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A Long Lost Hope

  

by Bethany Reise

In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul writes that there is but one hope to which believers have been called (Eph 4:4). Most Christians have been taught that the hope they are awaiting is eternal life in heaven, to which their immortal soul will depart after death. They would be surprised to find out that this is not the hope to which Paul was referring. Paul was speaking of the resurrection of the righteous which is to occur at the second coming of Christ. It is only at this time that the dead who have been sleeping in their graves will be awakened and clothed with immortality. They will live and reign with Christ in the kingdom of God which is to be established on the earth at the end of the age.

At this point most would argue, “Well, what about when Paul said that he would ‘prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord?’” (2 Cor 5:4) “Or,” they contend, “When Paul said that his ‘desire to depart and be with Christ?’ Surely that proves that his hope was to die and immediately be in heaven with Christ!” (Phil 1:23). However, interpreting Scripture while under the influence of Greek philosophy is a dangerous idea. One must abandon the influences of pagan philosophy and adopt the perspective of the Hebrew writers of the Bible in order to understand Paul’s hope, the hope of all believers.

While the early church was growing, Paul implored believers adhere to the truth and warned them of the dangers of “philosophy and empty deception” (Col 2:8). Paul’s admonitions went unheeded, however, and Greek philosophy started becoming entangled in Christian belief, before it was finally welcomed into Christian tradition by the early church fathers. Platonic philosophy asserts that a separate and immortal soul inhabits the body while it is alive, but after death the soul is released from the body, departing to another realm. By the second century, the Platonic philosophical thought had made its way into the writings of influential church theologians and writers, such as Tertullian, Origen, and Augustine.1 They adopted the belief that man was an immaterial and immortalized soul, housed in a physical body. Upon death, they asserted, the disembodied soul of the believer departs from the body and goes to heaven. Under their care, the precious hope of the apostles and all the faithful of times past were exchanged for a false hope.

Therefore, since most are under the influence of Greek philosophy, one must adopt a Hebraic understanding of the nature of man when trying to understanding Paul’s statements about the hope he professed. The Bible teaches that man is mortal. As author Greg Deuble rightly states, “The stubborn fact is that there is not one passage to be found anywhere in the Bible that teaches man has an immortal soul.”2 God also defined mortal man as a living soul. In Genesis 2:7, the author states that “the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen 2.7). So, the “equation” for man is as follows: “body + breath of life = living soul.”3 Man is a living soul; he is not some sort of combination of a physical body and an immaterial soul.

Accepting this definition of the nature of man impacted the Hebrews’ understanding of death and life in the age to come. For the Hebrews, death was simple: when a person dies, they rest in the grave in a state of unconsciousness, much like sleep (Ecc 9:5, 6, 10; Ps 13:3, 146:3; Jn 11:11-14). It is in this state of unconsciousness that the dead wait, until they are resurrected on the last day (Dan 12.2). On the last day, the Messiah will come and the righteous will be resurrected or “wakened” and clothed with immortality. At this time, the final kingdom of God will be established on the earth and God will dwell with His people (Dan 2:44; Job 19:24-26; Is 25:8; Ez 37:23). Job expresses this hope in one of his discourses: “As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God” (Job 19:24-26). From this, it is evident that Job was anticipating that at future time after his death, he would be raised with renewed flesh. This raising was associated with his Redeemer coming to take his stand on the earth. This was the great hope to which the faithful of the past looked forward to, and the very same hope that Paul professed: the resurrection of the righteous, who would be clothed with immortality at the second coming of the Messiah.

Based on his letters to the early churches, it is possible to see that Paul’s eschatological view contained the same three basic elements as Job’s did, namely; the resurrection, the return of the Lord Messiah, and the change from mortality to immortality. These elements are evident in Philippians 3, where Paul expresses his hope of being awakened from the dead and receiving a new resurrection body at the second coming of Jesus, saying: “…If by any means I might attain to the resurrection from the dead… eagerly await a Savior from [from heaven], the Lord Jesus Christ… [who] will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body” (Phil 3:11,14,20). Clearly, Paul’s eschatological view was consistent with that of the Old Testament writers.

There are some however, who would disagree, citing certain verses that Paul wrote in his letters to the Philippians and Corinthians. In the eschatological view they propose, the hope of believers is an individual event separate from the return of the Messiah, where the disembodied, immortal soul of the individual is released from its physical body immediately after death. The return of Christ loses most, if not all, of its significance and the hope of the faithful of the Old Testament is nullified; what kind of hope is a resurrection from the dead at the return of Christ, if believers are already Him in heaven immediately after death? This is a contradiction of both the Old and New Testament Scriptures, and even Paul’s own words! Therefore, in order to resolve the conflict, one must compare the verses that are unclear to the ones that are more so, all the while keeping in mind the context of the author and the passage.

The context of Paul’s clear description of the resurrection in I Corinthians 15, serves to undermine the traditional orthodox belief and support Paul’s hope of the resurrection. This chapter provides a similar foundation from which to explain II Corinthians 5:8, one of the commonly cited proof texts for those whose hope is heaven. In this verse, Paul yearns to “be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord” (II Cor 5:8). By looking back only chapter earlier, the context of Paul’s remarks in chapter five are clarified. Just as in his first letter to the Corinthians, he is speaking of the resurrection hope at the second coming of Christ when he writes in his second letter, written only a year later, that “He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you” (II Cor 4:14). This directly correlates with the remarks of his first letter; “But now Christ has been raised from the dead… after that those who are Christ’s at His coming” (I Cor 15:20,23). Thus, it can be seen already that the two letters share common ground; namely the hope of resurrection at the coming of Christ.

This connection is strengthened further by Paul’s use of a trio of identical metaphors, making it reasonable to conclude that the thematic material of both chapters is the same.4 The first two of these metaphors are found to be located in close proximity to each other, even in the very same verse. The first describes the resurrected believer as being “clothed” and the second describes mortality as being “swallowed” up by immortality. In I Corinthians 15:54, Paul writes that when the perishable is “clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory”” (I Cor 15:54). He echoes this statement in II Corinthians 5:4: “we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life” (II Cor 5:4). Paul’s third parallel revolves around the idea that salvation in Christ will arrive from heaven. In I Corinthians 15:47, Paul writes that “the second man is the Lord [arriving] from heaven” (I Cor 15:47). Later on in his second letter, Paul relates that the immortality that he so “earnestly desires to be clothed upon with [is the] house which is from heaven” (II Cor 5:2). According to Cambridge biblical scholar, John A.T. Robinson, to say that II Corinthians 5 suggests this, would be “to read the passage in clear opposition to 1 Corinthians 15.”5 Thus, through these three repeated words and phrases found in both I and II Corinthians, an apparent unity in Paul’s eschatological view emerges.

Clearly, based upon the correlations between the two letters to the Corinthian church, it may be ascertained that there is but one hope to which Paul was referring, and it cannot possibly be a departure of the soul to heaven immediately after death. In fact, Paul expresses his horror at the very thought of such a prospect, when he adamantly stated “we do not wish to be unclothed” nor be “found naked.” Therefore, when Paul writes that he would “rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” he cannot possibly mean that he desires to be a disembodied soul in heaven before the return of Christ, because he just condemned that notion only a few verses earlier! Rather, Paul is eagerly anticipating the time when he will become immortal-an event which cannot be separated from the return of Christ. He is speaking of his two simultaneous desires, to be both “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.” He did not say “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,” that is a dangerous misquotation.6 Therefore, there is no doubt that Paul remains consistent in his writings: the hope of Christians lies in the immortality that is to be realized at the return of Christ.

In light of Paul’s obvious aversion to the prospect of becoming disembodied, arguments over the other common “proof-text,” Philippians 1:23, dissipate quickly. In this verse, Paul says that he has a “desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better” (Phil 1:23) that to continue to live on in the flesh. If Paul is so strongly against the idea of being without a body, it is unreasonable to maintain that this verse suggests this. Paul’s remarks must be read in context and with respect to his character, which reveals Paul’s true motivation is to exalt Christ, either through his life or his death. As author Greg Deuble notes, “One this in sure: Paul is not seeking to escape his ministry by death just so that he can get some personal and selfish benefit,” as the traditional interpretation of Philippians 1:23 implies.7 This would be contrary to his character and his hope. Rather, in this verse, Paul is once again expressing his hope that he “may attain to the resurrection from the dead,” at which time, he would finally be with Christ for eternity (Phil 3:11).

Paul never wavered in his position that there is but one hope. Somewhere along the way however, the church lost sight of this hope. Yes, they propose that there is hope, but it is a different hope than the Bible presents. This false hope has presupposed immortality, effectively clouding over the reality that the precious gift of immortality is only to be given to the righteous at the second coming of the Messiah. Thus, the very hope that the entire New Testament has been trending towards is overlooked entirely, greatly diminishing the significance and unspeakable joy of the future resurrection of the dead and the glorious return of Jesus Christ. It is time to lay aside the false hopes and traditions, and to take hold of that which has been promised to us: resurrection from the dead, immortality, and eternal life in the kingdom of God on the earth. It is time to reclaim the lost hope of the church.


1| Bacchiocchi, Dr. Samuele. Popular Beliefs: Are They Biblical?. http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/popular_beliefs/2.pdf

2|Deuble, Greg S. They Never Told Me THIS in Church!: A Call to Read the Bible with New Eyes. Restoration Fellowship, 2006, p 295.

3|ibid., p. 296.

4|ibid., p. 320.

5| Robinson, John A. T. In the End, God – A Study of the Christian Doctrine of the Last Things. London: James Clarke & Co, 1950, p 106.

6|Deuble, 322.

7| ibid., 325.

by Bethany Reise

261 Responses to “A Long Lost Hope”

  1. on 11 Jan 2013 at 3:56 amWolfgang

    Hi

    Most Christians have been taught that the hope they are awaiting is eternal life in heaven, to which their immortal soul will depart after death.

    I would say that in most Christian denominations and groups people are taught that they will go to heaven without resurrection … in many cases there may not be any reference to “immortal soul” doctrines … The error is not in “eternal life in heaven”, but in going to heaven “without resurrection”!

    They would be surprised to find out that this is not the hope to which Paul was referring. Paul was speaking of the resurrection of the righteous which is to occur at the second coming of Christ. It is only at this time that the dead who have been sleeping in their graves will be awakened and clothed with immortality.

    The resurrection of the dead would occur “in the last day”, in connection with “the coming of the Lord”. Yes, at that time, hades (gravedom .. the realm of the dead) is emptied and the righteous who died before that are raised to eternal life, while for the unrighteous who lived prior to that time are raised to face judgment. Now, what is with those people who are alive at that time and afterwards? The righteous are changed (and do not go to hades, since hades has been destroyed) and immediately receive eternal life in the presence of God, the unrighteous have already been judged and are lost.

    They will live and reign with Christ in the kingdom of God which is to be established on the earth at the end of the age.

    This is a common misconception … those believers living on earth are already in the kingdom prior to the end of their earthly life (like Paul acknowledged that he was in the kingdom … cp Col 1:13) but receive eternal life in the presence of God at the end of their earthly life when they are changed.

  2. on 11 Jan 2013 at 11:05 amJas

    Wolfgang
    How does your belief deal with Jeremiah 31 especially the last verse

    31:38 “Indeed a time is coming,” 90 says the Lord, 91 “when the city of Jerusalem 92 will be rebuilt as my special city. 93 It will be built from the Tower of Hananel westward to the Corner Gate. 94 31:39 The boundary line will extend beyond that, straight west from there to the Hill of Gareb and then turn southward to Goah. 95 31:40 The whole valley where dead bodies and sacrificial ashes are thrown 96 and all the terraced fields 97 out to the Kidron Valley 98 on the east as far north 99 as the Horse Gate 100 will be included within this city that is sacred to the Lord. 101 The city will never again be torn down or destroyed.”

  3. on 11 Jan 2013 at 3:53 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    here are some thoughts regarding the passage from Jer 31:38-40:

    It seems to me that it is talking about a new city which was one of the promises made to ancient Israel, and so I view it as a “covenantal” matter. I consider this prophecy to be speaking of the same matter as we read in Heb. 8:8-13 about God’s “new covenant”, which at the time of writing of Hebrews (ca. 64-65 A.D.) was in the process of being fulfilled (which is indicated by the writer in v. 13 and the use of the “present, passive, indicative verbs” (“becoming obsolete”; “growing old”; “ready to disappear”) when it is speaking of the then-present situation with a look to the very near future. The “old” covenant was passing away at that time.

    The verse in Jer 31 are speaking of the “new Jerusalem” to be, which is the “Jerusalem” which Paul declares in Gal. 4:26, i.e., to be the “Jerusalem above”; the “heavenly Jerusalem.” We can see in Paul’s allegory of Sarah and Hagar there, how he is making a comparison to the “then-present Jerusalem” (i.e., physical Jerusalem) and the “Jerusalem above” (i.e., new spiritual Jerusalem) which was then soon-to-come! It is the same as the “holy city, new Jerusalem” which John saw coming down out of heaven (cp. Rev. 21:2-3, which was a part of the New Heaven and Earth of v. 1).

    In addition, these passages compare perfectly with the words of the writer of Hebrews in Heb. 12:18-29. I think you can see, how my understanding of this “city” in Jer 31 is that the prophecy is about a “spiritual” city!

  4. on 11 Jan 2013 at 4:39 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    I am trying very hard to understand why you believe what you do which I find it very important to at least try to understand where all beliefs come from.
    I can not follow your logic in how you spiritualize a passage that gives a literally physical place where the city will be rebuilt such as valleys,hills,towers gates and even where dead bodies and animal ashes are thrown .Can you provide any references that state any of these places existed ever in heaven or the means that dead bodies and animal ashes can be thrown into a place in heaven.

  5. on 12 Jan 2013 at 12:33 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    I am not “spiritualizing” … I am considering biblical topics and concepts in light of the overall scope of Scripture, one of the main points is that the physical, earthly, temporal of the OT age points to and finds its fulfillment in the spiritual, heavenly, eternal of the NT age.

    There was a “physical, earthly, temporal Jerusalem” … its “counterpart” in fulfillment is the “spiritual, heavenly, eternal Jerusalem”. There was a physical (made of stone), earthly, temporal tabernacle/temple … it pointed to and found its fulfillment NOT in another physical, earthly but eternal temple, rather in a spiritual, heavenly, eternal temple … the Jerusalem from above, the church body which is not made of stone, is not temporal, etc.

    Speaking of the temple, of God’s habitation … in OT age it was the physical, earthly, temporal temple as a foreshadow of the NT temple, habitation of God, which is not a physical building of stones, but which is the church of the body, and its nature is spiritual (cp Eph 2:19-22). Despite this rather clear truth about the church of the body (the new Jerusalem from above) being God’s habitation, many “kingdom” folks claim that this habitation of God will again be succeeded by another earthly, physical Judaism temple which will have to first be built and then again be destroyed, etc …

    The fact that physical things are described in detail in expressions does not necessitate that the expression must always be understood in its literal sense and cannot be part of a figure of speech. Cp. parables … they contain descriptions of physical things and persons and activities with details, but are those parables therefore “real stories”, that is, are they not parables but reports about some real people and real event? Of course not, no matter how much details are mentioned about something in a parable , it remains a parable, a figure of speech, teaching a particular point of truth which has nothing literally to do with the details mentioned.

  6. on 13 Jan 2013 at 2:47 amWolfgang

    Hi,

    the article above statees

    Job expresses this hope in one of his discourses: “As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, yet from my flesh I shall see God” (Job 19:24-26). From this, it is evident that Job was anticipating that at future time after his death, he would be raised with renewed flesh.

    “from my flesh” … does NOT say “in my renewed flesh” ! The first part of Job’s statement makes clear that he anticipates his skin and flesh to be destroyed”. I would think that Job — as all of mankind are — was very aware of the truth of “dust thou art and to dust shou shalt return”, don’t you? what Job expresses there already gives the true meaning of the “FROM [my flesh]” in the immediately connected and following phrase of his statement. The meaning of “from” is clearly “away from”, “without” and certainly not “in” (as some translations erroneously have), which would contradict the first part of Job’s statement!

    Trying to avoid such obvious contradiction by assuming a different “flesh” [as in the article with “RENEWED flesh” is unwarranted and contradicts the overall teaching of the Scriptures regarding resurrection and being clothed with a “heavenly dwelling” (cp 2Co 5). Paul uses the “heavenly dwelling” in the same meaning as “spiritual body” … and I would say, Paul — just as Job – was not thinking of some kind of “spiritual fleshly body” or “heavenly earthly body”

  7. on 13 Jan 2013 at 3:59 amWolfgang

    Hi

    Somewhere along the way however, the church lost sight of this hope. Yes, they propose that there is hope, but it is a different hope than the Bible presents. This false hope has presupposed immortality, effectively clouding over the reality that the precious gift of immortality is only to be given to the righteous at the second coming of the Messiah.

    Various denominations may presuppose in their teaching immortality (of the soul) with their doctrine of “going to heaven immediately upon death”, others sort of hold to the necessity of a resurrection, which they place into the yet future “end of the world”, and yet still teach about a dead believer going to heaven upon death, that is somehow being with God without and prior to resurrection … both ideas propose hope that is not Biblical and as such represents false teaching.

    Indeed, immortality is dependent on the resurrection becoming reality with the coming of the Lord at the last day. However, is the idea that “immortality is only to be given to the righteous at the second coming of the Messiah” correct? What about those who live AFTER the coming of the Lord at the last day (the end of that age) and believe on Jesus as the Messiah and are thus among “the righteous”? When do they receive immortality, seeing that the coming of the Lord is already in their past?

    Thus, the very hope that the entire New Testament has been trending towards is overlooked entirely, greatly diminishing the significance and unspeakable joy of the future resurrection of the dead and the glorious return of Jesus Christ.

    See above … what about those who live at and after the coming of the Lord? Are they excluded or do they not have the possibility to believe on the Messiah and thus be righteous? or is there nobody born and living anymore on earth after the coming of the Lord ?

    It is time to lay aside the false hopes and traditions, and to take hold of that which has been promised to us: resurrection from the dead, immortality, and eternal life in the kingdom of God on the earth.

    Believers on Christ are already living in the kingdom of God on earth …. cp. Col 1:13 (“13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us [note the tense of “hath translated”]. It’s just that this kingdom is not an earthly political kingdom, but rather it is in nature “not of this world”, just as Christ himself testified when asked whether he was a king or not.

    It is time to reclaim the lost hope of the church.

    When did Christ and his apostles and Paul expect the Lord’s return, the so-called “second coming of Christ”? When do churches expect this coming?

  8. on 13 Jan 2013 at 4:01 amWolfgang

    oops …. the bold marking in my above post should have only been for “hath translated us”, but not for the text in […] and the rest … perhaps a moderator can fix that for me, please?

  9. on 13 Jan 2013 at 9:10 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    I get your point with the bracketed portion:

    “Hath translated us [note the tense of “hath translated”].”

    Your point being “a *loud* we have already been translated(moved to another dimention after being changed)”!

    I think of it as a figurative “translated”, in process towards Christ’ return where and when it will come into fruition actual.

    Just as:

    Ephesians 1: (kjv)
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    VPW taught we are seated with Christ, which I believe is only a figure of speech(which one I know not). With the spirit of truth indwelling, the “Christ in you”, it is we, are, just as well, with Christ when in fact we will only be with him when he returns.

    But with the holy spirit connection it is “figuratively” like having a “teletyping machine hookup now”. Then, when he returns we will have face to face communication, when our salvation is completed.

    Right now we are closer than when we first believed, but we have not reached the ziel yet.

    You have written:
    “When did Christ and his apostles and Paul expect the Lord’s return, the so-called “second coming of Christ”? When do churches expect this coming?”

    A) For some it is like the opa promised to take the young boy to the Tiergarten. The young boy is now an old man, the opa has long been dead and buried and the man is confused about the seemly broken promise. But just like Job, even having his children restored, the young boy has his hope renewed when he believes again that “GOD may be last minute, but never is late”.

    B) For others they are so sore disappointed that they believe the whole thing is /has been a hoax. They sell there home and cash in all their gold Krugerrand coins and take a train to Hamburg-Altona. Then straight to the Reeperbahn and Herbert Stzz. He uses up all his cash and moves to live in the Bahnhof as a beggar. A *Jesus Freak Hippy* reads to him the parable of the prodigal son. And tells him that the angles in heaven will rejoice if he will repent and get back in the race. Now he lives again for the anchor of his soul, hopes and endures the race.

    Hebrews 6: (kjv)
    9 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

    1 Corinthians 9: (kjv)
    24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OdZIfafAlaU

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  10. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:24 amWolfgang

    Timothy

    A) For some it is like the opa promised to take the young boy to the Tiergarten. The young boy is now an old man, the opa has long been dead and buried and the man is confused about the seemly broken promise. But just like Job, even having his children restored, the young boy has his hope renewed when he believes again that “GOD may be last minute, but never is late”.

    it was not a “seemingly broken” promise, it was in fact a broken promise!
    I would say that – unlike an “Opa” — God will not break His promise!

    For others they are so sore disappointed that they believe the whole thing is /has been a hoax.

    And — if indeed what had been promised did not come to pass — they could be right about it being a hoax … BUT, I would say, that what God promised comes to pass as promised and therefore will not be a hoax. If what God promised does not come to pass as promised, then God becomes a liar …

    Since I believe that what God promised did come to pass as promised, when I hear or read that supposedly God’s promise did not come to pass as promised, I do not question God’s promise but rather question the reliability of those interpreters who claim that what God promised did not come to pass as promised. I would think of those interpreters as being mistaken or perhaps being liars, but consider God to be true and His promis as having come to pass … and I look to see where those interpreters must have gone wrong and how God’s promise could have come to pass

  11. on 18 Jan 2013 at 10:48 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    I am satisfied that we agree and have unity with so many biblical issues.

    It is hard to believe that there are those on the other thread, who are unable to understand about human beings and spirit beings. Who do not have the basic pfal principals, which are there on your website, to rightly divide GODs word.

    I wonder how much of their theology is coming from listening to the radio and not from their own reading the scriptures as 2 Tim 2:15.

    There are many strange and hard to grasp things written in GODs word that I understand as much as my bird brain can consider.

    Genesis 6: (kjv)
    1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

    2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    We know about this strange flesh and where it came from.

    5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    A little more is revealed:

    2 Peter 2: (kjv)
    4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    Jude 1: (kjv)
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    What is revealed in these scriptures has nothing to do with preteristism and I understand a little about angels, good or evil, and spirit and flesh and blood. About the perfect payment for our salvation being a 100 % human being without his freedom of will compromised. And again I rejoyce when I read your writing about this subject because it edifys me.

    I wil simply sit on the sideline and read about you conviction for preteristism.

    Timothy

  12. on 18 Jan 2013 at 11:10 amJas

    Wolfgang
    Again you are forgetting that the only sign given to this evil nationality was the sign of Jonah. In the story of Jonah God commands Jonah to declare God’s JUDGEMENT upon the city and the people. We find that judgement was destruction of the city and death of the people with no ” If” attached or declared. Even the King knew there was no ” If” but out of desperation commanded everyone to fast,pray and repent.Nowhere does God state in this story that ” If” they repented he would not destroy the city or cause the people to die.
    So when you claim that if we don’t believe what you believe we are calling God a liar it is by your lack of understanding the sign of Jonah that compels such a claim

  13. on 18 Jan 2013 at 12:30 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    Again you are forgetting that the only sign given to this evil nationality was the sign of Jonah. In the story of Jonah God commands Jonah to declare God’s JUDGEMENT upon the city and the people. We find that judgement was destruction of the city and death of the people with no ” If” attached or declared.

    I would say that when Jesus spoke to his audience and declared to them that there would be no sign given TO THEM except for the sign of Jonah, that he was not saying in effect that they would be told the same as Jonah told the Ninivites (which is what you seemingly are thinking)

    Rather, Jesus was speaking about something which was pertinent to his audience and brought to their attention the events of what happened in the days of Jonah by declaring that these would be a sign to them. He further emphasized this in mentioning that they had someone greater preaching to them … Jesus’s message to them was in essence the same as Jonah’s message had been to the Ninivites … but they did not adhere to the sign given to them, thus they refused – contrary to the Ninivites – to repent.

