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I’ve been wanting to do this post for a couple of weeks now, but somehow could never find the time to get it totally finished until today.  I hope my fellow posters here on KR won’t mind if I go out of turn.  Just think of this as my long lost “Saturday” post. 🙂

The Trinity brings out an Ugly Spirit!
by Ron Shockley
Recently I traveled to Atlanta, GA to attend the 19th annual Theological Conference put on by Anthony Buzzard’s “Restoration Fellowship” and The Church of God of Abrahamic Faith’s – “Atlanta Bible College”.  The conference was a truly wonderful experience and I am already looking forward to going to it again in 2011 for what will be the 20th year.  Hopefully sometime in the not so distant future, I’ll post my own little review of the speakers & events here on the kingdomready blog.

One of the truly great things about going to such a conference is being able to come into contact with such a diverse group of people from all over the United States and even the world itself.  I met many really wonderful people that journeyed far & wide to come to the conference so that they could hear the speakers, meet others of like faith, and hopefully take home with them some new knowledge, encouragement, and a feeling of being united together in the pursuit of the real truth of Scripture.

Throughout the week of the conference (and a post-conference class I attended) I did my best where possible to talk to as many of the attendees that I could at times.  I wanted to get to know everyone’s faith viewpoints and experiences. In so doing, I began to discover an unfortunate and all-too-common shared experience. Though I myself had come across the same thing over the years (perhaps to a much lesser degree), it was disconcerting that the majority of the attendees I spoke with shared very similar stories of this happening to them in such profound ways.  What I’m speaking of is the usual reaction one tends to get from someone who believes in The Trinity when you tell them that you do not.  Over and over again, person after person spoke of the fact that once they began to attempt to explain to others that after studying the Bible in earnest they came to the conclusion (usually after much prayer and reflection)  that The Trinity was false and they believed that Scripture plainly taught that Jesus was not “God the Son”, but simply the “Son of God” – God’s chosen fully human Messiah, the person (or persons) who believed in the Trinity, almost instantly became agitated, angry and often downright mean-spirited.  Time and again attendees spoke of people who they considered to be Christian friends, fellow church members, clergy, or even fellow believers in their own family, suddenly turning nasty and becoming outwardly hostile in their demeanor towards them on the issue.  It was like that they abruptly switched to being a different person.  A Christian attitude of love, patience and compassion suddenly if not instantly is overtaken by an attitude of contempt, bitterness, and barely constrained rage.

To me this kind of behavior speaks volumes about its authenticity and ultimate source.  Matthew 7:16 & 20 says “you will know them by their fruits”.  If that type of outward hostility isn’t a clear indicator of bad fruit, I don’t know what would be. Where did the proper Christian mindset and attitude go?  What happened to Paul’s instruction to “be kind to all”, to be “patient when wronged”, and “with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition” (2 Timothy 2:24-25)? What about Peter’s admonition to be “brotherly, kind-hearted, and humble in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:8) and again to employ “gentleness” – “always be ready to make a defense to every one that ask you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;” (1 Peter 3:15). And why is Paul’s teaching from Ephesians 4 not followed by these so-called brothers & sisters in the Christian faith – “Let all bitterness and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.” (Eph 4:31-32)?  Many times over the instruction is to be humble, kind, patient, and loving towards others in the faith.  Paul explained this in 1 Timothy 5:12 when in discussing how to teach others he said: “in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe”.

Of course these very Apostolic instructions went right out the window very early on in Christian history.  From the time that the Trinity became official orthodox dogma through numerous church councils in the 2nd to 4th centuries (mainly the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Chalcedon), belief in the Doctrine of the Trinity was enforced BY FORCE.  Dissenters were excommunicated, imprisoned, tortured, and put to death for daring to disagree with the Trinity. Jesus’ commission to “love your enemies” and to “turn the other cheek”, became “believe that Jesus is God the Son of the Holy Trinity or we’re going to kill you”.  Those who saw themselves as defenders of Christian orthodoxy tortured and murdered their fellow Christians because of their refusal to accept a requirement to believe Jesus was a co-equal, co-eternal member of a triune Godhead. But how could this ever come to fruition? What type of Christ-like behavior could possibly condone much less participate in such barbarous cruelty? How could thousands upon thousands of Christians (and many more times that for Jews) be forced to suffer persecution and violence by those who profess to love and believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob and His Christ? Could they not see that by their very actions they were the ones that Jesus himself predicted would come to be in John 16:2-3? “…an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.  These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me.”

Thankfully the death penalty for not believing in the Trinity fell by the wayside a little over 300 years ago.  But those that are misguided and don’t truly know God and his Messiah still have the same anger and violent predisposition of their bad-spirited forefathers. To this day there are those who would be willing to be like John Calvin and have non-trinitarian dissenters like Michael Servetus murdered in cold blood.  There are those who would light the first match and fan the flames to burn all those believed to be heretical to the orthodox position on the Trinity. Don’t believe that could happen in this day and age?  I think it could happen given the right circumstances. For example, recently some unitarian Christian friends of mine were on an online Evangelical Christian forum and were engaging in a debate with some Trinitarian believers on the Trinity.  After my friends commented on the historical persecution of non-trinitarians, a couple of the Trinitarian posters openly made the suggestion that it would be good if they were “put to death – like in the old days” for spreading their heresy online. In jest or not, that is NOT the way a Christian should think or talk to anyone – much less fellow believers in Christ.

Today even when Trinity espousers do not advocate the evil extremes of the past, there typically remains that hostile spirit.  Not only did I hear of it in the numerous personal experiences from so many of the conference attendees and also from other Christian friends who don’t believe in the Trinity, but I myself have encountered it on many an occasion. I’ve seen it occur in debates I’ve had with people online, over email, and in person. I’ve seen it happen in other public debates presented online and on the radio. Typically when discussing with someone how Scripture actually provides far greater evidence that the Trinity is false, it seems that the majority of Trinitarians immediately start exhibiting behavioral signs of agitation, animosity, indignation, and resentment. I’ve witnessed repeated examples of Trinitarians giving debate responses that were highly sanctimonious, haughty, and condescending.  I even had a preacher tell of a fellow preacher who was a friend of his but they differed in their belief in the Trinity.  In a discussion about it, the one who believed in the Trinity told the other one that they had to stop their discussion because he was becoming “full of rage” towards his friend.  Again, these behaviors are the exact polar opposite of what the apostles said we are to have.  Traits such as kindness, brotherly love, gentleness, humbleness, patience just are not usually there when it comes to a defense of the Trinity – something that most who believe in it, say comes from God.

Yes by their fruits we will know them.  And the fruit of the Trinity is bad to the core.  It doesn’t come from God. It doesn’t come from His Holy Spirit.  And it sure doesn’t come from His Messiah who practiced and preached peace and love to all. It doesn’t even come later from any of the Apostles or Paul.  No such a hostile, dark spirit can only come from one source – the god of THIS age (2 Cor 4:4).  Who else but Satan could be behind such acrimony and ill will?  Who else would cause Christians to feel rage and wish to do violence to their fellow Christian over a belief who’s very term (Trinity) never exists in all of Scripture? Who else could be behind the almost demonic possession of people who find themselves filled with malice and antagonism when defending the Trinity belief to those that feel it isn’t true? It has to be the one that Paul warned us about.  He said that the same serpent that deceived Eve by his craftiness would lead them astray from the “simplicity” in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3) – and the Trinity is anything but simple when it typically is admitted to be an “incomprehensible mystery”.  Paul went on to say that “Satan disguises himself as an angel of light” and that there were “false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ” (2 Cor. 11:13-14). Were the actions in enforcing the Trinity belief with such violence down through the centuries done by true apostles or “false” ones? Was such evil behavior done by true workers or “deceitful workers”? The answer is clear. Such vile fruit comes from its architect – Satan. The Apostle John said that “the WHOLE WORLD lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).  It shouldn’t be surprising that the Trinity belief took over the Jewish “Shema” and its view of God as a single person.  Lies, misinformation and confusion are Satan’s favorite tools.  Jesus called Satan for what he really is – “He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand for truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44). Peter called Satan our “enemy” and said that he “prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8). And with the construction of the Trinity, Satan has been able to “devour” a lot of good people. He has deceived the majority of the world. Throughout history he has bitterly persecuted and murdered those that dared to oppose it.

