language of the New Testament itself! For example, Paul writes in Galatians 3:13, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree” (quoting Deut. 21:23). And Peter writes, “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.” Therefore, the Christmas tree is a wonderful symbol and reminder of our salvation and forgiveness through Jesus Christ!

Another reliable source that backs up its information with credible research is Snopes.com. Their article on the date of the birth of Jesus also corroborates the fact that December 25 was chosen as an alternative to Pagan celebration.

In those tenuous early days of Christianity, however, Church fathers debated strategies for supplanting the Mithras cult with their own religion. Since it was well known that Roman patricians and plebians alike enjoyed festivals of a protracted nature, Christians recognized that they needed an alternative to the December celebration of Natalis Solis Invincti. They needed a celebration in which all participants — Mithraists, Christians, and those in between — could take part with pride. Accordingly, the Church officially recognized Christ’s birth, and to offer head-on competition to the sun worshipers’ popular feast, the Church located the Nativity on December 25. The mode of observance would be characteristically prayerful: a Mass. In fact, Christ’s Mass. As one theologian wrote around 320 CE:

We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it.

Although centuries later, social scientists would write of the psychological power of group celebrations — the unification of ranks, the solidification of collective identity, the reinforcement of common objectives — the principle had long been intuitively obvious. Christianity took permanent hold in the Western world in 337 CE when Constantine I was baptized on his deathbed, uniting for the first time the Crown and the Church.

Granted there have been times since then that Pagan customs were mixed with Christian traditions. And there were also times when the celebration degenerated into drunken revelry. But that wasn’t always the case, and it didn’t start out that way. Also, because of this degradation, there were times in history when Christmas was frowned upon. The Puritans banned it in England at one point, and in America, English customs including Christmas fell out of favor after the Revolution. It wasn’t until June 26, 1870 that Christmas was declared a federal holiday. But much of the reason for rejecting Christmas in more recent centuries was not so much because they thought it was Pagan, but because of the drunken debauchery it had become. Such revelry as well as crass commercialism and unbridled greed have turned many off to Christmas even today. In response, many Christians have tried to get back to the observation of Christ’s birth, but this idea is hindered by those who insist that Christmas originated as a Pagan holiday.

The fact is, many different customs from many different cultures are mixed at this time of year, even among non-Christians. But the holiday isn’t going away any time soon. So if you’re going to celebrate something, why not observe the Christian traditions in contrast to the Pagan ones or the secular ones? As long as the celebration exists, which reaction would be more conducive to spreading the gospel – ignoring everything about Christmas because you were told it’s pagan, or encouraging more people to focus on the birth of Christ as Christians have done for hundreds of years? Focusing on Christ rather than other things is always a better choice.

Paul said in Romans 14 that, “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” (Romans 14:5). If one is convinced that Christmas is evil and Pagan, then he shouldn’t observe it. But a person can’t make an informed choice if the information they’re given is not historically accurate, and a vast amount of the info out there is just that. So it is important to get the facts straight about the origins of Christmas, and only then can one make an informed decision and thus be persuaded in his own mind.

(For more on whether or not to celebrate Christmas, and how to do so as a Christian, see this blog article by David Crank.)

23 Responses to “Is Christmas Pagan? (Part 2)”

  1. on 13 Dec 2010 at 1:24 pmXavier

    Yes, that time of the year, let the debate begin. 🙂

    If anyone is still wondering whether or not Christmas has anything to do with the faith, check this out:

    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20101213/evangelist-highlightschrist-before-christmas-/

    For the “message” visit: harvest.org: “Christ before Christmas”

  2. on 13 Dec 2010 at 2:35 pmMark C.

    I think everything that needs to be said about it was done in the comments of Part 1 of the article, seen here. I for one do not wish to beat a dead horse.

  3. on 13 Dec 2010 at 3:40 pmXavier

    Mark C.

    I for one do not wish to beat a dead horse.