  14. on 18 Jan 2013 at 12:45 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    What would have come if this nation would have repented? You seem to think the same would have come.
    You seem to understand that hindsight provided these people with 2 paths but you then ignore that Jesus spoke of both paths and only accept that one path or better put as one outcome came to pass

  15. on 18 Jan 2013 at 2:23 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Let me give an answer to my question.From what I understand the disciples were taught many things during his 3+ year ministry and his 40 days after his resurrection . They were told to flee to the mountains when they seen certain signs that judgement was coming to this nation and they thought the timeframe was 40 days after his resurrection for these signs to take place and when these signs did not take place they believed that God had accepted that this nation had repented on the account of those that followed Jesus therefore the Kingdom of Israel would be restored and they themselves would sit in judgement of the tribes of Israel and those found worthy would be priest to the nations.
    It is without reason to claim the Apostles did not understand almost 4 years of teaching by Jesus then claim that someone who never met or had conversations with Jesus could.

  16. on 19 Jan 2013 at 10:16 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    so with your answer in post 15, were the apostles correct with their understanding of a 40 day timeframe (which matches the time between resurrection of Jesus and his ascension) and that the judgement had not come because – as with niniveh – God had shown mercy because of the believing of those few among the Jews who followed Jesus? or was their understanding of the matter incorrect?

  17. on 19 Jan 2013 at 10:23 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    oops … klicked “submit comment” too early … had wanted to add the following to my above comment:

    I think that your answer is incorrect and that the apostles understanding (the one you propose they had) is not what I read from comparing the scriptures relating to the topic. Certainly the judgment did come as prophesied … but not after the 40 days, rather after 40 years!

    Furthermore, Jesus had never claimed that the nature of his reign was a political kingdom nor did he teach that the earthly nation of Israel would be restored as a political kingdom …

  18. on 19 Jan 2013 at 10:45 amJas

    Wolfgang
    Considering Jesus only corrects the timeframe that the apostles understood from reading Jonah I would say it is without a doubt their understanding of the nature of the kingdom was correct and their understanding that these signs leading to the destruction that Jesus gave as warning were only one possible outcome with the other being the Kingdom of Israel being restored as almost 4 years of teaching from Jesus had taught them.
    So yes they thought that mercy had been given because of those who had followed Jesus and no I dont think their understanding of the nature of the Kingdom could be incorrect only the timeframe when the signs must take place.

  19. on 19 Jan 2013 at 11:45 amJas

    NASB ©Acts 1:3
    To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

    Wolfgang
    You whole belief in this matter hinges on this verse being true or not.
    Is it true or not?
    If you say yes then let the stacking of blocks begin with the next block being that Jesus words fell on deaf ears or the apostles were just to ignorant to comprehend .

  20. on 19 Jan 2013 at 2:39 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    NASB ©Acts 1:3
    To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

    Wolfgang
    You whole belief in this matter hinges on this verse being true or not.
    Is it true or not?

    my belief does not at all hinge on this verse …
    I consider what is stated in this verse to be true.

    As for the correct understanding of the term “kingdom of God” …now, already the term “kingdom OF GOD” should be sufficient to understand that this is NOT speaking about a political earthly kingdom, seeing that “God” is not a political king nor does He have a political nation as His domain …

    Apparently however, the apostles were not quite understanding the matter fully, since they did not even ask about “the kingdom of God”, but rather were talking about a different matter, namely a restoration of Israel as an independent kingdom …

  21. on 19 Jan 2013 at 3:10 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    The term Kingdom of God means a Kingdom setup by God which is what Israel was to always be.
    No it is not apparent that the apostles lacked any understanding but you belief requires that Jesus failed to teach them the future of Israel or the apostles were to ignorant to understand. So by admitting verse 3 is true that Jesus did teach them the nature of the Kingdom during the 40 days but claim the Kingdom was taught to them a spiritual you now have to reject verse 6 as false or reduce the apostles to a bunch of retards who after 3 1/2 years of following Jesus and 40 days of being personally taught matters concerning the Kingdom could not even comprehend something spiritual from physical. And you get your understanding from the same retards.
    I personally would not reduce any of the apostles to retards to be right .

  22. on 19 Jan 2013 at 7:09 pmJas

    Dr. John McLean
    B.R.E., William Tyndale College
    TH.M., Dallas Theological Seminary
    M.A. Near Eastern Studies, University of Michigan
    Ph.D. in Near Eastern Studies (Biblical), University of Michigan

    “The terms “Israel” and “Israelite” occur 32 times in Luke-Acts. In each occurrence the terms refer to the people of Israel as a national entity. Therefore it seems correct to understand that the disciples’ question in Acts 1:6 referred to a restoration of a kingdom to the nation of Israel. They were asking Jesus about the timing of the future restoration of the Davidic kingdom of Israel as described and defined in the Old Testament

    These disciples, however, were the same ones to whom Jesus had explained the Scriptures (Luke 24:32), whose minds He had opened to understand the Scriptures (v. 45), and with whom He had spent 40 days speaking about the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3). Therefore it is highly unlikely they would have thought He meant to alter the meaning of the kingdom by excluding its national, political character. Therefore rather than correcting the disciples’ understanding of a kingdom He led them to expect a kingdom at some undisclosed time period.”

    Dr. Larry R. Helyer is Emeritus Professor of Biblical Studies at Taylor University where he taught for 29 years. He holds a BA in Psychology and Bible from Biola University, an MDiv from Western Baptist Seminary, a certificate in Middle Eastern Studies from Jerusalem University College, and a PhD in New Testament from Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, California.

    “The disciples have had the benefit of forty days of postresurrection instruction about thekingdom of God (1:3). Luke specifies that the question about the time of restoration was immediately prior to the ascension. In other words it was their last question. It seems psychologically improbable that the issue of national restoration had not come up for discussion prior to that moment. According to Luke, as late as the last supper the disciples had been quarreling about who was to be the greatest in the kingdom (22:24). This must have involved leadership in the new commonwealth. Therefore if Christ never intended to restore Israel nationally he surely would have addressed that burning issue. Yet we have this question in 1:6. I conclude that the point of the question could hardly have been whether there would be a restoration but, rather, when it would occur”

    John Michael Penney
    Australian College of Theology

    “The ministry of Jesus focused, in part, on correcting false doctrine and rebuking errant teachers. However, it is noteworthy that Jesus did not correct the disciples’ question about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. Therefore in view of the consistent ministry of Jesus to correct the disciples when they were in error, it seems correct to conclude that in their question in Acts 1:6 they properly anticipated a future restoration of the kingdom forIsrael”

  23. on 20 Jan 2013 at 1:10 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    have you really not realized that there will never again be a restoration of the biblical political kingdom nation of Israel?
    Jesus clearly prophesied that their house would be left desolate to them (Mt 23:38 “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” cp Lk 13:35) as well as that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a different nation (Mt 21:43 “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” )

    So then, should we adhere to those scholars you quoted, who basically contradict what Jesus taught about the kingdom of God?

    There is NO prophecy that after their rejection of the Messiah there would be a restoration of the “nation of Israel” as in terms of the “OT Davidic kingdom”.
    The prophecies in the OT which speak about restoration or return to the land, etc . either (a) were about the return after the Babylonian captivity (and thus have already come to pass), and/or (b) were conditional on the repentance of Israel as a nation … which DID not happen, has not happened and will not (CAN NOT) happen anymore because of the judgement which was already executed on Israel as a nation in harmony with what Jesus prophesied (and which – btw – Moses already had prophesied would happen if they forsook YHWH .. cp various places in Deu)

    As far as salvation or restoration to the people of Israel is concerned, it has nothing to do with their political nation/kingdom or natural descent .. rather “all Israel [that is, anyone from among the circumcision, the tribes of Israel] may be saved” by the same manner as is the case with any other human being => by faith on Jesus as the Messiah (cp. Rom 11)

  24. on 20 Jan 2013 at 1:44 pmJas

    “have you really not realized that there will never again be a restoration of the biblical political kingdom nation of Israel?
    Jesus clearly prophesied that their house would be left desolate to them (Mt 23:38 “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” cp Lk 13:35) as well as that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a different nation (Mt 21:43 “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” ) ”

    Wolfgang
    What house is the speaking of Judah,Levi or Essau who converted to Judaism during the 2nd temple age.

    as far as Israel is concerned I think God declares it clearly in Jeremiah

    31:35 The Lord has made a promise to Israel.

    He promises it as the one who fixed the sun to give light by day

    and the moon and stars to give light by night.

    He promises it as the one who stirs up the sea so that its waves roll.

    He promises it as the one who is known as the Lord who rules over all. 84

    31:36 The Lord affirms, 85 “The descendants of Israel will not

    cease forever to be a nation in my sight.

    That could only happen if the fixed ordering of the heavenly lights

    were to cease to operate before me.” 86

    31:37 The Lord says, “I will not reject all the descendants of Israel

    because of all that they have done. 87

    That could only happen if the heavens above could be measured

    or the foundations of the earth below could all be explored,” 88

    says the Lord

    “There is NO prophecy that after their rejection of the Messiah there would be a restoration of the “nation of Israel” as in terms of the “OT Davidic kingdom”.

    so you reject Jeremiah to be right also or has fixed ordering of the heavenly lights were to cease to operate before God

    There are many more verses you have to reject to be right but you have freewill to do so.

  25. on 20 Jan 2013 at 1:53 pmSarah

    Wolfgang,

    This has not yet happened. It is clearly speaking of the restoration of Zion AFTER her rejection of the Messiah. And there is no evidence whatsoever that it has been invalidated.

    Isa 49:6 he says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

    Isa 49:7 Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: “Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

    Isa 49:8 Thus says the LORD: “In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages,

    Isa 49:9 saying to the prisoners, ‘Come out,’ to those who are in darkness, ‘Appear.’ They shall feed along the ways; on all bare heights shall be their pasture;

    Isa 49:10 they shall not hunger or thirst, neither scorching wind nor sun shall strike them, for he who has pity on them will lead them, and by springs of water will guide them.

    Isa 49:11 And I will make all my mountains a road, and my highways shall be raised up.

    Isa 49:12 Behold, these shall come from afar, and behold, these from the north and from the west, and these from the land of Syene.”

    Isa 49:13 Sing for joy, O heavens, and exult, O earth; break forth, O mountains, into singing! For the LORD has comforted his people and will have compassion on his afflicted.

    Isa 49:14 But Zion said, “The LORD has forsaken me; my Lord has forgotten me.”

    Isa 49:15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.

    Isa 49:16 Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are continually before me.

    Isa 49:17 Your builders make haste; [fn] your destroyers and those who laid you waste go out from you.

    Isa 49:18 Lift up your eyes around and see; they all gather, they come to you. As I live, declares the LORD, you shall put them all on as an ornament; you shall bind them on as a bride does.

    Isa 49:19 “Surely your waste and your desolate places and your devastated land– surely now you will be too narrow for your inhabitants, and those who swallowed you up will be far away.

    Isa 49:20 The children of your bereavement will yet say in your ears: ‘The place is too narrow for me; make room for me to dwell in.’

    Isa 49:21 Then you will say in your heart: ‘Who has borne me these? I was bereaved and barren, exiled and put away, but who has brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; from where have these come?'”

    Isa 49:22 Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; and they shall bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders.

  26. on 20 Jan 2013 at 1:57 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    Jer 31:37 The Lord says, “I will not reject all the descendants of Israel because of all that they have done.”

    “There is NO prophecy that after their rejection of the Messiah there would be a restoration of the “nation of Israel” as in terms of the “OT Davidic kingdom”.

    so you reject Jeremiah to be right also or has fixed ordering of the heavenly lights were to cease to operate before God

    No, I do read and consider Jeremiah as well … and as with any other passage of Scripture, I do also endevor to understand it in harmony with the overall scope of Scripture. Thus I do not understand it in a manner which would contradict what Jesus or his apostles said about the matter …

    Most certainly, YHWH will not reject ALL the descendants of Israel …which I mentioned already in my previous post. There has always been a remnant … but the remnant is NOT equated with Israel as a whole or Israel as a nation !!

    And those of the nation of Israel who desire to be saved have the same way open to them as any other human being from outside the nation of Israel as well => by faith in Jesus as the Messiah !

  27. on 20 Jan 2013 at 2:01 pmJas

    31:33 “But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel 74 after I plant them back in the land,” 75 says the Lord. 76 “I will 77 put my law within them 78 and write it on their hearts and minds. 79 I will be their God and they will be my people

    Wolfgang
    When do you see the renewed covenant coming into effect?
    Was Israel planted back into their land in the 1st century or were they still scattered amongst the nations?
    See your belief makes God a liar, not mine

  28. on 20 Jan 2013 at 4:21 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    When do you see the renewed covenant coming into effect?
    Was Israel planted back into their land in the 1st century or were they still scattered amongst the nations?
    See your belief makes God a liar, not mine

    I would think that Jesus knew what he was talking about when he said the kingdom of God would be taken from them (the nation of Israel) and given to another nation …

    I don’t think that God is a liar … nor is Jesus

  29. on 20 Jan 2013 at 4:42 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Do you even know what house this was addressed to, it nowhere states that it would be taken from the nation of Israel.
    Actually it was addressed to those who were the seed of Abraham who said they were never in bondage and all the 12 tribes had been in bondage .Why did this house not know his voice, it was because they were not of his stock.
    Maybe you should take some time to understand most of the jews in the land of judea were in fact edomites who converted to Judaism with most of the true offspring of judah,benjamin and levi leaving in ares outside judea .
    Even though I certainly believe Jesus understood ,it is not his words I reject but is yours which you make up to prove your right by which makes God a liar.

  30. on 20 Jan 2013 at 5:01 pmJas

    1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand here 26 looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven 27 will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.”

    Wolfgang
    Do understand why these were addressed as Men of Galilee instead of Men of Judea ?
    Maybe its time !

  31. on 20 Jan 2013 at 7:10 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Why then?

  32. on 20 Jan 2013 at 11:52 pmJas

    Timothy
    There are many accounts written on 2nd temple judaism and the history of judea during that time which shed light on who the jews were in judea but in and about 200 bc there was a forced conversion of all edomites but when the remnant of Judah returned they return to a nation occupied by edomites because the edomites were driven from their land. Samaria after the Northern kingdom was taken into captivity was replaced with foreigners who were taught the hebrew faith. king herod was not even an israelite nor were most of the pharisees . Most of the true remnant of judah lived in areas around judea.

  33. on 21 Jan 2013 at 1:43 amtimothy

    Jas,

    Yes, that is why we have the later Aramaic OT/NT bible. (translated into English by George Lamsa. Where, one may learn that, actually the same word for “rope” also means “camel”.) FYI:

    http://www.lamsabible.com/

    I actually had another, two part answer in mind.

    Part 1)

    Acts 1: (kjv)
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    A) these were the 11 disciples; less Judas Iscariot, who just after committed suicide and was replaced, by another man from Galilee, by casting lots.

    B) these are also 11 of the 12 disciples, who first manifested and spoke in tongues after being baptized by Jesus Christ with holy spirit and fire.
    (did you speak in tongues when Jesus Christ baptized you with holy spirit?)

    Acts 2:
    7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

    Part 2)

    Quote

    “In Luke Jesus appeared to the Eleven on the day of the resurrection (Luke 24:33-36); John records that it was Thomas who was not present at this appearance of Jesus before his disciples and that it was one week later that Jesus appeared to the Eleven when Thomas was also present with them (John 20:24,26)”

    end Quote

    *This attached teaching, was written by our *renowned*, KR Bible Scholar, and is an example of careful reading of all scripture about a subject and then, like *CSI Miami*, re-assembled, with intelligence, into a work of art teaching. I decided that for all to learn the principals of interpreting the bible accurately, it is best to copy/paste.*

    Quote

    “When did Judas Iscariot kill himself?”

    “The above comment regarding the apparent contradiction between Luke 24 and John 20 is actually quite problematic in itself; it does give the information contained in those biblical records accurately but then sort of fabricates this contradiction because of an assumption which is not even mentioned in the comment itself, i.e. the assumption that Judas killed himself either immediately following or shortly after his betrayal of Jesus. In order to solve this apparent contradiction it is necessary to include the records about Judas and to clarify when Judas actually did kill himself.

    Luke 24:33-36 records that Jesus appeared to the Eleven, and from John we know that Thomas was not with them at this particular time. If Jesus appeared to eleven of the twelve apostles, and if according to John 20:24 Thomas was absent, then it is evident that Judas was alive at that particular time and that he was among the apostles present. Regarding the appearance one week later, it is only mentioned that Jesus appeared to his disciples and that Thomas was present at this time. That Judas was still alive after the resurrection of Jesus and that he was with the apostles is also clear from other records in Scripture where it is mentioned that Jesus appeared after his resurrection to the Twelve (and not, as is erroneously read into those verses, to the Eleven!) and was seen of them (1 Corinthians 15:5, Acts 1).

    In Matthew 27:5 it is said about Judas, “And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.” This is always understood to mean that Judas went and killed himself immediately following this event. But there is no mention of such a time element. From Acts 1:18, the words spoken by Peter in the days between the ascension and Pentecost, it appears that Judas only killed himself during that period of time on his own field which he had purchased with the “reward of iniquity” (this reward of iniquity cannot have been the 30 pieces of silver which he had received from the high priests for his betrayal, because he had thrown those into the Temple, according to Matthew 27:5). Also, we should note that the words translated “hanged himself” can be translated “was choked up in himself”, and be understood as describing how he now, apparently feeling sorry in some way, was emotionally under quite some pressure. But, this term does not (and from considering the other passage in Acts 1, it cannot) mean, that Judas then already killed himself by strangling himself (“hanged himself”).

    The record in Acts 1 mentions at first that Jesus was together with those 12 apostles he had chosen. These were the original 12 apostles, including Judas (Luke 6:13-16). These were obviously together with him until shortly before or perhaps even during his ascension. Only immediately after Jesus’ ascension we notice a change in what is happening in the words of the two men (angels) who now spoke to the apostles and addressed them as, “Ye men of Galilee …” (Acts 1:11) These words are remarkable because Judas came from Kerith in Judea; he was the only one of the original 12 apostles who was not from Galilee. He obviously must have left the place of the ascension right around this time. When the apostles who were left and who then returned to Jerusalem are named in the following record, Judas Iscariot is missing for the first time.

    Judas was again in the group of the apostles and disciples during the 40 days in which Jesus showed himself alive. It is quite remarkable to see the great willingness Jesus had to forgive and the great love with which Jesus walked. The promises Jesus made to the apostles included Judas, but it was Judas who was seemingly not willing to receive and acknowledge the forgiveness available to him and to change his life; instead he was caught more and more in self-condemnation and self-pity which finally drove him to the decision to kill himself.”

    end Quote

    Timothy

  34. on 21 Jan 2013 at 2:21 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    you mention Jer 31:33 above as reading

    31:33 “But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land, …”

    which translation are you using?
    As I looked up a few translations I did not find any with “after I plant them back in the land”, but rather with “after those days …”

    Jer 31:33 (KJV)
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, …
    Jer 31:33 (NASB)
    For this is the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, …

    Seems clear to me that the translation you are using has a certain bias showing which caused the translators to even change the text …

  35. on 21 Jan 2013 at 2:24 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand here 26 looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven 27 will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.”

    Wolfgang
    Do understand why these were addressed as Men of Galilee instead of Men of Judea ?

    Yes, I do … because the 11 folks to whom the angel was talking were men from Galiiee! This is affirmed also in Acts 2 where people in the temple were mentioning that the 11 apostles (as well as Matthias, who had been added to them) were natives of Galilee

    Maybe its time !

    Time for what? Reading more carefully ? not interpreting into the text ?

  36. on 21 Jan 2013 at 9:51 amJas

    31:28 In the past I saw to it that they were uprooted and torn down, that they were destroyed and demolished. But now I will see to it that they are built up and firmly planted. 62 I, the Lord, affirm it!”
    31:29 “When that time comes, people will no longer say, ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but the children’s teeth have grown numb.’ 64 31:30 Rather, each person will die for his own sins. The teeth of the person who eats the sour grapes will themselves grow numb. 65

    31:31 “Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, 66 “when I will make a new covenant 67 with the people of Israel and Judah. 68 31:32 It will not be like the old 69 covenant that I made with their ancestors 70 when I delivered them 71 from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” 72 says the Lord. 73 31:33 “But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel 74 after I plant them back in the land,” 75 says the Lord. 76 “I will 77 put my law within them 78 and write it on their hearts and minds. 79 I will be their God and they will be my people. 80

    31:34 “People will no longer need to teach their neighbors and relatives to know me. 81 For all of them, from the least important to the most important, will know me,” 82 says the Lord. “For 83 I will forgive their sin and will no longer call to mind the wrong they have done.”

    Wolfgang
    I would have thought that you could read maybe a few verses before that to set the context of who,when and what but maybe I was wrong. You seem to like to ignore anything that is against your belief.
    Yes all 11 were from area not part of Judea, You would find if you did the research that most of the remnant of Judah settled in areas outside of Judea because foreigners had taken of almost all the southern kingdom while they were in exile. You will also find that most of judea was edomite converts in 1st century bc and ad. The edomites were very scrict on how to be apart of Judea and Judaism requiring circumcision to be considered a citizen of judea or to even hear the word preached.Jesus called these converts the synagogue of Satan,Jews who were not jews, Cains offspring or they said they were never in bondage but Abraham was their father which could only be edomites who father was esau

  37. on 21 Jan 2013 at 10:11 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    I would have thought that you could read maybe a few verses before that to set the context of who,when and what but maybe I was wrong. You seem to like to ignore anything that is against your belief.</blockquote<
    now, why is it that I have that very impression about your posts?

    Yes all 11 were from area not part of Judea, … </blockquote<
    So what is wrong with what I wrote ? Nothing!

    You would find if you did the research that most of the remnant of Judah settled in areas outside of Judea because foreigners had taken of almost all the southern kingdom while they were in exile. You will also find that most of judea was edomite converts in 1st century bc and ad. The edomites were very scrict on how to be apart of Judea and Judaism requiring circumcision to be considered a citizen of judea or to even hear the word preached.Jesus called these converts the synagogue of Satan,Jews who were not jews, Cains offspring or they said they were never in bondage but Abraham was their father which could only be edomites who father was esau

    this has nothing to do with what is recorded and what we are told in Acts 1:11 !
    It does show your tendency of interpreting things which you know from some other passage in Scripture into passages which however are not even related … thus coming up with interpretations which “sound interesting” but which are entirely out of context

  38. on 21 Jan 2013 at 10:13 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    I would have thought that you could read maybe a few verses before that to set the context of who,when and what but maybe I was wrong. You seem to like to ignore anything that is against your belief.

    now, why is it that I have that very impression about your posts?

    Yes all 11 were from area not part of Judea, …

    So what is wrong with what I wrote ? Nothing!

    You would find if you did the research that most of the remnant of Judah settled in areas outside of Judea because foreigners had taken of almost all the southern kingdom while they were in exile. You will also find that most of judea was edomite converts in 1st century bc and ad. The edomites were very scrict on how to be apart of Judea and Judaism requiring circumcision to be considered a citizen of judea or to even hear the word preached.Jesus called these converts the synagogue of Satan,Jews who were not jews, Cains offspring or they said they were never in bondage but Abraham was their father which could only be edomites who father was esau

    this has nothing to do with what is recorded and what we are told in Acts 1:11 !
    It does show your tendency of interpreting things which you know from some other passage in Scripture into passages which however are not even related … thus coming up with interpretations which “sound interesting” but which are entirely out of context

  39. on 21 Jan 2013 at 10:35 amJas

    Wolfgang
    Does not the previous verses set the context to when the renewed covenant is offered to the house of judah and the house of Israel or the whole house of Israel after they are gathered and made one nation again which would never again be plucked from the land. Does not God promises count for anything with you.

    “But now I will see to it that they are built up and firmly planted. 62 I, the Lord, affirm it!”

    Actually all have have done was to properly research who,what and when are being addressed , something you could do yourself if you werent afraid your belief could fail.

  40. on 21 Jan 2013 at 6:33 pmJas

    Wolfgang brought this up in another comment thread but fits better in this one besides the other has 355 comments so far

    Lk 17:20 (KJV)
    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    By the way, this statement of Jesus also does away with the idea that the kingdom of God is an observable political nation … as so many here seem to believe.

    350 Jas
    Lk 17:20 (KJV)
    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    By the way, this statement of Jesus also does away with the idea that the kingdom of God is an observable political nation … as so many here seem to believe.