If you have been a believer in the Trinity and have found yourself getting angry while reading this or while reading or hearing other logical and Scriptural arguments against the Trinity, think about if those feelings are the feelings you should be having.  If you feel bitterness and animosity towards people like myself and others who try to show that Scripture overwhelmingly disproves the Trinity, then is your viewpoint really the truth of God?  Shouldn’t you be calm, compassionate, and feel a warm sense of Christian love for your brothers & sisters that aren’t on the path of truth?  Wouldn’t the correct response to be to try and convince those of us that are mistaken with tenderness and great patience? If you find yourself agitated, resentful, and just generally unfriendly in defending the Trinity, shouldn’t that speak volumes to you about its probable source? Think long and hard about that ultimate source.  Would God want or cause people to behave and feel in such ways?  I don’t think so.  And if you’re really honest with yourself, I believe you’ll come to the same conclusion.

As Scripture tells us – the side of truth and love, the side of righteousness will exhibit the right behavior:

1 John 3:7-10

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.  No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

114 Responses to “The Trinity brings out an Ugly Spirit!”

  1. on 25 May 2010 at 9:01 pmTim

    Interesting that you would mention “demonic possession.” I was dating a girl once whose dad was a deacon in a Baptist church. Her mother I think has not graduated from high school, as I recall. In one of the many discussions with her parents, her mother’s face became contorted, she gnashed her teeth at me and was barely comprehensible in her speech. I had not witnessed such rage in all my life.

    It was only later that I did some reading on demon possession and found some of these same characteristics described. I am not saying that she was demon possessed, but this was one of the more extreme cases that I have witnessed.

    To this day, I don’t understand why people react that way and how they can justify it. These people do not have the same reaction to Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens or any of the other current crop of God-deniers.

  2. on 25 May 2010 at 11:23 pmDoubting Thomas

    You said, “These people do not have the same reaction to Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens or any of the other current crop of God-deniers.”

    I believe it is because they can look down on these people as lost souls that are ignorant of the truth. They therefore they don’t see them as a threat to their own interpretation of scripture. But they see Unitarians as leading people astray (away from the truth) and they see us a threat to their own interpretation of scripture.

    Some probably consider us to be representatives of the Anti-Christ (the great deceiver). Most probably don’t perceive us as being their brothers in Christ and fellow children of God. Of course not all are like that. All three of my best friends are Trinitarians. I have never actually met another Unitarian (in person that is)…

  3. on 26 May 2010 at 12:52 amRon S.

    Hey Tim!

    Yeah you mentioned that to me awhile back and I forgot about it. That’s another great example of this. It is like the Agents in “The Matrix”. They could take over any regular person still plugged into the Matrix in order to quickly go after those that were unplugged & trying to expose everything. Satan’s Matrix of the Trinity must have his “agents” (demons) take over those fully plugged into it to lash out at those of us who try to expose it!

    And you’re right that they don’t get that way with an Atheist or Agnostic who denies God & Scripture.

    DT – you’re probably right in that they’re not perceived as a threat. Though I believe that the reason for this is because that’s just another one of Satan’s tools – the lie that God doesn’t exist and the Bible is just a story book. Satan won’t strike out against his own chosen machinations. Makes sense doesn’t it?

  4. on 26 May 2010 at 3:41 amFiona

    Hi Ron S
    What a thought provoking article! Before I was halfway through it, I thought- “this sounds very much like Satan and his demons behind this”. Think of the response of the demons inhabiting sufferers’ bodies, during Jesus’s ministry. They were all very quick to pick up on the fact that He was the Son of God, and hence a threat to them (Mark 5:7 and others). Is it therefore a stretch to think that the same thing, in a lesser form, is happening when the trinitarian meets the non-trinitarian? I think not. Changing from being trinitarian to non-trinitarian is actually the thin edge of a wedge. Once the person sees the errors of the trinity, other incorrect doctrines soon come to light. Maybe the demons know this, so go all out to prevent people from accepting the deception of the trinity?
    Wow-that’s quite mindblowing!

  5. on 26 May 2010 at 5:47 amFiona

    Sorry, I know we are not supposed to do two blogs in a row, but I just read something that really lends weight to the idea of demons. This is a scripture familiar to us all, Paul talking to Timothy in 2 Tim2:25,26, but much better to read the whole chapter for context.
    “Those who oppose him, he must gently instruct,in the hope that God will grant them repentance, leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”

  6. on 26 May 2010 at 11:52 amRon S.

    Thanks Fiona!

    Yes it is “quite mind-blowing” when you start to really consider the ramifications for such hostile reactions.

    You make a great point about the demon-possessed people that Jesus encountered during his ministry. Though the people at large didn’t know who Jesus really was, the demons instantly knew EXACTLY who Jesus was. They called him the “Son of God”, “The Son of the Most High God”, “the Holy One of God”, and “the Messiah”. I posted an article last summer on this & that Scripture’s record of how the demons addressed him gives further evidence against the Trinity (“Demons don’t believe in The Trinity“) since they never once referred to him as God.

    And thanks for highlighting the entirety of the verses of 2 Timothy 2:25-26! I listed a segment of that, but I should have posted the entirety of it. In fact, I’ll do that right here and now so that everyone can look at the details of what Paul is saying there. But let’s back up to verse 22 and examine the whole paragraph.

    But run away from the evil desires of youth. Try hard to live right and to have faith, love, and peace, together with those who trust in the Lord from pure hearts. Stay away from foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they grow into quarrels. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, a good teacher, and patient. The Lord’s servant must gently teach those who disagree. Then maybe God will let them change their minds so they can accept the truth. And they may wake up and escape from the trap of the devil, who catches them to do what he wants.

    (New Century Version translation)

    Wow indeed!

  7. on 26 May 2010 at 1:31 pmBrian Keating

    Hi Ron,

    Thanks for that article; it was very interesting. I have encountered some of that same behavior from Trinitarians myself – in fact, in one case I was told that I was not a Christian at all, because I don’t believe in the Trinity…

    A friend of mine did raise a question about this article, though. She basically asked, “Why would the devil try to spread the doctrine of the Trinity? After all, if a person believes in the Trinity, then that person is saved, right?”

    So, what do all of you think about that question? Is a person who believes in the Trinity saved? If so, then it doesn’t seem to make sense that the adversary would try to promulgate that doctrine.

    The only rationale that I can come up with, for why Satan would try so hard to keep the Trinity doctrine going, is that that doctrine is much more difficult for people to believe than the simple Unitarian doctrine of Scripture. (Some Trinitarians even admit that the Trinity is a “mystery”, which cannot be understood by humans at all!)

    As a result, if churches teach the Trinity, then churches will (presumably) have a more difficult time convincing people to have any belief in God or Jesus at all. In other words, if churches teach the Trinity, then that will end up causing fewer people to become Christians. Certainly, that is something that the adversary wants to happen. What do all of you think?


  8. on 26 May 2010 at 4:29 pmDoubting Thomas

    Your friend asked, “Why would the devil try to spread the doctrine of the Trinity? After all, if a person believes in the Trinity, than that person is saved, right?”

    I believe that Satan has had 2,000 years to try his best to pollute Jesus’ very clear and simple message that he himself received directly from God. He has divided the body of Christ into several thousand separate groups. This not only makes us appear very weak with a weak message, it actually does make us very much weaker than we otherwise could have potentially have been.

    I know when I first became a Christian, about 15 years ago, I was totally confused as to which doctrine (out of the huge number of doctrines available) I should believe. I personally let two things guide me. First I looked at the behavior of the various groups and secondly I ignored everything I had been taught as a child (about doctrine) and tried to search for the truth myself in the scriptures (as best as I could).

    This was a time consuming process that took me over a decade of studying and searching. I am convinced now that I have finally found the right group of people here at this website. I thank God for giving me all these knowledgeable people here to communicate with and to learn from. I have learned so much since coming to this website. I have learned about things that I don’t think I ever could have learned on my own.

    I believe God does want us to commune (communicate) with other Christians. It is built into our nature to be social creatures with social needs, love, compassion, friendship, companionship etc…

    This is what gives each of us the strength in our own struggles with our doubts and with our faith…

  9. on 27 May 2010 at 1:48 pmRon S.