    Not quite dead is it?

    Our like minded brethren should be reminded time and time again what this whole season is really about! Hopefully, their conscience bearing they will do likewise.

  4. on 13 Dec 2010 at 6:29 pmMark C.

    LOL! When I hear “Not quite dead” I always think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. “I’m not quite dead yet… I think I may pull through…”

    Anyway, I believe our like minded brethren should be made aware of both sides of the argument and allowed to decide for themselves what the holiday is “really” about. I believe that was accomplished in the original article and subsequent debate in the comments. I don’t think there would be any profit in rehashing what was already said repeatedly there.

  5. on 13 Dec 2010 at 7:09 pmXavier

    Mark C.

    Just checking bro…guess your still on the other side of the fence. 🙂

  6. on 13 Dec 2010 at 9:33 pmJoseph

    Is Christmas Pagan? Is Jesus a Jew?

  7. on 14 Dec 2010 at 3:26 amMark C.

    Xavier,

    Actually I don’t think there should be a fence. Let each be persuaded in his own mind.

    Joseph,

    Not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

  8. on 15 Dec 2010 at 11:15 amXavier

    Mark C.

    Sure bro…as our brother Paul says, when he claims to know and be convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus of what is the right or wrong thing to do. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.

    Lastly, do you also observe the holiday known as “Epiphany/Theophany”, celebrated on Jan. 6?

  9. on 16 Dec 2010 at 12:22 pmJaco

    It is clear that there are serious differences between Christmas celebrators and non-celebrators among us. Seeing that this is such a hot topic, even a crucible, could we please go this year without Christmas articles on KR?

    Phil. 1:10, 1 Cor. 10:29, 32.

  10. on 16 Dec 2010 at 12:53 pmXavier

    Jaco

    could we please go this year without Christmas articles on KR?

    You mean new articled or stop the postings altogether?

  11. on 16 Dec 2010 at 7:57 pmDoubting Thomas

    Jaco,
    It is clear that the one of the biggest pagan celebrations prior to Christianity was the winter solstice (Dec 25th.) when the sun started to rise higher and higher in the sky, and the days started to become longer and longer. To the sun god worshipers this was the holiest, and most important, day of the year.

    My own personal belief is that Yeshua was probably born in April, since the bible talks about the shepherds watching their flocks by night. Shepherds don’t normally watch their flocks at night. They would usually put them into a cave or an enclosed pen of some sort. The only time of year that they would watch their sheep at night was during calving season when newborn lambs were being born.

    This always occured in the spring, usually in April. Newborn sheep would not be born at the beginning of winter (Dec 25th.). To me it just makes sense that our Lord and Savior (Messiah/King), who was the perfect lamb without blemish or defect, would have been born when all the other newborn lambs were being born. But of course this is just my opinion and the bible doesn’t actually give us an exact date as such.

    I don’t see why people make such a big deal about the exact date of Yeshua’s birth, when the reality is we don’t know for sure what the date was. My friend Tim says there is evidence that as early as the 2nd. century people were celebrating Christmas (don’t know where he got that from). And he gets really angry when people say they believe Christmas is based on a pagan holiday.

    He knows my opinion, but I don’t argue with him, or try to force my opinion on him, because the way I see it he is entitled to hold his own opinion. I readily admit that I could be wrong. The fact is Christmas is my favorite time of year. I just look around at the peace, love, joy and kindness that is prevalent at this time of year. People go to church, think about our Lord and Savior, or attend choir recitals who otherwise would never attend such things.

    People give more money to charities, and will do more charitable work then they otherwise would normally do. Most people have a warm fuzzy feeling about Christmas, and are thankful that Yeshua was born to be our King and Savior. Whether it is the correct date or not is secondary, and I would even say unimportant, since we don’t know what day it actually was.