    Wolfgang
    so your belief requires the kingdom tocome with out observation,much like death.
    This also does away with the idea that the kingdom of God is a observable spiritual nation with resurrected people who could observe it.
    The context of this verse is when not the nature of it . This question is almost the same as Acts 1:6. The timeframe is set by God and as we find in Acts Jesus doesnt know and is therefore not observable for Us

    on 21 Jan 2013 at 3:47 pm351 Wolfgang
    Jas

    so your belief requires the kingdom tocome with out observation,much like death.

    no … my belief is that the reign of God is spiritual in nature, therefore “not with observation”. Matters of the spiritual realm are without observation, whereas the setting up of a political nation can be observed by anyone and everyone.

    This also does away with the idea that the kingdom of God is a observable spiritual nation with resurrected people who could observe it.

    who was being addressed with this statement ? were those resurrected people? obviously not. The point is not about whether or not those who are in the kingdom will notice what’s going on and observe God’s reign …. the point of the statement was plain that God’s reign does NOT come (is not set up) with the folks living at the time seeing it as they would be able to observe if it were a political earthly kingdom.

    The context of this verse is when not the nature of it .

    Well, the point is when (timeframe) it comes, it would be without observation … and that point is plain as day indicating that it will not be an earthly political kingdom (NOT “a kingdom of this world” ) which could be seen and observed by anyone and everyone,

    This question is almost the same as Acts 1:6. The timeframe is set by God and as we find in Acts Jesus doesnt know and is therefore not observable for Us

    while the timeframe was set by God, Jesus very well knew the “timeframe”, seeing that he prophesied at various occasions about the timeframe being “soon” and even “in this generation (his contemporaries)”, and he emphasized that the timeframe could be known by comparing the matter to (1) a woman expecting a child … she surely knows the timeframe, just not the day or the hour when labor will set in and the baby be born, and (2) the situation with a tree, when you see the leaves coming out, anyone giving the matter proper thought knows that the timeframe for summer to start is imminent.

    on 21 Jan 2013 at 4:04 pm352 Jas
    Wolfgang
    I am not surprised that you fail to understand the context of their question or of Jesus’ answer as being WHEN.
    The new moons,seasons and new year are observable and Jesus is just stating when is not observable.
    Nowhere does this verse even hint about the nature of the kingdom but as usual you twist to suit.
    Jesus gave signs that were observable for the Possible future destruction so equating it with the coming of the kingdom of God becomes impossible with this verse

    on 21 Jan 2013 at 4:30 pm354 Sheryl
    I get the impression from reading Luke 17:20 in context he is telling the Pharisees not to watch for signs because the kingdom is already in their midst, and after suffering and being rejected he will come again in a flash, like lightning. People will be acting like everything is the same as always and suddenly Jesus will make his second coming and establish the Kingdom on earth. If the kingdom of God is not “observable” then why is the kingdom described in detail the same way Noah’s ark was described?

    on 21 Jan 2013 at 4:41 pm355 Jas
    Sheryl
    Observable is in reference to when not the physical or spiritual nature of it or where it will be. But considering the days like the days of Noah are given with signs that are observable it is incorrect to equate the coming of the kingdom because Jesus says that “when” is not observable in this verse which means if the outcome of the sign of Jonah is God not destroying Jerusalem and the Temple then none of these signs will come before the Kingdom of Israel being restored which matches the expectations of the apostles in Acts 1 :6

  41. on 22 Jan 2013 at 6:35 amtimothy

    Wolfgang wrote,

    Sheryl,
    If the kingdom of God is not “observable” then why is the kingdom described in detail the same way Noah’s ark was described?

    I like the descriptions and mind pictures I get from just plain, old fashion American music I heard when I was 8 years old and going to Sunday school childrens fellowship(BTW, we are allowed two links per post):

    Southern, 1949, Alabama Bible Belt:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WnU6pcrKeYo#!

    Later, from eight grade on, I trained in military school and served as a soldier for GOD and my country. Now we have a elected dictator who has even taken GOD out of the mix.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VVF6uFanJxs

    1 Thessalonians 5: (kjv)
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    HOWEVER(loud voice)

    1 Thessalonians 5: (kjv)
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    faith, hope and agape LOVE

    1 Thessalonians 5: (kjv)
    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

    Are you Kingdom Ready?

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  42. on 22 Jan 2013 at 9:17 amSean

    On Luke 17.20-21 please see this post.

  43. on 22 Jan 2013 at 10:29 amJas

    Sean
    This article makes some very good points but the confusion starts when people mix the 2 verses. The first part is very simple because it is about the timing of it coming which Jesus clearly answers that there will be nothing to observe that will point to When it is coming unlike the alternate of the Sign of Jonah which is the destruction which Jesus gave many signs that were observable so that his followers could escape being subjected to it,but even in these warnings Jesus says this will not be the end by giving others events that must happen after the judgement of Judea.
    The second part is about after the kingdom is restored and is describing that when the kingdom is restored it wont be needed for someone to tell you its here or there because you will be able to recognize you are in the midst of it. Probably because it is so well described in the OT for those that accept God’s promises

  44. on 22 Jan 2013 at 10:38 amWolfgang

    Hi

    Sheryl had mentioned in another post (referenced above):

    I get the impression from reading Luke 17:20 in context he is telling the Pharisees not to watch for signs because the kingdom is already in their midst, and after suffering and being rejected he will come again in a flash, like lightning. People will be acting like everything is the same as always and suddenly Jesus will make his second coming and establish the Kingdom on earth.

    thinking about this, I am wondering where the idea comes from that the purpose of Jesus’ second coming is to establish the kingdom of God as a nation/political rule on earth?

    During his public ministry almost 2 millenniums ago, he mentioned that already at that time the kingdom of God was among those who heard him … Other writers if NT scriptures, such as Paul and John, mentioned that they already then were part of the kingdom … how can that be IF the idea about the kingdom of God/heaven is a political kingdom nation with Jesus as a political king ruler, seeing that Jesus actually refused and rejected such an idea when the multitudes on one occasion were desiring to have him as their “political king ruler, freeing them from Roman rule, caring for them with “miraculous social politics” … ?

    I read about the coming of the Lord, return of the Lord as being in judgment, in particular judgment exercising the wrath of God on his enemies. I read about Jesus giving warnings to his disciples concerning the day of the Lord and the coming of the Son of man (such as flee to the mountain regions to save their lives) … I do NOT read Jesus telling them about the coming of the Son of man being something which the disciples should be welcoming with joy and enthusiastic open air festival type activities and something to celebrate …

    Could it be that many church groups have taught their people a false picture of the return of Christ and thereby stirring up a false hope (such as “wow, when that day comes we will be knocking some heads, kicking some … and beating the devil over the head” type ideas) ?

  45. on 22 Jan 2013 at 2:23 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    I was really hoping this discussion would lead me to a better understanding of how one can have such a belief. With most of opposing beliefs for the most part I can find the cause of believing it but yours is without cause. It requires ignoring all of the prophets God given visions,plus ignoring all of Gods promises made from Abraham to those made through Moses and the Prophets and ignoring signs like the purpose that the story of Jonah and others set.
    Is there someone more knowledgeable then you on this beliefs who could show me how one can believe this without rejecting enormous portions of the bible.
    So far there are 3 beliefs I can not understand how one could belief it and all of them require rejecting enormous portions of the bible.The two others are the belief that Jesus was actually God and the belief there is no satan. All the rest I find the path to within the influences of the last 1850 years

  46. on 22 Jan 2013 at 3:11 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    Is there someone more knowledgeable then you on this beliefs who could show me how one can believe this without rejecting enormous portions of the bible.

    I don’t reject any portion of the Bible … I do not agree with certain interpretations of various passages of the Bible, since those interpretations are contrary to what the Bible overall teaches.

    So far there are 3 beliefs I can not understand how one could belief it and all of them require rejecting enormous portions of the bible.The two others are the belief that Jesus was actually God …

    A trinitarian will think that not to believe that Jesus is God requires rejecting enormous portions of the Bible … why ? Because he/she is convinced that his/her interpretation “is what the Bible says”, and any other understanding therefore of necessity must be rejecting those portions the Bible.
    Same with you … you regard your understanding in an absolute fashion as “this is what the Bible says”, and therefore if someone doesn’t agree with your understanding and interpretation, they must be “rejecting enormous portions of the Bible” … when in reality, it may just be the other way around.

    When I was a trinitarian, I was most definitely convinced that those who claimed that Jesus was not God were rejecting portions of the Bible. To me it seemed as clear as day that Jesus was of course God! How anyone could not see that, was beyond me … ! So then what happened? One day, I allowed their arguments to have the same value as my point of view had in my study … and I noticed that their arguments eventually made more sense than what I had been taught and had been convinced of. Only after I took that step and indeed evaluated more carefully what I learned, did I realize that the other point of view was actually far more what the Bible said than what I previously had thought was what the Bible said. And so eventually I rejected my previous belief that Jesus = God, and now believe that the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was not God.

    It’s the same with any other doctrine or belief … I used to believe in a yet future earthly political kingdom of God, a millenium of world-weide peace, ,etc … and eventually an earth which was like an utopia paradise with only good. Despite much effort to establish this doctrine for myself with detailed interpretations of the prophets, etc. … the dilemma of the rather clear teaching in the NT scriptures that the second coming of the Lord was to be soon and in their lifetime, and my belief that it somehow had not come to pass but was still future kept bugging me throughout 2 decades of involvement in Bible study. Finally, I decided to re-evaluate that belief of mine just as I had re-evaluated my Jesus=God belief many years before.

    See, I’ve been where you and many others here are in regards to the belief you hold about the future earthly political kingdom, about the future second coming of the Lord, etc … I know those arguments based on literal interpretations of many passages and the disregard and real “explaining away” of those passages which are indeed to be understood literally. None of those solved the dilemma … which someone (I believe it was Sean) years ago even formulated in a thread on this blog.

    I know how difficult it was for me to change from my trinitarian belief of Jesus is God to the belief that Jesus was not God, which I now regard to be in harmony with what the Bible teaches. I know how difficult it was to change from a futurist eschatological belief to a belief of realized eschatology.

    Thus, I am endeavoring to patiently write and post as best as I can setting forth the rather simple points of my current belief on this topic …. which – I know – surely is not quite as simple to someone who holds dearly to a futurist belief. Furthermore, the more someone has leaned out of the window the more difficult it is for them to get back in the window … in some cases, it is impossible and the only way is to fall down, get up and get back on track.

  47. on 22 Jan 2013 at 3:21 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    All I asked was if you knew someone because it is evident that you can’t provide me with the understanding on how someone could even belief this. But if you feel you are the utmost authority on it then I guess there is no chance of ever understanding how one holds this belief.

  48. on 22 Jan 2013 at 3:58 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    All I asked was if you knew someone because it is evident that you can’t provide me with the understanding on how someone could even belief this.

    oh, I know someone … YOU are the man.

  49. on 22 Jan 2013 at 4:09 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    You believe that I am more knowledgeable in your belief than you?
    Do you believe that this just a test from your superior in this belief?
    I can tell for sure I am not that person so if one exist then please refer me to that person.

  50. on 22 Jan 2013 at 4:38 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    it’s a simple true statement … you are the one who needs to take a step IF you actually want to understand. More than enough has already been written in various posts on this blog, but thus far, you have not taken the needed step.

    Perhaps re-reading my above post 46 and noticing what I mention there about my steps toward changing beliefs regarding the topic of “Jesus is / is not God” as well as what I mention regarding my change of belief regarding the topic at hand here will help you to understand that it is up to you to take the next steps.

  51. on 22 Jan 2013 at 4:59 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    As far as I can determine from your website, your former belief and reading your post here on KR…I am from the same school as you……However I am rooted and grounded in the belief you have abandoned and find it confusing how:

    Galatians 1: (kjv)
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:….

    das kann ich absolut nicht ab=”I absolutely can’t stand that.”

    I am being obedient to this:

    Ephesians 4: (kjv)
    32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  52. on 22 Jan 2013 at 4:59 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    I have read and reread every comment you have made,after researched the topic reading whole books of the bible to make sure I understood the mind of who wrote it so I would not misread the context of the author then testing it against every other occurrence of that topic.
    The only thing I have not done was to ignore enormous portions of the bible, if you could teach me how to do this then we could probably be of the same mind.
    Can you or not point me to a better teacher on this topic.
    Through my reading of this blog you have tried to convert everyone and have been shown many times that there is no scriptual basis for this belief

  53. on 22 Jan 2013 at 5:28 pmJas

    “The only thing I have not done was to ignore enormous portions of the bible, if you could teach me how to do this then we could probably be of the same mind.”

    Wolfgang
    This was very rude of me and was an uncalled response.
    Please forgive me

  54. on 22 Jan 2013 at 5:54 pmTim (aka Antioch)

    Jas,

    I don’t think Wolfgang is alone in his beliefs. If you google ‘preterism’, I think you will find additional information and resources that line up with what he is saying.

    For what its worth, I’m not a preterist but I have yet to revisit that topic in depth and I admit I have shared many of Wolfgang’s thoughts on certain bible passages that do seem to point to Jesus returning ‘soon’. It is just one more topic I have come to discover that the bible is not clear about.

  55. on 22 Jan 2013 at 6:29 pmJas

    Tim
    I do know there are other preterist . I have done intense reseach into it but didnt really come away with an understanding of how one comes to this belief given so many clear passages about the promise to Abraham involving the land shown to him. I understand the near passages in the context of the sign of Jonah which was death and destruction within 40 days but it never came . I would say 40 days qualifies as near but as we read in Jonah God determines the timing and outcome .
    During this whole discussion everytime a literal meaning is provided,by meaning literal I mean the author includes very descriptive physical place and the only defense Wolfgang provides is that it is figurative but Never provides how .
    I have been reading this blog for almost 6 months and on this subject many have provided clearer proofs against but my hope was Wolfgang could provide me with a better understanding of how someone could be led into this belief. I try to understand where all beliefs come from so to test mine to make sure I have not done the same.

  56. on 23 Jan 2013 at 1:33 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    During this whole discussion everytime a literal meaning is provided,by meaning literal I mean the author includes very descriptive physical place and the only defense Wolfgang provides is that it is figurative but Never provides how .

    your above comment indicates a lack of knowledge about the use of literal language and the use of figures of speech.
    I have recently written a rather extensive post about this very idea …
    http://lhim.org/blog/2012/12/17/gods-not-so-secret-agents/#comment-205928
    I did use the example of one of Jesus’ parables where he uses rather descriptive language … but it is part of a figure of speech and is not meant to be understood in its literal sense. I used the example of the often seen picture of lion and lamb next to each other … which is obviously not meant to be understood literally, and yet that is exactly what believers in a future earthly kingdom do …
    You complain

    the only defense Wolfgang provides is that it is figurative but Never provides how

    I would claim that I have certainly attempted to always provide “how and why” I think a passage is a figure of speech and “how and why” a passage is literal.

  57. on 23 Jan 2013 at 3:28 amWolfgang

    Timothy

    you write above

    As far as I can determine from your website, your former belief and reading your post here on KR…I am from the same school as you……However I am rooted and grounded in the belief you have abandoned and find it confusing how:

    Galatians 1: (kjv)
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:….

    I would like to comment on your note: “I am rooted and grounded in the belief you have abandoned …” As far as I am concerned, the doctrine we were taught had its lacks and faults and reflected the teachers’ understanding of the Scriptures and what they had learned over time … what was taught actually changed over the years. It should therefore not be confused as being on equal level as God-inspired teaching of Jesus or what prophets under the inspiration of God wrote in the Scriptures.

    I don’t think the Scriptures, such as the verse you quoted from Galatians, should be applied to situations to which they do not apply …. what is stated there by Paul regarding the Galatians is one thing, but it certainly does NOT apply in the same manner to a 20th century Bible teacher and his audience.

    Or are you of the opinion that what we were taught was without error and thus in all its teaching was “what the Bible says”? Even at KR (living hope church), there have been quite major points where they also “forsook” the doctrines they had learned in the “school” to which you are referring. I would not equate such “forsaking” of doctrines we may have learned somewhere with “being removed … from the gospel” as in Gal 1:6.

    For one, coming to a different understanding was the result of own study and careful consideration of what we had been taught (rather than more or less blindly accepting what was taught as being absolutely true) … it was not because of someone else taught something else and so one follows the wind of that doctrine coming from a different direction.

    If you find a certain point in what you have been taught to be inaccurate, will you correct that point in your belief, or will you — for the sake of “not being removed” and wanting to be faithful to men — continue in what you have recognized to be a false doctrine?

  58. on 23 Jan 2013 at 6:54 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,
    (57)

    “I don’t think the Scriptures, such as the verse you quoted from Galatians, should be applied to situations to which they do not apply …. what is stated there by Paul regarding the Galatians is one thing, but it certainly does NOT apply in the same manner to a 20th century Bible teacher and his audience.”

    My mind is that, now, in the 20 century, I am using it as a figure, just as you imply that Jesus used older scriptures as figures in his day.

    Nothing disrespectful or sarcastic intended to the “Bible teacher or his audience”.

    You have read and heard that many, as do I, cannot figure out how this new belief suddenly came to you. You have given several explanations that I do understand.

    Leaning too far out the window to retreat, with one option: Let go and crash. Just know that all your friends here will help you back to your feet with all
    “fruit of the spirit and agape love of GOD”we can muster.

    Just ask.

    My simple view:

    Jesus final words:

    Acts 1: (kjv)
    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the [uttermost part of the earth]

    Today, I know from studying World History, that at Pentecost(33AD?), very little of the world had been discovered;
    the[uttermost part of the earth]

    Marco Polo and Columbus would eventually discover vast regions, with multi-millions of peoples who had never even heard about Israel, Jesus Christ or the Coming Kingdom of GOD, much less the Roman Empire.

    Today, even the proverb ale man from Borneo has been contacted and there are Christian missionaries living with these primitives, teaching them GODs word.

    According to Jesus’ command to be witnesses, the whole world has now been contacted. This took more than a short or soon time and has been a long time since 70 AD.

    I believe that it will now be even sooner than you believe it was to be at Pentecost, 10 days after Jesus Christ ascended.

    So, I still have Hope: that Jesus still is to return for the first time and for all the Joy we will have on that day in our Resurrection/changed bodies.

    agapao se’ immer

    Timothy

  59. on 23 Jan 2013 at 7:33 amWolfgang

    Timothy,

    you mentioned about your use of scripture verses:

    My mind is that, now, in the 20 century, I am using it as a figure, just as you imply that Jesus used older scriptures as figures in his day.

    what figure of speech is it which you used? also, where did I imply that Jesus used older scripture verses as figures in his day?

    You have read and heard that many, as do I, cannot figure out how this new belief suddenly came to you. You have given several explanations that I do understand.

    well, I am thankful that at least one person did understand something from my various attempts of explaining things …
    A slight correction is needed: This new belief did NOT come to me SUDDENLY! I’ve had questions about certain things of my previous belief re eschatology to which I got no answers for the almost 2 decades I held to such belief …. then I decided to re-evaluate the matter “from scratch” and it took several more years of reading, praying, waiting, pondering, evaluating, until I realized that there were more answers to my questions and more harmony in Scripture altogether than I found previously

    Jesus final words:

    Acts 1: (kjv)
    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the [uttermost part of the earth]

    Today, I know from studying World History, that at Pentecost(33AD?), very little of the world had been discovered;
    the[uttermost part of the earth]

    Marco Polo and Columbus would eventually discover vast regions, with multi-millions of peoples who had never even heard about Israel, Jesus Christ or the Coming Kingdom of GOD, much less the Roman Empire.

    Today, even the proverb ale man from Borneo has been contacted and there are Christian missionaries living with these primitives, teaching them GODs word.

    According to Jesus’ command to be witnesses, the whole world has now been contacted. This took more than a short or soon time and has been a long time since 70 AD.

    Referring you back to one of the principles we learned about how the Scriptures ought to be interpreted …one must understand terms used in light of their historical background and not in light of our modern day understanding.
    Did Jesus mean what you now understand when you describe your understanding of “uttermost part of the earth”? Does “earth [perhaps better translated “land”] even refer to “planet earth / the globe” as we use the term “earth” today and as you indicate in your further words about it? I don’t think so … When Augustus called “for the whole world” to be enrolled … do you mean, he wanted the “borneo man” to register somewhere? Obviously not …. “world” in the historical context referred to the Roman empire. Also, “to whom” was Jesus speaking and giving that charge? To people living 200 or 2000 years afterwards?

  60. on 23 Jan 2013 at 8:53 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    The man from Borneo was a slang that was referring to the last human alive, a cave man living in the jungles of remote Borneo, without any contact to modern man. Also a circus sideshow freak “the wildman from Borneo”. This maybe an american slang only.

    My meaning is “even to the, isolated, ignorant, primative cave man, hiding out in Borneo. Can you get that?

    “uttermost most part of the Earth”=to bear witness to these things in “all parts of the earth”.

    Where were all parts of the Earth in 33AD?

    Where are all parts of the Earth today 2013AD

    I am off to VA doctors.

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  61. on 23 Jan 2013 at 9:09 amJas

    “I did use the example of one of Jesus’ parables where he uses rather descriptive language … but it is part of a figure of speech and is not meant to be understood in its literal sense.”

    Wolfgang
    You used a Parable to show that we could shuck the literal anytime we see fit?

  62. on 23 Jan 2013 at 9:28 amWolfgang

    Jas

    You used a Parable to show that we could shuck the literal anytime we see fit?

    the point was not about “parable” … the point was to show that descriptive language, descriptions with physical details do NOT of necessity mean that the passage is meant to be understood literally.

    As far as descriptive language is concerned, I suggest that it is necessary to understand from the overall scope and from the context whether the passage is meant to be understood literally or meant to be part of a figure of speech.

    Cp. the descriptive language of the lion and the lamb … it is NOT about a future time when lions and lambs will have a drastic change of character, but it involves a figurative use of the terms to show the extend of peace that will be.

  63. on 23 Jan 2013 at 9:47 amtimothy

    Jas,

    Good morning and GOD bless you.

    I am soon away to VA.

    But I wonder about what relationship the lamb and lion had in the Garden Of Eden before the fall.

    I thought there was a change with the animals when Noah turned them loose after the flood.

    Most of the prophesy in old testament is like the Jungles of Vietnam. It has a triple canopy or multiple layer. Some things have come to pass and in the same breath some still are for future fruition.

    Later I want to list my beliefs, which are mostly based on salvation and being like Jesus, was being like GOD.

    Timothy

  64. on 23 Jan 2013 at 10:37 amJas

    Wolfgang
    The fact is you are using a parable as an excuse to pick and choose what is meant literal or figurative .Does the lion and lamb lay down together in a renewed earth? Who knows . Maybe it is a literal example to describe a type of peace but even if it is or isnt the important thing is the type of peace will exist in a renewed earth.
    As to your claim you always provide how and why you refuse the literal meaning for a figurative meaning I have not ever seen anything other than you claiming it figurative because you say it is on the account that you understand the bible better than us.

    Timothy
    Some people require that before the flood the natural balance of the food chain did not exist. All I know is God slaughtered animals to provide a covering for Adam and Eve and Able’s sacrifice was an animal.

  65. on 23 Jan 2013 at 12:05 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    The fact is you are using a parable as an excuse to pick and choose what is meant literal or figurative .

    I am not using a parable as an excuse at all … I was giving you and others an example (not an excuse) that “descriptive language” is NOT the measure for something being meant literally.

    For some reason however, it seems to be impossible for me to help you gain a better understanding of the field of figures of speech and their use in language and in the Scriptures. You should know that determining whether a passage is literal or employing a figure of speech has nothing to do with “pick and choose” … the use of figures of speech follows rules of language and grammar, and is determined by the author/writer … not by the reader.

  66. on 23 Jan 2013 at 12:26 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    From what I have seen here through endless discussions with others here is they dont have the understanding of the field of figures of speech either because they dont just jump up in follow you. From my reading here I believe there are many highly educated people have engaged you in discussions on this topic with you dismissing them as not being capable of truly grasping what they were taught. I think you use your belief as a test of truly understanding whether someone has the capacity to understand the bible.

    Timothy
    One more thing on whether the natural balance existed before the flood is by what basis did Noah distinguish between clean and unclean if it wasnt in reference to eating.