    Oh yes, the old “You’re not a Christian if you don’t believe in the Trinity”, or “you’re not saved”, or even more fun – “you’re going to HELL if you don’t accept the Trinity”. All of those have been said to me over the years. I tried to pin one person down once that said I was “lost” for not believing in it to where in Scripture it says that you have to believe in the Trinity (never mind that the word itself is not anywhere in there), and he said John 8:24. According to him and one or two others I’ve run across, when Jesus says “you will die in your sins unless you believe I am he”, the “I am” part of that is code for linking back to the Exodus 3:14 “I AM”. In other words Jesus was calling himself God there and saying you have to believe he is God or you’ll die in your sins. A very, VERY weak argument!

    Your friend asked – why would the devil spread the lie of the Trinity? Well I can think of a good number of reasons why. For starters the spreading of misinformation is a great way to sow confusion and cause problems all over the place. You yourself came up with a result in that it causes people to disbelieve.

    I remember a lyric in a song by an alternative rock band I liked back in the 90’s (Concrete Blonde) and their song “Tomorrow Wendy” (about a woman dying of AIDS) had a lyric that went “don’t count on any second coming, God got his @## kicked the first time he came down here slumming“. That lyric always made me uncomfortable (naturally as you may have just in reading it now), but if you accept the lie of the Trinity, that seems like what really happened. Instead of a human Messiah being murdered by his fellow man, you have God being beaten, tortured, and killed by his creation. How many intelligent people have seen through the logical fallacy of that and been turned off towards Christianity – thinking that’s beyond absurd? And there’s the devil’s main goal – get people turned off towards belief in God in general.

    For those that remain believers, Satan wants to get us believing in the wrong facts (and then argue & splinter regarding those facts). “Oh there’s no way a human man could pay for the sins of mankind, only God himself could do that”, is a great way to belittle the accomplishment of Jesus as well. And it is also way to blasphemy God and sow confusion with his word (God is not a man nor a Son of man – no somehow he was fully God and fully human at the same time, but God is immortal, well yeah God didn’t die, only his human side did, etc. etc..). All these are perfect ways to make people doubt God & his written word. For those of us that fight through it for the truth, how many more give up on it all together. And for those that just cave and accept it blindly, how many of them lose focus and only go along with Christianity in basic name only – because they couldn’t wrap their minds around such illogical absurdities?

    Pushing the Trinity is also a great way to cause strife between Christianity and the other two Abrahamic, monotheistic faiths. How much blood-shed have the Jews suffered at the hands of Christians over their refusal to believe in Jesus as “God in the flesh”, a “three-in-one” God vs. the “one-in-one” God of the SHEMA? Muslims get turned off from Christianity too because they also recognize that believing in a three-in-one God is plain & simple polytheism. One can look at the bloody history of Christianity’s treatment of both of those faiths (in addition to Trinity dissenters within Christianity) and see what evils have come out of the strict Trinity dogma of Orthodoxy.

    Now as far as Trinitarians being “saved”, I don’t know. Of course they feel like that are. But I really don’t know for sure. Jesus did say some scary stuff in Matthew 7:

    For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it (Matthew 7:13-14, NIV)

    and then further

    Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!‘ (Matthew 7:15-23, NIV)

    How narrow is that gate? How many are meant by “FEW”?? The majority of Christianity now & throughout the last 1700 years has been Trinitarian. That’s a LOT of folk. “Few” would apply a lot more appropriately to those that have not believed it and see Jesus as the Messiah OF God.

    But thankfully that is not up to me or anyone else. That is up to God and his Messiah. God has given Jesus all authority and rule and he will make the call at his return. Hopefully all those good people who have been duped by the great Trinity lie will be included. But I’m not so sure about those who persecute and harm others (emotionally, mentally, or physically) over the Trinity. We’ll just have to see how it plays out in the end. For me, right now, I’m always in truth searching mode to ensure I find that “small/narrow gate/road”. 🙂

  10. on 27 May 2010 at 3:21 pmrobert

    “How narrow is that gate? How many are meant by “FEW”?? The majority of Christianity now & throughout the last 1700 years has been Trinitarian.”

    You would do well to read Jude with these questions in mind.

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Then ask yourself whether common salvation(Grace) is the narrow or wide gate, I think you will see the path that leads to the narrow gate comes from the message delivered unto the Saints. The Saints are those who have chose to set themselves apart from All the other nations by chosing to wear the mark of Israel. therefore it is of no use to you to not be a trinitarian unless you are also willing to set yourself apart from all other nations by marking yourself with the signs of Israel giving by the OT. Salvation is a gift which will be given as God choses but His Rest is for those who have set themselfs apart and is a reward.
    I am not sure if there is any of this age that will enter by the narrow other than those of the early followers of Jesus. There has been way to much deception and corruption the past 1700 years to know for sure. I myself would love to enter by the narrow gate By trying to follow the faith delivered to the Saints but have doubts that it will make a difference. one thing for sure is it gives me better knowledge of God than i had before coming to this faith.

  11. on 22 Jun 2010 at 7:37 pmAntioch

    I’ve had my suspicions about the trinity being ‘satanic’, glad to know I am not alone. But, I still tread lightly in thinking that trinitarians might be demon possessed – that is, after all, what was thought historically of non-trinitarians and why they justified murdering them. I want to make sure I am not bearing that same fruit.

    But as to why Satan would do this, perhaps Revelation 13 provides some background? Laying the foundation that Jesus is God clears the way to have people believe that the beast is the ‘second coming’ and due to the trinitarian confusion, more likely that people would worship the beast.

  12. on 08 Mar 2015 at 10:16 amDavid H

    Father got my attention in a Pentecostal church of 200, in 30 secs turned me on from recluse nd stuttering on every word to no fear of people, now the church was Trinitarian as are most Pentecostal

    I was so turned around I couldn’t get enough of Gods word, and over a year came to see that this trinity was not to be found , anywhere, but many verses telling of jesus have pre humanity existence with the father, , yes , if I tel people im not Trinitarian , they look at me sideways. some say woo how can you believe in God then, lol,

    But I know father has used me in miraculous healings and other things that they will never see in their life

  13. on 18 Mar 2015 at 8:16 pmRay

    I’ve often heard how many Christians want to warn people of cults, getting deceived by cults, and getting involved in a cult, and one common warning about them as well as how to recognize one is that they will to some extent, or in some measure, deny the deity of Christ.

    So I wonder…Do Trinitarians in some degree, or to some measure, deny the Sonship of Christ?

    I just noticed something and that is according to my spell check, “Sonship” might not even be a word, or at least it doesn’t seem to be recognized as a legitimate word….unless I misspelled it.

    At any rate, I find this question interesting…Does any Trinitarian’s theology ever deny the sonship of Jesus, at any time, or by any portion or part at any time?

    I suppose it might be best if I ask a Trinitarian that question.

    For that matter, how about I ask this question:

    How long has Jesus been the Son of God?
    a. Forever going back in time
    b. From eternity
    c. Both a. and b.

    Or, do some believe that Jesus has always been God until the time when he proceeded forth from God, and then he became his Son?

    Or what?

  14. on 19 Mar 2015 at 1:36 amTimoteo

    Hello Ray,

    “How long has Jesus been the Son of God?
    a. Forever going back in time
    b. From eternity
    c. Both a. and b.

    Or, do some believe that Jesus has always been God until the time when he proceeded forth from God, and then he became his Son?

    Or what?”

    Jesus became a son of GOD at conception/birth!

    Adam became a son of GOD when he was created!

    1 Corinthians 15: (kjv)
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    1 Timothy 2: (kjv)
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

    A intensive explanation, is found in these recent teachings by Sean Finnegan’s father @ lhim.org.

    Supernatural Makeover:


    The Two Natures:


  15. on 19 Mar 2015 at 8:36 pmRay

    If I am going to read about Jesus being the Son of God, “For all it’s worth”, I may read it as him always being the Son of God ever since he had any being, form, or existence, (physical or otherwise) which I believe certainly makes sense, long before he came into this world in the flesh, even from eternity, in the Spirit of God even.

  16. on 19 Mar 2015 at 11:51 pmTimoteo


    The suggestion is not for you to read, but to listen, to listen to the two above audio teachings.

    Where have you been reading that Jesus pre-existed his conception and birth?

    Perhaps you have confused GODs foreknowledge with that foreknowledge coming into fruition?

  17. on 20 Mar 2015 at 3:51 amRay

    One place I have been reading where Jesus existed prior to his conception in the womb of Mary his mother, is in John chapter 1, another is Hebrews 1, and also Genesis 1. (for to me there are things spoken of in a figure there concerning Christ) There’s also something from Colossians and other places.

    I wonder if some people have confused God’s foreknowledge with Christ’s actual existence.