    The queen of England (for example) has an official birthday celebration in May or June (I forget which one now) when the weather is nice so they can hold all these royal parades and such. Everybody knows that it is not her actual birthday, and nobody cares. Why can’t we Christians also lovingly celebrate Yeshua’s birth on a day that might or might not be his actual birthday???

    You might say that it is a pagan (sun god) holy day, but the fact is nobody worships the sun anymore, accept maybe people looking to get the ultimate tan… 🙂 I don’t see why anyone should be offended if people want to celebrate the birth of Yeshua. I would rather have one day a year to remember the birth of our Lord and Savior than to go through the whole year not remembering or celebrating his birth at all.

    I’m sure God/Yahweh understands that we are not celebrating the return of the sun to the sky (like the pagans did). At least that’s the way I see it anywaze…

  12. on 20 Dec 2010 at 10:02 amMark C.

    Sure bro…as our brother Paul says, when he claims to know and be convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus of what is the right or wrong thing to do. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.

    Agreed.

    Lastly, do you also observe the holiday known as “Epiphany/Theophany”, celebrated on Jan. 6?

    No. When I was a kid, I remember it was part of the RC Church Calendar, but I don’t remember it ever being called Theophany. As I remember it was the observance of the Magi’s arrival. Of course that is probably not when they got there, but as far as I know that’s what Epiphany was about, at least in my Catholic upbringing. Do you know people that celebrate it as Theophany now?

  13. on 20 Dec 2010 at 12:48 pmXavier

    Mark C.

    Do you know people that celebrate it as Theophany now?

    Not personally but the tradition has survived as such in some orthodox churches in Europe.

    Why do you think such important events the birth, baptism and death were not carefully recorded or observed/celebrated by the NT? We’re not even historically sure as to the season/time they may have taken place.

  14. on 22 Dec 2010 at 2:05 pmMark C.

    Xavier,

    Why do you think such important events the birth, baptism and death were not carefully recorded or observed/celebrated by the NT? We’re not even historically sure as to the season/time they may have taken place.

    Because it’s not that big a deal.  But there is nothing that says we shouldn’t observe it if it’s done out of love for God and His Christ.

    ***

    To avoid further derailing Angela’s post, I am responding to you here. In that post I said, “For the love of God, LET IT GO!” You responded with, “It’s His love for the truth that prevents me from doing so. Hard for you to understand, hope others do.”

    It’s not hard at all for me to understand. In fact that remark is condescending and almost insulting, but I’ll let it go, with a warning. I love the truth of God’s Word, but I don’t believe what you’re saying is God’s Truth.

    Over these two threads, you keep repeating the same things over and over, seeming to ignore what I responded to them. I have to keep repeating the same things over and over again, and they fall on deaf ears. Once again, let me summarize my point.

    You keep coming back to “Celebrating Christmas is a wrong practice.” But as I have repeatedly stated, the Bible neither commands not forbids it. There is nothing about celebrating Christ’s birth in the Bible. And it’s ridiculous to say that anything the Bible doesn’t mention we shouldn’t be involved with. If that’s the case, then you shouldn’t be using a computer or posting things on an internet forum. Or driving a car… or using electricity… you get the idea.

    You keep saying, they should at least celebrate it on the right date. There are two things wrong with that. First, nobody knows for sure when he was born. Second, the reason the early Church decided to celebrate it on Dec. 25th in the first place was to provide an ALTERNATIVE to celebrating the Birth of the Unconquered Sun. They have said all along that nobody knows when Jesus was actually born, so they chose to OBSERVE HIS BIRTH on this date, as an alternative to the Pagan celebration. I’ve said this repeatedly, and yet you continue to repeat your same arguments.

    You keep saying (and proclaim in the video) that it is the celebration of the Incarnation of God the Son. While some Christians do celebrate this because of their belief in the Trinity, not all do. First, there are many Biblical Unitarians who celebrate the birth of Jesus at Christmas. Second, even among Trinitarians, there are many who do not emphasize the Incarnation aspect, and simply observe the birth of Our Lord and Savior. So it is inaccurate as well as misleading to lump the celebration of Christmas with the entire doctrine of the Trinity. The two are not inseparably linked. That’s why I said the video was “shamefully one-sided.”