  67. on 23 Jan 2013 at 12:47 pmMike Gantt

    Jas (66),

    One thing that should cause you to give at least a little more regard to Wolfgang’s point than you are is that you can read in the Scriptures of occasion after occasion when people took Jesus to be speaking literally but He was intending to be understood spiritually (or figuratively, if you prefer). For example, see John 2:19-21; Matt 16:11; John 3:4ff. I’m sure you can think of many more.

    It was not just Jesus’ opponents but his very own disciples as well who constantly looked for physical manifestations of Jesus’ teaching when what he was wanting to convey was truth about the spiritual kingdom in which he himself was operating.

    As for those looking for a political or national kingdom of God, I don’t know how they get past the plain speech of John 18:36. Jesus settled the issue when he wouldn’t let his disciples fight physically for him. The warfare in which he wanted them to engage was spiritual (see Eph 6, Rev 1-22, and elsewhere).

  68. on 23 Jan 2013 at 12:53 pmJas

    “As for those looking for a political or national kingdom of God, I don’t know how they get past the plain speech of John 18:36. Jesus settled the issue when he wouldn’t let his disciples fight physically for him. The warfare in which he wanted them to engage was spiritual (see Eph 6, Rev 1-22, and elsewhere).”

    Mike
    The timing of the restoration of Israel is set by the authority of Jesus’ God.
    It is clear it wasnt time for the restoration so your point doesnt apply.

  69. on 23 Jan 2013 at 3:46 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Genesis 2: (kjv)
    18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

    19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

    20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

    quote
    Timothy
    Some people require that before the flood the natural balance of the food chain did not exist. All I know is God slaughtered animals to provide a covering for Adam and Eve and Able’s sacrifice was an animal.
    end quote

    I agree.

    GOD brought the animals to Adam to be named like they were to be pets? In original paradise it is implied that the animals were not fierce.

    GOD made clothing for man from animal skins.(just like in our favorite Beatle Ringo Stars movie, “Caveman”):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRwntLuAN4M

    Genesis 4: (kjv)
    4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:….

    Able offered an offering pleasing to GOD, an animal.

    quote
    Timothy
    One more thing on whether the natural balance existed before the flood is by what basis did Noah distinguish between clean and unclean if it wasn’t in reference to eating.
    end quote

    I agree that the clean were for eating and add even more so for offerings, with sweet aroma, to and for GOD. Perhaps extra animals were brought along for sacrifices.

    Genesis 7: (kjv)
    2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

    3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

    8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

    9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

    14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

    15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

    16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

    Genesis 8: (kjv)
    15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,

    16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

    17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

    20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

    21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

    Isaiah 11: (kjv)
    6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

    7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    Isaiah 65: (kjv)
    25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

    In the Paradise restored, prophesy says the animals will become vegetarians and I am just assuming that they will be as the animals were in original Paradise before the fall. Tame and gentle as pets.

    Timothy

  70. on 23 Jan 2013 at 4:02 pmJas

    Timothy
    We are not given the types of animals that were brought to Adam to name. The Garden was a setapart place with boundaries so even though an animal may have been a meateater outside the garden he would be under the control of God’s will when brought in.
    But I do believe there was no death in the Garden just as there will be none in the renewed earth so if a lion and a lamb is brought forth to the renewed earth than they shall feed together on what God provides

  71. on 23 Jan 2013 at 6:03 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    You wrote:
    “We are not given the types of animals that were brought to Adam to name.”

    It looks like there were three types:

    1) cattle

    2) fowl

    3) beast

    Genesis 2: (kjv)
    20 And Adam gave names to all [cattle], and to the [fowl] of the air, and to every [beast] of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

    There are many things not written. And I think we need to go back and read what is really written. I know that kinder garten Sunday School teachers and books have added much to the folklore.

    Here is something of interest:

    Actually the first command to mankind:

    Genesis 2: (kjv)
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    *****First Command to humankind*****

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    Mankind had dominion over all living things(did he lose it to the devil?)

    ***
    2 Corinthians 4: (kjv)
    4 In whom the [god of this world] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    the devil is the [god of this world] and lost power of the world to the devil at the fall. Jesus Christ has won it back for mankind.

    Luke 4: (kjv)
    6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
    ***

    29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

    All botanical was for food.

    30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

    To animals botanical was for food as well, it does not say that animals or man are to eat flesh for food.

    For mankind to be fruitful and multiply, human sex, male with female, Man and wife, action is required.

    Genesis 38: (kjv)
    7 And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.

    8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

    9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

    10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.

    I do not know what wicked Er did.

    Onan broke the first command by spilling his seed and not carrying out the command to be fruitful and multiply.

    GOD was displeased with Er and Onan and “the idiom of permission, a Hebraism”, aloud the devil to slay the two young men.

    GOD is love and does not kill people.

    Hebrews 2: (kjv)
    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;…..

    Today same sex marriages are not able to be fruitful and multiply and the darling couple will be judged in due time.

    In summary, scripture reveals that animals had a different estate, just as mankind did, in the Garden before messing with the “Tree in the Midst”. God did not say anything about touching the tree, Eve did.

    Timothy

  72. on 23 Jan 2013 at 6:36 pmJas

    Timothy
    I meant all the types ,we are trying to figure out if meateating animals were brought before Adam to name.I personally dont see it because the hebrew only supports cattle and birds living in the field . my guess these were what we come to call domesticated animals.In Gen 1 all of the animals were created before man which my guess these were the wild cattle and other living creators. I see the key phrase in understanding the difference is those in Gen 2 are of the field .

  73. on 23 Jan 2013 at 7:52 pmJas

    Timothy
    We are all going to be judged by our actions but same sex relationships are only against the Words of The Covenants therefore will only effect the reward of the Covenants. There is many things that can effect the reward(1st resurrection) Even those of Judah today who think they are following the Words of The Covenants are lacking the law for righteousness because the sacrifice ,priesthood and temple were done away with and replaced by Jesus’ sacrifice ,Jesus as our High Priest and a temple moved to heaven during this age. Without recognizing this then they can not become blamesless and accounted for righteous without being perfect within the Words of The Covenants . Just being a part of our debt( usary) based monetary system is a sin .

  74. on 23 Jan 2013 at 9:50 pmRay

    There’s so much to hope for in Christ Jesus. The reality of eternal life in heaven is certainly something to hope for as is the resurrection of the dead.

    Psalm 115:17 says that the dead praise not the Lord.

    My 1599 Geneva Bible has a footnote saying that by this, men do not praise God upon the earth anymore after they have died.

    Having departed from us the remaining Church will praise God without their physical presence. Their voice will not be heard anymore in this world.

    It seems to me that there is a part of the soul that dies, while (for the believer), part of it is taken to be with the Lord because of their salvation in him.

  75. on 24 Jan 2013 at 5:30 amWolfgang

    Jas,
    you wrote in an earlier post [52]

    I have read and reread every comment you have made,after researched the topic reading whole books of the bible to make sure I understood the mind of who wrote it so I would not misread the context of the author then testing it against every other occurrence of that topic.

    I have mentioned a few times the overall scope of the Scriptures … and that I find that to be lacking at times in your (and others’) interpretations because you base your interpretations on just context and all the details you read in places.
    For example, in regards the Law and the prophets, we can read all those OT books and consider all the details mentioend in them … but will be off track if we do not consider passages which indicate information of an overall scope for the Law and the prophets. how about what Jesus said regarding this:

    Mt 11:13
    For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John

    Are the Law and the prophets therefore able to still prophesy? Do they prophesy of yet future events?

    Mt 13:17
    For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which ye see, and saw them not; and to hear the things which ye hear, and heard them not.

    Did the disciples see the things which many prophets and righteous men desired to see or did they also not see them?

    Mt 5:17-18
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    So then to the Law and the Prophets still prophesy, that is, is what they taught and prophesied still unfulfilled? Are they still to be fulfilled or have they been accomplished?
    See, debate still rages, because opinions still exist as to whether “heaven and earth” refers to the physical universe or to Old Covenant Israel.

    So, what are the options? IF the heavens and earth still exist, would it not follow that then every jot or tittle of the Law has not passed away and all still needs to be fulfilled? And yet, people claim the Law was fulfilled in Christ’s accomplished work, but contrary to that they still hold to the continued existence of heaven and earth. How does that work?

    Some try and explain that with the death of Jesus, the sacrificial system of the Law was fulfilled and replaced by Jesus as the sacrifice. But how is that possible if not one jot or tittle of the Law could pass away until it was ALL accomplished and heaven and earth pass away? Who are we to sort of piecemeal the accomplishment of the Law? Sure, some parts of the Law were fulfilled at various stages in Christ’s ministry and at the cross, but this statement of Jesus proclaims rather boldly that the full force of the Law remained until it was all accomplished which would not be until heaven and earth have passed.

    So then, has the Law and the prophets not all been accomplished? is every jot and tittle of the Law still in effect? or does heaven and earth not refer to the physical universe in the first place but to the world of Old Convenant Israel … and indeed, the Law and the prophets all have been fulfilled, seeing that “heaven and earth [OC Israel]” did pass away ?

  76. on 24 Jan 2013 at 10:48 amJas

    “Are the Law and the prophets therefore able to still prophesy? Do they prophesy of yet future events?”

    Wolfgang
    Does the context rule out prophecies of future events. This is being spoken to disciples to bring to their attention that John was sent by God to prepare the way for the Messiah to come not to say the law and prophets were nolonger needed.

    “Did the disciples see the things which many prophets and righteous men desired to see or did they also not see them? ”

    I believe that the disciples understood things more clearer than the prophets because the prophets were just delivering a message but do not think the disciples understood more than God who gave the prophets what to speak.But it is very interesting you would use this but then claim the disciples ignorance in Acts 1

    “So then to the Law and the Prophets still prophesy, that is, is what they taught and prophesied still unfulfilled? Are they still to be fulfilled or have they been accomplished? IF the heavens and earth still exist, would it not follow that then every jot or tittle of the Law has not passed away and all still needs to be fulfilled? ”

    Well heaven and earth has not passed away but in Peter it is spoken of. The problem arises when people do not understand the law was added because of of transgressions against the law. What law was added? Paul gives a clue when he says that christ was the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.The sacrificial law was added for a person to be covered of their personal sin which accounted them righteous. What Paul is stating is Jesus fulfilled the law for righteousness therefore replacing it, changing some of the Words of the Covenant which caused it to need to be ratified with blood. The blood of a perfect lamb which Jesus himself offered.
    It is said that people twist Paul writings on the law without doing proper research of to understanding the word used for law meant many things in the 1st century

  77. on 24 Jan 2013 at 5:26 pmSheryl

    I’ve been too busy to engage in this blog like I’d like, but I printed out and read this article and the postings up to a couple days ago..so I’m responding to those who seem to say Jesus’ return and kingdom are spiritual…or already happened…not sure what “preterist” belief is. So when I finished reading I was somewhat confused and questioning and when I grabbed my bible for usual before-bed reading I said a quick prayer for my confusion to be lifted. What I read was intriguing and I’d like to share it here and get some comments:

    2 Peter 3:

    3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.a

    11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.b That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

    14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”

  78. on 24 Jan 2013 at 7:21 pmJas

    Sheryl
    This passage provides a lot of detail on the regeneration cycle by which the new heavens and earth are formed from. This regeneration will also serve as the lake of fire that consumes the ungodly.While this regeneration is taking place the Judgement of the Great White Throne will be taking place in Heaven Above with those not found worthy being thrown back to earth.
    There is no way this has happened

  79. on 24 Jan 2013 at 9:14 pmRay

    I have a note on Matt 11:13 in my 1599 Geneva which says that the scriptures spoke of things pertaining to Christ who was at the time of John, presently seen. (the jist of what the note said)

    I also think of the greatness of the ministry of John the baptist, wishing I could have more of what he said, for as Jesus said, the was the greatest of prophets, and when I think of what Jesus said about how the law and the prophets spoke until John…maybe as far as the gift of prophecy, John manifested it best.

  80. on 24 Jan 2013 at 9:45 pmtimothy

    Wolfgtang,

    With Sherls above post, quoted scripture, I always come to a screeching halt, while trying to reason through you preterest theory.

    And I agree with Jas, “There is no way this has happened”.

    choice #2:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19vApPwWqh8

    choice #1:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Y8Naj3RFk

  81. on 25 Jan 2013 at 3:05 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    The problem arises when people do not understand the law was added because of of transgressions against the law.

    where does such an idea come from?

    What law was added? Paul gives a clue when he says that christ was the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.The sacrificial law was added for a person to be covered of their personal sin which accounted them righteous.

    reading the passages from Gal which speak about the law being added,, there is certainly no implication or idea mentioned by Paul that one law was added to another law …

    Indeed, problems arise when people do not understand such passages as the one in Gal about the law … and that only one law is mentioned there and not two (or even more?)

  82. on 25 Jan 2013 at 3:31 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,
    you mention above passages from 2Pe 3

    3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

    When was the epistle written … recently or in 1st century AD (not to long before Peter’s death in the 60ies AD)?
    To whom was the epistle written, whom does it address — people living at the time of writing or people living hundreds or thousands of years later?
    Peter mentions “in the last days” … of which “last days” (last days of what) is Peter speaking (taking into consideration when and to whom the epistle was written)?

    Also, there were not scoffers and mockers mentioned in the early days after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension and Pentecost, only a few decades after those events do we begin to read what we read here in 2Pe 3 … The scoffers are said to make their mockery about “this coming he promised” … IF Jesus’ promise of his coming did not involve any time frame, then such mockery would be ineffective and nothing but hot air and no danger to any believers’ belief or hope … they could easily dismiss such.

    However, Jesus promised that the coming of the Son of man was to be “soon” and during the timeframe of “THIS generation”m, even while some of those who heard him teach were still alive. Now, by the time of writing of 2Pe “this generation” was already in the process of passing away, and understanding what is written with this background, we can understand why such scoffers might have some impact on the faithfulness and steadfastness of the believers! The scoffers were obviously making a point of the fact that the timeframe Jesus had indicated in the promise of his coming was drawing near to its end … and the closer to the end the more effective might be those who doubt the fulfillment of a promise. There was no point in such scoffing questioning his coming while all or most of that generation were still alive … everybody knew that the time obviously was not yet! But as years went by and more and more of this generation passed, the scoffers (in particular those from among the apostate Jews) began showing up on the scene trying to shake believers’ faith … also perhaps in their false hopes that the prophesied judgment on them which was to happen with the coming of the Son of man would not happen …

  83. on 25 Jan 2013 at 9:52 amJas

    Wolfgang
    What transgressions was the law added for then?
    You do understand what the word transgression means in and outside of the bible?
    Maybe this will help.
    Rom. 4:15: “Because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

    ” The scoffers are said to make their mockery about “this coming he promised” … IF Jesus’ promise of his coming did not involve any time frame, then such mockery would be ineffective and nothing but hot air and no danger to any believers’ belief or hope … they could easily dismiss such.”

    Really!!
    You claim the Apostles were ignorant after being personally Taught, but accept the scoffers as having the correct understanding.

  84. on 25 Jan 2013 at 12:45 pmJas

    My thoughts on 2 Peter 3
    The author is calling to mind the prophecies of the prophets of old and the commands of Jesus. He then goes on to say that in the last days,plural meaning a period of time such as ages.Later on in this passage it is reveal that a thousand years is as a day to God so days mean atleast 2 days so lets not limit it to days as we live in.
    He goes on to say that those days that scoffers would arise claiming things pertaining to Jesus’ return. My guess these scoffers will be claiming that since Jesus didnt return that makes it a false belief or some claiming it has come which the rest of the passage is about. He goes on to say they deliberately supress the fact that God already once Generated the land and the sky from a water covered planet and this form perished to give way to the form we have now. The only reason I see for this is to show what God was going to do at the end was actually done once and by the same way the land was formed out of the water the regeneration would come the same way . This is brought to mind to show that if Jesus had already returned to gathers those he purchased then why hasnt the land and the sky be reformed by fire. To me this puts the return of Jesus at the end of the millennium which matches my belief that Jesus rules the millennium from God’s throne in heaven while God rest his Sabbath again while those of restored Israel reign with Jesus from earth. One other thought on this generation not passing before all things being fulfilled is many that heard it will be living at the end because of the first resurrection and many that were spoken this that see Jesus coming are those of the first resurrection including Paul whose vision it was by.
    Was it wrong to say it was near when since we can not do anything while we sleep and death could come to anyone in the next minute .

  85. on 25 Jan 2013 at 2:51 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    What transgressions was the law added for then?
    You do understand what the word transgression means in and outside of the bible?
    Maybe this will help.
    Rom. 4:15: “Because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Which “law” are you talking about above (in your “… was the law added for then”) … since you seem to have 2 different laws in view? Also, to which law are you referring as the law which was transgressed and to which another law was added?
    Then you quote Rom 4:15 … to which law does that verse refer?

  86. on 25 Jan 2013 at 2:55 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    To me this puts the return of Jesus at the end of the millennium which matches my belief that Jesus rules the millennium from God’s throne in heaven while God rest his Sabbath again while those of restored Israel reign with Jesus from earth.

    I wonder what other folks teaching about Jesus reigning on earth from Jerusalem during the millennium have to say about the above …
    Where do we read about God resting “his Sabbath again” during the millennium?
    Also, first you claimed Jesus was reigning from God’s throne in heaven during the millennium, then you change to Jesus reigning with those of restored Israel on earth during that time … ?? a bit confusing … to say the least

  87. on 25 Jan 2013 at 3:17 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    The question is what law was added because of trangressions if there is no transgression where there is no law.

    Iam sure that most people here and others can make their own mind up on what they believe. They can also state why THEY believe what they do just as I have.

  88. on 25 Jan 2013 at 3:22 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Those living can reign with Jesus with Jesus being in Heaven and they being on earth. The context of where Jesus reigns from was already set.,so if you are a master of context why cant you understand that?

  89. on 25 Jan 2013 at 3:41 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    The question is what law was added because of trangressions if there is no transgression where there is no law.

    ?? what’s this circular talk about?

    So you think that in order for there to have a transgression there must first be a law? Thus, before the OT Law (also called at times “Mosaic Law”), the Torah, was given, there was no transgression … and when the OT Law was given, since people transgressed that law, another law was given by Jesus to do away with certain parts of the OT Law which people were transgressing … is this what you are saying?

  90. on 25 Jan 2013 at 3:56 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    You can claim it is circular if you want.

    No it is what Paul thought and taught.

    Again no I believe the Law for Righteousness was added because of transgressions of all commandments so a person could be accounted righteous by the sacrifice by faith in the Law for Righteousness . I also believe Jesus became the Law for Righteousness for us by being perfect in all the Commandments and if we use his sacrifice by faith than we can be accounted righteous if our attempt to follow the Words of The Covenants fall short which is most likely .

    As for where it states that God will rest his Sabbath please read very very carefully .
    Hebrews
    4:1 Therefore we must be wary 1 that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it. 4:2 For we had good news proclaimed to us just as they did. But the message they heard did them no good, since they did not join in 2 with those who heard it in faith. 3 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter my rest!’” 4 And yet God’s works 5 were accomplished from the foundation of the world. 4:4 For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,” 6 4:5 but to repeat the text cited earlier: 7 “They will never enter my rest!” 4:6 Therefore it remains for some to enter it, yet those to whom it was previously proclaimed did not enter because of disobedience.

  91. on 25 Jan 2013 at 4:00 pmMike Gantt

    Sheryl (77),

    In response to your request for comments on 2 Pet 3, I will add to what Wolfgang said, and in support of what he said, that I think it’s fundamentally important to take note of the people to whom the passage was addressed. That is, it was addressed to people who would be living in the last days – the recipients of the letter. The promises were not made to “your descendants after you” or “the generations to come” – language the Bible certainly knows how to use when it wants to. Rather, all the words were directed to the recipients of the letter – contemporaries of Peter. They were the ones who were to “look for and hasten the coming of the day of God.” If the Lord made such a promise to them, we can be sure that He kept it to them.

  92. on 25 Jan 2013 at 4:16 pmJas

    Mike
    I see this letter addressing a misunderstanding similar to yours and Wolfgangs belief

  93. on 25 Jan 2013 at 5:08 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    Again no I believe the Law for Righteousness was added because of transgressions of all commandments so a person could be accounted righteous by the sacrifice by faith in the Law for Righteousness .

    what is “the Law for Righteousness”? Where is this “Law for Righteousness” spoken of in Scripture? is it called “the Law for righteousness”? When was it given by whom and to whom? or are you calling some Law by that term while the Scriptures call it something else?

  94. on 25 Jan 2013 at 5:11 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    No it is what Paul thought and taught.

    well Paul certainly knew of the existence of transgression long before the Law was ever given …

  95. on 25 Jan 2013 at 5:20 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    you mentioned in your explanation of 2Pe 3

    He then goes on to say that in the last days,plural meaning a period of time such as ages.Later on in this passage it is reveal that a thousand years is as a day to God so days mean atleast 2 days so lets not limit it to days as we live in.

    so you interpret “days” to mean or equate to ” millenniums” ? In “these last days” (plural days) actually means — according to you — “in these last millenniums”?

    There is ample evidence that the expression “a day is AS a thousand years” and “a thousands years AS a day” cannot be used as sort of a mathematical formula to calculate time between what those folks who do so use it call” man’s time” and “God’s time”.

    For one, which of the equations should be used “one (human time) day = 1000 (God time) years”, or should it be “one (God time) day = 1000 (human time) years” ???
    Furthermore, the statement does not even say that 1 day IS a thousand years, etc … The expression is a figure of speech by which God’s patience is emphasized, it has nothing to do with a literal day or days nor literal one thousand years or many millenniums

  96. on 25 Jan 2013 at 6:03 pmJas

    “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes” Rom. 10:4
    Romans
    9:30 What shall we say then? – that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness obtained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith, 9:31 but Israel even though pursuing 55 a law of righteousness 56 did not attain it. 57 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued 58 it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. 59 They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 60 9:33 just as it is written,

    “Look, I am laying in Zion a stone that will cause people to stumble

    and a rock that will make them fall, 61

    yet the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 62

    Wolfgang
    Faith is required to accept a sacrifice can account you righteous, some thought it was by the own act by offering it made them righteous .After Jesus fulfilled the Law for Righteousness people still literally offered an animal sacrifice to be accounted but Jesus’ own sacrifice done away with the old way for righteousness but even the new way for righteousness requires faith in Jesus

  97. on 25 Jan 2013 at 6:10 pmJas

    “well Paul certainly knew of the existence of transgression long before the Law was ever given …”

    Wolfgang
    God spoke the first commandment to Adam, and Able was the first written about using the Law for Righteousness

    “There is ample evidence that the expression “a day is AS a thousand years” and “a thousands years AS a day” cannot be used as sort of a mathematical formula to calculate time between what those folks who do so use it call” man’s time” and “God’s time”. ”

    You can read it anyway you want,Your belief is not dependent upon me accepting it.

  98. on 25 Jan 2013 at 6:12 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes” Rom. 10:4

    but where does this verse speak of “the law for righteousness” ?? It doesn’t!

    The verse teaches
    “FOR CHRIST IS THE END of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS”

    It does not teach
    “For Christ is the end of THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS”

    There is not “Law for righteousness” …. but Christ is the end of the Law (the Old Covenant Law” for the purpose of bringing righteousness. A Law does not bring righteousness … FAITH in Christ brings righteousness.

  99. on 25 Jan 2013 at 6:33 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    You and anyone who has a need to claim the Governance and the Commandments ended with Jesus have the right to. Peter even speaks of it.
    The Commandments never could make a person righteous , but they could lead you to the prescription( Law for Righteousness ) given when the Commandments convicted us

  100. on 25 Jan 2013 at 9:19 pmRay

    Jesus is the perfect law of liberty. The Lord knows how to direct us, whether by his Spirit, or to the things of the law by the same spirit.
    He knows when, where, how and why.

  101. on 26 Jan 2013 at 5:15 amMike Gantt

    Further to the 2 Pet 3 discussion, and specifically the scoffers referenced in it, consider what Habakkuk (Hab 1:5) said about scoffers and how Paul warned his hearers (Acts 13:40-41) not to be like them:

    “BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL AND PERISH; FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS, A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.”

    You, too, should be careful that it does not apply to you, for Wolfgang is describing it to you but some of you are not believing it.