    Concerning Christ’s existence, I am not of the ‘strictly foreknowledge’

  18. on 20 Mar 2015 at 8:09 amTimoteo


    What about GODs beforeknowledge about you, considering that you may be a Christian?

    Ephesians 1: (kjv)

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    There certainly is a difference between: being **predestinated** and being **pre-existing**.

    Hebrews 4: (kjv)

    15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    The first Adam’s sin is humankind’s predestined nature.

    So, was Jesus Christ’s, the second Adam, predestined nature to sin or by choice, not to sin?

    1 Corinthians 15: (kjv)
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    I continue to recommend that you listen to the two teachings linked in
    post #14, above!

  19. on 20 Mar 2015 at 11:37 amJas

    As an example of the facts: In the early Christian writing known as THE INSTRUCTOR, a second century work by Clement of Alexandria, it is written: “For at the moment of the Lord’s baptism there sounded a voice from heaven, as a testimony to the Beloved, ‘Thou art My beloved Son, to-day have I begotten Thee’”. In the words of Methodtus (A.D. 260-312), in his works THE BANQUET OF THE TEN VIRGINS; OR, CONCERNING CHASTITY, he writes: “Now, in perfect agreement and correspondence with what has been said, seems to be this which was spoken by the Father from above to Christ when He came to be baptized in the water of the Jordan, ‘Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee’”. In the words of Lactantius (A.D. 260-330.), in his THE DIVINE INSTITUTES, he writes: “Then a voice from heaven was heard: ‘Thou art my Son, today have I begotten Thee’. Which voice is found to have been foretold by David. And the Spirit of God descended upon Him, formed after the appearance of a white dove. From that time He began to perform the greatest miracles, not by magical tricks, which display nothing true and substantial, but by heavenly strength and power, which were foretold even long ago by the prophets who announced Him; which works are so many, that a single book is not sufficient to comprise them all”.

    “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him” (Deut 18:15 NIV). When Peter spoke before the Jews, he stated that this prediction applied to Jesus — and in so doing, himself called Jesus a prophet: “Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as he raised me up. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you… This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as he raised me up’” (Acts 3:22;7:37 RSV).

    What Yeshua taught his disciples with regard to who he was, is exactly what was stated by Peter after he was totally enlightened by the Holy Spirit: “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know” (Acts 2:22 NIV). Where did Peter get the notion that Jesus was a man — a man “accredited by God”??? A man that God performed miracles, wonders and signs through? Didn’t Jesus himself say that “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself…” (John 5:19 NAS); “The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works” (John 14:10 NKJ); “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:30 NKJ); “…I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him” (John 8:28-29 NIV); “for the works which the Father has given Me to finish — the very works that I do — bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me” (John 5:36 NKJ); “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You” (John 17:6-7 NKJ).
    How could God give God works to finish? How could God know nothing except what God taught him? Moreover, why would God — a Being that cannot be defiled — consecrate himself as seen in the words: “They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth” (John 17:16-19 RSV).

  20. on 20 Mar 2015 at 6:32 pmRay

    So I guess the idea goes around that since we did not yet exist before we were born of the flesh, neither could Jesus have. Silly, seems to me.

    One day we hope to be alive in heaven with Jesus after we die. Do you suppose we will ask each other if we had a prior existence?

  21. on 20 Mar 2015 at 8:09 pmTimoteo


    Thanks for your informative post, #19.

  22. on 22 Mar 2015 at 8:59 amRay

    It is interesting when I think about how some have said that there are things they will live and die over, meaning the Trinity (I assumed by the context of their message) but I wonder how many Trinitarians were burned at the stake, for believing in the Trinity?

    Does history have anything to say about that?

  23. on 22 Mar 2015 at 10:18 amJas

    Can’t recall a single historical event off that. But recall many events where trinitarians were the ones murdering, imprisoning ,looting,stealing property and etc.

  24. on 22 Mar 2015 at 12:58 pmJas


    Most of these were unitarian christians many of which were sabbatarian anabaptist. Some just disagreed were killed

  25. on 22 Mar 2015 at 2:16 pmRay

    Well if we were to judge by the fruit, would that be 50 million to none, or is that going too far?

  26. on 22 Mar 2015 at 2:36 pmJas

    You asked what history had to say! The truth is found within history .

  27. on 22 Mar 2015 at 3:29 pmRay

    I guess 50 million would be going too far, for there must have been many other reasons a Christian would kill another Christian other than for being something other than a Trinitarian. Still, under the leadership of the original apostles of Jesus, all that didn’t happen did it?

    But why don’t we hear about Trinitarians being killed because of what they believed in, by non Trinitarians?

    Christians killing Muslims, and Muslims killing Christians, history was all about that. Protestants against Catholics, Catholics against Protestants, etc.

  28. on 22 Mar 2015 at 3:52 pmJas

    Yes there has been instances where people of all religions have killed but your question was about trinitarians being killed for their belief in trinity. Yes protestants have killed catholics but in almost every instance both were trinitarian. Yes radical Islam has murdered but they dont represent all Islam.
    History will answer your question

  29. on 22 Mar 2015 at 7:50 pmRay

    How do we know if a Trinitarian was killed by a group of non Trinitarians? (because of his doctrine on the Trinity) Is there anything anyone here knows about that?

    We know about Servetus, but are there any examples from the other side of things?

  30. on 22 Mar 2015 at 7:58 pmRay

    I’m not one to do a lot of study on this, but I did find that Servetus was burned for heresy, and was into something about pulmonary circulation, the Trinity, predestination, and also was into astrology, so I suppose it gets difficult to say how many people were killed for not being Trinitarian, or teaching anything contrary to the Trinity doctrine, or how many Trinitarians were killed for teaching the Trinity, since people are often a collection of things.

  31. on 22 Mar 2015 at 8:00 pmRay

    There are all kind of things that would like to take a Christian as it’s trophy.

  32. on 22 Mar 2015 at 8:17 pmJas

    Hitler was a devout trinitarian whose goal was to be the next holy roman emperor. Trinitarians truly have been known to possess the ugliest spirit known.
    The fact is nowhere at no time has any christian religous system ever murdered more than trinitarians. The holy roman empire rewarded the crusaders by guaranteeing them entrance into heaven if murdered or died in the act of murdering.

  33. on 22 Mar 2015 at 9:21 pmRay

    I’m thinking there likely isn’t much that can be found about groups of non Trinitarians killing Trinitarians for the sake of trinity doctrine.

  34. on 22 Mar 2015 at 9:38 pmJas

    Yet trinitarians are the majority, would not you think if such knowledge existed you could find it effortlessly .
    Ray no unitarian group has ever sanctioned murder of trinitarians but many have killed defending themselves against the HolyRoman Trintarian Empire .

  35. on 23 Mar 2015 at 3:15 amTimoteo

    seen and not seen(word study-kjv)

    Romans 8:
    24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    1 Corinthians 2:
    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    2 Corinthians 4:
    18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

    Colossians 2:
    18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

    Hebrews 11:
    1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Hebrews 11:
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Hebrews 11:
    7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    Hebrews 11:
    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    1 Peter 1:
    8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

    1 John 3:
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    1 John 4:
    20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    3 John 1:
    11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

  36. on 23 Mar 2015 at 3:42 amTimoteo


    Yes indeed, “no unitarian group has ever sanctioned murder of trinitarians but many have killed defending themselves against the HolyRoman Trintarian Empire”.

    I learned in my college World History Class: “The majority of European wars were fought because of the differences between doctrines, Holy Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church”.

    For one thing in particular, the Orthodox priest was allowed to take a wife in marriage.

    Today we have witnessed the horrific murder of Christians and Yazidis by the ISIS march. Islam believes in one god, the moon god, they are not trinitarians.

    The Yazidis are Zoroaster Magi decendants of the Magi whom Daniel was given charge and who brought the gold, frankincense and myrrh to young Jesus.

  37. on 23 Mar 2015 at 9:20 amJas

    Islam believes in the same God of the OT and NT. People of the Book were Jews of the Torah and Christians of the Gospel. Islam however does had issues with the corruptions of the NT and Rabbinical Judaism who rewrote God’s Laws .
    For nearly 1000 years Islam Protected Christians and Jews from the Holy Roman Empire.
    12:15 Then 42 the serpent spouted water like a river out of his mouth after the woman in an attempt to 43 sweep her away by a flood, 12:16 but 44 the earth came to her rescue; 45 the ground opened up 46 and swallowed the river that the dragon had spewed from his mouth.