    You keep saying that celebrating Christmas represents idolatry. I have repeatedly pointed out FROM SCRIPTURE, that idolatry is more in the heart than in the object of the idolatry. Since ANYTHING can be worshiped as an idol, it does not follow that anything that is idolized by one person or group is to be regarded as idolatrous in and of itself and cannot be used and appreciated by someone else in their devotion to God.

    There is also the point that no matter what was done 2000 years ago, people since then have observed Christmas many different ways, with a mixture of traditions, some of pagan origin, some of Christian origin, and some of a generic festive celebration nature. There is simply no basis for saying ALL Christmas celebration is wrong.

    You even stated above that if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong. That’s true. It is wrong for that person, and so they should not celebrate Christmas. It doesn’t follow, though, that it is wrong for everyone. However, I have also said that if there are those in my church who would be offended by my celebrating Christmas, I would not do so in their presence. But that is not the same as proclaiming to the world that it is WRONG and PAGAN and NO CHRISTIAN SHOULD OBSERVE IT. Do you see the difference here?

    When I have said this before, you have come back with the supposed “obvious” idolatrous nature, which brings us back to the disagreement among historians about whether Christmas was meant as a compromise with paganism or an alternative to it. And we keep going around in the same circles. Like I said, even in our debates with Trinitarians, when it gets to that point, we need to just agree to disagree, and drop it.

    Sooner or later you’re going to have to admit that neither you nor I know all the truth. If you see something one way and cannot see my viewpoint, and I see it another way and cannot see yours, then what is the point of going over and over it? Nobody wants to read that. You’ve made your point, and I’ve made mine. And agreeing to disagree doesn’t mean throwing in snide little comments about your side being the truth even if the other side can’t understand. It means just dropping it, out of love and respect for all concerned (including those who don’t want to keep reading these circular debates).

    Before replying, please reread both of these threads and ask yourself, “Have I said this before?” and “Has this been answered before?”

  15. on 22 Dec 2010 at 3:54 pmXavier

    Mark

    In fact that remark is condescending and almost insulting, but I’ll let it go, with a warning. I love the truth of God’s Word, but I don’t believe what you’re saying is God’s Truth.

    That Christmas is pagan and origin and prides itself on celebrating the Orthodox belief of the “Incarnation: when God became a human being”?!

    But as I have repeatedly stated, the Bible neither commands not forbids it.

    It does forbid partaking of pagan rituals and denying Jesus’ humanity. Like it or not, your continued pro-Christmas attitude identifies you and those like you, with both of these!

    First, nobody knows for sure when he was born.

    I get the feeling that if no virgin birth tradition had developed we wouldn’t even be having this debate. Biblical traditions from silence usually do not see the light of day.

    While some Christians do celebrate this because of their belief in the Trinity, not all do.

    As I said, like it or not, agree with me or not, you are consciously choosing to identify yourselves with a clearly pagan induced orthodox tradition that has become the beacon for the Trinity: the Incarnation of God the Son!

    …what is the point of going over and over it? Nobody wants to read that.

    Why don’t we let others decide that? Especially those who are currently of two minds on the subject and especially those new Christians who may not be aware of both our views. Like I was only a year ago and my conscious, enslaved by the biblical witness, was swayed to vehemently reject and expose it!

    “Have I said this before?” and “Has this been answered before?”

    See above.

  16. on 22 Dec 2010 at 4:58 pmMark C.

    “But as I have repeatedly stated, the Bible neither commands not forbids it.”

    It does forbid partaking of pagan rituals and denying Jesus’ humanity. Like it or not, your continued pro-Christmas attitude identifies you and those like you, with both of these!