  102. on 26 Jan 2013 at 8:44 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    you still did not clarify what you mean with the different “laws” to which you refer, specifically there was (a) “the Law” which was transgressed, and (b) the Law for righteousness” which was added to that first Law

    Could you please clarify how understand these laws? When were they given? what did they entail? where in Scripture do we read about them being given?

    I understand that “the Law” (to which Paul and others refer as “the Law” was given at Sinai … we can read the many details which it entailed for example in Exo and Lev.
    However, where could we read of the other (the “law for righteousness”) as being given and added to that first law?

  103. on 26 Jan 2013 at 11:06 amJas

    Wolfgang
    You do understand that the first covenant with man was with Adam .Very few laws were included in this covenant.Adam broke the Most important of them.There was no sacrificial law at that time so God performed the very first sacrifice to cover Adam. Somewhere after this God commanded a sacrifice which Able performed and Cain chose his own way. The one Able performed was Law because God commanded to Adam to perform. This law account Able righteous.
    Why do you think Able was sacrificing an animal?
    Why do you think Noah and Abraham did?
    Do you think the commandments and the purpose of the sacrifice started with Moses?
    Did God Adam a command to sacrifice before he transgressed or was it Added because of it?
    Was the sacrificial system added to the Commandment delivered to Moses or were they included because they preexisted all covenants except Adams?

  104. on 26 Jan 2013 at 11:23 amWolfgang

    Mike (91)

    Rather, all the words were directed to the recipients of the letter – contemporaries of Peter. They were the ones who were to “look for and hasten the coming of the day of God.” If the Lord made such a promise to them, we can be sure that He kept it to them.

    those holding to a futurist theology (that is, teaching and believing that the prophesied and promised coming of the Lord is still in the future … even after almost 2 millenniums have passed) read the NT scriptures mostly as if they were written and addressed directly to them and if they had been written “just yesterday”. This, in my estimation, is a major error, causing them to put things in the present just because they were written in the present tense at the time of writing and things into the yet future, just because they were future at the time of writing. The truth that the NT writings were NOT written and addressed to audiences living centuries or millenniums later is not taken into proper consideration.

    By the way, almost all believers in a yet future coming of the Lord whom I have encountered do teach that the early church was taught that the coming of the Lord would be “soon”, even in their lifetime, and they also teach that the early believers were correctly taught by Jesus and the apostles and also correctly understood what they had been taught and thus rightly expected the Lord’s coming/return in their imminent future and while some of them would still be alive. But then, these teachers have no problem to “change their tune” (usually they don’t notice that they are actually doing so) and declare that it just did not come to pass but that now we, living obviously already 2000 years or so closer to the return of Christ than they early church, can and should just as much believe that Christ’s coming/return is imminent and could happen any day “soon” ….

    I finally realized after almost 2 decades of teaching in such manner about the return of the Lord that I was actually contradicting myself and had no business teaching what I was teaching because thereby I was in effect either making Jesus and the apostles liars and false prophets (saying that they had correctly taught a soon return which then did not happen ) or else was claiming that their teaching was correct when in reality it had been false, etc …

    After giving these things some thought, I admitted that obviously I had been wrong with my “yet future fulfillment teaching” and that Jesus and the apostles were correct in their teaching and that obviously therefore what they prophesied and taught must have come to pass as prophesied ! From admitting that the fault was in my understanding it was still quite a ways to then sort out my understanding of those Scripture passages which I had interpreted a certain way to come up with the “yet future” views and to see if indeed my interpretations had been the only possible one or if there was in fact a different understanding possible which was in harmony with an “imminent return” understanding ….

    Now, I don’t have all answers to all questions regarding certain scripture passages … but I certainly have now more answers and less questions (and especially less assuming and conjecture about the future) than I did before.

  105. on 26 Jan 2013 at 12:14 pmMike Gantt

    Wolfgang (104),

    Well said.

    Also, I would like to reinforce something specific you said:

    “[T]hose holding to a futurist theology (that is, teaching and believing that the prophesied and promised coming of the Lord is still in the future … even after almost 2 millenniums have passed) read the NT scriptures mostly as if they were written and addressed directly to them and if they had been written ‘just yesterday’.”

    This is true – and quite remarkable – given how many differences there are between church today and church in New Testament times. Just begin to count them:

    1. There are no genuine apostles today (that is, eyewitnesses of the resurrected Lord who are commissioned by Him to spread His message).

    2. There is no unity in the church today (tens of thousands of denominations). The apostles kept exhorting the church in their time to stay unified.

    3. There is no doctrinal purity in today’s churches. In NT times, the apostles were always working hard to keep the doctrine pure (1 Cor 15; 2 Cor 11:3-4.)

    4. There is no moral purity in churches today. When there was impurity in NT churches, the apostles sought to remove it (e.g. 1 Cor 5). Today there is child molestation in churches, adulteries by pastors, and divorce in the pew. When the last time you saw a church expel a member according Matt 18?

    5. There are no church services today that match the description we have of a NT church experience (1 Cor 12-14). Some try, but none match.

    6. Every church today has a human organizational head (whether it be a pope, pastor, group of elders, or whatever). NT churches had no individual human head until the days of apostasy at the end (at which time the practice was, of course, immediately condemned: 3 John 1:9)

    And, as you know, even more could be said about the differences between today’s churches and the one we read about in the New Testament. Thus it is all the more amazing that people today act like the NT epistles were written to them. And then for them to say: “We accept the doctrine of Jesus and the apostles, except as in regard to Jesus and the timing of His coming kingdom.” These are highly selective choices people are making about what to believe.

    Alas, most people are not making these choices. Rather, they are simply continuing in whatever doctrine they’ve been taught. They have no ill will against the Lord. They just need to be told the truth. Of course, when that happens there will be a polarization among those who hear. Some will believe, and others will harden their hearts and mock.

    What matters is serving the Lord Jesus Christ with a whole heart. That is the kingdom of God and that is what Jesus and His apostles and the NT church worked so hard to proclaim. The least we can do is believe them that it came.

  106. on 26 Jan 2013 at 12:22 pmJas

    Mike
    2Peter 3 states
    3:8 Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, 22 that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, 23 as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish 24 for any 25 to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    This passage is emphasizing that we should not set the timing of the last days by terms like days because a single day could be a thousand years because a thousand years are a single day to God.
    It also deals with people who claim God a liar because thing didnt come in our timing and gives a reason why God only knows the timing and what reason for setting it and outcome God would like to happen. While this whole chapter is dealing with the last days right before the Judgment it also applies to the timing of the restoration of Israel because that timing is also set by HIS on authority. Jesus was given words to preach and prophesies just as Jonah was and as we see in Jonah the outcome was up to God not Jonah,
    This verse allows for Jesus saying tomorrow the Kingdom will come and a thousands years later it coming with out making God or Jesus a liar.

  107. on 26 Jan 2013 at 12:33 pmSheryl

    I find it almost impossible to believe that Jesus or the kingdom of God have already made their appearance. The Kingdom is within our midst, if the spirit of Jesus is in us then so is the spiritual kingdom. But the “second coming” is still in the future even though the disciples/apostles and even Jesus himself (who admitted not knowing when he would make his second earthly appearance) assumed it was going to be in their day. Otherwise how do you interpret:

    “First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

    If a thousand years is like a day, then only 2 days have passed (still “soon”) and God wants to give us as much time as possible so that more people can come to a knowledge of his salvation. So I have no problem with continued patience, waiting on Jesus’ return. If the kingdom was here in the way the bible describes I think we wouldn’t be having this conversation because it should be obvious. Do you think it’s figurative that Jesus will set his foot on Mt Zion? That he will appear in the flesh to defeat the enemies? I always took that as literal…he will come again just as he left the disciples…or else the angels were lying.

  108. on 26 Jan 2013 at 1:02 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,
    (104)

    “those holding to a futurist theology (that is, teaching and believing that the prophesied and promised coming of the Lord is still in the future …

    even after almost 2 millenniums have passed) read the NT scriptures mostly as if they were written and addressed directly to them and if they had been written “just yesterday”.

    This, in my estimation, is a major error, causing them to put things in the present just because they were written in the present tense at the time of writing and things into the yet future, just because they were future at the time of writing.

    The truth that the NT writings were NOT written and addressed to audiences living centuries or millenniums later is not taken into proper consideration.”

    What do you suggest?

    Have you stopped running for the *prize*?

    Are you now beating the air?

    Do you *hope* for anything?

    What about your *ministry of reconciliation* GOD committed to you?

    Have you already receive your rewards:

    1 Corinthians 9:25=”Crown incorruptible”

    1 Thessalonians 2:19=”Crown of rejoicing”

    2 Timothy 4:8=”Crown of Righteousness”

    James 1:12=”Crown of life”

    1 Peter 5:4=”Crown of glory

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  109. on 26 Jan 2013 at 1:27 pmMike Gantt

    Jas (106),

    To adopt your interpretation of that passage would make every other New Testament passage on this subject of no effect. Just to take a few, consider the words of the Lord Himself in Matt 10:23; 16:28; and 24:34. If He didn’t want His disciples to think it would be within their generation, why did He lead them to expect it within their generation?

    We would not have a sense of timing about the Lord’s coming unless He and His apostles had given one to us. The New Testament is virtually pulsating with the expectation of His coming, and it reaches a fever pitch by the book of Revelation, which states twice in the first chapter and five times in the last that it was about to happen.

    A father once promised his little girl that he would buy her an ice cone before the sun went down. The two of them were strolling through the fair all day long. Every time she asked, he promised that he would indeed buy her an ice cone before the sun went down. Well, the sun went down but she got no ice cream cone. When she asked him about his promise, he said, “My daughter, I didn’t say ‘which day’ the sun would go down – therefore, you have to be expectant every day for that ice cream cone.” This is the kind of father you are making God out to be.

  110. on 26 Jan 2013 at 1:38 pmMike Gantt

    Sheryl (107),

    God is not a liar. I’m glad that’s a point on which all of us can apparently agree.

    Now, if someone wanted to prove that the second coming was a literal (i.e. physical) coming of the Lord, then the two best passages they could put forward would be 2 Pet 3 and Acts 1 (which you have done). The problem is that, as physical scenarios, these two scenes are incompatible. That is, they contradict each other; they cannot both be true. No one is going to be able to physically see Jesus descending in a physical body onto Mount Zion if the entire earth and everything on it is being engulfed by physical flames.

    For this reason the dispensationalists try to break up the coming of the Lord into various different events: to preserve the idea that they could be physical. However, it is much simpler – and much more faithful to the biblical texts – to recognize that Jesus and His apostles were trying to prepare the believers for something spiritual. Did Jesus not say that He came so we could worship God, not in a physical temple from time to time, but in spirit and in truth at all times?

  111. on 26 Jan 2013 at 1:40 pmJas

    Mike
    You misunderstandind exist in the Fact you do not understand some of those this is spoken to will receive a prolonged life by the First Resurrection . Paul’s statement on Jesus coming included himself as being alive at that time which is only possible if some of his generation received a prolonged life after they slept.

  112. on 26 Jan 2013 at 2:37 pmSheryl

    Isn’t “generation” this “age”? IE: this present evil age? Would it make sense that Jesus will return during this “generation” then?

    If Jesus made his second coming, how come we don’t know about it? If we are in the kingdom right now, where is the peace and joy God promised? Seems to me things are getting worse and worse. What about resurrection…where are the people rising from their graves to meet him in the air…or is that figurative?

    I get the sense that Jesus and his disciples thought everything was going to happen right then…like I said, even Jesus didn’t know when he would descend back to earth as he ascended. Perhaps God left that misunderstanding in the bible to remind us that Jesus could come at any time and to always be on guard and not ashamed to see him return.

    I don’t understand how 2 Peter and Acts 1 contradict each other; I think they support each other if my understanding of scripture is correct. Do you have a couple of absolute convincing verses that prove Jesus has already come as he promised, and the kingdom is right here right now? I’m not meaning to be provoking, I’m sincerely curious. We are all here in a mindset of learning and teaching.

  113. on 26 Jan 2013 at 2:37 pmWolfgang

    Mike (106)

    I appreciate that someone else is pointing out the type of problems which arise with people believing in a yet future coming of the Lord and yet also teach that we could/should expect “even today” …. your example of the Father promising his girl something and then not keeping his promise (that is, being a liar!) is indeed illustrating very well what type of Father the futurist doctrine makes God out to be …

  114. on 26 Jan 2013 at 2:44 pmWolfgang

    Mike (107)

    Now, if someone wanted to prove that the second coming was a literal (i.e. physical) coming of the Lord, then the two best passages they could put forward would be 2 Pet 3 and Acts 1 (which you have done). The problem is that, as physical scenarios, these two scenes are incompatible. That is, they contradict each other; they cannot both be true.

    exactly … and there are more problems with the ideas of the coming of the Lord being a physical / visible with the eyes event. I suppose these dilemmas are the cause for futurist theologians having developed various kinds of “millennial” doctrines … such as “pre-tribulation”,”mid-tribulation”, “post-tribulation” comings of the Lord, etc … all are attempts to solve the dilemmas, yet none will and can solve the root problem.

    Also, the interpretation of 2P 3 as being about a physical destruction of planet earth by fire is contradictory to various scriptures which speak about planet earth and it remaining forever … as well as God’s promise at the time of Noah that He will NOT (!) again destroy the earth as He had just done …

  115. on 26 Jan 2013 at 2:56 pmJas

    Also, the interpretation of 2P 3 as being about a physical destruction of planet earth by fire is contradictory to various scriptures which speak about planet earth and it remaining forever … as well as God’s promise at the time of Noah that He will NOT (!) again destroy the earth as He had just done …

    Wolfgang
    Who is claiming the earth will not remain forever?Peter claims it will be refined by fire much like Gold is refined from ore.
    In what was does what Peter describe equate to God destroying the ungodly by flood?

  116. on 26 Jan 2013 at 3:04 pmMike Gantt

    Sheryl (112),

    Here is a book-length biblical case for believing the Second Coming occurred when Jesus and His apostles said it would:

    http://wp.me/PNthc-q3

    Even though the book is not a long one (just under 30,000 words), here is a one-page summary for those who would like a preliminary overview first:

    http://wp.me/pKqSA-u

  117. on 26 Jan 2013 at 5:30 pmJas

    Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God and since Matthew 26:64
    Jesus said to him, ” It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
    Doesthat mean Jesus came at the time of Stephen.
    Or does most of the “Coming” relate to Jesus coming into power in the clouds of Heaven.
    Actually Jesus NEVER states when his return would be but does states things that must happen before. Peter also doesnt say when but does state things that will come directly after. Paul states that he would be alive at Jesus’ return by the word of the Lord
    Mike,Wolfgang
    You should quit ignoring and claiming things that could not of happened because a few verses which you do not understand.

  118. on 26 Jan 2013 at 6:22 pmMike Gantt

    Jas (117),

    “Actually Jesus NEVER states when his return would be…”

    “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.” Matt 10:23

    “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” Matt 16:28

    “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” Matt 24:34

  119. on 26 Jan 2013 at 6:39 pmJas

    Mike
    Again I EMPHASIZE TO WHAT DO HE COME INTO!
    Was not Jesus coming into the authority given him his Kingdom.
    None of these are proofs just because you misunderstand them

    Matthew 26:64
    Jesus said to him, ” It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Can Jesus be sitting at right hand of God and be coming in the clouds or is the coming receiving power in the clouds of Heaven.

    “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.” Matt 10:23

    I believe this happened at his ascension .

  120. on 26 Jan 2013 at 8:24 pmMike Gantt

    Jas (119),

    Jesus went to the right hand of God at His ascension (Acts 1). His “coming on the clouds” was His coming in judgment (i.e., the coming of which he spoke in Matt 10:23; 16:28; and 24:34).

  121. on 26 Jan 2013 at 8:35 pmJas

    Mike
    No Mike you are reading that in into these verses because you can not rightly divide these prophesies especially 24:34

  122. on 26 Jan 2013 at 9:57 pmJas

    Matt 24:3 As 7 he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things 8 happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

    Mike
    You can start rightly dividing by rightly dividing this verse into 2 questions.
    In the first question they were just told not one stone would not be left upon another. Jesus then goes on to described when these things will happen by given them signs all the way to verse 26. Then he warns them that some will say he has come but do not believe them. Then describes his coming and puts it in the prophesy of Ezekiel 39 :4,17 Then he describes what happens after that where he comes to gather his elect(those living in the millennium kingdom.) We also know that he will gather the dead before those living.

  123. on 27 Jan 2013 at 4:13 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    No Mike you are reading that in into these verses because you can not rightly divide these prophesies especially 24:34

    Mike can’t … BUT you can?

    I’d say that Mike is a lot closer to rightly dividing these verses than you are … reason being, that his dividing is simple and in harmony with the overall scope of the many NT scriptures relating to the return/”second coming” of the Lord.

    Have you read the documents to which Mike referred Shirley in post 116? I found his summary as well as the more detailed booklet very informative and straight forward so anyone reading and giving some thought to what they are reading can rather easily understand the matter … whereas all the futurist teaching I have ever heard (and done myself) is in reality complicate and confusing the matter.

  124. on 27 Jan 2013 at 4:20 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    how would you answer the following simple questions that will shed some light on the topic of the second coming/return of the Lord ?

    (1) did the believers in the NT times early church believe in and hope for an imminent return/coming of the Lord (even in their lifetime)?

    (2) was their believing and hope based on what they had been taught by Jesus and his apostles?

    (3) were Jesus and his apostles correct in what they taught?

    (4) were the believers correct in what they understood and believed and hoped?

    (5) did what Jesus and his apostles prophesied and taught come to pass as understood and believed by the believers?

    (6) did what the believers believed and hoped come to pass or did it not come to pass ?

  125. on 27 Jan 2013 at 10:46 amJas

    (1) did the believers in the NT times early church believe in and hope for an imminent return/coming of the Lord (even in their lifetime)?

    Absolutey Did the Ninivites believe and hope for a stay of execution ?

    (2) was their believing and hope based on what they had been taught by Jesus and his apostles?

    Absolutely

    (3) were Jesus and his apostles correct in what they taught?

    Absolutely

    (4) were the believers correct in what they understood and believed and hoped?

    Absolutely

    (5) did what Jesus and his apostles prophesied and taught come to pass as understood and believed by the believers?

    Absolutely

    (6) did what the believers believed and hoped come to pass or did it not come to pass ?

    No unless they wanted the secondary outcome of destruction of the sign of Jonah. They would have preferred that God accept that the people had repented and had the kingdom restored instead

  126. on 27 Jan 2013 at 1:33 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    so then it follows that since (1) Jesus and his apostles taught correctly an imminent return/coming of the Lord – even within the lifetime of their generation – and (2) the believers believed and hoped correctly for the return of the Lord within the lifetime of some of them, that (3) the coming of the Lord together with all the events linked to it (resurrection of the dead, end of the age, destruction of Jerusalem and temple, etc.) indeed happened then.

    I’ve been saying this all along …

  127. on 27 Jan 2013 at 1:59 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Do you have a comprehensive difficulty.
    I made it clear that they did believe a return was possible in their lifetime and made it clear their HOPE was that this was the outcome.
    There is no such thing as hoping correctly without accepting an alternate outcome.
    Actually only the destruction and exile of those in Jerusalem came.Nowhere does anyone of that time report that Jesus returned or any report of a mass resurrection .
    The truth is you have no idea what you are saying and claiming and how unscriptual it is.
    I understand how Mike might says Jesus was God so he knew the timing but the fact is he didnt which makes both beliefs false.

  128. on 27 Jan 2013 at 2:25 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    GOD bless you today.

    I have waited for a comment from Wolfgang about these questions from my # 108 post.

    I am in concert with your believing that there is still more coming when Jesus Christ returns and Christians will be resurrected. You do believe.

    If Jesus has already returned, then what about these following, for Wolfgangs believing it is now past. I do believe that none of the rewards will be received until after the Resurrection at Jesus’ return.

    # 108
    Have you stopped running for the *prize*?

    Are you now beating the air?

    Do you *hope* for anything?

    What about your *ministry of reconciliation* GOD committed to you?

    Have you already receive your rewards:

    1 Corinthians 9:25=”Crown incorruptible”

    1 Thessalonians 2:19=”Crown of rejoicing”

    2 Timothy 4:8=”Crown of Righteousness”

    James 1:12=”Crown of life”

    1 Peter 5:4=”Crown of glory

    Thanks for all your post.

    Timothy

  129. on 27 Jan 2013 at 2:29 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    could it be that YOU have the comprehension problem? In particular because you base your ideas on wrong premises … such as this one:

    There is no such thing as hoping correctly without accepting an alternate outcome.

    I suppose the father in Mike’s illustration was the “good guy” because he had an alternate outcome in mind from what he initially had promised to his girl …

    Have fun promoting such a hope as “will buy you ice cream before sunset” … but sneaking out if keeping your promise by keeping “the day of the sunset” as “a lousy excuse” for not keeping the promise

  130. on 27 Jan 2013 at 2:53 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Are you really willing to compare the Most High withe the father in that story??

    Timothy
    May God bless all
    Wolfgangs never answers hard questions so I would not hold my breath .
    There is still much for me to completely understand so even though I may come across as arrogant sometimes in my beliefs I do not believe I have an advantage or belief I am worthy of more Grace.
    If I was to die today then wake sometime in the future to someone welcoming me to the first resurrection I would be amazed and surprised but my hope is just that but if Grace is all I hope that my loving all mankind will be enough to receive eternal life

  131. on 27 Jan 2013 at 4:13 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    Are you really willing to compare the Most High withe the father in that story??

    I am not doing so … YOU are the one whose ideas make the Most High look like the father in that story (as Mike already pointed out)

  132. on 27 Jan 2013 at 4:29 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    When the little girl asked for an ice cream cone did the father reply that the only sign whether or not she would was the sign of Jonah.Then the little girl would by reading Jonah would have understood that it was dependent of her faith and obedience therefore she would have not asked constantly but would have had faith that it was in her fathers authority to decide when or if she could have a ice cream cone.
    so Mike purposely left details out.

  133. on 27 Jan 2013 at 4:30 pmWolfgang

    Timothy,

    If Jesus has already returned, then what about these following, for Wolfgangs believing it is now past. I do believe that none of the rewards will be received until after the Resurrection at Jesus’ return.

    The rewards did become available with the coming of the Lord and the resurrection … with the coming of the Lord, those who lived at the time and those who live after that time receive receive reward when they are changed in a twinkling of an eye at the time they “take their past breath” / at the end of their earthly life)

    # 108
    Have you stopped running for the *prize*?

    No … why would you get such an impression?

    Are you now beating the air?

    No … although sometimes I might be seeing that I am not perfect in my walk

    Do you *hope* for anything?

    Yes … the same hope I read being proclaimed in the Scriptures … which is life eternal in the presence of God.

    What about your *ministry of reconciliation* GOD committed to you?

    I endeavor to carry out what God has committed to me in regards to living and sharing the good news of the gospel

    Have you already receive your rewards:

    No … I trust I will receive it when I am changed at the end of my earthly life.

    1 Corinthians 9:25=”Crown incorruptible”
    1 Thessalonians 2:19=”Crown of rejoicing”
    2 Timothy 4:8=”Crown of Righteousness”
    James 1:12=”Crown of life”
    1 Peter 5:4=”Crown of glory

    In addition to my above answer, I would like to point out that one should take a careful look and evaluate if this “ministry of reconciliation” as well as all those “crowns” are even available to any and all believers / followers of Christ …
    I have found quite a number of claims made (in our both common theological background) about things pertaining to all believers, were in truth not applicable to all but only to certain believers at the time (cp. my other comment about folks reading the scriptures today as if they had been written “just yesterday” and were “addressed to us today”)

  134. on 27 Jan 2013 at 5:00 pmtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    Thanks for sharing a more complete picture of what you now believe.

    Agapao se’

    Timothy

  135. on 28 Jan 2013 at 12:32 amRay

    Incorruptable joy and rejoicing, the glory of God, righteousness, and life everlasting is our hope, the worthwhile reward for our troubles in this world because of Christ Jesus. Those who have suffered with him will have reward with him. There’s a regal quality to those rewards because Jesus is the King.