  38. on 23 Mar 2015 at 11:30 amJas

    The Yazidis only have a very small element of Zoroasterism with elements of christianity, judaism . They believe in One supreme Creator but claim He gave authority over the earth to Satan. They do not worship Satan but do give honor to his authority.
    Constantine was a follower of the prophet of Mithras ,Zoroasteri as was many of the prenicene fathers. He proclaimed Jesus as the return of Mithras then made Zoroasterism the official religion of Rome by using the Jesus of Christianity as the latest return of Mithras

    “They despise our sun-god, Did not Zoroaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday. – O’Leary, The Syriac Church and Fathers, pp 83,84

  39. on 23 Mar 2015 at 1:08 pmRay

    I heard a man say (though he didn’t come out and say it, exactly, but I thought he was saying) something I thought was the gist of “The Trinity isn’t a bad thing, it’s just that some people do the wrong thing with it.” , and I thought that maybe he was talking about the Trinity (without saying it) and how it’s been imposed on people.

    The Bible is a good thing, but what if there were a group of people who were doing a wrong thing with it? I suppose I shouldn’t want to be a part of it.

  40. on 23 Mar 2015 at 2:33 pmTimoteo


    “They believe in One supreme Creator but claim He gave authority over the earth to Satan. They do not worship Satan but do give honor to his authority.”

    In the Garden, Adam had supreme authority over all the Earth. With sin he lost this authority to the devil and was kicked out and kept from eating from the tree of life, lest he would live forever in sin.

    Luke 4:
    6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

    2 Corinthians 4:
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

  41. on 23 Mar 2015 at 3:52 pmJas

    Yes Adam’s disobedience took away his role as the future ruler, just as obedience gave Jesus this future rule.
    I understand where they get their belief but the supreme Creator still has dominion over Satan’s Fate therefore fear him because God also has dominion over mankind’s fate

  42. on 23 Mar 2015 at 4:10 pmJas

    The purpose for the need of a future ruler is once again God will rest his Sabbath and this time He will not intrust it to Lucifer who sought to keep Sovereign rule by force. After Jesus rules he will return all this authority back to God because he has been proven obedient .

  43. on 23 Mar 2015 at 9:20 pmTimoteo



  44. on 30 Mar 2015 at 5:44 amRay

    I listened a bit today from Hal Lindsey’s program on TV, as he was talking about the man God became, or something like that.

    In thinking about that a bit, I wrote down a few things. Here’s what I wrote down:

    When Jesus came into this world and walked as a man, what people saw is how the Father himself would walk if he were a man who was born a Jew, under the law, at the time when Jesus walked this earth in his body which was born of a virgin.

    We could say that God became a man, in the person of Jesus Christ, because of this, because of how Jesus, the Son of God walked, who showed us what true godliness is in it’s fullest expression, in a fallen world.

    This is the example he gave us.

    All of what God is that we could see as an example given to us by God, is given to us through Jesus Christ.

  45. on 30 Mar 2015 at 5:46 amRay

    Maybe someone here should write a book someday about when God became a man.

  46. on 30 Mar 2015 at 6:01 amRay

    From what I have read of the Bible, God entrusted the care of this world unto Adam, and after the fall, he lost something he once had, and having fallen into sin, Satan found more opportunity to work in this world through mankind.

    This world is kept by the word of God, and men are still entrusted by God to take care of it, to not misuse it, and to do good with what they can gain of it, or get from it.

    The keeping of the kingdom Jesus entrusted to the Holy Spirit.

    Since the Holy Spirit is still given by God, it seems to me that the kingdom of heaven is still at hand.

  47. on 31 Mar 2015 at 8:53 pmRay

    So does the hearing of the Trinity doctrine have the power to fill people with the holy Spirit? Are people today filled with the power of the holy Spirit by sitting and listening to the doctrine of the Trinity?

    Do people get born again that way?

    Is it essential, or is it more of an accessory like getting white wall tires on a new car?

    I remember hearing hours and hours of teaching from the scriptures in classes on cassette tape many years ago, and people getting born again by those classes, the new birth being witnessed to by the manifestation of speaking in tongues…..and there was no Trinity teaching in those classes…if it was there, I must have missed it.

    Is there a correct interpretation of the doctrine of the Trinity, and if so, can there be a wrong one?

  48. on 01 Apr 2015 at 2:42 amTimoteo


    Your #47

    “I remember hearing hours and hours of teaching from the scriptures in classes on cassette tape many years ago, and people getting born again by those classes, the new birth being witnessed to by the manifestation of speaking in tongues…..and there was no Trinity teaching in those classes…if it was there, I must have missed it.”

    I really find this fascinating Ray, especially when you never tell us how we can get a hold of these teaching tape too.

    You often show off your knowledge about the holy spirit field in your writings.

    Didn’t you learn how to “rightly divide” GODs word as well?

    Do you still believe that faith comes by hearing?

    Romans 10: (kjv)
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    I feel, the way as you do. Of all the examples of people becoming Christian in the book of Acts, I have never have read anything about the trinity being taught to them before, during or after their manifestation of holy spirit. As a matter of fact, I never have ever, no never ever have seen the word trinity anywhere in the whole KJV bible.

    Have you ever seen the word trinity in your bible?

    Even more, I never have read about anyone, and especially Jesus’s Apostles actually baptizing anyone, in the name anyone or any thing or any spirit.

    Matthew 28: (kjv)
    19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    They did go and teach but John the baptist foretold about Jesus being the one, the only one, to baptize with holy spirit.

    Luke 3: (kjv)
    16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    Have you ever read about John, the baptist, teaching the trinity myth.

    Ray, where and how can I listen the hours and hours of teaching tapes?


  49. on 01 Apr 2015 at 5:44 pmJas

    Everyone of the 38000 denominations claims their statement of faith leads to the filling of the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of the 37999. Truth is Satan himself can transform into an Angel of light and his ministers into ministers of righteousness , he also has spirits that can fill a person. Satan only needs one lie to keep a person from becoming a future citizen of the coming Kingdom of God. Satan and his can teach 99% truth yet get you to worship him instead of the Creator.

  50. on 01 Apr 2015 at 8:34 pmTimoteo


    Thanks! I have updated from 33,000 to 38,000. Pretty sorry(slang expression), that there are so many opposed to:

    2 Peter 1: (kjv)
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    I would adore to hear more about you comment in #38 and the HRC evolving from Zoroasters?

    And the movie Avatar may be illustrating how devil spirits enter and control individuals. Wow, that is weared, huh Ray?

  51. on 01 Apr 2015 at 10:18 pmJas

    2 Peter 1: (kjv)
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    This verse is just proving the validity of a scriptural Prophecy, not what happens to it after.
    The cult of Sol Invictus aka Mithraism was what Constantine declared christianity to be. Zoroaster was a proclaimed prophet of Mithras from around 700bc.
    There is many papers on it.
    Btw 38000 was your number of denominations not mine, was it not accurate

  52. on 01 Apr 2015 at 11:23 pmRay


    I believe it’s important to remember that the Bible does not contain the entire vocabulary of God, just as it does not contain all the works of Jesus.

    I don’t know if God has or will ever speak of himself, Jesus, and the holy Spirit as a Trinity. I don’t believe I can rightly say that he never will, or that he never has.

    I don’t have access to those teaching tapes I heard many years ago. Even back then they were not for sale, but were a part of a teaching series.

    I’ve never seen Avatar. Don’t know what it’s about. I know that Jesus was in the world and the world was made by him, and that many have received instruction from him, and of whatever light that was received of him by men, certainly much of it got passed around and used in many ways. Even the Devil will use some of the light from God and corrupt it.

    I do believe that God has spoken to us through his Son and trust he will continue to do so, as he has in the past. He might do some new things, and I trust there are some things he’s done that will not be repeated.

    I do believe it’s possible to preach the gospel without the use of the word Trinity, or Triune, and without many terms we might hear of today, which may very well be ways which were not heard at some times in the past. I believe we have the Bible as clear evidence that it can be done without such terms.

    Just because a term doesn’t appear in the Bible, that by itself, doesn’t mean that we may not use it.

  53. on 02 Apr 2015 at 9:24 amTimoteo


    I mostly thought of 33,000 different denominations in America and vaguely remember doing another Google and finding the 38,000 number and quoting it to you. So anyway it is counted, there are certainly too many.