    But observing the birth of Jesus at Christmas time is NOT a pagan ritual. Do you see how we’re going in circles?

    My attitude is not “pro-Christmas,” but pro-personal choice, as well as anti-judgmentalism and anti-false accusations.  It is unloving and unchristian to continue accusing anybody that observes the birth of Christ of being identified with pagan rituals and denying Jesus’ humanity.  It is a lie and will no longer be tolerated.

    As I said, like it or not, agree with me or not, you are consciously choosing to identify yourselves with a clearly pagan induced orthodox tradition that has become the beacon for the Trinity: the Incarnation of God the Son!

    Your opinion has been more than noted. We have agreed to disagree.  Let this be the end of it, in light of the communication policy. Consider this an official warning. If you continue arguing about it, it will be deleted.

  17. on 22 Dec 2010 at 7:00 pmMark C.

    Xavier,

    You posted a comment to the effect that I let JohnE get away with his posts but now am “reading you your last rights.”  Unfortunately in trying to moderate it, I accidentally deleted it. I apologize for that.

    First of all, JohnE did not “get away” with anything. I addressed his behavior in more specific terms in a personal email. I would have done the same with you, but when I clicked on your name, instead of getting your info with an email address, it went to your blog. Is your email address posted somewhere?

    You both seem to have the same frustrating habits. You continue to restate your argument over and over again, either ignoring or completely misunderstanding any comments or rebuttals I made. As a result we go round and round in circles and get nowhere. Is it really glorifying God to do this? Don’t say you are crusading against idolatry, because I have already responded to that many times. Observing the birth of Jesus at Christmas is NOT supporting idolatry, nor is it automatically supporting the Incarnation, and it is inappropriate and unloving to continue to throw out those accusations and judgments.

  18. on 22 Dec 2010 at 7:17 pmXavier

    Mark C.

    You both seem to have the same frustrating habits.

    Belittling, attacking the person and not the argument and being an outright enemy of the faith? I don’t think so.

    Don’t say you are crusading against idolatry, because I have already responded to that many times.

    I am trying to appeal to people’s consciousness and their express knowledge of scripture so their eyes, like mine, can be opened.

    You have no problem and seem happy to dialogue endlessly regarding other matters, which you so staunchly defend. Like your current back and forth with Wolfgang regarding the KOG. All I seek is for you to extend the same towards this topic.

    I have not reinstated and gone in circles, as you keep referring, to my initial comments regarding Christmas. Simply responding to your repeated warnings and threats.

  19. on 22 Dec 2010 at 10:59 pmJoseph

    Mark C,

    It is unloving and unchristian to continue accusing anybody that observes the birth of Christ of being identified with pagan rituals and denying Jesus’ humanity. It is a lie and will no longer be tolerated.

    Perhaps in your eyes, yes. But not in the eyes of those who take a tradition mingled in pagan history as something that can be a interference with other traditions we SHOULD be following. I don’t think saying it is unloving is fair. A Trinitarian could say that it is unloving for you to make the Messiah lesser than God, and say they are wrong about who Jesus really is. But we would know that your argument to them is not unloving. Disagreeing strongly and passionately does not equate to being unloving.

    I do enjoy many things about Christmas. The giving, the prayers, good deeds. But these things can be accomplished without being involved in a tradition that is foreign to God. IMHO.

  20. on 24 Nov 2011 at 11:29 amXavier

    Yes…we are back. 😉

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=schjf94NC0c

  21. on 05 Dec 2011 at 9:54 amXavier

    Did you know?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_Puritan_New_England

  22. on 09 Dec 2011 at 8:41 amXavier

    “People say that Christ has been lost in Christmas. Implicit in that is the idea that Christ had ever been totally the center of Christmas.” Historian P.N.Restad
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBzt_nDArqo&feature=related

  23. on 24 Aug 2012 at 8:47 amXavier

    In case anyone forgot…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=schjf94NC0c

    😉

  

Leave a Reply