  136. on 28 Jan 2013 at 2:49 amSheryl

    Hi Guys,

    I’m still confused about those of you who think Jesus has already made his 2nd appearance. I think it was said here that Jesus’ coming in the clouds is maybe the figurative coming in “clouds of glory” to be in our midst then and now? When do you think we are resurrected, and where will we spend our life in the age to come? I can find nothing to agree with you on when I can’t understand how you deal with the verses that contradict the idea that Jesus has already come. And if I understand that your interpretation of Jesus coming in the clouds is figurative, then why did the angels say at the ascension that Jesus will return just the same way he left? I mean, why put it that way if we are not to expect our Lord to come back to us so every eye can witness?

  137. on 28 Jan 2013 at 4:08 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    I think it was said here that Jesus’ coming in the clouds is maybe the figurative coming in “clouds of glory” to be in our midst then and now?

    I rather understand the expression of “coming in the clouds” as a reference to his coming in judgment … in which his glory was displayed as he executed vengeance on apostate Israel as prophesied (cp Thess)

    When do you think we are resurrected, and where will we spend our life in the age to come?

    just as was the case with those who lived at the time of his coming (who were not resurrected but rather were changed), we who are living after the time of his coming will not go to hades upon the end of our current life to await a resurrection, but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to ever be with the Lord in God’s presence

    I can find nothing to agree with you on when I can’t understand how you deal with the verses that contradict the idea that Jesus has already come.

    I do not see any verses which would contradict the idea that Jesus has already come … I see interpretations of verses which seem to contradict the idea but those interpretations are mostly based on assumptions of how people envision things should happen in a physical manner (and please note, I am not trying to demean others but am speaking of my own experience as a believer and former teacher of futurist perspective)

    And if I understand that your interpretation of Jesus coming in the clouds is figurative, then why did the angels say at the ascension that Jesus will return just the same way he left? I mean, why put it that way if we are not to expect our Lord to come back to us so every eye can witness?

    I think the passage in Acts 1 is misunderstood as being a proof of a visible coming down from heaven out of the clouds … The passage in Acts 1 emphasizes actually the exact opposite, namely that Jesus coming would be as invisible (!!) as his departure … did not a cloud take him away OUT OF THEIR SIGHT ???

    See, I used to have this picture of “sandals in the sky” (title of a nice little song that depicted the ascension by such a picture) in my mind …. not unlike I see helicopters take off at a heliport … you see the helicopter lift off vertically and you follow it with your eyes until it maybe disappears in clouds at a height of 10 000 ft or as people see the space shuttle take off on booster rockets and then disappears in great height from view. Sort of as if Jesus took off vertically and everyone was waving “goodbye” for a while until he finally entered into some cirrus clouds and was no longer visible.

    Reading Acts 1, and considering the overall scope and picture, I now understand what happened in Acts 1 more like Jesus “disappeared” from their view (sort of the opposite of when he “appeared” in a room where the doors had been locked ) … and sure, the disciples looked up and gazed to heaven, but not because they saw him flying up there shaking his sandals in the sky for a while. I would say it was more of a gazing up to try and understand what happened as a cloud enveloped Jesus before their eyes so that they no longer could see him. His ascension was thus “invisible” to the human eye … and – as the angel then told them … the same would be the case with his coming (thus affirming what he already had prophesied by making reference to “coming on a cloud”.

    It seems to me that “Hollywood” has taken over too many minds of Christians … or do you think we really should expect Jesus standing (or perhaps sitting) on a cloud riding some distance through the skies (maybe sort of like you get in movie pictures of some fellow sitting on a flying carpet?) and then somewhere stopping the cloud and jumping off from the edge of the cloud and (of course without parachute, since he would not need one) sky diving down to an expectant crowd of all the people in the world (because supposedly every eye in the world will be able to see him coming down) …. ????

    You know, such silly scenarios are what people somehow have in mind — granted, I exaggerated a bit … all because the Scriptures are not read in their proper context, overall scope and with a proper recognition of figures of speech and to whom they were addressed and when they were written

    Cheers,
    Wolfgang

  138. on 28 Jan 2013 at 10:11 amJas

    NET © and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand here 1 looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven 2 will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven.”

    NIV ©
    “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    NASB ©
    They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

    “And if I understand that your interpretation of Jesus coming in the clouds is figurative, then why did the angels say at the ascension that Jesus will return just the same way he left? I mean, why put it that way if we are not to expect our Lord to come back to us so every eye can witness?”

    Sheryl
    This is a very good question but you left out a key word.These messengers told them that Jesus would returning the Same way they SAW him leave which means that if he was hidden in clouds after he was lifted into the sky visually then on his return he will appear out of the clouds then be lowered visually.

    Wolfgang
    I cant see how the Greek can be translated and interpreted any other way other than visually

  139. on 28 Jan 2013 at 10:57 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    I cant see how the Greek can be translated and interpreted any other way other than visually

    it’s not a matter of translation from the Greek … it’s a matter of understanding what is said … I mentioned already a few scenarios I’ve come across over the years how people (as we ll as how I myself) did or do understand this passage

    I just don’t hold any longer to the view I once held … that is, I don’t understand the verse to be speaking abut “sandals in the sky” or about a man “flying upwards” …

  140. on 28 Jan 2013 at 11:11 amJas

    Why do assume that everything that contradicts your believe is not meant literally then take words like soon or at hand to be literal when neither came literal to their actual meanings or their use in the bible in other places.
    How much plainer could the language of this verse be for you to find it as literal?
    I think it is time you use the excuse that trinitarians use, It is a mystery that is only revealed to those of your belief!
    Then I could finally understand how you believe this .

  141. on 28 Jan 2013 at 11:44 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    it’s not about “everything that contradicts your believe is not meant literally” … it’s about context. overall scope, more carefully reading words, considering how the writer has used them and when they were written and to whom etc … and – just as another important point – whether what is stated makes sense literally or whether it is part of a figure of speech.

    When we read about the time between the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, we read that he APPEARED to his disciples various times … now, some folks when reading the record about Jesus appearing in the room with locked doors, make that out to mean that Jesus “walked through the wall” … even though there is no mention of such at all. But it is what people imagine the text to mean.

    Same here in the record about the ascension … not considering circumstances and context (such as records about the times when Jesus appeared after his resurrection, etc., such as use of figures of speech involving language about “cloud” / “clouds”) people imagine the scene to be speaking about Jesus all of a sudden experiencing “lift off” and – depending on how nice the weather was on that day – flying up into a layer of clouds … totally ridiculous in light of biblical language regarding scenes where clouds were involved …

  142. on 28 Jan 2013 at 12:03 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Still none of what you explain makes any sense. To take a statement that uses so plain of language to descibe it that it makes perfect sense then distort so badly gives us a excuse to do that to every passage. If everyone done this then maybe we could expand the amount of denominations to only be limited by the amount of people who read the bible. I have no idea what the weather will be that day other than by visions from God many say there will be atleast one cloud and the ability for everyone to view this which means that the earliest time this could happen was the 20th century with a technology that God certainly revealed.

  143. on 28 Jan 2013 at 12:58 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    … and the ability for everyone to view this which means that the earliest time this could happen was the 20th century with a technology that God certainly revealed.

    “the earliest time this could happen was the 20th century with a technology that God certainly revealed ” ??? God revealed nothing whatever about a 20th century technology … rather some 20th century readers are coming up with imagination interpretations based on technology they see nowadays, and totally disregard when the Scriptures were written, to whom they were written …

  144. on 28 Jan 2013 at 1:20 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    If a vision of a far future event was given to someone in the first century they would be force to descibe it in terms of their first century mind. I see this throughout Revelation and even futher back in the prophets.
    But a vision is given of a future time is probably given in reality it only can be described by the person it is given in the terms of their time. So if by vision or word it is said All living during the generation of his return will see it then why not understand it will be possible at that time.
    So why take something that makes perfect sense like this verse then mold it to fit your belief.

  145. on 28 Jan 2013 at 2:42 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    If a vision of a far future event was given to someone in the first century they would be force to descibe it in terms of their first century mind. I see this throughout Revelation and even futher back in the prophets.

    I am sure you “see” this … I would have to “assume” or “imagine using my fantasies” .

    But a vision is given of a future time is probably given in reality it only can be described by the person it is given in the terms of their time.

    Indeed, when God has revealed something He always does so in terms that can be understood by the person receiving the information.

    So if by vision or word it is said All living during the generation of his return will see it then why not understand it will be possible at that time.

    It certainly was possible for those at the time of fulfillment … anyone to whom the events pertained “saw” the “coming of the Lord” in 70 AD … just as anyone had “seen” God’s judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah …
    No modern day technology was needed!

    So why take something that makes perfect sense like this verse then mold it to fit your belief.

    You should ask yourself that very question …. YOU are the one who comes up with the idea of the prophecy could not have been fulfilled prior to the 20 the century because the technology to have it happen in the way you imagine it was not available in centuries before …
    I need no molding of anything … I am just reading what the verse says and understand it in its proper textual as well as historical context and the overall scope of the Scriptures

  146. on 28 Jan 2013 at 3:01 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    It has become necessary that I ask you if you are a preterist literally or figuratively cause if its it figuratively, I get it and understand how and can file your belief away with trinitarianism which is a step above where I had it.

  147. on 28 Jan 2013 at 3:22 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    you are displaying a large lack of understanding of “literal” and “figurative” … I don’t know how to help change that and provide assistance so you can gain a better understanding in this vital field of Biblical study

  148. on 28 Jan 2013 at 3:40 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    I wasnt literally asking as if I thought you could be figuratively a preterist. It was making a point through sarcasm .
    This discussion has not gotten me any closer to understanding how preterist exist but has shown me to what ends they will go to.
    Maybe the next comment thread that you try to convert someone in can ask better questions of you that help me understand but as for me I cant think of anymore

  149. on 28 Jan 2013 at 8:02 pmSheryl

    Wolfgang, so are you saying when we die we are “changed” and are with the Lord right then and there? Where, pray tell? In Heaven? In spirit (invisible) on earth? So resurrection is not a physical resurrection into glorified bodies? But….the bible actually warns us about those who say Jesus has already come, or that the resurrection doesn’t really happen.

    What makes you think your interpretation of a figurative ascension (and why stress “ascension” instead of disappearance?) is more valid than mine? We must interpret using what works best with all of scripture. Maybe I have a childlike literal belief in what I read….I don’t have the training or knowledge to figure out what’s literal and what’s figurative unless it’s plainly obvious.

    …it must be as frustrating for you to try to make us “see” the way you do….as it is for me to make my loved ones “see” that the trinity is not biblical. So I remember that our number one commandment is to act in love, I appreciate that on this site we do just that. 🙂

  150. on 29 Jan 2013 at 5:07 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    Wolfgang, so are you saying when we die we are “changed” and are with the Lord right then and there?

    yes … I believe that this is what is mentioned in 1Co 15 regarding those who were alive at the time of the coming of the Lord, and this is then also what will apply to those believers living in the time after that event.

    Where, pray tell? In Heaven? In spirit (invisible) on earth?

    Where God and Jesus are … the Scriptures call it “heaven”, but do not refer with “Heaven” to “some place in stratosphere or some other planet, etc.” but rather to a “spiritual realm”. Do you think that would be a bad place to be and that you would rather be somewhere else?

    So resurrection is not a physical resurrection into glorified bodies?

    The resurrection was not a resurrection into physical bodies … the glorified body is a spiritual (and not physical) body … Jesus’ resurrected body was the glorified spiritual body … not the physical earthly body which had the wounds in which he “showed himself” / “appeared” in order to prove that it was indeed him resurrected from the dead and not some phantom.

    But….the bible actually warns us about those who say Jesus has already come, or that the resurrection doesn’t really happen.

    This is a very interesting point … why do you think was there even a concern about those claiming that the resurrection had already happened (therefore Jesus had already come) IF the common belief was that the resurrection was physical and a literal “opening and emptying of the graves” as many imagine it to be? There would be no point in making such a claim IF everybody believed the resurrection was a physical resurrection with resurrected people then living on earth … because people just needed to take a quick look around and it would be obvious that the graves were still there and no resurrected people were walking around anywhere !

    BUT IF indeed the resurrection was not one with people receiving a physical body and walking about on earth, but rather the resurrection was of a spiritual nature and those resurrected received a spiritual body and were raised to be in the presence of God, then a claim such as the one by those who began in Peter’s day to propagate that it already had happened was a real danger to the believers’ faith and even their physical lives …. seeing that Jesus had warned them about that the end of the age would be linked to the destruction of Jerusalem etc and that they were to flee from the city without hesitations in order to save their lives. A claim that the resurrection had happened would mean that the coming of the Lord had already happened and that the prophesied doom and judgment had not happened and one would not need be concerned with it any longer ….

    What makes you think your interpretation of a figurative ascension (and why stress “ascension” instead of disappearance?) is more valid than mine?

    I don’t know what the details of your interpretation/understanding of this event really are … I think an interpretation in harmony with overall scope and context (both textual and historical, circumstancial, etc) is more valid than one which concentrates on certain words and otherwise is not in harmony with the just mentioned factors.

    We must interpret using what works best with all of scripture. Maybe I have a childlike literal belief in what I read….I don’t have the training or knowledge to figure out what’s literal and what’s figurative unless it’s plainly obvious.

    I agree and have many times stated that we must interpret the Scriptures within the overall scope (or as you call it “works best with all of scripture”). Since figures of speech are a vitally important part of language, and since their use in Scripture is vitally important for a correct understanding, I have put forth effort to learn more about the field.

  151. on 29 Jan 2013 at 10:05 amJas

    “The resurrection was not a resurrection into physical bodies … the glorified body is a spiritual (and not physical) body … Jesus’ resurrected body was the glorified spiritual body … not the physical earthly body which had the wounds in which he “showed himself” / “appeared” in order to prove that it was indeed him resurrected from the dead and not some phantom.”

    This answer requires questions
    Wolfgang
    At what point did God change Jesus’ body?
    Where is the body that had wounds?
    Was Jesus’ resurrection only for proof?

  152. on 29 Jan 2013 at 10:16 amWolfgang

    Jas,

    At what point did God change Jesus’ body?

    at the time of the resurrection … “raised a spiritual body”

    Where is the body that had wounds?

    I suppose nobody knows since Scripture does not indicate or tell

    Was Jesus’ resurrection only for proof?

    Jesus’ resurrection was for the purpose of giving him eternal life.

    Jesus’ appearances after his resurrection in his physical body with his wounds, etc. was for proof (cp. Acts 1:3 “he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs” … what identified the resurrected Jesus to his disciples – who of course were living in the physical earthly realm – was his former body and appearance with the wounds, etc … remember Thomas?). This may also provide the reason why Jesus was resurrected before his physical body saw corruption (cp. Peter’s recall of David’s prophecy in Acts 2:27) … a unique circumstance which was not the case with all the other dead believers whose bodies all did see corruption.

  153. on 29 Jan 2013 at 10:56 amJas

    Wolfgang
    So it was true that someone stole his body,maybe the angels did it to make it seem that what Jesus said happened.

    So you are saying we are not changed but are given another body if we are resurrected ?

    So all the people who fled died with their natural body falling to the ground and their spiritual body ascending to Heaven.

    In Jerusalem it was reported that a million people died, this count was from someone seeing their dead body.
    Where in History does it state that in all the cities where the churches were that the elect who were to be gather together with the dead their dead left behind bodies were found?
    Are do we also reinterpret the passage that states that?

  154. on 29 Jan 2013 at 11:28 amSean

    I fail to discern the difference between a spiritual resurrection and Plato’s doctrine of immortal souls surviving death.

  155. on 29 Jan 2013 at 11:48 amJas

    Wolfgang
    Do you believe that upon receiving the Holy Spirit we will be taught how to interpret the bible properly as you do?

  156. on 29 Jan 2013 at 1:41 pmtimothy

    Sean and Jas,

    Consider:

    1 Corinthians 12: (kjv)
    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another [discerning of spirits]; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    discerning of spirits=Discerning of spirits is the supernatural ability given by the holy spirit to perceive the source of a spiritual manifestation and determine whether it is of God, of the devil, of the devil, of man, or of the world.

    of God (Acts 10:30-35)

    of the devil (Acts 16:16-18

    of man (Acts 8:18-23

    of the world

    Discerning of spirits must be done by the power of the holy spirit; ones paraclete bears witness with our spirit when something is or is not of God.
    (((((
    Romans 8: (kjv
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:(Jas–speaking in tongues is the new Christians proof, in their senses, that they have received spirit when baptized with holy spirit by Jesus Christ and is the basic manifestation of holy spirit.

    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    (((((
    Discerning of spirits is the supernatural power to detect in realm of the spirits and their activities. This implies the power of spiritual insight – the supernatural revelation of plans and purposes.

    >>>>>
    154 Sean
    I fail to discern the difference between a spiritual resurrection and Plato’s doctrine of immortal souls surviving death.

    You certainly are not speaking about using the gift of manisfestations of the spirit of truth.(as outlined above for one of the nine)

    However, to the contrary: To perceive with the eyes or intellect. To recognize or comprehend mentally. To perceive or recognize as when reading. Yes, this fleshy discernment.

    *Sean*, would you please answer this question:
    ???
    *In what way are spiritual resurrection and Platos doctrine the same and so much the same, that you a theology student of Anthony Buzzard, can not tell the difference.?*
    ???

    ***Jas***I have written most of the above to you so I can explain or better answer about the holy spirit helping to understand the scriptures. Your question was to Wolfgang, so I will wait.

    Timothy

  157. on 29 Jan 2013 at 1:49 pmWolfgang

    Sean

    I fail to discern the difference between a spiritual resurrection and Plato’s doctrine of immortal souls surviving death.

    For one, with the resurrection, those who were dead did not “survive death” but were raised from the dead to eternal life.
    Plato’s doctrine does not he involve a resurrection in the first place, or does it?

    As for believers living at the time of the coming of the Lord and afterwards, they “are changed” (cp appropriate sections in 1Co 15) at the time of their “last breath” / “end of their earthly life” and are given a new (spiritual) body enabling them to ever be in the presence of God.
    I don’t think Plato’s doctrine involves receiving a new (spiritual) body and actually does not even involve a “change”, but rather a continuance “as was” (that is, the soul – imagined as something separate from the body – “continues on” without a change) …

  158. on 29 Jan 2013 at 1:52 pmWolfgang

    Timothy

    you wrote above

    *Sean*, would you please answer this question:

    ??? *In what way are spiritual resurrection and Platos doctrine the same and so much the same, that you a theology student of Anthony Buzzard, can not tell the difference.?* ???

    I join in your question …. and in your surprise that Sean would be considering the two items basically to the same without seeing any difference

  159. on 29 Jan 2013 at 1:57 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    Wolfgang
    So it was true that someone stole his body,maybe the angels did it to make it seem that what Jesus said happened.

    ??? how could Jesus have appeared, and shown himself in his body, if someone had stolen it ?

    So you are saying we are not changed but are given another body if we are resurrected ?

    I am saying we are changed and part of the change involves “being clothed” with a spiritual body

    So all the people who fled died with their natural body falling to the ground and their spiritual body ascending to Heaven.

    ???

    In Jerusalem it was reported that a million people died, this count was from someone seeing their dead body.
    Where in History does it state that in all the cities where the churches were that the elect who were to be gather together with the dead their dead left behind bodies were found?
    Are do we also reinterpret the passage that states that?

    rather than re-interpret, I would suggest to read more carefully and understand what is written in the context and overall scope

  160. on 29 Jan 2013 at 2:05 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    Wolfgang
    Do you believe that upon receiving the Holy Spirit we will be taught how to interpret the bible properly as you do?

    I believe that God is at work within believers … which may include working within so that they can learn and arrive at a better understanding of what they read.

    I do not believe that God teaches people how to interpret the Bible properly (as in the sense which many folks seem to claim nowadays) … I believe that understanding the Bible properly involves careful reading, an objective desire to learn truth, adhering to rules of language, adherence to the overall scope and context of a passage,etc ..
    I have too many times seen over the years that exactly those folks claiming to have been taught by the Holy Spirit promoted interpretations which were not in harmony with the context or overall scope of the Scriptures. Quite obviously what they taught and how they interpreted the Bible did not originate with God via the holy spirit …

  161. on 29 Jan 2013 at 2:07 pmJas

    Discerning of spirits must be done by the power of the holy spirit; ones paraclete bears witness with our spirit when something is or is not of God.

    Timothy
    By which do you discern whether the Holy Spirit you test other spirit by is in fact by God?
    For most of my life I believed I was lead by the Holy Spirit when in no way I could have been. I do not believe that I could be misled into believing Jesus was actually God,the immortal soul doctrine and many many more doctrines I have now come out from.
    If the main purpose of the Holy Spirit is to guide In Truth then we must have the whole truth.
    My question to Wolfgang is to know what he honesty believes.

    (((((
    Romans 8: (kjv
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:(Jas–speaking in tongues is the new Christians proof, in their senses, that they have received spirit when baptized with holy spirit by Jesus Christ and is the basic manifestation of holy spirit.

    Timothy
    Maybe you have spoken in tongues but as for me I dont find the purpose of disciples doing it the way you record it. I do see the purpose in having words translated into many real languages as an aid to a ministry

  162. on 29 Jan 2013 at 2:21 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Thanks for honest answer.
    How important do you feel your preterist belief to receiving your definition of salvation?

  163. on 29 Jan 2013 at 3:07 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    Wolfgang
    Thanks for honest answer.

    you are welcome …

    How important do you feel your preterist belief to receiving your definition of salvation?

    it may not be important to a definition of salvation …

    but I can say this, that I have a better understanding of the hope and conviction which I read in the NT scriptures the early church had .. and I myself feel more convinced and ready to face persecution and tribulation than before when I was unsuccessfully striving to reach the level of hope and conviction of those early believers yet never quite managed to get there …. as I know now, it was because I had a false idea and contradictory information about their hope and expectations due to the fact that I was convinced that their hope could not have been “real” because it was based on dubious teaching (the “will come soon, but it did not happen” type of really false hope doctrine)

  164. on 29 Jan 2013 at 3:22 pmJas

    So it is of little or none importance but you feel it prepares a christian better than believing in a physical resurrection or just plain immortal soul doctrine. So if we believe their hope and expectations were real than this will help us face persecution and tribulation . My believe provides for all of that with just a long sleep which will be like a blink of an eye.
    So in truth what advantage does your belief offer me if both beliefs do not effect salvation?

  165. on 29 Jan 2013 at 3:54 pmWolfgang

    Jas,

    well then, I suppose one could forget by far most of the Scriptures and never pay any attention to them since they have no effect on salvation ?

    what then was the purpose for God inspiring all Scripture including all that information which has no immediate effect on salvation?

  166. on 29 Jan 2013 at 4:06 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Considering that your belief is just a part of my beliefs I have no problem applying most of the scriptures to the Covenants and the first resurrection.
    As far as entering the New Heaven and Earth I see no profit whether you believe you sleep till then,you go staight there or tansported through time

  167. on 29 Jan 2013 at 4:27 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Believe me I have compassion for how you are believing.

    I have tried to suggest for you to take advantage of teaching available here on KR archaives. You protested that I would suggest you could not learn it all by your own, even insinuating that I did not have an education.

    Well not only do I have a worldly education but advanced Biblical education from a teacher, which being is a gift ministry, much of which is available to you too. It is hard to be meek and learn more when we have so much distrust in the complicated doctrines now present in the comunity.

    I had never even heard of speaking in tongues at 39 years old.(i take that back I had heard about the snake handling christians)

    Being ignorant about any subject pertaining to GOD is no discrace.

    *apistia*=does not believe because has never heard.

    Hearing and believing is *pistia* and

    *peithio*=is persuaded or fully persuaded

    *apethia*=has heard and/but refuses to believe or *un-persuaded* or
    “apathy”

    Reading and perceiving the days before Pentecost and the Pentecost experience recorded in the book of acts has all the basics to actually do what is called “walking in the spirit”. Jesus explains it all.

    Also, I see that you believe GOD is the author of the bible. The NT has the words of Jesus Christ and included quoted OT words of GOD. All of the NT writers have holy spirit, Paraclete, and by revelation have written the words spoken by Jesus Christ. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, his words while here on Earth carrying out his ministry of reconciliation. The writers, Luke, John, James, Peter, Jude and Paul have written all that their Paraclete told them to write. These are the words Jesus Has for us to hear from our own Paraclete. All of this is not something I am making up or getting by twisting or distorting the scriptures.