    I just copy/pasted:

    “The Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimated 34,000 denominations in 2000, rising to an estimated 43,000 in 2012. These numbers have exploded from 1,600 in the year 1900.”

    I am sure the IRS has a good tally with the tax exempt registered churches. I sure would not sit down and count myself. Making a private interpretation or not rightly dividing brings all the numerous doctrines.

    This pamphlet/book, Babylon Mystery has many similar explanations:


  54. on 02 Apr 2015 at 10:16 amJas

    Yes this book is very interesting. He taps many resources to base his conclusions on but the resources are all that interest me. I draw my own conclusions steering clear of agendas .
    My only agenda is to remove as much of the deception to give the truth the opportunity to be exposed. If I cause others to do the same then maybe more truth can be exposed.

  55. on 02 Apr 2015 at 3:00 pmTimoteo


    Thank you for all you have revealed here on Kingdom Ready.

  56. on 03 Apr 2015 at 9:24 pmTimoteo


    your #52

    “I believe it’s important to remember that the Bible does not contain the entire vocabulary of God, just as it does not contain all the works of Jesus.”

    Yes, and the bible contains all we need to know to be “kingdom ready”!

    2 Peter 1: (kjv)
    3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

    “I don’t have access to those teaching tapes I heard many years ago. Even back then they were not for sale, but were a part of a teaching series.”

    Well it sure was a profitable investment of the many hours of your time to sit through the series. This is evident by the way you handle GODs magnified word here on KR.

    “I’ve never seen Avatar. Don’t know what it’s about.”

    Maybe someone, perhaps, maybe even JAS would explain about the devil taking control, un-holy spiritually, and manipulating and controlling persons.

    “I do believe it’s possible to preach the gospel without the use of the word Trinity, or Triune, and without many terms we might hear of today, which may very well be ways which were not heard at some times in the past. I believe we have the Bible as clear evidence that it can be done without such terms.”

    AMEN to that!

    The words trinity and triune do not occur anywhere in the “gospel/good-news” we preach/teach.

    These words are used when describing the PAGAN religious doctrines that have been forced into pure Christian doctrine by the HRCC.

    To all you all….have a happy resurrection Sunday celebration.

  57. on 04 Apr 2015 at 7:28 amRay

    Some use the term Triune to refer to Jesus or God. Sometimes they both seem to be a bit triune to me.

  58. on 08 Apr 2015 at 8:56 amRay

    Always seems to be somebody that wants to defend the Trinity, but isn’t there something better to defend, like our liberty in Jesus? To be a disciple of his, is it so important to try to make others into our image and likeness, or to make them conform to whatever we are like all the time? I often wonder, what is their point? Is it that their doctrine is correct? If so, what’s so important about that? Is it that they must be so correct?

    Maybe I miss the point. Yes, I believe we have liberty in Christ to use our own ways of describing things, and having perspectives on some things, and may view God in our paradigm at times, but I think some people go way too far.

    Likewise with some who don’t like what they do.

    If we don’t quite understand the doctrine of the Trinity, they always go to the next thing, which is the deity of Jesus, as if we don’t understand that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and that the Word was God, or something, or that everything was made by him who is called the Word of God.

  59. on 08 Apr 2015 at 11:49 amTimoteo


    Jas commented in #51:

    “The cult of Sol Invictus aka Mithraism was what Constantine declared christianity to be. Zoroaster was a proclaimed prophet of Mithras from around 700bc.”

    Perhaps Jas would share more about how Constantine squeezed the trinity idea, myth, doctrine into the early Holy Roman CC and so forth.

  60. on 08 Apr 2015 at 6:48 pmRay

    Would a fact such as Islam being about one God, mean that Biblical Unitarians were influenced by Islam?

  61. on 08 Apr 2015 at 7:05 pmJas

    No islam was influenced by People of the book, Jews and Christians. Most early muslims read the gospels of Jesus and the Torah and the Prophets of the OT. Even today most muslims honor Jesus as the Prophet like Moses. Other than Christians influenced roman church most Christians were Unitarians and lived under the protection of Islamic leaders. Still today Islamic countries protects Jews and Christians most of which are unitarian . There is a rich history of the unitarian church from the time of the Apostles some 500 years before islam came.

  62. on 08 Apr 2015 at 7:28 pmRay

    Because Constantine was a Trinitarian, does that mean that all those who consider Jesus to be triune, are wrong in doing so?

  63. on 08 Apr 2015 at 7:44 pmJas

    Constantine was not a trinitarian nor was he a Christian . He believed in the Sun God ,he just used the writings about Jesus because he thought Jesus was the incarnation of the Sun God which under many names existed 1000’s of years before Jesus. Yes the worship of Sun God had a trinity but the father and son were the same. Otherwise the father made a human woman pregnant than who gave birth to a son who was just the father being reincarnated .

  64. on 08 Apr 2015 at 10:42 pmRay

    I assumed Constantine was for the doctrine of the Trinity.

  65. on 08 Apr 2015 at 11:32 pmRay

    At any rate, some Christians might worship Jesus at times, thinking of him as the Triune God.

  66. on 09 Apr 2015 at 8:54 amTimoteo


    There are many things others are doing, things that differ from what you, Jas and myself believe are Christian practical.

    I can not find any evidence that the Apostles carried out Matthew 28:19, baptizing in name of F, S & HG.

    Actually, from Pentecost til today, only Jesus Christ does genuine baptism and with holy spirit.(only GOD is the Holy Spirit)

    Someone, allegedly found a genuine, 1st century, original manual prescribing the practices for water baptism for the Christian church.

    First, there are no, real, surviving, original Christian scrolls from the first century. These have either dissolved to dust or where hidden away by the HRCC.

    Second, the Didache Manual reads like a HRCC religious ceremonies script. Perhaps written to make their errors seem legitimate.

    Third, you, Ray, KR writer, manifested speaking in tongues, just like Cornelius did with his household when GODs word was spoken. They, when the Apostle Peter spoke the gospel and you when it was taught in a prolonged, pre-recorded on cassettes, class.

    Jesus did not require anyone to worship him.

    Mark 10: (kjv)
    18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

  67. on 10 Apr 2015 at 1:41 amRay

    Difficult for me to imagine a Christian not worshipping Jesus. Don’t know if that’s even possible. Maybe there’s more ways than one to baptize people in the name of the Father, Son, and holy spirit. Doesn’t the Bible say that Jesus was made a quickening Spirit? (I Cor 15:45…Maybe because of verses like this some talk about Jesus being “of the same substance of the Father”, etc.)

  68. on 10 Apr 2015 at 3:23 amRay

    When it comes to so many things of the Spirit, we really do not know half of what we think we do, which is why it’s important to not rely so much on our own understanding. (Prov 3:5)

  69. on 10 Apr 2015 at 8:53 pmTimoteo


    1 Corinthians 12: (NASB)

    1 Now concerning spiritual, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.

  70. on 12 Apr 2015 at 6:23 amTimoteo


    Carefully re-read Jas #63.

    All these things about Constantine are contained in an accurate study curriculum of World History.

    Why do you think the HRCC Christians have been “Hoodwinked”?

  71. on 12 Apr 2015 at 4:13 pmRay


    What are HRCC Christians?, and why do you think I think they have been “Hoodwinked?

  72. on 12 Apr 2015 at 7:48 pmTimoteo


    Sorry, I did not mean to offend you, or that you personally think they have been hoodwinked. Rather figuratively inferring, the revelations Jas has shared about Constantine do not seem to be known, believed or held to as biblical truths.


    He, Constantine was believing in and practicing a pagan religion which worships a Sun god, not the GOD and father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    For power, pagan activities were mixed with similar Christianity doctrines.

    The Catholic church is often referred to as the Holy Roman Catholic Church (HRCC) and Constantine’s empire, The Holy Roman Empire.

    There is no point in listing all the many differences, here, we are only discussing the trinity, which was added without any Judo/Christian scriptural evidence.

  73. on 13 Apr 2015 at 5:41 amRay

    It seems to me that the Trinity is a matter of interpretation as to whether or not it has legitimate substance, and that it came about as a matter of interpreting scripture.

    I don’t think God insists upon being worshipped as the Trinity. As a matter of fact, I’m not even sure if he likes it very much.

    It seems to me that many people make too much of it.

  74. on 13 Apr 2015 at 9:01 amTimoteo


    You write:

    “It seems to me that many people make too much of it.”

    Ray, you have spent many, many years reading and writing on this Living Hope Kingdom Ready blog, hearing all the “too much of it”. So you certainly know all the different sides of the trinity controversy.

    “I don’t think God insists upon being worshipped as the Trinity. As a matter of fact, I’m not even sure if he likes it very much.”

    I, indeed, agree with you, because there is nothing in word or concept about any trinity for GOD, Jesus Christ or holy spirit to be found in the Old or New Testaments.

    What GOD does not like is IDOLATRY.

    There is a new class, live, every Tuesday. It will help one to become Kingdom Ready.

    Inside Out Class

    Join teacher Vince Finnegan as he explains the keys to breaking through addiction and bad habits that hold you back from being all you can be for God. Inside Out runs each Tuesday from 7-9pm from April 7th to May 26th (eight weeks) at Living Hope.


  75. on 13 Apr 2015 at 6:33 pmRay

    It seems to me that taking ourselves too seriously can be a form of idolatry. Sometimes we just need to lighten up a bit, and let others be who they are, and be where they are at.

    We won’t always have the same perspective on some things and we ought not to become law enforcement officers to every jot and tittle to the extent that if something isn’t exactly appearing in scripture, we want to make some kind of citizen’s arrest on somebody for saying, or describing something that doesn’t exactly appear that exact way all the time.

    We ought to let God be the judge of some things, especially any gray areas.

    Yes, religion will have it’s fog sometimes, and I want to be more for clarity than fog.

  76. on 13 Apr 2015 at 7:26 pmRay

    Suppose God is basically neutral on the doctrine of the Trinity, as if he’s basically neither for or against it, but will be against someone making too much of it, or even being too much against it.

    Isn’t that entirely possible?

  77. on 13 Apr 2015 at 7:29 pmRay

    I’ve often found a type of witness among people such that whenever they are too much about, or too much against something, especially if it’s one of those gray areas, that I don’t sense the peace of God coming through them. I don’t at those times sense the peace of God being the rule.

  78. on 13 Apr 2015 at 9:24 pmJas

    God has strong feelings about how we understand him since he was very clear about it all through out the bible. In the OT when the people of Israel defined God by the beliefs of the pagans he brought foreign nations against them, brought about long periods of drought, floods and so on.
    Now while I am not sure if the true church exist today but if they do they do not believe in false doctrines about God nor would Jesus lead a church that does.
    Why would God punish multitudes for mixing paganity with his word then just be neutral about it now ?

  79. on 13 Apr 2015 at 10:31 pmTimoteo


    “We won’t always have the same perspective on some things and we ought not to become law enforcement officers to every jot and tittle to the extent that if something isn’t exactly appearing in scripture, we want to make some kind of citizen’s arrest on somebody for saying, or describing something that doesn’t exactly appear that exact way all the time.”

    I have never had the feeling that you were going to make “some kind of citizens arrest”. You write what you believe to be the truth.

    And the title of this thread, “The Trinity brings out an Ugly Spirit!”, is where we got started on the topic of trinity.


    I too believe that GOD has revealed all about himself in the scriptures.

    And that Jesus leads a church that does not believe and follow false doctrines about his and our GOD and heavenly father.

  80. on 16 Apr 2015 at 8:56 amRay


    Do you think you hold to any false doctrines?

  81. on 16 Apr 2015 at 6:44 pmRay

    Suppose a Trinitarian tells me that Jesus is God, and by that he does not mean that Jesus is the one who begat Jesus, but I think that is what he is saying by that. Does that make the Trinity doctrine a false doctrine, or does that mean I was a poor listener?

  82. on 17 Apr 2015 at 1:49 amTimoteo


    #80 “Do you think you hold to any false doctrines?”

    I once was lost and now am found.


    #81 “Does that make the Trinity doctrine a false doctrine, or does that mean I was a poor listener?”

    2 Timothy 2: (kjv)
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

  83. on 17 Apr 2015 at 8:12 amRay


    Yes anyone can type up scripture, but that doesn’t mean they are a Christian or a follower of the truth does it?

    Do you believe Jesus was with God in the beginning, before the world was made, and that God made all of it by his Son, Jesus?

  84. on 18 Apr 2015 at 4:10 pmJas

    Do you think you hold to any false doctrines?

    Unfortunately I am certain there is some deception I hold. Problem is reproof by research is limited to history be written and controlled by the victor.
    One thing I am 100% sure of is I have NEVER met a true christian and am pretty sure they were persecuted into extinction 100’s of years ago by the Holy Roman Church and the Protestant reformation.
    Probably those who were caught performing miracles were burnt as witches and the rest killed and ancient literature burnt to protect the false church

  85. on 18 Apr 2015 at 9:35 pmRay


    In answer to your question above, none that I know of.

  86. on 19 Apr 2015 at 5:42 pmJas

    I did not ask you did but its fair you answered it. All of the 30000+ denominations will claim the same and claim all other denoms follow false doctrines.
    I myself want to know and have proof something is the truth

  87. on 22 Apr 2015 at 8:54 amRay


    Do you suppose that 30,000+ denominations (if it is that) accounts for at least 30,000 (as a minimum, considering that only one false doctrine could cause “the division”) false doctrines?

    If we were to list those that we know of, I wonder how many we could account for.

    In Jesus’ day there was John and his disciples, and then there was Jesus and his disciples. Neither one of them had a false doctrine that I know of.

    I wonder if one of the false doctrines is that false doctrines are the reason (the only reason) we have so many denominations today.

  88. on 22 Apr 2015 at 4:49 pmJas

    Pretty much every denomination thinks they are the elect and the others need their teachings.
    Actually it is caused by many combinations of false doctrines that brings the possibilities beyond 30000+ . There might only be 10’s of false doctrines but they can be shuffled 1000’s of ways. This is what causes denoms

  89. on 22 Apr 2015 at 8:27 pmRay


    What caused John and his disciples to be a separate group from Jesus and his disciples?

  90. on 23 Apr 2015 at 2:44 amRay

    Different bills have different faces on them, but it’s the same money, though the amount of it’s value is different.

    One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase, the scripture says.

  91. on 24 Apr 2015 at 12:30 pmJas


    In what way was John and his disciples a separate group with different beliefs . Yes there was some that learned from John before Jesus came to John who maybe learned later about Jesus. But even before ,John preach of the one who the spirit of God would indwell and live amongst mankind so all they were lacking was the confirmation.
    So you think it would be ok to deceive someone by telling them a $1 note is the same as a $100 note or weeds will feed them like corn will or waste water is good to drink as clean.

  92. on 24 Apr 2015 at 8:57 pmRay

    I know of no separate beliefs of John’s group of disciples as you suggest. I believe this may be an example of what we might think of as two denominations.

    Is it required somewhere that to be a denomination, it must have different beliefs than any others?

  93. on 25 Apr 2015 at 2:03 amTimoteo


    Denominations is a word that can refer to money or to differences in beliefs/doctrines within a religion.

    Two thousand years ago, during John the baptists call to repentance and Jesus teaching about entering the Kingdom
    of YAHWEH, there was simple one GOD Judaism and many gods paganism’s.

    “One GOD Judaism and many gods paganism’s.”

    Today, there are still many pagan gods and only one Christian/Hebrew GOD, YAHWEH.

    Jas has ferreted out, that a certain pagan religion was introduced by the holy Roman Empires founder Charlemagne, which brings believing in a triune, three in one, god. To the Jew/Hebrew, this system is rubbish and idolatrous.

    Jas, points out again, that it seems difficult to find the “True” church amidst the many thousands of so called denominations of the Christianized.

    With wars and rumors of wars pressing, perhaps one should try to attend this Kingdom Ready sponcers, study group:

    “Berean Bible Study

    Join us twice a month on the 2nd and 4th Mondays from 7-9pm for bible study. Let’s search the scriptures together to discover what they really say. Discussion is encouraged and all are welcome to participate. We meet in the conference room at Living Hope. For more information, please contact John Cortright–”


    And avoid this ride:


  94. on 25 Apr 2015 at 5:48 amRay

    Denomination by it’s definition is more about having a name.

  95. on 25 Apr 2015 at 5:52 amRay

    I’m thinking that Jesus is a triune God and that there is only one of him.

  96. on 25 Apr 2015 at 10:10 amJas

    Wouldn’t you rather know by proof rather than just follow a perception that was founded some 300 years after the Apostles taught the faith of Jesus? Why not make Jesus four,five, six ,so on and on because you have the same biblical proof doing so? Absolutely NONE

  97. on 25 Apr 2015 at 10:53 amRay

    It seems to me that those of a true Berean spirit, would search diligently to see if some of the things said by people are indeed true, and they would use all of the scriptures, and look to see, not if they are said verbatim, but to see if indeed such things are true.