    I speak North American English as my native tongue, and do not have the command of the language as sophisticated as Wolfgang, a German with University education. I lived in Cuba from 1951 to 1955 and speak fluent Cuban Spanish. In 1974 I completed a German “Sailmaker Apprenticeship” and later took 16 hours of college German. As well I know the German DIN teknik language.

    All of that is nonsense compared to having GOD in Christ in your Paraclete(“parakletos” comforter) to teach, communicate and direct you path.

    In #156 is some information about the manifestation of holy spirit.

    You wrote in #161
    “Timothy
    Maybe you have spoken in tongues but as for me I dont find the purpose of disciples doing it the way you record it. I do see the purpose in having words translated into many real languages as an aid to a ministry”

    Jas, it, speaking in tongues is not what you write “I do see the purpose in having words translated into many real languages as an aid to a ministry”

    Wolfgang is translating his thoughts into English as he writes on this thread.

    I do not live in Miami anymore to speak Spanish. However I can still carry on a conversation with German Tourist that come to Bike Week and read the Martin Luther German text.

    This absolutely is not what Speaking in Tongues with interpretation is when done, decently and in order, in the Church.

    Otherwise Speaking in Tongues is like the sound of my holy spirit motor purring in my mind. And just like the NASCAR racing motors need to be “run in”, so does ones holy spirit, by Speaking in Tongues.

    The lhim is a teaching ministry. To night I invite you to listen to a new class being taught live on the webcast.

    7:00—9:00 Eastern Standard Time

    http://lhim.org/webcast/webcast.php

    I am too, too tender to take rebuke for trying to carry out my ministry of reconciliation. I compel you to join us with 2 Timothy 2:15 (kjv).

    *Wolfgang*, how would you use this as a figure of speech?:

    vorsichtbissigerhund.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vorsichtbissigerhund.&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1097&bih=545&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=VC8IUa_5HYeS9QT5pIGgCg

    agapao se’

    Timothy(aka Timotheos)

  168. on 29 Jan 2013 at 6:05 pmJas

    For some reason my last comment did not show up

  169. on 29 Jan 2013 at 6:39 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    I have seen nothing and have been checking often.

    Going to take a nap and later watch the live feed link above.

    Have a great night.

    Timothy

  170. on 29 Jan 2013 at 8:20 pmSheryl

    My JW friend says Jesus’ resurrected body was totally spiritual. If he was resurrected in his old physical body, even if renewed and glorified, then death is meaningless. So Jesus’ physical body was removed somehow…I suppose you’d have to have faith in this mystery because nothing like that is in the bible. I disagree with that. From what I read, our physical body is re-incorporated from the dust it has decayed to, to a new glorified physical body capable of eating and drinking…as Jesus’ example post-resurrection proves.

    I believe a human being IS a living soul, with either a dead or living spirit (the spirit being “born” at which time the person believes in Jesus’ redemptive work.) I do not believe, as do Eastern mystics, that our spirit was eternal…that we came from a spirit realm and will return to a spirit realm upon death. Nor do we birth a spirit that goes on living after our bodies die. We die once in our bodies, are resurrected with new bodies .. if judged acceptable we are rewarded with life in the eternal age. If not we suffer the second death. Once judgement is complete, death itself is abolished.

  171. on 30 Jan 2013 at 3:56 amWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    My JW friend says Jesus’ resurrected body was totally spiritual. If he was resurrected in his old physical body, even if renewed and glorified, then death is meaningless. So Jesus’ physical body was removed somehow…I suppose you’d have to have faith in this mystery because nothing like that is in the bible.

    There is certainly rather clear information in the Bible about the resurrected body being a spiritual body rather than a physical one … cp. 1Co 15. From the records about the 40 days between the resurrection and ascension, we know that Jesus showed himself in his physical body to provide infallible proof that it actually was him who had been resurrected from the dead. This way, infallible proof was possible that he had been resurrected from the dead … afterwards, there was no such proof needed for anyone because the resurrection from the dead /respectively the change for those living at the time of his coming and afterwards) rests on the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (cp 1Co 15 opening section)

    From what I read, our physical body is re-incorporated from the dust it has decayed to, to a new glorified physical body capable of eating and drinking…as Jesus’ example post-resurrection proves.

    For one, I read nothing about our physical body re-incorporated from the dust it has decayed into.
    I also do not read anything about us receiving a new glorified PHYSICAL body … I do read of the resurrected body being a spiritual body.
    As for the example of Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances, I read that these served a specific purpose and as such are not applicable to all believers in general.

    I believe a human being IS a living soul, with either a dead or living spirit (the spirit being “born” at which time the person believes in Jesus’ redemptive work.) I do not believe, as do Eastern mystics, that our spirit was eternal…that we came from a spirit realm and will return to a spirit realm upon death. Nor do we birth a spirit that goes on living after our bodies die.

    I would see it the same …

    We die once in our bodies, are resurrected with new bodies .. if judged acceptable we are rewarded with life in the eternal age. If not we suffer the second death. Once judgement is complete, death itself is abolished.

    Indeed … and our new bodies are spiritual bodies, enabling us to live in the presence of God (which is in the spiritual realm) in the eternal age.

  172. on 30 Jan 2013 at 10:19 amSean

    Plato’s idea => the person’s mind is an invisible spiritual entity that escapes the body and lives on forever leaving the body behind

    Wolfgang’s idea => the person’s mind is changed into an invisible spiritual body that lives on forever leaving the body behind

    Biblical idea => people die, are asleep in the grave (not in heaven) until Christ comes back (still future) at which time they are bodily raised from the dead to enjoy paradise on earth

  173. on 30 Jan 2013 at 10:30 amSarah

    Wolfgang,

    Paul didn’t pull that information in 1 Cor 15 out of the air. He never taught anything that wasn’t first found in the OT. And in Ezekiel 37, there is a clear explanation of what it means to have a “spiritual” body – the Holy Spirit resurrects and permenently indwells physical bodies that will live on this earth forever. We find the same thing in Ps 104:29-30. And in Job 19:26.

    And in fact, this principle is found in Genesis 2:7. Adam is initially formed from the dust, but did not become a living creature until the breath (i.e. spirit) of life was breathed into his body. The spirit of life within him is what kept him from returning to dust. But Adam fell, and so he eventually became an inanimate body once again when the spirit left his body.

    When Christ the Last Adam rose from the grave, the spirit re-entered his body, raised it to life, and will remain there permanently. The same will be true for all who are joined to Christ.

  174. on 30 Jan 2013 at 10:42 amJas

    Timothy
    So far it still hasnt showed up but basically it says Just because I dont want you or LHIM as my teacher and want to be in charge of my own belief doesnt mean I think you are not educated. I also said What you and Wolfgang do is not what happened at pentecost . The Apostles spoke their native tongue and the Holy Spirit translated it accordingly .
    Then gave an experience of why I steer clear of tongues doctrine which none of it is claiming your claim of doing it is false because thats not a call I am qualified to make.

    Sean
    I agree Plato’s idea is almost the same

    Wolfgang
    When Jesus ascended which body was he in and do you think that if the change from physical to spiritual body happened during the 40 days it would have been extremely important to be taught by the 12 directly after that.

    Sheryl
    Please continue sharing you questions

  175. on 30 Jan 2013 at 10:59 amJas

    “When Christ the Last Adam rose from the grave, the spirit re-entered his body, raised it to life, and will remain there permanently. The same will be true for all who are joined to Christ.”

    Sarah
    This is exactly what I see in Rev 5
    5:6 Then 12 I saw standing in the middle of the throne 13 and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb that appeared to have been killed. 14 He had 15 seven horns and seven eyes, which 16 are the seven 17 spirits of God 18 sent out into all the earth.
    I think that the setting of Rev 4 that is without The Lamb is a pre ascension vision with the Holy Spirit as the power that goes out from God. the light which is how it is shown in the OT by the menorah in the Temple. Then in Rev 5 it shows that Jesus was indwelled by the Holy Spirit still

  176. on 30 Jan 2013 at 2:36 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Sorry that you lost your post. The same thing has happened to me many times, even before I clicked submit. Sometime there is an automatic hold when 3 or more links are attached to your post.

    your # 174,

    ” I also said What you and Wolfgang do is not what happened at pentecost . The Apostles spoke their native tongue and the Holy Spirit translated it accordingly ”

    What are Wolfgang and I doing?

    I am doing what all the early Christians did in the book of acts.

    I am doing what the Corinthians church did after Apostle Paul reproofed and corrected them.

    I am doing what countless scripture explain and exhort.

    I am doing the part that Jesus taught about, where by spiritual means, he will speak to me by the words he spoke before and after his Ascension. And by they way this a joyful experience.

    There are folklore adages:

    You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

    A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

    I do not know what Sean believes about the subject. Knowing that he has been taught the same is no guaranteeing he follows.

    You have written about the ends you have pursued to understand about Wolfgangs new belief. But seem to disregard my trying to lead you to hear about the most basic spiritual matter.

    Jas, you have a vast knowledge from reading GODs word and I have learned and picked up many things from reading your post. You two also write some things I have not yet grasped.

    Today there is a lot of “there are some that do and some that do not.

    A) Believe Jesus Christ preexisted his human conception and birth.

    B) Believe Jesus Christ is GOD.

    C) Believe Jesus Christ is an angle.

    D) Believe that one must be water baptized to become a christian.

    E) Believe the Sabbath is Saturday, Sunday or every day of the week.

    I wish Wolfgang would write to us about what he is believing now about speaking in tongues and if he ever did, how did it help with his DDR fellowship?

    Jas, peace and GODs loving kindness.

    agapao se’

    Timothy

  177. on 30 Jan 2013 at 3:09 pmJas

    Timothy
    Lets start with your ability to have a conversion with people of other languages, the ability is a product of education not a gift of the Holy Spirit and is not what happened in Acts. In Acts understanding was provided to people of other languages , a gift that would be very profitable in a ministry .In the Corinthians church I see people claiming gifts to exalt themself and I see Paul correcting them of doing them. Now this is what I see which may be a correct assumption or not. If one day my study brings questions to my assumption then I will revisit it. If I had a nickle for everytime someone invited me their church and got offended when I declined I am sure I would have at least $3. So please do not take offense because at this present time I dont feel right about visiting your church.
    Yes I am very outspoken in my belief and yes I can understand that many do not understand it but if they desire to understand what I believe all they have to do is ask and if they feel I am in error then I welcome their reasons.
    Honestly I feel discussion is a very profitable tool in seeking the truth and that is my only motive for being here.

  178. on 30 Jan 2013 at 3:34 pmWolfgang

    Sean

    Wolfgang’s idea => the person’s mind is changed into an invisible spiritual body that lives on forever leaving the body behind

    I don’t remember ever having expressed such an idea

  179. on 30 Jan 2013 at 3:46 pmJas

    Wolfgang
    Have you actually studied Plato because the extreme similarity is very evident .
    Just how do you claim that a person retains their identity ?

  180. on 30 Jan 2013 at 3:54 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Here is what is written about the apostles on Pentecost:

    Acts 2:
    (kjv)
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    (NASB)
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues(Or languages), as the Spirit was giving them utterance(Or ability to speak out).

    This is what is recorded and this is not what you have written that happened.

    your #174:

    “” I also said What you and Wolfgang do is not what happened at Pentecost . The Apostles spoke their native tongue and the Holy Spirit translated it accordingly ””

    Does not say they spoke and then the holy spirit translated what they spoke. They spoke straight out of the mouth the utterance, their Paraclete, the holy spirit of truth gave them.

    There are two phenomena at Pentecost.

    ((A phenomenon (Greek: φαινόμενoν, from the Greek word ‘phainomenon’, from the verb ‘phanein’, to show, shine, appear, to be manifest (or manifest itself)),[1] plural phenomena, is any observable occurrence.[2] Phenomena are often, but not always, understood as ‘appearances’ or ‘experiences’. These are themselves sometimes understood as involving qualia.))

    Acts 2: (kjv)
    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

    8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

    These two phenomena only are recorded as happening here at Pentecost.

    All of the other five instances in the book of acts do not have tongues of fire or as in verse 8.

    1 Corinthians 12-13-14 is like an instruction manual. Corinthians is a reproof and correction epistle with at least 11 errors being practiced and condoned by the church.( reproof and correction 2 Timothy 3:16)

    Here is one Sunday teaching that will at least save me anymore stress in trying to lovingly explain to you, so that you will at the very least will have an opertunity to be:

    *peithio*=is persuaded

    or

    *apethia*=un-persuaded

    I just read you post #177

    “In Acts understanding was provided to people of other languages , a gift that would be very profitable in a ministry”

    It is not a gift but part of the whole gift. This is not to be an tongue twister. There are many different kinds(and many different Greek words) of gifts.
    Each person receives the same measure of holy spirit, no more or no less than another.

    “Yes I am very outspoken in my belief and yes I can understand that many do not understand it but if they desire to understand what I believe all they have to do is ask and if they feel I am in error then I welcome their reasons.”

    Jas I just gave the two verses, above, Acts 2: 3 and 8. I think you are in error and give this link to an easy to understand teaching.

    By the way I recently gave this link and they fell short, for their own loss, by not at least hearing the whole teaching.

    http://lhim.org/sunday/teaching_notes.php?id=350&mode=audio&page=2&find_me=

    At this point I would rather not hear anymore about this subject here and now.

    Timothy

  181. on 30 Jan 2013 at 3:54 pmWolfgang

    Sarah,

    Paul didn’t pull that information in 1 Cor 15 out of the air. He never taught anything that wasn’t first found in the OT. And in Ezekiel 37, there is a clear explanation of what it means to have a “spiritual” body – the Holy Spirit resurrects and permenently indwells physical bodies that will live on this earth forever.

    I have not read that idea in Eze 37 …. even though I have heard that section used by numbers of people to prove something similar to what you suggest.

    We find the same thing in Ps 104:29-30. And in Job 19:26.

    Again, just looked up those scripture verses again and could not find what you suggest is to be found there .

    As for Job 19:26, a closer look at the Hebrew and comparing several English translations will provide a more correct insight and understanding, which is that the verse says nothing about “in my flesh shall I see God” (as in KJV) but rather “yet from [away from / separate from] my flesh I shall see God” (as in NASB) I am surprised that you seem unable to get what the first part of that verse declares … where clear indication is given from the words of Job that he certainly knew what was to happen to his skin and fleshly body. His hope was NOT to live again in his flesh seeing God (for such is impossible … cp 1Co 15 where you can read that “flesh” does not enter or inherit the kingdom of God) but he hoped to see God “away from” (that is, without) his flesh body.

  182. on 30 Jan 2013 at 4:02 pmWolfgang

    Jas

    Have you actually studied Plato because the extreme similarity is very evident.

    as I indicated in a post, I see not even a similarity … but then, you folks seem a lot smarter and a whole lot more knowledgeable than I am about Plato and even about the future …

  183. on 30 Jan 2013 at 4:14 pmWolfgang

    Hi there,

    I am spending too much time and effort here trying to answer questions and share insights and the little knowledge of the Scriptures I have and examining what others have to say as well in order to reply in detail with scriptural points to others’ posts … At this time, I see no point in continuing …

    Have fun believing what you believe and hoping what you hope … I don’t care any longer about providing anything from my end, and will instead seriously consider investing my time and efforts differently.

  184. on 30 Jan 2013 at 5:20 pmSarah

    Wolfgang,

    It’s probably best to agree to disagree on this subject at this point. I just want to say again that I believe you have raised several legitimate challenges to the standard futurist eschatological model. And I have also appreciated your contributions in the One God discussions we’ve had on this forum. I hope you’ll continue to participate in the future, because your presence is valued.

    Jas (#175),

    I think that the setting of Rev 4 that is without The Lamb is a pre ascension vision with the Holy Spirit as the power that goes out from God. the light which is how it is shown in the OT by the menorah in the Temple.

    Very interesting thought. That would certainly fit the context.

  185. on 30 Jan 2013 at 5:28 pmJohn

    There is a spiritual war going on that most Christians are not even aware of. It’s a war of doctrinal beliefs pertaining to the character of God and what a child of God looks like. God, at this very moment, is preparing a people for a coming kingdom of which nothing that defiles will enter in.

    The Spirit of God is given to people to change them into becoming a holy nation and a peculiar people that God can call His own.

    Ezekiel 36:25-28 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

    This cannot be done without the Law of God and Satan knows it.

  186. on 30 Jan 2013 at 5:51 pmJas

    John
    I agree but why do you condemn those who choose not to be Israel by the Words of the Covenants.
    Grace has been given to all mankind not just Israel

  187. on 30 Jan 2013 at 9:52 pmJas

    Timothy
    The last thing I want is to offend you but if I am not honest about what I feel and believe then I am of profit to myself and others.For some reason this subject has always caused emotional responses and has even cost me friendships , I see what I see and have tried very hard to find a way to believe for the sake of friendships . I could have faked it but really what kind of a friend would that make me.

    So we disagree on a few things but we agree on a few things too. You provide a unique perspective that does challenge me.
    we should probably steer clear of this subject

  188. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:49 amTim (aka Antioch)

    Wolfgang,

    I appreciate your presence here as well. You were the first to expose me to preterism and though I may have some differences of opinion interpreting particular passages the same way you do, I don’t doubt your sincerity and your passion for truth. I would miss you if you stopped posting.

    Love and Peace

  189. on 31 Jan 2013 at 3:06 amJohn

    Jas

    Grace motivates obedience, not lawlessness. Grace is the reason why a law breaker is still alive it’s not a reason why there is no Law to obey. A misunderstanding of God’s grace leads to lawlessness and ungodliness.

    Titus 2:11-13 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

  190. on 31 Jan 2013 at 9:34 amJohn

    Some people say Jesus’ Law was different from the Law which was given by the finger of God. The say the Law given by the finger of God was Moses law so there is no need to obey Moses. This is a lie from the depths of deception.

    The Law of Jesus is the same Law of His Father. The law of Moses pertains to the penalties for breaking the Law of God. The law of God was placed inside the Ark of the covenant, whereas, the law of Moses was placed outside of the Ark of the covenant. This in itself testifies they are different from each other. Both the life and teachings of Messiah are for our example. Jesus paid our sin debt, the Law is not sin. The Law is holy, just and good. Under the old covenant the motive for obedience was, “I must obey” but under the new covenant it’s, “I want to obey”. Grace is what allows all this to work.

    Listen to the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant.

    John 8:1-11 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act….

    Adultery is a violation of God’s Law, which was written with God’s hand. Lets continue reading…

    ….Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned.

    Moses law, which was written by Moses hand, gives the penalty for breaking God’s Law. Lets continue reading…

    But what do You say?” This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear. So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last.

    Under the old covenant she should have been stoned to death. Lets continue reading…

    …And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

    Now don’t shut your brain off just yet…Listen, Jesus withheld the penalty for breaking God’s Law, which is found in the law of Moses. He did not do away with God’s Law because He goes on to say, “Go and sin no more”. Jesus is not saying she is no longer under God’s Law so she can no go out a commit adultery again. No, no, no… He says, “Go and sin no more”.

  191. on 31 Jan 2013 at 10:30 amJas

    John
    In John 8:1-11 the reason this person was not stoned was because None of those that brought charges against her were righteous by the Law themselves not because there was not punishments.
    This story is very similar to what you are doing here when you claim Grace is achievable and maintainable by the Law but you fail to be perfect in it.
    Grace is Grace which is offered freely and equally to all mankind from Adam to the last ,the Law is by choice which can only provide for a reward if used properly . it should convict us therefore bringing us to offer an acceptable sacrifice which until Jesus was the Law for Righteousness

  192. on 31 Jan 2013 at 11:16 amJohn

    Jas

    If that were true then it would also be true under the old covenant. Were people stoned under the old covenant? Who stoned them?

    We all deserved to be stoned because we all have sinned and if we lived under the old covenant we would be stoned but thanks be to God through the cross of His Son Jesus.

    God’s Law is holy, just and good. If you are a child of God you would rejoice in the Law because it is holy, just and good. Do away with the Law and what you will have left is what you see in the world today.

  193. on 31 Jan 2013 at 11:31 amJas

    John
    Your confusion begins when you equate 1st century judaism with Words of the Covenants. Yes within the OT law there were offenses punishable with stoning even hanging but there were certain things that had to be established first like 2 witnesses and someone to pass this judgement. You really think that this woman should have been stoned by OT law?

  194. on 31 Jan 2013 at 11:37 amJohn

    Jas

    I have to give you credit, you are working hard at trying to prove something that is not there.

    God’s Law has not been done away with by Jesus, including the seventh day Sabbath.

    Just think for a minute what this world would be like if everyone just kept one of the Ten Commandments perfectly. Let’s say from this point on no one stole anymore or killed anymore. Would there be a big change in the world? Would it be a change for good or evil? Would the change effect the economy and how would it effect it? Would people view the change as bondage or freedom?

  195. on 31 Jan 2013 at 11:47 amXavier

    John

    God’s Law has not been done away with by Jesus, including the seventh day Sabbath.

    How do you explain the FACT that Jesus says he works on the Sabbath? Thus, as the writer of John states, he was “breaking the Sabbath” [John 5]?

  196. on 31 Jan 2013 at 11:54 amJas

    John
    Do you not read what I write.This is not the first time you claim I claim The Law of God that was setup to Govern his set apart people was done away.
    Again I emphasize the Law of God and the promises attached can not de done away with unless our present earh ceast to exist.
    But your type of legalism does not follow the bible and is contrary to Grace which is given freely.

  197. on 31 Jan 2013 at 11:59 amJas

    Xavier
    You would do very well by researching where in the Law of God your claim Jesus broke the Sabbath is located. I will give you a hint by telling you it doesnt exist but did and do exist in Scribal law and Pharisees’ law of 2nd temple judaism

  198. on 31 Jan 2013 at 12:05 pmXavier

    Jas

    You would do very well by researching where in the Law of God your claim Jesus broke the Sabbath is located.

    “Because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.” John 5.16-18

  199. on 31 Jan 2013 at 12:16 pmJas

    Xavier
    This is not proof Jesus broke the Sabbath written in the Law of God ,this is showing he was acussed of breaking by the definition of the jewish leaders. where is it also written that claiming God as our father written in the Law of God.
    Another hint it doesnt exist but did and do exist in Scribal law and Pharisees’ law of 2nd temple judaism

  200. on 31 Jan 2013 at 12:34 pmJohn

    Xavier

    There were many sabbaths in the old testament. They were all instituted after creation as a result of sin. They were the shadows that pointed to Christ of which He fulfilled. The sabbath in John 5 was not the seventh day Sabbath, but rather, it was one of the sabbaths that were instituted after creation as a result of sin. Those have been done away with.

    The seventh day of creation is not only blessed time, it’s protected time as well. Jesus is Lord of the seventh day Sabbath. All the other sabbaths have been done away with.

  201. on 31 Jan 2013 at 12:48 pmJas

    John
    Why dont you research 2nd temple judaism AKA the traditions of the elders (Scribal law and Pharisees’ law). If you did you would find that Jesus did break the Sabbath by their traditional definition and you will also find Jesus also broke THEIR law by claiming God as his Father by their traditional definition.
    If either was true then Jesus was not sinless

  202. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:00 pmXavier

    John

    The sabbath in John 5 was not the seventh day Sabbath…

    Most, if not all, scholars would disagree with this.

    Regardless, whatever Sabbath you think it refers to it is still Torah Jesus says he is breaking.

  203. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:00 pmJohn

    Jas

    Oh! Now I get it. I can be a little slow at times.

  204. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:11 pmJohn

    Xavier

    Okay, lets say it is the seventh day Sabbath. It does not matter either way because the religious Jews still missed the true meaning of the Sabbath.

    The teachings of Jesus did not do away with the Sabbath, they restored honor to it when He put it back in its right perspective in that it was made for man and not man for it. This was also an old testament principle as will Jesus was restoring in His teachings of Sabbath observance. Listen and notice how He points them back to the old testament to teach them the principle that when something needs to be done on the Sabbath it’s not a violation of the Sabbath. Read it carefully…

    Matthew 12:1-8 At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!” But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the show bread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

    There are many things that can come up on the Sabbath. If we keep the Sabbath in a ritualistic way, such as the religious Jews did, you are in violation of the spirit of the Law.

  205. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:18 pmXavier

    John

    The teachings of Jesus did not do away with the Sabbath…

    Why did his apostles think it was a yoke they nor the new Gentile converts could bear? Acts 15.