    But those that would borrow from the name, not being as true Bereans, might be something a bit different.

  98. on 25 Apr 2015 at 10:56 amTimoteo


    You seem to have too many incomplete definitions which in sequence make for a confused understanding and perception.



    Did you learn this following in you biblical cassette class:

    Standing and State

    Your Standing=
    GOD in Christ in You

    Your State(being in fellowship)=
    You in Christ in GOD

    1 John 1: (kjv)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

  99. on 25 Apr 2015 at 8:48 pmRay

    Denominationalism may be something, but where does anything say that in order to be a denomination, a group must have a doctrinal difference with others?

    The definition of denomination is more about having a name than about having differences.

    What I have found by searching the scriptures to see if something is so, is that Jesus did in fact exist with the Father before the world was made and it was in fact made by Jesus.

    This I found out by apparently being more noble than some who apparently claim to have something in common with the Bereans.

  100. on 25 Apr 2015 at 11:23 pmJas

    Each denomination has their own statement of faith even tho some may be very close each group has a doctrine of inclusion while claiming exclusion of ALL others who do not follow their beliefs or traditions. Even within there are those who exalt themselves because they think they are more noble than others.

  101. on 26 Apr 2015 at 5:43 amTimoteo


    “The definition of denomination is more about having a name than about having differences.”

    Well then, Ray, what is the name of your denomination?

    “This I found out by apparently being more noble than some who apparently claim to have something in common with the Bereans.”

    How then, Ray, are you apparently more noble than the apparent 2015 CE/AD

    “What I have found by searching the scriptures to see if something is so, is that Jesus did in fact exist with the Father before the world was made and it was in fact made by Jesus.”

    When then, Ray, did Jesus, “a quickening spirit”, begin his existence?

    Jas then, has given you, Ray, a perfect explanation for the current existence of so many manifold denominations of Christianity:


    Each denomination has their own statement of faith even tho some may be very close each group has a doctrine of inclusion while claiming exclusion of ALL others who do not follow their beliefs or traditions.

    Even within there are those who exalt themselves because they think they are more noble than others.”

    Acts 17: (kjv)
    11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    So then, Ray, when did you receive the word with all readiness of mind?

    And then finally, Ray, what did the Thessalonians have to say about their search for the trinity in scripture?

  102. on 26 Apr 2015 at 7:20 amRay


    Search the scriptures and see if you can find that Jesus was with the Father before the world was made, and if everything that was made was made by him. It in there.

  103. on 26 Apr 2015 at 10:14 amTimoteo


    I have not found anything, nor chapter, verse or words saying Jesus was before he was born.

    There is prophesy of him coming:

    Genesis 3: (kjv)
    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Ray, what is the name of your denomination?

  104. on 26 Apr 2015 at 6:00 pmRay


    Keep looking. There’s plenty of scripture on Christ, the Word of God who was with God in the beginning, who being in the image of God, created all that is made, who’s coming in the flesh was prophesied of old.

    So when did Jesus begin? I suppose he could be as old as God the Father himself. To me it’s like asking how old God is. Questions such as those are like gnats, while his existence…. larger than a camel.

    Right now, I’m not affiliated with any particular denomination.

    We will not find a verse of scripture that reads verbatim, “Jesus of Galilee lived with his Father in heaven before he was born of Mary.”, but it’s given in scripture.

  105. on 26 Apr 2015 at 8:29 pmTimoteo


    I am affiliated with this Kingdom Ready blog with you and Jas as the most active participators these days, wonderfully so.

    Sean, our host is my pastor and I ascribe to the hosts lhim.org doctrines and teaching classes. Much like the same sort of class we both took years ago, but changed from the dispensationalism method of interpreting GODs word.

    I have a few thing where I differ with my beliefs just as I differ with you some times. However GOD will be the judge as to whether or not we are correct on what we think he has revealed.

    Jas has fantastic mega knowledge about the background and history of the Jew/Hebrew religion and the difficulties which brought many false doctrines to the early Christian church and how many are still with us to this day.

    So maybe the reality is that Ray, Jas and Timoteo make up a very unique trinity denomination of three, since we spend many hours a week fellowshiping here on Kingdom Ready.

  106. on 27 Apr 2015 at 9:11 amRay

    So what can we do as Christians to prevent an ugly spirit from rising up as a result of Trinity doctrine?

    Let’s first understand that Christ’s existence is more than just flesh, and that in the beginning, before anything was made, there was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (or holy spirit if you prefer), and that our perspectives on some things may vary a bit, and that we might communicate things a bit differently at times, and even use words a bit differently. (Isn’t that why there are so many definitions to so many words in our dictionaries?)

    And let’s understand that we don’t have to make everyone come to be just like ourselves, as if we are the image and likeness of God. Jesus is. Let’s strive to become a little more Christ like.

  107. on 30 Apr 2015 at 8:15 amTimoteo


    “So what can we do as Christians to prevent an ugly spirit from rising up as a result of Trinity doctrine?”

    Well, we can pursue studying the scriptures “to stand approved unto GOD”( 2 Timothy 2:15) just as Jesus did:

    Luke 2: (kjv)
    46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

    Just as Jesus, a man, is approved:

    Acts 2: (kjv)
    22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    For many, believing that Jesus is GOD, is an error made in a careless moment, so let’s not be too hard on people who occasionally mix them up.

    There are many verses which could have and should have been translated differently.

    For example, John 1:1:


    Ray writes:

    “Let’s strive to become a little more Christ like.”

  108. on 01 May 2015 at 7:47 amRay


    Do you believe that honoring Jesus as God the Father, calling him God, or the mighty God, or saying simply that he is God, is an error made in a careless moment?

  109. on 01 May 2015 at 8:20 amTimoteo


    Yes I believe that it would be careless to believe:

    “Do you believe that honoring Jesus as God the Father, calling him God, or the mighty God, or saying simply that he is God, is an error made in a careless moment?”

    Without searching the scripture to see if it is so. 2 Timothy 2:15

    One does not fully believe or be fully persuaded without GODs word, rightly divided, which is truth.

    Perhaps Jas might reply better than I have ?

  110. on 01 May 2015 at 9:38 pmRay

    By searching the scriptures we can be certain that Jesus is God Almighty. (I am saying this by comparison)

    I could also say this: We can be certain that Jesus is God Almighty, the one and only. (as long as we are talking about Jesus being one and only one here, also understanding that God the Father is also God, and that Jesus and the Father do make one God, for there are no differences between them.)

    Such things we may find out by diligently searching the scriptures.

  111. on 02 May 2015 at 7:32 amJas

    All i can add is an amendment to the title of article

    “The Trinity brings out an Ugly Powerful Evil Spirit!”

  112. on 02 May 2015 at 9:18 amTimoteo


    A roger on that… and I plan on following Sarah’s link to hear Sean Finnegan’s teaching today.

    “Sean will be presenting “The Kingdom Is Too Jewish: Exploring the Intersection of Allegorizing and Judaizing vis-à-vis Millenarianism” tomorrow @ 1:30 EST. (today Saturday the 2nd)

    They are streaming live but having some connection issues that will hopefully be cleared up soon.

    The full schedule can be found here:”


  113. on 10 May 2015 at 8:25 amRay

    I remember being at one meeting once, and the man started out by asking “Is there anybody here that doesn’t believe Jesus is God?”
    There was silence. I trusted it was a loaded question, something a bit foggy. Did he mean that “by comparison”, or what? Maybe I should have asked.

    I suppose to many there it meant, “Is anyone here not a Trinitarian?”

    I wasn’t sure what to make of it.

    Sometimes I wonder if it’s a game people like to play.

    When I get to heaven, am I going to be somebody else? Won’t I be myself, but without any sin. That is my hope. Yet I hope to be changed for the better.

  114. on 11 Apr 2018 at 10:42 pmTony

    During my 20 years as a JW, I left 3 years ago, the one topic in our door to door ministry that always bought out the worst in so called “Born again Christians who have Jesus in their hearts” was when the discussions turned to the trinity. I remember leaving one particular house & as we walked down the driveway a woman probably in her mid 50’s screaming “I hope you burn in hell you b****”
    As Jesus said We will know them by their fruit


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