  206. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:21 pmJas

    John
    very well put
    The Sabbath was given as a blessing not a burden but in Jesus’ day there had been invented some 1500+ laws on the Sabbath

  207. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:23 pmXavier

    Jas

    “So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?”

  208. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:24 pmJas

    Xavier
    Because in 2nd temple judaism it had became a burden

  209. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:25 pmXavier

    Jas

    S you don’t tell converts to keep Torah at all?

  210. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:29 pmJas

    Xavier
    Please read the OT on the subject of the Sabbath in which you will not ever find it could ever be a burden. That would be like saying a day off is a burden to workers.
    But if they couldnt even apply an anesthetic on a tooth ache then even a day off can be a burden

  211. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:37 pmJas

    Xavier
    Accepting the words of the Covenants are a choice not mandatory .Grace has been given to all mankind but Grace doesnt make void the promises of God for his set apart people.
    I would have done the same thing the counsel did which allowed for people to hear God’s words preached so they could choose whether or not they wanted to become a citizen of the coming kingdom.

  212. on 31 Jan 2013 at 1:56 pmJohn

    Xavier

    John

    The teachings of Jesus did not do away with the Sabbath…

    Why did his apostles think it was a yoke they nor the new Gentile converts could bear? Acts 15.

    The Apostles never thought of the commandments of God as a yoke of bondage, as a matter of fact, James called it the Law of liberty.

    Is it bondage when people don’t steal from you or try to kill you or is it freedom for you?

    In Acts 15 you had many new converts who had a lot to learn about their new life in Christ. Paul didn’t want to burden them with a whole bunch of stuff so he just gave them some thing to watch out for, probably because they were the issues of that time. If it was the end all of what they need to know then stealing and killing is all go to go, as well as, all the other commandments not mentioned. He goes on to say how not to burden them with so much stuff at once because they will get the rest of what they need to know because it’s taught every Sabbath.

  213. on 31 Jan 2013 at 4:01 pmXavier

    John

    The Apostles never thought of the commandments of God as a yoke of bondage, as a matter of fact, James called it the Law of liberty.

    Paul echoes the council’s description of Torah as “a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear”:

    It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

    Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole Law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Gal 5

  214. on 31 Jan 2013 at 4:31 pmJohn

    Xavier

    Trying to doing anything accept receiving the blood of Christ as our justification is a yoke of bondage but obeying God because you love His is not.

    There is a big difference between obedience as a means to salvation and obedience as a result of salvation. Paul continued to teach the difference between the two.

  215. on 31 Jan 2013 at 4:41 pmJas

    Xavier
    Really you need to research 2nd temple judaism to understand who is the circumcision that is being spoke of and what law they were obligated to obey in whole . Righteousness was only obtainable by being perfect in the law but one could be accounted righteousness by the Law for Righteousness which was the Law of sacrifices that God added so a person could be accounted righteous. The law for Righteousness was fulfilled when Jesus was perfect in All the God given Commandments therefore he became that law as the Sacrifice which all Sin Sacrifices pointed to. These men of judaism were still claiming that the Law could make you righteous but without the Law for Righteousness the only way to be righteous was by being perfect in the law which as you know took 4000 years for someone to achieve that. These men of Judaism were still requiring conversion to judaism and righteousness from being perfect and probably animal sacrifices when they fell short but did not understand that animal sacrifices for being accounted righteousness were done away with by the true sacrifice .

    But thats your choice

  216. on 31 Jan 2013 at 4:57 pmXavier

    Jas

    Paul was a Jew right? To what other Law would a Jew be referring to in connection with circumcision of the flesh? :/

  217. on 31 Jan 2013 at 5:04 pmJohn

    Jesus didn’t teach us freedom from Sabbath observance, He taught us freedom in Sabbath observance.

    Mark 3:4 Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

    Luke 6:9 Then Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?”

  218. on 31 Jan 2013 at 5:13 pmJas

    Xavier
    The law of the jews which required conversion to hear God’s word preached . The law of Moses didnt require conversion.
    But lets say that the jews were only pushing God’s laws as a means of righteousness which was only possible if a person was perfect in them like Jesus was.But more than likely they pushed manmade laws along with God’s laws and probably were requiring sacrifices still.
    Like I said you would do well to research 2nd temple judaism so you would be on par with what Paul knew.

  219. on 31 Jan 2013 at 5:19 pmXavier

    John & Jas

    Are you guys brothers? 😛

  220. on 31 Jan 2013 at 5:42 pmJas

    Xavier
    no more ,no less then we are brothers

  221. on 31 Jan 2013 at 6:10 pmJohn

    We are brothers in the Lord who, along with Jesus, desire to do our Father’s will who is in heaven. I believe that is the case for all who are here seeking to know Him who called us.

  222. on 31 Jan 2013 at 6:48 pmDoubting Thomas

    Amen – Jas and John… 😉

  223. on 31 Jan 2013 at 9:43 pmRay

    One of the reasons I have for the hope that is in me, that upon my death I will be taken into heaven by the holy Spirit, being clothed thereby is because of how Jesus talked about going unto the Father just before he faced the cross.

    He spoke of how in a little while his disciples would not see him, and then in a little while that they would.

    When I die I won’t have any appetite for physical things such as ice cream, is what I suspect. I suppose that that part of my soul will have died while the part of me that is connected with Christ through faith in him and the word I have received by the Spirit will be joined with him in heaven, for he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit as the scripture teaches. In heaven I will have no desire to marry. I suspect I wouldn’t give such a thing a second thought as I would in no way be in the body of flesh anymore where my soul now abides, that is to say, in a body of flesh and blood.

  224. on 31 Jan 2013 at 9:50 pmJohn

    Ray

    Jesus ate and drank in His glorified body. I just think that maybe the ice cream will be free and won’t make you fat. : )

  225. on 01 Feb 2013 at 10:13 amRay

    In heaven whatever we do will be for the purposes of the kingdom and not for our own selves. What we eat we will eat because God gives us that to eat and it will be very good indeed.

  226. on 01 Feb 2013 at 10:19 amSean

    Ray,

    No one is going to heaven. Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek, they shall inherit the earth” (Matthew 5.5). Besides, all the food is on earth anyhow 😉

  227. on 01 Feb 2013 at 10:34 amJohn

    Sean

    I didn’t want to go there just yet. But you are correct, no one goes to heaven. The kingdom of God will be a renewed earth. Remember how Jesus taught us to pray, “Thy kingdom come…”. This is our great hope in Christ, not dying and going to heaven.

  228. on 01 Feb 2013 at 12:08 pmSean

    John,

    Good point. Much error on this thread of 228 comments could be cleared up rather easily if people just read the article that they are supposedly commenting on, “A Long Lost Hope.” The evacuation of earth is foreign to Scripture.

  229. on 01 Feb 2013 at 12:40 pmtimothy

    Sean,

    AMEN and:

    21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    Timothy

  230. on 01 Feb 2013 at 1:24 pmXavier

    Sean

    You really expect some people to read what you guys post?

    😛

  231. on 01 Feb 2013 at 6:53 pmJas

    Actually I think the comments provide more info then the articles that prompted the discussions from what I have read so far which would equate to many novels . I think Wolfgang read it and I know I read it more than once plus addressed Wolfgang questions referring to the article.As far as the off topic comments most navigated honestly.
    What error is there with an open dialogue if understanding is what you seek.

  232. on 01 Feb 2013 at 7:41 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    Yes I actually learned very much from your teaching about the second temple Judean folklore traditions of men. I see a lot better why Jesus was confronting those people who actually had hearts of ice and were not manifesting and loving with GOD’s love fruits towards their fellow man.

    Jesus standard operation procedure was to heal by rebuking the evil spirits causing the sickness. He operated 7 of the manifestations and was not judging but rather forgiving and exhorting to repent and not sin anymore.

    It is the same for us today repent and stop sinning. Pray to GOD to help you stop sinning and for a righteous heart. And if and when one sins we have an advocate(our Paraclete) to intercede when we are sorry and seek forgiveness. This just is illogical if we can only be forgiven once a week as with RCC Saturday confessions.

    The Parable of Prodigal son is mentioned often in my prayers seeking forgiveness. Staying in fellowship is like the Daytona 500 with out making a pit stop(maybe to change tires once in a while). Have your gas tank filled with perseverance and stay in the race to receive your prize at the return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection and ones new body.

    It is a 24/7 relationship we are to maintain with our GOD through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Going straight to heaven or hell when one dies is not what our church epistles teach. And makes any logical mind picture about the resurrection/change void. Why have a resurrection when you are all ready there. Of course our doctrine is for GODs kingdom being on Earth and not in heaven.

    KR now has several threads about the biblical truth written about HELL.

    We have HOPE as our anchor and this is where I get derailed thinking away from the so call “futurist” belief.

    I enjoyed reading you post, despite the flak clouds that often followed.

    Timothy

  233. on 01 Feb 2013 at 8:37 pmJas

    Timothy
    I have learned much from you along with others the last 6 months I have been reading this blog.
    The articles and discussion are very thought provoking .The only thing I wish is the writers would join in more often so I could get to know them better.

  234. on 02 Feb 2013 at 2:43 amWolfgang

    Sean,

    a short note to your above comment

    Much error on this thread of 228 comments could be cleared up rather easily if people just read the article that they are supposedly commenting on, “A Long Lost Hope.”

    this type of attitude is not appreciated at all … It almost looked as if you think that only those who agree with what a writer writes in article have read the article? those who do not agree with an article are in error … ?

    The evacuation of earth is foreign to Scripture.

    who has said anything about “an evacuation of earth”? there will always be people living on earth … having the opportunity to make their choice of either turning to God and believing or else reject God and His Messiah.

    Enough said ….

  235. on 02 Feb 2013 at 4:50 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    You said:

    “Enough said”

    I say:

    “ganzastreinfeingehobeltantworten”

    Agapao se’

    Timotheus

  236. on 02 Feb 2013 at 5:03 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    PS:

    Also I must add idiomatic Ostfriesland isch figure of speech:

    “WogehobeltwirddafallenSpäne”

    Timothy

  237. on 02 Feb 2013 at 7:09 amRay

    Sean,

    The meek that shall inherit the earth are the ones who will be taken to heaven to be with the Lord when they die. Not only does the Christian look forward to being in heaven with the Lord, but he also looks forward to a new heaven and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

  238. on 03 Feb 2013 at 1:39 pmJas

    Ray
    You believe that at the end of days you will be returned to the renewed earth and since time is nonexistent during sleep your belief is not at odds with mine.

  239. on 04 Feb 2013 at 10:19 amSean

    Ray,

    This is an unusual theory. Why would we want to come back to earth and be re-embodied after living in heaven for thousands of years? Why do you see a need to include a round trip to heaven in your theology?

  240. on 04 Feb 2013 at 1:04 pmJas

    Sean
    I ask this of Wolfgang so in all fairness I ask you or anyone who also wants to answer.

    What advantage does your belief have over Ray’s or others?

  241. on 04 Feb 2013 at 5:37 pmRay

    Let’s suppose that the Christian who dies looses the part of his soul that desires the fleshly carnal things that he’s learned of on this earth because he inherited a nature of the flesh.

    Let’s suppose those things of his soul dies while the part of his soul that is joined to the Lord is one spirit in him, and that by the holy Spirit, his spirit along with that part of the soul that is a part of the spirit of Christ that is in him, is taken by God to be with him in heaven, in the presence of Christ and the whole heavenly family, where he hears, sees, and learns things of the kingdom of heaven.

    Let’s suppose that at some future time, the Lord returns to this earth with his saints and at that time this earth is destroyed but those who are the called of God, the redeemed by the Lord are gathered together unto him.

    Then let’s suppose God creates a new heaven and earth by Jesus Christ wherein dwells righteousness and the Christian at that time partakes of the resurrection.

    Might just be more truth in that than anything else.

  242. on 04 Feb 2013 at 8:02 pmtimothy

    Ray,

    Hello again. I have been reading you comments for several years now.

    I have posted many times to you.

    Our KR moderator Sean, lovingly to answer your questions, made this teaching last Sunday. He covers a lot of scripture that shows where Christians will be.

    Please that the time to listen and comment to Sean here on KR.

    ***Heaven Is Not My Home***:

    http://lhim.org/sunday/teaching_notes.php?id=459&mode=audio

    Timothy

  243. on 04 Feb 2013 at 8:29 pmJas

    Timothy
    Heaven is where God actually dwells.
    Where else will be your home when God dwells upon this earth?

  244. on 04 Feb 2013 at 8:45 pmtimothy

    Ray,

    Hold tight.

    Hear are the teachings notes:

    Vision
    Daniel 7:1-8 Vision of the four beasts: a lion, a bear, a leopard, a dreadful beast, little horn

    Daniel 7:9-12 The Ancient of Days passes judgment against the dreadful beast.

    Daniel 7:13-14 The Son of Man rules over all peoples forever.

    Daniel 7:15 Daniel’s response

    Interpretation
    Daniel 7:16-18 First clarification – the beasts are kings, but saints will receive a Kingdom and rule forever.

    Daniel 7:19-27 Second clarification – the fourth kingdom and the little horn who persecutes the saints

    Daniel 7:28 Daniel’s response

    The Saints Will Reign
    Matthew 19:28; 20:21-23; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 2:26-27; 5:9-10; 20:6

    Kingdom Driven
    Luke 4:43; Matthew 24:14

    Timothy

  245. on 04 Feb 2013 at 9:48 pmJas

    Here are bible notes

    7:9 After these things I looked, and here was 13 an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, 14 people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands. 7:10 They were shouting out in a loud voice,

    “Salvation belongs to our God, 15

    to the one seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

    7:11 And all the angels stood 16 there in a circle around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they threw themselves down with their faces to the ground 17 before the throne and worshiped God, 7:12 saying,

    “Amen! Praise and glory,

    and wisdom and thanksgiving,

    and honor and power and strength

    be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”

    7:13 Then 18 one of the elders asked 19 me, “These dressed in long white robes – who are they and where have they come from?” 7:14 So 20 I said to him, “My lord, you know the answer.” 21 Then 22 he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation. They 23 have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb! 7:15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve 24 him day and night in his temple, and the one seated on the throne will shelter them. 25 7:16 They will never go hungry or be thirsty again, and the sun will not beat down on them, nor any burning heat, 26 7:17 because the Lamb in the middle of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

    21:1 Then 1 I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had ceased to exist, 2 and the sea existed no more. 21:2 And I saw the holy city – the new Jerusalem – descending out of heaven from God, made ready like a bride adorned for her husband. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Look! The residence 3 of God is among human beings. 4 He 5 will live among them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them. 6 21:4 He 7 will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will not exist any more – or mourning, or crying, or pain, for the former things have ceased to exist.”

    Notice that God is dwelling amongst mankind the first time plain jane christians are mentioned and are icluded into the multitude but are wearing white robes.

    The 144,000 represents those of the Mosiac covenant and Mosiac covenant christians and the first part of Revelation 20 is their resurrection .

    So Timothy what real advantage does your belief have over Ray’s other than you understand that you will sleep till then but awake like it was a second later.

  246. on 04 Feb 2013 at 10:34 pmRay

    Supposing that as a Christian departs this world (dies) he comes into the presence of the Lord to be with him, be taught of him, be with the family in heaven, witness the things of heaven, and worship, then comes back with the Lord to be on this earth in the resurrection, but just before setting foot on this earth, the Lord gathers together the saints left on this earth, this being the resurrection, meeting him in the clouds, then whatever events take place on this earth, before the creation of a new one where the saints will reign with him, then we have some kind of rough sketch of events that may happen.

    At this time, this is how I imagine it could be.

  247. on 04 Feb 2013 at 11:03 pmtimothy

    Jas,

    I have implored you at least one time “to hold your horses”. Sure you have seizures and go on your temper tantrums. I see it as not really being loving when you surely see that here Jay is trying to learn and express himself and others have tried to communicate with him.

    Mainly Sean, who has even given a teaching, which I am short cutting to Ray so that he may listen and have more to consider.

    Would you please check out “Hypergraphia” and where you stand with your Hypergraphia, here evidenced, behavior.

    Jas, I beg your pardon, what is a “plain jane christians”?

    Sean, Wolfgang and Xavier do you have any idea about what this new denomination of plain Jane Christians is all about.

    “So Timothy what real advantage does your belief have over Ray’s other than you understand that you will sleep till then but awake like it was a second later.”

    There is no question mark so I’ll just say that as of yet there is no real advantage being revealed.

    Jas, does this mean you are one of the 144,000 or a none plane Jane Christian:

    “The 144,000 represents those of the [Mosiac] covenant and [Mosiac] covenant christians and the first part of Revelation 20 is their resurrection.”

    [Mosiac]=Mosaic

    Actually I would like to read a discourse between you and Xavier.

    Faith, Hope, and Love of GOD.

    Timothy

  248. on 04 Feb 2013 at 11:17 pmJas

    Timothy
    I have held my tongue over and over again but your rudeness that you put out is very unbecoming of the faith you are representing. please do not exalt yourself over anyone anymore. please leave out your emotional responses.

    You have no more of the truth than Ray

  249. on 04 Feb 2013 at 11:22 pmJas

    Jas, does this mean you are one of the 144,000 or a none plane Jane Christian:

    No, I dont claim that or ever claimed.
    I am a plane jane christian with a hope of uncovering enough truth for a shot at the reward, if not salvation by Grace will suite me just fine.

  250. on 05 Feb 2013 at 3:39 amSheryl

    Jas, that’s a good question (what advantage does your faith have over others) and something I ponder a lot given the adamant and steadfast interpretations of scripture held by others around me (not just here) that seem to contradict the interpretation I find most rational and, I don’t know…comfortable – the interpretation that fits the best with the other truths in the bible. I would say that’s the advantage my belief has over the alternate beliefs….what I believe can be confirmed using scripture instead of tradition or teaching of men. If I am reading the bible and what I currently believe is contradicted in scripture I will endeavor to find out why…if I am in error I eagerly seek out and pray for truth and revelation.

    I think after truly being in doctrinal error and not being able to read and understand God’s word, has given me the ability to recognize the truth (hopefully!) to where now the bible is alive and cohesive and exciting to me. I fear most that I may become so arrogant in my “truth” that I will close myself off and never realize that maybe I was wrong. However, I am quite certain that I now have a good grasp of bible teaching…it just confounds me that five people can read the same book in the bible and come up with five different interpretations that contradict each other, and yet those five people are just as certain they have the correct interpretation. Is it possible, I wonder, that God has a “different” message to each of us…and we are all right? Is it the same truth revealed in different, but correct, ways to each of us?

  251. on 05 Feb 2013 at 4:59 amWolfgang

    Timothy

    Please that the time to listen and comment to Sean here on KR.
    ***Heaven Is Not My Home***:
    http://lhim.org/sunday/teaching_notes.php?id=459&mode=audio

    Phil 3:20 (NASB)
    For our citizenship is in heaven, …

  252. on 05 Feb 2013 at 7:43 amtimothy

    Wolfgang,

    2 Timothy 3:16 doctrine-reproof-correction

    DOCTRINE

    Ephesians 2: (nasb)
    6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

    REPROOF

    Philippians 3: (nasb)
    20 For our citizenship(commonwealth) is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

    CORRECTION

    Colossians 3: (nasb)
    3 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

    Timothy

  253. on 05 Feb 2013 at 9:28 amSarah

    Hi Wolfgang,

    Since you are back and have continued the discussion 🙂

    Phil 3:30 (NASB)
    For our citizenship is in heaven, …

    It wouldn’t surprise me if Paul had this Psalm in mind:

    “I will record Rahab and Babylon among those who acknowledge me–Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush–and will say, ‘This one was born in Zion.'”

    Indeed, of Zion it will be said, “This one and that one were born in her, and the Most High himself will establish her.”

    The LORD will write in the register of the peoples: “This one was born in Zion.” Selah

    (Psalm 87:4-6)

    According to this Psalm the Gentile nations who acknowledge God will be treated as if they were native citizens of Zion (Jerusalem), the place God promised to one day permanently dwell and abundantly bless.

    Similarly, because of their second birth, the true citizenship of Paul and the Philippian church was in heaven, that is to say, the future redeemed Zion where heaven will dwell on this earth.

  254. on 05 Feb 2013 at 9:43 amWolfgang

    Sarah,

    Since you are back and have continued the discussion 🙂

    no real discussion from my end intended … only a short thought “thrown in” which already shows the point of that teaching to which reference was made to be wrong.

  255. on 05 Feb 2013 at 10:19 amJas

    Sheryl
    As long as you subject all your beliefs to proof and reproof with an open mind you will do well. There is not one of my beliefs set in stone yet and all are subject to a better understanding which I feel will only come from discussions .I know the bible forward and backward also subjecting myself to many versions of the greek,hebrew and aramaic ,Have read most of what been written about it in early christianity and judaism yet still have many questions that need answered.
    My beliefs may vary in many ways from most of those here but I have yet to find an advantage over them

  256. on 05 Feb 2013 at 10:58 amSheryl

    I looked up the various translations of Phil 3:20. I think this is an example of the wariness we should have about plucking verses out of context to support a view. I don’t know if you, Wolfgang, are using this verse to “prove” that we go to Heaven when we die — but at any rate, it seems obvious to me that Paul was comparing the worldly “citizens” with those who now derive their citizenship from Heaven where their Lord Jesus currently resides until he returns to us. I found it interesting that some of the translations say “commonwealth” or “conversation” in place of citizenship. This is what sets us apart from those who refuse to acknowledge their king, we are not of this world. I like to think believers are ambassadors for Christ our King; and await establishment of our home kingdom.

  257. on 05 Feb 2013 at 12:06 pmSarah

    Sheryl,

    This is what sets us apart from those who refuse to acknowledge their king, we are not of this world. I like to think believers are ambassadors for Christ our King; and await establishment of our home kingdom.

    That’s a great way of putting it. I like that!

  258. on 05 Feb 2013 at 3:13 pmWolfgang

    Sheryl,

    I don’t know if you, Wolfgang, are using this verse to “prove” that we go to Heaven when we die – …

    I always read here arguments about “going to heaven when we die”, and I would think that most of the time those writing such think of the traditional church denominational belief/doctrine of “going to heaven when you die WITHOUT the resurrection and prior to the day of the LORD” … which is NOT what I have ever promoted.

    I would say that there is no going to heaven when you die prior to the resurrection / coming of the Lord. But there is change and entering the presence of God when we die if we live at the time of the coming of the Lord (cp 1Co 15) or afterwards

    If you believe differently, continue to believe differently ifyou so desire …

  259. on 05 Feb 2013 at 5:11 pmtimothy

    Sarah and Sheryl,

    These scriptures 14—28 are the bases for the Doctrine in Ephesians,
    And reason for the Reproof of Philippians 3:20

    John 14: (nasb)
    16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

    17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

    GOD in Christ in you…Jesus was with them and now will be in them

    18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

    19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.

    GOD in Christ in you…

    20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

    GOD in Christ in you and you in Christ in GOD

    26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

    The soon following doctrine/reproof/correction scriptures

    27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

    28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    Christians have more because Jesus is now with the Father, and the father is greater than Jesus, because Jesus is not GOD

    Ephesians 2: (kjv) Doctrine
    4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

    Now that the Christian is in Christ he is seated with Christ in the heaven lies

    Philippians 3: (kjv) Reproof
    20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

    Colossians 3: (kjv) Correction
    1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

    Timothy

  260. on 05 Feb 2013 at 8:44 pmRay

    Paul wrote that he not only was willing to be absent from the body in order that he may be present with the Lord (II Cor 5:8) but he was also confident, and it wasn’t a vain confidence either. Also, he wasn’t the only one to hold such opinion or belief, for he was among those who walked by faith. (II Cor 5:7)

    Why is it some Christians seem to think that if someone believes that when they die they will be present with the Lord, that such a one must have been influenced by some kind of Greek ghost stories or fortune telling or whatever?

    Here’s a question to consider:

    If you were absent from the body and present with the Lord, and somebody was trying to conjer up your spirit to ask your opinion about something, and you knew this was going on, what would you do?

    a. Whatever the Lord told you to do.
    b. Nothing at all.

  261. on 05 Feb 2013 at 9:06 pmtimothy

    Ray,

    a. Whatever the Lord told you to do.

  

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